How many active epic-level adventurers are there in a setting like Forgotten Realms at any given time?
Too many.
Not many. Most end up as gods or trans-dimensional beings before all is said and done.
No, this is not an excuse for you to make the PCs suddenly cease to exist because it's statistically impossible for them to be together.
>>44592418
Well, improbable, but not impossible. After all, it's happening.
But would a party of, say, 5 epic-level adventurers represent a significant threat to world peace if they decided to go rogue?
I think the average statted NPC in FR is level 12.
This is in AD&D 2E, where level 30 is considered "demigod".
>>44592359
We use the 1% rule.
I think 2nd ed d&d mentioned it.
1%of the worlds population are classed "adventures". The other 99% are NPC classes ( warrior, commoner, bandit, blacksmith, farmer etc.)
Out of that 1%, 30% are fighters, 30% are rogues...with the remaining divided up equally.
>>44592463
I'd say yes.
Which is why mid level parties are watched carefully.
>>44592820
>I think 2nd ed d&d mentioned it.
You misrembered it a little bit. This is from the DMG.
>>44592944
Goddamn NPCs stole my image
>>44592944
Thx m8.
>>44592944
>"you misremembered it, it wasn't 2ed, it was 2ed. here, let me post and image of the 2ed DMG"
>>44593052
He meant % wise I think.
>>44593052
>being hostile for no reason
Let's back up here. I meant that 2E didn't say 1% of the world is classed adventurers, it said you could refine it to that point if you wanted to.
>>44593103
yeah i just re read that and decided to put down the bottle.
This is simply how I do it:
population/(2^level) = how many people exist of that level
Furthermore I say that 90% of indivudals do not have PC class levels, period. A further 9% have a composite of NPC and PC class levels. The last 1% have PC class levels.
This means you roughly need ((population)/(2^20))*(1/100)*(1/32)=1, solving for population to find a level 20 indivudals of any given class (in pathfinder).
So, by this formula, you need a population of roughly 3.3 billion indivudals to ensure there is a level 20 indivudals of each PC class. You require 1 million indivudals to have a level 20 character, but likely they are an NPC, or a composite.
Furthermore the population of the Earth in a time medically/technologically/etc. equivalent to Golarion was ~990 million. In golarion/eberron/dragonlance/etc. there are shit tons of people at high level, I dislike this.
I use my formula, people are free to use others. In the setting I actually GM in there are approximately 2.1 billion indivudals in the world. Which means a level 20 of each class (again, pathfinder) does not actually exist. When making the setting I determined randomly who got level 20s and who didn't.
>>44593118
>Furthermore the population of the Earth in a time medically/technologically/etc. equivalent to Golarion was ~990 million. In golarion/eberron/dragonlance/etc. there are shit tons of people at high level, I dislike this.
You need to factor in the external pressures of having FUCKING DRAGONS EVERYWHERE. I imagine a planet where magic exists and getting turned to stone was a real possibility would have a higher number of high-level characters
>>44593111
Hey, I was impressed I remember it at all. From a book I haven't opened in 15 years.
I was off by a percent( sorta). Fuuuuck, I'll take that.
>>44593211
Yeah, I understand this, this is why I hate these kinds of settings.
>>44592964
>mfw cripples have more health than scholars
>>44593118
I do this, then cap all NPCs I haven't specifically named and made major roles in the setting at level 10.
>>44593118
Also, to add onto this. I use random generation when beginning a country/setting and then build off the random building for ideas. I wrote a short script that you give a population number for a town and it gives you everyone's levels and classes.
Gave me a level 17 rogue once in a small town, which was odd, but possible.
>>44592359
>Hey /tg/ does DnD make sense?
i suddenly find myself wondering if anyone on a NWN roleplay server ever just spent their time wandering around saying "HEY ELMINSTER I HEAR THERE ARE HOT SLUTS AROUND HERE" near any problems
shit's got to be a pretty efficient way to solve local problems
>>44592359
>Like Forgotten Realms
Way too many.
>In my games.
Maybe, maybe one or two besides the PCs. D&D Epic Level parties are the sort of things that derail interplanar politics (they sent several global political spheres into tailspin long ago) and shrink the list of gods in existence. You can't have more than two or three of the things in operation with a straight face if there's any kind of stability in anyone's life anywhere.
>>44592418
If we're talking Forgotten Realms, any high level adventurer would have long since found a Spelljammer ship and gotten off the rock to go where the real action is. Heck, look at the Baldur's Gate series, you find 3 Spelljammer ships in your adventures (most in 2), granted you sink one in a cutscene and kill the crew of the other two. They're all over the place. And worse come to worse, just head to Waterdeep and hitch a ride on the next ship heading offworld.
Only casuals stay on Farun.
>>44592359
none. By the time you're approaching epic levels, the planes beckon. By that point nothing left on the planet should feasibly be able to harm you, so threats must come from outside.
>>44601077
I feel that this is largely based on DM choice and preference, but the spirit of what you say is true.
>>44593118
That makes it so that it would be statistically improbable for any of the various mage guilds to exist.
>>44601077
According to d20 modern, a modern tank platoon (4 tonks) can kill a level 20 fighter in a single round if he rolls and they all connect, assuming he has average HP.
Luckily, nothing like that exists in your average D&D setting.
>>44601143
That including magic items and damage reduction and stuff?
>>44593615
probably retired, after long years of swindling himself into lifelong comfort.
>>44601157
Rolls poorly*
No; it's him standing there naked. Depending on what the fighter's endgame kit is, he might or might not be able to disable them all before they land a critical blow, but they're an example of a bunch of otherwise low-leveled NPCs (counting the crew, that is) being able to go toe-to-toe with an endgame character:
highter tier classes would probably have easier ways of destroying and/or disabling them.
>>44601143
well, its not that /nothing/ like that exists, its that the things which are their equivalent are creatures which prefer to live in solitary for fear others might steal their gold, so getting 4 of them, old enough and working together. would be near-impossible.
>>44601130
A population one 1 million can support a fairly large organization of arcane casters if you consider adepts to be added as arcane when working with arcane PCs.
Even if it only PC classes a population of 1 million will have 9 level 10 PCs in it. There are Wizard, Witches, Sorcerers, Magus, Arcanists, Summoners, and Bards. That's 7 of 32 classes. At least one of the level 10s is gonna be a arcane caster. Then double it for the levels below. 20 level 9s, 40 level 8s, 80 level 7s, 160 level 6s. Once you get down to level 5s, add in adepts, factor in non caster employees, an organization of spell casters if very feasible.
>>44601235
>>44593118
I got by organization. [Running 5e]
The average person: 1st level
The average petty sheriff, town mage, or leader of a small group: 3rd level
Average 'heroic type' or leader of a moderate sized town: 5th level
Important NPCs, leaders of organizations, etc: 6-9th level.
Very important lore characters: 10+
I'm not a fan of double digit levels, so I play almost unofficial E10. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning then running into a level 10+ character in one of my settings.
>>44601279
I am all for not having too many powerful character, but level 10 being the cap seems a tad low.
Again just because I prefer my method do I expect everyone to.
I feel as if 1 out of every 100 million indivudals being a level 20 PC is uncommon enough, but you may think differently.
>>44592359
Adventurers are the 1%. Epic level adventurers are the 0.001% of the 1%. And some of them might hang around, but they also leave and go plane walking.
>>44601302
I just think the ruleset breaks down at those levels, and i prefer the setting have only a handful of such level characters. If you can't count all level 15+ characters of the setting on one fist, I tend to imagine it as being too many.
>>44592463
That depends on a lot of the context.
Our own Party has a Divine Space Ship with a death ray and infinite resources, we live in a crazy ass Age of Sail and are trying to figure out how to:
1. Keep the cool Space ship
2. Not completely Shrek the world
3. Not get shrekt'd by the gods for shrekting the world.
Did I mention, the gods took a vote on whether or not to kill us by destroying the world?
It's currently a deadlock, and I have have only the foggiest idea of how we're going to come out of this unexploded.
>>44601362
It depends on your setting's population really. In order to have the countable on less than one hand it would be ~25000000 indivudals.
Again, I prefer it one way, you do another. It doesn't really matter one way, it's a difference of taste.
In my Pathfinder setting everyone has a class level according to their role. Starting at normal adulthood for a race, class level is the character's age divided by six, round down, then modified by supposed ranks and/or experience (mooks like rank-and-file soldiers/thugs are unmodified, mooks-plus like sergeants/gang leaders/city guards gain two levels, and two levels for each rank above that). Mages are full casters, fighters are martials (Path of War), and such. Those who do not qualify for a definite role are some sort of a rogue.
>>44601401
I'd advice simply not to shrek the world and work together with the gods.Or shrek them instead of the world.
What is the in-setting reason that some people are just stronger and more skilled (PC classes) than others (NPC classes)? Destiny? Innate talent? Do they just train harder?
>>44601461
The difference between those who are simply better is the PC stat block vs the NPC stat block (or point buy budget).
For classes it is the difference between a soldier and a veteran, someone who is sneaky and a diamond thief. It really is more training under harsher conditions. A warrior that survives a campaign on the front will probably come out of it with fighter levels.
>>44601461
I go with any of the above, but usually its a combination of more natural talent and more training.
>>44601143
an epic level fighter has all the connections and all the money. If there are any tanks to be owned, he's probably going to be the one owning them.
>>44592359
Depends if having orgies with epic level non-adventures, deities and each other counts as being active.
>>44601143
He only needs what DR 5/1 to ignore all their attacks?
>>44593615
>Be level 17 rogue in small town
>Be a respected veteran/elder of the town, own a decent-sized house with my significant other with potential offspring
>Live off the spoils and riches of my earl adulthood adventuring across the country
>Regale townsfolk of stories and moments of my adventures
>One night, random PCs break into my house because some schmuck I pissed off back when I was level 7 grew a pair and tried to have me get killed
>Rogue's reaction is pic related.
>>44601461
Usually a combination of innate/natural talent (represented by having higher stats) and being thrust into deadly situations so often that you know how to keep yourself alive longer, or hit harder/smarter, or tap into more magical energy, or increase your devotion to your patron diety, etc.
>>44592359
Cerea's adorable.
>>44601642
Nah, your average tank shell is going to be doing something like 5d8 points of damage minimum. Not enough to drop a high level Fighter, but he'll definitely feel it.
>>44592359
Active? Fuck all. The only reason Faerun is not on fire is because all the high-level characters keep each other in check. It's D&D Cold War.
>>44601708
Why would gods even continue to empower their followers to such ridiculous levels that they could become a threat?
>>44593118
So, you're saying that 100% of population is comprised of 0-lvl mooks?
>>44602281
How'd you get that out of the post?
>>44602237
Because generally you don't give someone you think will turn against you that much power. Plus, if they ever do, you just shut the power off.
Also gods are generally unkillable in D&D.
>>44601461
They sold their soul and freewill to accomplish a certain task.
>>44602237
Because the risk of them turning on their Patron is less than what they are empowered to fight.
>>44602281
0lvl EXPERTS, thank you very much.
>>44602660
2^0 =1
so population/1 = population
ie 100% of population = 0 lvl
Daily reminder that towns with a population of 693 and assets of 6,340 gp are ruled by high level wizards.
>Maeruhal (Village): Conventional; AL NG; 200 gp limit; Assets 6,340 gp; Population 693
>Authority Figures: Mayor Rinlin Pulgro (NG male human evoker 14/Halruaan elder 2).
>Important Characters: Kelvrim Errowd (LN male human diviner 11/Halruaan elder 1), Dobyo Flurrig (NG male human abjurer 12/Halruaan elder 2), Inyda Lauz (LG female human diviner 12/Halruaan elder 4), and Drindos Bez-Mont (N male human evoker 13/Halruaan elder 2)
Halruaan Elder is a full casting prestige class, and a really good one at that.
>>44603868
>Yaulazna (Hamlet): Conventional; AL LE; 30,000 gp limit; Assets 9,000,000 gp; Population varies (about 180), averages 300
>Authority Figures: Yargo (LE male lightfoot halfling rogue 9/Great Sea corsair 8), the Pirate King of Yaulazna. Important Characters: Zuusted Nimderval (NE male human conjurer 20), Yargo’s right-hand man
>Yargo has a powerful friend—a renegade wizard from Halruaa named Zuusted Nimderval (NE male human conjurer 20), who has developed a variation on the plane shift spell that actually causes the entire shantytown to vanish to another plane temporarily.
Here we have a pirate hamlet whose ruler's right-hand man is a level 20 conjurer wizard who Plane Shifts the whole "shantytown" to another plane.
>>44603877
A little less crazy in the Silver Marches, but you still have mid-level rangers and wizards hanging out in population 226 hamlets.
To be fair, most place in the Forgotten Realms also have absurdly powerful monsters hanging out just a stone's throw from most towns.
The reason you have a Hamlet with a level 16 Wizard in it is because without that Wizard the Hamlet would have been destroyed long ago.
>>44592359
In my game I've been GMing things are a little different from the norm. There is a higher abundance of mid-level and high-level NPCs due to the overall difficulty in my campaign and the fact that my players are all 4+ year veterans.
Breakdown of world population:
75% NPC classes with no class levels
10% NPCs with 1-4 class levels
5% NPCs with 5-10 class levels
5% NPCs with 10-15 class levels and/or dual classing
4% NPCs with 15-20 class levels with dual classing or Prestige class.
1% Either the PCs or Epic Level NPCs
>>44601198
Right. So a Firing Squad of tanks can kill a 20th level fighter if he's buck naked and unable to dodge.
I'm not hugely impressed as I imagine the chance of them all hitting drops like a stone once he's got his actual gear on.
