What has been your experience with them?
>>44605481
>>44605481
>What has been your experience with them?
Every time I create an immensely popular TV show, someone always comes along and writes a parody of a non-canon self-insert character who is perfect in every way and which is designed specifically to illustrate the problem of bad fanzine fiction.
Or did OP write "Mary Sue" when he meant "poorly-designed character"?
>>44605549
I think OP has no clue about what a Mary Sue actually is.
>Ms. Marvel
>Mary Sue
Explain this if you really think this. Otherwise nice bait.
>>44605481
>>44605632
Is that actually Ms. Marvel, though? Looks like some tweenager's clone of them intended to be a self-insert. Which doesn't immediately make them a sue, but it does kinda make it a despicable character.
And standing next to Femverine... Wolverine himself is most definitely a sue. Which would make a gender-swap of him a sue, just as much as the male version is. Because what a lot of people forget is that the term "Mary Sue" Doesn't just mean "Strong Female character that I dislike" it means ANY character, male or female, that is generally perfect in every way or very close to it, and generally never fails at anything.
>>44605714
Wolverine fails at quite a bit, and isn't even really liked by most people around him.
>>44605481
Nothing, seeing as it's impossible for a player to create them and our gm is good enough to not.
>>44605481
When I was fifteen, I made them and so did everyone else, and we played them and we had fun.
I no-longer play with teenagers, and no one makes them, because it would now spoil our fun.
>>44605733
Is this new stuff in Marvel? I haven't kept up with comics for three years, last I remember Wolverine was nigh unkillable and nigh unbeatable.or is this like how Superman fans will say "But Superman has died sometimes though so he's not a sue!
Jokes about Sueverine and Sueperman aside, DEADPOOL IS BETTER THAN WOLVERINE.
COME AT ME.
>>44605805
While it is true you can't kill him, you can knock him out and incapacitate him pretty easily. He's strong, but really not much stronger than a extremely fit regular human in the setting. So any of the more super powered folks can just put him in a box or clock him once and forget about him for a little while.
Also, again, he's really not very well liked in the setting. Which is something I always thought was a prerequisite for Sues. Respected sure, but not liked.
One of the players in my old group was both a mage and a Claric
Not a duel class mind you
He had two souls in his body
One mage
One Claric
And he could use ALL the spells of both of them.
>>44605714
>Looks like some tweenager's clone of them intended to be a self-insert
>it does kinda make it a despicable character.
I don't suppose there's any chance you remember this guy by the name of Peter Parker?
>>44605744
You're confusing mary sues and special snowflakes.
>>44605928
Did he want the game to focus around him at all times?
>>44605951
I never really liked spoodermoon desu
>>44605481
thats Laura Kinney or X-23 is now the new wolverine since Logan died;he was covered head to toe in adamantium and suffocated death one of the few way you can kill Logan.
she not mary sue what so ever she get her ass kicked alot due to the lack of an adamantium skeleton
>>44606171
She's also pretty fucked in the head, what with her frankly horrendous upbringing.
We're talking cuts hard enough that it leaves a bathroom looking like a murder scene.
>>44605714
>doesn't read comics
>complains about them anyway
It's like i'm really on /co/
>>44606394
I'm not so much complaining about comics as just writing in general. I used to be an avid comics fan, just don't have time for it anymore.
>Play Star Wars d20
>Play hapless turncoat stormtrooper
>Campaign's just starting so we're all pretty low level
>Balance my character out by being a mediocre shot and kind of cowardly
>Plan on slowly building my character's skill and confidence up throughout the campaign
>Meanwhile the That Girl rolls a force-sensitive and fudges the shit out of it
>Master pilot and engineer
>Mastery of several force abilities, despite having no training in her backstory
>Implies she might be one of the canon SW character's kids
>Always alpha as fuck at all times, kicks everyone's ass with ease
>It's only the first session and she's already flying the Millennium Falcon and using jedi mind tricks
>Her sheet is so fucking minmaxed the GM throws together a sith to give her a match
>She still kicks his ass in their first encounter
The worst part is she's only going to get stronger and even more insufferable as the campaign goes on.
>>44606488
Ohyou.jpg
That said, I agree.
You know, I think one thing in the damn movie could have changed, and I'd not feel so down on Rey. The end. She doesn't just suddenly stomp Ren after he was styling all over her.
He had her, he HAD HER, right until somehow he...didn't. Just the one change of that, have the earth split, and divide them up, without either side pulling out a clear win. She has to go because Finn, and he's aware if he keeps pressing he's kinda bleeding like a motherfucker, and decides that pushing it isn't going to end well for him.
And yes, sure, again, he was shot. But he was utterly dominating her even so.
And don't you start with "But Finn...!"
Finn got his asshole stomped inside out both times.
First time, he shanked a motherfucker, then got styled on hard by TR-8T or whatever his fan name is. Han saved his butt.
Second time, with School-Shooter Vader? Motherfucker was toying with him, until he got in a lucky hit. Then Kylo was done with that shit, and Finn went down like a sack of shit.
That said, I did like how Finn was using his saber. He was trained with the riot club, so he kept trying to use it like that. Just bludgeon the guy to death.
>>44606488
Also
>Forces daughterly bond with Han Solo
>Acts like she and Leia are best pals THE FIRST TIME THEY MEET
>Goes to get trained by Luke Skywalker
It's like all of the original characters revolve around her for no reason. I hate her. I hate her so much.
>>44606488
Why does the gm let it happen? Why are you still playing?
>>44606488
Look if that's how it is talk to your GM. Tell him you feel she's taking up all the limelight and ask if your character can serve as something of a foil.
You're character could be low-key and act cowardly but in reality be a force not to take lightly. Play up your lovable nature and be the guy people enjoy talking to. Heck, ask your GM if you can provide plot hooks via a large network of mysterious associates that your character just happens to know somehow. It's not giving you anything extra and it'll be fun for you to play.
I was in a situation not to unsimilar to this.
>>44606572
Because I'm really looking forward to having space adventures with the bro-tier x-wing pilot in our party. I think the GM is going so easy on her because he's afraid of being called sexist if she ends up having flaws or is vulnerable.
>>44605481
Well I just saw Star Wars: TFA. My most recent encounter with a mary sue.
>>44606621
>>44606430
I think that probably makes it even more retarded
A Mary Sue is a being that comes from outside a works cannon and is simply the bestist most beloved thing ever.
By this standard no pc can be a Mary Sue by just being powerful and/or unique.
>>44606707
...possibly.
I don't know anymore I've been awake for 22 hours and I'm to tired to think straight.
>>44605481
I once got to see the development of a Gary Stu due to retarded in group drama, and with at least initial resistance from the player of the character.
>Playing a wheel of time set game.
>At the house of one of the players, named Terry not the GM,
>One of the other players, Will, does not get along with Terry.
>Manage to mostly keep it together, but eventually they have a serious falling out, and Terry doesn't want William in his house ever again, which is quite fine by Will, who never wants to see the guy either.
>Will's character is killed off IC.
>Eventually, we kind of form similar attitudes about Terry (which is a whole nother story), and drop him from the group, reconvening in a local library, a big step down, since we can't snack the same way.
>Will gets re-invited to the group, but since it's been 6 months or so, he's found other things to do, he's not as invested in the campaign anymore, and he's not really feeling it so much.
>Which is why our DM tries to bring back Will's PC.
>But this is a setting where there is no resurrection, outside of a reincarnation thing that the Big Bad occasionally does to his top goons.
>DM retcons his character into being a hero tied to the Horn of Valere, an in universe mega-artifact designed to keep some of history's greatest heroes around to be summoned for the Armageddon battle.
>And uses a cheapass trick that actually does happen in the books to reincarnate him as an adult, and bring him back into the party.
>Game becomes more and more about him and his "transplanted memories" of his other lives.
>Eventually fizzles out into stupidity, with Will again leading the charge that the campaign had become ridiculous.
>>44605481
When i was younger i made a lot of em, now i know how to make cherecters and dont play with people who are much younger than me so none at all
>>44606488
Screencapped. I will use the fuck outta this. Thanks.
Mary Sues don't exist.
Poor plotting, pacing and conflict resolution does.
>>44606488
While I agree with everything else there, Finn wasn't a bad shot at all. If he pointed his blaster at something? It fucking died.
Spot on for the rest, though.
>>44606488
>play Star Wars d20
>GM played a game with a me a few years back and was interested in me bringing back my old character
>said I could even have another player's character, an alien that was my best friend, brought back as an NPC
>I say hell fucking yes
>first quest is one to get my ship back, pretty excited, get right back into roleplaying this character like I'd never stopped
>new players have already been awed about my past campaign adventures, pretty obvious from how they react IC
>suddenly miss magic lady starts messing with my ship better than I do
>What the fuck, DM, I've been flying this ship for longer than she has and it's out of date tech by now! How does she know it so well?
>DM just kind of shrugs and mumbles something about the plot
>decide to work with this and offer the force girl a job, keep the story moving forward
>she just wants to go back to her home planet, turncoat stormtrooper just blabbers on about being unable to face the Order (really GM, this is obviously the evil faction from your last game) and even splits off from the group for a bit
>I fucking hate it when everyone decides their PCs backstories separately and their goals don't align
>end up rejoining the rebellion again, rehash of old adventure - gotta get onto an enemy base to rescue a damsel in distress and then blow it up later
>DM has my character killed off by the BBEG, who he decided was my son all of a sudden, just to add some drama, fuck you DM
>DM gives my ship to the force bitch and says that I can use the NPC as my character
>>44605805
Nigga read a comic. Wolverine is nigh unkillable but that doesn't stop every bad guy from tearing him in half to punting him across the city to prove how tough they are. Not to mention half the people he fights are omega level mutants who can kill with a thought or don't need a physical body so wolverine just runs at them 100 times, gets BTFO 100 times or until Scott "I'm always right" Summers comes up with a plan.
>>44606533
Her backstory is also pretty much a mix of the worst parts of Luke and Anakin - she was raised on a desert planet, she was essentially a slave, she lost her parents when she was young.
At least Luke took a good bit of time and some serious training to even hold his own against Darth Vader. He barely even used the Force in the first movie. She's just figuring out how to do all these things without any attempt at training.
>>44606858
Mary sues or special snowflakes?
>>44606488
>>44606533
>mfw GM is trying to ship me and Mary Sue, when all I wanna do is bromance with the x-wing pilot PC
>>44607059
both, depending on my age. Merry sues tended to be clouser to my 11-13 and special snowflakes at 14-16
>>44606533
>chewie all sentimental when meeting leia
>doesn't even acknowledge her after their mutual husband dies
movie was shit because of that alone
>>44607138
Yeah, seriously. The fuck was up with that?
>>44607082
>be x-wing pilot
>stormtrooper PC helps me escape from the not!Empire
>ship combat is intense, we're really working together
>suddenly crashland on a planet
>GM says I don't need to show up for the next few weeks
>mfw I've been gracelessly cut out of most of the plot
>>44606488
I really don't think these new films will be remembered fondly
>>44607210
They'll probably end up as ''the alright 3'' next to the good 3 and the bad 3
>>44607138
>>44607151
Watched it with my dad. He started silently fuming when he realized it was just a rehash of A New Hope with Stronk Womyn™ lead. When Han died he sighed and groaned, but when they got off the Falcon to meet up with Leia and Rey and Leia hugged it out without even introducing each other, while Chewie quietly walked off screen, my dad almost said something aloud, stopped himself because he was in a theater, and quietly muttered "Fuck you, JJ Abrams."
>>44606530
>He had her, he HAD HER, right until somehow he...didn't.
The Force, dude. Sure, at first, he pursued her through the woods, pressed her back, but he wasn't fighting to kill her like he did Finn. He was trying to corner her, then offer her a way out—join him so he can teach her the ways of the Force. Only, he didn't count on her using that Force potential to overpower him so ferociously. And yeah, the Force is OP. Always has been.
>>44607228
this
>>44606977
>be Forever GM
>These two dudes ask me to Star Wars d20
>imokaywiththis.jpg
>pretty experienced at this, two full campaigns already
>one didnt turn out so good tho
>basically rehash the first act of the good campaign to get us started
>a pilot and a turncloak are their characters
>one of the guys suddenly disappears
>nevermind, I know this cute nerd chick
>ask her if she wants in
>she says yes
>thecampaignissaved.gif
>nerd chick gives me them googly eyes every game
>shes horrible at roleplaying tho
>the other dude starts complaining for some reason
>the campaign is going to shit
>ask veteran player to join in
>he plays his old character, I agree to have his old friend come back as NPC
>he starts flirting with the cute chick
>i gotta get this dude out of here
>make up story about the BBEG being his son
>it catches him unawares and i kill him
>feelsgoodman
>the pilot dude comes back
>turns out he's the nerd chick ex-bf
wat do
>>44605951
>implying Spider-Man was Stan Lee's self insert
There's a difference between the audience projecting on a character, and an author doing so. Also, Spidey failed all the time, up to and including murdering his wife with radioactive jism.
>>44607234
at least your dad doesn't have to be around smug twenty-somethings who praise it all day long
>>44607265
Also one of his girlfrends. Snapped her back like a twig.
Poor guy has a pretty high bodycount of loved ones.
>>44607237
bullshit, ren was trained in the force and she was not. Anakin was a much MUCH more powerfull force user than obi and he still got schooled by him both as anie and as vader (the only reason he did not wipe the floor with vader was because he though look shold do it). There is no reason for her to become so powerfull
>>44606530
>First time, he shanked a motherfucker, then got styled on hard by TR-8T or whatever his fan name is. Han saved his butt.
That's TR-8Ryou get it? Traitor? Call him DJ Sick Spins if you can't remember it
>>44607336
No, I get the joke, I just couldn't remember the exact short-hand for him.
Don't forget good 'ol JB-007, who got mindraped by Rey.
>>44607336
I figured it should be TR-8-0R.
>>44606977
>>DM has my character killed off by the BBEG, who he decided was my son all of a sudden, just to add some drama, fuck you DM
I mean, TFA has shit parts, but that's the fact thatRen is Han's sonis not one of them. It's well-supported and presented, not as a cheap trick or shock.
>>44607385
It felt cheap to me. Leia and Han getting together? Sure. Them having a son and it just becoming known halfway through the film? Cheap, but I can deal with it - but then they immediately make it clear they know exactly who their son is. They knew. And that just bothers me.
Also, I legitimately thought his name was Ben. I thought they had named him after Kenobi.
>>44607527
His name IS Ben.
Ben Solo.
He chose Kylo Ren as his Not-Sith name.
>>44607527
His name is Ben, and they probably did name him after Kenobi; he changed it when he went evil. And there wasn't really a time to talk about Ren being their kid before both were on screen. It wasn't being kept from the audience, it was said at the first opportunity.
Also, not hard for them to know where their kid went; can't be that many people out there who slaughtered a temple's worth of students and ran away a few months(years?) before a force-sensitive guy showed up with the same lightsaber. Not to mention his obsession with Vader probably started early.
>>44607613
He's part of the Knights of Ren, whom all members of take Ren as their last name. Kind of like getting married, I guess? Don't know where Kylo comes from.
>>44606533
>Acts like she and Leia are best pals THE FIRST TIME THEY MEET
It's another one of JJ's rehash scenes. It's supposed to mirror Leia comforting Luke after Obi-Wan is killed.
>>44607667
Headcanon? I don't remember them giving any details about the Knights in the movie.
>>44607649
The thing that bothers me about them knowing about Ren is that they had years to do something about it. He seems to do a lot of near-solo missions for the Empire, and Han managed to get close enough to have a conversation with him.
>>44607667
He's the LEADER, meaning they probably got the Ren part from him, too.
>>44607704
Big Toke'n Snoke'n mentioned it once, saying he was leader of the Knights'n all. That was about all we got.
>>44607112
So you wanted that everything revolved around your character, basically.
When you played Mary Sues
>>44607738
I remember the leader line, but not the last name thing. If anything, I thought they named themselves after him.
>>44607710
>near-solo
I mean, he had an entire Star Destroyer in orbit all the time, he just went walking about on foot. Risky play to try and get to him while he's conducting a military operation, even if you can track where he is.
>>44607777
Yeah, that's my feeling on the subject too. Sorry, I didn't look up to see who you were replying to.
>>44607718
"Leader" is not the same thing as "founder".
>>44607770
more of a self-insert that was -oh so important to everything- and was och so great at everything but overall yes
>>44605481
> new ms marvel
> lives in new jersey
> wants to be a blonde white woman
> gets cucked by her beta boyfriend
> everyone in her neighborhood blames her for why the nazis are gentrifing her hometown
>somehow a mary sue
>>44605481
I tolerate people writing up crazy backstory and bios for their character. But if they ever try to force a mechanical benefit normally not available to their character through said mary sue shit then they get swiftly booted out of the table in the most embarrassing way possible.I like to run my games in a lgs so the humiliation is very much public.
>>44606430
The criticism being made here is that NEITHER of those are amateur OCs, they're both current main-title characters (X-23 as the new Wolverine now that Wolverine is quite dead, Kamala Khan as Ms Marvel) and so your complaints are wildly ignorant, pointlessly cynical and illustrate a point about people who complain about Mary Sues: they usually don't know what they're talking about and are bitching about this nebulous 'problem' they've invented in their own heads to feel intellectually superior.
>Back in Highschool, playing in D&D club.
>Start new characters in Thay, play a Lawful Evil Monk.
>Clear out a dungeon for a slave master.
>There's an unclaimed slave that I take as part of the payment.
>DM is incredibly magical realm and makes clothes not matter how prude into slut clothes.
>Makes her the indestructible DMPC with a one hit wonder attack.
>It gets back to him that the rest of us hate the character.
>So he kills her off in a duegar dungeon.
I just wanted a slave guys.
They're annoying and not suited for a multiplayer story telling game.
>>44605714
That's Kamala Khan, Ms. Marvel, yes. She's actually pretty entertaining.
She's a very very Americanized Muslim empowered by a bunch of mythical figures she's religiously obligated not to acknowledge.
>>44608571
In addition, Wolverine has been wildly incompetent explicitly for decades and implicitly for most of his career. He's good at brawling and not a lot else, and he's not actually THAT great at brawling because he doesn't need to be, because nothing can fucking kill him and for several decades nothing could even really HURT him because of his skeleton. Wolverine mostly got by on being fucking invincible and it showed, they just started playing it up a lot more after the 90s.
>>44608654
But he's the best he is at what he does.
>>44608702
Best there is, rather.
I don't know if this counts, but we have a space marine in our Only Campaign... BUT NOT JUST ANY MARINE. He's a 13th company space wolf with specially designed and handmade helmet, lightning claws off the get and more in control of himself than any other wulfen! He also had his own personal drop pod send him in AND refuses to bow down or listen to anything us Captains have to say.
[Spoiler]Our GM, seeing how I'm playing a penal legion has personally asked me to kill the Furry Fucker. How many autocannon rounds does it take to bring down an RPG Space Marine? Gotta make sure I got enough.[\spoiler]
>running a small game to playtest a system I'm helping to make
>the universe is an established and popular one and the game mostly follows the rules set by said universe
>the plot follows a preestablished canon with some minor changes
>most of the players make their characters and integrate them well
>one even expys a character form another game and makes it work fine with the universe's rules
>the last player makes their character and basically gives me nothing to work with but a stat spread, no real backstory or anything like that
>character is a hothead who is constantly starting fights and taking them too far
>the players and myself thus react to said character's behavior and actions in character as if the other character must be in idiot based on the nothing they know about her
>player gets offended and starts ranting OOC about how his character has a degree in physics
>such information isn't even remotely relevant to the campaign and setting
>they just continue to play the character as a hotheaded idiot who starts fights they can't win
>whenever they do win it's because they acted in-character as if they knew about the fate points system, which was expressly stated to be meta and not something characters are aware off
>barely survives an attack with 2 HP left
>acts like the fight has only just started now that they can proc the talent that gives them a stat boost when near defeat
a character "near defeat" is acting like she's just warming up
This guy did so much shit.
>Setting set in modern/anime japan
>One character come as a black canadian tall as fuck amazon
>okay that's magical realm but eh
>use power armor
>okay that's coo-
>sentient power armor
>ok--
>like 6 sessions in and she start fucking the power armor
>fuck
>Always act as if she can do no wrong
>Player minmaxes as hard as he masturbate to his character
>Looked down on nearly everyone but the fucking DMPC teenager with mental problems
>even then she was the worst possible sister figure you could imagine
>didn't really try to improve and the DMPC started looking up to her badly because it wasn't that bad first
>the mary sue got the arm of the DMPC cut off
>acted like one of the PC (a cyborg) was "of poor manufacture" because he failed two science tests (that were not limited in time in any way and really not easy to do)
>a lot of poor decisions
>unlikeable as shit
>at the end of the campaign, she wished to become immortal with her power armor fuckbot
Never again. Oh yeah, and the player used two energy sources in the setting that were in DIRECT CONFLICT with each other with NO ill effect. Instead of only one.
>>44608861
RPG Space Marines generally have 8 or 10 toughness bonus as a result of Unnatural Toughness, though I think UT was nerfed after Dark Heresy 1.0. Aside from that, their armor usually provides somewhere between 8-12 AP. They also generally have in the range of 30 wounds if I'm not wrong. If I remember, autocannon is some shit like 3d10+8. So you're gonna need about 4-5 shots with the autocannon to put him down.
>>44608861
Call in other space wolves to remove this traitor
It would drive the point home better
>>44608935
Unnatural Toughness was changed from multiplicative to additive from Black Crusade onward. Makes it a lot less powerful by default, but also more flexible.
>>44609011
I thought that was the case. Still, you're dealing with a lot of toughness unless you've got the Felling trait on your weapons. An autocannon most certainly can tear a marine to shreds. In DH1 I made a psyker who could literally punch holes straight through Astartes Power Amor.
You just need the right tool for the job, and in this case the right tool is enough damage to destroy everything.
>>44605481
One guy running the same game in multiple systems. There's always a magical teenage girl the plot bends backwards for, and the players are an audience/chauffeurs
>>44608644
>empowered by a bunch of mythical figures she's religiously obligated not to acknowledge.
Then why are they empowering her?
>>44607332
Ren is also an emotional wreck, and to use the force well you need a clear mind. imo that's why he started losing
>>44606488
>>44606530
>>44606533
Don't forget that despite having lived as a borderline slave/scrapper orphan her entire life on a brutal planet... unshakable morals and ethics. Fuck, even Luke when living with his aunt and uncle was humoring the idea of joining the Empire because the life would be better.
>>44607210
>>44607228
Some people are already defending the shitty writing, though.
>>44608925
>that guy who talks shit on other characters because of bad rolls
>that guy who genuinely takes a sense of superiority from making a good roll
>>44607667
S(KY)Walker and So(LO)
>>44609317
Well I'm not really going to defend Anakin too much, but all of them at least had progression. Ugh.
I once was in a DBZ inspired RPG group on a message board and I had a Gary Stu unlike any other Gary Stu.
He declared that his character had discovered both the secrets of time travel AND immortality so his character had traveled back to the beginning of time and trained all the way up to present day multiple times so he said his characters was an Ultimate Grand Master in countless disciplines of countless fields.
I remember pointing out one day on the forums how my character was a demi-goddess who had magical invention skills that based on what she was competing with were better than Tony Stark, Victor Von Doom, Bruce Wayne and Reed Richards combined and she was still the weakest character in the group by a wide margin. The group fell apart shortly after that from the following discussion of power and balance.
>>44605493
He didn't even attempt to define it. And the first post is already accusing him of being wrong.
Never change /tg/.
>>44608878
Fuck I just remembered a choice moment.
>guy who expy'd his character asks if he can make rolls for the equivalent of notice or history checks using stats from the original game's sheet
>nothing that really has a pronounced effect, but makes for a fitting in-joke
>player with the Mary Sue asks if he can make the same check
>"No, you literally don't have those stats."
>"But Character X doesn't either! That's not fair!"
>"Character X is literally a cross-universe character making out of universe rolls as a joke. Now sit down and stop getting mad at games."
>>44607210
>>44607228
I'm just hoping the next one will be better, since there's less JJ involved and they bothered getting a new writer instead of reusing Lawrence Kasdan.
>>44609303
Are you retarded? Dark side force users are all about emotions.
>>44605951
>spider man is a Marty stue
>his backstory is literally him fucking up
what?
>>44606642
>Star Wars
Yeah, apparently you're a sexist if you say that Rey is a Mary Sue. Which is what happens when they can't dispute it rationally.
>>44606739
The idea of a Mary Sue stems from fan fic, but it isn't limited to fan fic. Basically, it comes in two broad categories:
Character Mary Sues are characters who are Very important to everyone else in the work. So characters only interact with her, or if they interact with anyone else, it's only to illuminate those characters' relationships with the mary sue. A good example: Bella from Twilight. Sooki Stackhouse in true blood, at least at first.
Power Mary Sues are characters whose abilities, AS REALIZED IN THE STORY, are overwhelmingly above those of everyone else. Dr. Manhattan isn't a mary sue despite having overwhelming power, because his power is mostly unused in the story or counteracted. It's there, but it doesn't take over.
Both are just variants of the same general problem: characters who take over a story to the point that the whole thing revolves around exploring how great they are, to the detriment of the story. The story becomes an ode to the wonderfulness of this one character. Doctor Who falls into both traps at its worst, and at its best avoids both despite the Doctor being, on paper, a natural candidate for mary sueishness.
Rey's a Power Mary Sue. Her character and story are bland but fine. But she's a mechanic, ace pilot, combat monster, AND has jedi powers. Her only flaw is that she can't reach the shield controls on the Falcon, so she needs a copilot. She out-duelled a trained Jedi. A shitty wounded one, but a Jedi nonetheless. When she's on screen, the world revolves around her, to the detriment of the others.
Luke was a naive, annoying amateur. Han was unprincipled and spiritually unilluminated. Leia was handy with a blaster and a good leader, but that's it. Obi Wan in the OT was a Jedi, but that's it.
Rey is R2D2, Luke, and Han all in one character. She's a Power Mary Sue.
>>44609545
This. Kylo is a fantastic character because he's so limited and flawed. He wants to be Darth Vader, and in a way he succeeds, by being the whiny brat that Anakin Skywalker was.
But what he doesn't understand is that Anakin was trapped by his love into falling to the Dark Side and destroying everything that he'd fallen to save.
Kylo Ren, on the other hand, is willingly sacrificing all that just for power. He just wants power and to live up to his ideal of himself. He can't hate himself the way Anakin did because he never cared enough about anyone or anything else.
Finn is a great character because he is flawed and limited, too. He's haunted by the First Order and his own past with it. He's trying to decide if he ran out of moral indignation or simple cowardice.
>>44609554
I was saying Peter Parker's purpose was to be a self-insert for tweens.
>>44609571
Rey is quickly becoming a Character Mary Sue as well.
Han took her in like a daughter.
Chewbacca liked her immediately.
Leia liked her.
Kylo Ren immediately became obsessed with her.
And now she's going to get trained by Luke.
Most characters are already revolving around her.
>>44608619
Well, at least he killed her off once it was clear people hated her.
>on Kylo Ren losing to Rey and barely winning against Finn
Didn't he get like a superblaster shot to the chest? The kind of shot that doesn't just drop a nigga, but throws a nigga away and overpenetrates to hit the three niggas behind the first nigga?
>>44608878
>>running a small game to playtest a system I'm helping to make
>>the universe is an established and popular one and the game mostly follows the rules set by said universe
You're being very vague? Are you afraid we'll judge youranime?
>>44609810
A Bowcaster, but yes. Winning against Finn was a logical outcome of fighting a man who couldn't fight off a stormtrooper with a lightsaber. It's not just that Rey won, it's that she can do seemingly anything; defeat Sith, use the force without training, pilot the Falcon, repair the falcon, and is loved by everyone immediately despite no real reason for them to do so.
>>44609571
>you're a sexist if you say that Rey is a Mary Sue
>>44609317
>Han was multilingual
He spoke Basic and understood Wookie. Rey speaks Basic, at least one alien language, and understands droid and Wookie despite the odds being high she's never seen a Wookie in her backwater trade outpost on her backwater planet.
Also, none of them were crack shots; Han was probably the best, but still not great (until the new movie when he did that dumb behind-the-back shot) but I don't know if Luke ever managed to actually hit anyone when he wasn't 3 feet away.
>>44609810
He did, and it kinda works as justification. But there's so much else wrong with Rey's character that the fight ends up fitting pretty neatly into the "she's a mary sue" view.
>>44609905
>>44609571
I've been a bit out of the loop; have the various "geek" sites been posting articles about this newly discovered misogyny in Star Wars fans because they're calling out Rey as a Mary Sue?
>>44609891
>>44609923
The lightsaber fight wasn't even the first part of it. Kylo tried Force-interrogating Rey and she fought him off (with effort, but still), when Kylo was perfectly fine and all Rey knew about the Force was that it existed.
>>44609891
I actually liked the scene when she started trying to Mind Trick the Stormtrooper. The way she kept trying to say it differently before it worked made it seem like she had heard it was a thing people could do but wasn't sure exactly how to do it. Besides its not like Luke spent a lot of time training, he was only with Yoda for what, a few weeks? And he's Force Pulling before that. Honestly Rei being naturally in tune with the Force doesn't seem that far outside the film canon...
>>44609954
Yeah. Some of them phrase it as 'neckbeards upset about new movie in Star Wars no matter what', but there's always an undercurrent of 'if you don't like you're sexist and racist,' that sometimes is explicitly stated.Finn was OK, though they kinda shit the bed by making him not like combat but also massacring a few dozen troopers over the movie, and by making him play funny black guy when he had the possibility to be a great straight man for Poe- a guy raised his whole life in strictly regimented barracks would be a great foil
>>44610010
To be fair, it's pretty heavily implied that Kylo isn't actually that strong of a force user, and that part of the reason he turned to the Dark Side was because he believed it could make him more powerful.
In that case, Rey's raw connection to the force could be enough to overcome his trained, but weaker, force powers.
The rest of it is kind of bullshit though - a scavenger wouldn't know how to fly or repair a spaceship, just which parts were the most valuable to sell. She still wouldn't be trained enough to use the Jedi mind trick, and she had no way to know about it. And somehow she's better with a lightsaber than Finn, who at least apparently has training in the use of melee weapons?
>>44610010
Agreed, the interrogation scene was fucking stupid.
>>44610037
And so was the mind trick in my opinion. I liked how James Bond told her to fuck off, it was a nice subversion. But then nope, she immediately succeeds. It would have worked better if she'd managed a force distraction or some shit, or shown the trooper actively fighting the trick.
>>44610066
>heavily implied Kylo isn't that strong of a force user
You fucking what. Fucking dumbo stops a blaster in mid air and most likely killed every dumb nigga at luke's summer camp.
It's never implied he's weak. He's just emo.
>>44610037
People forget the gap in the movies. Luke had YEARS between New Hope and Empire to learn some stuff, and even then he's barely capable of shifting a couple pounds of metal. He then trained with Yoda prior to getting his ass beat in Empire, then spent months more with Yoda before coming back as a real Jedi Knight in Returns. He saw Obi-Wan do the mind trick right in front of him, and he still didn't do it right, let alone go from 'terrified on a torture rack' to 'tricking a stormtrooper' in 15 seconds flat.I think that it was inevitable, as each movie has raised the bar when it comes to Force use; it was in check in the OT, but in the prequels it's everywhere, and so now people expect force pulling, lightsaber duels and mind tricks all day long, sense be damned
>>44610066
>Finn, who at least apparently has training in the use of melee weapons?
Prequel novel shows that Finn is actually highly skilled with both ranged and melee weapons and a master tactician. He was squad leader of his fireteam.
Only reason he didn't climb the ladder higher is that he cared about his dudes too much, putting them above the mission.
A theory says TR-8R (aka Sick Spins Stormtrooper) is one of his former squadmates.
>>44610117
I thought he was just pretty gud with a lightsaber and swinging it, but I had completely forgot about how he stopped a laser blast.
It would've gone well with his imitation of Darth Vader, because that fucker was so metal he couldn't use force lightning and didn't do much extreme with the force. He would've seen DV as what he could be with the right training despite his limitations - but of course, again, the blaster thing.
>>44610149
It made some sense in the prequels at least, since the Jedi are still around and training people, and the crazier duels are between some of the most powerful force users.
>>44610066
>In that case, Rey's raw connection to the force could be enough to overcome his trained, but weaker, force powers.
I can see her maybe being capable of keeping her out of his head at cost, but she went above and beyond.
>>44610167
Vader deflected a shot with his hand and that was amazing at the time, not to mention pulling down catwalks with a gesture while fighting Luke. It wasn't extreme because we didn't have the image of Sheev tearing apart a room to compare it to.
>>44610159
>book says he's a highly skilled fire team leader
>movie shows him like a kid at his first battle, weeping over dead comrades and obviously not in any position of authority, while he calls himself a janitor
Was the book written before or after the movie?
>>44609090
>can literally punch holes through Astartes armour
>>44610066
>And somehow she's better with a lightsaber than Finn, who at least apparently has training in the use of melee weapons?
Well, she had the big stick, and I accepted the big stick->lightsaber crossover as I did T-16->X-Wing. They at least tried to show us that there was a reason, which was fine by me.
>>44610066
I could get behind some degree of repair skill, I mean knowing fine from fucked is pretty key to scavenging and knowing how to turn something a bit fucked into something mostly fine is going to net you a decent number of extra credits.
>>44610149
They could have HAD lightsaber duels and all those fancy tricks to entertain the plebs without going full retard with how mary sue rey is.
Instead of having Shitkiller Base, everything related to that garbage and the awful last 20 minutes.
Just make it so that Finn and Rey put up an okay fight together against an injured Kylo, but he eventually has them on the ropes and is about to finish them off with Luke's saber and then in gonna head of to go kill him too.
Anyway, Luke is the one that pulls the saber instead of fucking rey and Luke whups his fucking ass without even igniting the saber.
>>44608644
she sounds like a moron that has to jump through mental hoops in order to retain her slavish devotion to her religion.
>>44609317
Was this image created by a complete and utter moron?
>>44609205
Because comic books.
>>44610334
A fedora tip to you too as well
Reconciling things that call themselves gods and/or have supernatural powers with religions is Comic Book 101, and Ms. Marvel actually does a good job of talking about it. I recommend you actually read them.
>>44606488
The sad thing is reddit/buzzfeed doesn't think that Rey is a mary sue, and that anyone who thinks she is is misogynistic. I wish I was making that up.
>>44610312
You know you fucked up when there are better writers than you on 4chan. Fucking Abrams, I knew shit like this was gonna happen when they picked him.
>>44605951
>Peter
>Mary Sue
>>44610284
Honestly, I can handle her being able to hold her own with her stick but literally everything she can do is just stupid. What 19 year old is good at EVERYTHING you toss at them?
What is Luke even gonna teach her?
Today's lesson is force persuasion
>oh I already know how to do that
O..oh alright, how about telekinesis?
>I know that too
Do you know all the mental whoha and meditation shit you have to do to control the force?
>OH COURSE I DO! GOSH, STOP MANSPLAINING THE FORCE TO ME, MISOGYNIST
And then she teaches luke how to use the force better
>>44610312
I think they're holding off on the Luke/Ren meeting until we hear the master's side of what happenedso his death at Ren's hands is more tragic.
The third act was garbage, though, and I'd definitely replace it with something else. We don't even need a duel; they could have saved it for a later movie and built hype.
>>44610390
Not him, but that sounds like the same thing as a Christian using demon magic and then telling himself the demons are actually angels so he can still go to heaven.
>>44610063
Finn's character made NO fucking sense to me.
>First Order Stormtrooper
>They're established to be trained early on in life through brutal methods up to and including brainwashing to be selfless killing machines in unfailing service to the order
>Not even given a name
>It's established he's had no prior issues
>Sees death once
>"I GUESS I'M DOOFY COMIC RELIEF AND FALL GUY NOW!"
>>44610149
>>44609922
Yeah, the biggest thing is that she's awesome at everything IMMEDIATELY.
Luke brought up how he used to use rats for target practice. Rey never touched a blaster before in her life and soon was popping Stormtroopers with ease.
Han's entire job and life revolved around flying the Falcon. Anakin gained a lot of his skill from podracing which he lost at constantly to the point he often crashed his pod. She immediately was good enough to fly the Falcon so well she was able to line up a shot for a jammed cannon that she couldn't even see where it was aiming.
Luke and Anakin both lost limbs in their first major battles against the Sith.
Anakin could barely contain his emotions at any stage of his life and that was the reason he fell to the Dark Side. Rey resists a payment roughly sixty times what she is used to for a droid she just met when her entire life prior to this was nothing but getting fucked over.
Also with Luke, you have to remember that Episode IV was originally going to be a standalone movie. They KNOW Episodes VIII and IX are on the way and she still showed off more awesome feats than Luke did in all of Episode IV.
"Mary Sue" continues to be incredibly useless as a term of criticism.
If it means a protagonist in an unlikely situation whose circumstances develop in an improbable way, then that is basically every hero.
If it means "character I don't like", explain why you don't like them.
If the reason you don't like them resembles the first point regarding heroes, then you probably have nothing useful to say, so please, say nothing.
>>44609841
It wasDBZ. The game was being made with the intention of being an accurate representation of the show and all of its tropes. Said player basically walked into the game expecting to be One Punch Man.
>>44610398
Seriously, think about how much fucking better it would have been to have Luke there.
It would show how much he's advanced as a Jedi.
It would serve to show Kylo the power of the light and what he has to strive to beat.
It would show Rey what she could become.
And we could avoid this starkiller nonsense that was honestly the worst 30 minutes I've seen of any movie in the last 2 years. So fucking disappointing after the first 30 minutes of the movie were actually good.
>>44610159
Wait, what the fuck?
Didn't he say he was a janitor?
>>44610259
It's not hard. Hammerhand with 4 strength, despite being primitive, is still enough to blow a hole through their armor. And that's before the d10. Of course then you have toughness to deal with. Then you get into Ascension and Malleus Hammerhand and everything else is weak shit by comparison.
>>44610312
Luke probably would kick his ass, being the most powerful Jedi left in the galaxy.
And then we wouldn't have that fucking ending where they spend half a minute just fucking staring at each other.
>>44610473
>And we could avoid this starkiller nonsense that was honestly the worst 30 minutes I've seen of any movie in the last 2 years. So fucking disappointing after the first 30 minutes of the movie were actually good.
This. I went in tired after the hype, but the setup was fantastic. Even Rey was fine; scavenger, acrobat, big stick, likes droids, lonely. Perfectly conveyed.
Then it came apart during the second act, and by the time they started rehashing New Hope I was done.
>>44610481
>janitor in a setting where all those menial tasks are performed by droids or robots
>janitor going to an active firefight
He lied. If he said he was a sergeant, Solo would've trusted him even less.
>>44610497
>>44610312
>>44610473
The problem with having badass Luke there is that there's no way he leaves Ren to die. He rescues him, and then we have to start the next movie with an escape scene or something so Ren can go and get more badass for the next big fight.
>>44610557
Why would he lie? He said it as a confession when they were going into the base as to why he didn't know stuff.
>>44610531
I feel the movie really suffered because it was trying to be too much of a loveletter to the old movies and bring stuff from them in. And then whoever was in charge of the story didn't do much work in bringing details together, because he felt you were supposed to notice the parallels to the old movies and realize 'oh it's like back during this scene.'
>>44610564
He won't kill him. He's a Jedi, like his father before him.
>>44610435
>>44610334
Basically she doesn't interact with the Greek gods that Mr or old Ms. Marvel did, it's a force that takes the form of the Avengers (her Earthly idols, a fascination for which she's criticized by her parents). She, as a kid, can justify it by being the essence of Superhero picking her.
>Wolverine is kill
I thought he was suppossed to regen/be immortal. Also, isn't he a big name in Marvel? The kind of name you would milk for all its worth, and never kill?
>>44609205
She's American.
How often has Captain America himself, outside a single line in a movie, ever complained about Thor despite being a devout Protestant?
Americans give no fucks.
>>44609545
Some emotions.
He was emotionally unstable. It takes strong feelings of rage or greed to guve you a power boost. He was mostly afraid or raging, and kept going back and forth between the two.
>>44605714
But that's X-23, a very well developed character who's life is worse than Peter Parker's.
She's Just wearing her "father's" suit. But she's the same character she's been for almost a decade.
>>44605805
The south asian Ms. Marvel isn't that bad, it's really Femthor that pisses me off.
>>44610753
Post a non-tiny version so I can get mad too
>>44610669
>regen
Yes.
>be immortal
No. He can be rendered brain dead, deprived of enough important organs to be killed, or outright annihilated. The adamantium skeleton makes it even harder, but he's denied that at points in the continuity. All in all, it's challenging, not impossible. He's Warboss-tier ded 'ard.
>>44610587
It's like someone made a Mad Libs of a movie plot, and every blank was 'something that happened in Star Wars.'
They were terrified of original thought, which is not a flaw I'd ever thought I'd throw at JJ Abrams. He writes pure crap sometimes, but it's original crap. But this was just things people remembered from Star Wars.
What should fly around? X-Wings, TIEs, and the Falcon. Forget that even the original movie had a bunch of different Rebel fighters and TIE designs, everything is boiled down to those three because it takes no effort to remember them.
What are the bad guys? The Empire. Literally the Empire, same armour, same weapons, same ships, same doomsday weapon, same overbearing presence across the galaxy, same Space Nazi ideology, slightly updated but without any originality.
Who are the heroes? The Rebellion. Forget that the last trilogy ended with the Rebellion winning and going on the establish the New Republic, the story of New Hope doesn't work if you have them as an actual government and TFA is nothing if not a New Hope clone, so it's the same hodgepodge plucky upstarts.
TFA is not a bad film because of Mary Sue or SJW or any of that. It's bad because it's recycled scenes from previous Star Wars movies taped together into a crude plot with so many edges you'll bang your shins going anywhere. They wanted to appeal to 'old fans' and ended up just giving them the same thing they liked before in HD.
>>44610481
He said he was posted on sanitation duty on Starkiller Base, which you can either read as just what he did when he was there for some reason (the janitor explanation), or it could be for some past infraction that he was posted on Starkiller Base as a punishment, which could be interesting if clarified in future
>>44609436
Presumably it's because he's referring to the characters in the picture, both of whom are fuckups fucking up. Though one of them at least has the excuse of being new.
>>44610753
Femthor didn't bother me on the core concept. It was the Ninja Theory quality level of PR that made the whole thing suck.
>Marvel: "We're going to have a Female Thor!"
>Fanbase: "Uh... okay. As long as she's written well and doesn't screw with things already established we can deal."
>Issue 1: "ARE YOU MAD YET NECKBEARDS?! YOU'RE SO MAD! YOU'RE SO MAD! HERE HAVE A STRAWMAN! AND ANOTHER STRAWMAN!"
>>44610773
>>44610669
Well, he's come back from a single cell before. He's got Plot Immortality, where he can die for a few months, a year on the outside, then come back.
>>44610788
>
They were terrified of original thought, which is not a flaw I'd ever thought I'd throw at JJ Abrams. He writes pure crap sometimes, but it's original crap. But this was just things people remembered from Star Wars.
Did you not see Star Trek Into Darkness? That movie was nothing but condensed and concentrated Star Trek tropes.
>>44610808
What would 'sanitation duty' be beyond janitor duty? Shooting trash compactor monsters? They turned the whole planet into a weapon while hiding that fact from the galaxy, it's not like there's a need for a ton of security.
>>44610334
>in order to retain her slavish devotion to her religion.
She's actually pretty much the Muslim equivalent of a Christmas-and-Easter Catholic, IIRC.
>>44610821
I'd have been happy if it'd just been a genderflipped Thor, because of some bullshit Loki pulled (for god's sake, I'm entertained by Nora in RWBY), or something, anything, as long as there was an actual explanation up front. None of this 'well, we decided we wanted a female Thor, writer, now make it happen'.
>>44610459
A mary sue is a character created as a self-insert for the author, typically these characters are also the best at everything because it lets them hog as much spotlight as possible. That's it.
It's not difficult at all to explain or understand, people just needlessly complicate it by applying it to everything they don't like. So now its basically impossible to even use it correctly because everyone assumes its being used wrong the second its uttered like this goober >>44605493.
>>44610788
Hey, even the batshit insane EU was exactly that.
NOBODY wants the Vong to come back, meaning its between the Imperial Remnant and Republic.
E-Wings and K-Wings are shit and the Empire kept using TIE (with more Interceptors) in old continuity too.
No way anyone sane would get rid of the Falcon.
In Star Wars, everyone evil at every point of history had a Death Star. Some ships, some planets, but fucking everyone had them. At least now there's only been three.
>>44609436
OP asks what the experience with mary sues is.
The very definition of a Mary Sue is a player who is disruptive because s/he wants to be the center of attention all the time.
It's basically a synonym for That Guy. Therefore, how can an experience with a Mary sue be anything else But bad?
If someone makes a snowflake but we end up enjoying the session, that doesn't make him a mary sue. Because a MS would entail that everyone in the group does not have fun in the first place.
OP was wrong in putting it that way. He should've just asked "Tell me some of your horror experiences with Mary sues." That would've been correct.
>>44610879
Into Darkness wasn't even Star Trek, though. It was Khan who wasn't Khan, and an action movie/conspiracy theory.
Change the names and the ship design, and it could be any mediocre sci fi film.
>>44610618
>(her Earthly idols, a fascination for which she's criticized by her parents)
Well no shit, if she's a Muslim she's not supposed to be idolizing anybody. That's kind of the whole point of the religion.Not that a lot of Muslims don't clearly forget that when it comes to Mohammed.
>>44610881
I mean, there's a difference between the implication of 'janitor' (implying that was the entirity of his job as a stormtrooper), and the idea that he worked sanitation as a punishment for whatever reason, which doesn't preclude him being good at fighting.
>>44610881
>What would 'sanitation duty' be beyond janitor duty?
Disposing of corpses. Corpses that may not actually be dead yet.
>>44610808
>>44610881
Reminder that Hitler Youth fulfilled public services, spying in the meantime, until they were old enough to join the SS.
A Nazi Stormtrooper may have begun his service at twelve years old delivering milk and listening at windows at the same time.
So Finn being a sanitation worker prior to being drafted into the Stormtrooper Corps makes perfect sense.
>>44610888
>very conveniently forgets to add that a defining trait of Mary Sues is being annoying. It paramount that Mary sues are annoying, otherwise they're only self-inserts which, in itself, is not inherently wrong.
Ergo, OP should've phrased his wishes better.
>>44610885
Have they explained the origin yet or has the idea been shitcanned?
I remember the sales of Issue 2 had like an 80% drop off from Issue 1 and it only continued to fall.
>>44610953
That wouldn't be before he was a stormtrooper though, considering he stated sanitation was his duty while stationed on Starkiller Base. At least I assume no non-First Order members were allowed on it, given it was probably meant to be secret until fired
>>44608702
>>44608721
Right, and what he does is Not Die. His fighting 'style' has always been portrayed as brute force and not quitting.
(he's also no longer the best at that, as he is, in fact, dead)
>>44610974
it's paramount that
>>44610980
Not that I'm aware of. I haven't payed that much attention either. The only thing I saw them explain was that the new Thor was Jane.
>>44610898
>NOBODY wants the Vong to come back, meaning its between the Imperial Remnant and Republic.
But TFA wasn't Remnant and Republic. The First Order had all the same reach and power as the Empire, and the Republic only showed up when it was being obliterated. It wasn't a civil war over the fate of the galaxy after the fall of Rome, it was back to Rebels vs. Empire with a name change.And fuck you for reminding me Thrawn wasn't the villain of TFA
>>44610898
>E-Wings and K-Wings are shit and the Empire kept using TIE (with more Interceptors) in old continuity too.
What about the A-Wings? Y-Wings? B-Wings? All of them are unique and interesting designs, but this movie was just all X all the time.
They don't have to get rid of old stuff, but they got myopic and threw out 75% of the variety from the old movies.
>>44605481
I literally have never encountered a mary sue while playing tabletop.
Most likely because I am not running a TV show over here, and because I work with players who make bad characters instead of just being embarrassed and disgusted by them.
The outline of Star Wars: TFA is essentially the outline of A New Hope with all the nouns changed.
Last I heard, Wolverine is dead. The last storyline he appeared in was called "The Death of Wolverine." Don't know if he's coming back from this one.
My personal theory as to why he always gets BTFO is that he knows his powers well enough that he can survive whatever punks him, allowing the rest of the team to observe their opponent's abilities and formulate an effective plan.
>>44610842
>Plot Immortality
Identical outcome, but very different states. Let's just say he's not an immortal by in-universe standards, but he's a title character unlikely to finally and conclusively die within the next, say, decade or two.
>>44609656
Except that despite being traumatised by his buddy dying in front of him, Finn has no issue with blasting an entire hangar of the only people he's ever known. They threw away all his potential development after the first ten minutes and turned him into comedic relief.
When you make a stormtrooper- which is literally designed to be a faceless mook- a main character, you're exploring interesting ground by saying mooks aren't just mooks, they have their own stories. But when Finn goes willy-willy murdery on them, you're just falling back into faceless mook territory. There could have been so much more. Finn could have been a good character. Rey was doomed from the start.
>>44610753
Get mad.
>>44610989
Finn's own book tie-in had him in training and basically ends before the start of the movie.
The guy who left the bloody handprint on his helmet was a guy he was friends with, the riot trooper who fought him after yelling traitor was in it too.
>>44610941
Who's corpses? Who would they fight on their secret base planet?
>>44610953
He was raised from birth as a trooper, though; I can see Vader Youth, but he's way too old to still be doing that, especially if he's now got a job as a literal first-boots-on-the-ground stormtrooper on Kylo Ren's Star Destroyer.
>>44611016
>What about the A-Wings? Y-Wings? B-Wings?
Too 1980s.
>>44610885
It's not like Norse mythology lacks dozens of badass female deities and demi-gods.
That's the problem with all these rewritten characters. They're just female versions of established characters, not anything original.
>>44611066
So was he on Starkiller before his training was done? Does the book actually elaborate on what he did there?
>>44611071
Executing prisoners they had brought back there. Starkiller seems to be the general place for prisoners after all
>>44611016
I don't disagree with the lack of variety. Just that the T-70 is superior to T-65's and E-Wings.
Fuck, I wanted to see Defenders and A-Wings dogfighting. Not to mention they cut the entire ground battle with the snow tanks and new AT-AT things.
Here's to hoping the sequel will go nuts though.
>>44611076
Bullshit. They brought back fucking feathered 80's hair for the movie, they can bring back the old ships. The whole point of the movie was to be a love letter, but they don't even remember what comes after 'Roses are red.'
>>44611053
Who's the All-Mother?
>>44611071
>Who would they fight on their secret base planet?
Exactly. It's thanks to the Sanitation Corps that you don't know whose corpses they dispose of regularly. It means they're doing a good job.
>>44611103
Executing prisoners does not seem like the job Finn had, considering the first thing he does in the movie is not execute prisoners.
>>44611124
Frigg?
Sick of that Muzzie dyke. White Christian characters in white Christian countries and Arab Muslim characters in Arab Muslim countires.
>>44611023
Deadpool is canon to be unable to die unless the "powers that be" allow it. Marvel has Jack and Stan being supreme deities who control the universe below only Yahweh.
So in a way, DP has literal plot armor. Plus he technically still has this.
>>44611101
Nah, there were differences, the problem with Jane!Thor was that she is literally a beg for SJW-sheckles, and I wouldn't say that if it hadn't been for all the stupid fucking horse shit that happened, including Titania knocking out her husband "because you're a female hero", nevermind the fact that Titania's primary enemy is She-Hulk.
>>44611150
That was before his squadmate got killed in front of him and smear his blood on him. Shit like that tends to shake your faith.
>>44611071
Unless he worked as Sanitation Corps like ten years ago.
Who's to say Starkiller Base changed that much?
>>44611203
>nevermind the fact that Titania's primary enemy is She-Hulk.
Holy shit I forgot that. Another layer of stupid on that whole thing.
>>44610753
Femthor rocks.
>x-23 and ms. marvel
They're not even close to mary sues, if you compare them to the rest of Marvel's retardition in the new books.
>infallible genious black people and dykes with cosmic level powers fix everything including Galactus
>>44611181
>Deadpool is canon to be unable to die
Plenty of Deadpools have died in canon. Mostly by other Deadpools.
>>44609571
The problem with Rey is that the entire plot arc of Force Awakens is rushed. For whatever reason, they bulled through plot arcs that were spread out over the course of A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and all of the characters suffered for it. Their big villain reveal happens almost immediately (and has little to no impact), their protagonist's growth is accelerated to absurd levels (she does the force grab and force persuasion right off the bat, as opposed to at the beginning of Empire and Return), the entire entity of the Republic remains completely nebulous and, apparently, irrelevant (also they didn't blow up Coruscant, explicitly; they named some other system. Where was the Republic based? What WAS the Republic? Why should I care about any of this, and thus care about the First Order? Why is it called 'the Resistance' when the First Order is clearly not supposed to be the power in the galaxy? Are they supposed to be the power in the galaxy?).
All of the fine details are perfectly alright. Finn and Poe are wonderful, Ford and Fisher fucking NAILED their performances, Ford especially, I liked Rey but agree that they pushed her growth way too fast (the tech stuff actually makes sense, but speaking 'droid' did not; that was my only actual problem with her), Kylo Ren was an absolute mess and has good potential for character growth, General Hux was great... but the film completely lacked any world building. We are left knowing NOTHING about the galaxy at large that we didn't know from the opening scroll (the First Order is evil, the Resistance is good, Luke never founded a Jedi order) and even those details pose more questions than they answer.
>>44611168
Confirmed for British.
See, Brit Muslims are crazy because they refuse them that tender local lovin'.
You want em sweet, you gotta taste that caramel qt pie.
>>44611215
Shook him pretty damn deep, pretty damn fast. You'd imagine someone with combat experience would be used to that, especially if you believe Bookfag up there about him being a elite soldier.
>>44611252
>dykes with cosmic level powers fix everything
>>44611282
They aren't British, they are Arab, or North African, or Turkish or w/e they crawled from.
To be British you must be English, Norht Irish, Scottish or Welsh
>>44611053
I don't see what's so bad about this.
>>44611181
Almost every regenerating hero on Marvel universe has technical immortality and by that extension the only true ways to kill would be 1. Take away their regeneration ability. 2. Annihilate them from existence (remove any all traces of that they ever existed). 3. Plot-Armor piercing bullets.
>>44611276
Because writers allowed it, removing his plot armor.
In his ongoing, T-Bone actually killed him and Death told him the powers that be won't let him die yet so he didn't.
No other explanation as to hiw he survived other than Death saying he won't.
You cannot get a more literal form of plot armor than that. You know, unless she physically handed him armor given specifically by the writer I guess.
>>44611280
>General Hux was great
Boo. He was a piss-poor Tarkin knockoff, and frankly him surviving was the cherry on the shit pie that was the third act. They killed literally nobody of consequence, except Han, who had the writing on the wall for the entire film.I agree with the rest, good summary
>>44610999
Can't wolverine speak like 16 languages and know basically every martial art ever and fly planes and all kinds of other things? I mean he's not a rocket scientist sure, but I wouldn't say his only skill is brawling poorly. He can beat iron fist and captain America in a straight fight on a good day.
>>44611313
You kidding? Almost everything is British.
They're the other Spanish. They stuck their dick and flag in everything from Alpaca to Zulu and left half-limes everywhere they went.
>>44611371
>He can beat iron fist and captain America in a straight fight on a good day
>captain America in a straight fight on a good day
>captain America in a straight fight
>captain America
Ha ha no
>>44611371
That's just the product of hundreds of different writers over the course of several decades.
It's why the flash went from a plucky, bright eyed youth who just went fast and became some fucking cosmic deity in his most recent comics.
Decades of baggage
>>44611291
>combat experience
I think this was something Finn didn't actually have. He was skilled at weapons, both ranged and melee, and at tactics but only in training exercises or simulations. Then he got into an actual firefight and realized people die when killed, that this isn't like in his vidyagaems and that the First Order might not be the good guys..
>>44611347
My point is the actual stated reason he's still alive is that the writers won't let him die.
Its one thing to write a regeneration factor, its another to have the character blatently told "you don't die no matter what unless the writers say so".
>>44611371
You seem to be confusing Wolverine with Batman.
>>44611203
It wasn't because she was a female hero, it's because she was a female Thor. Titania was stoked that Mjolnir was going all Girl-Power.
Still a stupid moment though.
>>44605481
Kamala ain't a mary sue. X-23 is just a kuudere. Like Rei from Evangelion.
Whor is an example of a Mary Sue. Basically every new marvel female character besides these two is a mary sue.
>>44611371
In addition to >>44611421, no he can't. He's a better-than average fighter but his trick is just letting people hit him until they get tired. CA or Iron Fist would and have wrecked his shit. Also, he gets abilities as the plot demands, but repeated brain trauma makes him forget it. Wolverine's history is basically, "spend a few immortal years learning something, have your brain leak out your ears, heal, forget."
>>44605928
Were they fucking the GM?
>>44611398
People who think being British means anything crack me up.
>>44611500
It doesn't matter, it's nonsense, especially since there's still a female Thor on Earth.
>>44611407
Yeah, pretty much.
The strongest superpower in the entire Marvel universe is "being Captain America".
>>44611500
If you cut from her saying she won't fight femThor to getting a Mjolnir to the face, its a pretty good moment.
I chock it up as "don't explain the joke" rather than an irredeemably bad scene.
>>44605481
Ms. Marvel and the waifu from HMQ are pretty far from being Mary Sues.
>>44611720
>the waifu from HMQ
Laura a best
>>44608353
>> lives in new jersey
What are you trying to imply with that?
>>44609521
>implying replacing Kasdan would EVER be a good thing
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001410/
You stupid assholes do realize that the plot-twist for episodeVIII is that it was actually Rey that did the massacre of the new jedis, right?
>>44612770
It's implied she's been on the shithole planet since she was a kid, how would that work out?
>>44612770
I can only hope the writers aren't as retarded as you
>>44612770
Abrams get off 4chan and stop being salty they fired you.
>>44612770
Are you serious? She would have to do that as a child, before she had any mastery of the force.
>>44610369
Nah. Well, maybe, but snap judgments based on next to no information is not a solid foundation.
>>44609317
Technically he married a senator, which isn't too impressive.
>>44610369
Well, a feminist, actually.
[Spoiler]so yes [/spoiler]
>>44607237
I covered that.
It was far, FAR too much of a reversal all at once, to the point where it utterly shattered suspension of disbelieve.
Either have her domination be less total, or have HIS from before be less of a curb-stomp, because he was utterly, 100% owning her ass, hurt and fucked in the head as he was.
Too good, at too many things, too goddamn fast.
>>44610063
I think you misunderstand a bit.
Finn doesn't mind combat.
Finn had a problem when he had the blinders bitchslapped off his face that yes, he was working for the Space Nazis, and turns out, no, he doesn't have the stomach for killing unarmed people on their knees.
>>44612924
>this time, it is the youngling who kills everyone
EPVIII Directed by M. Night Shayamalan
>>44609317
>Luke
His piloting skills were there, he only became a powerful Jedi after additional training after he got his ass wooped by Vader at Cloud City. Besides, the Force works the way it does & that's why Luke destroyed the Death Star.
>Han
"What a piece of junk!" was both Luke & Leia's first reaction to the Millennium Falcon & Han earned Leia's vagina through saving her on the Death Star, on Hoth, etc.
>Anakin
Anakin's entire story is how his flaws corrupted him & how he only managed to redeem himself through sacrificing his life for his son.
>>44610682
Because Cap doesn't see them as gods. He sees them as extra-dimensional beings that are misattributed to gods.
>>44605481
Nice troll thread, boss.
>>44613630
The irony.
>>44611003
And also, Jane is dying of cancer.
No. Seriously.
>>44605481
I hate you stupid pretentious fucks who don't know your own asshole from a hole in the ground and yet want to use the term Mary Sue just to put a label on shit you don't like instead of actually explaining why you don't like it. And you'll shit in anyone's mouth who points out the problems with using it the way you are.
Cowards who take refuge in labels because your opinions are flimsier than your understanding of the media you profess to love. Idiots who think demeaning others is the same thing as elevating yourself.
