>that guy who wants to make a non-religious or atheist Paladin
Can you be any more autistic? Just play a fucking fighter
>>45234273
fighter can't fall
>>45234273
Fighter ain't got no spells.
Eh, my paladin is "religious" but it's a setting without recognizable divine powers, and for that matter, without real gods.
Magic has two sides to it. "Arcane" is one, "Divine" is the other (different names in-setting). Same source energy , different rituals.
>>45234273
>non-religious
>Paladin
The two are mutually exclusive, so tell him to eat shit.
>>45234544
I was under the impression that 4e and 5e Paladins are more like Zealots, dedicating themselves to THE CAUSE more than a faith.
>>45234273
Just worship Fedoran, God of Aethism.
>>45234570
They are. There's an oath around KING AND COUNTRY instead of divine factors. Plus, paladins have been generalized into "magic-using martials with a code of honor" in, well, general.
Been there, done that, it was fun.
Paladin who pretended to be religious and lived in a Theocratic society (Mendev, Pathfinder)
Decent person, utterly lacking in faith due to having never heard 'the call' the way he thought other Paladins did and absurdly high expectations on his shoulders.
So he struggled onwards and turns out you don't need to believe in god.
If god believes in you.
>>45234570
You are correct.
At the same time, the gods in (most) DnD settings are explicitly real, so the fact that a paladin is associated with one is largely irrelevant.
Any magic-granting entity (include self) could be used to create a paladin. The designation of paladin just has religious organization implications.
Not strictly necessary, mechanically, or even in the lore.
There's no mechanics saying that a god explicitly has to grant powers and 4e even states that once the spark of divine power is given, it can't be taken away. i.e. there is no falling.
>>45234273
Except fighters are inferior in every way to paladins.
>>45234570
This is even true in 3.5 in general, Paladins get their power from the forces of Law and Good, not any god they may follow.
They DO get power from the gods in FR, which is why a lot of people assume that is the rule, but FR is the exception in this case, it just happens to be a popular exception.
>>45234594
>followers suffer a substantial charisma penalty
>>45234273
>implying
>>45234273
>non-religious paladin
well i know of o-
>>45234458
My friend of justice!
>>45234273
>can you be any more autistic
you made this thread to bitch about it you friendless loser.
>>45234273
So a 5e paladin?
>>45234273
I'm not familiar with every ttrpg, but the ones I've played that had Paladins didn't require that they worship any deity or be particularly religious.
Also, Fighters are general-purpose warriors while Paladins are specifically anti-evil warriors. They're totally separate classes with different playstyles.
>>45234273
So Anima Paladins
>>45234273
Aw, c'mon. Let him have his fun. We all gotta get our rocks off somehow.
Besides, Atheism *is* a religion. Or at least it is *now.* There's no reason he can't play it straight and actually make a compelling story out of it... except for the fact that he's probably being autistic about it just like you said. Right.
>>45234273
In 1e/2e Paladin had nothing to do with having a God. They stood outside of religious powers.
It looks to me like 5e is the same thing.
In effect, even if a Paladin had a 'God' he worshiped the Paladin's CAUSE is far more important. In service to that cause he would stand against the God he chose to follow.
However, the Atheist part of your post is just stupid. Nobody in a 'standard' D&D setting is going to be an atheist. That is just stupid.
Believe that the God's are scum? Sure. Believe that the God's are not worthy of worship and are just meddling powerful beings? No problem. Believe that they don't exist? That is just dumb.
>>45234273
>you can literally meet gods walking around the street
>"yeah no they don't exist, OH MY NON EXISTANT GODS HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE BE SO BLIND"
>>45239021
What kind of setting is this where gods are walking around the street?
Though to be fair that's how my character met Baron Samedi.
>>45239053
forgotten realms...
kidding, it's a figure of speech, as in "gods are obviously real"
>>45238929
>In 1e/2e Paladin had nothing to do with having a God
Not exactly accurate.
Paladins were required to serve a religious institution or alignment, in 1e and 2e.
Basic they had to serve clrerical orders, but clerical orders didn't have to serve gods.
But to say "nothing to do with it?" Well, since virtually every order ever described in any setting other than Dark Sun is a religious one, that seems a bit of a stretch. Let's say "wasn't necessarily required to serve a god."
>>45234273
Sliver Flaaaaaaaame motherfucker.
>people assuming an athiest in D&D means they don't believe the gods exist
I'm pretty sure it would mean that they don't follow a god.
>>45239228
Or that they don't recognize a cosmic right to god-hood, and regard them as being of immense and unjust influence.
>>45234273
Fighter? Pisha, play a rogue who lies about being a paladin and UMD's miracles from his god.
>>45234273
Aren't paladins devoted to the alignment of Lawful Good and not specifically to a deity?
>>45234273
I politely remind such players that the gods *really totally do exist* and, in the event that they proclaim atheist or antireligious paladin status... I WILL pick a patron to grant his powers, and said patron *will* be worse than anything in the book.
>>45239174
Pretty accurate I think. Just looked through the 1e and 2e PHB, didn't see it. The only requirement is the be LG.
Looked through the complete paladin handbook as well, didn't see it there either.
Sure, plenty of stuff to show that they could or would. But nothing that I saw indicated a requirement.
>>45239666
Correct.
>>45234639
In 4e it can be taken away. It just requires being such a cunt to your patron God that you gain their attention and they'll just strip your powers. This is the background for a Fighter PP. But classic herp derp you fall for stupid bullshit doesn't exist.
But you are right. All non Invoker divine characters get their powers from a ritual that is usually, but not always, preformed by a religious organization. The divine character is then more or less beholden to said organization, who usually worship a god making most Paladins God worshipers but there are possible exceptions.
>>45239021
Generally speaking, "Atheist" means doesn't worship a god but believes they are real.
Alternatively, you can just think the gods are just REALLY power ful outsiders and are no more "holy" than a really big talking elemental.
>>45240188
Fuck, I meant within the context of a fantasy setting obviously.
>>45234544
Bullshit. Even as far back as 1e a paladin can be unaffiliated with any religion and serve the Greater Lawful Good alone.
>>45239956
Nice to know I was right for once. Clerics have to be devoted to a deity though.. So no Godless Clerics.
>>45240188
Pretty sure the word is Agnostic
>>45239934
2e:
>A paladin must tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves.
Must serve a religious institution, specifically.
1e
>whatever charitable religious institution (not a clerical player character) of lawful good alignment the paladin selects
1e does not specifically require service to a religious order. 2e does.
>>45240230
That might be what it means to you, but I have never heard it used that way.
>>45240594
The Complete Paladin Handbook clarifies this.
>>45238929
Atheism in DnD or similar systems, would be more along the lines of, Gods aren't actual gods, but really powerful spellcasters who masquerade as gods, and in Pathfinder they have the Test of the Starstone to become a God so for some that would be how they view gods.
>>45241109
You can choose to define it that way. But when I have heard of people talking about 'atheism' within D&D (like) games it has always been in regards to someone who does not believe that Gods exist.
Not that they aren't worthy of worship or are just powerful beings (both are common enough). But that they don't exist.
Yours is the first time I have seen that (new) definition applied to the topic.
>>45234594
>not worshipping Ath
>>45234520
what's wrong with playing a fighty warlock?
I was always under the impression that Clerics were the only class that had to have a deity, and that Paladins just had to adhere to a strict code of honor, divinely inspired or not, so they have something to potentially fall from. Is this not the case?
>>45234273
Communist Paladin ?
>>45241851
'Mother Russia' or 'comrade citizen' type?
>>45241851
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/3g24o8/5e_the_oath_of_the_common_man_finally_the/
>>45239053
Bahamut likes to wander around in human form tbqh faM
>>45241929
"Comrade citizen" type, if there is not a Mother Russia equivalent in the setting.
>>45241396
You're exactly right. Clerics were designed as the class representing Knights Templar and other religious knightly orders, whereas the Paladin class was based on the Twelve Peers and certain knights of the round table [mainly Galahad]. While all of those knights were pious, the paladin class itself was not designed around piety, but around chivalry, and upholding the standards of righteousness.
An atheist in a fantasy setting makes no sense, but an 'atheist', that is, someone who doesn't believe the gods are worthy of worship, or who is simply ambivalent to them, makes perfect sense.
A considerable number of wizards hold this near-Gnostic belief in the nature of the 'gods', and there is a faction in Planescape dedicated to the concept.
TLDR: OP is a berk whose never read the AD&D books.
>>45239053
>He doesn't know about Fizban the Fabulous
>>45241958
this
>>45234273
could be worse, he could want to make a non-religious clericlike me
>>45239827
you ARE a shitty dm and you *should* fucking read the source books.
>>45241345
The character's core backstory is the ancestor-worshipping order they're in, who also happen to persecute the shit out of any (non-"divine"-alike) magic users, including warlocks. So, nothing wrong with a fighty warlock, it just didn't fit what I was making.
>>45241209
A God has more implications than just power. The moment you decide the worshipped are all just powerful masqueraders, then there is no divinity. You are an Athiest in all regards then.
>>45243094
Naw, you're just being a cunt.
>>45234273
>a Dwarven paladin who gets his powers from his ancestors'
This guy pretty much gets it. >>45243187
>>45234632
Underrated post.
On a related note, would you guys allow a player to run a Paladin who doesn't consider himself a Paladin? Like, just a fighter who fights for the underdog or something, but his moral compass is strong and a god has entrusted him with powers. He doesn't recognize this, and the god knows he probably never will, but it's fine.
>>45244462
Yes I played that, it was mostly a guy who wanted to become a paladin in a world were only a few can achieve it.
He became one as part of the ending of campaign when he and dwarf did a sucide charge against demons.
>>45244462
What about a character who renounces his god, tries to live as if that god didn't exist, but can't help himself from doing right by that god's teachings time and time again? Maybe he has a history with corrupt/overbearing/smelly followers of that god, so he left the church, but try as he might, when he's really pressed he can't bring himself to go against what he learned was right. And since, at his core, he's a true believer, he has divine powers that help him.
Or... How about a god who is so nervous about losing followers (and thus losing godhood?) that he hands out powers like candy? Your character could be a true believer, but he could just as easily be a conniving bastard who just does the bare minimum of prayer so he can be really strong.
Spinoff setting: The gods are all like the example above, and 99% of people worship as many as possible to get all kinds of powers. Your character would be somebody who decided everybody was going soft because they were relying on divine powers, so he doesn't pray, and struggles for decades until he becomes as tough as a divine warrior just through sheer determination.
>>45234273
You can play Atheist paladin.
Have him be a Redditer who's martyr is Christoper Hitchens
>>45244850
I thought the player wanted to do something not just yell at people behind his shield.
Ripped straight from the TV tropes page for the Ebberon Campaign setting:
Genre Savvy: Forges Of War shows that scholars in the setting are at least partially aware of Divine Magic's reliance on Clap Your Hands If You Believe, and attempts were made during the last war to train clerics devoted to national ideals rather than religion to function as healers and replaces the services of House Jorasco. It didn't work.
IMHO, Atheist Paladin just sounds like a great joke character. Its like the Spoony one said:
What's a Paladin?
>>45238745
>Atheism is a religion
u focking wot m8?
Paladin of electricity is my old favorite. Attack the tallest enemy first, fight priority goes to people wearing metal, rubber is his kryptonite.
"Fall to your knees heathen; before the awesome power of electricity, it is useless to be a resistor."
>>45234273
you can have an atheist paladin
their belief is in reality asserting itself over magic. like how necrons don't use the warp, but they have an understanding of reality so deep that it looks like magic
Couldn't it be argued that his character could believe in the concept of good itself, and strive to commit acts of good so that the world is a better place?
I mean really, you just have to replace their deity with more or less karma, and prayer with a less deliberate, innate 'tap into the good in the universe' kind of skill?
I could see a paladin being essentially a knight dedicated to a higher cause. If there isn't religion there is always ideology (Paladin of Communism), racial supremacists (Allowing humans into the sacred glade is Elven genocide), protecting the interests of some special figure (Empress' Guard), or maybe enforcing some ethical philosophical viewpoint (the pushiest vegans you've ever met).
Basically any cause which is unselfish and which transcends them.
>>45234273
Crown oath is for that.
Especially great in a magocracy.
>>45234594
His name is fucking Aalewis? Thats my new dickbag assistant to the BBEG right there
>>45239053
Exalted has some of that.
>>45234458
>>45237930
Kamen Rider ain't no paladin
He's basically an avatar of himself, lesser deity of good and protection
>>45252791
Kamen Rider would be a monk class
>>45239053
My party met Fharlanghn walking around the street once.
We didn't know he was him, we just saw this guy walk to us and ask for direction.
We direct him towards the closest town and he thanked us giving us a magic compass that always pointed towards our current objective
>>45234273
Admit this never happened and you just need a reason to induce a religious debate outside of the appropriate board and complain about fedoras.
>>45238929
You can believe that they aren't actually gods.
>>45250110
Paladins of Charlemagne.
>>45249596
If it has zealots that preach,it's a religion.
Actually, that gives me an idea. What about agnostic paladins? As in "I don't know what makes the universe tick, and we shouldn't fuck with it". They show up to stop people from abusing the power of the cosmos and try to understand it from a scientific prospective rather than a devotional one.
>>45253027
Ask a theologian and he'll tell you just how wrong you are.
>>45234570
I've got a 4e Paladin sitting about who's powered by two things. Her sincere desire to be a true knight (She's common born) and a childhood promise.
When she was a child she was playing Knights with her friends and got lost. She found another girl crying in the forest, sad that she didn't have a knight any more. Thinking it was just someone else playing the game, she promised to be that girl's knight.
Turns out that strange, pointy-eared girls in the middle of forest clearings with hair and eyes the colour of ice TEND NOT TO BE TRUSTWORTHY and now she's bound as the Knight of a Fey. Still, a true knight would not back down from her word so she's going to be a good knight and noble knight as she promised.
HElf with Dark Beckoning as her Dilettante power and a Multiclass into Warden for a good 'Winter Fey' feel without just going with Warlock.
>>45253086
Paladin of Ignorance sounds pretty dumb anon
>>45253164
Not really ignorance, more like "stop fucking with that which much not be fucked with".
How often do the gods personally come down to the mortal realms in your games or settings? And why?
What about this is notably different from meeting them in the divine realms
>>45234594
I understand the joke, but i prefer The Great Atheismo.
>>45253199
>in games
No more than absolutely needed.
>In setting
Constantly. They're basically using mortals to fight a giant proxy war with each other, given that a bunch of what can best be described as cosmic defensive pacts have made it impossible for one of the gods to get near the other with out causing a pan dimensional holy war. Aside from that, there's a couple like Arquero the God of Change and Chance who's pissed people keep trying to stop things from changing and is trying to engineer his reincarnation, or Arcatus the Lesser God of Oblivion who is a pile of dead gods merged together trying to cause the aforementioned pan-dimensional holy war for some nebulous reason.
>>45234273
I'm playing a paladin hellbred who ain't religious. He became a paladin through his devotion to law (and by extension good in his own philosophy).
For those who aren't in the know, hellbred are basically people who repented last minute, had their memories mostly wiped and a new body given to them, then sent back to atone for their sins. My character thinks this injust as he is a new man, and thus refuses to worship gods.
>>45253027
>Re·li·gion /rəˈlijən/
>noun
>The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a God or gods.You're an idiot.
>>45240188
>>45240550
The modern, commonly accepted definitions are this:
An atheist is someone who does not believe god(s) exist.
An agnostic is someone who believes that we cannot know whether or not god(s) exist.
Etymologically speaking, the word atheist means "without a god" ("a" meaning without and "theos" meaning a god), so it could easily be interpreted to mean that you simply don't worship any particular deity and not specify whether or not you believe deities exist, though that's not the way people use it today.
>>45252815
One if the most powerful forces in the world.
Walking around asking directions.
Gives a PotC compass.
Well..that us a creative and clever DM.
>>45256159
Wouldn't those definitions make it possible to be both Agnostic and Atheistic?
As in, you don't believe in the existence of gods but also believe that it is impossible to conclusively prove one way or another?
Fighters suck dicks.
>>45256304
>The god of travel
>Traveling and aiding others who's help someone in their own travels.
He's basically THE god to find wandering the mortal realms
>>45256325
Sure, by the definitions as I typed them, though generally people describe agnosticism as being "you don't know therefore you don't believe one way or the other." As in, someone who doesn't believe gods exist and believes we will never be able to prove that would fall under the category of atheist.
Though really, either way is close enough that I wouldn't fault you for your opinion there (seeing as how language changes and whatnot).
There are clerics of atheism in AD&D 2nd edition. They're called ur-priests, they work like clerics but instead of gaining power through faith and devotion they siphon power off gods with unholy rituals.
>>45253027
Vegetarianism is now a religion.
>>45256444
That is an awesome concept, I'm going to have gods employ ur-priests to siphon the powers from their rivals now.
>>45256444
That's not so much atheism as it is antitheism.
>>45256489
Ur-priests do actively avoid siphoning too much power from one god though, since they'd get crushed otherwise.
Though with a god's protection, that actually sounds like a fun idea
>>45256498
It depends on the individual ur-priest and their motivations.
A lot of ur-priests are antitheists who actively work to undermine a specific god but there's no reason you can't play them as just straight up sceptic with an arcane background.
If a cleric claims to work miracles by his god's favor and an ur-priest can work the same miracle while also denouncing the cleric's god then the burden of proof is on the cleric.
>>45240594
>>45240793
So they need to donate to whatever order they're part of and have faith in something.
So they don't technically need to believe in a God then? Maybe they just have faith in goodness and joined the order because it allowed them to more easily do good by giving them gear and stuff
>>45234632
>Don't need to believe in god
>If got believes in you
My problem with atheism in settings with obvious gods is that the player often does not allow for the possibility that the atheist PC is wrong and that the gods are just that. The burden is always on the religious to prove their gods are really gods to someone who definition of the word god includes the word imaginary, and takes the GM's statements that they are real as just an in-universe belief to be disbelieved and disproven. It feels like getting the PC to even consider they might be wrong requires converting the player in real life.
>>45253164
A Paladin of Ignorance actually sounds pretty interesting. He's just some dirty asshole in robes that runs around burning libraries, and he smites anyone with his Club of Unlearning that says "well, I think I learned my lesson"
>>45234273
>not wanting to play a paladin powered by a feedback loop of believing in himself
>Playing a non-religious or atheist in a fantasy game
This, I automatically kick anyone who doesn't put a deity down on their character sheet. They're just flat out bad at role playing. Everyone would be religious as it's the only thing that makes sense in a world where literal avatars of gods and portions of their divine power are handed out to people who follow them. You don't need to have a paladin character to see expose the stupidity.
>>45258760
Well, your first problem is playing D&D. Your second problem is having anthropomorphic gods.
Any being capable of creating and/or managing (a part of) the universe is so far beyond mortal ken as to be indistinguishable from a "natural" phenomenon.
>>45259173
So... a LeVayan Satanist paladin?
>>45259239
>fantasy automatically implies gods
>playing a paladin
>DM then says that most of the people are non-believers
>in gods that literally walked the world less than 200 years ago
Why not just be a spellsword?
Best paladin coming through.
>>45234322
>what is Eldritch Knight
>>45256471
>Vegetarianism is now a religion.
>Implying vegetarianism isn't a religion.
>>45234594
The capstone to the horror is the Sonic shirt.
>>45265764
A miserable little pile of MAD.
>>45267670
You're doing it wrong then.
I've always liked the idea of playing a Paladin that got picked by a god to be his champion while refusing to believe in the god, even though he expounds his ideals and does his work.
He would seek to justify his abilities, his urge to follow the commandants, and other such things as part of his own personality, rather than some divine being.
Basically, he'd be terrified that some big being in the sky is controlling how he acts and what he does, so he insists on denying they exist despite all the evidence so he can believe he controls his own fate.
A big part of playing him would be coming to terms with the whole issue, of course, but I didn't think I could do it without coming off like an asshole.
>>45259323
Medieval fantasy, at least, implies religion. Gods don't exist IRL but you'd be hard pressed to find an atheist in medieval Europe, or any part of the world really.
>inb4 le hat meme
>>45267852
You'd be hardpressed to find an open atheist, yes. This is mostly due to the fact that you'd be killed if you were open.
Hell, look what happened to Spinoza and he wasn't even in the Middle Ages.
>>45234458
>>45252791
>>45237930
>>45252810
Kamen Rider is paladin of JUSTICE but I think OP was bitching more about paladins of fedoraism.
>>45234273
>not being an ideology paladin
>>45272582
>Turn the Bourgeois
>working class
>revolutionary struggle
God, this is the most obvious Marxfaggotry I've ever seen.
>>45272616
It really is. I like the tenets, but the abilities suck.
>>45272616
can still be used for interesting stories
a good one is to have this type of character in a party where all of them are interested and invested in the idea of a revolution
then have the revolution only be HALF the story, afterwards they'll have to deal with the aftermath.
>>45239021
you should read Pratchett's "Small Gods"
it covers atheism in a setting with real gods really well
also, it's one of Pratchett's best books (and that's saying something), so you should read it anyway
>>45234273
I actually agree with you, completely.
The whole point of the Paladin is that it depicts a very specific archetype of knight, the Bioware Paragon character.
If I want to play the more morally-dubious crusader type, I play as a Neutral Fighter who is styled as a knight. You know, more of the 'looting and killing in the name of God' instead of 'New Testament Jesus' type. Having a Paladin who doesn't hold to class standards is, to be blunt, stupid.
It's like a Cleric who goes "I believe in MYSELF. That's where I get my domains!"
>>45252810
>>45252791
Kamen Rider is MAGICAL REALM^20000 in D&D, because they are chaotic evil shapeshifting monsters by their nature.
>>45275086
>non-religious paladin
>automatically morally-dubious
>>45273087
my man
>>45234273
Does anyone actually do this? or is OP out of faggot rehab again?
> DnD religions are fine, their gods actually do stuff, and their existance is not in question.
Anyone who does what OP is saying is a fucking idiot, but I think he's just trying to make a fedoramancer strawman.
>>45243094
Jokes on you: my secret patron of the last Atheist Paladin was the City he was born in. Whenever there was a Murder, he, spiritually, felt the knife. Each building that fell was like a icy grip on his soul. But each birth, each accomplishment a triumph.
He was fucking paranoid about it, but inside his home town he was granted a form of clairvoyance and precognition, which made him reluctant to leave, but constantly busy stopping crimes and saving lives.
Yeah, I made a paladin into a superhero through his decision to not have the patronage of a God. What you gonna do about it?
>>45275086
I don't see the problem. Why does a particular kind of magic or morality necessarily have to come from a god?
I mean, we're talking about polytheistic pantheons of 'physical' gods, more akin to the Greco-Roman gods, and there are already things like evil clerics, etc.
I mean I get that it's core - but there are plenty things that are core that people change with homebrew/variants all the time.
My group prefers the existence of gods to be left vague (at least to begin with) so there's no direct obvious intervention by them, and various kinds of idealism and faith can fuel divine powers on its own.
It reinstates that fundamental leap of faith that exists in the real world.
>>45245319
Just grab Glint of Madness and become the screamadin.
>>45234273
what!? That's fucking retarded! No doubt fedoras are known for their retarded pseudo-intellectual bullshit, but that's too much!
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