Why does Red always get the shit end of the stick?
And why does Blue always get the cool stuff?
Because the things that red excels at are a lot more obviously powerful than the things that blue excels at, so development teams tend to be more careful with red cards than blue. Blue gets a lot more mistakes and accidentally broken cards, because they seem fairly innocuous until somebody realizes how to break them in half.
Because blue is a cool color, and red is a warm color.
>>44843496
If anything white gets the short end of the stick
Red is a good color in every format except edh
White is bad in modern and just okay in vintage and legacy
>>44843496
>i don't know how to play against counterspells
blue is modern weak color right now, and only was good with a red card called splinter twin. that invalidates your point
>>44843496
>Blood Moon
>Magus of the Moon
>Price of Progress
>Charbelcher
>Dragonstorm
>Worldgorger
>Lightning Bolt
>Grapeshot
>Valakut
>Kiki-Jiki
>Purphuros
>Goblin Guide
>Fireblast
>Wheel of Fortune
>Goblin Sharpshooter
>Imperial recruiter
>Mana Flare
>Grim Lavamancer
>Splinter Twin
>Seething Song
>Red Elemental Blast
>Pyroblast
>Goblin Welder
>Daretti
>Gamble
>Final Fortune
>waah red doesn't get nice things!
>>44844281
>Blood Moon - 1994
>Magus of the Moon - 2007
>Price of Progress - 1998
>Charbelcher - 2003
>Dragonstorm -2003
>Worldgorger - 2002
>Lightning Bolt -1993
>Grapeshot - 2006
>Valakut - 2009
>Kiki-Jiki - 2004
>Purphuros - 2013
>Goblin Guide - 2009
>Fireblast - 1997
>Wheel of Fortune - 1993
>Goblin Sharpshooter - 2002
>Imperial Recruiter -1999
>Mana Flare 1993
>Grim Lavamancer - 2002
>Splinter Twin - 2010
>Seething Song - 2005
>Red Elemental Blast - 1993
>Pyroblast - 1995
>Goblin Welder - 1999
>Daretti - 2014
>Gamble - 1998
>Final Fortune - 1996
Of the 26 you listed, 8 were made in the last decade.
>>44844544
>older cards are more likely to be broken
You could say the same for blue, butblue's list would be much longer
>>44844643
every color gets broken shit, people only bitch and moan when it's blue
>>44844023
Pfffffffft
>>44844544
Twin doesn't count since they banned it in the format it was busted in
>>44844822
>banned cards don't count as broken
dude what are you smoking?
>>44844252
>a modern player
how adorable
what will you do after they ban your deck?
>>44844036
Ha!
>>44844544
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Outpost Siege
Abbot of Keral Keep
Thunderbreak Regent
Monestary Swiftspear
Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Hordeling Outburst
Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker
>>44844544
Thundermaw Hellkite
Chandra, Pyromaster
Goblin Rabblemaster
Past in Flames
Faithless Looting
Hellrider
Flayer of the Hatebound
Goblin Guide
Zealous Conscripts
Bonfire of the Damned
Anger of the Gods
Young Pyromancer
>>44844822
>Twin
>Busted
Shitter detected
>>44843496
DA FUQ OP?
Burn/Removal:
Lava Spike
Lightning Bolt
Rift Bolt
Disruption:
BLOOD MOON
Recursion (combo):
Past in flames
Creatures:
Goblin Guide
Monastery Swiftspear
80% of goblins ever printed
Artifact Destruction:
Shatter
+Many others
WAKE THE FUCK OP!!!!!! RED IS USEFUL.
>>44843496
OP YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE OF ...
>>44844281
>>44844544
>>44849106
>>44849372
>>44849761
BTW:
+Wheel of Fortune (Vintage All Star)
+Red Elemental Blast (Vintage tool)
+Pyroblast (Legacy tool)
Seriously OP is trolling.
>>44843496
"Blue can break the color pie and do anything because I say so." -Mark "Shekelatog" Rosewater
>>44849826
>Seriously OP is trolling.
You're very optimistic. Green player?
>>44843496
I had this problem recently, when trying to build Boros Voltron in EDH (on Tajic). Most of the deck ended up white, as I don't really know any good red utility, except the obvious stuff like the Blood Moon, Wheel, Twin, Kiki and such. Then there were some good cards that didn't quite make it, because they either didn't really fit (Goblin Bombardment). But all in all I have a hard time thinking what would put in Jaya deck, not enough options. The really good thing I've found in red was the artifact hate, and some incredibly great commanders.
>>44843496
because you don't think XR deal 1 damage to player is cool
>>44850601
In EDH for Red you have
Boom//Bust
Burning of Xinye
Blasphemous Act
Furnace of Rath
Fork
Reverberate
Wild Ricochet
Purpherous, God of the Forge
Krenko, Mob Boss
Goblin Sharpshooter
Outpost Siege
Chandra Pyromaster
Wheel
Anger
Lightning Bolt
Chaos Warp
Earthquake
Godo, Bandit Warlord
Insurrection
Reiterate
Urabrask, the Hidden
Detrivore
Crack the Earth
Starstorm
Rolling Thunder
Chain Reaction
Shatterstorm
Shattering Spree
Inferno Titan
Zealous Conscripts
Kekki-Jekki
Squee, Goblin Nabob
New Chandra
Aggrivated Assault
Sneak Attack
Blood Moon
Pyrohemia
Gratuitous Violence
Dictate of the Twin Gods
War's Toll
Stranglehold
Goblin Welder
Avalance Riders
Ruination
Obliterate
Decree of Annihilation
Koth of the Hammer
Skred
Daretti, Scrap Savant
Hammer of Purpheros
>>44844748
What broken cards are in green?
>>44851391
Oath of Druids
Channel
FastbondBirds of Paradise
>>44851391
Tooth and Nail
>>44851391
Life from the Loam
Golgari Grave Troll
Natural Order
Survival of the Fittest
Hermit Druid
Green Sun's Zenith
Protean Hulk
Earthcraft
Wood Elemental
Berserk
Invigorate
>>44849106
>outpost siege
>regent
>outburst
>sarkhan
Why are these shitty cards on the list again?
>>44851532
He was complaining that none of the cards were recent so these are all standard cards and eidolon
>>44843496
because wizards has always hated red. they view it as the "low skill" color that just turns everything sideways and bolts the opponent's face.
let's look at red's share of the color pie
>burn
heavily nerfed over time. the best burn spells in standard are a shock+, a bolt that only hits creatures and only does 2 if you haven't cast enough spells yet, and a 3 mana rare sorcery that no one plays.
>land destruction
nerfed for eternity (was nerfed because BLACK was too good at land destruction)
>non-permanent fast mana
nerfed for eternity. the good ones that wizards accidentally printed are banned.
>dragons
blue/white and blue/black have the best dragons in standard. no one plays the red/green dragon.
wizards hates red, and goes out of their way to keep it weak. compared to blue, red is a fucking joke.
>>44849761
>past in flames
red is the color that gives spells in graveyards flashback. that is strictly red's thing.
so why did they make snapcaster mage blue?
because wizards knew snapcaster mage was a good card, and they wanted to make sure red did not get it and it went to their favorite color. wizards deliberately chose to break the color pie to keep red weak and to keep blue strong.
>>44843496
Dedicated scrub color
Dedicated shitlord color
>>44843496
"Cool" as in?
Last I checked Red wasn't about any flashy maneuvers or making the other guy lose half his deck. Red's about blowing the other guy the fuck up, and they do that pretty well.
>>44851717
No they did it cause the pro who designed it was being a whiny cunt for like, 5 years and they wanted to be done with him
I'd have made it red out of spite anyways
>>44851858
tiago suggested it be blue
and maro just accepted it
because taking it away from red and giving it to blue fit his agenda. tiago had played right into maro's hand. and (more importantly) given maro deniability, so years later retarded blue shills like you could just blame everything on tiago instead of the wotc lead designer who ok'd tiago's design.
Blue is only good because of inherited design flaws from early in the game's history. Red is deliberately weakened because of its narrow, albeit powerful, inherited design philosophy from early in the game's history.
>>44843496
If red is so bad why is Scalding Tarn considered the fetch-land that grabs the 2 best colors?
Why is lightning bolt the most played card in Modern?
Why is Red the most played color in magic?
Seriously check out MTGGoldfish's Metagame breakdowns of legacy and modern and standard and count the number of decks with red in them.
>red snapcaster
Can you imagine how busted would be? Goddamn
>>44852292
Jund ***
You fucking retards do realize that Green is the real pet color of wotc, right?
>>44844544
Thanks for doing the leg-work that i was to lazy to do
>>44845924
>it's still good even when you can't use it in the format it is good in.
>>44852040
Let's see what fetch that becomes after the bannings.
Most damage, but I want to see your source on 'most played.'
Cheapest deck in all metas is always RDW. And it's simple.
>>44844023
>card draw and counter spells
>less powerful than haste and burn
![306b1db3c5[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/QxqFyJ7.png "306b1db3c5[1].png")
>>44853214
>>44853395
Is this on, like, a website?
>>44853405
http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
>>44843496
>Red
>Bad ever
Here is your (you)
>>>44851511 Wood Elemental
...pretty sure you're thinking of Red.
>>44843496
Red isn't that bad in most formats, but it's design space is tiny and what little it does get is constantly stolen and improved upon by the other colors. All it has left to itself is burn - and even that isn't 100%.
Black's -1/-1 is better, and there's a white burn spell for some reason.
My proposed solution is to give red two things mana rituals like seething song, and the ability to blow up any permanent easily. It's already done, it just needs to be done better. They've nerfed burn and red creatures, time for a little something in return damnit.
Red isn't bad but it's not very diverse. I like the additions of looting/backwards looting, temporary exile drawing, and even menace recently, but it doesn't come close to how well Wizards managed to patch up green from having tons of people whining about how underpowered it was in comparison to the other colors to being damn near better than blue in some formats.
>>44853684
>looting/backwards looting
That's blue's now. :^)
>>44853707
looting is blue
backwards looting is red
>>44843496
even outside of MTG, red colored and themed factions in games have a tendency to favor brute tactics of some sort. Whether it's direct damage abilities, powerful units, or just zerg swarming, they tend to be simple, but powerful. Meanwhile, blue tends to be more indirect, being traditionally considered a more calm, tactical color. Thus, it's easy to realize when something red is OP since it's just brute "i hit shit hard" factions, while blue tends to be harder since its shit has more complicated effects with more potential implications. There are a couple rare exceptions to this though.
>>44851671
To be fair, most of the elements of blue have also been nerfed, and at some of the high points of red burn as an archetype (sligh, goblins), they used shock.
The issues with red to me is how poorly it scales and that it doesn't have much (redirect spells I guess?) non-permanent interaction and somehow also manages to have 0 interaction against enchantments, because reasons.
>>44851717
>red is the color that gives spells in graveyards flashback. that is strictly red's thing.
>>44851391
According to MaRo, Llanowar Elves
>>44853707
>now
What the fuck are you on, Blue's been able to do it for a long time.
>>44851391
Aluren
>>44855143
In no format has aluren ever been broken.
>>44851391
It's literally the strongest two drop creature in all of Magic that you don't have to build around, what more do you want?
>>44844217
please kill yourself
>>44854062
the major blue mechanic that has been nerfed is counterspells. wizards that two mana was too little to pay for a hard counter. this is why the actual card counterspell was not printed in any modern-legal set, and has been replaced with cancel.
but wait - there are plenty of sub-3 mana counters, including one and two mana hard counters. yes they are conditional, but they exist and in huge numbers (including standard, which includes silumgar's scorn, a copy of the card counterspell if you have a dragon)
compare this to red. wizards has said that 3 mana is too little to pay for a land destruction card. when was the last time a sub-4 mana land destruction was printed.
peak eruption. red only gets to break the rules when it destroys other red decks. blue gets to break the rules all the fucking time. because wizards wants to keep red weak and keep blue strong.
>>44843496
because they decided to make creatures more powerful than spells
>>44856827
>the major blue mechanic that has been nerfed is counterspells
That and cantrips. You are also ignoring the insane amount of hate countermagic has gotten. They've actually toned down the amount of hate red has gotten since 9th edition (though to be fair the starting point of circle of protection: red is pretty insane.)
>blue gets to break the rules all the fucking time
Hard counters below 3 isn't breaking the rules though. They don't want land destruction to be viable (boomerang has also not been reprinted since tenth) basically ever, counters, deck manipulation and draw are basically the core of blue and deck manipulation is the only one they could really get rid of.
but yes blue has more fun stuff than red.
>>44851460
Tooth and Nail is only even remotely broken in EDH
one reason red's slice of the pie seems very small is that direct damage is treated by the playerbase as one or maybe two things if you separate damage to each and damage to target, however R&D seem to treat it as several abilities. damage to creatures and players (and now planeswalkers too) are different abilities that some times coincide, rather than restrictions on one ability. this is counter to things like counterspells or black removal, where only being able to target a subset of spells/creatures is treated as an obvious restriction/downside.
>>44858029
It was pretty fucking stupid back in standard, but yeah.
>>44843496
Black is the real shit color
>>44844217
White is fucking scary because it has all the answers. If it had more draw and tutor abilities it would be stupid broken.
>>44851895
I think Maro suggested for him to change it to red but Tiago said fuck that.
I dunno, Maro has that hard smurf dick but even he knew Snapcaster should have been red.
>>44849106
>>44849372
You're just naming random red cards at this point.
>>44851308
I can list random cards too:
Cancel
Dissolve
Phantom Warrior
actually this list has to stop short because there aren't many blue cards that are bad
Didn't a green red deck win a recent pro tour? And let's be real here. As far as solo colors go. Red is kind of a beast vs mono blue.
>>44843496
>Colors are factions
Get a load of this scrub
because red can't have nice things.
red knows what it did.
>>44853269
>drawing is good in mtg
>attacking and dealing damage to your opponent is not the most common way to win a game of mtg
l-lol?
>>44843496
The whole philosophy is that red gets to do everything that the other colors can, except fast and worse.
Instead of going wide with tokens, red primarily gets stuff like Spark Elemental: fast, cheap damage for 1 turn.
Instead of card draw, red gets impulse draw or whatever, so use em or lose em.
Instead of enormous costly fatties, red gets somewhat smaller fatties with haste.
Instead of Control Magic effects, red has Threaten and its cousins.
Red is and always has been the color of "it doesn't matter if it's worse as long as I have it right now"
What if I wanna be careful and methodical with my damage to target player?
What if I don't wanna get saddled with Red's dumb berserker gimmick?
>>44862231
Then don't play red? This is like complaining about having to go along with green's big creatures gimmick, or black's sacrifice your things for greater power gimmick.
>>44854598
How many times do we have to say i? Time Sprial deliberately fucked with the color pie.
That said, I think flashback stuff is R primary, B secondary, U tertiary. Red likes to recur instants/sorceries, B does creatures, and U does artifacts.
>>44844217
>Red bad in edh
>Not building a Krenko deck
>Not filling that shit with "Enters the battlefield" triggers
>Not adding goblin bombardment and barrage of expendables
m8
>>44853269
>I don't know how to read
more OBVIOUSLY powerful. Lightning Bolt and Ancestral Recall were part of the same cycle, because the designers didn't realize how busted drawing 3 cards would be.
Also, put together a deck made of nothing but burn and a deck made of nothing but counters. See which one wins more games.
>>44863768
No, Planar Chaos fucked with the color pie, Time Spiral was just "Every card is a reference to at least one other card."
>>44866080
Garfield totally knew how broken Recall was, Recall was printed at rare while Bolt was printed at common
There just wasn't any real reason to balance the colors
Why do the colors need to be balanced against each other?
You build decks, you don't build piles of colors.
>>44866121
Other than StP, White was literally dogshit for a significant chunk of Magic's lifespan.
I do agree that White has been crazy pushed in recent years, though.
>>44844281
>LIGHTNING BOLT
lol, what about the boons?! white gets gain life.
>red real underpowered
>>44866199
Yeah recurring instants and sorceries is only a thing red does
>>44866318
All of the boons are pretty good with the exception of white.
>>44866378
That's not flashback.
Blue used to get flashback; it also used to get direct damage. In Innistrad block, giving cards in your yard flashback was red territory, with the exception of Snapcaster.
>>44866378
Blue does it in a more sustainable way, while red generally does it for cheaper.
This is totally in line with the color pie. Its not out of character at all for a red mage to literally burn his memories to fuel the spell he needs to win this wizard battle.
Meanwhile, the blue mage is over there setting up some sort of value engine, but they need to put a lot of mana into it.
What even is the official flavor for the yard regarding spells?
>>44866383
agreed, but lightning bolt is by no means, "the shit end of the stick"
>>44866420
There were two cards printed in the Innistrad block that gave things flashback, Past in flames, and snapcaster.
>>44849106
>>44849372
Good in standard does not a good card make
>>44866635
Eidolon, Past in Flames, Goblin Guide, Swiftspear are all Legacy playable
Young Peezy is a straight up Legacy powerhouse
Faithless Looting can be ok
I don't know Vintage so can't comment on that, and Modern is a worthless format for kids and kikes so who cares about that
>>44866575
And prior to Innistrad, there were only two cards that gave things flashback, recoup and Dralnu. So it's not like there was a ton of precedent in the first place.
>>44851511
>wood elemental
what
>>44852292
it would have at least been the right color
>>44843496
white is the color that gets all the cool stuff they have gideon the most bullshit cards in standard right now
>>44851671
>no one plays red green dragon
Okay so at least I know now that you're talking out your ass
New topic:
Why are red players the whiniest, most butthurt Magic players in existence? Other colors have been shafted more, and for longer, yet they're nowhere near as vocal about it as red players are.
>>44867470
no one plays dragonlord atarka kid
>>44867118
>playing standard
So, should I buy her now? I'm testing her in Atarka and I'm going to side 2 of her. She'll probably go lower, but I want to be sure she won't go higher for whatever reason.
>>44843496
Red is exactly like the russians in flames of war. It's totally fine, but not a single fucking person that plays mainly them will ever admit that it's actually good/useful and will constantly bitch about it being underpowered when it's not.
>>44867636
Because we're filled with burning anger and emotions, anon.
The mono red deck is almost always a low-curve aggro deck with burn spells as the finishers. The decks that shut them down are slower, more controlling decks that take longer to win. So for the most part, games that you lose as a red player make all your cards useless and drag the game out. If you don't just concede, losing with mono red is pretty unpleasant. If I had to guess, the butthurt mono red players are butthurt because their losses feel really bad. It's an intended function of the game that red doesn't get things like Treasure Cruise, but imagine how many obnoxious, grindy games you could have won if it did!
Because the color pie is fundamentally broken.
Card advantage is blue's purview.
Every color should get card advantage.
Counterspells and stack interaction are the best answer to so many threats.
Every color should get some variety of stack interaction.
Red can keep copying/redirecting
Blue can keep counters
I don't know what the other three colors should get.
>>44869560
Every color does get access to card advantage. Not every color gets access to card draw. There's an important distinction that I suspect you might be missing.
I completely agree on stack interaction, though. Hell, Force of Will has always seemed incredibly red to me.
>>44869560
White does have the taxing effects, they should just put them to use more often. Or let them delay a spell. Black should be like its card draw: just like blue's, but now with more drawbacks (and hopefully more than boring ass pay N life). Don't know about green. I kinda like the idea of path to exile type effects being green like Song of the Dryads, maybe even as counterspells.
>>44869725
I think Green should get the ability to make spells on the stack hexproof and shit. Not countering other peoples' spells per se, but ensuring that theirs go through.
>>44866080
>what are Sphinx's Tutelage decks
It's kind of hilarious to beat people by using a deck that can't actually do a single point of damage.
>>44867118
Getting the most bullshit card in one of the weakest set in the last 10 years doesn't mean that you get all the cool stuff.
>>44867636
>whiniest, most butthurt Magic players in existence
>not blue players
Blue players are the one who whine each set that "control is dead"because they can't play permission deck.
>>44852292
Speaking of this, is Goblin Dark-Dwellers a possible Jund card?
Its a 4/4 menace and k-command, bolt, abrupt, whatever for 3RR
>>44870060
Blue was easily becoming a splash color until recently.
>>44869980
But the most bullshit card is colorless.
Everyone that plays Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger can go fuck themselves.
>>44852292
red snapcaster wouldve been like 10x shittier
>>44870192
Sorry it ruined your standard
Its fun to play in modern
every good red spell for snapcasters gets played in snapcaster decks anyway
>>44870236
It's okay. Oath has given such a huge emphasis on exile that Ulamog shouldn't be an issue much longer.
>>44870192
It's retarded how much stronger he is compared to Emracool
>>44870060
But control is dead, and I want to play permission decks.
Permission decks were actually fun to play against back when wizards avoided good instant speed draw effects like the plague but then they decided it would be a good idea to make it so there's no way for an average deck to play around countermagic and it became so awful that they decided to nerf countermagic again and again.
I still think red has it worse though.
>>44870060
Red players complain about their color being shafted constantly while red decks continue to win tournaments. That's the difference.
>>44853557
Two creatures off of tapped lands >>>>>> one guy off of untapped lands
>>44869980
sure battle gideon was bullshit but so was origins gideon
>>44870130
It's going to be sweet for sure. Add Exquisite Firecraft to the list of great cards to bring back with it.
>>44851717
Sometimes in a block, to give each color something to do, they have to stretch the mechanics a little bit.
In this case, red gets domain over sorcery, and blue over instants.
It's tough nuts but that's how it goes.
But Red does get cool stuff
Is White ever good?
>>44870130
>Krenko
Hnnnnnnng I hadn't seen this,
Must get one for my Krenko deck.
>>44866383
The actual order is U>B>R>G>W for the boons
>>44871380
If anything that just speaks volumes about the skill of red players
Honestly, Red has plenty of useful stuff. Dunno what you're on about OP.Then again, I play a Red/Green hybrid deck, so yeah.
>>44873101
Cant argue with that,
>>44872696
I need to get myself a copy of this card. That art is so cute.
>>44869940
He said a deck with nothing but counters. Sphinx's tutelage isn't a counter.
Because Red is the dumb muscle and Blue is the Fixer.
Know your role.
>>44874057
Sweet confirmation bias, bro
You can have the best of both colors if you join best dragon
>>44875760
>>44873101
R>B for almost all of the formats both of them have been legal in though.
>>44877543
I'd actually put Lightning Bolt and Dark Ritual on roughly even powerlevel, personally. Rit is probably a little more powerful in the strictest sense, but bolt is so much more flexible and universal that I think it balances out.
Basically, in decks that want Dark Ritual, it's one of the most important cards in the deck. Outside of those decks, Ritual is somewhat underwhelming. Bolt is almost always good.
>>44867470
Atarka Red doesn't actually play Atarka you moron
>>44871193
So there was a time that control deck didn't have enough draw to just stop everything, and had to think about what to stop and what to let thru?
All in all Red is fine.
Its main issue is that since its theme is mainly about Impulse and Aggression, that can sometimes narrow down what the color is allowed to do if they focus too hard on that. The other colors and how their themes always come off more open-ended.
>>44881770
That's not exactly it, but whenever blue wanted to draw cards or effect the board it had to (at least partially) tap out meaning the other player could do stuff for the next turn.
Also because they couldn't be very proactive during the opponent's turn if the opponent simply didn't cast anything then they couldn't do anything either. Both of those factors (which are really different elements of the same thing) meant that it was often correct for the aggro deck to just not cast things for several turns and fill their hand while maybe attacking with an elf or something.
Most of the time if a control deck had counterspell open and the opponent cast a 2 drop it'd be right to counter, so it was less 'thinking about what to stop' (although that obviously happened some) and more 'thinking about when to leave mana open'
>>44880842
but RG ramp often does.
>>44877693
Well put.
