> magic can be learnt with effort by anyone or at least by percents of the population
> magic offers great advantages with either no disadvantages or insignificant ones compared to the benefit magic gives
> magic is mostly resource effective, at least to the point that a given nation can provide the ingredients to most magic users on a stable basis
> magic users don't differ ridiculously in power levels to the point where a single very strong mage can overwhelm dozens and hundreds of just strong ones
> (the above all applies to DnD and many other settings with learnable magic)
Why don't mages rule all? Come on, such magic is a type technology, and one of the few lessons of history that nobody disputes is that technology is all. Monarchs and people of power should all be mages, having mages on your side should be the definitive factor of solving every conflict, economies managed by mages should outperform all others, training as many people as possible to be mages should be inevitable due to arms races, magic should be not just common, but the very absence of it unthinkable.
Seriously, DnD makes absolutely zero sense when it comes to wizards. They can do all most everyone else can better than they can for little effort just by studying hard at first, and they aren't literally everywhere? Nonsense.
pic unrelated
>>45550800
Most common mages don't get above 3rd-6th level or so. Also, DnD forgot to answer the #1 question about magic systems; Why haven't people possessing this power taken over the world yet?
>>45550800
Percentage is too low, people are lazy, or improbable circumstances.
Or many other reasons.
DND is many settings. The Baseline of FR- this isn't true. When you consider that magic is both divine and arcane, magical power and major nations are indivisible.
The Drow are a race-wide Theocracy.
Red-Wizards of Thay.
Cormyrian War Wizards.
Zhentarim Theocracy.
Amn's Cowled Wizards
The Shadovar's Shades.
Calimshan's Emperor was a wizard/rogue
Chessenta was ruled by a dragon for a while.
I'd have a harder time finding exceptions where a dude has power without supreme magical artillery at his disposal.
>>45551022
> 3rd-6th level or so
More than enough to unbalance anything and everything politics and economics wise.
>>45551196
> people are lazy
That's about the stupidest reason for anything I've ever heard.
>>45551209
And yet most people don't actually deal with magic in their daily lives, which is ridiculous.
>>45550800
That's why I make all the nobility in my game Sorcerers. Gives them access to magic, and explains why this one particular bloodline of people is in charge.
>>45551238
Most people don't deal with firearms on a daily basis.
They didn't deal with swords on a daily basis, either.
Even so most commoners will visit a cleric or drink a potion quite regularly in their lifetimes. Maybe even buy the occasional trinket from the town witch.
>>45550800
Just because anyone can THEORETICALLY learn magic does mean everyone CAN. Or at least doesn't mean they can do so effectively.
10 is an average stat for the masses, after all.
Without a talent or gift for wizardry, you'd get an army of wizards that can cast magic missile once a day.
Without a powerful bloodline and the willpower to control it, you can't have sorcerers.
Without supreme devotion and dedication, your clerics will barely manage to cure a cold.
>>45551306
Uh-huh. Mages don't use technology, they are technology. There isn't a reason as for would anyone not choose to become a wizard.
>>45551318
Motivation is a product of need, and need feeds into ability. If only high INT/WIS/CHA people are successful in life, as they have an overwhelming advantage over everyone else, then if a few generations people will work to get their stats up or go extinct. That's evolution for you.
>>45551137
This.
In d&d, you can expect to find few PC tier people, and those that are PC tier probably have their own agendas that only occasionally intersect with politics.
Even in FR, where magic is more widespread, you have to deal with the fact that lots of old magic also exists, and will be found and fought over. An individual mage that isn't a mary sue won't accomplish much without patronage and backing.
>>45551424
Gee, maybe not everyone is capable of using their mind to LITERALLY LEARN HOW TO RIP AND TEAR REALITY AND RESHAPE IT TO YOUR WHIM.
>>45551424
It's a feudal society. Most people are not successful in the modern western sense because they aren't even free.
When there are cultural norms saying that humble people should stay humble and leave the lofty shit to a few chosen ones, then that will be the overall state of things. Most mages and rulers will likely be satisfied with this, since it ensures stability and with minimal direct effort, letting them use their magic for more pressing, kingdom wide needs. So 99 percent of people will still be dirtfarmers.
>>45551465
Why the fuck not? Unless you are talking about literal retards, we are all members of the same species and generally possess equal capabilities.
>>45551429
> An individual mage that isn't a mary sue won't accomplish much without patronage and backing.
I wasn't talking about individuals, but of societies.
>>45551493
If we are talking society, then you can be sure as hell that many cottage industries necessary to the magical particularities exist, which don't necessarily require magical ability to succeed in.
Hell, most societies probably won't even be able to muster mages by simple virtue of being unable to feed people well enough to develop abnormally powerful minds.
>>45551488
Again, most people in industrialised countries are literate, were made literate, not because of humanism, but simply because it made them more valuable as workers for the relatively low price it took to educate them. Magery offers benefits far too great to ignore. It's not simply teaching someone to tend to the fields and shoot, it's to make someone summon ready food out of nowhere and be a walking artillery brigade.
> cultural norms
Bollocks. Need overwhelms any "culture" there might be.
> Most mages and rulers will likely be satisfied with this
You do realise that any kind of internal infighting should logically lead to all sides training new wizards of their own in an arms race to give themselves the crucial advantage? Again, magic is too great a tool and achievable for too low a price to be handwaved away.
>>45551424
Oh I get it. You mean why isn't LITERALLY everyone a wizard.
Same reason everyone IRL isn't a brain surgeon, rocket scientist, or nuclear physicist.
It's very mentally demanding. Years of study. Reagents are cost prohibitive. It takes far more than the average level range to actually outpace a fighter who just had to work out and bang hot ladies while you were fuckin' off in the ivory nerd tower with dead rats.
So yes. Only high int/wis/cha are successful, but they still need masses to subjugate. Just like the real world. You don't see wizard-Hitler exterminating nonarcanists in cloudkill chambers in concentration camps.
>>45551493
>equal capabilities
Most people didn't get over 5 and a half feet in height until the 20th century because of a lack of nutrition.
The same effect has been seen in IQs.
>>45551493
In D&D you need an INT score of at least 10 + spell level to cast a spell. Almost every person in the world has ability scores of 10 or 11--those are the human average. Therefore, and AVERAGE HUMAN can only cast up to a Magic Missile or Feather Fall at most, and even that takes them years and years of doing nothing but studying magic. Most people not only cannot learn and cast particularly useful magic spells, they cannot afford to study for the amount of time required to do so in the first place.
>>45551562
> Same reason everyone IRL isn't a brain surgeon, rocket scientist, or nuclear physicist.
Except that magery offers benefits far greater than mere knowledge. Again, it's not just knowing how to do things, but actually being able to do them in an incredibly cost-effective way. You act as if magic is comparable to education. It isn't. It gives all for no price at all. It's like comparing bronze knives with tanks.
>>45551587
IQ is a charlatan's tool and a good way to tell an idiot who has not a clue as to what he's talking about. Have a good day.
Actually, I was under the impression that in the DnD world, the 'world' has ended numerous times. There are people who hit the very high levels.
And then make a mistake that makes the Fallout game settings look like a paradise. That all those dungeons and denizens are the survivors are people who built shelters but couldn't quite make it.
>>45551632
>a good way to tell an idiot who has not a clue as to what he's talking about.
It surely is
>>45551632
Have you looked at the age charts for wizards? It takes DECADES of study to become a level 1 wizard. That is not cost-effective.
And during those decades, who will be tending the farms to produce the food to feed these nations?
>>45551632
Sure.
It's still nigh impossible to learn enough magic for these benefits.
Like, you're saying I'm the one comparing magic to education and that it's not. You're right.
It's more difficult, more expensive, limited by magical reagents and requires intrinsic talent that the vast majority of people do not have and will never have.
The only exception to this would be the Netherese Empire, which still had haves and have-nots up until they abused magic to it's breaking point and everything was almost fucked up forever because Karsus wanted even more unlimited cosmic power.
>>45551632
>being able to do things in an incredibly cost-effective way
>study for 15 years of your life
>meditate 1 hour in the morning while reading from an incredibly expensive book
>"LOOK MA, THREE TIMES A DAY I CAN HIT SOMETHING AS HARD AS FRANK CAN WITH HIS SLING! ....Except I have really shitty range. I'M NOT OBSOLETED BY BOWS, DAMNIT!"
>"LOOK MA, I CAN LIGHT A FIRE THREE TIMES A DAY! THIS BOOK WORTH MORE THAN OUR FARM SURE WAS A GOOD INVESTMENT INSTEAD OF BUYING A FEW TORCHES!"
Arcane magic is a fucking meme for the masses.
>Why don't mages rule all?
Gods/Overgods/Dragons/whatever don't want them to. As powerful as mages are compared to yon average peasant, 99% of them are pretty low in the overall pecking order.
>>45551754
A level 1 commoner is weaker than a level 1 warrior.
A level 1 warrior is weaker than a level 1 fighter.
A level 1 fighter is weaker than a level 6 fighter.
A level 6 fighter is weaker than a level 6 wizard.
A level 6 wizard is weaker than a level 20 wizard.
A level 20 wizard is weaker than a demigod.
A demigod is weaker than a god.
And in the Forgotten Realms, a god is weaker than the overgod.
It's a hell of a pecking order, alright.
>>45551704
> That is not cost-effective.
In the bigger picture? Of fucking course it is, why the fuck wouldn't it be? Magic offers too much of an evolutionary advantage to pass. Again, natural selection at play.
>>45551707
> It's still nigh impossible to learn enough magic for these benefits.
See, you keep moving the goalposts. First it was like education, now it requires some almost nonexistent talent, then you'll say only people with the smart gene can be wizards… I don't want to play this game. If you want to win an internet argument so hard as to act dishonest, then whatever, have it your way, but don't drag me into it.
>>45551714
> >study for 15 years of your life
Like in real life for a significant portion of the population? Oh, the horror of practical impossibility.
> actually comparing magic to bows
Oh, so you're moving the goalposts too. Whatever.
>>45551802
>Of fucking course it is, why the fuck wouldn't it be?
Oh, now I get it. I'm sorry for not realizing that you're retarded.
>>45551754
> Gods/Overgods/Dragons/whatever don't want them to.
[citation needed]
> 99% of them are pretty low in the overall pecking order
Are you aware of the concept of emergent properties?
>>45551802
>medieval people
>studying for 15 years
Nigger those people learned to read if they were lucky. In 1700, balls deep into the Renaissance, only 40% of English men were literate.
Education doesn't do ANYTHING for most people, until you have a service or skills-based society. If you're relying on agriculture or pastoralism, there isn't any need at all to teach your people how to read and write, and in fact, there's plenty of reasons NOT to.
>>45551815
Considering that most gods aren't gods of magic, it would be a pretty good guess to say that especially in settings where worshippers are important, they want to hang onto theirs. And plenty of other powerful beings have decided interest in not letting humans become more powerful.
And the latter means dick all in a setting where gods and other incredibly powerful beings take interest.
>>45551802
Yeah, I moved the goalposts because I didn't understand what you were getting at. Doesn't change the underlying laws of FR have been around since like the 80's, man.
Magic on an industrial scale is impossible. The mage-gene absolutely exists if you look at sorcerers. You need to be genius-level to even cast 4th level spells, so to be an effective low-level wizard you need to have a baseline statistic nearly 40% higher than average. That's just mechanics. You can train for enough years (read: an entire career) to hit level 8 and you'd barely have second circle spells if you started at 10 int, the average.
But no one's forcing you to play the setting if you're gonna be that autistic about it. There are other settings. You can homebrew shit.
No one cares.
>>45551866
> Education doesn't do ANYTHING for most people
It's not that it wasn't obvious before, but now I can safely say that you are clinically stupid. Get euthanasia.
> until you have a service or skills-based society
It's not like society develops under material circumstances and following objective reasons.
>>45551894
Pure speculation.
> inb4 tu quoque
True, but I'm not trying to make logic fit circumstances.
>>45551921
> Doesn't change the underlying laws of FR have been around since like the 80's, man.
I cast Death of the Author. No saving throw is allowed.
> The mage-gene absolutely exists if you look at sorcerers.
Equivocation.
> You need to be genius-level to even cast 4th level spells
And people today are smarter than their ancestors thousands of years ago despite them not really changing in terms of intelligence genetics-wise that much. Need breeds motivation and feeds into ability.
> average
See above.
>>45551976
>Death of the Author
Cool SJW strategy, man.
>>45551209
Daily reminder that in Faerun, even small villages with 6,340 gp of assets are ruled by high-level wizards.
>Maeruhal (Village): Conventional; AL NG; 200 gp limit; Assets 6,340 gp; Population 693
>Authority Figures: Mayor Rinlin Pulgro (NG male human evoker 14/Halruaan elder 2).
>Important Characters: Kelvrim Errowd (LN male human diviner 11/Halruaan elder 1), Dobyo Flurrig (NG male human abjurer 12/Halruaan elder 2), Inyda Lauz (LG female human diviner 12/Halruaan elder 4), and Drindos Bez-Mont (N male human evoker 13/Halruaan elder 2)
Halruaan Elder is a full casting prestige class, and a really good one at that.
>>45551209
>>45552041
>Yaulazna (Hamlet): Conventional; AL LE; 30,000 gp limit; Assets 9,000,000 gp; Population varies (about 180), averages 300
>Authority Figures: Yargo (LE male lightfoot halfling rogue 9/Great Sea corsair 8), the Pirate King of Yaulazna. Important Characters: Zuusted Nimderval (NE male human conjurer 20), Yargo’s right-hand man
>Yargo has a powerful friend—a renegade wizard from Halruaa named Zuusted Nimderval (NE male human conjurer 20), who has developed a variation on the plane shift spell that actually causes the entire shantytown to vanish to another plane temporarily.
Here we have a pirate hamlet whose ruler's right-hand man is a level 20 conjurer wizard who Plane Shifts the whole "shantytown" to another plane.
>>45552036
You're scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments so hard, you made a giant hole in it.
>>45552076
He's right, though. You can't just say "hurrr wut da author ment doesnt mater cuz i say dis is wut he ment".
The author is the one writing the work. In game terms, unless you homebrew, that is the system you are using and the laws and world they make is the structure in which you operate in. You can't just say that the shit they intended and meant doesn't matter. That's utterly fucking retarded.
>>45550800
You've already put more thought into this than the people who developed the settings did.
>>45552103
Ah, whatever, it's useless to argue with this stance, it's self-contained and is begging the question. I wish you got cancer and died, you awful person.
>>45551238
>That's about the stupidest reason for anything I've ever heard.
Except that it's a good reason.
Everyone with hands and eyes can be a great artist with practice, but few people even learn how to sketch properly. Why should this differ in a fantasy world?
Lets look at this from a couple of different standpoints, looking to the views of the original creators, namely, Gygax and friends. There are a few factors to consider here.
1. Great warriors are just as powerful [ideally] as great mages at higher levels, and thus the game should not be dominated at high level play by mages alone.
2. The game takes place in a medieval society, where the average person may not even know how to read. Even in an idealized setting, they likely only know reading, writing, and arithmetic, and little else. Hardly great wizard material. Even those people who rolled high enough on their nonheroic ability scores to quality for magic training, likely do not receive it, due to magic being occultic, dominated by secretive esoteric orders or private guilds, and just plain not being able to afford it. A baker's with 17 INT may well die not knowing a single cantrip simply because SOME ONE must man the ovens.
3. They use to. Most D&D settings are presumed to be post-apocalyptic, set in the ruins of a far superior magical society that fell some time in the past, leaving only ruins, dungeons, and plenty of treasure and artifacts behind. The average setting doesn't have Detect Evil police states or Create Food Traps purely because they use to, in the high old days of the High Elves, or during the rule of Good King John, or before Man came, but some disaster happened, and the old magic was lost, and what was is only just now being recovered.
I never got this
If magic was remotely possible to learn like anything else everybody and their mother would be an archmage
>>45552162
You're probably a Yank, so your opinion doesn't matter either way, so fuck off.
>>45552177
> Gygax
was a hack.
1. Nonsense.
2. Already answered several times.
3. No reason for magic to not resurface.
>>45552124
How's it useless to argue and begging any question?
Let's say I write a book that says "Mages live in a tower." You can't go "what he REALLY means is that the intellectual few live isolated from people and it stands for the oppression these evil mages dispense from their lofty and arrogant heights". Not unless I meant that to be the meaning behind that sentence. I could just mean that mages live in a fucking tower. I could also mean exactly the other thing and have it be symbolic, but MY intent as the author is what matters, not yours. It begs no questions, but rather I have to question why you think what the author said means absolutely nothing when you are referring to their work. How do you, some random person, have a better grasp on the author's intent than the guy who actually wrote it?
Same as if we're playing in a game setting and they have specific rules for mages and whatnot that do not allow mages to be in huge masses. Why? Doesn't matter why, that's the way the universe works. And if you do not like it, that's fine. That's why people homebrew and have house rules and make their own settings so they can have games in settings they want to explore and play in. That's a lot different than what you're saying where you just try to swipe out any meaning behind what the author means when THEY are the ones who made the work and not you.
The author's intent matters if you are referring to their world. If the guys who write DnD say mages are rare because of X, then mages are rare because of X. Homebrew your own setting or piss off if you don't like it, don't sit here giving pseudo-intellectual sophistry as your arguments as to why the author must be wrong and you know better than them about the fake world they made.
>>45552177
>D&D
Cancer and retarded as hell
At least LOTR had the excuse of "only supernatural beings can use magic"
>>45552182
In real world, with access to competent teachers, comprehensive education system and all the knowledge in the world, there are still people who struggle with algebra which doesn't even try to eat your brain alive or corrode holes into reality. And fantasy worlds generally don't have any of those to help you.
>>45552236
> You can't go "what he REALLY means is
I can't. I go "he's stupid and has no idea what he's talking about." Learn the difference, it could save your life, though you are lost either way.
>>45552206
Nah, you're just retarded.
>>45552206
1. Not nonsense, if there's men who can kill dragons with their bare hands, then it makes sense that magi alone wouldn't dominate high level play.
3. It does resurface, its just your campaign takes place during the resurfacing.
>>45552262
Except that's wrong and you're retarded. He's the creator and the supreme authority on the setting, therefore he does, in fact, know what he's talking about.
>>45550800
I guess to balance things out, you have to make magic really gimped or up non-magic to herculean levels to make things more even.
>>45552295
1. But mages in DnD do dominate high level play. 3.5 fighters are, what, tier 4 out of 6?
3. Doesn't change my argument.
>>45552296
> He's the creator and the supreme authority on the setting
And what if he's an idiot? What then? I bet you didn't think about that, did you, you stupid cunt?
>>45552262
But how can you say he's stupid and retarded? It's a fictional world. It'd be like if you judged the real world and went "god, this is so fucking stupid that there's poor people and not everyone chooses to be a genius or get involved in government for the power, who wrote this bullshit?"
It's a fake world. The author is god for that setting. If they say that this is how the world works and functions, then that's how it works and functions. If I play chess I can't go "bawwww my king cnt move out of check by movin' like a knight its not fair and so stupid". Everything has restrictions. You're bitching and whining and throwing around sophistry to try to justify why a fictional world should have unrestrained mages running around with unlimited resources, time, and power. Without taking into consideration who runs everything else in the world, how limited magical items may be, how secretive the mages are, how much power they can realistically command, etc.
It's absurd. You have clearly put no thought into it and don't seem to grasp why such a thing would not be feasible for a variety of reasons. And no amount of "BUT LOST KNOWLEDGE SHOULD INSTANTLY COME BACK AND EVERYONE SHOULD BE A MAGE WITH ACCESS TO ALL THE HIGHEST LEVEL SHIT AT ALL TIMES WITH NO REGARD FOR WHO'S DOING THE DAILY DIRTY WORK!" is gonna change that. Either you are trolling, or you're terminally retarded on a scale I have seen very rarely.
>>45552349
>And what if he's an idiot? What then?
Irrelevant. Don't like it, use some other setting.
>>45552379
> But how can you say he's stupid and retarded?
If you can't see how one can judge a man stupid and retarded by reading what he wrote, then you're stupid and retarded too.
>>45552396
Don't fucking try to derail the issue, you abominable spawn of Yankistan.
>>45552349
1. Not in 1e, 2e, 4e, or 5e.
3. Why the fuck not?
>>45552438
1. 1 and 4 yes, the rest no.
3. Because I wasn't talking about specific circumstances, but characteristics of magic and the patterns it ought to follow.
>>45552422
>Don't fucking try to derail the issue, you abominable spawn of Yankistan.
Stop being so wrong, then. When it comes to his setting, the author is right. It doesn't matter how mentally or morally deficient or just plain WRONG he is, he's still right. And I'm not a yank, sheepfucker.
>>45552422
>If you can't see how one can judge a man stupid and retarded by reading what he wrote, then you're stupid and retarded too.
It's a fictional world of imagination. If he says "mages aren't common" you have no basis to say that it SHOULD be some other way. It's his fictional world. He's the one who makes the rules as to how it works. And given how you ignored all of my other points, I'm assuming you're either trolling or you've lost and you're just trying to enact some damage control because you realize how utterly foolish you look.
>>45552182
Neither do I, which is why I and my entire family have multiple PhD's.
>>45550800
I have a setting I'm working on where magic is divided into three distinct subtypes.
>Alchemy
Though the other two call it a magic, alchemists insist that what they do is science. Alchemy can be learned and in many ways functions similarly to how it does in FMA (though I didn't have it in mind when formulating it, it just made sense). According to legend, powerful alchemists can even break down matter on the subatomic level. Because of their scientific approach, alchemy is the most well-understood of the three schools and the Alchemist College is the most open to teaching all comers. Consequently though, alchemy is viewed as "easy mode" for magic and alchemists are often not taken seriously, with the exception of the field top practitioners.
>Witches (and warlocks)
Witches are secretive and reclusive, and while they like to keep up with the goings on in the realm, they rarely take any direct action. Witch magic fills a support role, buffing (blessing) allies or debuffing (cursing) enemies, rather than using direct combat magic. Witch spells are also time-consuming to cast, requiring the performing of rituals, which also puts the witch at risk from enemy attack, although they are also very potent. A witch that the enemy doesn't know about can be a game-changer. Witches can also maintain altars to further improve the potency of their spells, or keep certain spells ready to use on the fly, although they'll have to return periodically to maintain the altar. Although witch magic can be learned, most witches prefer to keep the art within tight-knit covens. Here and there though are those willing to teach.
>>45552463
> When it comes to his setting, the author is right?
Even if he's an idiot? I couldn't disregard an opinion any more than I just disregarded yours.
>>45552467
> It's a fictional world of imagination.
And you're a very real cretin. I repeat, if you are unable to tell anything about an author after reading a book he wrote, then you're a stupid fucking degenerate.
>>45552472
Magic is not fucking education, you quadruple imbecile.
>>45552492
>Magic is not fucking education, you quadruple imbecile.
In what way?
>>45552461
You realize that if we're ignoring system, magic is purely fluff and it can mean anything you fucking want right?
If we're talking Dungeons and Dragons, then the typical answers are
1. Because martials exist and are [or are supposed to be] badass. Charles Atlas is supposed to be a credible rival to Merlin at high level play, whether he is in practice or not.
2. Because the setting is medieval and not everyone is trained as a mage for various economic reasons.
3. Because the setting is post-apoc and the Golden Days of Magic are over, and its up to you, the would-be Archmage, to rebuild them.
Anything beyond that is either details to your particular setting, or details to a different system. Both of which are completely arbitrary.
>>45552491
>Mages
Arguably the most powerful, but smallest in number. Mages possess the ability to create new matter from nothing, a process which is still not understood, despite the alchemists' best efforts. However, mages are born, not made. It is an inherent talent, rather than a skill that can be learned, and even if you're born with it, there's no guarantee that the Mages' Guild will accept you for training. Most mages, if they don't use and develop their powers, will have them atrophy and they will live mundane lives. But, every now and then, for better or worse a self-taught "feral" (as the guild calls them) mage crops up.
>>45552500
>>45552492
Actually D&D Wizard magic is explicitly education in every edition of the game. The early editions explain that before a noviate can learn even a single incantation he has to become thoroughly versed in high level mathematics, philosophy, and numerous other fields of education that prep the mind for magic use. Even then, learning a single spell even from a book, takes days or weeks of practice and training, because magic is an art, not a science, and thus exact specifics vary from wizard to wizard.
>>45552492
>Even if he's an idiot? I couldn't disregard an opinion any more than I just disregarded yours.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Now kill yourself, retard.
Yes, OP, you're right, a strict communistic society that forces magical education on everybody would be superior and would have absolutely no faults or chaos to them, and would be incredibly easy to achieve in resources, time, and ability.
![raw[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/yCvOsQD.gif "raw[1].gif")
>>45552530
You cut that out, I'm watchin' this.
>>45552492
>Magic is not fucking education, you quadruple imbecile.
Actually, he has a valid point. In most settings where magic is learned, those who master it have devoted their entire lives to doing so and spent years, if not decades, learning. Just because it can be learned doesn't mean everyone has the aptitude for it, or is willing to put in the time and effort. Still more will likely only learn a few basic things to help them in their day-to-day life. Not everyone who picks up a magic book will have the drive or feel the need to become a master battlemage.
>>45552500
Because magic gives you incomparably more than education does, you gleeful shit muncher.
1. Magic still has more practical utility, ergo it should win out.
2. Magic ruins mediaeval economics like ten black brothers ruin your mum's nether region every night.
3. Irrelevant to my point. Murder yourself.
>>45552527
See above, especially the part about murdering yourself.
>>45552530
Yes, wizard society is going to be communism-lite, like Star Trek is, since abundance of resources and material capabilities leaves society no other real choice.
>>45552492
>And you're a very real cretin. I repeat, if you are unable to tell anything about an author after reading a book he wrote, then you're a stupid fucking degenerate.
This isn't about the author. I don't care if Gygax was literally shitting his pants and reaching in to throw it at a wall and that's how he came up with DnD. Whether or not he's dumb has no bearing on whether or not he is the one who determines (or rather the people currently running DnD) the rules, restrictions, and boundaries of the setting.
Are you trying to throw in ad hominems about the creator now to justify why he's wrong? Even if he was a babbling fool, he'd still be RIGHT within his own fictional world that he made. He is the only authority on it because it is his creation. You are free to homebrew it, use another setting, or make house rules. But you have zero justification to say that his intent in his own fictional world is wrong and that your logic is superior. Your logic has no bearing in a world where logic has no bearing because it's fictional, involves shit like magic, etc.
Or am I free to take what you're writing here to be an admission that you give up and admit you're wrong because that makes more sense to ME and your authorial intent has absolutely zero bearing on things?
>>45552555
> This isn't about the author.
You're moving the goalposts again. I'm tired. I'm going home. Fuck off. Have a good day. Wanker.
>>45552546
> those who master it have devoted their entire lives to doing so and spent years, if not decades, learning
And? People today almost universally spend a decade in school, and magic offers far more benefits for what it takes to learn it. You're comparing knowing how to use a knife to actually having a tank one can drive.
>>45552552
Are there free mage-handjobs?
>>45552552
1. People are not perfectly rational agents with infinite resources.
2. Magic is neither infinite nor easy, in no edition of the game is it possible to train out of a population enough wizards to sustain that population. Magic does not ruin medieval economics, because wizards themselves are subject to supply and demand. Also, there are races who do have enough magical resources and a high enough average intelligence to manage post-scarcity societies. They're called the Outer Planes. What you're asking about literally exists in the setting itself.
>>45552563
>moving the goalposts when this entire discussion was about whether or not the author had sole right to dictate what goes on in his fictional world
>LOL EVERY1 IS A YANK FUCK WLOLOLOWLOWLEOELDK UR A FGT XDDDDDD UR A LE KEK NETHER REGIONS WANKER IM RITE UR WRONG LE UR MOVING GOALPOSTS N LE DETH OF THE AUTHOR LLELELELELELELELELLELEL XD
Jesus fucking Christ, you're one asspained little bitch. But thanks for finally admitting you're wrong. Funny how your sophistry gets blown to shit in the face of actual logic and reason, isn't it?
>>45552580
There are hand of Vecna, ehh, what do they call them? fleshlight? Whatever.
>>45552583
1. You do not understand how evolution works, ergo you're stupid and dumb and a smelly idiot.
2. It's resource-effective in a way that makes it incomparably advantageous to obtain and use, hence your argument is discredited and your right to be called a thinking human being invalidated.
>>45552610
> this entire discussion was about whether or not the author had sole right to dictate what goes on in his fictional world
My head hurts from your stupid and discussion-derailing dishonest. Go away.
>>45552206
Not a yank and not sure what difference it would make. My statement is correct, is it not?
>>45552660
It's not and it made you sound like a bloody Yank. You should refrain from using the internet and making any statements on any matter at all until you contemplate upon your mistake and change your ways.
>>45552675
Every single statement you've made in this thread is objectively wrong, sheepfucker. Now go kill yourself.
>>45552684
> wanting to win an internet argument so hard he gets himself argued into making ridiculous statements under the pain of admitting that he's a fucking idiot who should have been aborted at eighth month of pregnancy
You're so stupid I can make stupid trees grow on your shit and beat rocks with sticks from those trees and the rocks would become dumber.
>>45552715
Nah, you're just retarded.
>>45550800
>it's an Autistic OP episode
![The Wire Season 3 Episode 10 - Reformation.avi_snapshot_23.54_[2015.11.26_22.55.18].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wUPmLYd.jpg "The Wire Season 3 Episode 10 - Reformation.avi_snapshot_23.54_[2015.11.26_22.55.18].jpg")
>>45552724
i'll fucking shank you m8
>>45552618
>Evolution in a game about gods who created life and where magical forces rule the world.
>Thinking evolution means 'the strongest most powerful things tend to get promoted always no matter what'
>>45552746
You'll miss. What on account of you're being retarded and all.
>>45552750
Evolution is a universal principle, you uneducated Yank barbarian.
>>45552756
That comeback is so awful, I got turned inside out trying to vomit out my entire being.
>>45552756
You fool! You've made the lesser-known classic blunder of misplacing an apostrophe in a criticism of someone's intelligence!
Though you're kinda works.
>>45552776
> Though you're kinda works.
I vomited so hard I got turned inside out back into proper position. Exterminate yourself immediately.
>>45552768
And I've seen equivalently overwrought expressions of disgust in chat rooms full of angsty teens.
>>45550800
Because the reality of the situation is that mages are assholes and don't fucking teach shit to everybody.
Anyone can learn politics, anyone can becaome clever at wordbplay, but politicians have money to begin with and don't want anyone ELSE having the power they have.
It's basi human nature.
Also, magic only works like that in a vacuum, i.e. white-room theorycrafting models. The world determines the availability and ease to learn magic and the GM determines the world.
>>45552768
Jesus Christ you're fucking retarded, just kill yourself. You should get the fuck out of /tg/ and never come back. Stay on reddit.
>>45552768
>Evolution is a universal principle, you uneducated Yank barbarian.
Not if the gods don't want it to be. Genesis isn't compatible with modern science, you silly papist.
>>45550800
the same reason that scientists and engineers don't run the united states government.
>>45552790
That's stupid. You're stupid. Suffocate yourself.
>>45552792I am, in fact, having fun making all of you triggered to hell and back and back to hell again.
>>45552795
Can the gods change the laws of mathematics? Not without making the world uninhabitable for PCs. Same with evolution, it's too global a principle to just cancel without fucking up literally everything in existence. Drown yourself.
>>45551209
>Zhentarim Theocracy.
This is a 3e only thing, actually.
Prior to that the Zhents are basically just a semi-legitimate trading network with underhanded means and buy magical support like everyone else. Think the Mafia; they do illegal shit and then find their legitimate business concerns.
>Amn's Cowled Wizards
These guys were weird; there was never very many of them, but it's more like they managed to make all magic THEY didn't take a cut out of illegal. They were basically a monopolistic arcane guild.
>Calimshan's Emperor was a wizard/rogue
Not inherent to the position of Syl-Pasha. You're right about Calimshan in prior editions being magic-heavy though; it was treated very much like the early Middle-East in that it was wealthy as fuck and had a much higher percentage of wealthy or educated individuals which meant a higher percentage of wizards because to get the education needed to be a wizard you kinda needed to be able to either pay for the education (which a simple farmer couldn't) or have enough money to afford an apprenticeship.
>>45552809
But mages aren't scientists and engineers, they're walking artillery at their low and one-man armies at their high. Decapitate yourself.
>>45552810
>Can the gods change the laws of mathematics? Not without making the world uninhabitable for PCs. Same with evolution, it's too global a principle to just cancel without fucking up literally everything in existence. Drown yourself.
They can, because they're gods. It doesn't make the world uninhabitable for PCs, because they're gods. Same with evolution, because they're gods.
>>45552824
> They can, because they're gods.
Seriously, go and bash your fucking brain surrogate out of your useless skull.
It's like I deliberately chose to take a retard shower with this thread.
>>45551632
>shitting on IQ
>p-pattern recognition and mental acuity aren't related
Low IQ pseudo intellectual detected
>>45550800
>d20 settings
Shit. But to try and rationalize for you.
Level 20 characters are rare. They don't crop up once a life time, they crop up once some hundred years. A lot of campaigns will have world threatening final bosses not touch epic, and the greatest adventurer in any given age probably doesn't have the experience pool to reach these high levels.
Keeping this in mind, we can work out some things. Wizards at least, are supposed to be relatively uncommon in the population due to the difficulty of study. Though perhaps every person who can muster a 10 in INT can become a wizard with enough effort, most randoms in a world don't hit 14, they won't hit 20 at by the same age which is probably an expected prerequisite in order to have a chance at being a wizard of legend.
If a wizard king god only has to hit say, level 10 to dominate most of his world, it's an upward climb that probably brings a lot of danger since most experience is only achieved through trial, and a huge commitment on his own part to study and train in the mystical arts.
Among the wizards that do hit 10, most of them probably don't have a reason to want to control the vast majority of the population. Hitting 10 probably involves some compelling goal that focuses them on magic instead of politics. For the ones that do, well, that's why so many settings have one wizard king somewhere.
>>45550800
Wizard skills is learned through book-learning right?
Even given the generally early Renaissance nature of most D&D settings (they're usually VERY Late Medeival at the least, but show a higher degree of technological and economic development and diversity) it leaves a VERY small percentage of the population able to afford or take the time necessary to become a Wizard.
Go look up using Google and such the percentage of literate and well-read individuals who weren't clergy in the 14th and 15th Centuries and you'll see what I mean.
>>45552810
It's stupid. It's also the facts.
Let's put it this way. You have phenomenal world wrecking power. Who do you give that power to?
Your friends?
Your family?
The people you like?
Who will they teach?
Their friends?
Those guys you kinda saw down the street one day?
Who will those guys teach?
Some stranger?
Your enemies?
THIS is why people who know magic don't teach anyone and everyone magic.
READ (don't watch) The Magicians by Les Grossman. At least have an idea of what would really happen if magic was readily available.
>>45552840
>It's like I deliberately chose to take a retard shower with this thread.
I'm sure you're too retarded to deliberately act this much like a retard.
>>45552841
Apologise to your parents and remove yourself.
>>45552855
That's even dumber. Do go drown yourself, you utter degenerate.
>>45552840
You did. You baited, now you're gettign angry about your bait. that's POHR.
>>45551932
Education is useless to a pseudo medieval peasant, unless it's about crop rotation and how to build a house.
You work on the farm from age 8 until death, because if you don't you're wasting time earning nothing.
You're a dumb fuck mate.
>>45552847
> Level 20 characters are rare
Doesn't need to be that high. Emergent properties and labour division do all the work necessary.
>>45552852
Read the fucking thread before replying, you blasted fucking cretin.
>>45552823
so is a scientist with resources and prep time. just because you can bend reality to your will does mean you're the greatest leader (or even have the interest.)
Keep in mind that in your average campaign world, most npcs don't reach beyond 7 or so (unless they are narrative central) which you can still send in the swat team to stop.
>>45552865
Except its the truth, which makes you even more stupid for not recognizing it.
You're one of those people who can't grasp the concept of how powerful god is: "Can God make a rock so big e can't lift it? Yes, and then he lifts it anyways because he's God."
>>45552870
I never b8ed, and it's not my fault angry retards chose to assault this thread like Yanks on Walmart.
>>45552876
That's begging the question. If I beat you with stupid sticks, the sticks would become dumber. Stupid.
>>45552883
> so is a scientist with resources and prep time
You're even dumber than the lad above. A few more of you and a physical paradox of infinite stupidity will occur and end the universe.
>>45552890
> "Can God make a rock so big e can't lift it? Yes, and then he lifts it anyways because he's God."
Just a couple more. Never liked this world any way.
OP is either a ridiculous troll and/or someone who gets so easily riled he cannot be persuaded of even talked to given how vehement his responses are to literally anything at all anyone says.
In one case he's baiting, in another case he's not looking for an actual discussion, just people to tell him he's right.
Hide the thread and move on.
He's either baiting for replies
Have you guys tried to not give Virt this much attention?
>>45552916
>I'm incapable of basic logic, so everyone else must be wrong
This is what you sound like. Just kill yourself already.
>>45552916
>LOL I TROLL U
ebin meme
>>45552865
Jesus Christ I can smell your fat folds from here just by your autistic conviction and manner of typing.
>has thought of stupid idea while, at first I was going to say showering, but let's be real, sitting on his ass at his desk
>Presents stupid idea
>People explain why he's retarded
>KILL YOURSELF LOL, "CREATIVE" INSULTS XDDDD XDDDDD XDDD, L-LOGICAL FALACY, MY LOW IQ DOSEN'T MEAN ANYTHING, I'M SMART XXDDD
It's sad. Lose weight, shave, understand your intellectual inferiority and take a shower.
>>45552916
no scientists aren't summoning demons or meteors, but they are the equivalent of what a 1st through 3rd level wizard would be capable of, and what their mentality is.
>>45552942
Dude, at least make your sage post a sage when you reply to a troll so his thread will die faster.
>>45552922
I am obviously right and everyone else is just as obviously wrong and stupid and smelly, they're just so triggered by this point they can't come to acknowledge this without becoming so ashamed of their reality-defying stupidity as to commit sudoku on the spot.
>>45552942
My IQ's actually >130, but what kind of loser brags of their IQ on the internet?
>>45552949
I'm a fucking scientist and the highest I can put myself is a level 2 fighter with only fist as a proficiency weapon.
>>45552977
Ah, I mistook this as a genuine discussion, my mistake. good bye.
Is virt back without his trip or something? What the fuck is this thread
>>45552977
>PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>45552977
Actually, you're just wrong.
>>45552995
Who the fuck is virt? I bet he isn't at all comparable with me in terms of intelligence, since I actually did just troll hard everyone in this thread with you not even realising this.
>>45553005
Wow, you're pathetic, end yourself, m8.
>>45553021
>I'M SOOOOOO EDGY I CAN SHAVE WITH MY BARE HANDS!
18 int. Stats are something really difficult in the real world, it means the peak of humans, translates to games like those of oWoD also means int iq (yes, just for comparison) of 180-200. Now, from those people (who are the only actual ones to be able to cast level 9 spells), how many HD the chance to get to the actual level, or to be a wizard to start with? There are waaaaaaay to many factors. Dont autist and remember that over 90‰ of NPCs have 10 for all stats or worse. Fuck you.
>>45553021
>actually believing your own bullshit is trolling
Not really, you just to attention of bored people. Not hard to do.
http://strawpoll.me/6878839
>>45553031
That's some mighty butthurt you have going on there, lad.
>>45553043
> merely pretending
>tfw you can't sage anymore
i'll bump your shitty thread to lament, defensive faggot
It's time for OP's performance review, everyone! Rate on the following criteria out of 10, unless you find a one or two-word descriptor more appropriate.
>Appearance: Presentation capacity to entice. Well-made baits are known to flutter or sparkle against the current of discussion.
>Texture: The quality that invites any takers to give another contemplative or ill-advised chew. Some tastes are drawn to the silky and discreet, and others the mealy and chore to digest.
>Hook: A measure of the tenacity both in the lure and that it inspires in the caught. Almost universally barbed.
>Flavor: Nebulous in measurable effect, but has the deepest appeal to character and preferences. Some prefer a taste that can be forgotten upon escaping the hook, while others enjoy a taste that lingers almost intrusively.
Average the numbers, tack on any descriptors as the remainder.
>>45553056
I'm pretty sure you can still sage. It's just invisible.
>>45553075
Appearance: 10
Texture: 10
Hook: 10
Flavour: 10
t. OP
>>45552578
Pic related.
The point is that just because people CAN spend decades earning multiple PHDs, that doesn't mean most people want or need to. Likewise, just because anyone CAN learn to become an archmage, that doesn't mean they want or need to. Sure, for a select few, magic is a passion. They study it, become an expert in it, devote their lives to it. The same way some people have a passion for astronomy or politics or zoology. But most people just learn enough to make their daily lives easier. So they can refill their cup without getting up, or light their fireplace without dicking around with kindling and actually BUILDING a fire. IRL, most people learn just enough about automotive mechanics to change their oil, but only a few decide to become experts in it, and still fewer master it to a level where they can design new cars.
Here's another example. Doctors and lawyers make huge amounts of money (if they're good at what they do), so why doesn't EVERYONE become a doctor or lawyer? Or a better way to phrase it might be, for what reasons might someone choose not to become a doctor or lawyer, despite the benefits?
>>45553117
>forgot pic. derp
>>45553075
Actually, all I'm doing is trying to figure out how stupid OP is for thinking /tg/ is hard to trll.
>>45553117
> The point is that just because people CAN spend decades earning multiple PHDs, that doesn't mean most people want or need to.
You're so stupid I sat there in my chair looking at the monitor and wept.
It's not "spend ten years in school and know things", it's "spend thirty years in wizard tower and fly, summon dragons, cure cancers and make your mum proud of you for once, you fucking degenerate." Advantages the options offer you are simply incompatible, as I've been repeating for stupid smelly idiots' benefit.
>>45553053
>BEHOLD MY MIGHTY BAIT THAT ISN'T REPOSTED REGULARLY! OH WAIT, NEVER MIND, WE HAVE THIS THREAD WEEKLY.
>>45553149
> thinking /tg/ is hard to trll
This is fucking 4chin. I've been browsing this site for eight years and not once has it stopped setting records in stupidity. Don't think I put you at the level of sapient animals, because you most certainly aren't that.
Nice projection, though.
>>45553177
And yet you're still triggered.
>>45553156
Except that's not how it works. It's easy to gloss over how stupid the premise is, but that doesn't make your premise any less stupid or wrong.
>>45553184
> that's not how it works
[citation needed]
>>45553182
>BEHOLD MY ABILITY TO READ MINDS OVER THE INTERNET!
>>45553203
Sure. Read the rules of D&D and it makes it very clear that's how it doesn't work at all. I'm not going to bother writing a citation when the rule books already are the citation you're looking for.
>>45552855
>READ (don't watch) The Magicians by Les Grossman. At least have an idea of what would really happen if magic was readily available.
I have, the book is so bad that the main plot can be maintained if you remove all elements of magic; as it was written by a bunch of yanks the primary focus of the novel involves the fact that the main character gets drunk and has sex with another girl, and then his (ex) girlfriend has revenge sex before getting herself tragically killed (but not for realises)
It's the sort of book where the protagonists go on a month long cocaine, ecstasy and alcohol bender and then cut it off cold turkey with no problems. And then all the fucking furry section, characters having sex with fawns, characters turning into animals to have sex, random orgies without any possibility of condoms.
Oh, and to cap it all the magic system is literally handwaved, at no point is there any indication of what the character's capabilities as mages are, one chapter they have difficulty moving a pebble, then we timeskip and suddenly they're flying to the fucking moon. I wish I was making this up.
Your book series is shit, your taste is shit and you're probably a furry.
inb4 "I was only pretending to be retarded"
>>45553206
You think that you're anywhere near complicated enough to not be an open and mostly textless book? That's almost cute, like those retard children who try to do normal things and fail at them and you don't know whether to kindly laugh with them or shed a tear for them. You would do better with your life if you donated all your organs to people who actually need them.
>>45553219
Death of the author. Gygax was a hack and had no idea how science works.
>>45553228
Yet that's exactly how magic would work the way you describe it on your OP. You make the grade, you get phenomenal cosmic power to do watever you want, along with everyne else with henomenal cosmic power, you dont, you get to be a shit hedgewitch or a mundane.
Your entire premise, neatly packaged into a book you obviously read. See how simple that was to explain to you?
>>45552422
>calling someone a Yankee
>to offend them
Who let these sister-fucking hill bandits have computers? Go back to the coal mines where you belong.
>>45553309
That's not me, I'd have called you a stupid cunt at four times over the text of that length.
>>45553234
>Death of the author. Gygax was a hack and had no idea how science works.
There you go talking about Gygax again. We're talking about why more people in these settings don't up and become walking nukes, not why all players don't play wizards, and the fact remains, just like any other learned skill, it isn't practical for everyone.
I think I see what your problem is, though. You're completely self-centered, to the point that other people aren't even real to you. They're NPCs. When you type your posts here, you don't think you're arguing with real people. Well, obviously you know that, but on a more subconscious level, that isn't how you process people. You're not just the protagonist of your story, you're the only real character in it. But anyway, if you were a DnD character, you would be a wizard, because wizards are just fucking awesome, and you are so wrapped up in yourself that you can't fathom why anyone would ever harbor anything resembling a conflicting opinion. You probably also can't wrap your head around why anyone would vote for anyone other than your candidate or why anyone would take any major in college but yours because it's so obvious the best option.
And with that realization, I'm done here. The problem is that you don't understand my point, it's that you're hardwired to not accept it. God himself could walk into your room, tell you that you're wrong, explain why, explain that in the first instant he constructed the universe specifically so that you would be wrong about this, and you would call him a moron and tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about.
>>45553234
>Death of the author. Gygax was a hack and had no idea how science works.
So the rules are retarded even though thy prove you wrong despite you claiming by the rules that's how it should work? Sorry, you either are using the rules to prove your point and failing to read those rules means you've disproven your own premise, or you're bypassing the rules you have read and are instead using white room theorycrafting and make believe to prove your point, which depends on the rules you haven't read to prove you right.
Sorry, you fail at arguing your point either way and must now fall back to your usual argument, which is namecalling, i.e. calling other people stupid rather than actually proving your point.
>>45550800
>Seriously, DnD makes absolutely zero sense when it comes to wizards. They can do all most everyone else can better than they can for little effort just by studying hard at first, and they aren't literally everywhere? Nonsense.
It makes zero sense in regards to anything. On one hand you have shit like Goodberry and Light, yet everyone is still starving and using lamps and torches.
Seriously.
F-U-C-K FR.
>>45553309
I'm sorry what, I'm not OP, I just fucking hate that book.
As a result of that I shall keep bashing it;
The entire magic system is absolutely arbitrary, "you get phenomenal cosmic power" means absolutely nothing, there is no logical application at any point of the set of known spells to aid the characters in what they're doing.
We get the characters learning spells to increase their running speed and strengthen their muscles after they have sex as foxes to run to the south pole. You'd think that the first time they get into a fight, or think they're getting into a fight they might use the same fucking spells to move faster or feel less pain? Nope. They have a spell that makes a laser beam, one that moves a rock at high velocity; five chapters later they're wondering why they have no offensive spells.
At no point does the system build on itself, it's not even a system it's just a disjointed set of "what did the author think was cool today". It's not phenomenal cosmic power, a quarter of a book is just a mage flying around watching things happen and failing to interact with them.
And I reiterate, the plot of the books doesnt change if you remove the entire notion of the characters being mages. Hell the first book would have been better if that had happened and the resolution was that somebody snuck a gun into the otherwise unsoiled "darker and edgier" narnia. At least that would have been more interesting than the "too pure for this world" 90s startrek fanfiction sacrifice bullshit.
>>45553397
What stops you from becoming a doctor, Anon? We could use them in various places.
>>45553362
But my point remains proven.
>>45553412
I'm not arguing the premise or readability of the book, but I will point out that the magicians, once graduated from Brakesbills or wherever, are literally told, "Sure, go out, rule the word, use your magic to do whatever you want, the only people who are going to get in your way and be able to cope with you are other magicians anyways, so go for it."
And they do. Its stated outright that at any given time there are a half dozen people running the world and magically controlling governments, but in the end, it really doesn't matter. Because realistically, it wouldn't. Even when you prove magic....there isn't anything they can do to stop you. mindwipe them and they go about their everyday lives. Heck, there are probably spells to literally write people out of existence in that world. And they probably get used constantly.
End result? Status quo because the magicians are all in control already and no mundane can do anything about it.
>>45553434
>LOOKIT MEEEEE, I'M A GREAT TROLL!!!!
>>45553415
>What stops you from becoming a doctor, Anon? We could use them in various places.
I'm not sure I understand.
>>45552059
>A level 20 caster taking orders from a fucking multi-classed rogue
Faerun is retarded.
>>45553528
This was a lot less problematic in 2e and 1e when half of the more powerful characters did not have official stats and not every town regardless of size was filled with one level 15+ character ruling it and his five buddies of equal level.
3e might as well have been called "the numbers bloat edition.
>>45552925
When did he stop being a tripfag?
>>45553463
Except it's just stated as a component of the background and never actually means shit. and for all the "do whatever you want" we're then told that "offensive spells are bad and the magic police will come for you". So clearly they dont do what the fuck they want, there is still some convoluted magical law system.
Comparatively a level 8 wizard in most d&d settings requires a group of adventures to bring them to justice.
>>45553528
In AD&D and 2e, the rogue could kill the caster without the caster ever managing to cast a high level spell at them. Hell, so could fighters. It was only after 3.5 that casters truly became invincible.
>>45553554
The point is that it IS part of the background and therefore valid for purposes of eample of what goes on. And the law system is not codified, it literally comes down to "if you get us all noticed, we'll get some guys together axe you so be subtle, stupid."
>>45553552
He got btfo'd a few months ago, now just posts his bullshit as anon.
>>45553554
>Comparatively a level 8 wizard in 3.pf requires a group of adventures to bring them to justice.
Get it right, anon.
In every other version of D&D, no matter the setting, a caster by themselves was not an army.
>>45553666
It is also a case, that you are ignoring, that the fluff was written before charop and minmaxers got ahold of the system.
The lore is written as insetting, bereft of the player mechanics, which is why pc bands can actually accomplish anything in 3.pf.
>>45550800
Because D&D isn't supposed to make sense.
Remember undead evolution rules? if a skeleton got enough kills they would turn into a zombie. If a flying vampire gets level drained, they turn into a wight -> lose their flying abilities -> take fall damage.
The first D&D editions didn't care about realism or making sense. The games were just a collection of ideas that Gygax thought were fun. The whole 'setting has to make sense' was a thing introduced in later editions, but those editions were too lazy to change the things from earlier editions that didn't make sense.
>>45553647
>In AD&D and 2e, the rogue could kill the caster without the caster ever managing to cast a high level spell at them.
No way in hell. Their sneak attack only functioned once, and the damage bonus it gave was so piddly it's laughable. As long as the wizard got 1 spell off (and for that, all he needed is for the rogue to miss once, or to roll really good initiative once), he would have won.
Also, AD&D spells got even more batshit than 3.5 ones.
>>45553711
I think you're misinterpreting which book he's talking about, which was The Magicians, not D&D.
>>45550800
Because teaching someone how to use a pike/sword/whatever and outfit him is much more cost-efficient than training and oufitting a single mage is.
Also because only a minority actually have the intellect to become a decent mage (10 intelligence being the average, 14 being the minimum necessary).
>>45553760
Considering that wizards had ABYSMAL thac0 and hp, and that thief's stealth was perfect, and that spells took ROUNDS to go off, rather than 1?
Poison alone
>>45553760
High level Wizards were usually harder to find given how goddamn long it took to level up AS one. Leveling up at all in 2e and earlier was quite an ordeal, leveling up as a Wizard was a damn nightmare.
Also, Wizards were even more made out of tissue paper then they are now.
>>45553711
If you're talking 3.5, it still doesn't matter. The fact is that the average person has 10 or 11 INT, meaning after 2-6 years they can cast 1st level spells and a few cantrips. That's not going to be world shattering. With the smartest people being powerful caster, most people are going to take other options just because there's no pint in taking the supposedly supreme option if they can't reach actual supremacy. There is literally no point to being a 20th level caster when you can only cast 4th level spells - you're wasting your time.
>>45553760
That's not what prevents castign in AD&D and 2ed.
Initiative is what prevents casters from winning. when you literally have to take 18 seconds to cast a 3rd level spell, when moving 120' and throwing three darts will take the rogue the same amount of time, and if one hits you lose your spell, initiative changes the dynamic of spellcasting a lot.
People forget that initiative in AD&D and 2nd ed fucked over casters badly. Fighters and rogues always acted before the caster's good spells ever went off.
>>45553760
Oh cool, a newfriend who's not remotely familiar with AD&D!
In 1e, if you get surprise on the enemy with a bow, that niggaz dead. Depending on margin of surprise, you can get up to 18 shots off at the mage -- before he can do ANYTHING. After that, you're very likely to beat his inits if you use a fast weapon -- its very difficult for a mage to cast even a speed factor 1 spell before you can hit him and foil his shit.
In short, don't talk about stuff you have no clue about.
>>45553812
>>45553819
God it's nice talking about the auld school with folks on here.
I don't mind that 3e brought in so many new faces to the industry and hobby, but I find it mildly annoying that they think 3e is somehow the golden standard and that every edition of D&D should be judged by it when so far as of 5e the majority of systems of D&D are rather unlike each other excepting that they all use the same types of dice.
It's like some asswipe thinking Eminem literally invented rap simply because it was the first thing THEY heard in the genre.
>>45553845
Seriously. I have a friend who participates in my OSR campaigns, but he's always pining for more of what he was introduced to (3e), and has made it out to be the most perfect RPG of all time (and is genuinely pissed off at how everyone else DMs or plays it, has hated every character I or my wife played in it for the past 8 years, etc.). Its just as well that I'm an OSR fiend and only run it nowadays, for both my sanity and his.
Nostalgia + 3e = AHHHHH
>>45553819
True story: A friend was DMing a super-low-level party in 1e; they were constantly being buggered (figuratively) by a wizard, who seemed impossibly powerful, like 10-15th level (he was actually 5th level, but that was like 3 levels higher than them, and he made good spell-use decisions).
They encountered this dude in a dungeon, and were pants-pissing, scared out of their skulls but managed to get two whole rounds of surprise on him, and they unloaded every ranged attack available to them on him -- bows, crossbows, spears, javelins, darts, throwing axes, slings, a few spells, daggers (he was killed in the first round, but they didn't realize it and just repeated their first round actions)... He was a greasy stain on the floor, basically.
>>45551976
>And people today are smarter than their ancestors thousands of years ago
"What is 'NO', Alex?"
>>45554056
I think the only time I really lost my temper with a 3e nostalgia player was one day when I fellow I played with played a game of 5e with my group at my invitation because everyone else he played with tired of his shit and I otherwise liked the fellow and felt a bit sorry that nobody would play with him.
After whining for half a session, some goddamn check or other came up that we houseruled and he asked where in the book that exact rule was. We told him we had to make it up, which all of us being 2e vets we were all perfectly okay with.
>"So it's not official then?"
>"No, it's a houserule done to speed things up and keep the plot moving, seeing as it's not an important roll."
>"But if it's not official it's not an actual rule."
>"I suppose that's true, but also when we play games like this we generally wait for our balls to drop and hit puberty before sitting down at the table, and apparently you forgot to do that and yet here you are anyway."
I felt pretty bad for snapping at him but he DID shut the fuck up finally and he's been much better at playing and opening his mind to new ideas since then.
>>45552865
Why is everyone jumping on this obvious bait?
>>45554912
The reason wizards had golems and dungeons and zombies and all that shit back in the day because they were wet paper bags even with the right gear.
>>45550800
Eh i make every NPC and PC know at least 2 cantrips from either sorc, cleric or wizard lists.
