Tell me /tg/, how would you, from both a lore-wise and magic-wise P.O.V., try to make a Necromancer more in line of actual heroes?
Most of the time Necromancers are seen as dicks that want to become Liches, but how would you one that isn't a irredeemable cunt?
Gif. related is from Diablo (I didn't use the Heroes of The Storm image because screw it) and hence more /v/ related (and shows that Blizzard wasn't so bad back then), but it goes with what I try to say.
>Is all about balance between good and evil
>Is a priest of a dude that was the very first of his kin
>Is pragmatic and does not into temptation, hence why he and his kin didn't go bonkers and full corruption like the mage clans in the setting
>Acknowledges that life and death are all a natural cycle
>Is true neutral
>Hates being a pawn of others and tries to forge his own destiny
>Many of his goals align with those of the good guys, but as mentioned before, he's all about balance and shit, hence he'll oppose even the good guys if they get the advantage
>Still somewhat of a nice guy despite people looking at him like some creepy dude
I'd think of something more, but I'd like to hear out your takes on this.
>>45557787
Read Sabriel for a good way to have heroic necromancers.
Not this shit again
HEY ITS A NECROMANCER BUT GOOD is such a tired goddamn meme. The copypasta has gotten old and wasn't that interesting to begin with.
roll high charisma and bluff to get people to believe you're actually an earth wizard who specializes in calciumancy.
>>45557847
you're no fun
I"m mostly in agreement with >>45557847 however if you avoid trying to do the 'industrial necromancer' then we can talk.
I think the best way would be to have a necromancer who actually sticks to their job title; someone who talks to and with the dead. Use your ability to find out why a spirit is restless and why they can't pass on and do what you can to help them as well as stopping undead from rampaging and killing/eating everything in sight
>>45557822
Seems interesting.
Will go and read it.
>>45557847
Because all Necromancers should be EEEEEVIIIIIILLLLLL.
Stop it Asmodai. As if you didn't allow fun in your own Chapter.
>>45557883
>calciumancy
Good one.
>>45557847
>interesting characters is a meme
>>45557787
Read the Diamond and Wood sword series by Petromov.
>>45557787
It really depend what necromancy IS in your setting. Iirc, the default D&D stance is that necromancy is drawing on "negative energy", the stuff of pure evil, and is thus innately wicked. Historically, necromancy meant the summoning of ghosts from the underworld, in order to ask them for information, both things the ghost knew in life as well as secrets it has learnt since it's death. This is not necessarily an evil practise, if the ghost is treated honourably and appropriate offerings to the gods of death are made. This type of necromancer could be built in a game as a divination-focussed mage, with a sideline in conjuring (for summoning spectres to help in fights, etc).
>>45557961
It's not interesting, its entirely one dimensional and reactionary. It's about as interesting as good Drow rangers wielding scimitars, so much of a cliche it beggars reasonable tolerance.
The Diablo 2 necromancer is at least an interesting take. But take note that they aren't "good", just servants of the gods of death and protectors of the dead.
If necromancy in your setting is just making the dead move like puppets rather than pressing their eternal soul into servitude, there's no reason necromancy has to be evil.
>>45557961
>What if a Vampire was a hero?
>OMG FUCKING MARY SUE SHIT
>What if a Necromancer was a hero?
>OMG BEST IDEA EVEEERRR
>>45557917
Well I did thought about making a Necromancer that can talk with the death, but also raise them, yet not on a mass scale.
This would tie in with communicating with the death.
>Necromancer wants to raise have a undead warrior as a minion
>He communicates with the spirit of said warrior instead of simply raising him without his content into some mindless pawn
>If both sides come to a conclusion that is good for both of them, then they enter a pact in which both uphold their parts of it
>Necromancer then proceeds to raise the warrior as undead, but with free will and his mind intact
>>45557981
Gonna read this one too.
>>45557987
Right, but I was also thinking about other types of undead like skeletons and revenant type zombies (as in the original zombies that could have their minds and personalities untouched and unaltered)
>>45558015
In my case I was thinking about asking them if they'd join me of their own consent if I uphold my part of the pact and they their own. Less puppety, more sentient and stuff.
Let the dead rest, life is suffering. Bringing people back to do your bidding (even if you have good intentions) is evil.
>>45558080
But what if the dead person has something unfinished and it requires a form that has more "substance" to achieve it?
Hence a Necromancer would surely help the poor sod to settle unfinished things by enabling him to do so.
>>45558077
>undead
See to me, undead means voodoo, not necromancy. I can only see it working in a very religious context, since the human taboos around death and corpses are so strong and so ancient. Even then, you're talking more an accepted but ostracised practise, like the Agoris in India, or funeral directors for Zoroastrians. Good, sure, in it's way, but heroic? Seems a stretch.
Plus if you're talking about D&D, there's the whole "pure evil energy" thing that might mae such a thing as a good necromancer impossible. You should ask your DM about campaign relevant stuff like attitudes to the dead and necromancy, and see if you can't find a place in the game for the character you want to build.
>>45557847
This. I'm glad I don't play with obnoxious cunts who would play one either.
>>45558162
Hmmm.
Then I'd need to update on the whole raising the dead thing.
If I'd want to make a Necromancer heroic, then there should be really good justifications for him to raise the dead (as in the situation, time, reason and such).
For example the necromancer and a soldier battalion that was slaughtered by the enemy and who were protecting something that they were guarding. The Necromancer sees that they are restless due to the fact that they failed to get the job done, so he proposes to raise them so that they'd avenge themselves and get back that what they guarded.
After some time (because making a pact with a spirit takes some time), the Necromancer does the deed and raises them as revenants. The undead defeat the ones that killed them and secure the goods that they guarded. With that done, the Necromancer releases them from their physical forms and makes it look so as if they were wiped out while they protected the object.
Then makes an exit stage left.
Would that be a more heroic way to play a non-cunt-ish Necromancer?
>>45557787
>world is full of heroes and magic
>weird shit happens, an era of darkness begins where evil corrupts and rules the land
>heroes and magic fade away into legends and myth
>heroic necromancer revives the last great army that stood against evil in an attempt to bring back the golden age of the world by fighting back
>journey involves him raiding and capturing the graves of ancient heroes in order to resurrect generals for his army
>enemies have a theme of "Order" that powers their divine smiting powers as they try to maintain the status quo and maintain the grimdark world they have created as they battle the resurrected armies of heroes from ages past
>>45558789
That...would be actually really nice. Cool I may say.
>>45558443
This is what a necromancer apologist looks like. If you have to make this many excuses and grasp at straws this hard that should give you a clue that you're wrong.
My current character is a necromancer. He isn't exactly hero material, but he isn't evil either. He believes in the natural order and views the undead as an abomination.
He practices the necromantic arts for two reasons: to learn its strengths and weaknesses, and to better serve his mission.
Things like raising the dead or using necromancy in combat because evil necromancers rarely protect against it.
As a plot hook for later the DM and I have also discussed that he uses the powers of necromancy because he believes himself above corruption. Time will tell if that's the case.
>>45557787
Stay away from the Necromancer D&D class. Don't use physical undead to fight for you. Go back to the ancient definition of necromancy which deals with the souls of the dead.
Channel powerful souls into your body to enhance your own fighting abilities. Basically just play a Binder and fluff it as perfectly consensual.
One of my Favorite Characters I've ever made was a Good Necromancer.
Reshmier Scrimpt was the Middle Aged, Experienced, Ambitious Party Healer, Buffing Spells, and Minion Master Character. He had a bit more Endurance and Charisma than your average Wizard but his Intellect and Wisdom were about the Same.
His main goals were to reach Immortality, Cure Undeath, Do both without fucking up or using anyone's soul, and make the process so streamline and easy the entire would could be ever living. He was still a Hero though he didn't just focus on the big things, helping people and being polite were important to him too.
He was in a party of Teenagers so I got to play him as the most experienced party member. A bunch of Adventurers and Ex-Adventurers were once Party Members of his and I made the group sad a few times cause I pointed out how many dead corpses I recognized in this one Dungeon I knew very well but at least I knew what the traps were.
He'd only raise his Old Allies and Dead Innocents as Allies. He'd try and keep the Corpse true to their Character, so he wouldn't dress up farmers as Knights and ride off into Battle, He'd dig up trusted friends and equip them in their proper gear as the Farmers funded his Projects.
>>45557847
Why does everyone call it a Meme to have good Necromancers? It was one green text. Most Good Necromancers treat their undead fairly but the one in the Greentext used them as tools. Completely different man.
>>45558019
Why do people still think using the hur dur caps-lock Strawmen-making Greeentexts are funny?
Pic related.
>>45559757
You're just a cunt really. Using words like Apologist to make yah seem smarter, meanwhile we're all on /tg/
>>45560512
>Basically just play a Binder and fluff it as perfectly consensual.
Or Kamen Rider Ghost.
>>45560512
wouldnt that be like raping someone and saying 'your lewd body doesn't lie you are enjoying this'
>>45561254
Ask your ancestors to help you protect your village. They agree, bind their souls to your own prior to battle. Fight with their strength, unbind them. How's that like rape?
>>45561339
>do one thing that you usually need to force
>decide it was consensual
I dont care either way I just thought it was kinda funny
besides if you're going to do that you might as well just roll up a summoner synthesist while you're at it and call your eidolon your dead wife
>>45557917
I had an idea of a necromancer who wanted to build highly efficient machines out of skeletons, and his story arc involved either him being the successful founder of a new academic field (I called it "osteonics") or learning that having to use dead people far outweighed the benefits of what were essentially negative-energy powered windmills.
During the campaign he would ride around on a motorcycle made of skeletons.
>>45557822
Garth Nix right?
>>45558162
>Plus if you're talking about D&D, there's the whole "pure evil energy" thing that might mae such a thing as a good necromancer impossible
It does.
You can have a heroic necromancer, but the best they can become is Neutral.
>>45561474
You have the internet.
>looming unspecified giant threat on the horizon
>kingdom has been at peace for ages, all the good adventurers/heroes have long since retired or died off
>no one sees the signs but the wizards and they don't do shit about it
>one of them does
>reads in ye tales of olde about heroes rising to the occasion to fight a lich raising armies of undead
>itsperfect.jpg
>studies necromancy, learns the rites
>raises hordes of the dead on his adventures, bargaining with each of them for a loan of their bodies, for the greater good
>has them construct him a castle just within terrorizing distance of the most prototypical small country town
>waits for rumors and skeleton sightings to incite local teenagers with attitude and axes to grind to come confront this evil undead threat
>don't actually do any evil threating
>adventurers train themselves on his massive undead army
>finally they destroy his army, lay waste to his castle, and confront him
>calmly explains greater looming threat, need to fasttrack some adventurer types to be able to deal with it or else all is lost
>???
>profit
Is this retarded? It sounds cheesy as fuck to me but the good kind of cheesy.
>>45560659
Oh look. A wonderful necromancer clean and pure as the wind driven snow who only reanimates corpses for noble purposes. Let's all marvel in how good and creative he is.
>>45561956
This goes into well intentioned extremism.
>>45560659
>Desecrate bodies with unholy magic
>But it's okay, he's a really nice guy and helps people with his unholy abominations against nature!
>>45557847
>I don't like it, so it's meme.
Can we be done with this bullshit meme already?
>>45558077
For something like that, I think the "deathless" from the Book of Exalted Deeds may be more the flavor you're going for.
>>45563070
>unholy
Arcane magic is not divine magic
>descrate
That's a silly cultural thing.I'm not trying to get into relativism or anything, but a corpse is a fucking corpse.
>unholy
Again, powered by Arcane magic.
>abomination against nature
>implying nature is Good
Have the guy wear bone everything and try to spread it as a fashion trend. That way he looks modern and fashionable without being overly creepy.
>>45557787
Well, you can have them actually be necromancers and just fucking talk to the dead.
Because that's what necromancers do.
Necro Mancia. Death Divination.
Fucking Sybill Trelawney is more of a necromancer than this cuntwad.
Now, if you want to make a heroic necrourgist, then you can either go the consent route, the oddly specific form of animatory magic route, or the greater good route. For consent, you just nicely ask permission before doing it. For animation magic, you just need to come up with a reason why using skeletons is mechanically a wise enough choice to pursue it. For the greater good, just remember what The Operative said to Captain Reynolds. Be a dick who understands he's a dick but believes that dickery keeps people safe. Bit edgy, but it works in darker settings where that's a legitimate course of action.
>>45563771
>Arcane magic is not divine magic
Next you'll explain how summoning Fiends is also not unholy, or that it's only unholy if you commit atrocities for a dark god that gives you spells.
>silly cultural thing
In fantasy settings, those silly cultural things may have come about for a reason.
Also, confirmed for Chaotic misanthrope.
But hey, get down with your Chaotic evil self Frankenstein.
Delude yourself into believing what you do isn't an abhorrence because you use science rather than magic, or speak Draconic rather than Infernal when you do it.
>>45557787
Mortimer from the Dresden Files.
>>45559757
This is what a shitty meme apologist looks like.
>>45557787
There are so many goddamn stories on how to "good" necromancer, the problem is that often the mechanics don't support more nuanced forms of necromancy.
>>45557987
"Evil" energy.
The energies of entropy and decay aren't necessarily evil, though it's unpleasant. Gentle repose is an example of necromancy slowing down rot and decay. The problem I have is that most of the spells aren't that nuanced on the use of life-energy or the aforementioned aspects of existence. There are some cleric and Druid spells that allow you to transfer life-force offensively, defensively, and to heal, maybe ask to get some added to your list.
>>45557787
Kelemvor in Forgotten Realms is kinda similar (he views death as an orderly and organized process), but he loathes undead and would have them all destroyed, so perhaps that's not what you're looking for like the Priests of Rathma are.
>>45563070
Be honest now: if a guy warded off a Sauron level evil in such a way that he was clearly altruistic in his motives, would you honestly give a fuck if he animated corpses to do it?
If so, your priorities are seriously fucked up.
>>45566558
To be fair, if he did that in middle earth, he would become evil.
Absolute morality and all that junk.
Jesus was a necromancer.
>>45566772
Jesus could nec my romancer, if you know what I mean.
>>45566832
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuKV2Z3eYTY
Order of the death vigil from grim dawn did them right. Made them seem really reasonable and neutral/good
"Why send humans to do dangerous tasks when we can send a few undead"
>>45567266
I was expecting Rock Me Sexy Jesus, but that works too.
>>45557847
yep
I'd also throw in that there just isn't any basis for necromancers to be evil beyond "woooo eeeeeviiiiil," and "animating corpses is bad because they used to be peeeeeopleeeee."
It's honestly kind of silly. Just don't make any silly assumptions about necromancers and they can be heroic the same way as anyone else, although usually in kind of a mastermind animu glasses guy way rather than an in your face way.
Even if you want to suppose animating corpses = evil, you could have a necromancer who puts the dead to rest, and slays the living, for some altruistic / noble purpose, and uses necromancy to do it.
Even lichdom isn't hard to deal with if you want to reflavor it a bit. Lichdom in dnd and such tends to be evil because you have to sacrifice ten thousand virgins and stab your own mum right in the nads during a lunar eclipse or something. Just make it not involve gruesome murder and such and bam, it's now good/evil neutral, unless you want to define good and evil along some silly paladin esque bs about how being undead is inherently bad.
Second the garth nix book though, it's a very unique look at it, Although the people actually raising the dead are still pretty much all bad.
Maybe the necromancer wants to keep his pets around even after they die so he really only reanimates animals.
>>45557847
Good and Heroic aren't synonyms. It's easy to make a necromancer good. But making them heroic is trickier.
Okay I got one. Let's say there is an order of necromancers like the Mortalitasi in D&D. They hold two ideas as core tenets of their world view.
First, they believe in a version of the Law of Conservation of Energy and that Undead contain the dark energy from the spell that made them.
This means the negative energy is trapped, effectively increasing the proportion of positive free energy in the system. The order believes that with enough created undead, the surplus of positive energy will seep into the living and helping them to be the best versions of themselves.
In the mean time, the undead can act as a cheap labor force or be used as a weapon against the "unrestrained evils" like demons. These guys would probably worship Wee Jas and would mummify the dead since they may be used around the living.
>>45566772
Yeah, but the way he did it would make every other Necromancer jealous.
>>45557847
It's literally biblical. It's not a meme you edgelord chafedick, it's Western Culture. It's the evil necromancer that's the trite new stupidity. Speaking with the dead was a show of wisdom and a way to bring the living peace, and commanding the dead was something you did under the glory of a higher power in order to save the living from suffering in war and the like.
There is also this:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Millennial_King
>>45557787
Ever read Eragon?
Yeah yeah I know, shitty writing and even shittier plot.
But I recently read them and noticed that the Dragon Riders are nothing more than necromancers holding back.
They harness energy by stealing life force from the earth, or slain animals.
Not once did they ever steal life from a sentient being, but it is mentioned they could.
In fact, instead of wasting their magic killing a couple guys in a war, they could just as easily drain the life from the entire army and unleash massive spells at the same time.
Why even have death curses if you can suck the souls from your victims to feed your might?
>>45557787
Necromancy is actually comunication and forming contracts with the souls of the dead.
The soul may want a task to be carried out or magic power from the necromancer to aid it in its rebirth in the future.
A necromancer actually builds golems and inscribes them with magic runes so contracted souls can inhabit and use them as bodies.
The necromancers on the other side of law will however inscribe human or beastly remains thus disturbing the rest of the original souls of these bodies.
Itt. Necromancers are based around soul magic and constructs.
>>45575340
That's a nicer take on them.
>>45557787
Just make necromancy less evil in your settong and BAM, necromancer heroes.
Just dont go and make contrarian heroes, thats dumb.
"But my dear, am I not benevolent... good even... because of my necromancy? I don't call up hordes of horrors or sacrifice anyone to the dark gods. Heck, I don't even bother raising up people who wish NOT to be raised. All I am is a simple man with a healthy respect for life and a bit of a cheeky disposition towards death.
The dead are such wretched souls, moreso the ones stuck in this imperfect plane of existence. So is it really so bad that I commune with such people? That I give them that chance to once again feel the wonder of the material world? That I allow them the chance to put right their unfinished business?
And is it wrong, having made friends with these poor unliving, that I might call upon my friends for help when I am in need. A druid might command beasts or a general soldiers, yet it is only I who am shunned for my fellows. Why is this, I ask you?
A cleric may ask for, nay... DEMAND miracles from the gods. A berserker may tap into the primal forces of anger and hatred. A sorcerer may tear apart the very fabric of nature and bend the elements to his will. Yet it is the necromancer who is the villain?
I spend my time and effort to help those who, being beyond the grave cannot help themselves. I summon up spirits, not with dark magic, but by spending of my own life force. And yes, mayhaps a time or two I have called back my friends to help me fight.
But honestly, just because I fall under the banner of 'Necromancer'... am I really an evil person?"
>>45557787
Don't raise your neighbour's grandpa
Raise the assholes who just tried to kill you
People are iffy about people they cared about being used as puppets, but everyone can understand 'fuck the guy who tried to stab me in the eye. He's an ass'
Also cover them up with robes and gloves to avoid making the social faux-pas of bringing corpses into the market square
My Necromancer seeks to escape the natural order, not necessarily through lichdom but to become powerful enough to become/enter the void. He wants to become chaos and to do that he needs to master the forces of life and death. I could give a shit about becoming heroic or ethical considerations. Though I'm coming to find the store I play at enjoys having white knight clerics and Pallys around who thwart my ambitions.
I play a necromancer and he's an evil shit who burns down villages and raises everyone he kills to sack the next town (it's sort of an evil campaign). I feel like good necromancers would miss part of the fun, having hordes at your command is the point.
>>45557787
Get a friend to play martial class.
Make him your risen champion, you've talked and you have risen him from death per mutual agreement.
Focus on divination spells by way of the spirits.
Get buffs, ask gm to make them slightly stronger, but allow you to only cast them at your champion.
Merge that with a doctor profession, study dead bodies, look for cures, try to cure and help people.
Use spells like drain life/negative energy in interesting ways - for example transferring energy to your champion.
Martial Necromancer. Yes, you read that right. Martial. Necromancer.
His sword? Made of bone, possessed by spirits of vengeance, enchanted to the brim
His armor? Made of bone, possessed by spirits, with metal pieces for additional protection... And to place runes on them.
Uses left hand for magic, all his spells are spirit based(even magic missile can be fluffed to be actually made of spirits).
Have him seem slightly crazy, talking to invisible people and all. It is just spirits trying to give him advice. Usually obvious ones, or at wrong moments. Make spirits to be kinda autistic to each other, nitpicking, and arguing over retarded stuff - at the most inappropriate moments.
They also warn him of danger. Sometimes.
Easy to play him as in your face heroic character, with a quirk to boot.
>>45577549
Dammit, Paul, you are the reason people have a bad opinion of necromancers!
>>45557822
My Nigga.
>>45578005
That was after i had lured half their guards into the woods to ambush them with owl bear skeletons made to look like trees. These are things good necromancers will never have fun doing. Just join the dark side, we have cookies.
In my setting, the soul is actually taken to a 'judge' god who then transports the soul to a new human body, though the reincarnation can take many years or generations.
Necromancy rips the soul from this afterlife into its previous vessel, stopping the reincarnation cycle, so an undead which is slain cannot reenter the afterlife.
Normal undead are actually souls that are not powerful enough to take control of their own vessels, so are controlled by the necromancer.
In turn, a necromancer is seen as evil due to this inturruption of reincarnation, the control of the vessel, etc.
A good necromancer would have to be similar to a tragic hero, in which the only way to be good is to do evil deeds.
>>45579408
My problem with that is that is that soul-affecting magic is high-tier shit
Hell, Soul Bind (level 9) requires a "black sapphire of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature whose soul is to be bound" and that just gives you a rock with a soul in it. It stops ressurection and stuff like that. That's it.
Magic Jar which is about manipulating your own soul is 5th level
Animate Dead is a 3rd/4th level spell and takes 'a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.'
Someone who wants to trade in souls (or stop the reincarnation of a hero) shouldn't just need a low-mid level spell and cheap trinkets. Animating a skeleton shouldn't an easy way to rip souls from the afterlife
