Hey /tg/, my friends and I really love monks, the concept of monks, the appearance, the kung fu, the tropes.
But, we all know pathfinder is bad for monks. What system has a good monk class, what makes it good?
>>44350365
Pathfinder.
>>44350386That should be
Original ; Correct Translation; Literal Translation
>>44350386
>PF Monks
>>44350365
4e Monks are actually really fun if you like the system
>>44350365
Fantasy Craft
Anima: Beyond Fantasy
Legends of Wulin
Sort of:
Shadowrun
D&D 5e
True20
>>44350705
Thanks for telling me how little you know about the language.
English, that is.
>>44350365
Legends of the Wulin. You'd be a Sage, someone who cultivates wisdom as much as they do their martial arts.
>>44350717
Not everyone has to play a minmaxer to have fun.
>>44350762
>Literally dysfunctional class that is almost useless in typical gameplay and acts in play nothing like its fluff inspiration.
>Hurr, if you don't eat dogshit you're high maintenance.
No.
>>44350978
>That Guy
>>44351114
>Wanting to play a functional class is That Guy.
No.
>>44350365
You need oriental / asian setting.
>>44350762
>Not everyone has to play a minmaxer to have fun.
But you want to play someone competent to have fun. In 3.5e and to a slightly lesser degree in pathfinder, monks are entirely fucking useless for anything except going fast.
They're supposed to be a melee class, but don't even get full BAB. They can't wear armor but WIS to AC "compensates" for it. Stunning fist is horribly underpowered as well.
So all in all, a halfway playable monk needs:
>STR, for damage output as well as to compensate for sub par BAB
>DEX, for armor and skills
>CON, for HP
>INT for skills
>WIS for AC and monk abilities
CHA is literally the only stat you can dump, everything needs to be pretty damned high. And even then you'll fall behind because your class features are horrible and have zero synergy.
Everything a monk can do, a barbarian with three levels in the Fist of the Forest prestige class can do better. Much, much better.
>>44350717
This. 4e monks = god tier.
>>44351277
>>44351184
I've played a PF monk and have known many people who have also played and enjoyed them
Stop treating tabletop like a videogame.
>>44351342
See, my issue is that I can create a character that completely encompasses the monk, easily. To the point that literally anything the monk attempts to do, I can simply do better.
>>44350365
4e D&D has good monks and is the only D&D with a strong monk class
Legends of the Wulin, where basically everyone is a Monk
Shadowrun, where adepts - particularly punch adepts - are easy and strongk. Enjoy punching with the force of a barret sniper rifle.
>>44351366
That's because you're a minmaxer. A Rollplayer.
That Guy.
Don't shit on people for enjoying things and they won't shit on you.
>>44351342
And I've played a PF Monk and been basically completely outclassed and useless because my AC, damage, and noncombat abilities are all inferior to just about every other character.
Excusing bad design with "Well I made it work/had fun with it" is retarded.
>>44351395
>I'm a complete douchebag who insults other people when they have legitimate complaints.
>I think I can ignore the testimonials of dozens of people and the hundreds of theorycrafting threads we've had on this same topic saying "Monks in Pathfinder are flawed and ineffectual" purely on the grounds that I was either lucky or the DM accommodated me.
>>44351395
That's completely retarded. If anything to actually create a monk that feels and plays like what a monk should be requires an absurd degree of optimization and system mastery in 3.5/Pathfinder. What the OP is obviously looking for is a system in which someone completely new to the game can create a kung fu dude that can actually contribute to the group without needing their hand held by the DM.
D&D 5e monks are pretty good. They start out with above-average damage, and as that settles out in comparison to the heavy hitters, they pick up a pretty nice bag of tricks both in core and their subclass.
It's a shame about the Four Elements monk, though.
>>44351395
No I mean simply by playing the class, unless I purposefully make the character bad, will completely eclipse the monk.
I see you love monks too /tg/. I was reading that PDF and forgot to reply, thanks for all these suggestions.
>>44351516
That's a dick move no matter what.
>>44351481
>like what a monk should be
That's your fault.
>>44351427
>blah blah blah
It's a fine class. Y'all are just autistic minmaxers who have systematically ruined the spirit of tabletop by treating it no differently than an MMO.
5e monks can be really powerful and fun if you roll well. Playing as the Paladin with a dragonborn monk in the party. Since I have to balance support-healer with damage dealer (we have no cleric or other healer), a monk is really useful to help tag-team bigger enemies. Also, his AC with just robes on is 19. Motherfucker can't get hit by most enemies. Also gets a ton of unarmed/staff attacks per turn.
>>44351608
>Literally "Facts are racist" tier.
Try harder.
>>44351608
>That's a dick move no matter what.
You just completely ignored what I said.
If the monk doesn't minmax, and I, the wizard, do not minmax, then likely I will completely eclipse the monk in his ability to interact with the world simple because I am a wizard. The only way for this not to occur is if the monk is built with optimization in mind and I make the wizard intentionally bad.
I'm saying monks should be buffed to be in line with everyone else, because they clearly have issues.
Anima Beyond Fantasy, playing as a Tao
Pic related is the list of martial arts in the dominus exxet. Each one can grant bonuses in addition to just their fighting style, ranging from additional attacks to Fist of the North Star type shit
>>44351662
A wizard will always eclipse a martial.
Good friends don't negate their friends characters.
Quit playing tabletop, go back to LoL.
>>44351631
A monk is just an acetic. Not goku. "How they should be" is a vacuous statement at best.
>>44351662
>>44351688
Does nobody here play 5e? Me, my friend, and our DM once took a look through the player manual and figured out how to make a stupidly powerful monk that could run 90ft, do 4 melee attacks, and run 90ft away. He was a RANGED PUNCHER. And this was with rather average rolls mind you.
>>44351688
>If I repeat my obvious bait often enough, maybe it'll become true!
>>44351716
>>44351712
Theorycrafting does not belong in tabletop. It belongs in WoW, at best.
I guess if all that matters to you is numbers and how hard you punch and that's all there is to your characters, then i cannot change your minds.
But you're Rollplaying.
>>44351688
>A wizard will always eclipse a martial
I couldn't decide whether to post this or a bait picture, but seriously.
Try playing a non-shit game where the classes are equal.
In PF you are gonna have better time playing an initiator. STEELFIST COMMANDO, warlord archetype.
Regrettably 3p material, but if Dreamscarred Press isn't allowed your DM inhales cocks for breakfast.
And in 3.5e there's unarmed swordsage.
>>44351742
>Lets make up rules but not talk about whether the rules are good or bad or how to improve them.
>Just, literally shit on the pages and call it a game, no one will notice.
>>44351751
Oh, you mean nothing?
Go ahead, have your big spergy war over martials never matching up to casters. Completely miss the point of tabletop roleplaying games.
>>44351742
Nobody is rollplaying, the monk is literally incapable of doing its one job without hardcore minmax, and is not only a useless addition to the party, but forces the GM to balance around your fucking dead weight.
>>44350365
Feng Shui.
The Feng Shui Martial Artist class is the 2nd most powerful melee class in the game, The most powerful? Old Master, naturally.
Martial artists start the game with special moves like "Hands without Shadow" (Enemies cannot dodge), Dim Mak (Ignore armor), and Lightning fist (Enemies cannot use TOUGHNESS to reduce damage, toughness being really important to survival of named and unnamed characters).
Those attacks were all just the Path of the Hands of Light, in just the core book, they have 13 different martial arts paths that they can follow, everything from Empty Bottle (Drunken Master), Selective Master (extra damage with your signature weapon, not all weapons of a type, YOUR weapon. it's special, and you always get it back.), even the Path of the Tightening Coils (Slow foes, speed yourself. attack on turns that aren't yours.)
>>44351776
It's not a game. It's a story told with friends within a loose framework of rules.
You've missed the point by lightyears. I bet you'd flip the table if your DM ever fudged numbers for sake of enjoyment and plot.
>>44351777
Actually, we'll just play better games.
>>44351742
You have to be trolling. Because you want a monk to be mechanically able to do what they are described to do in fluff does not make you a "rollplayer".
Wanting mechanics and fluff to work together instead of against each other does not make you a rollplayer.
>>44351712
5e is not really an offender compared to 3.5/3e/PF
>>44351805
Yeah i hear WoW supports all sorts of minmaxing and theorycrafting.
Or spheres or power. You'd probably like that, wouldn't you?
>>44351804
>Roleplaying games aren't games.
>The rules being bendable means they should be nonfunctional
>Its fun to suck or when the rules lie to you.
You must be a riot at parties.
>>44351777
>there are literally no games where martials are equivalent to casters
Ur 1 'ell of a shitposter m8
>>44351840
Why should that matter? Just have fun.
>>44351688
>Good friends don't negate their friends characters.
Unless I intentionally make my character bad it will simply by being the class it is.
Why shouldn't his character be the best at it's specialization, instead of worse than me at something I am not specialized in. It doesn't make sense from a roleplaying perspective. Why should I keep working with people who are worse than my character in every way simply because I am the class I am.
>>44351742
Theorycrafting was not my point. My point was that monks aren't useless. They have roles they can play. Yeah, they have a weird-ass power curve, but as long as you pay attention to your feats and your abilities, you should be fine. My party's monk doesn't minmax at all, and he's doing just fine. He's a hell of a utility character.
>>44351871
Because then it's a mary sue. You're just describing how awful of a person you are.
>>44351851
>>44351849
Seriously, Play WoW. Leave fun stories to Tabletop.
>>44351880
How nice of your GM to take such good care of the party's pet Monk.
>>44351880
If you metagame hard enough you can make anything strong. Even a PF monk can multiclass with War Priest and be One Punch Man.
But if that's the only reason you made the character, then tear up the sheet and you'll be assigned a default pregen.
>>44351777
Actually, Feng Shui, again, Martials, Casters, Guns, and Creatures are all fairly balanced. Mostly because the game is patterned after action movies, and all action movie characters are thematically equally effective.
People see baits, recognize them as such, and still fall for them.
>>44351880
>>44351900
>My one anecdote somehow reverses reality.
>The Monk is a great utility character, except he's not a jack of trades like a Bard, not pure utility like a Rogue or Wizard, has worse damage and AC and HP then just about everyone, most of his abilities miss or don't work, and half his abilities actually contradict the other abilities. Those that don't most spellcasters get as a single spell by level 5.
You are wrong. Shut up.
>>44351863
Because let say I'm Michael the Monk adventuring with my friend Walter the Wizard.
We need to infiltrate this building. I could be cool and dodge their traps, hide amongst the shadows, and narrowly make it inside to do so. Hell, I put ranks in it so I have a +10 to stealth and a +10 to acrobatics.
However, Walter the Wizard can turn invisible, giving him a +40 to stealth, and fly simply bypassing the traps entirely. This costs him nothing besides two slots, which he has quite a few of.
From an in game perspective, why should we go with my risky way when the wizard can do it much better than me? What is the point of me being around at all?
>>44351863
Imagine, if you will, a basketball game. There's a kid in the wheelchair who also wants to play.
Now you have to make a choice: do you exclude the kid in the wheelchair because he cannot physically compete, or do you lower yourselves to operate on his level? Scenario 1: the kid feels bad. Scenario 2: everyone feels bad, because nobody is even breathing hard at the end, and it feels patronizing to the cripple.
This is 3.5, a game where the crippled and the athletes are thrown onto the field and are expected to play nice with each other.
>>44351906
It's fun to play with friends. Get some and try it some time, you'll see.
>>44351900
>Because then it's a mary sue. You're just describing how awful of a person you are.
You have to be trolling, you're just throwing buzzwords at posts without actually reading them.
You're saying the fact someone chose to play a wizard makes them a mary sue. Are you advocating that wizards should not be played?
>>44351900
>mary sue
It's a very different system but Exalted has loads of cool martial arts stuff. There are a bunch of different martial arts styles that have loads of cool powers.
>>44350365
Play HERO, where they have a wide variety of maneuvers, that you can chain together for different effects, and you can be every bit as capable as the wizard, so long as you build that way.
>>44351947
I'd rather stay alone if having friends means playing D&D.
Why is /tg/ so easily trolled?
>>44351995
Yeah i should stop responding to minmaxers. They just bring down the quality of the entire hobby that i care about, so it's easy to troll me.
>>44351995
Poe's law.
>>44350365
Unchained Monks are pretty neat
>>44351941
>tortured basketball analogy
I know i'm being trolled, but you're saying tabletop is a competition with stakes?
Who are you competing with?
What are the stakes?
>>44352042
The unchained monk is still a bit disappointing, but it's an absolutely staggering improvement over the 3.5 monk it came from. Ideally it'd be nice if it got a few more utility powers and a ki pool that wasn't smaller than Crystal's hormonally mangled dick, but beggars can't be choosers.
>>44352057
It's not so much it being a competition, it's playing any game at all with an individual who can not compete on the same level as others. Not small differences inherent to being different indivudals. It's like recreational jogging, but someone is missing a leg.
>>44351937
Walter the wizard is a dick. 99% of players won't pick those things unless they read a minmaxers guide online.
Netsheeting, if you will. Why would you allow such horrible metagaming?
>>44352098
>no one will pick Fly or Invisibility
>>44350732Please enlighten me
>>44352098
You really dropped the ball with this post senpai.
>>44352098
>99% of players, if given the option, wouldn't want to be able to fly or turn invisible.
>>44352097
You're assuming that everyone playing a game has 100% knowledge of the mechanics and they metagame hard enough to intentionally munchkin their character to be as powerful as the system allows.
I've never played with such a group of jerks. We don't take it seriously, that's why we have fun.
>>44352098
Invisibility and Flying, two of the most easily understood and common spells for utility, is something people will not take?
I run a Dungeons and Dragons club on a university campus, have been for years, and have probably inducted a fair few more people into the hobby than you have.
Invisibility and flying are spells people almost always take. You know why? Because people think it's cool to fly or be invisible.
"Hidden" min-maxing spells that require game mastery is stuff like snowball and paragon surge.
Also min-maxing is the wrong word, as it implies a min.
Post more bait memes.
>>44352124
Look at the post above with Michael the Monk and Walter the Wizard. It's a good example of how the monk is invalidated by someone simply playing a character.
>>44352121
>>44352120
>>44352113
You do know how many other second level spells there are, right? Not everyone googles a guide before rolling a char.
Have you ever not had access to google in your lives? That would explain a lot. We didn't have Prima Guides to Dungeons and Dragons in my day.
>>44352098
>No one will ever take flying or invisibility spells.
>Flying and being invisible aren't some of the most popular choices for superpowers that people dream of having whether they're into tabletop games, football, or fucking anything else at all ever.
>Clearly no one would ever see their obvious utility in scores of situations, or simply pick them because why the fuck not it's cool as shit.
What are you even on right now?
>>44352159
Playing a character with metagame knowledge from theorycrafting that singles out those spells as being the best. You didn't pick them, a guide told you to.
That's metagaming at its worst.
What's even worse about you jerks is that if the GM did anything to circumvent the invis or fly, like nets or aerosolized powder, you'd flip the table in rage for "hamstringing my perfect mary sue!"
Jeez you guys. I'm glad i don't have to babysit you.
>>44352210
>>44352167
>>44352210
>a guide told me to pick flight or invisibility, not the rule of cool
okay
>>44352167
Yes, and in the sea of second level spells what is easily understood and sounds great?
Invisibility.
People who are new to the game are more likely to choose it than anything else because they know what it does at a glance.
>>44351900
>Playing a non shit class
>then it's a mary sue.
>>44352194
Yeah yeah. Keep making excuses for using guides. I've made quite a few wizards and i only picked invis and fly once, and i never used the spells because it negated my friends too much. It's not like there aren't a hundred other spells to cast. They're just not "optimal", lol.
>Everyone in this thread
Oh god please stop feeding the troll. Why are you feeding the troll so hard?
I salute you, man. You really got the ball rolling.
>>44352210
So you're saying people who don't know how to play the game literally choose spells at random? Because if they chose what sounded cool or what they could understand Invisibility would be at the top of the fucking list, as would fly.
>nets or aerosolized powder
See, this isn't the point. Things to bypass can be done to any character. The fact you HAVE to use something special to bypass them means they are doing something beyond the other class.
>>44352251
See, you say that, but that makes no fucking sense from a roleplaying perspective. You're being a rollplayer by "trying to let your friends shine". Sure, you were being nice, doesn't mean the game should be this way.
>>44352251
..........So............ you just admitted that everyone else in the thread is right and you're wrong?
You just admitted that you picked both those spells, even though you don't minmax, just for fun, and that you had to hold back your character and not even have fun the way you really wanted to because doing so would have completely invalidated your friends' characters, even though according to you that's not possible in the first place because the game isn't meant to be played that way and you can't simply invalidate someone unless everyone is playing with a min-max mentality.
I just about cover it?
>>44352251
>My anecdote makes this true
>I purposely went out of the way to avoid using good things, because if I just went with what looks cool, I would be more powerful than everyone else
>>44352263
There's nothing more interesting going on
>>44352235
Rule of cool will pick any spell at random because they all sound pretty cool.
Rule of Metagaming says to pick invis and fly.
>>44352244
Use your words.
>>44352238
Continual Flame
Fire Sneeze
Flaming Sphere (pretend you're fred flintstone bowling)
Silent Table
Stricken Heart
Elemental Speech
Have you people ever made a character and not just a statblock? Do you make metagamey choices and then wrap a thin sheet over it and call it a character?
Just stop with the arrogant preaching that there is only ONE WAY to play a class or a character or the fucking genre.
>>44352268
>literally choose spells at random
I'm pretty sure you could do this and still end up with something that invalidates Monk more often than not.
>>44352268
>So you're saying people who don't know how to play the game literally choose spells at random? Because if they chose what sounded cool or what they could understand Invisibility would be at the top of the fucking list, as would fly.
Nobody i know has ever taken fly. One guy took invis, and the DM would periodically fuck it over to give the other players a chance. Nobody wants to play with someone who intentionally makes their character overpowered to sate some psychological issues with success.
>>44352297
>Have you people ever made a character and not just a statblock? Do you make metagamey choices and then wrap a thin sheet over it and call it a character?
Friend, the thing is, with those spells you just posted, you have again made a character who can simply do things other can't. You're proving my point.
>>44352297
>Rule of cool will pick any spell at random because they all sound pretty cool.
I sure do love Mindrape, that sounds rad.
>>44351932
that's the main reason I keep coming to this board
>>44352321
Oh noes! oh god that's just horrible! I guess he'll have to show DISCRETION.
It is the better part of valor for a reason.
Or, you know, people without issues don't care, because they're there to have fun, not fucking compete. DND isn't street fighter.
>>44352318
>Nobody i know has ever taken fly.
I have gotten a lot of people into the hobby. Nearly all who played casters chose to fly.
>One guy took invis, and the DM would periodically fuck it over to give the other players a chance.
So your DM made sure to fuck over the person for choosing a spell to give other people time to shine?
>Nobody wants to play with someone who intentionally makes their character overpowered to sate some psychological issues with success.
I'm saying the game shouldn't make it so simply taking a fucking spell should make them overpowered. How can you not get this through your fucking skull.
A monk CAN'T be overpowered. A wizard will become overpowered BECAUSE it's a wizard unless they intentionally do not take utility spells.
>>44352346
>DISCRETION
To these people, that's synonymous with being a terribad, or coddling or something else. They cannot understand.
>>44352346
>Oh noes! oh god that's just horrible! I guess he'll have to show DISCRETION.
Why would he do that in character. You're being a filthy fucking rollplayer who is using meta justification for his character's actions.
You're what's wrong with this hobby you autistic fuck.
>>44352361
>So your DM made sure to fuck over the person for choosing a spell to give other people time to shine?
It's a multiplayer game, silly. The wizard caught on and didn't use it as often as a result. That's called respect.
>I'm saying the game shouldn't make it so simply taking a fucking spell should make them overpowered. How can you not get this through your fucking skull.
Because it's not a competitive video game. If players cannot show discretion, fuck them.
>>44352363
Saying "I'm not gonna use this spell so someone else can shine" shouldn't exist in the system. It means the system has problems if a single spell invalidate's someone else's role. That spell shouldn't exist in the form it does.
>>44350386
>Good monks
>PF
PFffhahaha indeed
OP, Anima has good monks (Tao), incredible versatile on combat without sacrificing out of combat possibilities.
>>44352379
>Why would he do that in character.
He's not a dick wizard. He'll let the monk try jumping or whatever before he tries.
It's just a game. Why do you have to be mad?
>>44352387
Then you're not playing a roleplaying game. You're actually not roleplaying because you're using meta-justification for your actions. You're the one treating it like a videogame, not like a fucking story.
Are there any games where I can build Kenshiro?
>>44352396
This is your own personal agenda and standards. They only apply to you.
Think about this for one second, you're flipping out that people don't care about making optimal characters.
>>44352409
rollplaying min maxer detected
>>44352409
>It's just a game. Why do you have to be mad?
In character it IS NOT a game. For the character's it is life or death. Why in character would the wizard let the monk try when he knows that he has a higher chance of success, and thus a higher chance of getting everyone home alive?
You're treating this like a videogame without consequences. The characters in game have huge consequences. You're just throwing roleplaying out the window. Your GM too with metapunishment. All of you.
>>44352409
The monk literally dies because the wizard allowed him to attempt something dangerous he had no conceivable chance of succeeding at, while he himself could have easily succeeded in the same thing, and indeed will after the monk fails.
Congratulations, your wizard is now evil as fuck and you're responsible for killing a character. You fucking player-killing piece of shit.
>>44352416
The wizard is capable of knowing that invisibility can cancel out his compatriots abilities in-game. He can decide to be a showboating dick or to be the ace in the hole.
>>44352431
I'm saying the system is broken, people saying "Well it's ok that it is broken, we make sure to punish people who use spells that are broken" doesn't solve the problem. He literally said his GM punished the guy who tried to use invisibility until he stopped by fucking him over.
They're destroying the roleplay aspect of the game.
>>44352409
Oh, he'll *LET* the monk try something? He'll allow, in his infinite fairness, the character to attempt being functional, because he's nice about it?
You're illustrating the problem you're trying to pretend doesn't exist.
>>44352436
The wizard likes to see the puny martials struggle, then he effortlessly waves a finger to solve the problem. Or he's a coward and he saves the invis to run the fuck away and get the party resurrected.
Sounds like a wizard to me.
I give up. You guys have some serious issues that you use tabletop to medicate.
>>44352409
>Being this metagamer
>>44352445
The wizard watches as his friends get maimed and hurt attempting to do things that would be simple for him. He watches, quietly and patiently, as they fail and get mangled, until he sighs and tells them that if they really can't do it, he'll give them a hand.
Every other character now considers the wizard a fucking piece of shit. Meanwhile, the wizard is smug as fuck in his knowledge that other people around him can even try to be relevant only because he'll let them.
10/10 wizard, would play.
>>44352445
Ok, lets use an example situations again.
We need the intel inside the base. If we don't get it a lot of people are going to die. Should the wizard who has a much better chance of getting it go in? or should the monk who has a lower chance go in? Should the wizard not go because it may hurt the monk's feelings, despite the fact a lot of people might die.
What you're saying is the wizard cares more about the monk's self confidence than his own life. If you want to play your character like that, go ahead. I'm saying it's an edge case and most people care about their life more than their friend's self-confidence.
>>44352429
Broken Blade from the 3rd party supplement in path of war is basically the kenshiro discipline if you use it right.
>>44352503
The monk uses his wisdom score to suggest they hire a scryer. Quest Complete.
Don't you perfectly spherical cow me.
>>44352387
>It's a multiplayer game
>>44351804
>It's not a game. It's a story told with friends within a loose framework of rules.
sure bro
>>44352606
game is synonymous with pvp to you?
>>44352601
>The monk uses his wisdom score to suggest they hire a scryer.
The wizard would then... scry, using his high intelligence score to realize they should scry.
You're not actually making a point.
>>44352620
Oh the wizard has every spell. I forgot that. My bad.
>>44352618
No one has mentioned PvP, stop trying to move goalposts.
>>44352620
That's not how intelligence works. He knows a lot, but without a similarly high wisdom score, he doesn't know when or how to properly apply it.
Knowledge without wisdom sums up this thread to a T.
>>44352651
Oh yeah, that's me alright. Not you guys with your horrible perfectly spherical cow situations.
Just stop playing tabletop if imbalance triggers you so terribly.
>>44352645
Scry, fly, and invisibility. Three of the most common spells. There is a fairly good chance that if the wizard doesn't, between the spell casters in the party someone does.
See, the thing is, the monk still hasn't contributed anything. Telling them they should hire out doesn't mean they made a contribution mechanically. It doesn't mean the classes are remotely balanced.
Why are you being against class balance? I don't understand.
Even if you say "We don't need it, we can roleplay around it", wouldn't it be better if classes were made equal so that new players can build roughly equal characters?
Because between the new person who builds and wizard and the new person who builds a monk, the monk has a high chance of actually becoming simply unplayably bad (in terms of ability to contribute mechanically to a situation).
>>44352696
>imbalance
oh.
>>44352696
Can't tell if you are sperging or trolling.
Either way, nice job baiting these idiots.
>>44352502
Isn't CHA the dumpstat of choice for minmaxers? At least it wouldn't be terribly metagamey if the players hated a jerk.
Ohhh. You know what i bet really offends you guys? Random Stat Rolls.
Let me guess, you always do point buys? That explains a lot.
>>44352711
>Three of the most common spells.
Cite source.
>blah blah blah
Then don't play.
>>44352743
>WHAT? OF COURSE HE HAS 20 INT, HE'S A WIZARD!
>STOP GIMPING REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>44352743
You've already got a good gig going here why are you trying to ruin it with different bait
Ok, here's another example.
I am a wizard, I have 18 int, my casting stat. I have 10 strength so I'm average. This means I have 6 skill ranks a level.
My friend is a fighter, he has 18 strength, the stat he uses to hit things. He has 10 int so he's average. This means he has 2 skill ranks per level.
Simply because I am a wizard, and an intelligence based caster, I will have more skill ranks than my friend. If I NEVER cast a spell I simply can do more things than him.
What is worse I can not simply let him 'try' do a skill he doesn't have ranks in, because there is a fair chance he simply can't accomplish the task at all.
I am competent at 4 more things than him, unless he invested in int. However, if he did it makes him worse at his own role, striking things. Where as me, the wizard, is great at my role AND has skills.
How is this fair?
Tome of Battle's unarmed-variant Swordsage makes a good monk.
>>44352800
>How is this fair?
Life's not fair. How much are you trying to hide from that fact?
>>44352645
There're spells that are pretty much a must due how good and how ofter then can save your life or make your life more easy.
>>44352766
>Cite source.
I've run a D&D club at a campus, seen a shit ton of players. I've run PFS because for some fucking reason I went through the process to get a license. I see a lot of players, those spells are extremely common. Especially among new people who have no idea what spells do (for invis and fly).
>blah blah blah
Now you're just admitting you don't have an argument.
So. What would you think of a Druid turning into a bear because he took the moon Druid archetype (one of the two archetypes) and completely outclassing the fighter because he has a wolf animal companion to fight alongside himself as well?
A few people answering OP's question, and a lot of people waving their dicks.
You disappoint me, /tg/.
So what do you think the maximum power a player character should have relative to the setting "mr. Troll".
>>44352831
>must due
And only a guide will tell you that. The first time wizard will not know that.
>>44352833
>blah blah blah no source
Not surprising.
>Now you're just admitting you don't have an argument.
Sure. I'm the dishonest one. Whatever makes you feel better.
>>44352850
why? that's all /tg/ has ever been
>>44352864
I don't think that's a relevant question in the genre.
I think people should have fun and not try to make munchkins.
Like i said, i've never played with dickbags, so none of these issues have ever happened to me in over 20 years of play in various systems.
Get better friends. Or maybe it's just your ADHD generation that's to blame.
>>44352867
Ok, so people are only capable of discerning good spells because of a guide? And only take spells like invisibility & fly when minmaxing, because they can never be in flavor.
>Sure. I'm the dishonest one. Whatever makes you feel better.
You're just discounting anything I say m8. You're going to do it with what I'm trying right now, likely with another "blah blah blah".
>Not surprising.
See the thing is you say that online sources don't count because those are all minmaxers. What kind of source would you accept?the answer is none because you're a troll
>>44352867
Please take me to your group so I can show them how to play properly and not be bogged down by incessant whining of "power gaming min-maxers" every time someone takes a feat that helps them or maxes out a vital skill rank.
This entire thread is pic related
Also, thank based troll for bringing me such wonderful b8 images
You know, arguing about whether choosing to not play a Monk is video-gamer-minmax-bullshit or not is kinda pointless, since the very system we're discussing (PF is 3.5, remember?) already provides a class that has basically the exact same flavour but better mechanics. So all of you can just get along now, you hear? You can play a kung-fu master AND be a decent combatant! Its okay! Relax!
>>44352918
>Ok, so people are only capable of discerning good spells because of a guide? And only take spells like invisibility & fly when minmaxing, because they can never be in flavor.
There's a lot of different characters. One of the guys i knew who played a wizard had a fear of heights as part of his backstory. I bet you could make one who got stuck invisible once somehow and couldn't get back to normal because everyone thought he was a ghost, and so never uses the spell because PTSD.
>You're just discounting anything I say m8. You're going to do it with what I'm trying right now, likely with another "blah blah blah".
Ok.
>See the thing is you say that online sources don't count because those are all minmaxers. What kind of source would you accept? the answer is none because you're a troll
Ok.
>>44352919
>play properly.
Ah, people with their false grand narratives. How they hurt themselves and those around them in seeking truths and ideals that don't exist.
>>44352893
Wanting a game to be balanced doesn't mean you play with terrible people. It means you want a better game. I've never had the problem of people being invalidated in game, but it required the game to bend. D&D has this problem, and this is why I have moved away from it largely.
m8, I don't think you've played for 20 years. I'd be surprised if you've been playing for more than 2, because only someone new to this hobby, or has never played in a group who wasn't entirely made out of friends, would claim that because a system doesn't HAVE to be grating means it shouldn't be improved.
Because literally, you're doing the bucket with a hole fairy tale. The man takes twice as many trips with the bucket with the hole, because it works. Sure it takes some work, but it works and no one minds he takes twice as much time. Because he doesn't mind he has a leaky bucket.
Hell, I don't care about him using it. My problem is when I use the leaky bucket.
>>44352943
Yep, Warpriest Sacred Fist is awesome.
>>44352867
Look at this faggot, HURR HURR I ONLY PLAY INTERACTIVE STORY TELLING BECAUSE IM A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE as apposed to what table top has been for millenia a strategy game, whether it be through building a character that is both effective and fun to moving armies across plains.
>>44352993
How would balanced classes make the story told with them better, exactly?
>>44352973
>Okay I want to put max ranks in stealth since I'm a rogue
>YOU MIN-MAXER YOU NEED TO SUCK AT THE GAME TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE
This is literally what you sound like to every single person in this thread, sans you.
>>44352620
>The wizard would then... scry, using his high intelligence score to realize they should scry.
>"I know, I will use my vast divination abilities to determine how best to retrieve this information."
>Ok Fred, what did you discover.
>"My divinings have revealed...I should have just used my vast divination abilities to get the information right now."
>Ok, you should go ahead and do that then.
>"....that was actually my last divination spell for today."
That's actually hilarious.
>>44352893
>Like i said, i've never played with dickbags, so none of these issues have ever happened to me in over 20 years of play in various systems.
[citation needed]
You're just making claims with no source m8.
>>44352973
>
There's a lot of different characters. One of the guys i knew who played a wizard had a fear of heights as part of his backstory. I bet you could make one who got stuck invisible once somehow and couldn't get back to normal because everyone thought he was a ghost, and so never uses the spell because PTSD.
The thing is, any one of those spells is a problem. Unless he has a fear of heights/invisibility/scrying all at the same time there is a problem here. Any one of those spells and numerous others are a problem. You can't be afraid of everything.
> Ok
yup
>>44353027
Because instead of "The Wizard resolved everything, then ate a sandwich and napped" you have "The party banded together against impossible odds and triumphed."
>>44353017
My, you're quite upset.
>strategy game
MFW
>>44353050
No, because if they're all balanced they all have the same powers. So whatever problem they face is monopolized by the person with the highest initiative.
>>44353055
>not knowing early D&D was a meatgrinder with very little roleplaying
>20 years
>>44353076
I don't think you know what words mean.
>>44353027
Because you don't need to use meta reasoning as to why someone who could do the job better isn't doing it, as discussed above. If everyone is good at what they do, the best in the party at their specialization, it helps the narrative because you don't need to use meta-justification as to why certain people perform certain tasks, or contrived narrative to make certain people relevant.
People in this thread have professed to punishing people for using certain spells. That breaks immersions.
Others have said they let someone who had less of a chance than them try to task to let them shine, despite being a life or death situation. That breaks immersion.
I want the story to make internal sense, so everyone can contribute mechanically to the narrative. Because you can't simply roleplay everything, unless you're playing freeform, and if you're playing freeform then I really don't care that you're playing a monk or a wizard.
>>44353055
Actually im rather amused at your the how the size of your faggotry defies category.
>>44353076
That's not what balance means.
Marking the thread with this post so I know when the thread became irredeemable.
>>44353028
That so?
>>44353031
See? Fun!
>>44353045
>[citation needed]
What are you asking for exactly? Some physical record of 20 years of gaming? We lad, you are emotionally compromised.
>You can't be afraid of everything.
Nor can you know every spell.
>>44353117
Thing is, you only have to know one of those spells.
>>44353076
You don't know what the world balance means. Balanced doesn't mean homogenized. Balance is everyone having equally relative specialities and contributions.
It's everyone being a piece of the pie, not everyone being smaller pies.
>>44353109
>>44353108
>>44353102
Blah blah blah.
>>44353105
I'm not responsible for your unreasonable demands for life. The world does not revolve around you.
>>44353131
>Balance is everyone having equally relative specialities and contributions.
Elaborate. Give us an example. God knows you people are full of it.
Let me check
>MAD as fuck
>Hits like shit
>Defends like shit
>Not many skill points
>Meaningless features that are worse than 0 level spells
Can anyone tell me why would someone play a monk instead of, I dunno, an unarmed barbarian?
>>44353138
Christ, this is entertaining, please tell me you have a tumblr.
>>44353159
Oh my bad, i meant to say "full of them". I wonder how i could have made such a mistake?
>>44353117
>What are you asking for exactly? Some physical record of 20 years of gaming? We lad, you are emotionally compromised.
See, because that's what you asked me for and dismissed what I said. We're in the same boat.
>Nor can you know every spell.
Yes, the problem is knowing 1 of those spells potentially invalidates a character. Invisibility essentially invalidates the stealth skill for people without magic.
Several divination spells invalidate any form of espionage.
Fabricate invalidates crafting.
Detect traps/detect secret doors invalidate large parts of perception and class features of other classes.
Fickle winds invalidates ranged combat.
Fly invalidates obstacles that do not ALSO fly.
I could keep going, the list is enormous. The problem is because the list is so huge. You need game knowledge to avoid all of these spells. Someone new will hit at least one of them eventually, if not more.
How did that communist manifesto taste in primary school?
>>44353170
Yeah i use it to roll the dice on my sacred fist warpriest's flurry of blows.
>>44353159
Ever play 4e? It's actually a good version of dnd, unlike 3.pf.
>>44353189
I guess you should play another game then.
Crying about it won't fix it, but you've heard that before.
>>44353196
Har har
>>44353159
A lot of games move towards it. Eclipse Phase and L5R both (unless two people specialize in the same thing) have it so you will be the best at what you do and each member will have some contribution to an overall party competence.
Shadowrun to a lesser extent. Cthulhutech certainly does (excluding civilians since they're meant to be a separate campaign style). Fate, as long as two indivudals don't carbon copy each other's characters.GRUPS
And more!
>>44353231
>A lot of games move towards it. Eclipse Phase and L5R both (unless two people specialize in the same thing) have it so you will be the best at what you do and each member will have some contribution to an overall party competence.
What a convenient meta-game mechanic. Outside of the military, how many groups of people do you think are perfectly segmented like that?
It's not very realistic.
>>44353213
That's why I've said I've largely moved away from D&Dor play less broken editions or ban certain things from the editions that are broken
>>44353255
Well that's a lot more mature than contributing to 182 shitposts.
>>44353251
>What a convenient meta-game mechanic. Outside of the military, how many groups of people do you think are perfectly segmented like that?
>It's not very realistic.
And D&D classes are?
>>44353251
>It's not very realistic.
Actually it makes a good deal of sense. Look at most start ups when they begin. You never hire a second WebDev. Why? Because you don't need two because one will invalidate the other. You also don't hide a second back end sql dev, or the same reason.
Most small organizations prune redundant skills to streamline. It's only when organizations grow that redundancies begin as one person is unable to handle the entire load of work.
Any organized group does this. Like a... oh what was it called? Adventuring party!
>>44353299
Neither realistic nor balanced. Just as you'd expect in a fantasy roleplaying tabletop game.
>>44353231
Like I said, HURR HURR, MY INTER ACTIVE STORY IS SO MUCH MORE ADVANCED AND PERFECT THAN YOUR SILLY SYSTEMS, WITH RULES AND COMBAT AND SITUATIONS THAT I ACTUALLY CANT REPLICATE BY LEAVING THE LAIR THAT IS MY ROOM.
*tips the mountain of fedoras with the force of a thousand suns.
>>44353302
Two webdevs can do the same job as one in half the time, if properly coordinated.
>>44353327
Sou ka?
>>44353327
I don't even know how you're trying to make me angry now, your post isn't even coherent.inb4 he tells me to get reading comprehension
>>44353331
Have you ever been a part of a start up? You would only hire the two of them when you needed it to be done in half the time, and in that case it would fall under the second half of my statement saying when one can't handle the entire workload. Generally this is not a thing in small startups. Specialization is how they operate.
>>44350365
You can play a monk in 3.5 and PF and kick ass. Only one thing. It's not actually going to be the monk class. It's going to be a tier 1 class.
You are going to pick up a monk's belt, or something similar. You are going to figure out how to get spells that boost your Unarmed attack, and you are going to use that.
It can be a psionic/divine/arcane character. Just play it straight as like a buddhist/Taoist/Hindu Adherent, and their powers just as mantras.
Dress them up in robes and prayer beads, and voila.
Wizard = Brahmin scholar
Druid = Daoist sage
Cleric = well...Cleric.
Psion = Arhat/Buddhist monk
TAKE THEIR POWERS AND USE THEM TO PUNCH HARDER
>>44353355
Im calling you a theater faggot who makes social campaigns that replicate a romanticised version of every day chatter because you have reached the level of autism that means you cnat look at people without sperging.
>>44353413
we'ew lad.
>>44353413
Wait what? How did you get that out of me advocated for L5R, Eclipse Phase, and GURPS? Those are all very mechanical systems, not narrativist ones. The only narrativist one I suggested was FATE.
>>44351395
Here we have in the wild a stormwind fallacy and an ad hominem attack.
hmmm...
>>44353480
I got that out of uour previous responces that make you seem like a communist in how you play.
>20 year experience
I doubt your even 20 m8
>>44353514
Words can't hurt me.
I've legitimately forgotten who's arguing for which side by this point.
>>44353544
It's "you're"
>>44351395
Excuse me for not making my own space and having a character who plays the way i wish to play him, and not inching forward so as not to brush his toes.
>>44353544
Wait what? I was the one replying to the guy he has 20 years of experience and calling him out. The fuck are you talking about?
What, what do you think I'm advocating for?
>>44350386
>Pathfinder
>in which Monks literally don't work according to RAW
>>44353548
Oh, but the retaliation speaks otherwise. Because even if you were a troll, something got under your skin, causing you to balloon int this much of a faggot.
>>44353548
And yet you chose to respond with that.
>>44353603
Sorry then mang. It is an anonymous image board.
People in this thread are arguing over nothing. Like, you could literally play your way on the same table and neither of you would give a shit, but you are on 4chan so you must fight over it?
>BALANCE MATTERS
>NO IT DOESN'T
>NUH-UH!
>UH-HUH!
Here's my plan for both you faggots: the guy who likes the Monk class can continue to play it if he wants to so much, and the other guy will play something else, like a cleric! Gosh, was that so hard?
>>44353633
That so?
>>44353659
It's what they told me growing up. I know your generation got ruined with other shit.
>>44353567
ah yes the "6th grade" of attacking ones arguement.
>>44353666
I know right? All i did was suggest a class.
>>44353687
What im saying is that i refuse to believe that anyone can be this autistic and retarded without provocation
>>44353693
"One's"
Grammer matters.
>>44353744
As to throw a shitfit over someone advocating a class? I know right.
>>44353701
At this point, its about making the troll dance.
The Stalker class from Path of War is what the Monk should have been.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker
>>44353768
I havent saed a dam thig form teh beginan of da thred aboot dem mooks.
>>44353302
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH HOLY SHIT
THIS GUY HAS NO IDEA HOW A PROGRAMMING TEAM WORKS OR WHAT REVISION CONTROL SYSTEMS ARE
PLEASE POST MORE I LOVE YOU
>>44353807
Im sure that image was from your "personal" collection.
>>44353807
>Capslock is still cruise control for cool rite gais?
>OPs face at the end of this
>>44353844
I'm sorry I just couldn't control myself it was so unbelievably hilarious
Between that and the one guy saying monks are completely fine and pathfinder did nothing wrong, this thread is a gold mine
>>44353911
>ITT
>>44352850
Clearly I made an error mentioning pathfinder at all. During winter break no less.
I did get some PDFs and recommendations to mull over, so it all turned out okay.
>>44350732
Yeah, bullshit.
"Ok" is the much more laconic reply, which is what the original Japanese obviously intends. The literal translation of "That So?" is antagonizing in English.
When translating, it is more important (and difficult) to translate tone and intention than literal word for word translation. For example, you might find the following phrase in a literal translation from a sentence in Arabic:
Until now, the Army has won no major victories.
In English, this implies that the Army has just won a major victory, but in arabic, the literal phrase "Until now" does not carry that implication, and as such, it is better to leave it out entirely. In order to be a good translator, you must not just understand the words like a dictionary, you must understand their implication in context.
I hope that has enlightened you, friend :)
>>44351400
Maybe you should stop playing with a group of minmaxers in games where combat is the only focus and you compete for how much damage you can do.
>Excusing bad design with "Well I made it work/had fun with it" is retarded.
What's more retarded is assuming bad design without considering other people might not have the same objectives as you.
Unchained Monk,Brawlers, Path of War Stakers and Steefist Commandos, Deadly Fist Soulknives, and Psychic Warriors all make good Monk characters.
The best part is you aren't forced into "bald lawful man in pajamas either" with all but the First option either. So you can be a street fighter, an Akuma like figure, a gladiator, or anything else you can imagine.
>>44353911
Pretty much.
I also didn't know there was another kung-fu class in 3.5, that will be attractive to my group, thou I will show them the other suggestions too.
>>44354153
Looks promising!
>>44354065
>and noncombat abilities are inferior
Reading dude.
And the individual's objectives for a class is heavily influenced by how the class is advertised. No one bitches that the commoner is a shitty class; it's a fucking commoner class and we all know it's not meant to go toe-to-toe with, well, anything else in the book. The monk, however, is advertised as being an effective combatant that punishes enemies with awesome kungfu moves like in the movies and does flips n' shit. There is a huge gap between the advertised monk (a badass bare-knuckle master of karate) and how the monk actually plays (can't fight). This applies to out-of-combat stuff too; kung fu monks are supposed to be capable of superhuman physical feats and dispensers of wisdom. While I'm not faulting the monk class on the wisdom dispensing aspect (that's 100% on the player), it drops the ball on superhuman physical feats beyond running away quickly and good saves. The monk's out of combat utility does not match expectations (though that's also a fault of the shitty skill system).
I prefer the turn-of-the-century boxer Victorian boxer flavour of monk myself.
I rolled an arrogant young monk with fiery red hair paired with leprechaun-style mutton chops named Sullivan who was sent away by his order on a "quest" to discover humility. The real reason was because he was annoying, flunked all his classes and was terrible at dedicating himself to the philosophies of his order and they secretly hoped he would get himself killed or at the very least never come back. He ended up boxing adventurers nightly in a tavern for scraps before our fledgling party discovered him and he wormed his way in on their gig.
>>44354336
If your Monk isn't capable of contributing in combat that's on the GM not you.
>>44354042
>The literal translation of "That So?" is antagonizing in English
Oh yeah that doesn't fit saitama's character AT ALL.
>>44354065
>party gets quest
>no social skills to deal with NPCs
>no skills to make travel safer
>arrive at a dungeon
>can't help find entrance
>can't help unlock door
>can't scout for traps
>attacked by monsters
>no knowledge to discern any weaknesses
>engage in combat
>can't hit anything
>finally land a hit for insignificant damage
>get hit with AoE
>get in party's way
>must hide behind party before dying
>sit there and watch everyone else have fun
>party sacrifices themselves to protect me
>we all die
>reroll new characters
>start up new game
>same shit happens
>party abandons me in-game
>party abandons me in real life
Yeah, being useless sounds fun as fuck.
>>44354568
wew lad that's some massive projection and security issues you've got there.
Did mom threaten to leave you at the store one too many times?
>>44354595
My mom abandoned me once at a JC Penny. I watched one kid get a piggy back ride by their dad. I saw another kid get a cool new T-shirt. I saw a dude with a fat wallet impress a cashier. I asked the nearest lady, "What can I do?" And she bent down and said, "Nothing, you're a monk. Play a real class next time." Then she tripped me and dropped a shirt rack on top of me.
>>44354564
We're translating a conversation, not a character, friend. Evidently translation isn't your strong point, but do your best!
>>44354768
Being a monk truly is suffering
>>44354551
In the case of PF its actually on the system.
>okay you can use point buy, you can have these weapons and you can RP however you want
>Alright I've made a monk, I main stated DEX and WIS since that seems to be what they use, but everything else is average
>can't impress NPCs with CHA (thou I can try to scare them and they can't lie to me)
>but hey, all that wisdom makes me slightly harder to hit, that's helpful right?
>DEX doesn't actually help my damage output
>I can 'attempt' to stun something once a day
>the cool bonus feat about throwing things actually isn't useful and just pisses off the locals
>best viable option to get anything done is now to use my high perception skill to just follow people around and see what they are doing: which involves a lot of waiting, and I don't have stealth or disguise as class skills: so they can find me.
Suffering no matter how you want to play.
>>44355057
Stealth is actually a class skill for PF Monks
That still doesn't make them very good though
>>44355240
You still wind up with the best option being to act like a shitty rogue / ninja, sneaking around after people, spying on them, and waiting until they are alone to try and question them, or hoping you can maybe stun them because you won't be able to deal enough damage to KO them before they can flee or shout.
>>44355351
Speaking of Ninjas, just be one of those instead of being a Monk
It's actually possible to make a functional monk in PF but it requires a fair bit of system mastery. Monks are 100% better off in PF than they were in 3e/3.5e, but they've got nowhere near the built-in effectiveness of 4e.
There is also, insanely, a viable Paladin/Monk combination prestige class (which can be built in one of two ways). I actually refuse to believe this is anything other than a happy accident because it's so contrary to how those two classes are treated in general by PF rules and PF devs. But the Champion of the Enlightened is a fairly strong option if you can build it right and the idea floats your boat.
>>44350729
Legends of Wulin is seriously fun in general. Would definitely recommend to anyone who hasn't played at least a one shot.
4e was a good system because no matter what you chose, your character was just as viable as everyone else in the party.
But people think their fluff is shackled to the book for some inane reason.
>>44355405
but ninjas don't punch and kick people..
>>44354784
A character had the conversation, guy. He was being dismissive of boros. He did so the entire fucking episode and the next, buddy.
>>44354472
You, you're good you.
>>44355524
>>44354784
Honestly "Is that so?" may be condescending and dismissive, but its also wordy and more often used in a situation where you are both sitting down and talking, having plenty of time to express yourselves.
"Okay" is much quicker to say, and still carries the same dismissive and uninvested undertones.
"Sure thing" could have been used as well, but carries a slightly more aggressive undertone, thus implying an investment on an emotional level.
And let's be honest, if you didn't care about something, you'd use the fastest possible acknowledgement required.
>>44355516
As it turns out, neither do PF monks
>>44355616
Doesn't change the fact that if he wanted to say "Ok" he would have said a dismissive "Hai" and not souka.
>>44355718
Maybe "I see" would have been a better translation? It's rather noncommittal, but can be taken as antagonistic.
>>44351277
I thought about doing what Fantasycraft does with Martial Arts or what 5e does, in that they can use the higher or WIS or DEX for their damage or something instead of strength for damage and to hit bonus.
>not being a asshole monk searching for worthy foes to crush
Hoo boy, what a shit thread. Some baits work every time.
Anyhow OP, add another vote for 4e monk. You can easilly go full bender or hokuto no ken atatatatata without much effort, and the mechanics are particularly engaging.
