hey /tg/
i have a question.
how do you guys deal with power players/hardcore min maxers in your campaigns?
i am currently Dming my first campaign in pathfinder and the biggest issue is one member of the party who WILL NOT stop power gaming.
he makes up half assed excuses in game as to why his character would take the actions he takes when in reality he is only doing so because he knows it will lead to him getting the most power. to a certain extent i would be fine with this, but the level he does it at is near game breaking for the other players. i have never had to deal with this before and i would like for it to be dealt with IN GAME in a way that will get him to stop but im at a loss. help me out?
Normally I'd say that power-gaming is pointless because the GM can just scale the enemies up to a level that matches the power-gamers... but I've had the same problem recently where a single player is doing it and scaling the enemies up means the other players get slaughtered.
The best solutions I've found are to make in-game situations where combat simply is not a viable option for solving every encounter. Give the skill-monkey rogue a chance to disguise the party or stealth through an encounter, give the mage a chance to be creative (God help you if your power-gamer is playing a mage though).
The other solution is just to force the power-game to play a "low-tier" class. That means no wizard, no sorcerer, no magus, no druid, no cleric, no casters in general. Make them play a fighteror even a Barbarian or Monk.
Kick.
Them.
Out.
You.
Retard.
>>44355600
>>44355621
i would like to avoid that.
>>44355600
he is playing a magus. i considered scaling the enemies but like you said it would just make it harder on the other players. catering to the other players and their skills has worked a little in the past but once the power gamer saw me do this he switched his play style up ever so slightly to where he can do just about everything the other players can.
>>44355621
i would like to avoid that. i dont want to deal with that conflict.
>>44355720
oops. don't know what that was about
>>44355720
>i would like to avoid that.
Then cry some more you stupid fucking bitch. Holy shit, grow some balls.
>>44355743
well, im not quite sure why you decided to be so uncivil in your response. but regardless.
the party i play with are close friends and removing him outright would have some adverse effects on my end. i would rather find a cleaver way to deal with in in game than deal with any potential backlash kicking him out of the party would cause.
>>44355780
clever*
>>44355720
You're running into a flaw with the system itself, which is why I recommended to not let the power-gamer play a caster.
Pathfinder as a system is very heavily skewed in favor of casters... in the sense that ANYTHING a martial class can do, a well-built caster can do better with magic. Anyone who's been on TG before has heard this rant from a million people besides me though.
Honestly, I usually make casters pick a single school of magic and specialize in it, this solves most problems of caster over-poweredness... however the Magus is a strange case. Perhaps moreso than any other caster class, the Magus is SUPPOSED to be versatile and dip into a little bit of everything. Taking that away kinda defeats the purpose of the class.
So... how exactly is he breaking the game? Maximized Shocking Grasp for like 180 damage per attack? Or did he do the build where he has a fly speed of 140 and abuses Fly-By and Lunge to hit enemies and then move out of their threat range?
>>44355797
you're not too faro off on the shocking grasp thing. he is killing the monsters far to quickly. and making something he cant kill easily would probably TPK
>>44355847
Spell-resistant and Electric-resistant/immune enemies are always a possibility (although there are meta magic feats that change Shocking Grasp's element). The Magus is also (generally) a close-quarter's fighter, so enemies with ranged attacks can slow them down.
Generally the best way to counter Casters though is to keep a close eye on the spells they have prepared each day and keep track of them actually using those spells. Unless the Magus is preparing Shocking Grasp multiple times in his spell slots, he should burn through it's uses fairly quickly. Get a laptop, make a spreadsheet showing all his spells, and mark off which ones he's prepared and used. I've seen TONS of groups not understand how spell slots and spell-uses work, and casters fudging this to their advantage is a HUGE problem.
A high level Magus only gets four Level 1 spell slots. If he's only prepared Shocking Grasp once, it's gone once he blows his load. Yeah, he could prepare it four times (he could even prepare it more if he uses higher spell slots), but then he's screwed as soon as something resistant to electricity comes along.
Try rewarding players for good role playing. Seems he is avoiding his character in favor of power. So make him choose between option a. Power, and option b. Extra exp for being a good player. Also, talking it out in real life is probably for the best. If he is a good friend he will understand and try to tone it back.
Have your villains fight smarter
It sounds like your upset a player is actually good at their goddamn job. If a magus is fucking things up, your encounters are VERY poorly balanced.
HP Damage has never and will never, break ANYTHING in pathfinder.
>>44356085
if he was doing his job and playing his character while power gaming i would be totally fine with it. its the fact that this player watches videos and looks up specifically how to make his character more powerful and then changes everything he does in game to better fit the new information.
>>44356174
If he's such a good friend with you, can't you just talk to him about it?
>>44355518
Do you have any specific examples?
Is he maxing out stealth further than the rogue does? Is he somehow dominating diplomacy harder than the paladin can? It is highly unlikely that he has EVERY facet of the game covered ahead of every other character.
>>44356174
This sort of behaviour requires insight into what's coming. Is this a case of being master a meta, or does he have too much information going into the dungeon?
>>44356174
Sounds like he should just play Dark Souls or something. He doesn't want to Roleplay, he wants to geek out over stats and numbers and builds. A videogame would serve his goals much better than a tabletop game.
>>44356198
for some further information. my game is more of a sandbox style game, with large overarching story aside from character arcs. the rest of the party is VERY role-play heavy, while my resident power gamer very rarely roleplays and instead kills things to get the most ex. currently he is level 13 while the rest of the party averages at level 9 (im using fast xp gain.) so for the most part, he can already do a better job at some things than what the rest of the party is supposed to do. he has more or less taken over the stealth position, the vanguard combat position as well as the diplomacy role.
>>44356284
>with large overarching story
no*
>>44356284
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
First off, EXP is being kept track of individually? Never do that. Make all characters gain the same EXP.
>>44356309
this is my first campaign so im not %100 sure why i should do that.
but it makes no sense to have all players gain the same xp if one person goes and kills bosses while another only shops and haggles
>>44356332
>im not %100 sure why i should do that
Because the powergamer is four levels ahead of everyone.
>one person goes and kills bosses while another only shops and haggles
Don't let him do that.
How long are your sessions? How much of that time s he taking up doing solo adventures?
>>44356284
This is your first problem.
1. Never have the party split up and go do their own things for more than very short segments.
2. Never keep track of experience individually, everyone levels up equally.
3. Don't reward experience for killing stuff. Reward it for completing plot arcs and advancing the story.
4. This one is personal opinion, but level 14 should be like... towards the END of a campaign. Maybe 15. Characters shouldn't ever get to 20 unless they've been in multiple campaigns and are like... a hero chosen by destiny or something. 20 is literally demi-god level, and even 14 or 15 is like... on par with Greek Heroes and the likes. This is where a campaign should ultimately end, not be somewhere the players can get to just by killing stuff in the woods.
>>44356332
...Keep the fucking party together you idiot.
You're not a GM for an MMO. The party is engaged in the same story, you shouldn't have one cuntbag running off having adventures by himself.
>>44355743
Even with hemoroids I'm less butthurt than you.
>>44356284>>44356332
Exp should be something the entire party gains as one, always. Even if the rogue goes off on their own and kills someone, everybody levels up together. That's the best way to avoid the "powerful gain power".
Some characters heal and negotiate. They don't kill monsters, but they help in other ways. The guy haggling is getting the parties items cheaper, they are still playing their role.
You might also want to consider a system wherein the players don't have to kill things to gain exp. If they talk their way through an encounter, they get the exp. If they cunningly bypass it using perfectly executed disguises and stealth and guile, they get the exp. This way, nobody feels like the game is all about combat and the killing of monsters, but it becomes reasonable to sneak around.
Frankly, I just tell all the players to level up after every few sessions or at the end of a story arc.
>>44356365
Aaand if the player in question moans and says they killed the monster so they should get exp, call them a munchkin faggot. The game is not about trying to out compete your own party.
>>44356365
>>44356332
>If they talk their way through an encounter, they get the exp
You can also just do this in PF. They completed the encounter, they get the stuff for doing that. They just happened to have done so by avoiding it this time.
>>44355792
....you may have misspelled your way to an answer. Would anyone notice if the player went missing?
>>44356345
sessions usually last about 3 hours.
everyone goes off and does their own thing for the most part...i was unaware this was a bad thing. i thought forcing the party to stay together would be worse. >>44356348
>2. Never keep track of experience individually, everyone levels up equally.
>3. Don't reward experience for killing stuff. Reward it for completing plot arcs and advancing the story.
my campaign is sandbox based. there arent alot of story arcs. and on the pathfinder website (d20pfsrd) it gives individual xp for killing certain level things. am i not supposed to use this at all?
Now I'm kind of wondering if OP is also making new characters start at level 1, like some sort of MMO.
>>44356388
>>44356398
>my campaign is sandbox based
Doesn't matter.
>there arent alot of story arcs
'Sandbox' and 'has a story' aren't at odds. And 'sandbox' doesn't mean 'wander around and fight monsters.'
Yeah, it says do stuff by RAW, but that's obviously not working out, is it?
PF isn't what we would call... 'good.' It has a lot of problems.
If you're players are only running dungeons, call it an arc and give them EXP at the end of it.
>>44356406
the first session i saw the DM made the new players start at level one. so i just did the same.
im starting to get the feeling im basing my campaign off the wrong type of DM
>>44356398
Forcing the party together is somewhat necessary for a coherent plot progression. If the party doesn't want to be together, why are they all even showing up for game night? They could just come over and bullshit with you on their own if they wanted solo games, and then it wouldn't matter who was strongest.
The only time the players shouldn't be together is for very short one-session plot arcs or the likes. If you have a player who's main motivation is to find their father, for example, it's acceptable for him to have a moment with his father when he finally finds him, the rest of the party doesn't need to be hovering around him for that. The same goes for like... short training arcs (mage picks up some tricks at the magic academy, meanwhile the fighter is talking to the local swordsman hero, ect) or instances when a party member goes to scout ahead (if the thief is breaking into a bandit fort to open the gate for the rest of the party, for example, it's not much good to have the big noisy fighter trying to follow him and breaking stealth).
I find the best way to achieve party unity is to tell the players before the game starts what the premise is going to be. For example, tell the players they're all part of the same guild, religious order, thief clan, mercenary group ect, depending on what they wana play... or at the very least have them all hired by the same employer as your initial plothook.
>>44356406
Eh, starting off at level 1 isn't terrible if the first handful of level-ups are quick. I personally prefer starting at 4, so there's a bit of room to begin customizing your character... but level 1 isn't awful or unplayable.
>>44356427
New characters in a brand new campaign, sure. If someone dies, and rolls a new character half way through, they should be at the same level as the rest of the party.
>>44356424
This isn't really about PF as a system. PF is a perfectly good system.
>>44356398
One nice thing about this game is that players and characters can work together to take on foes larger than themselves. Most parties actually have a "don't split the party" rule, because they assume that the encounters will be tougher than anything they can take on their own. Each player gets their spotlight during the journey, because they all have different skills which work to a specific thing. The rogue takes care of traps, the barbarian slays large monsters, the cleric keeps people safe from harm.
You should try to come up with a thing that will all the PCs interested. Impending orc invasion, rampant plague... Otherwise, why have these people on the same table?
>>44356398
The way the rules are written for handling experience is awful. Yes, don't reward experience for killing stuff. It creates dumb arguments over who gets the "credit" for kills, creates murder-hobo mentality amongst the players and encourages violence as the most fruitful answer to everything, and generally encourages grindy video-game mentality instead of story-oriented roleplaying.
>>44356451
I actually like playing at level 1 in a new campaign. Being all dinky, trying to save up for a sword, but making do with frying pan. Being a wizard with no spells, so eventually tapping out and swinging your cane around. Good fun.
>>44356436
here is the problem with that. i agree with you %100, but my party is new to tabletop games and i am new to DMing. they want to play the game like its an MMO and not a table top, and because of this get more or less "angry" with me when i attempt to railroad them together because they think its an MMO and want that endless amount of character freedom. i understand this is the heart of the problem, and i will address this in my next campaign. i am using the game i am running now more or less as a testing ground to learn from and getting information from you guys here at /tg/ as i assume you are all far more experienced than i am.
>>44356486
It's OK, when I first got into tabletop games, I as a player, treated them like MMOs as well.
Treating tabletops like MMOs is a dead-end path though. Eventually you realize that if that's all you wanted, you'd be better off just playing an MMO or loading some mods up into Skyrim or something. At this point you either lose interest in the hobby, or you start to actually roleplay and see tabletops can provide sooo much more than any MMO ever could.
>>44356503
as a player and a DM i absolutely love roleplaying. probably in part because i think i am fairly good at it. i dont know how to accurately reward good roleplay XP. so if anyone could tell me of a good system to reward roleplay xp i will be more than happy to use it
>>44356486
So, here's what you do. Let's say one of the characters decides he wants to set up a tavern and run it. He buys the tavern, but you decide to make it haunted by malevolent spirits. Make the spirits more powerful than what his character can deal with, so that he needs to recruit the other players to help. Make the malevolent spirits so dangerous, that they start creeping out and disrupting what the others are trying to do. Now the party has one problem to deal with, and they can work together to get each of their own interests working.
>>44355518
You talk with them. Tell them that their character is getting too powerful and needs a nerf.Worked for me.I'm the power player.
>>44356522
Why the fuck are you using XP at all?
>>44356522
If you make a system, the players will abuse it. Generally your best bet is to give a level up whenever the players significantly progress the plot (or fail to. Being beaten by the big-bad and having to go train for a bit can be OK as well).
This doesn't mean to give the party a level up every single session, but if they've gone awhile without one, maybe next time the party fights something tough or has some downtime... maybe the Magus figures out a new bit of magic as he's thinking back on the most recent fight, or the fighter thinks up a new sword technique, or whatever.
>>44356522
Reward it with a laugh. Make it something you do for the fun of it. If you dish out XP, people start being overly trite, and start doing things in character that will give them XP. Then they start ending every sentence with "How much RP XP did I get?"
Same with the Hero Points / Inspiration mechanics.
That said, some people do need that encouragement. If they roleplay well in an encounter,
and speak in character rather than just saying "I roll to diplomacize!", you might give them a +2 bonus on their eventual diplomacy roll.
If people inquire about things about NPCs, maybe the NPC will provide some non-obvious information about some secret treasure they can collect. If the players look after their in-character interests, make sure it pays off with in-game wealth.
>>44356601
If you want people to roleplay more, then just ask them how they go about doing things. You don't have to bribe them, just tell them. Pedagogue style.
Ask them about their method of knocking down a door. Do they kick it? Do they use their shoulder? Do they pick up the fighter and use him as a battering ram? Ask for a specific warcry as they charge, ask them what they shout for their intimidation, ask them what kind of clothes they are wearing. If they should be more verbose in conversation, just have the NPC give a short answer, leaving silence, so that the players feel compelled to fill it.
And always always lead by example. Describe *how* the enemies attack. Then get the players to describe how *they* attack, particularly when they get the killing blow, so they feel extra cool.
>>44356646
thats a good idea
I'm running a campaign. I still count exp from combat/killing, but it goes into an equal split. it's okay so far, but we're only at level 3 and I still give bonuses for story advancement/roleplay. I don't know if it's a good system, but it seems to make sense.
The party sticking together would help immensely, I think.
>>44356856
I think it's generally better to award xp to those who come to the sessions.
But that's just me.
>>44355518
In most games,try to convince them to play tactician characters, battlemaster fighter in 5e, warlord in 4e, high war skill in L5R, the sort of thing that could encourage them to build around the other players and to explain why their character feels qualified to order them around during combat.
In 3.5 and Pathfinder, this requires an extra layer though, don't just limit them, limit the entire party to tiers. He can optimise all he wants, but a rogue isn't going to make a barbarian feel useless
>>44356884
>>44356884
>>44356899
Oh, no. We already got to the crux of the issue, and that isn't it. Try reading the thread first.
>>44355915
>what is spell recall?
>>44357356
You don't even have a point, what is there to debate, fuckwit?
>>44356899
Are you saying >>44356884 is entirely wrong or entirely right?
