> commoner falls 30 feet and dies
> commoner goes and fights several dozen monsters
> can now fall 30 feet and keep walking
Do people still take D&D seriously in terms of game design?
>>44904289
Yes
>>44904289
I wonder where these protesters are now.
Do they have families? Are they still out fighting? Are they in a ditch somewhere?
>>44904289
It was never meant to be more than an abstraction, but after lots of revision, the point got lost, and now a disconcerting number of the people that play it are min-maxers whose abilities to find and exploit loopholes would be better served as lawyers rather than as attempts to keep an aging system alive.
>Commoner, who's spent their lives practicing farming, falls 30 feet and dies
>Commoner goes out and learns how to fight and survive the unexpected, thrives, gets used to pain and having to react fast to new turns
>Can now manage to turn midfall so the commoner doesn't smash their head or neck, can stand the pain of the landing well enough to get up and walk to the nearest healer; may have to brace a broken bone or three dozen, but used to it by now
Makes some degree of sense. Remember, D&D is more cinematic than realistic. If you want realism, LARP.
>>44904488
>wizard floats down beside them on boots of feather fall
>>44904488
Now I want to see a LARP with 30 foot drops.
>>44904523
Only if we can get OP to join.
>>44904289
it's supposed to be a fun fantasy game with a scaling system that feels earned. You're not playing for gritty realism. There're orcs and wizards and shit and you expect physics to apply?
>>44904488
>If you want realism, LARP.
No, I want believability. There's a huge difference. Even in action movies with endless magazines and guys walking away from explosions, someone doesn't just fall 50 feet and keep walking like nothing happened.
You can do that in D&D after 5th level.
>>44904399
They're eating shit in hell. And puking it in each other's mouth for mutual sustenance. They've fine: it's what they did when they were alive too.
>>44904590
> le "magic exists so fuck all realism" meme
Explain the logical connection between magic existing, and a fighter with no magical protection falling 200 feet and not dying.
>>44904289
Only Varg.
>>44904609
>Who is Jackie Chan?
>>44904630
Simple. Magic.
>>44904609
This is the same system where characters can chant and dance and burn a pinch of sulfur and cause people to explode(Fireball), right? Where monsters that can get chopped up into pieces by a batch of villagers with axes can get back up unless put to the torch or dunked in acid(Troll), right? Where people can be raised from the dead on a regular basis by the right person, given enough of the right materials?
Totally believable. Got larp?
If you need to justify HP to yourself, claim something about 'strengthened life force' or something that sounds like it came out of a B-movie. Hit points were always an abstraction. (Or spiders. Still not sure which.)
>>44904630
He's tough.
>>44904668
That crazy gut no insurance company is ever underwriting.
>>44904685
But it's not magic. I said he does not have magical aid. Antimagic field doesn't change anything, so it's not magic.
> inb4 psionics
Quit dancing around it and face facts.
>>44904399
I wonder why you care.
> commoner falls 30 feet and dies
> commoner goes and dies trying to fight monsters
FTFY, OP
>>44904289
I like that their argument for preventing death is to kill people before they can kill more people. Obvious void cult is obvious.
>>44904757
"No magic"? Depends on the setting. For all we know, he's reinforcing his own flesh with his innate magic, rather than directing it outwards in fireballs and color sprays... Which actually makes sense of the d4 hit die of a wizard.
Also, "Facts"? In a game of imagination? That got a chuckle out of me.
>>44904716
Yes, and those are all explained as supernatural abilities. However, the average person or even well-trained NPC fighter is NOT supernatural, and yet with no magical aid a person can fall 200 feet just because he killed a bunch of monsters.
It's completely ridiculous.
> If you need to justify HP to yourself, claim something about 'strengthened life force' or something that sounds like it came out of a B-movie. Hit points were always an abstraction. (Or spiders. Still not sure which.)
I understand HP is an abstraction. In combat it represents near misses. But there is no way to avoid falling 200 feet onto rock or stone. You die either way. That is not an abstraction, that is a flaw in a health system that has not been addressed because of "muh nostalgia" even though the game's own designers improved the system several times with variant rules.
Why was VP / WP not implemented in the core game? Nostalgia, which sadly is the only thing D&D still offers.
maybe they're subconsciously strengthening their bodies with magic
maybe reality in fantasy worlds is significantly more malleable than our own
maybe physics work differently
don't need to be such an unimaginative dick about it
>>44904822
>Yes, and those are all explained as supernatural abilities
So a troll stops regenerating in an anti-magic field?
>>44904817
>For all we know, he's reinforcing his own flesh with his innate magic
So explain why a fighter can fall 200 feet through antimagic fields and still survive?
Your argument is falling apart with bullshit explanations.
> Also, "Facts"? In a game of imagination? That got a chuckle out of me.
And here we go with the erroneous comparisons and cherrypicking!
The simple fact is that D&D has no believability. A fantasy story can have believability, because an element of that is internal logic. Sure you can handwave stuff with magic, but when no magic is involved, the rules of reality apply.
>>44904822
>ye olde bait
Nothing to see here, people, this is a magic beats all thread.
>>44904734
I don't think anyone would insure anyone in the Middle Ages either. Oh, a commoner fell 50 feet and died? Tough luck.
>>44904841
No, because that is a supernatural ability of a supernatural creature. Not magical.
Humans are not supernatural.
Even if they were, explain how the fuck fighting 10 goblins suddenly makes you able to fall further. What if you didn't get hit? What if you picked them off from a far with a bow and arrow? You didn't learn any shit about how to fall correctly, or anything of that sort.
I also like how the game lets you improve your stealth skills even if you've never used them, just by virtue of killing a ton of shit.
Same with a commoner. If fucking Albert Einstein existed, the only way he could be a high level physicist would be to kill some goblins and orcs. And then he'd have 20-something hit points. A tiny wrinkly old man.
Yeah, that makes sense.
>>44904609
>No, I want believability
In the same universe with vampires, werewolves, dragons, golems, ogres, giants, steampunk hover trains, etc? kindly fuck off.
>>44904873
>this is a magic beats all thread.
I'm not the one trying to put it where it doesn't exist. A 20th level fighter falling 200 feet through antimagic fields still survives. No magic or supernatural ability is involved. Your argument is invalid.
>>44904849
Have you considered the possibility that humans in fantasy settings aren't necessarily the humans in our world, but instead a race of beings that can, after gaining experience through hardship and near death, grow more powerful over time, even outside a purely magical perspective? Lots of races have natural abilities that fall outside the purview of science or magic.
Maybe humans aren't us.
>>44904913
>In the same universe with vampires, werewolves, dragons, golems, ogres, giants, steampunk hover trains, etc?
Yep. Because those we can suspend our disbelief for because they are explained as part of the setting.
Pleas fuck off with the "magic exists so nothing has to make sense" meme, it's childish and tired.
Please note that even a D&D game with NO magic at all, only humans and fighter classes, a powerful fighter would STILL survive the fall of 200 feet, because D&D is a broken system.
>>44904916
No, you're trying to fuck up mundanes by making them die of falls, scratches and dysentery while godly casters keep their supremacy intact. Fuck you.
>>44904630
Because if he didn't that means he has less HP than the wizard. This means the DM nerfed fighters and you should probably leave the group immediately.
Vesna Vulović says hi
>>44904896
Albert Einstein was only level 5, at best, and the DM can give out XP whenever he likes.
>>44904953
Where did I say that, exactly?
Caster supremacy is a completely separate issue. Just because a caster is overpowered, doesn't mean we have to suddenly make everything break reality and turn the game into a superhero wankfest.
My motives also have nothing to do with this, but for reference I've always preferred playing martials and hated caster imbalance, so you have missed the mark again. Please come up with a real answer to my question, I'm getting bored here.
>>44904822
You keep beggaring the point of the falling adventurer being non-supernatural. In doing so, you're explicitly denying him access to both evoked magical abilities and magical items. However, you also attempt to restrict him to 'mundane capabilities', when you're referencing a person who has gone against way more monsters than standard, to the point where they can possibly cleave through an entire camp of kobolds or gremlins, armed with metal weapons, casually. That is not 'normal' or 'natural'.
It also decries the influence of divine action, an overt part of the setting given the clerical abilities. For all we know, Pelor might be assisting Mr. Crater to survive his repeated demonstration falls out of compassion. (Or, if he's in more of a Zarus mood, because he kills 1d4 kobolds with each impact, pleasing the diety's sense of conquest.)
Furthermore, your example of a safe fall of 200 feet undermines your point. Either Mr. Crater got really lucky, as has happened in real life before (and likely requires medical attention anyway), or he's following your previous examples and is 20th or higher level, at which point, since that's well within the realms of epic heroes, any sense of 'realism' went out the window.
Source on surviving fall:
http://www.today.com/news/skydiving-miracle-man-falls-two-miles-2D80556106
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/skydiver-survives-14000-foot-fall-3699030
>>44904981
>Because if he didn't that means he has less HP than the wizard.
The entire point here is that Hit Points are a terrible system and only exist because they are the only identity Dungeons and Dragons has. Trying to improve the system would take away the only reason people still play it; nostalgia. It's a bit ironic that the first RPG system is now the worst because it has to cling to outdated rules systems.
>>44904993
>the DM can give out XP whenever he likes.
Interesting. So that explains why Albert Einstein has 25 hit points?
I actually did see a post proposing him as being level 1, but that fucks up too because 1 in 216 people have 18 Int, he was one of the best in the world.
>>44905011
>when you're referencing a person who has gone against way more monsters than standard, to the point where they can possibly cleave through an entire camp of kobolds or gremlins, armed with metal weapons, casually.
I never said "casually." And yes, a well trained group of people could kill many less-trained opponents.
Also congratulations on finding TWO instances of someone surviving a long fall. Yet 99.99% of the time someone who falls more than 100 feet onto a hard surface, dies.
Your two counterexamples do not change reality; those were rare occurences. A level 20 fighter literally cannot die from falling. It is impossible.
The fall damage system doesn't make sense, but it's supposed to model certain death conditions. Most of these conditions are very arbitrary. Does it really take, on average, the same time for a rat and a kobold to drown? Hell no, the kobold should be able to last quite a bit longer. Does it makes sense for a Loaf of bread falling 70 ft. to have a 75% of killing a level 1 commoner? Of course it doesn't.
These are just things you can use to represent a threat in a game, and just like how you'll eventually outgrow your fear of dire rats eating your face, you can ignore the fear of falling unless certain circumstances are met.
>>44904609
D&D adventurers are literally superhuman. What they do doesn't need to make sense as long as it is consistent.
You want something that explores the limits of regular people? Play something else. D&D is not the only game out there, and might I just say that in your attempt to make your entire view of what RPGs should be fit into any edition it, you have become everything wrong with the audience of tabletop RPGs.
>>44904896
while le magic maymay is terrible in some ways, there is no reason to expect a pc to be anything but supernatural in a dnd/pathfinder game. Supernatural martial's who mirror ancient heroes make better allies for a cabal of wizards than Joe the farmer and certainly make more sense when they survive long falls or being on fire for an hour with no loss of combat effectiveness. Also, they tend to be more fun to play
That all being said, your right about dnd being purely for nostalgia. There are much better systems now.
>>44905103
>you can ignore the fear of falling unless certain circumstances are met.
What? We're talking about someone ACTUALLY FALLING here.
>>44904849
You sabotage your argument involving antimagic fields here:>>44904896
with the argument that antimagic fields don't affect innate abilities.
>>44905011
And before you claim 'oh, the parachute eased the fall/it was soft ground/other reason', in all cases, all parachutes failed, and even water reacts like concrete to anyone falling fast enough.
>>44905089
How frequent do you think high-level adventurers are in a given setting? Do you expect a 10th level wizard in every tavern?
Rarity is in play for D&D as well. As is super'human' ability in PCs (Monks can fall for any distance unharmed, given the right level). Now quit bitching and roll stats. 3d6 each, in order.
>>44905089
>Yet 99.99% of the time someone who falls more than 100 feet onto a hard surface, dies.
Because that 99% of people weren't blessed, lucky, etc, HPs aren't life points, is a mixture of health, lucky, divine intervention, plot points, etc. PCs are more important to the story (PC classes) and that's why they usually have more HPs than mere commoners and other npcs.
Now, for the second time, kindly go fuck yourself.
>>44905051
Yeah well it kinda would suck if your level 18 fighter dies to a infection from a shit covered arrow. Just accept that D&D is not the system you want to play if you are a simulationist instead of escapist.
>>44904289
> commoner falls 30 feet and dies
> commoner fights ONE monsters and dies
Fixed.
Even against a kobold, it's about 50/50 wether a leve 1 commoner survive the encounter or not.
And he got to kill a whole bunch of kobolds to level up to the point where he can shrug a fall off.
Statistically, a few commoners can and will survive enough encounters to level up. Those become adventurers.
>>44904896
>Humans are not supernatural
Yes they are. They can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips and everything.
>>44905114
>What they do doesn't need to make sense as long as it is consistent.
So if they can all fly and piss fire, it's okay? As mundane humans?
> You want something that explores the limits of regular people?
No, I want something that lets me play as idealized people. There are plenty of other systems that do that.
Action movies commonly use falling as a fear / hazard for the protagonist to avoid. Being able to fucking deadfall 200 feet completely removes that fear.
> might I just say that in your attempt to make your entire view of what RPGs should be fit into any edition it, you have become everything wrong with the audience of tabletop RPGs.
I have no idea what this sentence is meant to say, because it fucks up near the comma, but I highly doubt expecting believability from a game makes me "everything wrong with RPGs." Beleivability is a vital aspect in storytelling.
>>44904945
I for one disagree that D&D is a broken system. It does what it sets out to do, and takes the baggage that comes along with it. The core experience of D&D is nobody-to-hero. One orc is a threat to a starting character. Eventually, you can go toe to toe with dragons. Whether that's what you want in your fantasy is a matter of taste, but it's what D&D decided it is and it reaps the benefits and sucks up the cost. One of those costs is that, if you're keeping the system streamlined, some things that oughtn't care about your experience end up doing so.
And maybe some of that is fixable. Perhaps somewhere along the line, someone could have said "Hey, why not have falling damage be in % of max hp", but at least nowadays they're trying to make the ultra-fiddly game just a little less fiddly and a little more out of the gate playable.
I am not claiming and will never claim that D&D is without problems, but guess what -- every system has issues, opportunity costs invoked by their design choices. Which ones you find unimportant and which ones you find unforgivable are not the marks of a "broken" system.
(What is the mark of a broken system? Not doing what its rules are actually geared to do)
>>44905207
Well if your main fear when fighting a elemental hydra with 16 heads and even more magic abilities is whether or not you fall off a ledge then you have mixed priorities with "everything has to be realistic".
>>44905159
>with the argument that antimagic fields don't affect innate abilities.
That's fine. Except a human does not have any supernatural abilities to explain him falling 200 feet. Unless they are listed under his racial traits as supernatural, they are not there according to the rules of the game, and it is just lazy handwaving on your part.
I didn't need to make any claim about the parachutes because two examples does not handwave hundreds of thousands of people dying from falls.
> How frequent do you think high-level adventurers are in a given setting? Do you expect a 10th level wizard in every tavern?
No, but I still expect them to obey the rules of reality when magic is not specifically involved.
> As is super'human' ability in PCs (Monks can fall for any distance unharmed, given the right level)
Yes, and that is given as one of their supernatural / extraordinary abilities. Which they don't need by that point because they can fall 600 feet and survive anyway.
>>44905158
And I'm talking about how the D&D system is totally arbitrary.
In the book of Weeaboo Fightin' Magic there is a stance someone can take (as in, holding yourself in a certain manner) that allow you to become immune to fire damage if you have good enough tumble. By holding yourself in a certain way you can fucking take a dive in lava.
>>44904896
Do you even D&D? any given creature has the potential to be supernatural, absolutely any.
>b-but fighters aren't supernatural
yes they can be, there're feats that give them supernatural and extraordinary abilities, and even though not all of them are going to pick them the option is there meaning they have the potential to be supernatural, also, the more you reach high levels the closer you're to epic levels and divinity, therefore shit like falling, faceparring a fireball, etc affect you less and less.
>>44905170
>PCs are more important to the story (PC classes) and that's why they usually have more HPs than mere commoners and other npcs.
Your argument falls apart when a warrior who survives to 5th level can still fall 60 feet and not die.
> Now, for the second time, kindly go fuck yourself.
Personal attacks don't help your argument, anon. In fact they are completely irrelevant.
>>44904896
Are you a complete fucking moron.
The game provides a framework that the DM uses to run the game. The framework is not supposed to be using the DM.
Just because a system 'CAN' do something, doesn't mean that it 'SHOULD' or 'MUST' do it, and I would argue that any DM who just says 'Yep, you kill ten goblins, you're better at everything now' is a shitty DM.
>>44904916
The inherent magic in all beings progresses his level of physical prowess as he kills monsters and gains XP.
Maybe abstract it such that, if he somehow did 100% of his fighting in an antimagic field then the innate supernatural ability he has to get tougher and buffer by killing things doesn't trigger. Once it has triggered, though, he's just physically that tough and there's no more magic to it -- like how you can Wish for a permanent strength increase and even being in an antimagic field doesn't negate that increase. Or maybe the magic of levelling up is something that the dudes who made anti magic fields didn't account for to negate.
The martial dude's entire life is his being interacting with fate and causing the equivalent of thousands of super tiny wishes to increase his capability, including how tough he is such that he can survive a fall.
The answer is magic. Fuck you.
>>44905252
Well here's a question for you. How often have you played a game and someone fell this mythical 200 ft often enough for you to get this pissed?
>>44905051
>Interesting. So that explains why Albert Einstein has 25 hit points?
Well, yes.
>>44904289
>do people still take levels seriously in terms of game design
Found the question you actually wanted to ask, no need to thank me. And the answer is yes, but mainly for games in genres where plot armor is a serious thing. Your character murders increasingly difficult things until they can confront the ultimate threat because FUCK REALISM MY DICK IS HUGE AND I CAN SHOOT FIRE!
>>44905178
Just accept that your system lacks believability in any way shape or form, and cannot explain glaring logical holes in its constructed reality.
>>44905197
>They can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips and everything.
If they have wizard levels. A fighter is not supernatural, and a fighter with no magical gear can still fall 200 feet and survive. Can we move past this? You seem to be stuck on the fact that no, not everyone is magical.
>>44905252
>Unless they are listed under his racial traits as supernatural, they are not there according to the rules of the game, and it is just lazy handwaving on your part.
Actually they have, it's called levels, the more levels you have the less mundane you are.
>>44905301
Tell me a system that has absolutely no holes in it and is perfect in every way and I will concede. But since you can't your position is moot. Just play the damn game for fun and stop being such a sperging grog we'd.
>>44905301
>wanting believably
>in a world with magic and monsters and shit
stay mad, sperg
>>44905181
>Even against a kobold, it's about 50/50 wether a leve 1 commoner survive the encounter or not.
Yep. But it's still 50/50. And in a group they could ambush lone kobolds and easily win almost every time. Say 10 on 1, they split the XP. Doing this for almost a year they could easily reach higher levels and suddenly become better at falling.
Hell, a fucking executioner can get better at falling by executing level 1 kobolds during a kobold labor uprising.
The system does not make internal sense because it is structured like a video game.
>>44905301
>your fantasy narrative has fantastical elements
Brilliant insight.
>>44905229
>It does what it sets out to do, and takes the baggage that comes along with it.
That means nothing if what it sets out to do, is complete crap.
I don't get it, why didn't the fighter just use his bonus feats and get Ironheart Surge. That way when he starts falling he can simply think "Falling is a negative effect on myself lasting more than one turn" and suddenly be on the ground? It's totally normal right? Or what about him using the same thing to will away his armor being heated up by magic? Low level fighters are clearly not supernatural in the slightest.
>>44905257
>In the book of Weeaboo Fightin' Magic there is a stance someone can take (as in, holding yourself in a certain manner) that allow you to become immune to fire damage if you have good enough tumble. By holding yourself in a certain way you can fucking take a dive in lava.
Nowhere did I say that that was also okay. There are many issues with D&D, the submersion in lava thing is one of them.
Almost all of them are caused by HP bloat and HP inflation.
Hmm I wonder if we could solve that problem... except HP inflation is a core reason to play D&D, as is the overcomplicated Vancian magic system, as is the dumb-ass idea that you should roll randomly to see how many hit points you have. Yet, if you remove these, D&D loses its shaky identity completely.
>>44905250
>Well if your main fear when fighting a elemental hydra with 16 heads and even more magic abilities is whether or not you fall off a ledge then you have mixed priorities with "everything has to be realistic".
Where exactly did I mention anything about fighting a 16 headed hydra?
A cliffside battle that might be tense in a movie because someone might fall, or a duel on a balance beam, loses 90% of its tension when the main consequence (death from falling) is handwaved by a system that cannot make competent rules.
You know, at first I thought you were mentally handicapped, OP, but after seing how you keep the conversation going on and on I'm starting to think this is all a ruse, so congrats, nice bait.
>>44905252
>A human does not have any supernatural abilities
OBJECTION! That's a setting point, not for you to decide for all cases.
>when magic is not specifically involved
Depends on the setting; for all you know, D&D may default that magic is involved.
>extraordinary abilities
That can pass straight through an antimagic field without disruption.
>>44905207
>Being able to deadfall 200 feet removes that fear
Take it up with your GM. Though if everyone else is left in just bad enough condition to barely survive a kobold fight after while your character splatters into something out of a Mexican restaurant, that's your own fault.
>>44905281
This can work as an explanation.
>>44905301
>A fighter is not supernatural
Setting decision!
>>44905315
This works!
>>44905384
Why does D&D need your approval to be OK? If holding yourself in a certain manner makes you immune to fire they're clearly working on a VERY supernatural level.
>>44905259
>Do you even D&D?
Can we please stop with the 13 year old lolspeak?
> yes they can be, there're feats that give them supernatural and extraordinary abilities,
Yep. But if I don't take them, my fighter still survives falling hundreds of feet. No supernatural / magic involved. At all.
>>44904289
XP for killing monsters? What a little bitch you are.
XP for money like normal people.
And as far as I'm concerned, 30 feet is Save vs Paralysis or die. If you succeed, take 3D6 damage from injuries.
>>44905276
>Just because a system 'CAN' do something, doesn't mean that it 'SHOULD' or 'MUST' do it, and I would argue that any DM who just says 'Yep, you kill ten goblins, you're better at everything now' is a shitty DM.
Except you don't do that, you play out the encounters.
And according to the rules of the game, "Yep, you kill ten goblins, you're better at everything now" is EXACTLY how it works. That is a core part of the game. If you do not use it, you are not playing the actual game.
>>44905207
Nah, that guy was being way melodramatic.
Expecting D&D to be able to do specifically what you want it to do does make you an idiot, though, so there is that.
D&D only does one thing well, and that's heroic fantasy. That is to say fantasy where you play heroes, contextual definition being people who are very much not just 'idealized people', but literal superhumans who do things that people, no matter how 'idealized' would not normally be capable of, such as leaping across football fields, catching ballista bolts mid-flight with their bare hands, being so charming that cults of personality pop up whenever they visit a tavern, cutting down six orcs with one swing of their axe, crawling through spaces that are literally a quarter of their size, hearing pins drop on the other side of a busy market, swimming up waterfalls, and yes, surviving 50 foot falls.
If you can't deal with that, and still insist that D&D should be realistic/believable/whatever other meaningless buzzword you would like to use next, then you are a lost cause and I feel sorry for anybody who DMs for you but nonetheless wish you the best of luck finding a game which suits your strange and specific tastes.
>>44905352
It's not even inconsistent in the gameworld, so I don't know what his problem is. The way D&D works is that people become capable of crazy things the higher level they get, and they gain levels through some cosmic idea of Experience.
The mechanics themselves are fine as far as that goes. Anything that doesn't make internal sense is usually the product of a bad DM, setting detail, or a splatbook.
>>44905281
>The inherent magic in all beings progresses his level of physical prowess as he kills monsters and gains XP.
Please show me the exact place in the D&D rules where it says that. We are talking about D&D canon, not the stupid justifications you come up with to avoid slapping your head autistically whenever this glaring flaw in your system is brought up.
>>44905301
>A fighter is not supernatural
I disagree, in 5e you have eldritch knights, in 3.5 you had Warblades, and even if you say "fighters" as the class, you're still wrong because there're feats that clearly give you supernatural and extraordinary abilities, so yes, a fighter can in fact be supernatural.
>>44905456
Okay, circular argument, gotcha. I'm gonna go jerk off because even that's more productive than continuing to attempt conversation with an echo machine.
>>44905281
>Maybe abstract it such that, if he somehow did 100% of his fighting in an antimagic field then the innate supernatural ability he has to get tougher and buffer by killing things doesn't trigger. Once it has triggered, though, he's just physically that tough and there's no more magic to it -- like how you can Wish for a permanent strength increase and even being in an antimagic field doesn't negate that increase. Or maybe the magic of levelling up is something that the dudes who made anti magic fields didn't account for to negate.
You're rambling pointlessly. There is nothing about an antimagic field that says it does this.
> The martial dude's entire life is his being interacting with fate and causing the equivalent of thousands of super tiny wishes to increase his capability, including how tough he is such that he can survive a fall.
Are you listening to yourself? This is the most labored rationalization I have ever seen in my life, and NONE of this is covered by D&D canon.
> The answer is magic. Fuck you.
Yeah, that's a compelling argument. Grow up.
>>44905284
I actually did try to build a high level encounter in one of my games in an icy region where PCs who got hit might fall, before realizing they could literally land on their feet and stick the landing and still only lose about half their hit points.
And since losing hp has no effect until 0, they could just walk away. Not even breaking stride.
Now you're going to call me a shitty DM for trying to make an interesting encounter, I just know it. Or say "you should have put more monsters at the bottom for them to fight!" and completely ignore the entire point.
>>44904289
>posts lesbians for abortion pic
>W must die for saying "your poor decisions = your problem"
>wonders if D&D makes sense
Is this Zen bait, senpai?
>>44905444
House rules solve all of OPs problems.
Make your own lava/gravity damage, problem solved!
That being said, 30 feet is only like 2 stories so that's a bit rough
>>44905483
"Your system" you are such a contentious fucking faggot. I haven't played D&D in my life.
You know how it works? Because it does. That's part of the universe. As a matter of fact, you're the one trying to insert real world logic into the mechanics of a universe that isn't the real world. How does the fighter survive the fall after fighting some monsters? Clearly because fighting enough monsters makes you physically tougher in all respects. That's what happens in the game. That's how the system and the canon works.
Why do you need a reason?
>>44905286
So (1) how does Albert Einstein get to 6th level, and (2) by being a world-famous physicist, I can shoot him in the face with a Luger to virtually no effect?
Why did the guy even leave Germany, when he could've killed more Nazis than any other man alive?
>>44905315
>the more levels you have the less mundane you are.
Please (1) define mundane, and (2) show me where exactly in the book it says this.
Yes, you might become less mundane as a high level fighter, in that you are less ordinary, but you do not become supernatural, as you have no supernatural abilities according to the D&D rules. Your rationalizations after the fact have no bearing on what the actual rules say.
D&D =/= simulation
>>44905515
>bitches about fictional storytelling game systems on 4chan
>tells other people to grow up
>>44905550
Eh. I think that attempting to implement random instagibs is leaning towards bad encounter design but at the same time I respect that it was high level and therefore supposed to be hard.
I'm generally a fan of fights with more win/lose conditions than just 'Make the people fall down before you fall down'
>>44905352
Nice job writing out something I didn't say, then attaching a sarcastic comment. Are you going to contribute to the discussion?
>>44905408
I know right? It's like the best Italian-meets-annelid dish I've ever tasted. (Not OP)
>>44905433
Still MAY survive, you mean.
We're talking about up to 1200 damage here. Your fighter has, at minimum, 10 hit points plus 1 per level beyond their start. So a fighter is only guaranteed to survive a 200+ foot fall, starting from their native full health, when they reach level 1191.
That's a god (or cheat)-level character, anon - calling him non-supernatural's denying the obvious.
>>44905598
I dunno about Nazis, but his effects on the Pacific Offensive were pretty conclusive. (Well, him and some followers, but they're a given after a certain point.)
>>44905578
You can die from a height that short, you can also survive a height several times that. Human durability is a weird thing.
>>44905364
The point is that a fighter does not need to do this, he can simply soak the fall damage without any of the feats or abilties or gear you just described.
He is completely non-supernatural and non-magical. An antimagic field does not affect him, and he does not have any listed supernatural abilities by default. He is completely mundane according to the rules. End of story.
>>44905660
This isn't a discussion. It's just you being a bitchy faggot with a stick up your ass.
>>44905483
I don't really think the system needs to explain itself. D&D is bad, but you picked a really odd choice of flaw to rail about when there's so many other nice juicy chunks of poor and nonsensical design to rip at.
Basically, either this is bait, or you're a prancing nutjob.
>>44905409
>That's a setting point, not for you to decide for all cases.
Oh really? Please show me where your little explanation is supported in published D&D settings where this can happen.
> for all you know, D&D may default that magic is involved.
Then show me where it says this in the book.
> That can pass straight through an antimagic field without disruption.
Those are non-supernatural.
> Setting decision!
Again, show me a fucking published D&D setting by WotC that supports your assertion. Until then, it is nothing but rationalization on your part.
>>44905401
It's kinda mixed with the point that you're making an example of a level 20 fighter surviving a fall. A 16 headed elemental hydra isn't even CR 18. If a fighter is fighting hints like that and you kill him off because he fell 50 ft. then you are clinically retarded.
>>44905411
> I can't counter your point, so guess what? D&D doesn't NEED your opinion! So there!
Are you a fucking child?
> If holding yourself in a certain manner makes you immune to fire they're clearly working on a VERY supernatural level.
Yes, and that is the Book of Nine Swords which has martials that have supernatural powers. It fucking says it in the book. Whereas a mundane fighter, or, fuck, even a high level commoner, can fall and survive with NO magical aid.
It's a major flaw in the HP system that is full of HP bloat, and you've been trying to say something provably false for almost a hundred posts now.
>>44905444
>And as far as I'm concerned, 30 feet is Save vs Paralysis or die. If you succeed, take 3D6 damage from injuries.
This man gets it.
>>44905725
That's what the system says, so that's how it works, even if the 'why' isn't explained.
>>44905660
>you system lacks believability
That's what you said, which is consistent with my earlier post that you're responding to. It's a fantasy game, by it's very nature it lacks believability. It's a pile of incoherent gibberish that comes together to make something cool, fun and entertaining. It doesn't need to adequately explain how levels work in-universe because levels AREN'T in-universe, they represent an abstract notion of power and plot armor. Of course an important character has resistance to a fall, Gandalf fell into a huge pit while grappling with an ancient demon and he came out better than ever. That's how the genre works, ya dingus.
>>44905771
Hey shit for brains! The refutation was "I can ignore fire by doing something as mundane as posturing myself, so why the fuck do you think this is anything comparable to our reality?"
>>44905459
>Expecting D&D to be able to do specifically what you want it to do does make you an idiot, though, so there is that.
Oh shit, the game I paid money for, doesn't have to do what I want it to? Then why the fuck does it even exist? You'll get far with that attitude toward customers.
> If you can't deal with that, and still insist that D&D should be realistic/believable/whatever other meaningless buzzword you would like to use next, then you are a lost cause and I feel sorry for anybody who DMs for you but nonetheless wish you the best of luck finding a game which suits your strange and specific tastes.
How is expecting the game to behave within the laws of physics, strange? It's like you'd be mad at me for objecting to humans being able to wallwalk with no magical aid.
>>44905494
>than continuing to attempt conversation with an echo machine.
You brought up zero new points, instead deciding to harp on about the same exact point that I refuted repeatedly. Don't get mad at the echo when you're the one who keeps shouting the same thing.
>>44905725
D&D books are already so massive and dense with rules text, do you really want a overwrought, detailed explanation for every minor fantastical element that isn't explicitly explained?
If so you are the autisty autist to ever out a tist.
>>44905484
>a fighter can in fact be supernatural.
*Can* be, but only with certain feats that you've been neglecting to name even one specific example. Most of them are probably from the Book of Nine Swords.
A flat out fighter with NO supernatural feats and NO magic equipment, completely naked, can fall 200 feet and survive just fine, with no physical handicap.
Justify that.
>>44905688
You keep ignoring me pointing out 'Setting detail!'
That's okay; you're obviously arguing in bad faith, given your refusal to acknowledge others explaining why the situation you object to is possible, how you've tried to reject any influence of non-natural possibilities in your gedanken demonstration(pic related), and how you refuse to allow the situation to drop. So there's no point in arguing in good faith with you.
D&D uses a nonrealistic mechanic because it's simple and it fits the heroic fantasy setting it's designed for. If you have a complaint with it, apply a house rule or use another system. (I'd recommend larping; maximum realism, until someone starts yelling LIGHTNING BOLT!) Some of us like D&D here. All you're doing by decrying it is wasting a thread space that could be used for an awesome thread.
>>44905803
All things don't exist for your amusement you fucking egocentric fuck. If you don't like the way it's set up then don't spend your money on it because it's clearly not for someone with as little imagination in their soul as you.
Do you want fluff for why it works? Then make your own game world and create the fluff. Do you not care? Then don't worry about it. Do you need it but demand the company do it for you because you can't see anything open ended as an opportunity to shift the game to your tastes? Congratulations, you're not fit for roleplaying and worldbuilding.
>>44905803
>Oh shit, the game I paid money
Then you should have bough "Mud Shitting Peasants the RPG" instead of an RPG about high/heroic fantasy.
This is like me buying a Pokemon game and complaining it's not fucking Street Fighter.
>>44905860
>Justify that.
Plot, luck and blessed by the gods are 3 examples.
BTW, read what PC actually means, it's in the PHB and the DMG.
>>44905860
The fighter can survive whatever the fuck the DM says he can, BECAUSE THE FIGHTER DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST.
>>44905803
Show me where D&D says that it is supposed to behave within the laws of physics bro
>>44905592
>"Your system" you are such a contentious fucking faggot. I haven't played D&D in my life.
Oh, sorry for not guessing that you have actually played the system you are trying to defend.
> You know how it works? Because it does.
Top kek.
> That's part of the universe.
Show me where it says that in the rules.
> As a matter of fact, you're the one trying to insert real world logic into the mechanics of a universe that isn't the real world.
Neither are shittons of fantasy stories where people fall and die, or tension is created by the risk of a fall.
> How does the fighter survive the fall after fighting some monsters? Clearly because fighting enough monsters makes you physically tougher in all respects. That's what happens in the game. That's how the system and the canon works.
Yes, and it makes zero sense.
> Why do you need a reason?
Because it hinders gameplay and narrative believability when you can literally jump off the grand canyon and survive unhindered. Then have the cleric try to heal you and barely do anything, with a spell that would bring an average man back from near death.
I guess leveling up means healing spells are less effective on you. That makes sense.
>>44905803
Because the game clearly does not work within the strict laws of physics? What the fuck are you talking about?
>>44905803
>THIS GAME WHICH DOESN'T TARGET MY PREFERENCES HOLDS ONLY LIMITED APPEAL FOR ME
>I AM GOING TO BECOME ANGRY ABOUT THIS
And then anon wasted an hour of his life being mad on the internet. The end.
>>44905578
>House rules solve all of OPs problems.
House rules solve EVERY problem. The thing is, not everyone is playing with those house rules.
>>44905643
We're not talking about simulation here. Even in idealized realities a long fall is often lethal even to main characters.
>>44905935
>Yes, and it makes zero sense.
It's not fucking supposed to. D&D is not a game about belivability.
>>44905935
It does not hinder narrative believability. The narrative is fantasy. The narrative is not "strictly adhering to logical, real world progression."
If you want the latter then there are other systems for you. High fantasy systems (of which DnD is merely one of many) clearly aren't.
>>44905837
This entire thread has been you shouting the same thing, then everyone else shouting a different same thing.
Can we all just stop now, it was funny watching everyone get mad at first but now I'm starting to want to not be a part of the human race.
>>44905650
Fair enough. But the idea was not an instantgib but rather to force them to adopt a certain strategy to avoid that, and thus the encounter became more challenging because of that restriction.
>>44905687
>Human durability is a weird thing.
Which D&D completely fails to m
>>44905961
>Even in idealized realities a long fall is often lethal even to main characters.
And not in D&D and many other games that don't have fall damage.
Also there are plenty of fucking instances in media of a main character falling to "their doom" and then coming back pretty much just banged up.
>>44905935
You are making it sound like the only tension in any story is derived from the fact that the hero might fall of a cliff every day.
>>44905666
Fall damage caps at 20d6, m8. And the probability of him taking significantly more than average is astronomically low.
> That's a god (or cheat)-level character, anon
Where does it say in the book that a 20th level fighter is an actual god? What a waste of satanic trips, christ.
>>44905862
And regarding 'point out an established setting that uses this for me', or 'show me in the book', NO. Because no author's going to waste time explaining that when they could be showing you where the gnolls and dragons are. Similarly, the books don't indicate that it's not possible, so it passes.
Though...
D&D, 5th ed, page 5:
"The adventurers grow in might as the campaign continues. Each monster defeated, each adventure completed, and each treasure recovered not only adds to the continuing story, but also earns the adventurers new capabilities. This increase in power is reflected by an adventurer's level."
So yes, characters go stronger - including more resilient, by design, in the D&D canon. Now shush.
>>44906033
Where does it say that a 20th level fighter capable of taking on giant demons from the 6,927,223th layer of the abyss solo is not special?
>>44905705
Glad you decided that all by yourself.
>>44905715
>D&D is bad, but you picked a really odd choice of flaw to rail about when there's so many other nice juicy chunks of poor and nonsensical design to rip at.
I chose something reality-breaking, rather than endless quibbling about design. Sue me.
But fine, what about how a healer can heal a commoner who broke his back and nearly died, but if he tries that spell on a high level fighter, the best he can heal is a papercut?
The game is full of shit like this and most of it has to do with HP bloat.
>>44905991
>Which D&D completely fails to m
I assume you meant mention. If you didn't I apologize, but you shouldn't need to be told that. D&D shouldn't tell you how humans make babies either.
>>44906033
It doesn't. How levels fucking scale and the limits of human ability are up to the fucking setting.
Like in my setting. HP is straight up Meat Points. Humans are generally tough motherfuckers. Everything has to be in world full of dragons and trolls and fuckers shooting laser beams from their eyes.
>>44906062
>reality-breaking
>in a fantasy setting
go figure
>>44906062
>I chose something reality-breaking, rather than endless quibbling about design. Sue me.
>surviving a fall from a great height is reality breaking
Virt, go fucking kill yourself. That was just downright disgraceful even for a cocksucking cellarbeast like you.
>>44905756
>If a fighter is fighting hints like that and you kill him off because he fell 50 ft. then you are clinically retarded.
Please show me that dianostic criteria in the DSM IV. I'd like to see it.
The logical connection is also off. If you dodge all his attacks then chop his heads off, so what? A mundane human could do that with enough skill. But falling does not take skill into account past a certain point. You plummet at 9.8 m/s2 and hit a surface. You can twist a bit but that's not the difference when it's 200 feet.
You're making plot arguments to justify destroying believability. This is the exact place that plotholes come from.
>>44906062
Prancing nutjob, gotcha
>>44906053
Who's the Lord of that layer, again?
>>44904289
Why do all feminists look frumpy and ugly?
Posting in a VirtualOptim thread
>>44905598
I dunno, how much damage does a Luger make in D&D?
>>44906033
Valid on the number; I calculated 1200 offhand, rather than 120, for 20 * 6. My error. Still results in a 111-th level character to survive that consistently. "Average" damage doesn't count, considering your consistent use of 'WILL survive' - i.e. guaranteed survival.
Epic-level character at level 20. Pretty sure that was explicitly legendary-tier characters in 2nd ed; may as well be in most others, as I think whitebox and 1st ed AD&D limited you to level 10.
>>44906103
Please tell me how exciting it is for Hercules to be fist fighting dragons and wrestling Titans and then die because he fell out of the 5th story window of his palace.
>>44905788
>That's what the system says, so that's how it works,
Yes, and it gives no explanation for why that is okay.
>>44905800
That's not a refutation because that stance comes from a book of supernatural abilities and feats.
And if that ISN'T supernatural, then that's another tack on D&D's list of shitty lack of believability.
> why the fuck do you think this is anything comparable to our reality?
Because the sun still rises you fucking imbecile. Gravity still works. You just want to ignore the parts that you find convienient to justify a piece of crap system.
If I can drop an apple and it falls slower than 9.8m/s2, then maybe we can talk more about surviving falling damage. But until that happens, and objects start weighing less than they actually do, then a fall of 200 feet will kill a human being 99% of the time, no matter how many fucking goblins he has killed.
>>44906111
Quibblezeoth, Lord of Petty Bullshit and Meaningless Arguments.
He is summoned when people bitch about D&D not being realistic.
>>44906103
Maybe in D&D universes, humans there are different in some subtle way from humans here and that explains everything. Now end your pathetic life, Craig.
>>44905858
>D&D books are already so massive and dense with rules text, do you really want a overwrought, detailed explanation for every minor fantastical element that isn't explicitly explained?
No. Because other systems manage to be believable without that much rules text. Hell, plenty even have falling damage rules that let characters be tougher than average without being completely goddamn immune to a fall.
> If so you are the autisty autist to ever out a tist.
Cute.
>>44906136
Change Hercules for Cadmus, Diomedes, Castor or any other greek hero that is 100% human though.
>>44906140
There are places where the sun doesn't fucking rise. And who says the phsyics of the world is EXACTLY the same.
>And if that ISN'T supernatural, then that's another tack on D&D's list of shitty lack of believably.
No. It's EXTRAORDINARY WHICH EXPLICITLY BREAKS THE LAWS OF PHYSICS BUT IS NOT MAGICAL WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULES OR THE WORLD.
>>44906140
>Yes, and it gives no explanation for why that is okay.
Doesn't need to. It says that this is how it works, so that's how it works. Same way it never really explains how the monk leaping 50 feet in a single bound works, or the fighter killing nine dudes in 6 seconds with a sword.
>>44906140
It doesn't need to explain why it's okay. You're basically completely shutting on a system because it's fall damage rules are not up to your standards due to how the game progresses.
>>44906147
Stealing that.
>>44905935
>makes zero sense
>narrative believability
I see that you missed my reply that you asked for, here I'll bump it for you >>44905791
>>44906124
Amen.
>>44906126
Not listed in 5th ed player's handbook, so it would have to be homebrew. The closest equivalent I can think of is a hand crossbow, which is 1d6 piercing. Given it's probable to survive a poorly-placed bullet (MY HAND!), that makes sense, as does it likely killing a bloke with a good roll. (Maybe higher odds of critting?)
>>44905862
>You keep ignoring me pointing out 'Setting detail!'
Yes, because it doesn't apply.
Until you provide me with an official WotC published setting that supports your theory.
We are not discussing your lame-ass rationalizations, we are discussing the rules at face value.
No fucking shit you can come up with a bullshit hand wave explanation for a glaring flaw in teh system, that doesn't make it any less a flaw.
> That's okay; you're obviously arguing in bad faith, given your refusal to acknowledge others explaining why the situation you object to is possible, how you've tried to reject any influence of non-natural possibilities in your gedanken demonstration(pic related), and how you refuse to allow the situation to drop. So there's no point in arguing in good faith with you.
(1) the non natural argument has been refuted by the fact that, once again, a 20th level fighter with NOTHING supernatural attached (despite the option being there, it is not required for him to survive the fall) can fall 200 feet and easily survive.
(2) Expecting me to "drop it" while you are still arguing is so obviously retarded I don't think I need to explain it. I guess any debate could be won that way. "Just drop it! Even though I'm wrong! If I stop arguing first, YOU'RE the loser who's still on about it! Lol!"
Please try again.
So how often are the fall damage rules actually used like this? Fly is a pretty common spell and magic item by level 20 so everyone should benfkying 24/7 instead of white room theory crafting.
>>44906219
>Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.
There you go you autistic fucking fagoot, now fuck off and play GURPS or Song of Swords.
>>44904289
You're right.
Hit Points are an abstraction of vitality, endurance, health, and luck, all wrapped into one.
They are NOT a magic shield. This is why razor-sharp spike traps in early editions of D&D were save or die.
A 20th level barbarian is not more likely to survive falling into a pit of lava he didn't see coming than a 1st level wizard is. They're both still flesh and bone. The difference in their Hit Points is not a measure of how they can withstand a deadly poison.
Their saves are.
>>44906219
Please tell me how this completely ruins a game for you when you have never played D&D and probably never will?
>>44905892
>All things don't exist for your amusement you fucking egocentric fuck
Oh wow you are clearly taking it way out of proportion. You are basically saying D&D's job is not to be amusing, or entertaining. Wait, isn't it a game, isn't that it's job?
> If you don't like the way it's set up then don't spend your money on it because it's clearly not for someone with as little imagination in their soul as you.
I have plenty of imagination. Coming up with bullshit explanations like "lol magic" over and over is not imagination, it's just laziness. A child can do it.
> Do you want fluff for why it works? Then make your own game world and create the fluff.
Again with the "homebrew it" logic. Stop. And again, find me a WotC published setting that supports your explanation.
> Do you not care? Then don't worry about it.
Clearly I do or I would not have made the thread.
> Do you need it but demand the company do it for you because you can't see anything open ended as an opportunity to shift the game to your tastes? Congratulations, you're not fit for roleplaying and worldbuilding.
No, I expect the company to make a competent game. They have a glaring flaw in it.
>>44905907
So if you use an ability from the UrPriest prestige class in 3.5 that cuts off connection with deities, you suddenly lose hit points?
Sacrificing believability for your plot's sake means your plot is shit.
And again, falling over and over and surviving everytime begins to stress "luck" quite a bit.
And it means player character.
>>44906179
Fine, Sampson. There's your 100% human. Odysseus, even, going up against crazy shit.
>>44906264
So instead of fixing the flaw in your games you decide to complain about it on the Internet when you know for a fact that it will do absolutely nothing at fixing the actual problem?
>>44905919
What about the part when falling damage increases by distance fallen, due to acceleration?
Oh wait, it only follows the laws of physics when it's convenient for the designer's self-masturbation. I forgot.
>>44906264
It's job is not to be amusing or entertaining to you, specifically. It has a general audience who don't fret over the explicit real world ramifications of the levelling and hitpoint system. Because the general audience aren't as unyieldingly dense as you.
It's not a "glaring" flaw. It's not even really a flaw. It is something you, personally, deemed important and bad when the vast majority of people just don't mind because it's a fantasy. Big strong fighter who's been in a lot of fights can survive a fall because he's big and strong. Works for me and I hate DnD.
>>44905910
By that justification, the PCs can do whatever the fuck they want and the entire suspension of disbelief that makes an RPG compelling, breaks down.
Or you want tyrantDM getting his way all the time, making him a shitty GM.
Either way, that assertion means nothing.
>>44905961
>Even in idealized realities a long fall is often lethal even to main characters.
Character above lv4 are not considered "normal" or "mundane" anymore.
While DnD and probably every d20 derivative game barring Mutants and Masterminds is pretty universally shit from an objective game design standpoint, OP's arguments attempting to prove it boil down to "I don't like the way this game is abstracted and that's why it's bad".
This is far from the most intelligent discussion about DnD's mechanics that /tg/ has ever had and I don't see there being much of a good outcome given that OP seems pretty entrenched in his position regardless of any counter arguments.
Sage for shit thread.
>>44906311
What about the part where acceleration works the same in D&D as IRL?
>By that justification, the PCs can do whatever the fuck they want
Uh no, they can do whatever the fuck the DM wants.
>>44905954
I actually like D&D quite a bit. I just find it funny that you dogmatic imbeciles cannot accept a simple flaw in the game as a flaw, rather than some masterful execution of "lol it's supernatural" bullshit.
>>44905967
>It's not fucking supposed to. D&D is not a game about belivability.
Actually it needs to be believable to create a compelling story. Otherwise it is a story only appealing to a child with no sense of immersion.
>>44905986
>The narrative is not "strictly adhering to logical, real world progression."
And that is explained by magic. Which is not present here.
>>44906023
>You are making it sound like the only tension in any story is derived from the fact that the hero might fall of a cliff every day.
No, but that is one potential source used in many movies and books, which D&D completely shits all over.
>>44906219
>Until you provide me with an official WotC published setting that supports your theory.
2nd edition PHB explicitly states that Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan, and Sinbad were all Fighters. Now go fucking kill yourself, Craig.
>>44906390
Oh come on now Craig, we all know that's a lie.
>>44906004
>many other games that don't have fall damage.
Honestly, that's better than D&D's shitty rules for it.
Other systems with fall damage rules, tend to have them make SOME amount of sense. Such as GURPS.
please stop responding to virt
>>44906296
Samson's another bad example because he was granted power beyond humans by a divine entity. Odysseus is also a poor example for martials because he was never much of a combatant, his talents lied solely in commanding and tactics, which doesn't fit into any martial class in DnD.
Martial heroes don't really represent any classical hero except maybe ones like Perseus who weren't successful because of their brawn or cunning, but thanks to his sick awesome magic gear the Gods gifted him (AKA the GM who usually determines the success or failure of martials in DnD).
>>44906442
>still playing the worst edition of D&D
>>44906040
>And regarding 'point out an established setting that uses this for me', or 'show me in the book', NO.
Then you have no argument, because it is not in the rules / canon, which we are discussing here.
> Because no author's going to waste time explaining that when they could be showing you where the gnolls and dragons are.
Then they are a poor author who cannot into versimilitude because they are too busy trying to get to the all important combat-combatcombat
> Similarly, the books don't indicate that it's not possible, so it passes.
So omission equals inclusion? What the actual fuck are you smoking?
Okay we get it. D&D is flawed. We all know that. It's just that railing about fall damage rules when level 20+ people are flying most of the time seems kinda odd.
>>44906077
I didn't see them walking through walls without the aid of magic in, say, Lord of the Rings.
It still needs to obey the laws of reality except where magic specifically exceptions it. deal with it.
>>44906432
Keeps him busy.
>>44906470
You know what should be smoking, Craig? The barrel of the gun after you stick it in your mouth and pull the trigger.
>>44906470
We don't have rules about digestion and horse shit formation in the core rules, but they're not ommitted in the world.
>>44906071
>Like in my setting. HP is straight up Meat Points. Humans are generally tough motherfuckers.
I don't give a shit about your setting. it has no bearing on the D&D rules.
> How levels fucking scale and the limits of human ability are up to the fucking setting.
Again, show me a published setting that supports your assertion that fighters are supernatural and thus have magical aid in falling 200 feet and surviving.
Oh wait, the rules specifically preclude that with antimagic fields.
Oops. You're wrong.
But how much damage does a Luger do? I'm not content with homebrew.
>>44904945
A human of higher than 5th level is LITERALLY superhuman in dnd
Past level 5 you literally are a hero of myth and legend. At level 20 you're basically a demigod
>>44906126
In d20 modern it dealt 2d6. Given a longsword still deals roughly the same damage in 5e as in 3.5, and the hp model is still mostly the same, I assume the damage is transferrable.
>>44906491
>magic specifically exceptions
>Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.
>>44906528
1d12-10 with 15-20 x1/2 criticals.
>>44904399
They're campaigning for Barnie.
>>44906526
>Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.
I am going to keep posting this until you get into your autistic fucking skull.
>>44906129
>"Average" damage doesn't count, considering your consistent use of 'WILL survive' - i.e. guaranteed survival.
http://anydice.com/program/b66
Is something like 0.0001% enough for you? Try learning dice probability moron.
And 20d6 maxes at 120 damage. A 20th level fighter in 3.5 usually had upwards of 150 hp, going by the DMG example NPCs.
>>44906136
>Please tell me how exciting it is for Hercules to be fist fighting dragons and wrestling Titans and then die because he fell out of the 5th story window of his palace.
I'm not saying he falls accidentally while cleaning his roof. I mean he's threatened with death, or at least risk of actually fucking dying, by a scorpion he's fighting near a cliff. He needs to avoid the cliff. He can't just fucking jump down there and avoid the scorpion.
It contributes to bad encounter design by having methods of escape that don't make logical sense.
>>44906644
>It contributes to bad encounter design by having methods of escape that don't make logical sense.
It makes perfect sense if the scorpion is sufficiently deadly. Kill yourself, Craig.
>Automatic death on falls
Yes, please, my swordsage specialized on throwing enemies would really appreciate it
>>44906153
>Maybe in D&D universes, humans there are different in some subtle way from humans here and that explains everything.
Emphasis on the maybe. Also it does not specifically say in the D&D books "these are really tough and supernatural humans by default, even a mundane fighter has supernatural abilities BY DEFAULT"
>>44906191
>It says that this is how it works, so that's how it works.
Nice circular logic. I declare a greatsword does 1d4 damage, and a dagger 2d6 damage. Why? Because I said so. Yeah, see how ethos-based arguing is retarded?
> Same way it never really explains how the monk leaping 50 feet in a single bound works, or the fighter killing nine dudes in 6 seconds with a sword.
The first is a supernatural ability and the second is a result of martial skill. Also due to the way battle grids work I don't even think nine dudes could be adjacent to a fighter for him to kill. But fair point, add Great Cleave to the list of things that are bullshit about D&D.
>>44906566
According to what?
>>44906644
You're okay with a Herculian figure surviving a literal colossal figure smashing his shield with a club but you're not okay with him falling off a cliff and surviving a much weaker impact?
>>44906199
>You're basically completely shutting on a system because it's fall damage rules are not up to your standards due to how the game progresses.
Because it's a symptom of a larger issue with the game, i.e. HP bloat, which we didn't even get to because people bogged down the discussion with idiotic assertions not supported by the rules or any of the canon fluff.
I bet most of these justifications aren't even part of their own setting, they are just creating them for the sake of this thread. Which makes them even less valid.
>>44906713
There is no maybe. Humans can cast magic, because they are inherently magical. They're different from real world humans who, yes, would probably die from specific kinds of falls.
>>44906713
>I declare a greatsword does 1d4 damage, and a dagger 2d6 damage.
You're neither the book nor the DM, so your words are as meaningless as your wretched existence. Kill yourself, Craig.
>>44906526
Because dnd is literally designed from the ground up with the idea that no human being in real life has ever made it to level 6.
Everything past that and you have broken the boundaries of real human possibility
>>44906238
>so everyone should benfkying 24/7
I think that would use up all of the Wizard's spells just to keep HIMSELF flying 24/7. Spells have a duration, something conveniently forgotten by caster supremacists.
>>44906249
I don't like either of those systems.
>>44906713
Well if all 8 surrounding squares are filled up and two are in one square (which is possible if they make a reflex save to squish or something) the fighter can use his greatsword to kill them all. Or the wizard can just kill 35 soldiers with a correctly placed fireball in the same timespan.
>>44906258
>you have never played D&D and probably never will?
Except I have? I've run and played in at least a dozen campaigns. Where exactly did I say I'd never played? Hell, I even enjoy playing D&D, I just don't lie to myself about the system having flaws.
>>44906814
>Except I have? I've run and played in at least a dozen campaigns.
Oh, yes, your "friend" told us all about that. Now end your life, Craig.
>>44906296
>Odysseus, even, going up against crazy shit.
When did Odysseus survive a 100 foot fall onto a hard surface?
>>44906302
Actually I was hoping it would turn into a discussion about the issues with HP bloat, related to actual game design as well, but I didn't put it in the OP because I didn't expect people to be spergburgers. Naive of me, I know. Maybe I didn't expect repeated idiocy and rationalization to avoid accepting that maybe, just maybe the greatest fantasy RPG of all time has a single tiny flaw.
But D&Dfags have heart attacks when that is displayed to them, so they must slap their heads and repeat "world is made of magic everyone is magic world made of magic" until the bad thoughts go away.
>>44906751
HP bloat makes sense when HP loss is explained as, and I quote from the 3.5e players handbook
>Hit points are how much punishment a character can take before falling unconscious or dying.
"Punishment" can be anything.
>>44906331
>It has a general audience who don't fret over the explicit real world ramifications of the levelling and hitpoint system. Because the general audience aren't as unyieldingly dense as you.
Explain why me analyzing a system's flaw makes me "unyieldingly dense." I fully comprehend and understand what you are trying to say. I just disagree with it.
>>44906814
>I even enjoy playing D&D
Then why are you making it sound like playing D&D is nothing but hell and not fun at all in all of your posts?
>>44906877
Fuck off, you are not answering even half of the arguments presented.
>>44906361
>Character above lv4 are not considered "normal" or "mundane" anymore.
Page number please.
>>44906373
>"I don't like the way this game is abstracted and that's why it's bad".
No, I just don't like games that don't make any sense.
>>44906603
Compared to the survival odds of the parachutists above, that's nothing. Also? More like (1/6)^20 for your trifling 20 damage assumption.
Again. Arguing in bad faith. You refuse to concede any points. You are the dunce here. Now go sit in the corner, OP.
>>44906939
>Page number please.
Which edition? Also, kill yourself.
>>44906374
>What about the part where acceleration works the same in D&D as IRL?
Because fall damage increases. Never mind, it's clear you're being intentionally dense.
> Uh no, they can do whatever the fuck the DM wants.
First off, whatever you quoted was not part of my post that you responded to, and secondly, if the DM says "okay you all suddenly explode because I don't like what you did," then he is a shitty DM. "Lol rule zero" is not a handwave in all instances, and doesn't excuse badly designed rules.
Also, if the game's solution to a shitty rule is to just ignore that rule, why not remove the rule? Seems easier and less complicated if you ask me. not that either of those things are on the D&D design priority list.
>>44906414
>Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan, and Sinbad were all Fighters
Except many of the myths explicitly mention divine intervention for these people. D&D does not by default say all fighters have divine intervention factored into their hit points. Do the Venn diagrams and you'll figure it out.
Also please show me where those guys survived a 100 foot fall and lived, WITHOUT divine intervention. Then your point will have some credence.
>>44906939
>Page number please
AD&D player's handbook page 22. Notice how a level 4 fighter is classified as a "Hero". Now that sounds decidedly above normal and not mundane.
>>44907051
>Level 8 is "Superhero"
>Level 20 fighters are "normal"
>>44906485
>It's just that railing about fall damage rules when level 20+ people are flying most of the time seems kinda odd.
Because that is explained by magic. The mundane fighter falling and surviving is the issue.
It's also a consequence of D&D's game design, not a choice and certainly not an intention. It's a secondary result. The devs did not sit down and say "well we want fighters to be able to fall 200 feet and live", that was an aftereffect. A consequence of HP bloat.
>>44906524
>We don't have rules about digestion and horse shit formation in the core rules, but they're not ommitted in the world.
Yet they still happen, just off-screen. Otherwise their bowels would explode. Whereas a fall that happens on screen, needs to be adjudicated. And when it is adjudicated by shitty rules that give no reason for the break from reality besides "lol fuck you I'm the game dev and you aren't", that tends to be an issue.
>>44905961
>We're not talking about simulation here. Even in idealized realities a long fall is often lethal even to main characters.
Nigga what? People falling off cliffs and whatnot and generally taking falls that 'nobody could've survived' then returning later is a well-established thing in the kind of idealised, only loosely based on reality fiction that D&D is in the vein of.
>>44906530
>A human of higher than 5th level is LITERALLY superhuman in dnd
Again, i would like a page number.
>>44906530
>Past level 5 you literally are a hero of myth and legend.
You can be a hero and still follow the laws of reality.
>>44906528
d20 modern had it at 2d6 damage, like all the other 9mm guns.
>>44907091
>The devs did not sit down and say "well we want fighters to be able to fall 200 feet and live",
They did, characters past the first couple of levels are not mundane anymore, specially if they are player characters since those are always special cases. After the first few levels they will not be affected by mundane threats anymore such as falling into a pit unless that pit is the abyss itself.
>>44907091
I'm almost certain the developers sat down and thought "Our fantasy characters should be super awesome" Dying from a 50 foot fall isn't fantastical.
>>44906554
>>44906584
>I am going to keep posting this until you get into your autistic fucking skull.
It doesn't mean anything because you cannot train yourself to fall 200 feet and survive reliably. Magic is okay because it's assumed to break the laws of reality. "I trained a bit off screen so now I can do anything" doesn't even work in movie training montages.
>>44907168
>You can be a hero and still follow the laws of reality.
Falling from 200feet or higher would create quite a big crater if the fighter is wearing plate armor or anything heavy, so yeah.
>>44906703
>It makes perfect sense if the scorpion is sufficiently deadly.
Yeah, if you're jumping into water. Otherwise it makes about as much sense as sticking a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger, because jumping 200 feet has the same result: death 99% of the time.
>>44907224
Extraordinary abilities are not necessarily things you train. They are often times inherent aspects of growth or progression in the character, or just things innate to the race that aren't a result of magic.
Turns out everyone has levels and hit dice as an inherent extraordinary ability. But I guess they didn't say as much in the rules text so it's a shitty game. Boo hoo.
>>44907224
You are not mundane anymore if you can survive that.
And you can train yourself to be above mundane in dnd.
>>44906738
>You're okay with a Herculian figure surviving a literal colossal figure smashing his shield with a club
No. That is why hp often represents luck / skill in dodging. If the game were more competently designed it would not need that abstraction, but it isn't.
>>44906764
>Humans can cast magic, because they are inherently magical.
Show me where the book says this.
>>44906765
Except I am a DM. I DM all the time. So if I declare that change in damage, it's okay to do that to my players? It's okay for beleivability and even game design? Suddenly a greatsword is useless. Uhoh... trap option alert!
Just like while fighting a dangerous beast near a cliff you might as well jump off and take advantage of the D&D system's fuck-tarded rules.
>>44906772
>Because dnd is literally designed from the ground up with the idea that no human being in real life has ever made it to level 6.
Explain where it shows that in the books, then.
And what happens at level 6 that makes you magically superhuman / supernaturally superhuman? I need to see where it says that passing level 6 is a supernatural ability. Because that is what we are discussing here. You cannot fall 200 feet reliably on good skill.
>>44906789
>Well if all 8 surrounding squares are filled up and two are in one square (which is possible if they make a reflex save to squish or something) the fighter can use his greatsword to kill them all.
Yeah I don't think that fits in the rules. And I'd be willing to bet if you lined up taht many men and drew a sword across all of their throats you could kill them all within 6 seconds.
And the fireball is explained by magic specifically. So please stop using that as an example.
>>44907273
...The part of the book where it doesn't restrict humans from being Wizards? If you yourself can conjure magic with naught but words and finger wiggling then you're magical.
>>44907043
Beowulf did not need divine intervention to swim in full armor while fighting sea monsters, nor to rip off the arm of the monstrous Grendel. I don't need to provide you with an example of any of those fellows surviving great falls, because I can provide you an example of a real man surviving a 22,000 foot fall.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Alan_Magee
>>44907295
Oh, so you have no idea what your friends are planning? GOOD. It'll hurt more that way.
>>44906932
Which arguments am I not answering? I'm still trying to read all of the responses here.
>>44906887
So if I give a character 1000 hp and make him basically unkillable, that's okay to you?
HP bloat is fucking retarded from a design stand point, it either makes combat drag on or makes damage need to escalate constantly. At least the developers finally learned what bounded accuracy is. At this rate, by D&D 10th edition we will have bounded damage / hp that actually makes some modicum of sense.
Eh, different systems have different assumptions when it comes to how tough PCs should be and how much reality should play into the way the mechanics work. D&D is pretty far down the scale on the 'screw the rules of normal reality' and sometimes that's enjoyable - worlds where with training and experience, you can get men who can survive extreme falls and take on giant monsters head-on and win.
Other times, other systems with different takes may be what you want - say, something like GURPS with bleeding and similar optional rules included, or one of the many systems made specifically to make a setup where lethality is high and PCs are very much bound by the rules of our reality and regardless of experience and things like falling and getting bitten by a huge dragon are very dangerous possibilities.
Different systems for different feels of game and PC, even if it's still the same basic fantasy setting.
>>44906978
I did not assume 20 damage. I wrote 120 damage, resulting from 20d6. Please learn the difference between dice of damage and points of damage.
> Again. Arguing in bad faith. You refuse to concede any points.
Because none of my points are wrong. And you have no evidence of what any of my "faith" is so please shut the fuck up.
>>44906987
Any edition. Quit stalling.
>>44907314
The rules themselves say that past level 5 you exceed human ability. That's the point where you start to reliably break Olympic records, slaughter 10 goblins in 6 seconds, bust down doors no human ever could, and also, I don't know, survive terminal velocity.
http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2
>>44907051
So "hero" is defined as "able to fall 200 feet and survive"? Hero is defined as automatically supernatural? Please find the dictionary that defines it that way. A reputable dictionary.
>>44907084
They are not normal, but they are nonmagical and thus are subject to the rules of physics. When killing a ton of goblins gives you bones made of fucking carbon nanotubes so that you can survive impact at 60 miles an hour, then we can talk.
>>44907396
Page 15, 5th Edition PHB. Now pony up for the PDF, you little cuckbitch.
>>44907160
>generally taking falls that 'nobody could've survived' then returning later
Yeah, generally after having been knocked unconscious or at least subdued in some way. Not just getting back up like nothing happened because hp loss means nothing until 0 hp.
>>44907240
How does that have anything to do with what you quoted?
>>44907440
>not normal
>still bound to rules of physics
English isnt your first language? You are not making any sense.
>>44907262
> But I guess they didn't say as much in the rules text so it's a shitty game. Boo hoo.
Exactly right. And an extraordinary ability is not supernatural and thus must obey the laws of physics ,as there is no explanation for it otherwise.
>>44907271
So... if I swing a sword a dozen times I arbitrarily become magical at some point? Fuck off.
>>44907295
Dangerous beast can jump off after you because it's tough as fuck, too. Stop being dense.
>>44907340
>...The part of the book where it doesn't restrict humans from being Wizards?
That is by training to unlock reality or whatever. Nowhere does it say that the magic comes from them, or that a human without magic is inherently magical.
>>44907168
Regarding players growing in power:
D&D, 5th ed, page 5:
"The adventurers grow in might as the campaign continues. Each monster defeated, each adventure completed, and each treasure recovered not only adds to the continuing story, but also earns the adventurers new capabilities. This increase in power is reflected by an adventurer's level."
Page 8:
"For adventurers, though, magic is key to their survival."
Page 196:
"Hit points represent a combination of PHYSICAL and mental DURABILITY, the will to live, and LUCK. Those with more hit points are more difficult to kill." (Capitalization mine)
And for claiming that fighters are perfectly ordinary: two words. Second Wind (explicitly heals what you're complaining about), Survivor, and the Eldritch Knight specialization.
>>44907362
>I don't need to provide you with an example of any of those fellows surviving great falls, because I can provide you an example of a real man surviving a 22,000 foot fall.
One man.
Now let me present you with the hundreds of people who have died by falling because that is the outcome most of the time.
Just because they CAN survive it doesn't mean a person can fall hundreds of feet and survive reliably every time.
>>44907509
>So... if I swing a sword a dozen times I arbitrarily become magical at some point?
Yes, because Dnd expects your world to be fantastical place where extraordinary events take place.
>Fuck off.
Same to you, its like you have not read a single Dnd book.
>>44907509
>Exactly right. And an extraordinary ability is not supernatural and thus must obey the laws of physics ,as there is no explanation for it otherwise.
This has to be a joke. There are tons of extraordinary abilities that are basically fucking magic or don't follow the rules of physics.
>>44907536
...If humans weren't inherently magical then they couldn't do magic. Just like humans inherently have strength but need to actually train to lift heavier things.
Jesus, not even virt is this dumb or contrived.
>>44907512
>virtualoptim, lord of the niggercucks
>ever ceasing to be as dense as a black hole
>>44907581
No, he really is that stupid.
>>44907417
> the rules say
> posts link to a 3rd party blog
Okay.
>>44907461
Well if you have the PDF why not post a screencap of that exact part?
>>44907487
Because "normal" does not automatically mean magical you fucking imbecile. Mundane can mean either not particularly special, or in the context of D&D it can mean lacking magic as opposed to being magical. They are different meanings with different implications, so you can fuck right off since you clearly cannot understand subtle distinctions.
>>44907541
>"For adventurers, though, magic is key to their survival."
This does not specifically say a non-caster character is inherently magical.
> "Hit points represent a combination of PHYSICAL and mental DURABILITY, the will to live, and LUCK. Those with more hit points are more difficult to kill." (Capitalization mine)
Please let me know when "the will to live" makes any fucking difference when you fall 200 feet.
Also please see above where I mention that luck starts to break down when you are able to fall 200 feet reliably.
>>44904289
D&D has never been meant to be realistic, though you're right in that applying game-based concepts like level-based progression to any narrative often creates a jarring sensation. This isn't a new concept, though. In fact, there's a term for it: "ludo-narrative dissonance".
Of course, point-buy isn't that much better because you end up at the same destination eventually, just in a more organic process made up of smaller, less-noticeable jumps in how far the the character can fall before dying.
