Is she right, /tg/?
>>44356091
Not really. Demons are literally the spawn of Satan and beings of pure evil.
>>44356119
Done in one, son.
>>44356119
I agree. Next time don't be swayed this easy by a pretty face, OP.
>>44356119
In Christian mythology, maybe. But this is /tg/, a board based around fantastic realms that span the width and breadth of the imagination.Also, without knowing any further context, neither of them are right.
I need more context
>>44356119
This is from Maou Yuuya aka waifu economics and tits the anime
So the demons are closer to Japanese Yaokai and not really evil
>>44356119
But she's saying its evil to kill people. Aren't angels also evil for killing demons (and in rare cases non-hell spawned races)?
>>44356139
I'm pretty sure that the only reason any writer has to call something 'demons' is to make people immediately think they're evil.
>>44356091
It literally depends on the setting.
In DnD, Pathfinder, and many old-school RPGs, Demons are literally a natural manifestation of the universe's evil. They're personifications of concepts and alignments, some of which have no redeeming factors at all and arguably can't even be argued to be sentient creatures capable of making their own choices in regards to morality.
Then you have newer RPGs, anime, and games like Undertale where 'demons" are just used as a thing SJW allegory for people who are different from us and how humanity (and thus, you the player) are an awful person who should feel bad for thinking anything negative about them whether they actually deserve it or not.
>>44356152
But what if that's the point? To take a stereotype that's been perpetuated as tirelessly as demons and make something different from it? The only reason the term 'demon' is used at all is because it's easily identifiable due to how heavily ingrained in culture the concept has become up to this point.
Just because you think something is 'evil' doesn't mean that it's always the truth. There are also concepts such as propaganda and lies perpetuated simply because someone doesn't like something and wants to make everyone else hate it too.
As I said, without further context, there's no way to tell who is right.
>>44356091
Depends.
What are the rules for Demons in this setting. What is meant by "demons." Many anime and manga seem to use "demons" to mean just "magic people who are really no different from humans."
Do we mean "fantasy race" or "terrifying, otherworldly abominations from beyond space and time."
>>44356179
It's called a trope.
>The only reason the term 'demon' is used at all is because it's easily identifiable due to how heavily ingrained in culture the concept has become up to this point.
This is exactly why you use it. Your readers/players/consumers instantly know what's going on.
It's a tool, there's nothing wrong with using it.
Making the demons misunderstood is also a trope, one that I've seen way to often at this point, especially hanging around /tg/.
Is there a setting where demons encourage mortals to strike out on their own to change things, sometimes directly changing things and angels trying to keep the 'Natural Order' By manipulating mortals to keep the Natural Order regardless of their actions being Ethical or not
>>44356157
Undertale doesn't have demons, just monsters.
And they're all a bunch of weakling goobers that can be murdered by a single human child, should that child have the drive to do so.
Nice bait, though.
>>44356157
>Demons are literally a natural manifestation of the universe's evil.
How? Succubi/Incubi feed off of souls by sexing their victim. It's like shooting an animal and harvesting its meat. And then there are demons set on killing anything good-aligned.
>inb4 actual alignments
But then you have paladins who are set on killing anything evil-aligned. They are literally the same thing but on different sides.
>>44356220
>magic people who are really no different from humans
Isn't that elves?
>>44356220
In the manga their pretty much just another fantasy race but the humans think the demons are set on killing them. Even though it was the humans that started the "Holy Crusades".
>>44356235
Yes, because strength had anything to do with that argument. I love how fanboys start screaming "BAIT!" as soon as anyone dare speak out against their fetish of the month...
Anyway, yes, it literally depends on the setting. Kinda how it's OK to kill robots by the dozen in American cartoons, but ever killing an actual human is HARDCORE ZOMG DON'T LET THE KIDS SEE!
>>44356222
You're missing the point though. I'm not refuting the definition of the word, I'm saying that it's a title that can be improperly applied, whether purposefully or on accident. Without further context into the situation, we cannot know if this is the case or not. If the humans DID invade first, were they justified based on past transgressions, or was it unprovoked? If the demons invaded, did THEY have justifiable reasons to retaliate against the humans? There's not enough information to make an educated decision.
>>44356242
What do you mean 'how?'
They are Evil Elementals from the Elemental Planes of Evil.
In D&Dwhich is what he's talking about, before you go off on that,Evil is a measurable energy force. One that corrupts and destroys the Prime Material Plane (the world).
>>44356262
That's just nipples.
>>44356091
Of course she isn't. That guy's NAME is HERO. Hero means he's on the side of GOOD. And, even if she is - What's the point of listening to her? She's the Enemy.
I have a simple choice here: I can stab her and go home a hero. Or I can listen to her and betray everything I believe in, or simple end up feeling worse about myself.
All things considered, the best option is to kill her before she can talk or assume she's lying. Besides, since I'm a racist at heart, I fucking hate demons. I'll likely throw in a few slurs, tell her how I'm going to wipe out her entire race once I get back.
>>44356242
How? Because that's LITERALLY what the rules state them to be. Demons are a manifestation of Chaotic Evil and Devils are a manifestation of Lawful Evil.
>In b4 actual arguments
Again, this is what the RULES OF THE SETTING EXPLICITLY STATE.
I get that alignments are a flawed idea to begin with, and I get that it's cheap and easy writing with a ton of plotholes, but don't try argue word-of-god just so you can have your magical real succubus waifu and have everything be OK.
>>44356283
Smite and Cleave, Smite and Cleave...
>>44356231
Yes, its called my head setting. In my head setting, Angels and demons are at war because God vanished (no fedora) and his last order was to wait for his return. After a few million years some Angels got bored, or started proposing beliefs that God had merged quitissentially with the universe. Some willed themselves out of existence or tried to follow suit, becoming the lesser gods or spirits of mythology. Some decided they should strike out on their own and FINISB building the universe. Loyalists wanted to wait. It went hot when sapient life evolved, which was never a part of the plan. Angels didn't know wtf to do with them and wanted to just observe, Lucifer immediately started fucking with them. So civil war that rages to this day, sapiens caught in the middle, etc.
>>44356139
>a board based around fantastic realms that span the width and breadth of the imagination.
So long as that "imagination" gives you a stiffy, judging by all the retarded redeemed succubus and general waifufaggotry threads there are.
>>44356283
>Or I can listen to her and betray everything I believe in
>implying you aren't doing that already
>>44356245
Many fantasy anime and manga often use the terms "demon" and "monster" interchangeably. Elves are considered to be sub-categories of "monsters" in most of these settings.
>>44356179
The ebin "demons aren't truly evil, just misunderstood" subversion is just as cliche as actually evil demons at this point. You're like three centuries too late on that boat.
>>44356322
Well, yeah. To say that 'fantasy' shouldn't include (sometimes blatantly) sexual themesespecially for a bunch of basement-dwelling neckbeardsis kind of ignorant. Moderation should apply as in all cases, but it's a core part of the concept.
>>44356334
The real answer is:
> "Animals have no God. Do you commit murder when you wring a chicken's neck?"
Apart from that, I've always wondered how a villain would feel when he's throwing moral condurums and philosophy at the hero, and the hero just goes:
> "Huh, that's pretty crazy. I guess I'm just going to stab you now. OPEN WIDE HERE IT COMES."
Seriously, that must be pretty soul-crushing. You're being killed by someone who isn't willing to engage with you on any level.
>>44356335
Never heard of that.
In most settings, elves are considered to be a player 'race,' implying the ability to and often mechanically able to reproduce fertile children with humans.
>>44356355
>>44356353
I've wondered whether it's possible to make mean-spirited and depressing fantasy. You know, for the delicious feeling of schadenfreude when all hopes are eventually trampled underfoot.
Something simple from the start, like:
> "Sure, you're the hero from another world, but...I really, really would prefer not to have to put out for you. You know?"
>>44356314
>Angels and demons are at war because God vanished (no fedora) and his last order was to wait for his return. After a few million years some Angels got bored
I've already watched Supernatural, thank you very much.
>>44356386
Your fantasy waifu not wanting to have sex with you is "mean-spirited and depressing" to you? That's kind of pathetic, anon
>>44356360
Did that once. Fellow started moralizing, going on about how I was a knight and should help him because he was the lesser evil and trying to be a better man. I stabbed him in the gut and killed him.
Later I explained to another PC that I was poor and had long ago accepted that my morals were for sale. His life fed my family, and if that meant people got hurt? Well tough, that happens all the time. The world doesn't care for innocence or dreams, and a father of two certainly can't afford to either. I'd killed better people than him for less.
>>44356396
I haven't, which I guess is why I consider it my head canon. I stole my idea from DC comics anyway
>>44356408
No, no, that's not what I actually meant. I only brought it up because someone mentioned sex. Clearly, I need to think about tihs a lot more.
>>44356360
How about "Ugh, it speaks. Stop talking, it makes me nauseous when an animal tries to speak Common."
>>44356420
If you want a more mean-spirited and depressing fantasy, look no further than something like Dark Souls. Make things seem hopeless. No one trusts anyone, and everything is fucked. The PCs will try to fix it and partially succeed, but the ending will always be bittersweet. The problem with soul-crushing fantasy though is that if you make it too soul crushing, no one will want to play anymore.
Don't forget, in the end tabletops are about__fun_.
RIP AND TEAR
>>44356443
Gesellschaft Blume sounds about that guy's speed.
Nope. If it isn't human and it fights against human, it's evil. I say that as a human.
>>44356459
/thread
>>44356360
It kinda feels like that as a GM sometimes... the soul-crushing non-engagement part, I mean.
>>44356430
You sound like a badguy, you should probably be put down for the greater good.
>>44356242
>It's like shooting an animal and harvesting its meat.
No, it's like shooting an animal that exclusively preys on humans, which should be 100% ok to anyone with a single shed of common sense.
>>44356516
I agree with this notion.
>>44356496
Even when the thing he's slaying is a peasant gobbling and slave owning chimera with a god complex?
Or an avatar of undeath that spreads zombie plague simply through physican contact and simply considers his undead morals to be above those of the living?
It's just like OP's situation, it's a quote taken completely out of context and you can't decide on its moral standing purely by that one snippet alone.
>>44356548
Yep.
>>44356496
See, that's what it ultimately boils down to. Are you stronger than me? Because if you are, you can make up whatever story you like.
This is different, of course, in a setting with objective morality. If one side summons angels and the other has horrible demons and black magic, one side is objectively good. It's not uncommon for there to be actual Good Gods and Evil Gods.
>>44356143
Wait, you mean to tell me other things than tits and magical convenient mcguffins happen in the manga?
>>44356091
>>44356151
>>44356235
>>44356242
>>44356334
>>44356496
The highschool is strong with this one.
>>44356612
this seems like an unsubstantiated and pointlessly condescending remark, family, comparable to me calling you a sophomoric goatfucker
>>44356605
Potato magic and world ending muskets that can kill something that has no issue with cleaving mountains in half. Marmalade is a hack.
>>44356622
He has a point, though. On /tg/, most people are desperately fucking thirsty, and that's what drives their sense of morality. Like the obsession with succubi.
If you're a jock Paladin and you look like a statue of the Aryan race, you're probably having a lot of sex. Consensual sex, too! You'll be less inclined to think with your dick, because you're regularly using it.
>>44356622
Behold, the most totally-not-highschool-you-guys comeback ever.
>This thread
it's sad how people want to have redeemable villains now, you can thank naruto and other shit-tier animu for this
>>44356624
So to keep it short ; Its shit?
>>44356634
The HFY fucks in this thread are made of concentrated edge and no better. Gonna make sure I make every single paladin I meet fall from now onwards.
>>44356663
If it wasn't for the Akira Ishida art I wouldn't be bothering with it.
>>44356634
"Thirstiness" is not the binding thread between the posts he responded to, though. He's deriding the moral relativity present to each of those anon's posts.
>>44356640
>you guys are so highschool heh
>i think you should back that up, as it's as pointless as me calling you [insult against your maturity]
>heh you're so highschool, take a look at this kid guys
>>44356656
Naruto is especially bad. Someone needs a poster of Sasuke with "NO MORE ENABLING" scrawled across it.
>>44356670
Shit mang, don't hate people because they're better than you.
>>44356656
Why do you think it's sad? Personally I'm into that sort of thing so I'm idly curious why you dislike it. Understanding differing perspectives, y'know.
>>44356682
>"Thirstiness" is not the binding thread between the posts he responded to, though. He's deriding the moral relativity present to each of those anon's posts.
What if the speaker looked like Diablo? Would you believe a single word he said?
>>44356683
>I must murderkill everything!
Yeah, that totes makes you a better person.
>>44356696
I would be somewhat mistrustful of him and judge what he has to say on its own merits and potential benefit to myself and those I care for. If he actually was a Satan-tier deceiver, he could just as easily take on the form of some amazingly beautiful angel to deceive me instead, which is a good reason as to why wonderful and sexy angels should also be mistrusted.
>>44356702
> Yeah, that totes makes you a better person.
Yes, because the things I'm killing are evil. Sometimes, this is objectively true: If the setting has objective morality, killing evil people is a Good act. The Gods would give me a big thumbs-up for each evildoer I heroically slay.
If morality is subjective, then the adulation of my society is what matters. And in that, I'm still a hero because they cheer me for what I do! Either I'm a great person (assuming objective morality), or the only people who believe me to be evil are those whose opinions literally don't matter. (assuming subjective morality and all viewpoints being equal.)
>>44356119
Satan was an angel though, so Demons should be all Devas or nephilim if they were his spawn.
>>44356720
Mate, following that train of logic you're going to get tricked no matter what because the bugger can switch shapes into anything and has experience with the whole trickster thing.
>>44356722
You're not exactly convincing me that you aren't a monster here.
>>44356091
It depends on the setting.
I don't get why so many people think it's a troll answer. With so few elements of context, it's often the only right aswer. In D&D, Evil and Good are objective forces, so demons are Evil and Paladins are Good. It may chang according on the game or setting.
>>44356748
I'm saying that I don't need to convince you. Even if you say I am, either God says I'm a great guy...Or the thousands chanting my name are the ones doing that. Pick your poison.
>>44356737
I'm going to get tricked because I mistrust him regardless of what form he might take? I'm not the kind of person that commits myself to moral or immoral behaviours, regardless. I'm not going to kill a man at his behest for a lot of money, for instance, or some similar generic devil's deal. If he threatens to kill my family or something similar if I don't do his bidding, then it becomes a matter of something strong asserting its will over the weak, not a party being tricked to do something by a party that makes use of deception to achieve its aims.
>>44356091
Morals are relative so they are both wrong.
As for ''demons''...
Depends on the setting.
If they are like the Chinese ones then they are just evil spirits with nothing other differentiating them from ordinary spirits than being evil.
If they are Arab ones (Djin) then they are full chaotic neutral and spirits of nature.
Really only the three Abrahamic religions paint all ''spirits'' evil because some priests in Israel didn't like the idea of loosing their obedient worsheepers to things like ancestral worship or worship of nature (can't pay for all those slaves if you don't get money from enough worshipers).
Even in Europe (particular in eastern Europe) they kept their connection to their origins as spiritual beings.
Kinda like Dragons in Slavic myths where they were trial masters who gifted magic to the worthy and then the church made Dragons=Satan, Thunder God=St. Illiah and people continued to view Satan(Shape-shifting Dragon) as an impartial neutral being who would reward the just who passed his trials and punish the wicked.
>>44356222
and its just as much of a use of a tool to trick someone as it is to play it straight.
>>44356235
>>he thinks the child is a normal human
a small human child would not be able to go on a murder adventure like that even if all the enemies where as weak as you are insisting. it takes concentration, endurance, courage, and intelligence, to do anything the protagonist has to do. A child litterally cannot do it, so fisk is not a normal child and is capable of superhuman feats.
>>44356091
There is evil in evil and what you prefer. It all gets straightforward with the existence of things like negative and positive energies.
>>44356091
She is definitelyhot
>>44356091
Nobody thinks they are the bad guy and will go incredible long lenghts to justify dick moves.
Doesnt mean they arent a bad person
Why do people constantly translate youkai into demon?
>>44356157
>In DnD, Pathfinder
>no redeeming factors
Don't both of these have redeemed demons?
>>44356091
>He
That said, at least in the Maoyuu universe demons are far from evil. How could you call a cute, affectionate, soft-looking and cuddly waifu evil when all she wants to do is help you grow crops and end starvation?
She pretty much brings the Enlightenment three centuries early with a lot less bloodshed. I'd consider that a Christmas miracle.
>>44356231
>>44356314
The actual story is more like god, omniscient and omnipotent., had a buncha remote controlled robots he controlled trough his mind. God decided to create sentient life other than him and as he did he doubted himself. Now that may seem like a small thing at first but god is a such a vast and powerful being, doubty would be such a terrible event.
So there god was maybe wondering if making more sentient people are a good thing and BAM, personality split. One side of god really doesnt want this to happen and realizes the only way to stop himself is trough war. So he goes to grab his possible angels and starts a sickass war against himself.
Now OG god wins and is kinda troubled by this, he cant really lock himself away so what he does is create a massive warehouse for the war machines aka angels to be put in.
And then the rest of the bible happens.
>>44357037
Japs are pretty fucking ignorant.
They just dont give a fuck to properly translate the dnd fantasy they picked up.
>>44357037
Can you think of a better translation? Youkai = Demon makes sense, as in medieval legends demons are often considered to be lesser evil or mischievous spirits. If I'm not mistaken, the term Japanese Christians use for Satan is even Maou.
That changes the show a lot, huh? It's literally about Satan coming to earth, seducing a hapless young man and reforming the entire agricultural and political system in order to sow more discord, all while disguising herself as a cuddly scholar who wouldn't hurt a fly.
>>44357060
>demons
let us not forget that japanese words like "yokai" often translate to "demon" even though it is really not the same thing.
>>44357105
Donkey Kong
![ss_(2015-06-18_at_09.37.21)[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Dsx7ueR.jpg "ss_(2015-06-18_at_09.37.21)[1].jpg")
>>44357159
True that. Some youkai are just mischievous pranksters, others literally waifu material.
>>44357186
Fluffy is love.
![78f[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/aYJVRPG.jpg "78f[1].jpg")
>>44357203
I would totally a fluffy tail. I would a fluffy tail every night and every day.
>>44356139
>without knowing any further context
If it's the same conversation as it was in the anime, she's not actually debating ethics here but just trying to get him to stop screaming Evil so he'll listen to her proposal about ending the war without one side genociding the other.
Source is Maoyu.
>>44357037
In a perfect world Youkai would be just as acceptable as Elf, Fairy or Dwarf.
But when we are calling a Loong a Chinese Dragon, because of vague allusions between the two you start to realise this isn't a perfect world.
>>44356895
Top waifu.
>>44356091
This would've been comfy enough if it weren't for the fucking muskets
>>44356624
>>44357551
It's been a while since I followed Maou Yuuya, what's all this about muskets?
>>44357571
To explain it simply.got this from net. No bully
>>44357551
Hey, no muskets, no Enlightenment.
>>44357571
They have muskets now. Demon King was building prototypes in secret, at a guess for the Southern Confederation to use as a deterrent against the Central Kingdom, but they were stolen by the Central Kingdom and it's all "We arms race now."
>>44357628
>no Enlightenment.
Expand on this. Since I dropped this shit.
Couldn't they just make more powerful potatoes to fuck over the economy or someshit
>>44357611
SAIYAN GODS CAN'T TANK LASER BEAMS
>>44356119
A true son of god we have here.
>>44357644
The problem with fucking the economy is that it fucks up the Southern Kingdoms as well since they're not completely self-sufficient yet as well as removing potential trade partners. The Demon world suffers by proxy since fighting the Humans would then offer no real benefit.
>>44357702
And making serfs waste time by marching and using muskets improves their situation how?
>>44356091
Demons are just gods and spirits worshiped by people who's religion you oppose.
>>44356269
>I'm saying that it's a title that can be improperly applied
It's not a title.
You are literally refuting the definition of the word.
>>44357726
It's essentially the difference between political idealism and realpolitik in the setting. The Central Kingdom seeks to exert control over the others through the principles of faith (idealism) but as the dependency of the Southern Kingdoms decreases, the economy of the Central Kingdom suffers as a result of a failure to modernise along side them (realpolitik). The fact they send over a hundred thousand serfs who are needed to tend crops and such is the result of arrogance born of this idealism since they're stuck in the "Grand and Holy Crusade, None may question us" mentality.
>>44357818
>realpolitik
So this is like the deal with gundam series?
>>44357838
Not quite sure what you mean.
>>44357950
accidentally the greentext. What I meant was in gundam pompous earth people shit on space guys even though they need them. Then space guys wants to separate from earth.
>>44356143
>>44357037
>>44357133
>>44357186
>>44357375
You're all faggots because the demon species in that series is not Youkai (妖怪), but Mazoku (魔族).
>she's hot therefore she's not evil
Devil's advocate are the ultimate that guy.
>>44358157
>she's hot therefore she's not evil
Anon you should know this is how most of /tg/ thinks.
>>44358125
The Earth guys 'shit on' the space guys because the space guys started an apocalyptic war. Their very first act was to drop a continent-sized landmass on Australia, killing millions. They sent a five-minute warning, just to REALLY kick them in the balls, too.
After *that*, with the space guys now having a firmly-established reputation for treachery and sucker punches, the war broke out.
>>44358198There are actually people in Aus?
,damn.
![maoyuu-maou-yuusha-01-0[1].jpg_resize=523%2C293.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/3BLJwqK.jpg "maoyuu-maou-yuusha-01-0[1].jpg_resize=523%2C293.jpg")
>>44357628
>Demon King was building prototypes in secret
Wow what a hypocritical slut
>>44358198
AFTER decades of oppression by the Earth-Gov. Not excusing the drop, the Zabi's were pretty much Hitler: The Family Unit, but Earth Gov are hardly the heroes. Especially since they GO RIGHT BACK FUCKING TO IT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WAR. Oh, after they put Amuro Ray under house arrest, of course.
>>44358270
Gee, I wonder why they went back to it after the war? Maybe the apocalyptic war soured them on dealing with the space guys, because we've established that the space guys are fucking shit?
Also, there were constant Zeon insurgencies that just lead to more ill-will. Hey, how about the second and third Neo-Zeon War? And more colonies falling out of the skies? Even in the real world, we only let Germany get away with starting TWO World Wars.
![b1525e01e056565ac34a03d513abc26e-d2hmv07[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/zhqBO37.jpg "b1525e01e056565ac34a03d513abc26e-d2hmv07[1].jpg")
>>44358293
Gravity shitter whose soul is stuck in earths rotational orbit detected
CHAR AZNABLE DID NOTHING WRONG
REMOVE EARTHNOID
>>44356722
That's a gross oversimplification of the differences between various moral philosophies though.
You can have objective morality settings that don't make killing evil people a good act.
For instance, a setting that runs on utilitarian ethics might have a character who genuinely wants terrible suffering for everyone, but is so incompetent at it that they actually make people happy instead. Killing such an individual would be wrong, despite their evil personality.
Kantian Ethics (another objective system) could also provide for mercy. If everyone killed people they thought were evil, they'd make mistakes, and thus do evil acts. Furthermore, a society where murder was acceptable simply because of a suspected evilness would likely engender more evil, thus making the "kill evil doers" principle non universalize-able.
As far as relative systems, you could have a social contract morality, and there killing a demon who wants to join your social contract, but currently isn't in it, would be wrong, at least without consideration.
>>44356091
Killing enemy in war is evil if you don't have a just cause for war.
Even more evil is to treat non-combatants as enemy.
>>44358125
In a sense, though I confess I've yet to pick up Gundam myself so I may be missing some context.
Realpolitik refers primarily to political pragmatism (though that can and often does extend to the less palatable aspects of politics) so it works both ways. Let's take the French Revolution as an example, ir rather, one of the large events leading up to it.
Lots of public anger towards nobles so Louis XVI calls the Estates General to sort shit out. First and Second Estates are the wealthy and powerful/influential clergy and aristocracy respectively. Third Estate is made up of the middle class. Doctors, lawyers, professionals, etc. Not the richest but by no means poor yet they keep getting shit on by the nobility in terms of taxation and privileges. One advantage they have is thst they are far more numerous than the First and Second Estates so they can outvote them, however, the Estates are called to vote by order, i.e. each Estate has one vote so the nobles and clergy can outvote the Third Estate and reinforce their privileges.
Note that this just the VERY summarised version and I'm leaving a shit tonne out but that's another example of realpolitik.
>>44356220
>Many anime and manga seem to use "demons" to mean just "magic people who are really no different from humans."
That's a translation issue, mostly. Yokai, Bakemono, Oni, and Kami usually get translated to demon, monster, ogre/goblin, and god/spirit respectively, with the first two sometimes used interchangeably in English.
Problem is, the Japanese terms are nuanced. The term yokai does not necessarily imply that something is evil, only that it's strange and dangerous, which often means it becomes conflated with evil. There are plenty of yokai in stories who may well be nicer than most people you meet; the problem is that they're weird, scary, and alien. What's nice by yokai standards might be completely bonkers by human ones, and vice versa.
Bakemono always carries a strong connotation of corruption and Wrongness (which in western terms are often synonymous with evil), but it's not an exclusive term; sufficiently twisted, both humans and yokai can become bakemono.
Oni as ogre reliably conveys their size, strength, and rowdiness, but it leaves out their central theme of service and loyalty.
Kami translated as God means something entirely different to a western audience than it does translated as Spirit, even though the same concept is being represented. On top of that, while the word God carries a strong association with morality and the assumption that a deity will be either good or evil, the term Kami has absolutely no moral association: there's good kami, evil kami, neutral kami, apathetic kami, kami who just want to be left alone, corrupting kami (a quality also divorced from good/evil, though not a good thing in any case), selfish kami, nonsapient kami, and many more besides. When a western audience thinks of Gods in plural, they usually liken it to a pantheon of higher beings. In Shinto, just because something is a kami doesn't necessarily mean they're above anything. It's more like a career field.
>>44357186
Tamamo was an evil Kitsune by any stretch of the word.
>>44356091
Nope.
Victor chooses whos the bad guy.
>>44356670
Honestly, you pull that shit and yer gonna run out of people to play with pretty fast.Better to subtly fuck with them, turn them Anti-Paladin without telling them and then have them be really confused when nothing they try in combat works
>>44356682
To be fair, you did include ''goatfucker''. Thats pretty immature.
Not that I wouldn't myself but don't do it and then try to take the intellectual/maturity high ground
>>44356694
Im guessing its that whole ''I want my villains evil so I can stop faffing about with whos the real villain and being made to feel like shit for doing what everything else has trained me to do and just kill the cunt'' mindset.
Personally, I like redeemable villains sometimes but then again I sorta like a wide variety of villains. I especially like utterly unreasonable, unswayable villains. You can argue with them, you can try to sway them, but ultimately they're just gonna smack ya about.
>>44356119
Thread ended here, dunno what you fags are still arguing about.
>>44356139
Maoyuu demons are basically yokai and aren't necessarily evil.
>>44357334
Now that flesh is neither ugly or useless. Damn.
>>44356157
That manga is literally about how we need to stop making war and get to making commerce/knowledge/tit monster demon waifu.
>>44358249
What, while trying to make peace with humans? We're assholes, of course she assumed it was going to fuck up.
>>44358882
Well, see, theres a few issues with that viewpoint. Such as ''In no setting are they the actual spawn of Satan but rather sometimes the other fallen angels or a manifestation of raw evil''
Like, even in Christianity, Demons are the dudes that followed Lucifer/Satan and thus were cast out of heaven as well.
In Buddhism, the nearest similar thing are people whom were so bestial and warlike in a past life as to have been permanently reincarnated in a form befitting such.
Theres also the fact that the term she uses in Japanese doesn't really mean ''Demon'' as we'd understand it from an English speaking perspective.
Long story short, you're viewing this too simplistically. Do so if ya wish but then you might as well just stay out of the thread dude.
>>44358871
Nah, it's more like...Every villain nowadays has a sob story. You're supposed to sympathize with them, even when it's usually bullshit. I mean, let's say the villain wants to destroy the planet because daddy issues/Oedipus complex. Am I really supposed to take that seriously?
Or, say - the villain wants to turn everyone undead, because his little sister died and now he doesn't want anyone to die, ever, even though it would make the planet a necromantic nightmare. He's clearly batshit, and that's not sympathetic at all! It's even worse when I'm supposed to go "Ooohhhh, he has a point!"
He doesn't have a point. He's fucking crazy.
>>44358882
Muh subjective morrality sempai.
Murder and sociopathic greed is unfair to call evil stop opressing my freedom.
>>44358249
Hey, sometimes making a peaceful world is easier when certain people have been shot to death.
>>44358916
Oh yeah, I dont like that shit either really. Like Gendo in NGE.
But what I do like are the dudes whom are psychotic and evil but you always get that feeling that maybe they could be swayed. That maybe its not them really in control and maybe you could turn them against their master. Indoctrinated villains are something Im fond of using for my mini-bosses.
My BBEG is usually something like The Major or Frank N. Furter though. Or Riff Raff if Im feeling like throwing in a plot twist.
>>44358931
Ain't gonna be no more war if everyone is too dead to start wars
>>44356584
What if the angels are also evil, as it happens in many settings...
>>44358931
No, voilence beggets voilence.
It just means the enemy will pick up their own arkebuses.
>>44358933
Yeah, but a lot of the time, I don't REALLY want to sway them, you see? Like, there might be a spark of goodness hidden deep down beneath all that atrocity, but why should I care?
I assume even horrible dictators were nice to their family and their kids. They might even have donated to charity. But that doesn't excuse what he's done. I don't want the story to end with them living happily ever after, I want it to end with their head on a spike.
This is why I play Paladins as the furious Sword of God. I don't play them as a the second coming of Jesus. If a DM wants me to play like that, I'll just play a knightly Fighter instead so I can mete out punishment.
>>44358946
Then the people languish in Grimdarkness eternally. Probably.
But that then implies that summoning an angel is less about being good or not and more about having divine favour. Which probably means those dudes will win and thus get to decide who was right.
>>44356722
>look at me I have the moral and emotional depth of OP's dick length
>>44358946
Then I'll pick the angels anyway. If both sides are evil, I'll pick the side that's not obviously evil. What do you want to do? Form a third faction? Fight everyone? How much Gundam Seed have you been watching?
>>44358967
He could always wring his hands and angst after killing someone. You know, just like in my Chinese cartoons. I've heard that's a great way to be morally complex and deep.
>>44358955
Oh yeah, of course. I ain't saying that the dude should be swayed. I mean shit dude, you deal with the BBEG or his lieutenants however you want.
As the DM, its my job to cover as many bases as I can to make an interesting world and adventure and then facilitate in world actions for the groups enjoyment. If you want to smite and cleave, and the group is cool with that, then go for it.
I just always liked redeemed villains as allies. They have certain knowledge etc and they can make the ultimate bbeg easier to beat but you dont need them really.
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/R64JlEY.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
>>44356360
I won't spoil it, but you should definitely watch Samurai Flamenco. It may, or may not, have what you're looking for, but you'll have to sit through it a bit. It has a slow beginning.
Like in all anime and manga, it's just pointless dialog that drones on so long the original point is obscured until you agree with the villain due to mental numbness
>>44358980
Honestly, the beginning was the best part. I mean, the overall thing wasthe protagonist was a reality-warper, and this was all linked to his desire to be a hero.
The show just went batshit after a certain point, but the sentai arc was especially poorly animated.
>>44358891
Head Maid was completely lesbian for the Demon King
>>44358931
I thought the muskets were to help make sure the southerners didn't get rapefucked into oblivion.
>>44358284
>Wow hitler is such a dick
>I know, lets nuke the entirty of italy, that'll justify our mental booboos.
>>44358990
The main problem is that they always end up agreeing with it. Just once, I want to see the hero shrug and go "Naw, mang. Naw. You're going in the ground, and that's the end of it. You're fucked."
>>44358977
He could, you know, not kill innocent beings? Or actually fight for the morals he pretends to espouse instead of going "muh popularity, look at me I am a jock" (his words)
So yeaaah sod off lad.
>>44359018
One Punch Man may be a good show for you then. The dude has, several times, gone ''Nah, fuck that, you going down bitch''
Plus theres some great comedy and fight scenes.
I'll stop shilling now.
>>44359025
I thought the point was that he wasn't killing innocent beings, but people who were marked as evil. Is this a "I'm not a terrorist, I'm a *freedom fighter* thing?"
>>44359027
No one really tries to convince him they are good though, and when the Gorilla cooperated he let him live.
Hammerhead too.
And the evo guy too.
Hammerhead got a real job, Gorilla ans Evo guy went to live together and are seen cooking. In the anime at least, don't recall in the manga and pretty sure not shown in the webcomic.
>>44359025
I dont think he was ever talking about killing innocents. He kinda specified ''evil'' a few times, usually that means ''has murderfucked a lot of people'' or ''will soon murderfuck a lot of people'', at least in systems with Objective alignments.
Ultimately, even evil characters that resist the urge or whatever represent an unjustifiable risk. If your setting doesnt do objective morality then its literally a question of what you value more. If your setting does do Objective Morality, theres a right side and a wrong side of every conflict.
>>44359043
He is saying it doesn't matter if they are evil or not as long as the population he belongs to thinks they are evil.
>>44359053
No, two objectively good sides can come into conflict.
>>44359045
Its been a while since my tear through the webcomic but Im pretty sure when, at one point, some dude tries to explain that wiping out moft of humanity is for the best since it'll stop wars he just tells them to fuck off.
The rest of the time... I mean, hes a hero because its his hobby really. If shit ain't really threatening him and hes gotten bored, he'll probably let them go.
>>44359062
Well yeah but then you're into Divine Wars so realistically you then have a duty to kill them.
Like if 2 objectively good nations go to war either theres someone manipulating shit or its end times shit usually.
What you will get is neutral nations and sides engaging in conflict. That happens plenty of times.
So I guess I was wrong. Theres 3 sides. The Good, the Bad, the Neutral.
At least in DnD and thats what I know best.
>>44359066
True enough.
He doesn't really seem to give a fuck though. I mean he came back from the moon and threw Garou into orbit, and yet he still runs reaaally slowly to fight the villains?
>>44359099
It depends on 2 things.
1) Whether hes motivated enough to give a fuck at the time (his primary arc revolves around trying to regain his motivation, will to fight etc)
2) The relevant power of and threat posed by the villain. Saitama is basically ''plot defined''. He is as fast as he needs to be for the plot, as durable as the enemy is strong and hes always got the strongest punch in any given fight.
>>44359089
And yet what that anon said is basically throw morala through the window just kill everything in the out-group to be sure because fuck that I am gonna be seen aa the good guy either way.
And that is the specific opposite of any kind of good values, to be quite honest.
More like a paragon of dickbaggery than a paragon of virtue.
>>44359126
You know, you can be good, in the right, and still be a douchebag. They're not mutually exclusive. You can be 100% doing the right thing, and still be an asshole about it.
It's like if you confronted a terrorist about to butcher hundreds of innocent people, wrested his own weapon away from him, and shot him dead. Then when the police went:
> "Holy shit, that was amazing! How did you find the balls to do it?"
And your answer was:
> "No reason. I just hate dem dirty Mooslems, come here to rape our women and take our jerbs."
It's an asshole reason, but you just saved hundreds of people.
>>44359126
If the morality of the setting is Subjective, hes right. Like the intent could be sufficient to designate him as good. I mean, what counts as good values differs from setting to setting and, irl, group to group.
Whats ''Good'' in DnD isn't whats ''Good'' in Star Wars.
Im pretty sure there are some settings whereby if enough people call you good and believe strongly enough in you you can become a god or demigod of Good and, thus, your actions become Good retroactively.
>>44359159
True enough. But it's also an easy way tk start doing evil shit and defending yoi are totally in the right because of the warped reasoning.
>>44359018
>>44358980
COUGH COUGH MAYBE OR MAYBE NOT, IT'S HARD TO TELL COUGH
>>44359173
But the whole point is that he's in the right.
>>44359162
Sure, but rarely is 'kill everything' good unless you are a space marine. In which case literally everything you point your gun is guilty of warcrimes.
That rock? Tripped five guardsmem and let them be eaten by nids. PURGE it, for the Emperor!
>>44359182
And now we're arguing Machiavellian shit. Is the Intent or the Result what matters? If I try to save someone from falling off a tall building but end up pushing them over, or even just failing to save them, is that still heroic? What is the sound of 1 hand clapping?
>>44359182
No, dude. Believing you yourself are in the right does not make you right neither in objective nor subjective reasonings.
He could, as you said, hate dem mooslems and save hundreds of people.
But next you know he steals a fighter jet and drops it in the middle of the red crescent or the kaaba or whatever.
Demon King has huge boobs and is cute.
>>44359200
Result, obviously. If you're a really nice guy but you started WWII, people are going to hate your fucking guts. To bother Godwin, let's say you saved a struggling artist who nearly drowned. That's a good act.
That artist turns out to be Adolf Hitler, and he later states "If not for the man who saved me, the Third Reich might never have come to pass. Truly, he was a hero of the Aryan race to come." OH SHIT is what I'm saying.
>>44359062
>>44359089
Objective good in D&D or whatever doesn't require divine forces, its just a descriptor, that, known or unknown to the individuals involved, xyz is good.
And nothing stops good factions from fighting good factions. Two governments may both have an order of loyal paladins sworn to serve their liege (respect legitimate authority, keep your word, etc. etc.). Two nations may be competing for resources or territory and the loyal and honorable soldiers of both may be called up to slay one another. And so forth.
There generally isn't enough to go around
>>44359198
True enough. But there is still a fine line between ''kill everything'' and ''kill everything that might be evil to protect the peasants''. And only one of those will earn you enduring praise and worship.
It kinda depends on how you define the boundaries I guess. Ive seen shit happen where people wanted to kill every Outsider because they couldn't be trusted but it ended up saving the world so everyone lauded them as good when they were basically just ultra powerful racists.
>>44359207
Well yes, a good character could suddenly do something evil. That has fuck all to do with anything.
>>44359227
Oh, and we have rules of war and so forth precisely to encourage conflict to be about speedy resolutions and not about just plain slaughter that goes on forever.
Battle isn't capital punishment. You're not killing the enemy because he's a bad man. You're killing the enemy because he's an active threat and vice versa.
>>44359234
See? Exactly! In that case, killing all the Outsiders was the right thing to do.
I vaguely recall a manga where a bullied girl turned out to basically be Satan. If you think about it, you realize "Hey wait, her classmates were RIGHT to bully her. In fact, they should have killed her! If they had, half the world wouldn't have been destroyed. If anything, they were too gentle with her."
>>44359227
Well yeah but usually in order for them to both be ''Good'' they need to be willing to compromise. A truly good person won't kill a dehydrated dude thats trying to drink from an oasis just because the oasis might run out and leave him without water. Instead they'll tell the dude to slow their roll. And if the other dude is truly good, they'll agree so that both can continue to survive.
>>44359226
Personally, Id be inclined to agree but there is the fact that a lot of ''good'' results negatively affect others. Like... say if my character manages to kill a bunch of mercenaries in order to save the king of a good nation. Thats a good act, right? But then there is also the fact that I may have made a lot of people suddenly poor and orphans and shit.
Either you need a way to limit it, and thereby define the limits of your responsibility, or intent needs to be taken into account. Or you start weighing value in lives and property and shit but thats tedious as all hell and no ones gonna do that in the middle of a game.
>>44359284
Yeah but just as easily they probably killed every Good Aligned Outsider sent to right a wrong.
Like it turned out a good result but probably also churned out an assload of bad results prior to that. Like he saved the world but he might have stopped Outsiders resolving like 3 religious wars, stopping a bunch of raids and healing an assload of people.
Is there such a thing as ''Good but didn't try hard enough''?
>>44359314
> Is there such a thing as ''Good but didn't try hard enough''?
Not really. Sure, it's not the best ending, but it's good enough. And 'good enough' is more than most people get.
>>44359333
I suppose. It is sorta the difference between a good knight and a paladin though.
Whats the phrase again? ''That perfection is impossible is no reason not to strive for it'' or something. Always liked that sort of hero.
Also always liked the ''Do the best ya can with the tools you can'' hero too though so its all good I guess.
>>44359289
>A truly good person won't kill a dehydrated dude thats trying to drink from an oasis just because the oasis might run out and leave him without wate
We're not talking about individuals, we're talking about wars. Ultimately, paladins and other devoted lawful good types who are dedicated to honorable service to their lord or to their nation are bound to, well, honorable service.
They're likely to honor surrenders, but then again, pride and bravery may result in them fighting on until ordered otherwise by their lord.
Lets amend it to, two good people are unlikely to kill each other, aside from dire levels of confusion, miscommunication, or misidentification, or prior obligations. Its entirely possible and likely for good people to die on both sides in a war and has happened countless times.
>>44359386
See, thats where I think the definition of ''good'' sorta falls down. I can see a good and a neutral power coming into conflict. Good and evil too. Good and good? Seems unlikely.
But then ya gotta take into account that, for the most part, no Nation is good. They try to do the best for their people but thats the extent of it. They're generally Neutral.
Come to think of it, Id struggle to come up with a Nation that was truly Good, from an objective standpoint, in History or Fantasy.
>>44359386
Paladins should not be beholden to secular, and therefore immently corruptable authorities.
Furthermore, Lawful Good vassals of warmongering regimes should be working to change those regimes from the inside, otherwise they are Lawful Neutral tools.
>>44359427
In D&D, its absolutely effortless to come up with a good nation, just look at the alignment descriptions and go with it. Its not at all hard for a nation to be primarily Lawful Good, or at least ruled, enforced, and protected by LG people and with LG ideals. There's this weird and totally unfounded nihilistic meme that Lawful Good requires you to be a perfect saint.
That's... never been true and never will be true. Lets check out the 3e description of LG, since 3e's definitions are reasonably popular.
>1.“Good” implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Very easy so far.
>2. Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
This is more taxing, but not some kind of mystical improbability.
In all of the above, there is nothing about not killing good people, if you have to, or only killing evil. There is putting value on life, showing compassion, etc., though.
Using RL morality, it depends on... the school of moral thought you abide by, of course.
I will however point out the "keeps her word" part. If a Lawful Good person says they're going to do something, they're probably going to do it. While I'm not going to claim any particular government is good, WW1 definitely shows that countries keeping their word isn't always a great idea.
>>44359454
Great opinion, if a bit on the absolutist scale and thus likely to fall apart on its own weight. Respect legitimate authority does not mean "respect authority when you find it convenient." More importantly, LG is the alignment for doing good as per how good people are expected or required to act. They may be conscripted (guess what, legitimate authority doesn't mean nice authority), they may volunteer, they may be intrinsically pledged as part of their training and sponsoring, who knows.
>should be working to change those regimes from the inside
Its pretty easy to imagine many a nation in which soldiers and such are sworn to serve without injecting their political viewpoints everywhere, then that's what they do.
The "paladins being a hive mind" idea needs to go in the trash.
>>44359538
Fair point I suppose. I would imagine, though, that attempting to fulfill ones lawful obligations as a leader of a country and remaining truly altruistic would be a serious balancing act.
But taking this as the case, and taking 2 countries as such, would they really ever end up in a true conflict? Sounds to me like they might have mistaken border skirmishes but resolve it. Even in the case of trying to secure necessary resources, it sounds like they'd be more inclined to avoid attacking a definably good nation, ya know? What with being cut from a similar cloth and all.
>>44359584
Does it really? Some literal Hive Mind paladins of an insect God could be interesting. And if the Paladins literally derive power from their deity, is it so hard to believe the deity might direct them now and then?
I do like the idea that it just interhects now and then though. Like most of the time the Paladin is a questing knight for his Gods ideals but then when major shit happens he gets a message to drop the bullshit and get solving something.
>>44356091
Why does the Demon King look so striking in this image when I normally just remember her as the soft-bodied cutie from the anime?
Does she always look like this in the manga?
>>44359632
The anime had a shirt art style.
>>44359586
>But taking this as the case, and taking 2 countries as such, would they really ever end up in a true conflict?
Hopefully not. But then again, see WW1. And that wasn't even about resources, that was just the issue of honoring alliances fucking you up.
That being said, your general jist is overall very correct in that its more common (and genre appropriate) for one regime to be neutral at best, or for neither to be good. As mentioned prior, its perfectly plausible and not uncommon for LG warrior societies to wind up serving iffy lieges.
I'm inclined to think fatalities between good factions would probably be mainly a matter of duels and ritual combat rather than all out war, when irreconcilable differences arise. Its likely quarter would be offered, but then again plenty of honorable types will gladly die for what they believe in.
I focus on LG because its vague as fuck what the laws and traditions of societies that don't care about laws and traditions would be like.
>>44359610
>Some literal Hive Mind paladins of an insect God could be interesting.
That's fine as an intentional subversion, but not the idea that all paladins must be completely divorced from their inspiration and be reduced to automata.
>is it so hard to believe the deity might direct them now and then?
Depending on the edition and the style of the campaign, no, but that's more of a campaign plot unto itself.
>>44357571
The Hero got shot out of the sky by barely funcrional muskets because the sheer concept of "gun" overwhelmed him. Marmalade is a hack.
>>44359705
What? Can't the Hero walk off getting smacked around by giant demons and such, I doubt early prototype muskets have anywhere near that much force behind them.
A honest to goodness muskeboo, who'd have thought it.
>>44359632
Akira ishida.
>>44359674
Yeah, WW1 is a good example alright. Hard to be good and honour your alliances sometimes.
Yeah, I could see a lot of battles between LG forces boiling down to Champion combat. 1 or 2 dudes fighting to decide the fate of nations. Could be a cool thing for a session actually.
>>44359699
Gonna agree on the first part, disagree on the second part slightly. Personally, I do like the idea of using other paladins of the same deity (if applicable of course) as an enforcer in case the PC starts to get shitty or something. Like if the dude decides to start murdering peasants for no other reason than ''LoL you cant make me fall in this edition'', I like the idea of pulling out pocket paladins just to fuck him over or smack him down so the rest of the party dont have to get involved and that does imply deific guidance.
>>44359674
All societies care about them, though. Even the most fractured system of tribes will have some inviolable codes and beliefs. Even if they seem from the outside to be acting in unpredicable ways, the observer might just not have enough information to predict them with.
Even 'I'm da biggest and da strongest, do wat I say' counts. If someone kicks the warboss' ass, that's the new unquestioned leader.
>>44359713
Might have something to do with the belief that heroes don't have a place in a world with firearms.
>>44359284
Sounds like Elfin Lied which was the biggest crock of horseshit. Tried to make you feel bad for the MC because everyone hurt her despite the fact that she's a murderous demon
>>44359737
Yeah, but its a mistake to view tribalistic or primitive societies as necessarily being more lax on laws and traditions, though I guess its a matter of opinion whether they count as laws.
That's why I don't really bother talking about nonlawful societies, they'd seem more idiosyncratic.
>>44359747
I think the point there was ''Nature vs Nurture''. She always had the potential to be a murderous psychopath but she didn't have to be. Ultimately, to read what the anime is showing, she was molded into such.
I mean, kids are known to lash out and not realise what they're doing till afterwards. Thats gotta be a lot more dangerous when the kid has 4 invisible monomolecular swords she controls with her mind
>>44359657
Hey, manga Knight was way2qt5me.
>>44356091
God Japan is so fucking shit at ambiguous morality. This is ten year old level philosophy.
>>44360003
She is right though, devils aren't inherently evil in that series.
>>44360003
Its a Shounen dude. Its meant for 10 year olds.
>>44360003
The best kind of philosophy.
>>44360003
>God Japan is so fucking shit at ambiguous morality.
Because you're literally reading stuff meant for children and stunted man-children.
>>44356091
Coming from the Jewish/Christian perspective of Satan and his spawn being created from the collective evils of humanity no. This is why Japanese interpretations of demons in a Western setting is fucking stupid.
>>44356119
OP sins of lack of context
1) This is more eastern based than western based. When they say demons, they just mean "not human" or "yukai". For example, cute tiny faeries as tall as an apple? demon. Giants that sheperd mammoths? demon. Beastfolk seal fishing on the shore? demon. Dragon? demon. Etc
2) In that setting, Humans are actually just a demon tribe that was kicked out of the demon world for fucking the world, were exiled to another realm, and are really just another "tribe" of demon. Its just that so fucking long has passed that noone remembers it anymore.
Now, you need to answer again based on that information. But its not your fault. It's just your judeo-christian culture talking through you, plus OP not giving a context, plus the author hiding information until much later, plus translators using demon for yokai instead of just monster.
So, its a lot of things
>>44359961
>You will never have a devoted knight that only wants your head-pats and compliments.
>>44356245
>Isn't that elves?
You mean the long eared demon tribe? (in this setting anyway)
>>44356759
I pick killing you. If morality is objective, like I think it is, then you are pretty clearly a sociopath that needs to be put down for the good of society. If morality is subjective, than the only one who can judge my actions is my own self, and the hatred of the masses is meaningless.
>>44357047
Pathfinder does. Pathfinder has a whole "Path of Redemption" system to QUANTIFY an evil NPC or PC's journey back to Neutral or Good from the pits of Evil.
>>44360097
It isn't really meant to be ''demons'' anyway. The term she used doesn't mean that in Japanese, not as we'd understand it.
Unless Im very much mistaken, the term she used has more in common with Youkai, which are basically Fae. Not quite good but not quite bad, kinda capricious and with more powers than humans.
>>44356302
But you can introduce a concept of philosophical evil, where evil is defined as the intentional infliction of suffering.
Thus demons are evil for what they do, not what they are.
This allows for genuine conversion/reform.
>>44360157
It's a very big blanket term for anything that isn't human. Angels, Demons, Fairies are all essentially Youkai. That and Demons in Asian mythology are very much more just outside beings with magical powers. They act like people and have their own motivations for their actions.
>>44360141
Exactly! So the main question is whether I can kill you before you can kill me. Glad we agree.
>>44360256
Pretty much, yeah. Its why the statement actually kinda makes sense. Humanity in the setting just kinda saw these disparate beings, remembered legends where similar things were monsters, and went apeshit.
And funnily enough, I think those legends were based on memories of Humanity being exiled from the demon tribes.
>>44357741
created by who? those who you suppose are "good"? Thats the whole point. Depending on the perspective it can be seen either way.
>>44360003
No its just philosophy. They bring up points that people don't want to hear because it conflicts with their world view. See femnazis. Same shit. They think they're in the right that no matter what logical arguments are brought up they refute them. Learn2philosophy and morality.
>>44356157
One could make the argument that a demonic manifestation of the universe's evil is a necessary part of nature and therefore not a "evil" in terms of society/human reckoning.
The human concepts of good and evil are more like "social" and "anti-social", and while man is often in conflict with nature, there is a balance to be struck with natural forces. In a world where good and evil in the abstract, religious sense are actual natural forces, humanity might/should treat them like any other natural force.
So even beings of pure evil, if they existed, would be no more inherently "evil" or bad from a human perspective than fire or gravity.
>>44360003
She isn't actually philosophizing. She's just trying to convince a muscle-headed idiot to lower his sword and listen to what she has to say.
>>44360431
Defining evil as an act, rather than a status, works that way.
>>44360003
>expecting quality in Japanese media
This is where you fucked up.
>>44360465
Balzshiborth is going to torture those unborn baby fetus souls anyway, so it would evil for us NOT to harness the reaction to generate clean energy for developing nations.
>>44360532
Ah, so it's really about a Free Will. What if. Balzshiborth has never committed an evil act in its existence. Well, except for sloth, obviously.
>>44360485
>expecting quality by mature standards from something made for kids
This is where ye both fucked up
>>44360617
Media for children should be of the finest quality, considering the opportunity to have an impact on a child's development.
Alas, children do not possess discernment, so they are happy with crap.
>>44360097
>Coming from the Jewish/Christian perspective of Satan and his spawn being created from the collective evils of humanity no. This is why Japanese interpretations of demons in a Western setting is fucking stupid.
Coming from the historic perspective on Western religions, many demons were actually old gods and spirits that were a posteriori cast in a bad light by the monotheistic/monolateristic religions that grew in power.
>>44360673
You sound like a dickweed.
>>44356143
>This is from Maou Yuuya aka waifu economics and tits the anime
Mmmm.... Plot.
>>44360673
Well, that just doesn't make sense. You suggesting we start kids that barely know their hand from their face on Machiavelli or some shit?
Its kids media. It needs to do 2 things. Teach the occasional lesson and keep them distracted while mommy and daddy have some private adult time.
If she's fighting a war against all of humanity, then yes she is infact evil.
>>44360737
What about if Humanity is the aggressor?
>>44356360
You should read One Punch Man. I liked when the guy who was a hero gets asked "why are you a hero? I want to be a monster to terrorize humanity so that the bundle together for self protection. We lost the tribal instinct, the need to support and care for each other when we killed the last sabertooth and we no longer had to fear the dark, REALLY fear the dark. I will become a monster that all of humanity will fear, and when they are covered by fear, they wont have the time or the inclination to bully and hate each other. What do YOU expect to accomplish by calling yourself a hero and wearing that stupid stuit with that silly cloak? why are you a hero" and then he answers "its a hobby"
>>44360679
That was the case after the fall of the first temple, in the much of the newer interpretations (I believe it stared somewhere around the 13th century) of the concepts of Judaism it is more of the collective evils of humanity itself. A lot of Judaism try to but the blame for sin on humanity when Christianity started believing that sins where seductions of the devil. At least from what I understand.
>>44360750
It is impossible for the entirety of one species to collectively wage war on an outsider. If her purpose is to wipe out humanity then she is evil.
>>44360763
I've always considered One-Punch Man to be an inversion on Anime and Manga. It really does take the piss out of a lot of anime tropes.
>>44360799
That ain't her intention though. Her goal is to trade with Humanity.
Its a long story but basically humanity used to be demons too, were exiled and they have legends of evil demons as a result. Thus when she and her crew showed up, they started getting dogpiled.
Least thats how it went far as I can recall it.
It mightnt be logical but thats the plot.
>>44360799
Then you should read the fucking thing instead of spouting bullshit.
>>44356656
What about the "no, you were the villain all along!" angle?
Like, humans invaded demon tribe lands, killed or kicked out all the natives, then a demon king/hero raises up and leads his/her people to recover their lands, but a new generation of settlers has already been born and grown there and they firmly believe the demons are "eeeeeeevil" for trying to kick them out of "their" lands?
>>44356091
Doesn't matter.
Surrender, or draw your sword.
This bullshit is why I'm glad my current game can be summed up with pic related
>>44360824
>>44360835
I said "if". Calm down, this isn't /a/ where you're assumed to know the story to every aztec astrological enneagram.
>>44360882
Ive never understood this response. What will you do if she does neither? What if she just keeps ranting at you but refuses to surrender?
>>44356727
>Satan was an angel though, so Demons should be all Devas or nephilim if they were his spawn.
Depends on the setting, but if you are going with the rebellion of lucifer thing, then you are going with the judeo-christian tradition and need to know that according to that, all demons are former angels. They also CANNOT breed. This was a rather important point when the pope apologized on the years 1995, 1997 and 2000 about the "sins of the catholic church" and pointed out that the witch trials had been wrong and that all those women accussed of breeding with the devil were innocent by default because the act of breeding is an act that leads to creating life, and the devil cannot do that.
>>44360898
2 seperate dudes man. Sorry if my response (the long one) came across as aggressive, I was just attempting to explain the premise. Id still like yer opinion though, whos in the wrong then? Or is it just ''nobody wins'' at the end of the day?
>>44360905
Then you kill her pretty easily.
>>44360905
Attempt to apprehend her, beat her into submission/to death if she resists.
Or she can stop talking about dumb shit that I don't care about and start talking about shit that matters, like ceasefire terms.
I don't give a shit about good or evil, I'm on the clock here.
>>44357060
Dont forget that she's okay with having threesomes with you and female paladins, too
>>44360774
The devil didn't even appear until the Middle Ages and before some pope decided to invent shit the satan was just an angel whose job it was to accuse mankind.
The original devil was a bit of a pan like trickster, who had a very interesting introduction phrase he'd say whenever he entered the stage " ho ho ho! Aren't I a character?"
>>44360955
I thought ''draw your sword'' was an honour thing? How you gonna demand honourable battle and then just murder her while shes unarmed.
>>44360958
This is more sensible. Not entirely applicable, given that the dude in the OP image was basically sent as an assassin, but still a clever response. I like it.
>>44360917
You're fine, dude. I just forgot to delete the link to your post.
Well, the humans aren't being strictly evil if they're defending their homes. Why do the demons want to swap places with humanity? Sounds pretty dickish if you ask me.
>>44361000
No, I meant trade as in ''We have potatoes, you have gold. Wanna give me some gold for these lovely spuds, eh?''
I dont think the Demons ever wanted to swap places. Actually, I think they kicked Humanity out for trying to do that shit by force.
