The thing that started it all: Pic related, can't post link because system thinks it's spam.
tl;dr: Wizards have a different definition of what a counterfeit is compared to law and now strongarms stores into complying or they get their WPN rights revoked, meaning no more cheap product from Wizards.
It doesn't matter if said events are unsanctioned or even casual play. This hits Legacy and especially Vintage the most.
The resulting shitstorm that is currently raging on social media made Trick Jarrett issue an official statement - which was ill-received:
> Hey folks, I checked into this and here’s what I can tell you:
> First is an important clarification: Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Unauthorized reproductions of our game are a type of counterfeit, and we want business partners to help us in discouraging counterfeit Magic.
> I know that feels crazy, that we regard marker on a card as a counterfeit, but remove the visual accuracy from the judgment – they serve identical purposes when it comes to game play.
> Counterfeit cards are prohibited in sanctioned events, sounds like most people are on board with that. And based on Wizards’ Code of Conduct, we have started to ask stores not to organize unsanctioned events with counterfeit cards. And to be clear, no one we’ve communicated with recently has been suspended or punished as far as I know. We’ve talked to some stores on the difference between counterfeit and proxy cards, and are asking WPN to stores to work with us in protecting our intellectual property.
> Wizards wants partners in the WPN to make sure stores are welcoming environments, not use our characters in offensive images, and any number of actions that protect Magic experiences. We don’t condone counterfeit cards, and we expect stores to respect that. WPN stores are our partners and we expect them to help us protect our intellectual property.
> We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
This is just sad and as always WotC has an horrible PR.
They're putting the last nail to the Legacy coffin. Fuck the Reserve List.
>>44741702
>markered cards are considered counterfeit
I pulled an On Nixilis at prerelease and scribbled on a plains because I didn't bring sleeves. This would be disallowed?
>acknowledged how difficult legacy is to get into
>doesn't even bother suggesting a solution
Ok
>>44742048
Their solution is to buy their newest sets! Fuck those old ugly cards!!
Hahaha, fuck those guys.
so the company that sells collectible cards for a game wants you to buy the cards to play the game instead of making fake ones and playing their game for free. The greedy bastards.
>>44742048
Straight from the OP pic how Wizards defines proxies:
> • Proxy cards are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear.
Unless you fuck up your card really bad, you have to play it.
>>44742278
>what is legacy
>what are legacy prices
>what are legacy tournaments
>i didn't read the article completly
>>44741702
>> We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
What a fucking tool.
>>44742278
The company makes no money off the cards being proxied. scjews and friends do.
>legacy and vintage are hard to get into
fuck you very much for that clarification, jews of the coast
>we received information concerning some questionable or undesirable activity that occurred in your store
Sounds like some counterfeitfags were either ripping people off with fakes or were going around showing people where to buy proxies. It's not surprising WotC has taken a hard stance on the matter when I've seen more and more reports of scammers trading fake Gofys and Fetches for real cards.
>>44742421
Oh, you've seen reports? Lovely.
Meanwhile, not a day goes by without a thread here about how utterly awful and easy to identify even the best counterfeits are.
>>44742421
They streamed their Legacy Proxy tournaments on Twitch. That's it.
Remember, Sharpie cards are also "counterfeits", according to Wizards.
>>44742421
I actually play at the store in question, and it's literally just an unsanctioned legacy FNM-but-on-tuesday that they streamed on twitch.
I guess this would explain why my nearest store no longer scheduled its free Legacy and Modern proxy-allowed tournaments, replacing them all with Commander.
>>44742589
I'd also guess those events weren't highly attended so were cut unilaterally.
>>44741654
Just like gw
>>44742589
>Legacy and Vintage events canceled
>Replaced by Commander
Someone at Wizards just felt their dick twitch
>>44742352
dude, its like your complaining wizards doesn't support 2e D&D anymore. Its hard to find all the old outdated cards and find new people to play with? No fucking shit. Your MtG is dead. Long Live MtG.
Im asking with my most honest intent and not as bait or whatever the kids call it nowdays.
I understand that this move makes Legacy harder to play.
I understand that there's also the reserved list raping Legacy.
I understand that also Wizards doesn't have any intent to reprint older expensive cards that aren't in the reserved list.
All that I understand.
Now my question is, why would you want to play Legacy in the first place?
I read the cards and the powerlevel is so fucking high it's ridiculous.
When I see online legacy tournaments or the legacy tournaments on my locals, many of the players just sit there on despair and resignation because his opponent sacked him with a perfect loop on T1 and boom dead. No interaction whatsoever.
Decks prices are so high yet what does it matter when you're lose on T1/T2 anyway, you're basically playing "Flipping Coin" to see who wins.
It's very similar on Modern, the powerlevel of the format is so high that the games rarely go past T3.
On standard you lose after seeing at least half or 75% of your deck, it's full of interaction and there's no bullshit lol you lose GG loops.
Again, why you want to play that format?
>>44742483
>>44742540
level of severity often merits the level of response. If you're a casual fnm at a smal FLGS with MAYBE 20-30 people in it, wizards couln't care less whether or not you allow people to proxy their legacy deck.
Now if you try to stream that, get advertisement for your store, and promote playing Magic but without paying for the expensive cards; you're gonna get shut down. It's not really that much of a scumbag move to say, "hey, don't let people use a fake set of our game at your tournaments, it hurts our business". Whether or not Wizards merits this from the ridiculous Legacy prices is irrelevant. They have to protect their business from the people trying to profit off of it without paying their due. and I don't think the store or any store IS actively trying to promote proxies as a way to get business in their stores at Wizards expense, but its what ends up happening when you allow this sort of thing. A casual meetup between a group for some all-proxy Vintage that just so happens to take place at that store is a lot different from a tournament the store hosts where they say you dont have to use official product. Thats likely the exact reason its unsanctioned.
>>44742885
Play some legacy before talking shit
>>44742885
Fun. I don't wanna play in a tournament, I just want to have fun with my friends with some of the old cards. I don't wanna kill them in T1, what's the point of even playing? I wanna cast spells, summon powerful creatures, assamble crazy combos, get countered, have a backup startegy, have a laugh, I don't know. But I also don't wanna spend thousands of dollars in cards, I wanna pay a fair price.
Hell, even if you're gonna play in a tournament just ban cards.
Here's the general idea: 10.000+ cards, make a 60 card deck, go nuts. Get creative.
>>44742885
Modern often goes past turn 7-8. Its much faster then standard, but a turn 3 win is only possible with a select few decklists and requires a near-perfect hand. Legacy is hit-or-miss on how much interaction you will get. Decks designed to interact with and counterplay your opponent in legacy are some of the most interesting matchups.
That said, both formats are pretty aids right now, with combo being much more viable than aggro or control. Standard, on the other hand, is considered by many to be TOO slow, as seeing 75% of your deck every game is why most FnM's last all night long. I prefer standard, but only because i prefer longer, more grindy matchups. Ive had a lot of fun playing Modern, and I dabbled in Legacy a few years ago when it was still POSSIBLE to buy into legacy without being buttraped. Legacy however, I don't believe I'll go back to, and I dont believe Wizards will support going into the future. It will just be a neat pasttime for those who already own it. Largely, this is due to the many mistakes in power curve and card availability Wizards made in the years leading up to Magic's popularity. Legacy has an extensive banlist, and decks tend to be VERY selective on a a few archetypes or decklists. Its a format that does not allow for much creativity or invention beyond the occasional addition of MAYBE, MAYBE 1 card per set.
>>44742695
Yeah, but I mean, a store can still host a 2E D&D campaign, can't it?
>>44743135
>>44742695
PS I'm not >>44742352
>>44743135
yeah but you can't show up and run the Game with a DMG you pirated then printed out at kinkos. I mean, you can but that would be a counterfeit copy so you couldn't use it to run an officially sponsored game and if you were playing privately the publisher would still be pretty unhappy if they found out.
If you make sharpie counterfeits for casual play, you're appearently worse than Hitler, but when Jewcitygames does it, they'll fucking promote the paywalled video on the mothership:
> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-magic-update/daily-magic-update-2016-01-11
> 5. Todd VS. The Boss: Esper Control VS. The Gatewatch |StarCityGames.com | Todd Anderson and Tom Ross (PREMIUM SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED)
> Todd is playing Esper Con—blah, blah, blah. The real reason you're watching this is to check out Tom Ross' Oath-fueled Naya deck with not one, not two, but three Oaths featured, plus a quartet of planeswalkers (a fifth in Nissa, Vastwood Seer even). This is a premium article, but it's worth a view if you're a subscriber.
This happened just this fucking Monday. The irony is off the charts.
Time to become a judge and cuck wizards.
>>44743218
You can't do that and stream your sessions on twitch and ask for funding for it.
>>44743364
> Time to become a judge
> cuck wizards
They'll rape judges just as hard. Did you miss the whole judge drama on Christmas.
>>44742885
Have you ever, in your life, played Modern or Legacy? Because you seem to have no understanding of what's normal for either one.
>>44743041
>Fun. I don't wanna play in a tournament, I just want to have fun with my friends with some of the old cards.
Then you're not a Legacy player, you're a casual/kitchen table player. And despite what some may say that's perfectly fine.
>>44743390
>Enter store
>"WHAT'S THAT LITTLE JIMMY? THOSE -EVIIIIIIIL- NEO-NAZIES BURNED YOUR CARDS WHEN YOU CAME HERE? OH THAT'S SO MEAN! THEY DID THAT TO EVERYONE? YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU SANCTIONED PROXIES FOR THIS EVENT? HERE"
>????
>be wizards
>make overpowered legacy dual lands in test editions and first two core sets
>said lands are more powerful than any similar lands that will ever be printed
>promise collectors that legacy duals will never be reprinted
>ban proxies at official tournaments
It's like they don't WANT people to play legacy
>>44743390
>Did you miss the whole judge drama on Christmas
Please do anon, didn't hear anything.
>If you playtest standard with a friend in a sectioned store with basics with sharpies written on them the store will lose their sanction
Fucking WOTC this is too hilarious
>>44744612
I think he's referring to this:
>http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/statement-concerning-recent-suspensions-2015-12-21
>http://apps.magicjudges.org/suspended.html
Looks like some judges got suspended for leaking cards.
>>44742885
Fast uninteractive combo folds to Force of Will. If you don't want to lose to those decks, play any number of decks that run FoW.
(More relevantly, decks that fold to Force of Will shouldn't be showing up, because they suck.)
BUG Delver is probably the best deck if you want something highly interactive and resilient. Nothing in modern or standard is as close to having a 50/50 match up across the board.
Legacy games usually end very quickly after they're "decided". There's a lot less "players just sitting there in despair and resignation" than other formats. As soon as someone gets the winning advantage, they win.
If you want drawn out and grindy games, play Pauper. And I don't mean that disparagingly. It's a good format.
>>44744750
>Looks like some judges got suspended for leaking cards
Bit of an understatement.
They 3 year suspended half the judges in the region, for being friends on facebook with the judges who leaked the cards.
Hilariously enough the judge who turned them in also got suspended.
>>44742483
>>44742540
>streaming proxy tourney online
Well we all know where the stupid began then. Proxies for Vintage and Legacy are widely known by now. I'm sure wotc have a 'i don't see and hear anything unless you shove the fucking thing into my face'. Streaming it online for the world to see is exactly the shoving the fucking thing into their face.
>>44744838
You do know that WotC had articles on their own website talking about how great proxy Vintage tournaments are right?
>>44744860
Someone needs to send that to the PR guy.
>>44744860
>two dredge players
>In the same picture
I for one am going to make a bunch of photos of me playing with a friend in SCG's store with a proxy Legacy deck and demand they shut it down.
>>44744917
Make it photos of other people
>Maximum rampage
>>44744860
Probably a policy change after 2 years with the prevalence of fake cards.
Again. It's a you do it inside closed door, we turn a blind eye kind of thing. The stream is the thing that pushed the button.
>>44744937
>It's a you do it inside closed door, we turn a blind eye kind of thing.
Did you read their responce? if they hear about you letting anyone play with proxies in their store you will get your WPN yanked. Stores are fucking livid.
>>44744937
Yea man the fake cards were really killing WOTC's sales of Vintage staples.
I hear Vintage masters didn't sell a single goddamn pack!
>>44741702
>We know players love Magic and love playing its variety of formats, including Vintage and Legacy. Some formats are easier to get into than others and these two are hard.
I want to take a baseball bat to this faggot's kneecaps.
>>44744987
Vintage Masters was actually a thing, or was that the joke? I have no idea how well it sold.
>>44745023
>look up how well it sold
>MTGO only
I should think before I post
>>44745023
The joke, you literally can't buy these cards from WotC because they refuse to print more.
You either buy them for thousands of dollars from he secondary market or make proxies. Either way WotC does not see a dime of your money.
>>44742885
MaRo, get the fuck back to tumblr and stop pretending you're a little girl.
>>44745043
Or they're bullshitting on the "we don't see money off the secondary market" thing they always say.
>>44743055
Standard has given at least 1 card worth Legacy play in each set and summer product since Onslaught with the only exeption of BFZ.
>>44743390
I'm actually doing this.
>Oh shit nigga, you've got a badly misprint Mox Opal there, it looks like a Bonesaw, let me fix that for you.
>>44744397
They literally don't. Modern either.
They want you to draft. Standard is a compromise so people won't realize drafting is the worst board game you can play. Cards Against Humanity and Monopoly included.
Modern is a compromise so the retards who think Standard is actually a thing will keep playing and buying boosters a couple more years.
>>44745097
yeah so no worries, just get playsets of the best card from each set for the next 7 years and you'll have the worst non-synergystic goodstuff.legacydeck ever created.
isn't it fun playing legacy
>>44742619
Possible, it's hard to say as I've not once ever been able to make one. I should ask someone this weekend.
>>44742635
The majority of guys who have joined us have been content to build their decks with singles or at most a 2015 deck, then singles. Also, FNM Standard not firing for a month might make 'em go right back to flaccid.
>>44745137
what's wrong with drafting?
it's the great equalizer of this shit. $10 to play, everybody sees the same power.
>>44745080
They do, not directly, but making SCG rich means they can afford to buy a hundred cases of each new set from WotC.
>>44744957
Well who's the stupid asshole that started streaming it on twitch then?
>>44745170
It's literally a money sink. For the same $10 you can participate in many other experiences that give you a better value for your money.
Cube drafting, on the other hand, is fucking awesome.
>>44745326
Cubes cost hundreds of dollars to create. I also don't know anybody who runs cubes.
What are the "many other" experiences that will give me a better value for my money?
>>44745326
>$10
>better value
It's fucking ten bucks. What are you, poor or something?
>>44745137
>Cards Against Humanity
What's so bad about CaH
>>44745394
Drafting gives you at most 3 hours of gaming for $10. Videogames offer 20+ for $60, books 10+ for $5-$20, sports equipment depends on the sport but retard-expensive stuff tends to last a lifetime, collecting other shit gives you the thrill of hunting for actual collectibles instead of industrial pieces of paper printed by the millions, etc.
>>44741964
Even if the list didn't exist they still wouldn't reprint the cards.
>>44745443
>Drafting gives you 3 hours of gaming for $10
Is value about amount of time spent playing? Or quality? Or both?
I'd say, probably a mix of both; If I spend 99 hours playing a game I really fucking hate through and through, that's not my idea of value. If I spend 10 seconds playing a game I love, that's not my idea of value either. So while your points about time do have some merit, they are not complete in and of themselves.
>Videogames offer 20+ for $60
I don't own any consoles. My laptop can't run anything more resource intensive than hearthstone, which I don't even really play anymore. I also don't really like playing video games in general. I understand that other people do, and so for them it may be value, but for me it's not.
>books
I do find enjoyment in reading, and I also read a lot. However, I'm a grad student and so reading books and articles is almost part of my "job" and becomes tedious in the way that things you love can become tedious when you spend a large portion of your day doing them.
For instance, I might play magic as a way to take a break from my readings.
>sports, collectibles,
let me even offer you another avenue: movies.
these are all valid forms of entertainment that offer value. I don't deny this.
But, when I want to draft magic, I don't want to watch a movie. I want to draft magic. If I watch a movie, or buy a collectible, or play a sport, I will not have satisfied my desire to draft magic.
I understand that WOTC's focus on drafting and selling packs at the expense of other formats is bad for those other formats of magic. However, that's not what we've been discussing. We've been discussing relative entertainment value per dollar spent.
I find drafting IRL uniquely entertaining in a way that I don't find other activities entertaining. Therefore, $10 is good value for me in order to partake in that entertainment, even if it's only for a short period of time.
tl;dr that's just like ur opinion, man
>>44745434
Jokes get old quite fast. Also a lot of people consider the "dead babies" as the pinacle of humor and joker card that goes with everything. Not that I dislike edgy, but their attempts at edgy are not funny.
>>44745675
I had more fun just hanging with friends and shutting my brain down, laughing along.
Honestly though, apples to apples has more depth to me.
>>44741702
Time to counterfeit even fucking harder with better looking cards.
>>44745443
With better sets drafting gives you the chance to get a good card. Drafting modern masters was amazing.
BFZ no. No BFZ is shit and I won't give it money but I do like drafting.
