The upcoming banlist update will have a huge impact on the format and the secondary market. If you were given a choice between three different ban/unban strategies WoTC could take, which would you choose?
Status Quo is God:
>Ban Summer Bloom
>Ban Goryo's Vengeance
>Ban Eye of Ugin
Only Safe Unbans:
>Ban Summer Bloom
>Unban Stoneforge Mystic
>Unban Ancestral Visions
Total Overhaul:
>Unban Ancestral Visions
>Unban Bloodbraid Elf
>Unban Dread Return
>Unban Green Sun's Zenith
>Unban Preordain
>Unban Second Sunrise
>Unban Seething Song
>Unban Stoneforge Mystic
>Unban Sword of the Meek
Should I buy my Lilis now or nah?
>>44703418
I'd take the overhaul. It's the only logical choice.
>>44703418
Total overhaul, then reprint Force of Will, Counterspell and Stifle in the next set
#yolo
>ban eye of ugin
Why?
On a more serious note
>Unban Stoneforge Mystic
>Unban Ancestral Visions
>Unban Dread Return
>>44703544
>>Unban Dread Return
good one
>>44703544
>unban dread
>format just becomes legacy 2.0 circa 2011
Does Day's Undoing exile itself while resolving?
>>44703418
> ban goyf
>>44703554
You are aware how easy it is to hate out graveyards?
>>44703567
Yes
>>44703581
The last thing this format needs is another non-interactive deck.
>>44703515
Eldrazi and Tron are on the rise, hating out format staples like Twin and Jund. In order to prevent these venerable pillars of Modern from being killed off, Eldrazi and Tron have to be neutered somehow.
>>44703418
I welcome the unban of Dread return.
Please let this happen. The overhaul must commence!
>>44703621
>Eldrazi and Tron
>hating out Twin and Jund
?
>>44703621
Tron needs to be neutered because it's somehow even more unfun than eggs to play against.
Woohoo, you've assembled your hexproof exodia, now summon Karn, Sky Dragon and automatically win.
>>44703418
>Ban Summer Bloom
This fits in with Wizards normal bannings as it would prevent the consistent turn 2 win from amulet bloom, but doesn't totally cripple the deck
>Ban Goryo's Vengeance
For it's one of showing at a SCG open where it actually did good until the obvious weaknesses of the deck showed in the final match? No
It's also extremely vulnerable to graveyard hate which has made a massive comeback recently, and can often be activated at instant speed
>Ban Eye of Ugin
The card does nothing out of line, it just has a cutesy interaction with another legendary land
Personally I'd ban Twin just to force decks to bring back Kiki-Jiki to give the opponent an opportunity to actually react with the deck and also lessen the impact of getting 2-for-1'd off of playing an enchantment
>>44703418
>Ban Summer Bloom
I'm gonna be so disappointed in Wizards if they make that ban
The Amulet Bloom deck is inconsistent and rarely gets le turn 2 kill. In addition it rarely puts up significant results. I mean damn no amulet blooms in the recent top 32 of SCG besides one guy at 16th place.
If it gets a ban it will only be because of community outrage and all the pros not wanting to adapt to another deck
>>44703418
>Unban Seething Song
>UnbanRite of Flame
>mfw I can play Dragonstorm again
Too bad Wizards hates fun, intuitive decks that actually take skill and patience
>>44703653
Not sure about the hating out Twin thing, Twin can still win as soon as Tron assembles.
Tron has effectively hated out Jund, though. Tron is such a fucking braindead deck, that every new player flocks to it. Jund just can't compete with a turn 3 karn followed up by an Ugin.
Not sure what the fuck the Black Eldrazi deck is doing. That deck looks like shit.
>>44703657
Most Tron only runs 1 eye, new eldrazi deck has yet to really be constructed
Bloom, Twin, Infect, Affinity, Burn all kill quicker
Youre a fag, i bet you play twin
>>44703418
>no option for ban nothing, reasonable unbans
Modern babbies, pls
>>44703677
>consistent turn 2 win
>doesn't totally cripple the deck
I don't know which statement is more wrong
>>44703727
The problem with the combo isn't the consistency, its the fact that it turns the matchup into a slot machine. There is literally zero you can do about it short of a godhand counter. No interaction, no racing, no effective playing around.
You literally just say "well does he have it?" and sit there watching the deck cream itself. You literally can't "adapt" to the T2 combo.
>>44703757
Nope, I play gifts, though I'm thinking of shifting to a mono blue brew.
>>44703819
Remand, hand disruption, path to exile, spell snare, terminate, mana leak, two bolts all stop primetime on turn 2
>b-but i dont wanna run those cards
>>44703657
>a huge robot flies in on turn 3 and starts exiling permanents
>this is less fun than literally going to eat lunch while a guy combos you to death with a pyrite spellbomb over the course of half an hour
Someone's never actually played against eggs.
>>44703896
>be on the draw
>remand, terminate, mana leak no longer work
>>44703896
Bloom can play 3 Prime Times on turn 3. You can't answer all of them.
>>44703819
They need a turn one counterspell to counter that deck, and that shit aint gunna happen
>>44703928
Describe how likely it is to have that happen
Then realize if you stop summer bloom they literally can't unless they had 3 amulets in play by turn 3
>>44703896
I guess you missed the recent event where T2 Primetime ate a Remand and still went off. The Remand just prevents multiple copies of it.
Completely beyond the fact that the combo can shrug off counters, "Have premium counters an mana in your opening hand or outright lose the game" is a really shitty counter strategy.
>>44703962
>just play blue or you aren't allowed to win in modern
>>44703985
>it happened in that one event so it's really unfair because it happens all the time
Might as well ban every combo deck because boo hoo it's not fun :(
wish sword of the meek would get unbanned, at least then i can feel invested in the format
>>44703923
>eating a satisfying home made meal is somehow less fun than losing to a completely uninteractive pile of cards.
Wrong on all accounts. I bet someone's never even cooked eggs.
>>44703944
Cough spell pierce Cough
>>44703995
>play the best cards in order to win
Why's this a problem?
Either you keep banning combos until the end of time, or you print actually good counterspells.
Your choice, whizzards of the coast
>>44704020
see
>>44703819
You literally cannot do anything if the specific counter and mana isn't in your opening hand, and even that isn't a guarantee.
This is on T2. You Bloom players are seriously delusional if you think thats an acceptable line for the format.
>>44703653
>>44703657
Both Tron and Eldrazi destroy Jund, and I heard that Eldrazi (seeing as it's basically a really big midrange deck) was also good against Twin. If either deck becomes popular enough to unseat Jund and Twin as the kings of Modern, then I could see people clamoring for a ban, just like with Bloom and Grishoalbrand.
That was the point of the first option, to keep the meta-game as static as possible to avoid bad fee-fees.
>>44704129
I guess tron is fine with you though right?
Please tell me tron is balanced and fair for the format
>>44704110
I believe a format should come down to decision making not rock paper scissors for it to be healthy
>>44704158
>tron
>turn 2 insta-win combo kill
>uncounterable
You seem like a knowledgeable and experienced player who understands the differences between decks in the format and I respect your opinion
>>44704158
You have to be fucking trolling. If you scoop after a T3 Karn, the absolute best case for Tron, your deck wasn't going to be winning against anything in the format anyway.
I cannot comprehend all of the hate that Karn gets, he's either an overpriced Lili, or he nukes a land and then dies to Bolt. Im sorry your Abzan CoCo Chord brew doesn't run the ability to deal damage before T6.
>>44704193
You literally cannot do anything if the specific counter and mana isn't in your opening hand, and even that isn't a guarantee.
I hope you got that fulminator mage in the top couple of cards in your deck or you instant scoop to karn
>implying blooms combo is uncouterable
Feel free to stay in your jund, twin, tron hugbox format forever
>>44704183
You decide how you build your deck. You decided to be weak to combo to be stronger elsewhere. That's magic. You aren't going to have a good matchup against everything.
>>44704205
>I cannot comprehend all of the hate that Karn gets
Tron player, neither can I. Don't get me wrong, he's a great card but half the time he's a 7 mana vindicate.
>>44704223
>You literally cannot do anything if the specific counter and mana isn't in your opening hand, and even that isn't a guarantee
lol, I was kidding before but you really have no idea how this format works if you think that karn's insta-win vs. every deck in the format, or even any.
>I hope you got that fulminator mage in the top couple of cards in your deck or you instant scoop to karn
please, anon, you're killing me
>>44704089
I guess everyone is just needs to sideboard 4 of those in a deck and stop being babies.
>>44703418
>Ban Summer Bloom
>Ban Goryo's Vengeance
If these happens I lose most respect for Wizards. It would just pretty much confirm that this meta is the meta forever in any new decks will just get shot down
>U/G CoCo Illusions
on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being blistercoil weird/paradise mantle and 10 being Tron/Jund/Affinity/Burn, how bad would it be?
>>44704323
Wizards has made tons of pointless bans in modern.
At least unban Stoneforge, she would make people want to play element swords again. Ancestral Visions would be good too, it would help control keep up with other decks, you can't even snapcast it, and you can discard it from suspension with Wasteland Strangler now. So what's the issue here?
>>44704379
If you brew really hard and hit the meta at just the right time, you just might have a 4 on your hands.
>>44704418
I'm thinking Aether Vial instead of CoCo. It might work with enough counter magic, I'm drunk enough to brew it RN
What happens to the format if nothing is banned but preordain is unbanned?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/11-01-16-illusions/
I want to do something with either Devotion or more counter magic
>>44704532
Storm, Bloom, Grixis and Twin become much better
>>44704532
Twin, Scapeshift and rogue combo decks get better? Maybe U/x control shells too, though Think Twice offers good competition for it in slower decks.
>>44704532
All decks that run Serum Visions (or god forbid, Sleight of Hand) stop running Serum Visions and become that much better.
>>44704556
>Maybe U/x control shells too, though Think Twice offers good competition for it in slower decks.
There's three UW players at my LGS and none of them play Serum Visions, so I'm not sure they'd play Preordain.
>>44703653
Tron absolutely assdevastates Jund/Junk and other midrange decks.
Eldrazi will become a turbo meme because before it came around it was: Tron beats Jund beats Twin beat Tron.
But Eldrazi beats Jund as easily as Tron, beats Twin as easily as Jund, and is the only mirdange deck that can actually beat Tron with minimum luck.
Sorry I didn't see this in the thread, but when are they posting the new bans?
>>44704551
>>44704556
>storm
Probably good considering its effectively dead right now.
>grixis
Probably good that a fair deck gets buffed.
>scapeshift
Another dead deck, also good.
>Twin
Also good since its starting to struggle, might become too oppressive though.
>Rogue Combo Decks
Could always use variety in modern
>Bloom
Well five out of six isn't bad.
Also ad nauseam would get buffed from this most likely.
>>44704603
A week and 9 hours from now.
>>44704630
Ah, thank you, I thought it was going to be tonight how people were talking!
>>44704205
>You have to be fucking trolling. If you scoop after a T3 Karn, the absolute best case for Tron, your deck wasn't going to be winning against anything in the format anyway.
Tell that to Jund. They just won an open because motherfucking Tron didn't trip him over on the T8 as usual.
>>44704671
>Tell that to Jund
Yes, we all know that tron is good against jund. That doesn't make anything that anon was saying true. Every deck has bad matchups, but Jund being bad vs Tron =/= turn 3 karn is invincible
>>44704298
Yeah in a format with fast decks that rely on resolving non creature spells it makes sense to run some number maindeck or sideboard
>>44704671
>Deck runs maindeck Relic
>Deck is good against Jund
>TRON MUST BE AN UNFAIR DECK
>>44704693
Jund has access to beast within and even Hero's Downfall would work
Isn't Jund just supposed to thoughtseize or duress it from their hand tho?
>>44704850
You can't Thoughtseize the top of their deck
>>44704871
Beast, Downfall, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker
>>44703418
Of those three, I would go with the total overhaul IF Force of will and Counterspell were added.
Hell, I think that force would be fantastic for the format.
Speaking of Spell Pierce, how the fuck has Spell Pierce never had a reprint? I can at least understand their dumb reasoning behind Inquisition and scry wasn't made evergreen till just recently, but Spell Pierce isn't exactly a standard-breaker or anything, I don't even know that I'd run it over Negate in standard, it's just a decent ass spell.
>>44704937
Same reason disfigure hasn't. It costs like a dollar and that's fine
>>44704925
>Force goes up to $200
>>44704949
For now at least. If they don't push out a reprint eventually though that'll change.
>>44704954
It would require a reprint, so force would have to go down
>>44704974
It's been five years. Commons don't tend to get that much more expensive, especially out of the first set of the block. Daze is only 2 bucks or so.
>>44704984
and then it would go up because 5x the people need it and it was only printed at superpremium mythic rare SCG edition
>>44704850
>Beast Within and even Hero's Downfall
Jund in principle is about card advantage and outrageously overwhelming your opponent with more cards. Classic Standard Jund cast Blightning, traded 2-lifepoints for +2/+2 on a Putrid Leech for a chump block or 2 extra damage to the face, or cast Broodmate Dragon. In Modern Jund Dark Confidant accomplishes this, Bloodbraid Elf used to do this job as well. If you Vindicate a Karn after its dropped and shot your best permanent or a Wurmcoil Engine you are doing the opposite of what Jund wants to be doing.
Fulminators exist in Jund to attack Tron. The Duresses should slow down Tron long enough for a Fulminator (hopefully) to come online and put them enough turns behind to ensure you kill them with. Yes, all these cards are 1-for-1 but it is the best option available, you have to slow them down and hope your stupid functionally vanilla weenie creatures kill them before they actually get to 6 lands and Wurmcoil you out.
And even if they drop the Wurmcoil, you have a chance, you've drawn so many cards that you swing in for lethal, they block with the Wurmcoil, and you proceed to 2-for-0 yourself to kill your own creature to make sure they don't gain any life.
"Jund" in Magic terminology refers to a color combination as does "Junk". But Jund and Junk can also be said to represent a deck philosophy - drown the opponent in card advantage.
>>44704954
And my wastelands keep going down in value. I knew I should have built miracles instead of DnT.
In all seriousness I bet they would print it as a rare, and put it in at least one duel deck/event deck. Probably with really shitty cgi art too.
>>44705010
You know, except for Preordain pre-ban or Serum Visions now. Modern's only getting more and more popular and card prices just keep soaring. All I'm saying is Spell Pierce is an easy staple that they've had, as you said, 5 years to reprint and they've blown it the entire time.
>>44704925
Force of Will would make getting a high blue card count matter, so it wouldn't be as good for decks that run mostly colorless like Tron. It would also keep combo in check.
Yes, Force of Will makes blue the "best" color BUT it is tolerable because it gives "fair" decks(blue control, merfolk) a reliable way to fend off really broken things.
It might even make Bant and Temur good color combinations. Right now if you want to run a good midrange or tempo in those colors, you usually have to either do fast Delver or do a combo, Force of Will reprint would open more options.
It would also be great for Legacy, since more Force of Will in circulation = cheaper prices. If Force of Will was reprinted enough to get down to $20, something like legacy merfolk would be affordable even for poorfags.
>>44705045
They should just print it at uncommon again. Then make it a DCI promo so you can have a 100% promo DnT deck
>>44705062
Blown what? It's a cheap easy to find common
>>44705073
To be fair merfolk still is pretty affordable. If they reprint aether vial and cavern of souls it would go back to being like $600
>>44703418
If I was the one who had final say on ban/unbannings in Modern, I'd go with the safe bans/unbans of:
>Ban Summer Bloom
>Unban Stoneforge Mystic
>Unban Ancestral Visions
Until WotC figures out a way to reprint older cards to be made Modern legal WITHOUT impacting Standard AND provide enough supply (in the form of packs and secondary market supply) to meet the demand of the reprint being made Modern legal, we probably won't see many more unbannings after this point and everything else that'll be banned from here-on out will be things that break the 3 "rules" of Modern:
> 1. No consistent or time-consuming kills before turn 4
> 2. Decks need to be able to interact with each other in all colors in some fashion
> 3. Many strategies will be viable (or at the very least, playable) in some fashion
To me, the obvious answer to the reprint problem is toreprint specific cards - Like Force of Will - in Modern Masters, with a large print run of the set, as though it were a normal block run.
>>44705073
The main thing I hear from people against force(aside from the price), is that it makes twin absurdly strong.
The thing is, if you make twin to use a force to protect the combo, if makes them go all in on that plan, and really hurts the tempo/control game.
That's my beef with the deck. Its tempo that you can never tap out against. A lot of the time, Bolt, Bolt snap bolt swing is enough to win.
>>44705078
Are there even promo Aether Vials? Flickerwisp too.
I swear, if Stoneforge gets unbanned, I'm just going to play Illnesses and Minor fees in modern.
>>44705162
There's an FTV version, which is close enough for me. It is getting really close though
>>44705062
>Modern's only getting more and more popular
Modern is dead at the store/paper level. I say this based on 4 stores dropping Modern events entirely.
The only people who played were people who had the cards and got them at the ground level (when Scalding Tarn was $12-$50 and not the $100 it has been for the past year). Eventually 2 or 3 people stopped showing and the format could not run. No new blood due to price barriers ensures that the format died.
Wizards can claim attendance numbers all they want. The reality is that the Legacy bug is infecting Modern, and it may spread to Standard. The statement, "These Moxen cost X dollars" is a prophecy for, "I'm going to have nobody new to fucking play with in a couple years."
>>44705078
Wasteland has been printed as a promo three different times.
>>44703727
Amulet Bloom won an SCG tournament last week.
>>44705148
Modern Masters every year, with selected Vintage and Legacy reprints
Large print run
Put more moderately expensive modern staple reprints in Commander decks
>>44703479
>these will never be modern legal
>bolt, seize, path, and goyf are fine though
>>44705203
I don't know where you're playing but modern is huge here. Just last Friday we had a tournament with at least 32 people in attendance most with tier 1 decks. The stores also hosting a huge tournament in February an estimated 200 people are going to show up.
>>44705235
Modern's huge at my store too, we have 20+ people show on Tue/Thur/Fri. Legacy thursday almost always fires, but its never above 10-12 people. Standard is kinda dead.
>>44705265
Standard is for plebs, modern is for plebs that wish they could get into legacy and legacy is for people that are upset they didn't play magic when it first started so they could play vintage
EDH is for 10 year olds who realized they could make an actual deck with all the shitty cards they pulled from 2 year old packs they drained their allowances on or neckbeards trying to flaunt their money
>>44705226
Leave the Vintage reprints to Commander decks only and not in Modern Masters and you've basically hit the nail on the head for how WotC fixes the reprint issue AND makes them money AND probably lowers barrier of entry to Modern itself.
>>44705235
Probably in his speshul snowflake store where everyone is playing edh and pauper with no modern or standard in sight.
>>44704850
To reinforce >>44705038, essentially, Jund might "have access" to those cards, but they don't fundamentally help you win the game, and don't cause your opponent to lose the game.
Jund has a game plan, and adding in cards that don't advance that game plan just bogs the deck down. The object of Jund v Tron is to maintain pressure and pursue card advantage.
If you secure both of those, you can win (which is why Relic is such a middle finger and the strength of the matchup), but if you can't, you have no functional way to win and Tron grinds you out through inevitability.
Running things with the explicit purpose of "dealing with Karn" actively hurts your ability to secure those two things, and thus inhibits your ability to win the game while the Tron deck maintains inevitability (topdeck another Karn or a Stone vs topdeck Goyf or Bob). Not only that, Jund is a value based deck, so having a set of something that doesn't play into value actively diminishes the strength of your topdecks (in a deck that lives off the top of its deck).
Two major concepts in card games that people tend to have trouble with:1) inevitability and 2) recovery. 1) A deck stuffed with fattys and the means to get them out can grind for an incredibly long time. And 2) "dealing with" a deck's threats without actively advancing your own wincon doesn't actually prevent them from winning the game. This is why prison decks have to be so totalitarian or totally bust.
>>44705235
I live in a city of 100,000 surrounded by other cities of 50,000 to 100,000.
Larger cities where I assume you are are going to have good attendance simply because of your population and density. You also have access to judges, stores that are able to justify having employees organize Magic singles sales, enough people buying product to weather the loss of sales due to online purchases, and all the good things that make things run.
However, out in the styx it's a different story. Stores have 2-3 employees who cannot weather the impact of online sales as well. FNM is one night and if you're lucky there will be another Magic night during the week. Standard is necessary because otherwise too many formats cannibalize the already meager player base.
I'm so grateful for kitchen table Magic players we never see. Because they're probably keeping the stores in the black way more than people sitting in the store are.
>>44705289
Seems about right. Where would you place pauper and cube on that list?
Eye of Ugin is not ban worthy at all. many reasons have been previously mentioned. Just because a card increases in price during modern season or the popularity of a new deck archetype does not simply warrant the banning of a card. if that was the case amulet of vigor would have been banned the first time it because a tier deck.
>>44705346
People that don't care about competition in any way and simply want to have fun with a group of large friends. Pauper players tend to be college students with little budget but still want to have fun for 40$ and cube players are oldfags that want to have fun with their gamer girl wife and all their 35 old friends that want to reminisce about their childhoods and the golden, nascent ages of traditional gaming while laughing around a kitchen table while drinking beer
i got kinda depressed thinking about that
>>44705299
I just imagined the Jund and Tron matchup like a man fighting a mountain cat furiously stabbing the thing with a knife praying it doesn't get a good bite in and that knife hits something important or it submits to the multiple wounds.
>>44705346
I honestly don't think Pauper is played with enough frequency amongst the places that actually play it for it to get boring. And even if it was, it's so damn cheap that variety is immediately accessed for no more than $30 for a new deck. The pauper environment to me represents what a eternal format like Legacy and Modern should be: solved, lots of variety, and ease of accessing any deck - Legacy and Modern lacking the latter.
Cube is for people with really good memories. A cube draft becomes infuriating when people are constantly asking what everything does.
As for the Cube owner it is split into two camps: powermax and custom cube. Powermax designers want to test a new weapon in every environment just to see the variety in destruction whereas custom cube designers want to find a means to install a waterslide into every practical aspect of life.
Had to sell my modern pool a few days ago (Non Mutavault Melfolk, Infect, Jund/Junk, Twin) because my friends stopped playing and playing alone was not as fun as it used to be. I got around 3200$ from all my cards (Tarmos and Lilis included).
Did I fuck it up?
>>44705674
No. I would have tried to get more but you got a decent amount. I guess have fun with new games now?
>>44705674
>tfw in too deep to pull out now
JUST
>>44703576
If I could only choose one card to ban, it would be goyf. The format needs him gone.
>>44705742
I'm planning on getting into Force of Will with my friends. They just like me got tired of Wizards shitty decisions of lowering donw the level of the game and their questionable and non-existant support to the players.Dont spit on me plz
I need a bit of help
I'm going to be buying 6 packs of a set to draft with and also because I like opening packs, I know it's not as efficient as buying singles I just like to roll a lottery once in a while. I just need to know which of these sets has the most value in them and thus better to pick up. And also which one has the best limited environment.
>OG Modern Masters
>Zendikar
>Ravnica/Guildpact
>Champions of Kamigawa
>>44705766
A card whose sole purpose is to turn sideways will never be the most egregious problem in any eternal format.
>>44705776
I think the motivation to do things for the company of others is among the best reasons to do anything. I'm fairly certain the only dollars Wizards is getting are the from newbies, idiots, or those with an addiction. I fit into the latter although I stopped buying Sealed product five years ago.
>>44705674
Yes
>>44705225
I'm aware and it did terribly this week
My point is that it's inconsistent and can be hated against
>>44705776
I don't really care
>>44705792
>which of these sets has the most value in them
>which one has the best limited environment
Given that sets are designed to be drafted with 24 packs with 8 players, you can't really accomplish any goals you are aiming for.
Historically every pack has an expected value (EV) of $1-$1.5, which means it doesn't matter which packs you buy the best option will be the pack you spent the least money on.
>>44705776
From all the games available in the world you switch to a shitty weeb pandering game?
Disgusting pleb now you really fucked up. Better give me that money dude, having too much money hurts your brain as i can see.
>>44705792
Literally MM1. It's a set that was made to draft and has a shit ton of value. Anything Kamigawa has shit for value, Zendikar has fetches and guide, Rav and Guildpact have shocks, bob and not much else.
Anything that unbans Stoneforge because I want to sell mine
>>44705875
>historically every pack has ev $1-1.5 so the best option is the cheapest
Idk man that sounds like the opposite of how I'd judge a pack
If you're picking packs to gamble, you should buy the ones with the highest possible payoff, not the cheapest ones, because a small victory is just as bad as a loss, if you only pull 1.50 worth in your pack, you've pulled nothing, better to risk a little more money for the packs that really have payoff cards I think
>>44704616
>>Twin
>Also good since its starting to struggle
Christ. Do you idiots ever listen to yourselves?
Alright, I was trying out a UWR pyromaster/mentor build on cockatrice.
The mana seems horrible, you are shocking yourself all over the place. The lack of hard counters also hurts, Having Path, Bolt, Helix, and snappy is nice though.
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Mana Leak
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Serum Visions
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
1 Electrolyze
1 Spell Snare
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Gideon Jura
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Remand
This is a super rough version.
Am I just wasting my time here?
>>44706145
Mentor is really slow, and when you can't chain cantrips together it's not going to be 18 damage the turn after its cast. I don't think an incremental advantage deck that slow is really good enough for modern.
>>44706145
Mentor is just Bolt fodder in Modern. If I was gonna play UWR Midrange I'd run creatures like this:
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
1 Stormbreath Dragon
>>44704616
>its starting to struggle
Just kill yourself.
>>44706242
To critique further, Mentor is going to come down as a 2/2. The next turn it generates 1 or possibly 2 tokens, and attacks for 3-4 damage, but since you're on average only drawing 1 card per turn and running a lot of reactive cards, you'll run out of gas quickly.
If you want to keep brewing i would guess starting with every cantrip in modern, as well as more pro-active cards you'll do better because you would be able to capitalize on the token production
>>44706331
Gitaxian probe is almost necessary so you can still get some value when Mentor dies on the spot
>>44706346
I forgot all about git proble, that should be in there for sure.
>>44706145
If you want to build around Mentor and Pyromancer, I feel like you'll want as many cheap spells and cantrips as possible.
Assuming no budget, I'd look at something like this:
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of St. Traft
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
4 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
1 Ajani Vengeant
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Desolate Lighthouse
A lot of cheap spells, a bit extra oomph in the form of the Geist, and Lighthouse to turn lands into more spells if you get dragged into the late game.
>>44706275
If maindeck Relics become popular Twin is gonna have a bad time
>>44706542
Why? Because they blank one snapcaster mage
>>44706527
That looks really fun to play.
>>44706552
You act like that's not a big deal
>>44706542
Not as bad a time as Jund. Or Grixis midrange.
>>44706636
It's not when Twin can combo off at their leasure in g1 and the post-side games aren't that much more in Tron's favor. You can only board in 4 Rending Volleys and Nature's Claims, half of which Twin can counter. Cryptic commanding Karn and Ugin is a thing, boarding Stony Silence and Blood Moon is a thing, Cliques and bolts are a thing.
Give me that fucking Dread Return. There's enough fucking graveyard hate to go around.
>>44706666
It feels like when someone brings in relic against a goyf deck. Yes, it has an effect. No, it wasn't really that relevant.
>>44706687
There's no cephallid colosseum, careful study or cabal therapy. Let dredge be a deck
>>44706666
Warping Wail will be a thing too
>>44703565
>Dredge
>Good without ichorid
????
>>44705533
not sure where my pauper cube lies. probably closer to custom than powermax(well as powermax as pauper can get)
>>44706804
Need force, and there we go
>>44706804
Bloodghast does a good impression.
>>44703581
Dredge is the designated kike slayer.
Modern is the kike haven.
It's a known fact that a gang of WASP dredge players violated and nearly killed the whole R&D families.
>>44706811
>Bloodghast
>With all the grave hate
>And no paradise
?????
>>44706775
Yup that's a card that does things. If only there was a colorless 2 drop that was good against twin that's been around since scars block
>>44706825
What point are you trying to make? That dredge has trouble with grave hate? The lack of undiscovered is made up for by this not being a bazaar deck
>>44706811
2 damage thats not always hastey is pretty far removed from ichorid
also the ichorid death triggers are pretty beneficial, bloodghast lacks that
>>44706845
Let me explain, since you don't play dredge:
BG is much easier to remove than Ichorid and generates less value than ichorid without paradise (savage is total shit in general, wow B tapped land with dredge 2! So good).
BG was used in next level since hate wasn't that good(still great, but not busted like lmao rip) and next level wasn't all out combo and wanted some level of stickiness and aggro to it, so it was good, easy triggers on bridge and being easy to return with your paradises.
Without paradise, ichorid is better, since it's a hasty 3/1 that will guarantee bridge triggers.
Just so you get an idea of how vital ichorid is to dredge: The deck was called "ichorid".
TL;DR: BG is bad. Dredge is a bad deck. Vintage dredge is ok because cheap and turning the game into a best of 2 (since you'll nearly always win g1).
>>44706850
With sac outlets/fetchlands you can get multiple bridge triggers off of a Bloodghast. Ichorid is still good, but it shines a faster dredge engine. Without careful study/colosseum/bazaar is way harder to get black creatures in the bin fast enough. Bloodghast comes back once a turn pretty reliably.
>>44706837
>bladed pinions
>good against twin
Get out of town
>>44706888
Even getting rips won't make you right anon. Modern has no good sac outlets that are playable in dredge, at best you'd have zombardment style recursion.
To have dredge you need:
1. Dredge keyword
2. Bridge
3. Flashback sacrifice (Cabal>Return) AKA from the bin plays
4. Fast drawing to fill the bin
5. Low profile hate
In modern you lack:
Cabal
Low profile hate
Fast drawing to fill the bin
Good from the grave plays
>>44706881
I play vintage dredge extensively, I can tell you that in that version i cut ichorids before bloodghasts. Replaying undiscovered paradise doesn't come up all that often, you only need to make 1 or 2 land drops to get the job done. Ichorids timing restriction makes it much slower because you need to naturally draw it in order to trigger on turn 2, while my bloodghasts just need to be in the top quarter of the deck.
On top of that, if someone has a RIP or grafdiggers cage out i would much rather have a Bloodghast, actually casting it and barb ringing it is a legitimate way to win through cage.
>>44706888
what sac outlets?
last I looked the best options available in modern were that vampire that melira pod used to run
>>44706922
>I play vintage dredge extensively
>In the version with paradises AND fields is better than ichorid
If you did play dredge and understood the deck you'd know that it's 100% unviable outside of formats with cabal therapy and ichorid.
>>44706925
Yeah id say you're trying to assemble that, gravecrawler and some bridges in the yard. Moderns slow enough, it might be playable
>>44706943
It's not.
Go ahead try it against the wall and count how slow it is without ANY interaction from the other player.
>>44706939
I think you're really caught up on something irrelevant. I'm not arguing that you can build bazaar dredge or colosseum dredge in modern. I'm arguing that there is a dredge build possible in modern. It's obviously not going to run 13 lands that tap for mana and 6 free spells.
>>44706967
There won't be one anon.
If there is it WILL be a meme-tier deck like vengedredge. You lack what makes the dredge mechanic good.
Because dredge is a shit mechanic in a RiP world.
>>44706980
dredgevine is dank, famiglia
>>44706997
Not even dankest meme, dankest meme is weird paradise.jk, it's junk.
>>44707010
i mean dredgevine is an actual good deck
>>44707016
>Dredgevine is an actual good deck
>Hasn't won shit since forever
Dredgevine is, was and will be a shit deck.
>>44707035
ok twin player
>>44707041
Prove memevine is a good deck.
>>44707041
haha you actually do play twin :v)
>>44704020
Now we're getting somewhere. Fuck combos, this game is Creatures: The Tappening and the sooner you faggots accept this the sooner we can join the wonderful Maro NWO's glorious new dawn of TCGs.
I'm going to masturbate so hard when Amulet is banned
>>44707052
Meme you you memeeating memehead
>>44706145
play slowblade instead
you can actually draw cards
>>44705792
you're better off buying singles if you want value. If you want to actually draft somthing, get 8 friends and buy a box and don't be an idiot.
R/G tron is mindless as fuck but it's doable. Personally Wizards shouldn't ban Summer Bloom or Goryo's Vengeance, but leave them unbanned, unban Seething Song, and print better counters and something to hurt nonbasics or multiple lands entering the battlefield a turn. Unban Ancestral so control has a nice boost. The alternative is to just keep Seething Song banned and then ban Summer Bloom and Goryo's Vengeance, since they're guilty of all the sins Storm is.
Tl;Dr if they don't touch Seething song or Summer Bloom and Vengeance they're full of shit and probably don't care that they're guilty of the same things they said made Storm unhealthy because the latter two win with creatures
>>44704323
>new decks
Those decks aren't new, certainly Goryo's isn't. The only thing that's new to this game is you.
here's my prediction for a banning/unbanning
>ban summer bloom
The fact that bloom titan CAN go off turn 2 is concerning, but it's really the consistency that will do it in.
>unban stoneforge mystic
>ban batterskull
Mystic is fine so long as equipment doesn't get out of hand and batterskull (and jitte but modern will never get that) are the two most busted equipment out there. The biggest case for unbanning is that it's getting a promo reprint which makes no sense and breaks the pattern of gp promos being modern legal.
>>44707253
>so long as equipment doesn't get out of hand
Wizards policy tends to be to ban the enabler rather than the target. If they do it the other way around they either have to make sure to ban every pushed equipment that they do print or never print any again. Same reason they banned Blazing Shoal rather than Progenitus and Reaper King.
>>44707309
Wizards says it "limits" design space but we'll never get equipment better than Jitte, Batterskull or the Swords so I think that's a moot point in regards to Stoneforge
What if instead of a Summer Bloom ban, Tolaria west gets hit?
Isn't TW one of the largest factors in Amulets consistency? its what searches for prime time/removal/needed land/counterpell
That much versatility in one uncounterable tutor seems fairly innocuous but its damn powerful and may be enough to stop everyone's complaininghoping for a sword of the meek unban
>>44707334
What if instead amulet bloom remains untouched and more people in modern adapt to it?
Unban Dread Return
Unban Sword of the Meek
Ban Expedition Map
Problem solved
>>44707360
What if your wife adapts to my dick
>>44707360
The problem is that the deck can go off as soon as turn 2, and relatively consistently does go off before turn 4. Decks aren't supposed to do that in Modern.
>>44703418
"We need 8ED and 9ED dead"
>Ban Blood Moon
>Ban Summer Bloom
>Ban Urza Tron
>Unban Sword of the Meek
Dredge is hero format needs.
Reprint cabal of baghdad - BB and thoughtseize effect, flashback sacrifice 1 creature and pay 2 lives.
And bazaar of the cabal: Discard 2 cards draw 1 card
I don't think people realize how bad the Eldrazi deck really is. As long as Tron is legal in this format, there is no reason to play Eldrazi (from a competitive standpoint)
>you will never win that powerball jackpot and waste all that fucking money on making the perfect magic deck
At least my blackhawks are winning, I don't think I have any other reasons to live
>>44707647
As long as Tron is legal there is no reason to play anything else*
>>44705289
Pauper is the new format the hipsters have latched on to. Like they did with tiny leaders (but I hesitate to call TL a format).
>>44706892
You're a funny guy, anon
>>44704440
I remember twoo already did vial illusions.
I can think of literally no reason to keep sfm banned anymore.
#FreeJace
>>44708196
I would love to have Mind Sculptor again. Maybe control would actually be viable!
>>44708224
Control decks are for long winded faggots who want to feel smug.
It was never a good option, just AN option. A better blue player would just run illusion heavy and storm the gate with some counter mixed in to check the other player's shit, some flyers, an unblockable option or two, card gain.
Loads of ways to make blue a nasty deck, but control is the worst choice and only made by total shit heads who want to slow the game down and make everyone hate the mechanics.
Eat shit for even promoting that idea.
>>44708256
I don't even want there to be a lot of control decks in the meta. I'd just like to be a fucking option. Control in modern is fucking terrible right now.
Literally every popular deck in modern is an extremely linear hurr durr combo or aggro deck. It would be nice to see variety.
>>44708224
Delver is the true way to play blue.
Tempo or GTFO.
>>44708295
Twin is a control deck.
>>44708256
>Illusions
>M-meanie shithead control players >>:((((((
Memedern audience everyone
>>44708256
I know this is >b8, and you just want your >you, but this is an attitude people have.
And it's stupid. Control decks need to be a thing to keep the noninteractive/linear decks honest.
Magic noob again, I have another question. This time about how I can use Instant cards during combat.
I know that Magic doesn't have "phases" like YuGiOh does, but is there some kind of bullshit you can legally do to steal away games?
Like, for instance, let's say I have a 3 damage creature on the board and you have a 3 damage creature as well who can block it and both of our creatures die, but you're "okay" with the prospect of me just attacking for 3 damage. That's no big deal. Once you've "okayed" the direct attack and the damage calculation to your life is happening, could I drop like two or three +4 damage buff Instant cards at once and potentially win the game with you really having a further say in the matter? Granted, if you don't have your own Instant cards that counter this behavior. Are you allowed to change your mind block such an attack after you've already said you aren't going to block?
>>44708256
Yeah, you sound like a respectable player and not at all a butthurt scrub.
>>44708304
Delver is respectable. But modern has almost zero control options and that's retarded.
>>44708414
Yes. You can do that.
No. I can't change my mind once I've declared my blockers.
>>44708377
Illusions are a better option than control players.
One has me fighting a mage, the other has me fighting mechanics which are fundamentally less fun or rewarding.
>>44708414
Go read the fucking ame rules you fucking mongoloid.
>>44708414
Yes. The attacker can proceed to play instants, and the defending player can also proceed to play instants (like removal).
>>44708447
Are you australian by any chance'
>>44708414
Instant pumpables, once you declare attackers and blockers they can't be stopped, however, instants can take effect before the damage is dealt.
The damage will not bleed through and hit the player behind the monster unless your attacking character has the trample trait though.
>>44708414
This has to be b8.
>magic doesn't have phases
Objectively wrong.
Magic does have phases/steps. Every turn has:
>Untap Phase
>Upkeep Phase
>Draw Phase
>Precombat Main Phase
>Combat Phase
>Postcombat Main Phase
>End Phase.
There are also subphases. Combat for instance has:
>Declare Attackers subphase
>Declare Blockers subphase
>first strike damage
>regular damage
>end of combat
At the beginning of the Declare Blockers phase, your opponent gets to declare his blockers. If he declares none, both players get a chance to cast spells and abilities before moving on to damage. You can pump your creature and he can't do shit if he didn't block, or doesn't have a response.
>>44708414
Sounds like you want to play infect.
>>44708507
Well he did say he was a magic noob here, and infect is babby's first deck, so...
Thanks, captain obvious?
>>44708493
It's also worth noting that the active player gets a chance to cast instants first, after which the defending player gets a chance to cast instants. If the active player chooses to casts no instants after blockers are declared and the defending player passes priority the active player gets no further chances to play anything before damage happens.
>>44708493
Don't forget the Begin Combat sub-phase.
>>44708441
And being a noob, he would have no knowledge of decks that might interest him. Now he knows about infect. Think before you post.
The goal of any competitive player is reduce your opponent's options to zero, to remove interaction.
The goal of R&D and DCI should be to promote interactive games.
The players are doing very well. R&D is not. The DCI is not.
Don't hate the (bloom) player, hate the game (designers).
>>44708493
Are you allowed to re-enter combat phase?
Like, let's say I begin my turn by untapping my cards and drawing for the turn, then I want to attack with one creature just to test the waters, so to speak, and then I play my Land for the turn, choice of sorceries or enchantments, and then want to attack again with the rest of my creatures. Can that be done?
>>44708809
Not without other cards. Unless a card changes things, the phases proceed exactly in the order I listed, with no going backwards. You get one combat phase per turn.
There are cards like Wave of Aggression that give you a second combat phase in the turn, but without something like that, NO.
>>44708809
Haha, no, thank god.
>>44708809
No. You get one combat step and only one. Unless you have a card that gives you a second you cannot attack twice on the same turn.
>>44708809
No. However cards exist that can give extra combat phases. Otherwise, once you've passed priority between players and moved on to the next phase, there is no going back. Take your time and make your moves wisely.
>>44703923
The current form of eggs doesn't even run pyrite spellbomb yo!
>>44708954
My list does.
Are you the Bitter Ordeal guy?
>>44708954
i run pyrite spellbombs in case i need to win on my opponent's turn
>>44708992
I run 2 pyrites, 2 sunbeams, and 2 aethers
>>44709008
Yeah I saw in the previous thread.
My list is a bit different, with only one pyrite, one bauble and one codex shredder. Sunbeams and aethers in the sideboard.
>>44709039
>>44709008
>>44708993
>>44708992
>>44708954
Also, look at all these eggs guys.
>>44709047
two of those posts are me with Bitter Ordeal
>>44709056
Sure, but three players is quite a lot. I usually feel like I'm the only one at my LGS that's trying to keep eggs alive.
>>44709069
i suppose that's a lot of people for a deck like eggs
all this cancer coming out of the woodwork
>>44709096
What do you play anon? I play Tron myself. Can't say I've ever met an eggs player. I like the idea of the deck but I'm still fuzzy on exactly what is required to go off. Also winning with bitter ordeal sounds hillarious.
>>44709142
it's like storm, except the cantrips are permanents, the rituals are permanents, and everything is free
>>44709142
gifts toolbox
>>44709178
Straight esper? 4c? Deck list? Do you include a reanimator package? How's your tron game?
>>44709161
What is the state of tour board/ hand when you go off? What turn does this typically happen on?
>>44709300
Esper with a reanimator package. I've considered going 4c to get access to a wishboard and glittering wish, but I don't think it's worth it.
Reanimators are: Baby Jace, Ghost dad, Iona, Elesh Norn, and Emrakul. Mostly using goryo's vengeance for the first 2 and emrakul, though I have actually stalled long enough to hardcast the eldrazi.
Tron is 40-60 in favor of tron. It's my worst matchup right now.
>>44703418
>Ban fetchlands
>Ban shocklands
You forgot the Saving Modern option
And my hope:
Screw the Haters
>Unban artifact lands
>>44709142
Eggs has different win cons, and different builds depending on how it wants to off.
Mine for instance tries to get to ten mana through Krark-Clan Ironworks and Lotus Blooms, sac Pyrite Spellbomb to deal 2 damage, sac Codex Shredder to recur Faith's Reward, play the FR and do it all again. Repeat as necessary.
Other win cons are milling your opponent, casting Emrakul, Banefire for a thousand, amass Gravestorm for Bitter Ordeal, etc...
>>44709330
Turn four is pretty typical, sometimes turn three, later than turn five is very rare for me. Packages with Mox Opals may go off a turn earlier, while versions that operate on Tron lands are usually more controlling of the board state, postponing their critical turn.
All in all it's pretty difficult to state there is only one eggs deck, there are several competing builds at the moment.
>>44709330
the ideal turn is four
typically i have a few lands, at least one ghost quarter, a handful of eggs and maybe a few spells in hand, reshapes or thoughtcasts
>Unban Stoneforge Mystic
Please NO
>>44709392
I had no idea there were so many variations. I'm especially surprised some versions use tron lands.
>>44709357
You got a list to share? I've been on the verge of pulling the trigger on a playset of gifts and some reanimator targets since I have everything else. It's only recently I've been turned on to targets that stick around after firing off a goryo.
>>44705073
>tfw sultai becomes better than jund
![[PANIC].gif](https://i.imgur.com/V5NDA1K.gif "[PANIC].gif")
>>44709464
YES
>>44709464
In a format of turn two primeval titans, turn three karns, kommand, bolt, terminate ,etc. What are you so worried about?
>>44709494
http://themeadery.org/decks/deck/6822/
this plus meta calls
>>44709464
Why not? How is a turn 3 batterskull worse than a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary, Goyf, Angler, Rhino or any other fair threat?
>>44709546
Because its BANNED! So it is POWERFUL and UNFAIR!
>>44703418
>Unban Second Sunrise
Not this
Never this
>>44703576
>>44705766
Goyf decks aren't even good with a meta full of bloom and tron, what the fuck are you retards even talking about?
>>44709494
Tron versions skip the Lotus Bloom/Reshape package since it's so color intensive. Assembling Tron makes seven mana, combine that with some eggs and KCI and you've got a lot going on.
The disadvantage of this approach is that you have to dedicate several resources to being able to assemble your Tron lands. I personally advice against it.
>>44709575
Pls
>>44704693
Turn 3 karn is actually unbeatable unless you're a hyper aggressive deck that is just going to win anyway like Burn or 1-drop Zoo.
>>44704921
Two of those cards are bad sideboard cards for Jund, two of them are literally worthless reactive spells that still fuck you
>>44709571
It was banned because of the lingering anal devastation accrued from cawblade's reign of terror in standard. Same with bitterblossom.
>>44709649
if amulet bloom is allowed to go off turn 2 eggs should too
>>44708954
I use banefire
>>44709707
>>44709649
>>44709392
Decklists?
>>44709650
>burn, affinity, zoo
>20% of the format flat out beats 7%
You're kinda being butthurt anon.
