>You have tracked the evil warlord to his keep and slain/detained all of his underlings and lieutenants, he is the only one left
>As you approach his throne, he gets up, draws his sword and drops it on the floor
>He takes a step towards you, and removes his breastplate
>Once he is within a few feet of you and your party, he raises his fists and adopts a fighting stance
What do you do?
Hard mode: There is a LG paladin in your party.
>>44363065
Strip
And engage in the manliest way to settle a debt
Brutal Fisticuffs
Detect magic.
>>44363065
I crack my knuckles and charge him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPZVGpvHdtQ
Time to punch him, punch him HARD.
I quickly cast dispel magic on him and the cleric reminds the paladin that he put a 17 I strength for a reason.
>>44363065
Push him out the window like my party did to the last BBEG we faced.
>>44363065
Join him because I'm obviously on the wrong side.
>>44363065
Either pity him because he's a Monk.
Or immediately panic because he has Nanomachines, son.
The best way to test this is to have the Paladin strip as well and have them duel with fisticuffs. If its the former, the Paladin will have won with his honor intact. If its the latter, the Paladin will have lost with honor intact, and well gave come up with a new plan of attack in the meanwhile, mostly one involving a Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, and Black Tentacles.
>>44363119
Hold Person
Paladin knows just as well as anyone else you can't take chances with someone responsible for as much evil and death as him, so we bring him to justice
>>44363065
Fight him? Why do you think an LG Paladin would have a problem with cutting him down then and there?
>>44363154
Because the code of conduct of paladins strictly forbids striking an unarmed opponent with a weapon.
Did he give a fair death to all those he's killed and harmed? I thought so. So why should my paladin NOT hit him with the biggest smite evil I have and follow it with a sword through the torso?
>>44363167
BBEG is likely evil enough the paladin's going to have not that many issues loopholing his code
>>44363167
So you're one of the GM's that'll make a paladin fall for attacking a BBEG that was going to murder everyone because he wasn't holding a dagger in his hands?
>>44363167
>implying that all paladins stick to the code 100%
>>44363167
He has both his arms, though :^)
>>44363065
Show him what I've got.
>>44363065
He's adopting a fighting stance, clearly he's a monk and the armor/sword was just decorative as symbols of his rank.
Are you stupid OP?
>>44363119
This, would follow any leader with such machismo.
>>44363220
>Implying those that don't won't immediately fall
If an opponent clearly gives up his weapons and challenges you to a fistfight, then the paladin must honor the challenge and insist that the party either stays out of it or also refrain from using weapons. If they don't, it's a clear violation towards the code and grounds for falling.
>>44363230
You... do know that a fighting stance can be something like pic related, right?
You don't have to be a master martial artist to know the basics of CQC.
>>44363272
The paladin accepts the challenge, immediately concedes and at that point the party dogpiles the BBEG
the BBEG merely challenged HIM, not his party members and didn't wager anything on the challenge
>>44363119
>Press 'F' to pay respects
As to the OP, I am the LG Paladin of my party. We settle this like men.
>>44363309
You do know you're a faggot.
>>44363322
>Being an underhanded weasel that goes "You didn't say anything about my friends here killing you!"
That's a fallin'
>>44363272
>trying so hard to make the paladin fall
>>44363359
paladin is lawful good, not lawful neutral
if stopping a mass murderer from living to genocide another day means rules lawyering the shit out of his code, then so be it
heck if at any point the paladin starts to resemble Javert, he falls
>>44363272
>autism
>>44363395
Who said you have to let the mass murderer live? The only thing you have to do to not fall (or at the very least to not get major no-no points with your god) is beat him to death in a duel, honoring his wish for unarmed combat.
Cut him down where he stands. If the paladin gives me any shit about it, tell him to fuck off.
>>44363433
he got his unarmed combat, nothing says the party can't beat the crap out of him afterwards
by the law of the land, the people and his god the mass murderer's life is already forfeit, preventing the law from taking its just course would be a much larger violation
>>44363065
I immediately stab him in the face.
Fucking hell, people, you don't play the BBEG's game on their terms. That's rule number one.
>>44363065
I am the Paladin, and I clasp him in irons, so he may be judged fairly in the eyes of the gods and the law. I instruct the party to cover any possible escape, should he refuse to submit.
I might be tempted to make a "you're coming with me" speech.
>>44363272
It's an arrest, not a duel. If he doesn't go quietly, the paladin is to beat him until he does.
>>44363458
I agree with this notion. Albeit I play a powerhouse superhero who likes to punch first and ask question later, if there's time left.
>>44363453
How is due process being prevented from taking place? The only thing that changes is that the fight takes place without weapons. The BBEG himself probably knows he will die, so he chooses to die with his boots on. A lawful good paladin should grant him that, no matter how evil or vile he has been.
Why should I honor the wishes of a monster? The duel could simply be part of their plan and a gambit to ensure victory. No way am I going to fight on his terms, that's just asking to have the tables turned.
No where in the paladin code does it say that a paladin must accept every challenge.
Nor does it every say never to strike an unarmed man.
Someone is a BIG FAT PHONY.
>>44363496
because you're somehow saying that if the paladin loses the fight the BBEG should be allowed to go free
if not then there's absolutely nothing preventing the party from intervening afterwards anyways and nothing preventing the paladin from conceding the match at any point
>>44363065
How about this then, OP
>the paladin nods and understands the wish of the BBEG
>he waves the monk over
>the monk takes the fighting stance and charges the BBEG
The BBEG got what he wanted: so the paladin won't fall.
Paladin of Freedom, BITCH!
>>44363525
>A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
>Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Of particular note is the "Act with honor" part. There's no honor in cutting down an unarmed man, especially one that is challenging you to a duel.
>>44363526
It was never implied that he would be allowed to go free. All that is required of the paladin is that he gives him the duel. Whatever happens after it is no longer of concern to him, as if he wins, justice has been done and if he loses, he will have served his god with honor to the end and his comrades will see to judging the BBEG, whose wish would have been fulfilled at that point.
>>44363065
>ITT: OP debating stupid shit about how paladins should act/behave and tries to make him fall at all costs
>>44363065
Well, our LG Paladin would Smite the shit out of him with his greatsword and say: "I'm a warrior, not your damn squire you stupid cunt."
While our CN Barbarian would engage in fisticuffs because it'd make an awesome story.
>>44363597
>Of particular note is the "Act with honor" part. There's no honor in cutting down an unarmed man, especially one that is challenging you to a duel.
Acting as an executor isn't dishonorable, nor is the executor required to beat the guilty party in any kind of fight.
>>44363597
>respect legitimate authority
the BBEG has been sentenced to death by the highest authority of the land
>help those in need
people suffer daily under his reign of terror
>punish those who harm or threaten innocents
his evil is well known, undeniable and indiscriminate
3 parts of the code saying to smite a bitch mate
>>44363641
>>44363638
ignore the bait guys, you're better than that!
>>44363272
Let's see here:
>The BBEG might have a knife on him somewhere, ready for a sneak-attack that could leave us a man down, and no longer able to apprehend him.
>The BBEG might be stalling for time, waiting for reinforcements to arrive/their doomsday device to activate/their evil ritual to play out, rendering our earlier efforts pointless.
>The BBEG might be straight-up stronger than our Paladin in a hand-to-hand fight. But the law does not bow before the mighty - it governs all men equally. Even if the BBEG wins the brawl, his sins will still demand justice. So why allow the duel at all? It won't change anything.
Just because the Paladin is Good and Lawful doesn't mean he has to be a fucking idiot.
>>44363597
If the man wants a duel, the paladin can agree to it but the other part members do not.
Allow the paladin to go in and fight. When he fails, the wizard and cleric sodomize the man.
>>44363597
>Of particular note is the "Act with honor" part. There's no honor in cutting down an unarmed man, especially one that is challenging you to a duel.
I've seen my barbarian literally tear a dragon in half with his bare hands. I don't care if he isn't holding a weapon, he might be MORE dangerous while not holding one.
>>44363433
Nigga, my god will APPROVE of it.
>>44363682
he doesn't have to fall, heck its fairly easy to argue that challenging someone to a duel to death when your own death is already guaranteed is the complete opposite of honorable and the paladin is free to ignore dishonorable challenges
paladin can easily concede at any point
>>44363682
And that is exactly what I have been saying. The paladin losing or winning the bout has no bearing on the BBEG's fate. It's just a formality on behalf of the paladin, granting the BBEG his final wish to die with dignity or win one last battle.
>>44363702
Approve of stabbing an unarmed man or beating him to death with your fists?
>>44363735
Not hi mbut.. Both are acceptable.
the paladin in return demands the battle to be conducted naked, all hair shaven and both parties subjected to a cavity search first
>>44363751
Oh yes, this is good, this is very good!
>>44363722
Why does the paladin have to fight?
Why can't the monk fight him?
>>44363735
Approve of stabbing a mass murderer, practitioner of magics forbidden even by CE god of Fuck You And Everything You Believe In and winner of the "Most punchable face 3840-present" award, yes.
There's no need to reason or yield. His death sentence was already signed, i'm just executing it.
>>44363722
Nigga, the BBEG is a massmurdering lunatic who could have who knows what up his sleeve. As a paragon of legitimate authority and protector of the innocent, it's the Paladin's duty to execute the man on the spot. His crimes are known and witnessed. Agreeing to a duel would serve nothing but to endanger more lives. The only right thing is to have justice served immediately. If this is seen as dishonorable, the Paladin can take it. Only thing that matters to him is that lives were saved, evil was destroyed and justice was done.
>All these paladins in this thread not willing to risk death at the end of a campaign to grant the wish of an already beaten man
I get that he's evil, but isn't looking past that in circumstances such as these kind of par for the course for paladins?
>>44363722
Why is the BBEG owed anything?
He's the motherfucking Big Bad Evil Guy. The only thing he's owed is a place on the gallows, and that's only if he comes quietly.
>>44363793
No, it isn't. I'm a paladin. I am here to save as many people as possible. I am not going to entertain a mass murderer because for all I know this is part of his plan.
>>44363793
Not all paladins act the same way: it depends on the individual paladin.
>>44363793
Nah, detect evil, smite evil.
>>44363836
>not just smiting evil with a nerf bat
if the creature is just annoyed it was good or at least neutral and no harm was done, if it falls over dead it was evil
>>44363793
Paladins aren't fucking nannies. They are holy warriors, executors of divine will and law. Their job isn't to make sure that mr. Lecter has a cup of hot chocolate and a warm blanket, it's to /rekt them.
>>44363065
> My last paladin was a Gestalt Sacred Fist/Barbarian
He rips off his shirt, and beats the BBEG down barefisted, and/or powerbombs him into paste.
>>44363815
He isn't. The paladin owes it to himself and his god to act with utmost honor, to be noble and amicable even towards those who have not been such to others.
>>44363877
>>44363877
and in his faith honor means using a well kept and sharpened blade when executing the BBEG, not to obey his every whim
>>44363877
No. While he adheres to martial virtues, honour and valor and all, his first and foremost duties are 1) protect the innocent 2) detroy evil. He isn't fucking stupid, and has no need to let the villain fuck him over because muh honour.
I bet you think Paladins aren't allowed to use combat maneuvers, scout or use ranged weapons.
>>44363597
Now that ain't universal and you fucking know it you fuckwit
>>44363877
Oh, I'll be noble and amicable, alright. I'll make sure he doesn't fall down any stairs or suchlike while I haul his arse to the nearest magistrate.
>>44363597
Doing what the genocidal maniac wants you to do isn't acting with honor, either.
>>44363935
Neither point 1 nor point 2 are threatened if he agrees to the duel. Whatever happens in it, the BBEG will die and no more innocents will suffer due to him.
Literally the only thing that accepting the duel does is place the paladin him/herself in danger of losing and dying.
>>44363998
and like I said before, a dead man's challenge is devoid of honor, paladin has no need to oblige him
>>44363998
>Neither point 1 nor point 2 are threatened if he agrees to the duel.
It very well could be. You do not know the BBEG's plan. He could very well merely be challenging you to stall for time, because he has an ace up his sleeve, any number of reasons.
He is EVIL, why should I trust that he is going into this duel with honor.
But fucking hell, you're just going to ignore my post and this point because it doesn't fit your trolling narrative.
>>44364011
Allowing a dead man one last wish is probably the most honorable thing you can do, though. Especially so if said man has been a mortal enemy of yours.
>>44363065
Stab him. He's evil, you fucking morons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=larzCyTk59I
>>44364031
If you take into account the circumstances, it is unlikely that a warlord whose entire force has been obliterated and/or detained would have some sort of magical hijinks going on in the backdrops that he would be stalling for.
Following the same logic, he has very little reason to cheat in the duel, as winning would not change anything for him. He could be petty and stab the paladin for simple revenge, but that would only make the paladin a martyr who died honoring his creed.
>>44363065
>Happen to be LG paladin with splash of monk class and Ascetic Knight feat.
I simple remove all my gear and do fighting stance. And also I declare that I will fight him alone.
We shall fight like manly men.
ITT
>>44364051
its completely devoid of honor, he's a dead man trying to abuse another man's code of honor into trying to kill one more person before he dies
its nothing short of pathetic
if he's honorable the duel is not to the death
>>44363167
Who ever wrote that anywhere? I've never seen that.
Unless you're the GM and specifically writing out a code of conduct that a paladin has to follow no matter which god they worship (if any), or the book has that written somewhere for an oath or something, I am going to make my own code of conduct based on my paladin's morals and the ideals of the god I worship.
>>44364150
>it is unlikely that a warlord whose entire force has been obliterated and/or detained would have some sort of magical hijinks going on in the backdrops that he would be stalling for.
Unlikely, but not fucking impossible. Am I going to entertain the whim of a mass murderer when it might get innocents killed? Even if it is a small chance?
>Following the same logic, he has very little reason to cheat in the duel, as winning would not change anything for him.
How do I know that? Your logic is "It's unlikely so might as well take the risk". Fucking hell, that's something that will get you killed.
>He could be petty and stab the paladin for simple revenge, but that would only make the paladin a martyr who died honoring his creed.
I don't know what he could do. He could be more dangerous without his weapon and be planning on taking out the paladin before punching the rest of the party to death in order to try and kill what he considers a threat.
You're basically saying because saying because something is unlikely we should take the risk when it could get innocents killed into order to appease a mass murderer. That's not honor, that's lunacy. It's purposefully putting people at risk for one's own bravado.
>>44364181
It isn't even that. We're not saying use underhanded tactics. We're saying when the BBEG tries to make you do something on his terms don't fucking let him.
>>44363793
It depends on if I respect him or not. It's not like he's begging for mercy or something.
If I respect him despite his evil ways, he shall have his fistfight, because I want to allow him to be defeated in the way he would wish to be defeated - it's obvious he's casting aside his arms and armor because he understands his defeat is nigh, and just wants a good fight.
If I don't respect him, if I consider him a horrible evil that has blighted the land and cannot see any good or anything worthy of respect in him, I will strike him down. Because in that case, he does not deserve to end things on his own terms - he lost that right long ago.
>>44364181
Yes, and?
>>44364244
Exactly. You are assuming that evil will fuck you over, so you fuck it over before it does. A regular paladin gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, even the BBEG.
Never fight a villain on their own terms.
>>44364348
No, you give them the benefit of the doubt if, once they're rendered helpless, they show remorse and promise to change their ways.
You don't give them the benefit of the doubt while they're still at large and a threat to society.
>>44364348
And that's why there are so many dead paladins and evil is allowed to spread like it does
>>44364348
Jesus you are retarded.
>>44364348
I give them a benefit of a friendly bop to the head, a fair trial and an almost-painless execution.
>>44364348
Why are you assuming that everyone's avoiding the fisticuffs because they're afraid they'll lose? They just don't want to give the BBEG any sort of satisfaction, or fall for some underhanded trap that could harm the rest of the party.
>>44364484
But that's exactly what I said they are doing. They are refusing the challenge because they automatically assume the BBEG has ill intent, as if evil alignment made it impossible for someone to be honorable or that it was indeed impossible for someone to act against their alignment.
>>44364348
>A regular paladin gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, even the BBEG.
Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
>>44363065
Have the paladin slash him up anyway.
Fighting him on his terms would be disrespectful to the lives he's taken or ruined.
Lawful does not mean stupid.
>>44364348
Being lawful good and honourable does not mean you have to be an idiot.
Executing an unarmed man on the spot is entirely within the Paladins alignment and code of honour if he is guilty of crimes that warrant it.
>>44364537
No one is saying there isn't a chance. There is a chance he just wants a duel before he dies. The problem is, there is also a good chance that he IS stalling for time/has a plan/etc. Taking the risk because it MIGHT not kill innocents should be grounds to fall.
>>44364465
You do not even have to give them a trial, a Paladin is allowed to dispense justice on the spot.
>>44364537
Well, i didn't see him challenging those three villages, his comic relief henchman and Drooly the Bard (RIP Drooly ;_;) for a fist fight, so why I should indulge his murderous ass?
>>44364574
Even if he has a plan, he will still have the rest of the party to deal with, assuming he even wins against the paladin.
>>44364537
Think about most BBEGs - they aren't going to be men that one would consider honorable. They'd be cruel warlords, evil liches, or wizards trying to become gods in their own right. They'll have committed atrocities, harmed hundreds if not thousands of innocents, and probably slapped around the party once or twice when they tried to cockblock the elf.
Sometimes, it just needs to be over and done with for the sake of all that's good in the world. Sometimes an evil man doesn't deserve to die with honor after all that he's done - there's no room for forgiveness. And unless you've been painting the BBEG as this bad guy with good intentions, or an evil knight with a strong code of honor, I'm going to make sure he can't harm anyone ever again, and I'm not going to pussyfoot around it. I'm not fucking Batman - I've been killing far less cruel men as necessary since day one.
How someone described warrior priests in WHFRP seems a good guide here.
'Be a bro to everyone. Unless they are not a bro then smash their skull in'.
>>44364537
By D&D RAW, Evil people always have ill intent.
If you don't like that, don't use D&D alignments. But if you do decide not to use D&D alignments, don't treat a Paladin's code as totally rigid and inflexible, either.
Also:
>herp de derp, Evil people can act against their alignment sometimes
>but a Good Paladin doing Neutral or Bad things now and then?
>like, say, not agreeing to duel a defeated BBEG?
>DURRR PALADIN FALLS
>You have tracked the evil warlord to his keep and slain/detained all of his underlings and lieutenants, he is the only one left
>As you approach his throne you realize it's Santa Claus
what do
>>44364596
Justice is not about revenge. You do not fight evil with evil.
>>44364599
Winning or losing may not even be part of his plan. You're doing this on the BBEG's terms. You're taking a risk to satisfy an evil man when it might be used to kill innocents. Hell, even if it is a 90% chance it is really just a duel there is still a 10% chance it murders innocents. That is a chance that should not be taken.
>>44364557
>Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
Judging by most posters ITT, it's more like:
>Good will always triumph because Evil thinks do-gooders are dumb.
>>44364608
Evil people always have ill intent, true. But they are not idiots and realize when they've lost and that such intent is no longer going to be realized.
And that makes sense, as a paladin can fall. The BBEG could move towards another alignment, but he cannot fall.
>>44363065
>Strip down to underclothes
>Turn to Paladin
>"You know what to do."
>Paladin reaches into his bag of holding and pulls out a long collapsable ladder
>Bard begins playing an inspiring riff on his sitar
>Druid fashions a rudimentary ring out of wooden stakes and vines
>Equip my Oculars of Grappling
>Turn to my faithful half-Orc companion, D'Von and roar, with the ferocity and baleful joy of all the demons in hell "D'VON, GET THE TABLE."
>>44364610
Well that explains why the elves were all so tiny.
>>44364608
>By D&D RAW, Evil people always have ill intent.
This is actually not true. Specifically not true in the section that discusses alignments in 3e/3.5/PF/5e.
>>44364610
Let's finish this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2jVbSI9H4o
>>44364610
>>44364660
Yeah. You can take that risk, it's fine. I'm not taking that risk.
Likely neither decision is grounds to fall because it's a gray area. I personally am not giving him the benefit of the doubt.
>>44364660
>And that makes sense, as a paladin can fall.
Dude, if a god asks pally to lay his metaphorical badge on the table for bringing murderous asshole in, he's not a god of justice.
I don't even need to kill him. Just say "No, sir, and your strip-tease is not appreciated", hit him over his noggin and put cuffs on the fucker.
>>44364684
I think Asgore's theme would be more appropriate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcamjcoRmrQ
>>44364668
>Strip down to underclothes
>Turn to Paladin
>"You know what to do."
>Paladin reaches into his bag of holding
is this some sort of magical realms thing
>>44364660
I'd want to have a good reason for falling instead of refusing a duel, especially if I happened to be the paladin of a god that cared more about upholding civilization or something.
Like, actually doing an evil act. Slaughtering innocents, refusing to take prisoners when they beg for their lives, stuff like that. Otherwise I'm going to go be a god worshipped by drow.
>>44364717
That's fine, too. Even though you are denying him his wish, you are not murdering an unarmed man in cold blood just on the grounds that he did so to others.
>>44364660
You just refuse to accept you are wrong, despite everyone else telling you so? Executing him on the spot is perfectly within the Paladins rights and in line with his alignment. Being a retard is not required for the class.
>>44364760
Yes I am. I am executing a monster so he does not have to chance to commit the crime again. If I have been ordered to bring him in then I will, but if not I am going to execute him where he stands.
I didn't carve my way through his army to put handcuffs on him and drag him to a trial that is a mere formality. I came to commit justice, and I shall do so.
>>44364760
But the Paladin is allowed to execute him on his own authority after he is captured.
How is knocking a guy out then cutting his head off any more moral than cutting him down while he is on his feet and facing you? If one is allowed so is the other.
>>44364729
Only if you consider WWE a fetish. Some might.
On topic, though, I generally find that unless the GM's running a pre-built campaign, they aren't going to be enough of a cunt to throw any kind of instant-fail scenario at the players. The rule of cool abides in final sessions - if you live or die, just make sure you do it with as much style as possible.
Such as suplexing a dragon whilst polymorphed into a giant ape.
>>44363167
In the fucking world where there are niggers with nukes (not so much, but you get the point) as fist? fuck that shit, also he's using his fist as weapons
>BBEG disrobes
>asks for fisticuffs
>looks like this
What do you do?
>>44363082
Fucking this.
>>44364677
Okay, fair cop, but my point was more that D&D alignments are ridiculously rigid, often to the point of making no sense in real-life terms. So if you play with alignments, you're better just turning your brain off and accepting the morals of the game at face-value, rather than digging any deeper. Bad Guys are Bad Guys, Good Guys are Good Guys, and the two are fundamentally opposed (with Neutrals off to the side).
The game is not a perfect model of real-world morality, nor should you treat it as such. Just kill some Goblins and have fun.
>>44364850
Run.
>>44364270
I came here to say this, but you beat me to it.
>>44364795
>>44364804
Formalities are the bread and butter of being a paladin. You are not a bloodthirsty angel of vengeance, but an agent of righteousness that observes all codes that have been laid for you, both by just laws and your god.
>>44364850
Panic
>All this "hurr paladin falls" discussion
>tfw my latest character will probably indulge him
>in the most comical, humiliating way possible
>>44364884
>Formalities are the bread and butter of being a paladin.
No they are not. You don't actually understand how D&D has presented paladins and only have a warped understanding as they are presented by /tg/ memes. Reread the actual fucking paladin code and their fucking class description.
>>44364884
>You are not a bloodthirsty angel of vengeance
Well, of course not. I'm very collected and friendly angel of vengeance.
>>44364850
Oh, I'm stabbing him in the face, no ifs or buts.
This isn't even a case of "he might be baiting me into a trap" - he's perspiring a fucking rhinoceros. If I drop my sword and shield he's going to tear me apart.
>>44364908
Lawful Stupid "smite first, smite again later" paladins are /tg/ memes, though.
>>44364860
Although I'm not a fan of Hackmaster, the 'Alignment Audit' system would make an interesting addition to some campaigns. Especially against groups that enjoy going full murderhobo, butchering fleeing enemies, then showing up at a temple and the priests going 'fuck me, what did you guys do back there? Your alignment is waaaaay off.'
>>44364884
>formalities
A Paladin can march into Evil Kingdom and cut the Evil King in half on the spot even if he is unarmed and in his normal King clothes.
He does not have to beat him up, cuff him then pronounced him guilty before cutting his head off.
>>44364932
The thing is, we're not talking about lawful stupid. How is not indulging the BBEG "stupid"?
You're being an idiot.
>>44364932
Not trusting BBEG not to pull one last "fuck you" from his sleeve is not lawful stupid, though.
>>44364860
But treating the alignments that way leads to boring, one-dimensional characters.
>>44364850
Fuck no am I dropping my sword.
>>44364850
I fucking love characters with spirit (or aura) forming an animal
>>44364850
Bring it, fiend.
>Post thread
>Leave for a time
>Come back
>Thread devolved into paladin wankery
I knew including the paladin clause would do this. Should have left it out.
>>44364966
Then don't use alignments. Otherwise you end up with stupid arguments like the one that spawned this entire thread.
>The whole party is optimized magicians
>BBEG is an optimized magician too
Well, that's gonna be an embarassing end to the campaign.
>>44363065
Brace for impact because he was a god level fist fighter masquerading as a swordsman this whole time.
>>44365012
You can still use the alignments. They are good frameworks to work with.
>>44363065
I stab him in the throat.
Fuck the paladin.
Was he merely an antagonist that did evil, but was a valorous enemy and fought for a cause, SOMETHING that one can look at and understand as worthy?
If so, yes.
Was he an evil fuckwit that did atrocities he did not have to, did not show any remorse or even any form of recognition to all those that lost something?
Then no, stab.
You can be the enemy and still have honor and worth. And those will buy him one final wish., but without them you're just evil and will be struck down as such
>>44365008
I've spent the entire thread arguing that the Paladin would be totally justified in refusing the duel.
But y'know what? If I was there, in the moment, then hell yeah I'd duel the BBEG.
>>44365032
>GM's face when the last confrontation of the campaign is just a bunch of str 6 twigs weakly pushing each other over
The second he drops his sword, I shove mine up his ass.
Then I tear him apart limb from limb.
Then I throw his head at the Paladin and laugh.
After that, I throw his mangled body out the window to scare any of his followers who might still be around.
Eat shit Paladin, Blackguard's got this taken care of.
Everyone in this thread is a retard. The bad dude never asked for a dual he just adopted a fighting stance. He plans to beat the shit out of you all at the same time with his bare hands
>>44365089
>tfw wizard
>tfw transmutation wizard in PF
>tfw jump from 10 strength to 39 strength when going full bore
It's time.
>>44363272
>That guy murdered a whole town full of people, put whole regions to the torch, flayed innocents, etc.
>Justice demands he be put to death, but oh, what's this?
>He wants to brawl, I better oblige hi--
>NO FUCK THAT HE DIES FOR JUSTICE
Fuck your "paladin falls at the drop of a hat" bullshit.
>>44365052
It really does depend on the BBEG for me. Respectable guy, I'd punch him in an awesome fistfight. Guy I don't respect, I stab him.
>mfw I'm a half-giant pugilist
>>44365117
>Justice equals vengeance
>>44363167
I don't believe this in the slightest because it means paladins can't attack casters
>>44365036
Haha no they are not.
They're incredibly broad and vague, sometimes contradictory, and have zero room for relativity.
>>44365099
Blackguard sounds kind of fun.
>>44365106
To add to this if he was able to fight your whole party with his hands he wouldn't count as being unarmed anyway since many places consider boxers hands to be deadly weapons so a paladin would be fine shanking him.
>>44365099
>As the Villain falls, the evil holding his domain together begins to dissipate
>Lightning strikes the earth around you, the walls of this most high spire begin to collapse, a scenery of apocalyptic proportions opens up before you as the entire demiplane begins to collapse.
>The Paladin looks at you while drawing his Holy Avenger.
>"Thank you for doing what I would have struggled to carry out, even if it was necessry. But we have one more villain to deal with. Defend yourself, Blackguard."
>Duel of Fates starts playing as two PC's, Paladin and Blackguard, fight here for one last time, at the end of everything.
>>44363272
I would gladly fall to save the world
>>44365166
Unarmed meaning not having any apparent means of hurting you and maybe even making it known that he doesn't want to fight you, at least not with a weapon.
>>44365164
>justice equals being cucked by the whims of a villain
>>44365197
Nigger he isn't unarmed hes going to fight you with his fists.
>>44365164
>Justice equals mercy
The exact opposite
>>44365164
>implying this still isn't about justice
>>44365187
First, I tell the Wizard to cut that shit out, we're trying to have a serious conversation.
Then I ask the Paladin why the fuck he's hostile to me all of a sudden.
Then I leave. I have committed no crimes, the Paladin has no reason to bring me in or attack me.
If he does, he'll fall for attacking the innocent. Then I can stab him in the face.
>>44365208
Fists are body parts and are not counted as a weapon. A natural weapon, perhaps, but those do not count as weapons when it comes to the code of conduct of a paladin, unless they are actively being used to attack the paladin.
If someone throws away their weapon and raises their fists, but does not attack you unless you also disarm yourself, then that foe counts as unarmed. They have their fists, but they do not intend to use them unless you also do so.
>>44365230
I don't know which is worse, you saying your Blackguard has commited no crimes and attacking you would be grounds for falling, or your utter and total lack of dramatic flair.
>>44365216
Again, there's no implication of mercy in this specific case. You indulge the villain, sure, but he will still die, either in your hands or in the hands of your comrades.
>>44365266
Why indulge him when indulging him has a chance of getting more innocents killed? You're playing his game. I do not understand.
Why indulge the BBEG? Why does he deserve being indulged?
>>44363272
>If an opponent clearly gives up his weapons and challenges you to a fistfight, then the paladin must honor the challenge and insist that the party either stays out of it or also refrain from using weapons. If they don't, it's a clear violation towards the code and grounds for falling.
Bullshit. Paladins are not beholden to evil trickery. It is his right and duty to strike the foe down then and there, lest evil continue.
Repeat with me: Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Nice.
>>44365164
I'm more than willing to bring him alive, and see he serves jail time.
But first he has to explicitly surrender, and submit to detainment. Challenging me to a duel is not surrendering.
>>44365249
Nowhere in the OP does it imply that he wont fight you unless you disarm yourself. The fact that he took up a fighting stance implies that he means to do combat and the fact that he threw away his sword implies that he is better at fighting without it.
>>44365259
I'm Blackguard only because Paladin's ways of getting shit done is too restrictive.
All my wrongdoing falls under the "technically legal" shit, or doing things in areas where laws hold no sway.
Barring that, my Blackguard is incredibly offensive-focused and specializes in duels. If the Paladin DID attack me, it would be an incredibly short fight.
And dramatic flair is one thing. Going to full ridiculous anime levels of shit happening for no reason is just dumb.
>>44363597
>There's no honor in cutting down an unarmed man
Says who? Stop with the bullshit. Acting with honour is to destroy evil wherever it threads. Dragons aren't armed either, you still kill them. Wizards aren't armed.
Challenging to duel does not mean that you have to fight on his terms. He chose his weapon, he knew you were coming, and you choose to end him with your sword. End off.
>>44365289
He didn't even challenge anyone, he just put his fists up. This motherfucker is ready to take everyone on at once.
>>44365273
How does it carry that chance? His army is defeated, he has no weapon and asks for you to grant him this last wish.
Even if he kills the paladin, he's still a warlord without an army, facing several adventurers (who killed all his soldiers, mind you) alone. If there is a chance for him to do more evil, it is so small as to be negligible.
>>44365315
He had a weapon and armour and threw them away. He also didn't say anything.
>>44365315
>asks for you to grant him this last wish.
Actually, read the OP again. He doesn't at all.
He just drops his armor and weapons and puts his fists up. Nowhere does it mention he's issuing any challenge.
>>44363065
inform him that if he means this to be a proper dual, it would be to me as the challenged party to choose weapons, and I choose swords unarmored.
It would be to you to choose time and place.
If you do not mean this to be a dual of honor, then you better get down on your knees and surrender or I am going to put this sword right through you.
>>44365332
Throwing away his weapon and armor is a pretty explicit implication of him having realized he can't win, so he wants to at least die with his boots on.
>>44365353
Or its an explicit implication that he doesn't need them to fucking murder you all.
>>44365249
I'm pretty sure there's a legal principle whereby someone trained in hand-to-hand fighting legally counts as "armed" in any violent altercation, and must justify their use of force as one would if they had used an external weapon.
Admittedly, that's law, and laws =/= morality, but the principle is sound. If I'm a Paladin and a Monk challenges me to a fight, it shouldn't be dishonourable for me to fight with the weapons that I'm strong with, and know how to use.
>>44365249
>Indulge the villain, start unarmed duel
>Villain fights defensively, only blocking and dodging
>Ten rounds in, his lieutenant Wizard teleports in with his most elite troops as reinforcements
>Villain grabs his weapon from the floor
>"Can't believe you were that stupid"
>Teleports away with the Wizard, leaves his bodyguard to fight you, meanwhile kills your family and kills the Big Good while you are away and unable to stop him, goes into hiding to rebuild his forces
>Part Rogue: "Wow, nice fucking job, Paladin"
>>44365164
>BBEG was found guilty of mass murder and is sentenced to death by me, the Paladin
JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED!
>>44365378
If that was the case, then it doesn't really matter what you do, does it? He'll just fuck you up.
>>44365389
Such what if scenarios are just as valid as positing that he fights the duel with honor and with no shady business.
Both are assumptions.
>>44365297
Blackguard are evil like Paladins are good. Just being one is a token of terrible atrocities commited, just like being a Paladin marks him a beacon of virtue. You get your power from Evil, he gets his from Good. He'd be perfectly justified in trying to take you down after a greater, common threat is dealt with
>>44365418
You could say the same if he kept his sword and armour. "doesnt really matter much what we do he'll just fuck us up". You are supposed to fight him, just because he thinks he can beat you doesn't mean he can.
>>44365216
>unironically posting this
You realize that "justice" is just a punishment that, by the current social standards, fairly balances the desire for revenge and mercy.
It's not some binary thing or some spectrum where justice is at one end and mercy is at the other, it's a spectrum between "making them physically and emotionally suffer as much as we possibly can before ending their existence" and "no punishment at all" with "justice" being wherever on that spectrum we decide is "fair" for the crime. This is fluid, and changes with culture and the times, but without the concept of mercy, there is no justice, there is just revenge.
>>44365418
Exactly.
So I take the initiative, and stab him in the face before he can act.
>>44363065
We aren't playing D&D dude and in Anima a paladin is beholden to only his personal code. Just because the BBEG put up his dukes doesn't mean the paladin isn't going to use his great axe to turn him into salad.
>>44365429
Villain. Evil. It's not rocket science.
>>44365446
At no point in OP's post does the BBEG ask for mercy, though. He just wants to go down fighting.
I will happily oblige.
>>44365432
He might want to wait until we're all relaxed and rested up from just defeating the BBEG and his army.
Then he goes to wake me up to arrest me, only to find a bomb with the note "See you soon." attached to it under my blankets.
Then I simply go to where our adventure began and wait for him to arrive and have our fight there.
Bonus points if it's where we were first forced to join forces.
>>44365445
If he kept his sword and armour, there wouldn't be a shadow of a doubt that he still intends to fight you with everything he has and aims to win.
Disrobing and disarming is usually a fiction trope for a last stand.
>>44365467
>There are no evil alignments that respect a show of force such as destroying an entire army
>Evil characters are always retarded and do not realize when they have lost
>>44365468
I was responding to the picture in the linked post, not the ongoing debate.As for the scenario presented in the OP, what i would do depends honestly more on the GM and other players than anything IC.
>>44365489
When you are fighting one on one. When you do it in front of a crowd of people and say nothing it means you intend to beat these fuckers with your fists.
Whats so hard to understand about this? The man is clearly a fist-fighter who wore a weapon and armour for the sake of appearances.
>>44365509
The thing is, he might, but I don't know for sure. How the fuck am I supposed to justify indulging him when there is a chance it might hurt innocents. I owe those innocents more than I do the villain. Giving him the fight is indulging a monster when it might lead to something worse.
I don't care that his army is gone. He might have a plan, and if he manages to escape BECAUSE I indulged him then I should fall. I made the choice to have my bravado rule me, and it meant a monster was set free.
He may actually just want the duel. I can't know for sure, therefore I'm not taking a chance.
>>44365478
No, fuck that. It's gonna go down right here, right now, in this collapsing castle upon this dying plane while epic music booms in the background. No running away, no tricks. Just Good versus Evil in the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny that had been building for the whole campaign.
OP clearly states that he is the only one left, so why are there so many people speculating about some grandiose backup plan?
>>44365540
Or you could stop being a fucking spaz and wait a few minutes so we can have a proper bookend fight.
And goddamnit Wizard, I said cut that shit out, we're having a serious conversation here.
>>44365563
OP also never states he is challenging people to a one on one fight so where are they getting that from?
>>44365563
Because how do I know for sure he is the only one left?
If I know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that he is the only one left and there is no way that indulging him will get innocents killed then I will indulge him.
However, if there is even a sliver of a chance that is not true then no way am I doing that. He doesn't deserve indulgent at the expense of others.
He could be waiting for something to trigger, have an item hidden on his person he wants to activate when up close, have some hidden away forces, any number of things.
The problem is I can't be sure.
>>44365581
>Both sides of an argument are retarded
Just another day on 4chan
>>44365593
Pretty much this.
Better safe than sorry.
>>44363065
>take off armor
>pull out two daggers and hand one to him
We settle this like men. No bloody battering with fists, but one strike at the heart that will end one or both of us.
Also, has anyone noticed that he only removed his breastplate? He probably still has fully armored arms and legs.
>>44365569
Hey, if I know you to be the honourless, conniving and clever cur that you are, I'm not giving you a chance to prep your game. You've got me at a disadvantage for every moment you are allowed to pull your cunning trickster bullshit, so I'm taking that away from you. Best case scenario, even if you beat me, I can delay you for long enough to trap you on the Demiplane. Worst case, this was the best shot I ever had.
>>44364348
No, a regular paladin kills the source of evil before it can kill again. They are literally judge, jury, and executioner. This is why they don't fall when they kill a cultist that has people tied up in a corner of a blood spattered basement.
A Lawful Retarded paladin fistfights a mass murderer.
>>44365608
The whole argument is retarded. For all we know he is a god damn wizard that gear on for the look of it.
>>44365624
Or you can stop being a spaz, once again. I've been an honorable sort this whole time. A dick, but a dick of honor.
And I swear to the evil gods if you don't stop these fucking retarded anime stupid special effects Wizard I'm going to murder you.
>>44365627
But in this case, the paladin would kill the (or at least attempt to) villain, just with his hands instead of a weapon. Even if he fails at that, the rest of the party will finish the job.
So it's not a case of not killing the villain, it's a case of killing them in a way they want to be killed in.
>>44365670
Smite. Evil.
>>44365249
where is this code of conduct written?
>>44365679
>it's a case of killing them in a way they want to be killed in.
Thats retarded, What if he wanted to be killed by a heart attack during sex with to extremely attractive women? Hes an evil fuck actively trying to fight you, kill him whatever way you are best at.
>>44365690
Smite. Good.
>Paladin's face when he has finally met his match
>>44365706
That's not a wish you can grant at that very moment and not a feasible one in any case. An unarmed duel is.
>>44365740
He never asked for a duel you mongoloid, he never made any requests.
>>44365679
Which has no standing in actual justice, because that is a kindness for a crime he is undoubtedly known to be guilty of.
Honestly, the question should be more "Is it more just to kill him on the spot as an agent of divinity or drag him over coals with a court trial, humiliating him and then publicly executing him?"
>>44365759
It's implied by his actions. But if he really doesn't want a duel, then there is no argument to be had.
>>44365775
All his actions imply is that he doesn't need his weapons or armour.
>>44363065
We settle it in smash
Duh
>>44365708
Lay On Hands.
>Blackguard's face when justice has finally come for him
Yeah we could flood the thread. It'd be an awesome fight at the end of a long campaign, though, regardless of the outcome.
>>44365791
Sure, but why doesn't he need them? Because he is strong enough to fight you without them, or because he knows he's going to lose whether he uses them or not?
>>44365802
As long as it's not forced suddenly or awkwardly shoehorned in for the sake of them having to fight because, it could be.
>>44365813
Or because he is a monk. Or a wizard.
>>44365831
Both of those are covered by "Strong enough to fight you without them", though.
>Playing a brawler with a military background
I tell the others to step back and ask the bard to play my favorite song, then ask the BBEG if he's certain that he wants to fight the champ as I strip down to a pair of shorts.
>>44365843
Generally you ere on the side of hes strong enough. If he wanted a one on one manly fight he would have asked for it.
>>44363167
>>44363272
Neither of those are anything to do with the paladin code. It's Christmas anon, a time for honesty
>>44365879
Or he expects you to take the hint.
>>44365843
Depends on the edition with monk desu
>>44363065
Not seeing the significance of the paladin here. Gary Gygax was fairly active on some forums later in life, and his immediate response to what was essentially 'paladin fall, wut do' was something like this: as envisioned, LG was all about Old Testament eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth justice. Not saying that's how everyone should see it, but it's a reasonable opinion on the matter by one of the founding fathers of D&D. If the warlord can still fight, he's clearly not unarmed, as he's using his body as a weapon. If he's not armed, then the paladin is dispensing justice.
I flex until my shirt rips, then I, Jebediah Mannerheim, Cast Fist.
>>44365893
Maybe you should delve into an edition of D&D where LG is actually a requirement for being a paladin.
>>44365895
He expects to much from too little information. Unless hes a fucking mute he can say something. Even if he wasnt he could at least point to someone or something. Didn't get this far throwing away my weapon to fight trained martial artists or magic users.
>>44365957
maybe you should learn what the fuck LG actually means.
>>44366003
It doesn't mean "Smite first, ask questions later", I can tell you that much.
>>44366027
It doesn't mean bending over and letting General Genocide fuck you in the ass while he razes a couple of towns either.
>>44366059
How is agreeing to a fistfight even close to that?
Do you have so little faith in your abilities (and your god) that you think the BBEG will overpower you, then the entire rest of the party?
>>44366079
You aren't even agreeing to a fist fight, you are assuming the man wants a fist fight when he said nothing. Hes probably a fucking wizards.
>>44366059
>It doesn't mean bending over and letting General Genocide fuck you in the ass
I'll have you know that General Genocide is happily married with three kids. He'd never think of cheating on his wife even in the heat of battle. You're thinking of Major Manslaughter.
In all seriousness though, if you're serving a god that has a thing for fair fights then you're more or less obligated as a Paladin to disarm and remove your breastplate as well to make the fight even.
>>44366102
I am assuming the man wants a fist fight because he assumed a fist fighting stance.
>>44366079
>>44366104
I'm not about to risk the fact he might be playing time or trying to pull some trick to indulge my own ego. I strike him down swiftly and decisively, within the full extent of mortal and divine law. He will get a proper burial, but I will not take a meaningless risk to entertain a mass murderer.
>>44363065
Paladin fights the BBEG unarmed like he did everybody else, smite evil with two fists is twice the smite in his eyes.
