What are your thoughts on Spellblades, /tg/?
Any games where they can be pulled off smoothly without becoming a middle point of uselessness between the spell and the blade parts?
>>44742751
As much as I know of spell blades, they are used for memorizing spells in my DM's system, and his DM before him. Any spell using class can store spells in the blade and use them on command instead of memorizing and praying to their God for spells. Once my Dad (DM) set off all of the spells he had in his intelligent sword at like 7th level magic user and blew up a whole underground city. Can be pretty useful and power as an intelligent weapon.
>>44742751
Fighter/Mages in 2E DND were pretty good
AD&D 2nd. Elf fighter/mages were pretty top-tier. The level cap was a bit of a drag, and the requirement to be a demihuman, likewise, however. I think you could do it in AD&D first as well, but the level cap was substantially lower if memory serves.
I prefer Swordmage.
Or Hexedge.
Or Cursestiletto.
Knifewizard.
Magic Warrior.
Runic Champion.
Zweihandernecromancer.
Charmaxe.
>>44742888
Battlemage?
Spellsword?
Nightblade?
>>44742751
First off: Magic-user as a role, in most games, is pretty bullshit. Being the mage says nothing about what you actually do but rather how you do it: with magic.
Similarly, most dungeon crawling games have everyone fighting, so while being a "fighter" is a little more specific it really doesn't say too much.
In terms of party roles, a character shouldn't be so much concerned with which realms of power they draw from so much as how they synergise their abilities to to aid the party.
Now assuming the SB is a damage dude the classic routes are:
>Debuff and smack
Drops a bunch of terrible hexes to weaken foes before beating them. This has the added benefit of making the encounter easier for the whole party. Has the potential to be incredibly useful if the DM has you going up against hoards of weak enemies who are vulnerable to spells since in a lot of these games such challenges can be conquered with the system's equivalent of "sleep."
>Buff up and smack
This guy enchants himself to do all kinds of cool stuff. If the system allows this guy might have a bunch of situational enchantments to modify himself for certain situations, such as cheap flight or water breathing spells or shit that lets him stab ghosts. Also a lot more fun to play when he can't just load up on all his buffs at once but actually has to strategies for the scenario.
Utility guy is also a really valid role a lot of the time. His magic isn't "powerful" but he probably has a lot of easy to cast and practical spells which keep bad situations from turning worse. He might save the full M-U power by doing the more run of the mill magic. He is also survivable so he can get into the thick of things and take risks without too much fear of death. He might stay behind to protect vulnerable objectives or party members while the burly-guy vanguards the cause. It all depends on the party make-up.
>>44742751
They're one of my favorite classes (called Magus) in Pathfinder, but I won't pretend they're not just more useless wizards.
They're definitely better than Fighters though. I prefer to go the "monster hunter" route with them, since their abilities to do multiple types of damage and debuff enemies tends to make them pretty versatile against stuff that has specific resistances or is just too tanky to fall to normal hack and slash.
>>44742751
I find that players are always drawn to them to make edgy and/or Mary Sue-type characters in a "I am a swordmaster AND a magic user.". Not that they could be done right, I just haven't seen it.
>>44742751
I've always loved spellblades and basically anything else that waved around a bit of sharp metal in one hand and some form of magic in the other. I just like the idea of having range and utility in magic to back cold steel for when things get close.
I just don't think I've ever really seen it done in a manner that is enjoyable, regardless of medium.
>>44744061
Magus is pretty fucking good in Pathfinder though. We have a minmaxer type guy in our group and he killed a young red dragon in just one hit dealing 147 damage with one attack on a crit.
>>44744126
My first and most precious character was a Spellblade, in a way. He was a knight in profession, but he has fire and healing magic to back him up, and it worked really good. I just liked being a magic knight instead of a plain sword n' board one.
Hardly a sue, though. He was super fucking tough to play.
>>44744126
I too have run into this problem quite often. Although less for the Mary Sue factor and more for the fact that players don't really give a good backstory/in-character justification for their character to know both. Generally most wizards, especially ones learning from a magic academy or the likes, are probably going to be middle-upper class people who don't really have a reason to take up sword training... and most people who know how to swing a sword tend to prefer physical talents to reading and study. If their martial background comes from being a soldier or mercenary, they probably don't have the money to learn magic anyway.
That being said, I've also seen a handful of situations where it works really well.
>Monster hunters like mentioned >>44744061
>Elite guards/bodyguards to nobles or other important people (works especially well if another player is an important wizard or noble of some kind)
>Character is from a culture/race where everyone has magic either due to genetics or it just being cheap/easy to learn, see elves in some settings.
>Character is in a "commander" type position where they have both mages and warriors working underneath them and need to be familiar with the basics of both
>Character is a smith/armorer who makes magical equipment and need to familiarize themselves with it's use to truly excel at his craft.
Anyway, I dunno. Like I said, justification is often a bigger issue for me than people playing Sues. Spellblades generally aren't as Sue as dedicated casters. Spellblades actually have to fight, whereas the dedicated wizard can just sit back, chuck spells, and turn invisible or fly away when enemies get close... and that if he hasn't used some kind of super magic to render the whole encounter moot before it begins. Spellblades have a tool box, dedicated casters have a fleet of heavy construction vehicles from the future.
>>44742751
Personally I enjoy the concept, but mechanically, systems that make them their own class can never do them justice, either making them ridiculously over the top, or outright useless compared to a more focused class. That being said, in systems that allow you to put together your own character builds, I very often find myself drawn to either the archetypes of a lightly armored warrior supplementing their physical prowess with magic, or of a heavily armored mage who can still hold their own in melee combat.
>>44744215
The same can be done with alot of classes if you have a good enough min-maxer. I've seen knifemaster rogues dual-weilding knives who can put out 5d8 (a potential 40 damage) per sneak attack at level 9. While flanking (and getting the sneak attack bonus on every hit) and making a full-round attack, that increases to a potential 120 bonus damage... at level 9. This is on top of what their weapon does by itself and any abilities the weapon has.
It's just a weakness of the Pathfinder system itself. The sheer mass of content bloat has lead to inevitable exploits and loopholes that people who don't understand roleplaying try to masquerade as "system mastery". A good GM will put a stop to that shit pretty quickly in the interests of everyone having fun.
For Magi in particular, if they're becoming too powerful, tone Shocking Grasp down to 1d4 instead of 1d6, in line with the other touch spells, disallow Magical Lineage as a trait, or perhaps just not let Maguses use Meta-Magic feats at all.If they're abusing Chill Touch, know that Chill Touch doesn't give them all their attacks in a single round. When Chill Touch says it gives you 10 touch attacks at level 10, for example, that means you can use it ONCE per turn for the next 10 turns. Not 10 times on a single turn.
>>44744493
The guy that plays the Magus knows what he's doing for sure, but it doesn't really bother myself or anyone else. He's been hit for some pretty good damage at least a few times despite having an AC of 35. It's my first campaign either way, so it's nice that it's more relaxed.
I use Ash my basic style archetype for spellblades. Just replace hardware with hedge-magic.
The dude isn't enough of a bad-ass to take evil in a straight fight and he isn't smart enough to out-mojo it. He is, however, desperate and crazy enough to use what bits of craft he has to turn his faulty mortal form into a temporary death machine.
He's the kind of guy that should not be an adventurer, let alone a hero. But whatever motivates him is enough to make him defy the normal flow of things. His skill set is choppy, slapped together and weirdly practical. He always seems to be falling behind but somehow makes it to the bitter end.
>>44744779
>I'd ask how the fuck you have an AC of 35... but you also never mentioned what level your party is at.
>>44744877
11 right now.
>>44742751
4e does them quite effectively in the form of the swordmage, the hexblade, and numerous other builds with certain feats, and even more refluff possibilities for other classes. Even the Spellsinger Essentials class is allright, though it doesn't really work QUITE as intended.
>>44744977
>though it doesn't really work QUITE as intended.
Explain.
>>44744995
They're a Dex/Int based Arcane Striker that relies on hitting with a melee basic attack in order to cast their at will spells, and instead of encounter powers, they get the powers that other wizards would get as encounter spells as daily spells.
>>44744995
I guess, like most essentials classes, it's just not as powerful as regular classes, and is a good bit more boring to play, and specifically designed to have less choice both in character creation and during play.
>>44745029
>They're a Dex/Int based Arcane Striker
They're listed as controllers, though they have hints of striker I guess.
The problem is, if you want a controllerey melee striker, there's this thing called the monk that does everything the Bladesinger does but better, puts out just as much melee debuff/control, is better suited to numbers/minions, and actually does respectable striker damage to book, and they even have listed as one of their implements "any weapon they're proficient with" so they can TOTALLY be fluffed as a swordmage/bladesinger/spellblade etc...
>>44742751
Well, in GURPS that depends on magic system you are using. With Magic as Powers they are quite effective unless GM allwos to mass-buy Innate Attacks and Damage Resistance, which kinda makes "normal" fighters moot. With normal GURPS magic - very possible, if you are able to cast through your weapon. And of course, there is Imbuements and Mystic Knight, whic are pretty awesome.
>>44744263
Nobles in one of my kingdoms learns magic as it is an autocracy; magic is used in battles and they are the commanders so learn battle skills and leadership requires them to be battle hardened.
Necromancer is practiced and undead troops used; the cult of personality of the ancient conquering emperor of the divided kingdom the clerics also serving in the army.
The army being made up of the elite nobles and freemen, with mandatory training militias in burhs defending the towns alongside the SWAT garrisons.
Setting is high magic, pretty much at least 50% of the pop. can cast low level spells, most use them as services in cities or towns; while peasants farm the land and herd for food.
Hearty bump
What about spellblade-type classes that aren't exactly BLADEs, spellaxes, spellhammers, gun mages, halberd sorcerer, etc
I've always seen spellblades wielding a sword in one hand and a spell in the other but I haven't seen things like axe-wielding battlemages and non-cleric hammer wizards outside of some very niche games
>>44747276
My favorite combo is spear + bow or spear + spell, with a small dagger as a back up weapon.
No shield and multifocus makes it a poor choice for a frontliner, but it´s not a third row nuker either. Ideally a rogue working as a sort of ranger/scout, but scouts require many other skills and it´s hard to level up enough in everything.
Quite fun archetype, but sadly pretty hard to come to be, specially if you want to be actually useful to the party.
>>44745068
> so they can TOTALLY be fluffed as a swordmage/bladesinger/spellblade etc...
Especially when one of the 4e Paragon Paths for Monks is literally 'Wuxia Swordfighter'
>>44744263
I made a swordmage once that was a farm girl, so she was used to physical labor and grew up a bit of a tomboy because she'd often help her father and brother.
Her father had saved for years, though, to pay for a good education for her as an apprentice to a local wizard. Her brother wasn't interested in it.
So she was tutored by the wizard for a few years, picked up the basics of spellcraft. Then her brother died in an orc raid, which understandably had an effect on her.
She put her studies on hold and joined the guard so she could prevent that sort of thing from happening again. And pay back the orcs. Which is where she picked up her martial training.
Since she's not a hulking amazon and didn't have as much combat experience as the other guards, though, she started experimenting with magic to enhance her combat abilities to make up for it.
The early part of the campaign was spent trying to avoid discussing her past, since she did kind of feel like she let her father down by not staying in a library like he wanted.
I characterized her as a bit lawful neutral, leaning a bit neutral good on some points. She loves her family, she loves her country and she wants to protect them and follow the law... But she's also willing to go against authority and do distasteful things in pursuit of that goal. The party was really off-put by her willingness to leave the dead unburied to chase down a band of orcs, for example.
>>44747332
Not that guy, but Soaring Blade is my all-time favorite paragon path.
I love my lightly armored longsword users. Especially with a little lightning thrown in.
>>44748122
man I wish my players could come up with good backstories like this one
hell i wish I could come up with good backstories like this one when i play
>>44744263
>probably going to be middle-upper class people who don't really have a reason to take up sword training
Noble being given sword training is not at all uncommon unless this is some kind of modern setting where swords have fallen out of use. If they can get into a magic academy too, no reason they can't think "hey, let me combine the two"
>>44747332
>>44748255
>Soaring Blades
Mah niggas! I was a pole-vaulting glaive wielder myself
>>44742751
Just use the arcane version of the swordsage
>>44744263
I've been working on a sort of cult of magicwarriors for one of my games. It's done in Savage Worlds, so the ability to make custom Edges makes it a lot easier.
Basically they're a convent of women who induct young girls who really wouldn't have any kind of meaningful future. Bastards, orphans, runaways, that sort of thing. Then they teach them occult magic relating to the angel they worship, and train them how to fight and be self-sufficient. Then when they reach early adulthood, they set them loose to do what they want because muh self-determination.
It's a little broody and angsty, but my taste for depressed rogue girls is sort of a running gag with my players so it all works out.
>>44751817
That's a pretty shit idea buddy
>>44751844
What are you talking about every idea I've ever had is absolutely perfect by virtue of me coming up with it.
>>44747276
I'd love to see a mystic knight added into tabletop.
They're a really fun class in Dragon's Dogma and they use hammers along with greatshields.
>>44751817
That was cool until
>Then when they reach early adulthood, they set them loose to do what they want because muh self-determination.
this. Rework it, I'd say.
>>44742751
>What are your thoughts on Spellblades, /tg/?
Painfully obvious. A wizard will want to know at least SOME sording, and even something as pitiful (in most high-magic settings) as setting your blade on fire would be BEATEN into recruits to the point those who failed to do it would be permanently disadvantaged because of it.
It just makes no sense in a setting with no anti-magic bias for this kind of overlap to not happen naturally.
I like Xianxia for that; Commanders are commanders because they command gud and magic at least decently.
>>44752197
>Rework it, I'd say.
I guess it could stand a few reworks. I mostly included that bit to explain why they're out adventuring in the first place, since it's meant to be a player "class". Was going for a sort of Nightingale thing where they're allowed to more or less do what they want with their powers as long as they understand that when they die they have to "come home".
I thought of making them an assassin guild. That or maybe a sort of monster hunter organization that tries to keep the general populace unaware of the more horrifying if lesser known beasties out there.
>>44751605
How is that not the middle point of uselessness between the spell and blade parts?
>>44742751
>Any games where they can be pulled off smoothly without becoming a middle point of uselessness between the spell and the blade parts?
Gurps.
>>44751817
This sounds incredibly gamist and lazy. From your description it looks like this order has no other purpose than to make more Spellblade adventurers. It's the paperthin disguise you have as background in a lazy MMO.
>>44742751
They have always been kinda my favorite class/archetype because I'm the guy who would go for a large variety of abillities.
Like with all magic users, the limit of what such a character can do is your magic system. A flash of light can blind an enemy to incoming strike, summoning ice spikes limits their moving or a shadowy aura obscures your movements.
I admit I don't know how to translate all of that to gaming because I come from a writing background, but if you get creative and don't force everything into DnD logic it should work.
And as bonus you can also use that stuff for a close combat mage, which also a cool class.
>>44752445
>unlimited spells per day
???
>>44752464
>le universal meme
>>44753159
The thread would be woefully incomplete without it.
>>44752423
Yes, that was obvious. Just have them be part of an organization that sends them on holy missions.
>>44742888
>Zweihandernecromancer
Stealing this.
All shall bow before Chancer, the feared Zweihandernecromancer, Lightningdancer, and charging lancer.
>>44753569
I don't know why I find this so funny, but I do.
>>44752782
>>44753159
And lets be honest.
It's just true.
>>44753489
Well this is good feedback. Good thing I'm not married to the original idea.
They're pretty nifty yo, Shadow of the demon Lord is a good system that strikes a nice balance between melee and Magic if that's the build you shoot for
>>44754187
>Well this is good feedback. Good thing I'm not married to the original idea.
I try. You're quite welcome. Maybe read into Delta Green, Hunter: The Vigil, Paranoia and Legends of the Wulin for possible organizations and reasons why they'd work with vastly different people.
Is the 5e eldritch knight any good?
The restriction to mostly abjuration and evocation seems really limiting
>>44744263
>players don't really give a good backstory/in-character justification for their character to know both
I'm very fond of gish characters, but it's indeed restrictive to find a good backstory for them. One of my best characters was a sorcerer (actually a bard mechanically) whose magic naturally developed in not aggressive ways, so he had to learn more mundane fighting to survive on the road.
Generally spellswords tend to only make sense in settings where full fledged wizards can't practice their art on the battlefields. The moment you can use magic as an effective substitute to swords, you get a rifle in swordfight situation: the fuck are you swinging a sword around like a pleb if you can use fucking magic?
>>44755463
In universe, magic is often an incredibly difficult art that few are really talented at. It takes decades of study to get anywhere, for most wizards.
In a setting like that, decided to go out and get some exercise now and then instead of learning Charm Person Variant #8 isn't such a bad idea.
Of course, mechanics rarely back that up, since PC leveling is divested from in-universe logic. Usually for good reason. (It would be boring as fuck to have to time skip a year every time you wanted to learn a new spell.)
>>44755678
>incredibly difficult art that few are really talented at. It takes decades of study to get anywhere
>character goes out to play instead of studying
Wouldn't that make him a failed wizard rather than anything? A gish seems like it would be more likely in a setting where magic is either too weak to stand on its own, or easy enough to learn to be a requirement for effectiveness. It's generally kinda hard to justify knowing many ways of doing the same thing when you could just learn one and spend the rest of your time improving on it or expanding onto other areas.
>>44750502
Why? The tale of a farming boy who saved up enough to buy a sword and armour then set forth to explore the world is a classic that never gets old.
>>44755678
Your rifle analogy is actually quite suitable
Even if your magic is MORE powerful then your sword you might want to conserve your magic like one would conserve bullets
>>44756396
That requires a setting where magic isn't easily renewable tho. No reason to pull your punches if you can just rest a few hours to recharge.
Half assed mage who happens to also be a shit warrior what could go wrong.
How could you make a magic heavy warlike kingdom? By magic heavy I don't mean having a lot of mages but soldiers being enchanced by magic in some way and being supported by sentient war machines while at the same time not being blatantly OP.
>>44756985
>magic heavy warlike kingdom
Magic artillery. Cannon of lightning, fireball catapults, etc. Always remember that range is king.
Your enhanced soliders idea could be cool for utility special teams, but if you do that for line troops in the end you're just gonna have fighters +5.
Is it easier to start as a warrior then go to caster or visa versa?
>>44756700
What if youre fighting 9001 adds before a bbeg
>>44757432
I'd think Warrior to wizard would be best.
As a wizard first, you'd have to unlearn practically everything you know about melee combat, plus you'd have to get in shape and train to effectiveness.
It's like a neckbeard armchair historian actually picking up a blade.
Sure he read about how it's done, but has never tried any of the technique himself.
As a warrior first, you wouldn't throw away any of your deep training, rather you'd learn how to expand on a situation that you otherwise would answer with, "Hit thing with thing."
>>44744216
>He was a knight in profession, but he has fire and healing magic to back him up
Nigga that's just TES
>>44757432
depends on how easy to grasp the magic on the setting is
i'm guessing if it's something that flows through everyone you could probably pick up and practice it from an early age, and leave former combat training for later, when you're old and strong enough to grasp the concept of fine melee combat or enrole as a soldier
if it's a harder thing to learn, learning the traits of combat first and accustoming your methods to magic could probably be a better way to approach it
>>44742751
Fantasy Craft has the Rune Knight expert class so although you have to start off playing a Mage at level 5 you can then take this class which makes you way more suited for melee combat. You don't progress as far in spell levels as a true caster, but in return you get good BAB progression and can carve runes into your favoured weapon and can activate them with spell points for added effects. As you level you get boosts to fighting with your rune weapon along with cool tricks like making an opponent weak to magic after striking them, using your weapon to dodge spells, using melee crits to gain back spellpoints, and your final ability lets you attempt to cast a spell upon scoring a hit.
It's actually a pretty solid version of a type class where you're actually still pretty good in both magic and melee rather than being shit in both, but this could be a result of the system too. Fantasy Craft in general is more about horizontal progression through more options and abilities rather than vertical progression through boosting your numbers.
>>44742751
Can you backstab with spells?
>>44742888
B...but senpai
What about Sigil-Shank?
>>44759015
>stand behind someone
>conjure pointy weapon
>backstab
Sure you can.
My first character was a Duskblade, with a backstory of being gifted with magical talent at a young age due to his lineage (father was a retired adventuring sorcerer) and tried to hone his talents. But he had to learn the spells instead of just having them occur like his dad.
Frustrated after one day of failed practice he got into a fist fight with some local kids and tried to burn their faces off, but didn't have any energy left and promptly got his ass handed to him.
So he spent the next 10 years training both his mind and body, trying to figure out how to cast spells while using a sword and in armor. It was only after an old friend of his dad came to visit (an elf duskblade) that he finally had it click, and after his dad passed away (died of old age) he left town and sought to continue learning and perfecting his skills by adventuring like his father before him.
>>44759015
In 3.p you can sneak attack with touch spells, so yeah, I reckon you can.
>>44755192
5e EK is fine, but it's not the "Gish in a can" people wanted. It's a Fighter, first and foremost, and it shores up it's defenses with magic, and has a more versatile, if not necessarily more powerful offensive skillset than your standard Champion.
>>44755463
>the fuck are you swinging a sword around like a pleb if you can use fucking magic?
Same reason the USMC trains HARD to use knifes.
>>44758229
>Nigga that's just TES
Not in-universe.
>>44758229
Nah nigga, that's Dark Souls.
>>44755678
Similar, but instead those who don't have the aptitude to be full wizards, are often trained into spellblades, to protect the wizard academies, and if need be, be an anti-wizard force. King of like the Circle and the Templars from Dragon Age, except everyone is fucking magic.
>>44758229
>tfw one of my last few dark souls characters was a sorcerer knight
i have no idea why i didn't pull off a heavy armored knight earlier
>>44742888
>Zweihandernecromancer
pic related
One of the subclasses in Elder Scrolls Online is Aedric Spear, meant I guess to appease those missing them since Morrowind. It involves a lot of wielding of sunbeams, shaped into lances of destructive radiance. I like the concept of a gish like that, momentarily imparting a quarterstaff with energy just long enough that a tap can be lethal.
>>44742751
in 3e D&D, you need to change multiclassing to gestalt with LA +2, then it works pretty well.
