What features might an artifact greatbow designed for the ultimate sniper have? I was thinking a spike on one end to stab into the ground for better stability and also so it can be used as a spear in close range. Anything else?

>>44288565
Is the group made of fa/tg/uys or those with background on mathematics? Nope, it is simple. Else? Yeah, it might as well be rocket science.

Ok, it's not THAT bad, but those people would rather have a simple character creation and trade off some power than having to deal with 300+ XP to create a character. That's worse than GURPS.

>>44288900
Too bad it is literally impossible to use BP as an advancement mechanic.

Is sorcery actually viable this edition, or is it stupid garbage like all the other editions? If it's viable, what sort of build is appropriate?

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>>44288880
Not sure about ultimate sniper, but you can take some inspiration from Simon'sBowblade from Bloodborne. It's basically a bow that can be disassembled and one of it's ends can serve as a curved blade.

I'm not sure if your ST allows for that, given it literally nullifies the only disadventage a bow really has, but I know I would.

>>44288946
It's stellar this time around, definitely a highlight of 3e. It offers amazing flexibility and immediate rewards and allows for some really crazy stuff.

You can go completely wild with it and build your character entirely around it, taking almost entirelly spells and some Occult Charms that help it and be very effective.

Otherwise it's amazing for dipping in. It's encouraged for any character to really have it, because the costs are miniscule. All it really takes is 3 dots of Occult and offers crazy benefits.

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>>44288880

>What features might an artifact greatbow designed for the ultimate sniper have?

The ability to fire at medium+ range without needing an aim action.

>>44288975

I've brought this up before, usually posting pic related as well, but there was a Hidden Dagger Axe in the leak and the previous edition had the Ultimately Useful Tube, both of which had multiple modes. Seeming that the Dagger Axe was worth four dots, would it be best to have all such trick weapons at at least the same due to the advantages they give in the same way that Silk Armour is similarly priced?

>>44288946
Depends on what you want to do. With sorcerous workings, sorcery is basically a Swiss army knife - want your house to fly? Working. Want an immortal four-armed war goddess to watch over your city state? Working. Everyone in a hundred-mile radius finds themselves morphed into the ideal citizens of your magical realm? Sorcerous. Working.

If you want sorcery to replace combat or social Charms, though, then you're still not going to be happy.

>If it's viable, what sort of build is appropriate?

Occult 5, Int 5, Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. Supernal Control Method (Occult 5, Ess 1 Charm) is probably a good pick-up too if you intend to use sorcery frequently in high-stress situations.

>>44289077
Honestly, I would just make it an entry-level Evocation for such a weapon to switch between modes, if at all.

Anyone got a 3e character sheet for google spreadsheets?

>>44289077
>The ability to fire at medium+ range without needing an aim action.
Wouldn't that break the ranged combat balance though? Maybe a first evocation of something like:

Cost: 2m
Type: Supplemental
When aiming the character gains the benefit of aiming an additional time.

You'd still need to make an aim action to shoot at medium+, but you'd gain the bonus dice from it.

>>44289132
Is there any real reason to be a Twilight sorcerer as compared to, say, a Night sorcerer?

>>44289877

Not really. All you need is to favour it in order to get the reduced price on spells.

Fuck me, I'm an idiot. Did anybody save that social mechanics cheat sheet from a few threads back? Because I don't think I did.

>>44289931
>>44289877

DEMON FAMILIARS.

Reason enough to be a Twilight Sorcerer over a regular one.

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>>44289940
I gotcha covered, anon.

>>44290011
Thanks.

>>44288565
Source of this good pic, you punk.

>>44290002
And if you go Supernal Occult there's a charm that grabs you motes you can pump into sorcery.

But I do think it's interesting that Solars are so effective at Sorcery with nothing but three skill points (no BP needed) and a single Essence 1 charm. I wonder if the other Exalted will be less effective at Sorcery, or whether "Solars are the masters of Sorcery" will be limited to Essence 5.

>>44290239

I wouldn't be shocked if other Exalts get more directly-interactive Sorcery Charms, like the Lunar Shaman antagonist.

Boosting Terrestrial/Celestial Sorcery isn't as big of a deal as making Solar Circle Sorcery even more effective, after all.

>>44290239
Spirit-Drawing Oculus?

>>44289877
Twilight ability to turn summoned Demons into familiar. And the ablity to teleport to their damasne. And their ability to protect themsevles from damage without having to invest into combat.

Their Caste specials are basically tailored to maximize the benefits of sorcery while minimazing it's downsides.

>>44290350
>>44290239
Well, they DID say that there is going to be sorcerous charms in the Paths of Brigid book, once it comes out whenever that is. Hopefully its actually going to be Spring 2016, like they have promised. No sign of it in the Monday Meeting notes thus far, tho.

It also says that it will have sorcerous rituals, do you reckon they meant just more spells that are rituals or actually a new and distinct thing? Maybe thats how alchemy and such are going to be in this edition?

Are there any examples of fertility gods in Exalted? I'm trying to think of how one would play the protection racket game that a lot of gods do in this fallen era. My current thought would be to curse people who are too poor to provide for more kids with increased fertility (so they give birth to triplets) if they don't pray.

>>44291429
Pretty sure Venus has a crapload of gods under her that serve that purpose.

>>44288565
I don't tend to follow these threads, but I love the art you keep posting of fancy girls, it's even given me some inspiration for characters. If you have a folder or something, mind posting?

What day is the winter solstice on in creation? In certain ancient cultures it was apparently a day of celebration, the days getting shorter, darker and colder when suddenly the opposite starts happening is apparently where the name unconquered sun came from in real life.

You may be looking for Calibration, the 5 "day" period between each year where the sky is pitch black and basically everyone is on vacation.

What do gods/ifrits/demons/etc get out of teaching a sorcerer?

>>44293312
A valuable servant and ally, usually.

>>44293073
>>44293164
Nah, Creation definitely has solstices separate from Calibration, and they're presumably at the midpoints between the middle of summer (the height of Resplendent Fire) and the middle of winter (the height of Resplendent Air, I think?)

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I kind of want to make a character that is a kung fu badass that uses Buddha's Palm style MA. This doesn't exist. So... I was thinking about taking tiger style, and thrown, and reflavoring thrown as and force projections. I was thinking about making an artifact gem that would sit in his brow and focus his power, and maybe that would let me spend 1 or 2m to do the force projections with the stats of an artifact throwing weapon, and maybe a light artifact for his MA attack. Is there ANY reason this would upset the balance of the game or not work?

>>44293663

Pick up Tiger Style, grab a Hearthstone Circlet, take the Candent Carbuncle Hearthstone and learn Incandescent Lance. Boom. Done.

Also, 2m for a ranged attack based in Melee, Thrown, or MA is really cheap. In fact you can check the archives to see why such things are a Big Deal and need to be priced appropriately.

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>>44293970
I left out that the artifact gem was a 5dot. I thought spending 2m to essentially generate an essence throwing needle that uses artifact stats was an acceptable cost. In this case the throwing needle is a force palm though. I was basing my thinking on wise arrow, which is 1 mote to generate an arrow.

What are the most unique Solar concepts you've had in one of your games?

>>44294442

I've been at this long enough that both assumptions played straight ("SOLARS STRONK" "BEST IN THE WORLD AT [X]" "BOMBASTIC LUCHASTRONGMAN") and completely inverted have become old-hat, so I'd have to go into some weird shit to count as unique to me.

Like a Solar with really deeply nuanced opinions about the Realm and Exalts and how it's all supposed to fit together, rather than a simplistic hierarchy.

Kinky shit, bruh.

When you win a rush, do move then or have to wait until they move?
The automatic moving after they move thing, does that just happen the first time or is it continuous?

>>44295590
>When you win a rush, do move then or have to wait until they move?
The latter. Succeeding at a disengage action automatically moves you back, and then also moves you back again if they move towards you, but succeeding at a rush action only does the latter.
>The automatic moving after they move thing, does that just happen the first time or is it continuous?
As written, it's continuously until the character's next turn, but I'd check the final PDF when it comes out, since it might have been intended to be once/turn like disengages.

>>44295643
What's the benefit of rush then?
Get to use a reflexive move to get into short range, then use up your turn to move closer right after they move away?
Then you'd need to use another reflexive move to get within close and attack?

Are there any basic charms that help you get closer faster or keep chasing them?

>>44295741
>What's the benefit of rush then?
>Get to use a reflexive move to get into short range, then use up your turn to move closer right after they move away?
>Then you'd need to use another reflexive move to get within close and attack?
Yes. As opposed to not being able to attack at all, because without the rush action, they'd be at medium range at the start of your turn.

With rush:
You're at short, they move back, you move to follow, your next turn you move to close and attack.

Without rush:
You're at short, they move back, your next turn you move to short again.

>Are there any basic charms that help you get closer faster or keep chasing them?
Athletics has a whole tree for making rushes stronger and reach further.

Can I combine Thunderbolt Attack Prana and Leaping Tiger Attack if they're within short range?

>>44296273
read the fucking charms.

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>>44296273
>>44296376
"Leaping Tiger Attack is explicitly allowed to be used in combination with the Charms of other Abilities, but is incompatible with Thunderbolt Attack Prana and Eagle-Wing Style.

does falling hammer strike just make your 1 onslaught penalty last an extra turn, or does it keep all your onslaughts on them going until he avoids for 1 round?

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>>44296670
It's supplemental, so it only applies to the attack you enhance with it. However, you can supplement each attack you make in a round, so you can use Hammer on Iron Technique + Falling Hammer Strike to inflict a -5 DV on someone.

>>44296670
The onslaught stacks.
>The Solar lunges at her target with a vicious left, enhanced by Falling Hammer Strike. On the next round, he attacks first, but his Defense doesn’t refresh. She uses the Charm again, and snaps his head back with a shattering uppercut. For this attack, his Defense is still at -1. Because she used the Charm twice consecutively, he will be at -2 Defense on her next attack.

>>44288880

stabbing it into the ground would mess it up really bad.
The bow needs the flex to have power and accuracy, stabbing it into the ground or even resting it on something would take away half the power and probably pull the riser either down to point at the ground in front or upward to shoot over your targets head.
you could have a stabilizer jutting from the front of it that could be used like a bayonet,
or spikes on the ends to fight with, although the whole point to a bow is that it bends which would make stabbing things a fair bit harder.

Honestly there isn't much you can do to a bow that hasn't already been done, look at olympic bows and you'll probably see the pinnacle of making a bow more accurate, also remember that while compound is more accurate, recurve has a higher impact.

I'm going to be a player in a game soon and know the mechanics fairly well, but my questions is how good is archery/Dodge combo? My concern is that once they get in your face getting them away is going to be next to impossible.

>>44288975

a bow blade is such a silly idea, metal just plain doesn't bend that way, you'd either have a broken sword and a really shitty bow or a really bent ass sword and a really shitty bow.

Both objects are better at what you want them to do when they do it on there own, combining them just makes them both suck.
I like Bacon and hovercrafts, but I'm happy eating bacon on a hovercraft, I don't need a half bacon, half hovercraft clusterfuck trying to change from a seafaring vessel into a breakfast meat.
Keep em separated.

What about arrow-knives?

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>>44296978
You'll probably want some Resistance anyway because unlike 2e, Dodge can't stop you from being hit all the time. Leaping Dodge Technique, however, should go a pretty long way toward keeping people out of your face.

>>44293164
5 Days Darkness?
Neh.
I'm pretty sure there is no creepy child stealing and eating monster holiday which has turned into giving presents holiday?

Would a Working that determines whether a tree falling in a forest without anything observing it makes noise be Celestial 3?

>>44297558
A single tree? Terrestrial 3

>>44297024
>I like Bacon and hovercrafts, but I'm happy eating bacon on a hovercraft, I don't need a half bacon, half hovercraft clusterfuck trying to change from a seafaring vessel into a breakfast meat.
Don't yo be dissin' da Baconcraft, nigga.

You know Lord Zedd could work rather well as the Fetich soul of a Primordial, with Serpentera as the World Jouten.

Yes you heard that right; Serpentera is a flying World Jouten with the ability to destroy any other Primordial in its entirety, good thing it is totally out of it and most of it has been eaten by the Wyld then.

Anyone try out playing any support characters? I'm normally play those sorts of characters, but I could not resist the urge to swing a giant sword this time around and went melee. Is the defend-other and counterattacking melee build as good as it looks? Tyrant-lizards with supernal survival buffs? The lore mote and wp machine?

It looks like you could make a really mean social monster with integrity supernal and the charm that makes them completely invulnerable. Anyone tried that out?

/exg/ do you think it's feasible to dabble in sorcery with Inelligence 2 and Occult 3? I want to have it, but I can't squeaze any more dots for attributes.

>>44298430
As long as you're not panning to use it under pressure, eg. in combat then sure. You can still cast spells and complete workings, it'll just take longer and require less finesse.

>>44298332
On a whim I tried building a Crane stylist with Lore Charms that tarnsfer wounds and Resistance Charms to have a high health-pool. In theory it could actually work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxDQh_-vJss
What would be the best way to make Ultron in Exalted that ISN'T an Alchie?

Star-Shining Chipped Behemoth Style:

Student's Sutra of Safety:

Once, there was a maiden...
...who was terribly wronged,
And her kin were in ruins.
So she sold her house
And clad herself in finest armours,
Yet did not feel safe.
She seduced an armorsmith,
and put him to toil,
Yet did not feel safe.
She bought luck and traded freedom.
Yet did not feel safe.
"I must save myself", she said.

Elder Sutra of Safety:
So she dug out a great pit, and lined the walls with her ribs.
She cured her flesh to charcoal, and fired the pit.
She boiled her blood to iron,
And struck it into a blade
with a hammer of bone.
She quenched it in her tears, and sharpened it on her spine.

As the blade entered her enemy's heart,
"I'm safe now," — it whispered.

Effervescent Black Mantle of Regret Style:

Student's Sutra of Regret:

Once, there was a maiden...
...with a heart full of sorrow.
She took up a pen
And splashed herself on the page. It did not help.
She took up a sword
And chattered herself across the battlefield. It did not help.
She drank and drank
And wed herself to a bottle. It did not help.
She walked in aimless circles,
And tried to leave herself behind. It did not help.

Elder Sutra of Regret:

Her patience ran thin and she tore out her heart,
Leaving a nagging sore.
"You cannot escape what is not chasing you," - she said.

>>44298588
>>44298593
What?

Unnamed Divine Mask Style:

Student's Sutra of Identity:

Once there was a maiden...
...whose name was known to no one,
Not even herself.
Beset from all sides
By the just and the wicked,
She gripped the trident,
And looked through spikes with a regal air.
She danced,
and she sang amidst marble
and she tired of being unknown.

Elder Sutra of Nomenclature:

So she brought down the haft,
And the pavement broke.
The maiden was delighted
When her name seeped in the cracks.
"To exist is to be named," - she said.

>>44298600
Again, what?

>>44298596
Just throwing shit here, maybe someone would use it for something. Also bumping the thread, for it seemed flagging for me.

>>44298480
Sounds like a good bodyguard build. Supernal MA or Lore?

>>44298585
The product of a sorcerous working got wrong springs immediately to mind. Might also make a decent liminal, if you're willing to trade the robot motif for frankenstein,

>>44298664
>The product of a sorcerous working got wrong springs immediately to mind.
I like it, make JARVIS a Spirit bound to the Manse and that checks out. especially with the 'Sorry I had to kill the other guy.' thing.

>>44288565
Do we know what order the books are coming out in? I know Dragon Blooded is next, and I assume Exigent is last, seeing as they are the snowflake faction.

>>44298983
You'd be wrong in that assumption. The devs have said that Exigents come after Dragonblood, to give all the Alchemical and Infernal fans tools to custom build their splats before their books come sometime during the next ice age.

After that, it's a mystery! Though the devs have mentioned wanting to put out Abyssals and Liminals in the same year as a kinda undead theme. The Lunars fans will rant and rave until they get their book, so I expect it to come out sooner rather than later. All the new exalted types throws off the expected schedule, especially considering that there are exalt types that the Devs have not revealed yet.

>>44298983
Exigent is very soon, after DBs but before everyone else. They are neat.

>>44299033
>The Lunars fans will rant and rave until they get their book
Also afterwards. Even if it magically managed to satisfy a thousand interpretations of the Lunar themes, Lunar fans have too much inertia to stop whining now.

>>44298664
Lore. Not having reflexive counterattacks hurts, but the synergy between Iron Skin Concentration and Injury-Forcing Technique is better to have at the start. Yeah, you'd have to only be taking defend another actions until you hit Essence 2.

>>44299111
This is what you get when for two editions straight you refuse to define what Lunars ARE in concrte terms.

Hell, if they do it this time at least SOME people will be happy. But I fully expect them to try to pander to everybody and fuck up again.

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Oh my

>>44299762
Link?

>>44299762
This is old.

Little question: What would be appropriate ways for a mortal to address a Dynast/DB in the realm?

Like, what's the correct honorific?

>>44299762
To be completely fair to Holden, he is incompetent. So if he was to try and design the alternative to BPs/XP it would end up being bad. So maybe it's for the best he's not trying to design MORE broken things, I really much rather have someone competent do it. Like raccoon with a bucket on it's head.

>>44299803
Prince of the Earth.

>>44299803
Your Lordship/Ladyship is a nice safety net if you want generic.

What are some good reasons for a Dawn to master Sorcery?
I’m not really intending on making a Sorcerer so much as I’m making a Dawn who makes use of Sorcerous Workings and benefits from Shaping Rituals and merits (that I’m still working on.) I’ve heard from previous editions that making a sorcerer who uses spells in combat is a terrible idea; if you are lucky you’ll only fire off one spell before combat ends. And even then, you could do better with actual combat charms.

I’m planning on making a Dawn from Randan, someone who was on their way to becoming one of the pekumi master-crafters when they exalted as a Dawn. As a result from Randan’s founding story, I’m avoiding anything demonic.
Or should I just go with Thaumaturgy and forgo all this Sorcery mumbo-jumbo?

>>44299779
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548177#post19548177

>>44299033
>to give all the Alchemical and Infernal fans tools to custom build their splats before their books come sometime during the next ice age.

It'll help take the edge off while we hunker down in our realms of Brass and Shadow/Vitriol to wait out the winter.

>>44299941

Combat. In the first circle alone, Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and Wood Dragon Claws are powerful for what you can get at Ess1. Stormwind rider is useful in and out of combat as a flying mount and Death of Obsidian Butterflies is good against battlegroups. Workings can be used to make him more lethal via burning gazes, scorpions for blood, and other supernatural effects.

Sorcery in Ex3 is much improved over previous editions, such that you could easily build a character around it and fire off spells no problem. Thaumaturgy doesn't have any real support yet.

>>44299941
Nothing wrong with battle magic. Chucking phoenixes and butterflies at people can both be very effective options, especially if you're focused on a form of combat that doesn't give you ranged attacks. The butterfly option has a bonus to accuracy vs battlegroups, if you're playing a Dawn General.

>>44299815
>So if he was to try and design the alternative to BPs/XP it would end up being bad
"You get BP instead of XP" works fine though. You'll want to change a few other things too, to make sure everything's even in cost (1 point for first three dots of even non-favored, all Charms cost 4, etc) and probably get rid of the insane MA system that I think exists solely because of Solar XP siloing.

>>44299762
>>44299996

I think Korhal a few pages later summed it up: "I sympathize with your frustration in hearing the same arguments over and over, Holden, but tossing grenades into a [-] thread isn't gonna do anyone any favors."

I don't have a horse in this race but I'd probably be pretty fed up with the acrimonious sniping over XP/BP too if I were him.

>>44300098
>I don't have a horse in this race but I'd probably be pretty fed up with the acrimonious sniping over XP/BP too if I were him.
All he has to do is fucking fix it. It's a trivial problem, his dedication to keeping the retarded system that just adds to the number of 5/5/1 5/3/1 5/1/1 character builds is insane and fucking retarded. He deserves to be yelled at constantly until he fucking fixes it or gives an actual, valid explanation for it (he won't, because there isn't one).

>>44299941
There is no Solar who is not better off with the ability to conjure up swiss army elementals on a few hours notice

>>44300067
>>44300076
So a Battle Wizard is possible?
That's actually pretty neat. I heard about the Death Laser at the highest level.

>>44300134

Battle Wizard is possible. Be sure to play to your strengths, though. Brawlers and certain Martial Artists can make great use of WDC, and Invulnerable Skin of Bronze restricts the use of certain MA styles as well.

>>44300131

Dunno about that guy, but I'm sold.

Besides, I'd rather be Klaus Wulfenbach than Robert Baratheon.

>>44299941
Because she wants to?

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>>44300211
I think I read something about a person creating a Dawn with Sorcery and Martial Arts. Apparently Wood Dragon Claw, Tiger style and some stealthy MA really work well together.
They had a neat reason behind their character being raised by giant tigers.

>>44300127

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19548974#post19548974

Oh wait, look at that. An explanation. Let me guess anon, it doesn't count?

>>44300230
Well yeah, that's good enough for her but I need a reason as well for her to be a sorcerer.

>>44300320
Because it's awesome?

>>44300293
"You'll have enough power anyway to do what the character concept wants' and "Solars are high powered compared to the rest of the setting' isn't really good enough. The bar here is Solardom, not baseline mortal, and combat spec is going to wreck, no matter how well you splice it. You either optimize or you just give up. There isn't any middle ground. You can't flavour your way past 5-6 dice of difference.

Honestly, statistics for Exalts should have a baseline of 3, and give you extra heft if you intentionally make your character flawed. If the character doesn't have it high they'll probably won't invest much charm picks on it anyway, so why bother locking them out mechanically?

>>44300293
>We wanted a very adaptable and easy character creation set-up and a progressive advancement set-up, things which we didn't feel were one and the same and so needed to be different.
There is no explanation why he wants a "progressive" (I assume here he means triangular) advancement set-up. He has never given one because there is no good reason for it. BP/XP are not in character resources so they should conform to game balance and ease of use rather than "it should be harder to become a five dot than a two dot!" If it is not harder for me to be a master of the occult than a renaissance man with modest talent with blades, writing, historiography, piloting, and stealth at character creation, and there is no logical reason to make it harder to do after two years IC.

>man, while I can't stop you from doing build-from-XP, I am by no means going to encourage any Storyteller to do that to their players, that is cumbersome and intimidating as hell, and if you all already know you want it anyway, you can houserule it into place with trivial ease.
He seems to consider the only alternative to BP/XP is just pure XP (or locked arrays or other shit), rather than the far more obvious and simple alternative of pure BP, which is what my group uses and which works very well.

>tossed in advice in the character creation chapter detailing how to get the most bang-for-your-buck for the benefit of the number monkeys and the people who get hung up on math disparities.
This is an outright lie, there is no advice regarding BP/XP divide in the damn book. There is mention of BP/buying skills divide (so buy non-favored up to three before BP phase, etc), but that's right in the character creation chapter, next to the fucking table that would tell you as much, whereas the BP/XP divide is hidden way later in the book, since XP is in another chapter altogether.

>>44300293
You know, he mentions that "feel-over-course-of-play" was a concern, but isn't that a real problem with the current system? When I notice that I could really use an Attribute in the course of play, I'll feel really really shitty when I notice how much it would cost to get with xp and how much easier it would have been to get it at chargen.

>>44300371
>He seems to consider the only alternative to BP/XP is just pure XP (or locked arrays or other shit), rather than the far more obvious and simple alternative of pure BP, which is what my group uses and which works very well.
why not just get flat xp costs and keep everything else the same? That sounds much, much simpler

Holden is a opinionated bastard. What works for his game won't work for the majority of use cases. He'd be a lot more affable if he just went out and said; "Look, I started out as a freelancer mucking around with the toolset. Change what you like. This is the combination of changes that works well for my group and I feel would work for most everyone. But if you don't like it, change it." Then offer a outline of alternate systems and modular mechanics, then it'd go over much better.

But no. He's a fucking auteur who knows better than everyone. Hiding poser art behind his knickers.

>>44300080
I didn't say it cannot be done or that it cannot be done well. I said Holden can't do it well.

>>44300134
It is possible, definitely. One hurdle you might run into though- Combat Spells such as Briliant Raptor usually use Percpetion to caluculate dicepool and you need Intellgience to gather SM, but as a combat oriented character you really need Wits. You're best off putting primary in Mental and Secondary in physical.

>>44300380
I'm not sure how? BP basically is flat XP, except there's already a table with all the numbers worked out.

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>>44300293
>build-from-XP, /.../ that is cumbersome and intimidating as hell
Does the man's math skills end when his fingers run out?

>but even the guy with less stuff still has more than enough stuff to do what he wants
It's just that if what you want is an all-rounder, instead of a hyper-specialised idiot savant, you can quickly find yourself humiliated by the experts in their chosen fields, and matched by them in everythign else, because with the XP it takes for them to catch up with you in their weak areas are only a fraction of what it'd take you to catch up with the shit they're good at, or to reach that level of competence in some other field.

>Solars are basically high-level wizards relative to much of the rest of the setting anyway, even ones that theoretically could have gotten 8 more dots of things
Except Bill and Bob won't really compare themselves to the faceless mooks in the background. Their primary point of reference will be each other, and when Bill turns out to be just plain better than Bob, we have an issue. Or when Bob compares his 5-3-3 array to Bizarro Bob's 5-5-1 and notices that it'll take him a lot more XP to reach 5-5-3, or 5-5-5, or whatever.

>despite that it is not actually a problem once the rubber hits the road, unless there are manifold other things screwed up in the game it's applied to for it to aggravate.

>despite that it is not actually a problem once the rubber hits the road unless there are manifold other things screwed up in the game it's applied to for it to aggravate.
He's rally making himself popular with earlier devs, ain't he? Though it's a brush with some tar left for him as well when keeping the wonky system makes the same old problems crop up again when people start playing.

>>44300486
charms are a lot more expensive with BP so you don't take them at chargen. If you only use BPs, people will have less charms.
There's certain charms/workings that cost xp, sometimes even 1xp, which makes it really ugly when using BP
essence advancement gets kind of wonky

>>44300375
>but isn't that a real problem with the current system?

LALALALALALACAN'THEARYOU

>>44300517
a) They will totally buy lots of Charms because Charms are good and fun and +1 dot in an ability they don't use isn't.
b) If you feel that BP cost of Charms is too high, you can tick it down, easy, no problem, because you will always be using that BP cost. Easier than trying to figure out what the flat cost for XP should be.
c) 1 BP is worth about 2 XP. Use this as for all the other rules that rely on XP.

>>44300550
>a) They will totally buy lots of Charms because Charms are good and fun and +1 dot in an ability they don't use isn't.
yes, they will spend almost all their BP on charms. That still means they get less Charms than someone using the default rules, because the Charms are more expensive.

>>44300563
I have not found that to be a significant play problem. Perhaps I have less charms than I would have in an XP based system - but I have no access to such a system, since my game uses BP only.

>>44300550
>c) 1 BP is worth about 2 XP. Use this as for all the other rules that rely on XP.
so if I spend an odd amount of xp, I have to have 1/2 BP on my sheet? How is that not unnecessarily complicated, compared to just setting a fixed xp cost for attributes and abilities?

>>44300582
Round up, or down, or whatever. A single XP point doesn't fucking matter anyway dude.

>>44300581
how many BP do you get? Two per session?
And what are the Essence thresholds?

>>44300516
Looking at character A versus character B is buying into Holden's inane alternate reality where BP/XP only matters for character competition.

The reality is that you start playing Exalted as soon as you make a character and, by extension, BP/XP takes effect the moment you go, "Wait a second. I should have 5/5/1 here instead of 4/4/3 like my concept would imply because that's strictly superior due to the BP/XP divide." It implicitly constrains your choices and punishes you for not making a monomaniacal asshole.

The 3e designers expect you to care about things that reward you with more XP (like, role-playing out a flaw that negatively impacts you, or acting according to your Caste, or letting another player take the spotlight), but not to care about things that (effectively) punish you by taking away XP (such as, oh, I don't know, playing a well-rounded character who builds up particular talents rather than starting off legendary at everything and only then moving on to pick up a smattering of general use skills).

>>44300596
A 50% increase in cost doesn't matter when you're spamming terrestrial workings at celestial circle?
Or even better, rounding down the 1xp cost to get it free?

>>44300337
Right but it may not fit my character concept of being a warrior-artisan. Just because something is cool doesn't mean it would work.

>>44300654
Then don't take it? We kind of assume you had an in-character reason for having it, if you don't what's the point?

>>44300654
>warrior-artisan

Just as the smith forges the sword, your sorcerer forges the spell; smelting essence in the fires of his mind and shaping them upon the anvil of his will.

>>44300633
We get a bunch, like 4-6 BP? Essence thresholds are a little weird (we don't silo or use Solar XP awards, and I think it might be calibrated based on Charm total rather than XP total). I'm not GM or anything so I don't really need to know, but I want to say it's 38 BP for Essence 2? Something like that.

>>44300651
If it winds up being that important, you can just write down ".5" on your sheet.

TG I had an idea for an artifact weapon that would essentially be immaterial in it's natural state, much like Spirits and the entry-level evocation allows the wielder to reflexively manifest it for 3m, similar to Spirit-Manifesting Word from Occult. Would that be balanced?

>>44300711
and all those workarounds are simpler than setting two numbers because...?

>>44300736
I do not see why not.

>>44300746
You have to make a bunch of "workarounds" for XP too. How many XP does a character get at the start instead of BP? How much is a point of a non/favored skill worth? Tertiary versus secondary attribute?

If it bothers you so insanely much, yes, you can set the table however you want. You can just straight up double BP costs and numbers so you can get a half point without having to put ".5" at the end. If only the system had been designed properly in the first place, none of this would be necessary, but alas.

>>44300798
I think you confuse me with someone else. I'd still keep BP at chargen, just make attributes/abilities linear instead of scaling.
It is literally the simplest solution, requiring minimal adjustment or houseruling while solving all the problems of the split.

>>44300820
If you use BP at chargen and XP for advancement you still run into BP/XP split problems, since BP and XP have different ratios between stuff.

>>44300820
>requiring minimal adjustment or houseruling while solving all the problems of the split.
Well, unless you re-balance the numbers, there will still be a way to get more or less XP out of your BP, which is what people are trying to avoid

TG I need some help about the rules. I understand that you can't combine Martial Arts Charms with other Charms, but if I say have Snake Style and I'm in the form and I want to attack with a weapon using Melee or Thrown, do I have to cancel the form or does it still work but I just have to roll different skills.

>>44300837
the main problem of the BP/Xp split is people getting 5/1/1 or 5/5/1 and then raising those 1s with xp. If xp is linear, those arrays are identical to 3/3/1 and 4/4/3

>>44300851

You don't need to drop the form, but you get no benefits from it if you use the other combat abilities.

>>44300857
Sure, that's the *main* problem. But BP/XP still creates problems in that buying charms with BP is more expensive than the other way around, buying non-favored Charms out of your starting pool is strictly superior than buying them with BP or XP, etc. I want to be able to sit down to make a character without mentally weighing two different resources constantly as I do so, and the house rules my group uses ensure that I don't have to.

>>44300837
>>44300850
I think the idea is "fuck xp, use a flat model of the bp costs instead"
Even if he isn't saying "fuck xp", using the bp costs for xp eliminates the different ratio bullshit you two are talking about

>>44300880
source?

>>44300887
Come on, who actually buys Charms at chargen? That's one of the things I really don't mind the system discouraging.

>>44300880
What about for example the bonus soak and penalty to attacks?

>>44300903
>Come on, who actually buys Charms at chargen?

I do

>>44301065
but...why? 15 charms is more than enough, isn't it?

>>44300903

I'm just estimating based on the rules for armour. You gain no benefit if your using incompatible armour (p. 426) and an attack can't benefit from an MA charm and a non MA charm. It's tenuous, but trust the devs to make it vague as usual.

>>44300923

Not sure, really.

>>44301065
>>44301084
Solar Charms are actually the only thing that you can't buy post-chargen with Solar XP.

If you want to be doing Wyld-Shaping, Socialize's persona tree, legendary Crafting, Null Anima Gloves or other Charm intensive things, it's actually better to buy Charms in chargen than anything else, even if it looks like a virtual XP deficiency.

>>44301381
Or you could just wait 4-6 sessions.

>>44301409
If your goal is something like Spirit-Stoking Elevation + Flowing Mind Prana to boost your entire team, you're better off buying the Charms ASAP.

lmfao:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e/page110&p=19551421#post19551421
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769945-Giant-Threads-of-Minus
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?769100-Exalted-3-Tolerably-Pleasant-Criticism-Thread

I think this works as flat XP costs for chargen, without any secret traps in build-order (e.g. Evocations costing less at chargen than later). Tell me if I'm wrong, it's kind off off the cuff.

Instead of starting with BP, players start with a pool of 60 Solar Experience, which works as defined in the book. Experience is gained over play at the normal rate, in both XP and Solar XP, and Essence thresholds, etc, act as normal.

The following are the new, flattened, XP costs:
Attribute: 8 XP per dot
Ability: 4 XP per dot (3 XP if ability is Caste/Favored, and/or the dot purchased is 1-3)
Specialty: 3 XP
Purchased Merit: Rating x3 XP
Willpower: 8 XP
Solar Charm: 10 XP (8 XP if Caste/Favored, and/or the Charm is Essence 1)
Martial Arts Charm: 10 XP (8 XP if Brawl is Caste/Favored, and/or the Charm is Essence 1)
Spell: 10 XP (8 XP if Occult is Caste/Favored, and/or the spell is Terrestrial Circle)
New Evocation: 8 XP

Because MA Charms, Solar Charms, Spells, and Evocations are all fungible with one another during the "assign charms" phase, all the ones available to a starting character should be equally priced under this system.

>>44290239
>I wonder if the other Exalted will be less effective at Sorcery,

It's Exalted and you're wondering if there's something that Solars are going g to be inherently superior at?

>>44302506
Really now, you should try to get him to bet you $500 or so before you start in with the mockery.

Then you'd get a wad of cash AND to make fun of him.

Man, I really hate the way that the system encourages you to make nothing but 5/5/1 5/3/1 5/1/1 characters. Would anything break if you gave characters 5/7/9 in their Tert/Sec/Prim attributes, but the fifth dot costs twice as much?

>>44302584
You are playing a Solar, they are supposed to be exceptional. Hence the 5th dot not costing more.

>>44302423
should i suggest this for my group?
it seems to work out about right

>>44302684
RAW, the fifth dot costs more already. If you buy it with XP.

This doesn't limit you from being a 5/1/1 or a 5/3/1, and only slightly harshes your mellow by making you a 5/4/2 instead of a 5/5/1, but if you choose *not* to take a five, you can be a 4/2/2 4/4/2 4/4/4 instead, which I feel like offers an incentive players would maybe be interested in taking up from time to time.

(I considered making it 5/7/10, which would enable you to make 5/1/1 5/3/1 5/5/1 but incentivize not doing that, but it means it is impossible not to have a 5 in your Primary category.)

Can you other xp/bp houserule guys post your breakdowns like this anon? >>44302423
I'd like to see which version seems best for my players.

ITT People think incentive is requirement.

>>44300375
>I'll feel really really shitty when I notice how much it would cost to get with xp and how much easier it would have been to get it at chargen.
Has that ever actually come up in a game you've played?

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>>44302864
It's not even an incentive, just a lack of restriction. Pretty stupid how people interpret the lack of anti-minmaxing measures as an order to minmax.

>>44302827
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770024-Exalted-3-Talking-About-BP-XP-Thread/page3&p=19552945#post19552945
XP-based, similar principle, but Attributes and Abilities are slightly more expensive (10/5 rather than 8/4). Also doesn't take into account Circle/Essence and "buy up to 3 in even non-favored skills" phase, so buying certain out-of-Caste/Favor charms at chargen is incentivized, as is purchasing Evocations and Spells out of your initial Charm pool, as is buying your important out-of-Caste skills. Not a huge deal, but does still introduce mild incentivization wrt to chargen.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e/page96&p=19549088#post19549088
BP-based, avoids weird incentives, but you may have some problems with figuring out exactly what to do with XP at certain points. It also dumps xp siloing, which I don't mind but you might find obnoxious.

>>44302864
It is incredibly frustrating to look at one's character sheet and realize you fucked up, because if you had made a 5/3/1 character and grown into a 5/5/2 character, you'd be better off than their actual 5/2/2 -> 5/5/2 build. It's unpleasant and character creation is a core part of gameplay.

>>44302918
It literally, sincerely, incentivizes minmaxing dude. 5/1/1 IS THE INCENTIVIZED SET-UP. You get more experience points to play with if you make a 5/1/1 guy who becomes 5/2/2 than if you make a 3/2/2 guy who becomes 5/2/2.

>>44302968

>It is incredibly frustrating to look at one's character sheet and realize you fucked up, because if you had made a 5/3/1 character and grown into a 5/5/2 character, you'd be better off than their actual 5/2/2 -> 5/5/2 build. It's unpleasant and character creation is a core part of gameplay.

This is not a universal truth. This is a personal problem. Some people don't get that bent out of shape over the efficiency of build if the game is not so punishing that it requires it. Exalted 3E is definitely not going to punish you when you play the game- the only issue is that -you- feel bad about it. So why do you feel bad?

>>44302968
>It is incredibly frustrating to look at one's character sheet and realize you fucked up
I can't speak for everyone i realize, but im gonna go ahead and say far fewer people actually care about that as much as you do. I have and many people at my table have all made far less than optimized characters, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not, and not once have i seen anyone really upset over it.

>>44303001
>This is a personal problem.
You are suggesting that my emotions are abnormal. They are actually very common feelings on the part of players who become aware of how the BP/XP system has incentivized them to build characters. Thus lots of people hating it and looking for houserules to replace it.

Perhaps not everyone feels this way. Great, cool, fine, I'm glad you don't mind your wasted 20-100 XP because you didn't build your character in the mathematically optimal way. But you don't *actually get* anything out of it, either. If you don't care about optimization, then there's no need to support a system that creates arcane optimization criterion like Exalted's. If you do, then you have every reason to hate it.

>>44303047

This didn't answer my question. Why does BP/XP inefficiency make you feel bad? Don't give me system critiques, don't give me design advice.

Tell me why BP/XP inefficiency makes you, Anon, feel bad. That is what I want to know.

>>44303047
>They are actually very common feelings on the part of players who become aware of how the BP/XP system has incentivized them to build characters.
[citation needed]

>>44303102
I said why it makes me feel bad already. I don't like feeling like I made suboptimal, irrevocable choices. BP/XP creates that sensation, and also encourages me to make 5/5/1 5/3/1 5/1/1 characters that I rarely actually want to make because I want a more well-rounded character.

>>44302968
Thanks very much. That first one seems to miss most of the point by still having chargen spending different than spending in play.
The second one seems better, but I think I want to keep siloing

Anyone else got some suggested rules?

>>44303047
The last bit kinda sums up my feelings on this. I don't think I'll ever have that moment where I'm honestly upset over not building my character different at the start, but having a system that can cause that sort of thing is rather frustrating, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

>>44300098

>I don't have a horse in this race but I'd probably be pretty fed up with the acrimonious sniping over XP/BP too if I were him.

Then just fucking change it to one thing or another already.

>>44303159
Even if it'd be good in this case, caving over an issue because a bunch of people whined about it is a very bad design practice.

>>44303135

So because you are hung up on numeric parity, you will allow incentives to turn into dictates, and not be happy because you want to do it differently, but just can't do it?

A lot of these bp/xp arguments here and in the forums seem to be people that see a problem and dislike the current system, versus people that don't see a problem and think it's fine or very minor.
If it's a fight of grievance vs apathy, those that think they'll actually benefit are the priority, because the apathetic people won't lose with the change.
It seems the case here that almost no one is arguing the original system is better, just 'not worse'.

I want to make a Dawn solar who's supposed to be a mighty warlord and general for my first exalted game. What kind of charms and merits should I be looking at? Obviously War stuff, and there's the merit for an army but I'm not sure how worth it it is.

Tangentally, how necessary are martial arts to being an effective fighter in Exalted?

>>44303190
No, it isn't. Holden, et al, are game designers, not third-world dictators. It does not "undermine their authority" when they respond and adjust the game in reaction to justified criticism. Responding well here doesn't force them to reinstate the Reclamation or the retarded GET-immune Deathlords if a bunch of fucktards start complaining about them being immune.

I do not understand why so many people on the internet who have zero real authority are so insistent that everybody give them the respect that power is due, circling the wagons at the faintest whiff of criticism. They do not have real power that must be defended from rebels and vagabonds. They have unassailable pretend power over certain imaginary things, no amount of criticism or argument can take that away from them, regardless of whether that criticism/argument is justified, successful, etc.

>>44303214
I've made a few different PCs, who are:
1/5/1 1/5/3 2/5/4
3/5/2 5/3/1 3/4/4
2/5/4 5/1/1 2/2/5

If I had been building them on the assumption of a BP/XP divide (rather than unified BP/XP), they would all be ugly 5/5/1 5/3/1 5/1/1 monsters like Holden apparently wants me to build.

>>44303190

Except it's been proven *mathimatically* that it's terrible, concept wise its terrible as it hazes newbies and encourages minmaxing, and system wise its terrible for two different resources.

There is literally no ground for defending the BP/XP split. Anyone who defends it literally has no idea what they're talking about, so it marks no surprise that Holden's defending it.

>>44303267
Battle groups rip shit to shreds. They are strong. Command is absolutely worth it, probably the most worth it story merit in the book. I felt like I was cheating buying two dots of it, honestly.

There's an Integrity charm, Soul-Nourishing Technique, that lets you feed your army on your words alone, that might be nice to grab. Otherwise, War is going to be your main ballpark as a military commander. Order commands let you give extra dice to your (Elite, they are Elite, right? You did buy Tiger-Warrior Training, didn't you?) troops, which just makes them all the nastier to your opponents, so look for charms that bolster that.

>>44303309

So I ask you, are you actually losing anything in a game by building suboptimally that isn't outweighed by having the character you envision from the outset and the subsequent enjoyment from having it?

Is the game more difficult as a result? Does your character have greater risk of failure or uselessness? Does Player [A] having an extra thing here or there matter when those things cannot steal scenes or upend the party like D&D 3.X Wizards?

>>44302874
I don't play in games with bad rules, so no.

>>44303384
Can you split battle groups on the fly? Like if you see an enemy sorcerer start flappling his arms and you think he's going to cast Obsidian Butterflies, you order your troops to break off so he has a smaller target?

>>44303442
I'm a math major who writes computer programs to determine the optimal arrangement of points in RPGs, so yes. I will brood over it, I will stew on it, I will feel annoyed every time I look at my sheet and think, "man, it would be better if I'd gone with X instead of Y." I would also be able to *play my character better* because I would be playing the same character, but with an extra 20-100 XP, after just a little bit.

>>44303546

Assuming you are advocating for a change in the actual text of the book- this doesn't strike you as compromised judgement and consequently, opinions formed from that judgement?

>>44303309
You miss my point. Im not saying the split is good im saying most of the time people on the forums are just saying 'i dont like it' without actually pointing out why its bad.

>>44303384
So go with Elite troops over regular troops and make sure to have Tiger-Warrior Training? Any specific charms I should look at for War?

And what about Martial Arts? Am I going to be shooting myself in the proverbial foot if I don't take Martial Artist?

>>44303790
>So go with Elite troops over regular troops and make sure to have Tiger-Warrior Training?

Correction - go for normal troops in your Command merit (you get more bodies for your buck) then use TWT to boost them to elite.

>>44303852
Ah ok, good to know.

>>44303631
No.

RPGs are intended to be fun. There is no fun earned from the BP/XP divide - it's a newbie trap, plain and simple, and creates distorted optimization criterion. It also makes me have less fun, because my characters have to be built a certain way in order to be optimal, and that is not the way I want to build them.

>>44298605
>>44298596
Sutras for Sidereal Martial Arts, from the look of it. Keep up, kohai.

I swear i never fucking understood exalted, even reading the manual in my own language.

I just know that once i made a Dawn solar who was basically Khorne wrecking shit with a giant axe

>>44303953

Well sir if you are unable to cop to your biases, we have nothing further to discuss. It's obvious your biases lead you to take incentive to be dictate and then complain about it when you do have a choice, but you just can't get past said biases to make it.

Good day sir.

Tiger warrior Training is 10m, 1WP - Indefinite.

Does that mean I have to keep 10 motes committed to each battle group or they lose their elite status?

>>44303487

Technically no. The sidebar on page 211 forbids this, but a BG covers a large amount of ground, covering many range bands, but they also apply the attacks they make to everyone close to them.

>>44304060
No, you commit for the week/month you spend training.

>>44304106
Oh thank god

If I have an attribute at 1dot, how much xp does it cost to bump it to 2dots?
The book says current rating x4, so that's 4xp right?
All others use current rating except merits which use new rating.

>>44304037
It doesn't matter if it's my personal bias you tard. Does BP/XP bring you some deep joy? Has anyone ever given a POSITIVE reason for LCQA? I haven't seen it. Even Holden's slippery-ass defense is "it doesn't matter that much, progressive advancement is important (though don't expect me to explain why)."

>>44303190
Let me give you an analogy. Do you think it would be a bad deisgn practive if a car company "caved in" and stopped making cars that explode spontanously just because people complain about it? Because that's what it feels like.

>>44304175
yeah, it looks like neutrals fighting negatives, with no one actually suggesting a reason to keep it other than inertia and pride

>>44304194
My car didn't explode, so I don't see why all these people are clamouring to solve this "exploding car" hoax I haven't seen happen to me.

>>44303228
Here is what you do:

1) you take supenrnal War and Tiger-Warriors Training Technique. You can turn a few villages worth of adult males into an elite army in a few weeks.

2) You don't take too much in that Command Merit, because you don't want it. A too big force will garner attention. Make a small but elite army for surgical strikes. For synergy's sake take a specialty in War that compliments it, something like "when outnumbered" or "guerrila warfare".

3) You take 5 Charisma for commanding and high Intelligence for strategic rolls.

4) You don't invest that much in combat. You don't need it, all you need to do is survive. Dodge, Melee, even Resistance, all are solid choices. Because:?Tangentally, how necessary are martial arts to being an effective fighter in Exalted?

At all. You don't have to do it at all. That said, you are encouraged to take either a style or Sorcery just to have something nice to spend Solar XP on. And btw- White Reaper is very good for anybody who wants to be a warlord, because if you can force those situations where you have your army with you, you will usually fight against an army yourself and White Reaper cleaves through those like a hot knife through butter.

>>44303487
Not really. But as usual- it's a game of GM says. Armies are kinda difficult to just disband on the fly to respond to AoE. Especially when there is little cover. If it was up to me I would allow it with a difficulty 3 or 4 Command roll in a dense forest or similar enviroment and difficulty 5 in an open field. And make it completely impossible without specfic Charms in an open desert or onboard a ship etc.

But that's just me.

>>44304208
Honestly, I don't see a reason to change it in the core because while there is a mechanical disadvantage, I don't feel it significant enough to stress over.

This is obviously untrue for others, but I personally will most likely use the rules as presented in the books.

>>44304060
Until you're done trianing them. After that the effects are permanent.

>>44304232
Yes, beceuase your car didn't explode, we can safely disregard all those people who lost their families in car explosions. Clearly the problem doesn't exist and they actually do not understand that they really really WANT exploding cars, they just don't realize it.

Jesus christ you god-damn autists.

>>44304439
I think you're severely hyperbolizing the issue. An XP deficit is not an exploded car, it's a tire that wears down slightly faster than industry standard.

>>44304439
Jesus christ you autist can't notice satire. That was the specific fucking point I was making by framing their arguments in this analogy to show why they're morons.

>>44304393
The thing about the BP/XP divide is it introduces a (secret) charop decision. And it's a universal one, cutting across concepts - it doesn't matter if you're a nefarious sorcerer or a clever thief or an unstoppable drunken brawler, BP/XP matters. It makes it harder for me to play my character.

Like... suppose I want to play the Comte de Drufaire, a clever nobleman and sorcerer. If I build him with breadth and later give him depth - that is, if he goes from a well-rounded man to an invincible ubermensch in certain fields with a smattering of other skills - he will be objectively worse than if I had built him with depth and added breadth - that is, if he went from a monomaniacal expert to someone with broad skills. If I don't want to do that, then I will be punished.

That is the sole end effect of using BP/XP rather than, say, the rules outlined here: >>44302423

If you expect me to care about getting more XP (via Solar XP) so you can use it to encourage role-playing and spotlight sharing, why do you not expect me to care about effectively losing XP? It's retarded.

>>44304393
>>44304393
i can totally understand some people don't think it's an issue, or maybe too minor for them to even give a shit, especially to the extent of implementing a houserule
but if the book is catering toward people that feel meh either way, then it's losing to those that do think a change would be better, at a net loss
If they decided to drop it this edition and the core started with a non-split system, or hell, even had a good spot for an official houserule, then nothing would need to be changed, so people that are arguing against the necessity wouldn't give a fuck and those that're buttmad about maths would be satisfied

>>44304547
I can respect that opinion, though I feel that the hyperbole presented in some persons in the exalted community, and this thread in particular, is a bit much, and that the 'net loss' is relatively little, even if it is a visible and has more impact on some people than others.

>>44304612
sure, people get pretty passionate and extreme on the internet
other than the time wasted on these arguments, i think it would be an incredibly small cost to the neutral people if the book added the extra system, compared to a bigger benefit to those that hate bp/xp
it seems like an overall better outcome than what we have now

>>44304612
>the 'net loss' is relatively little
Johnny Charop: 5/1/1 5/3/1 5/5/1; 5/5/5/5/5/5 abilities
Goofus: 3/2/2 4/3/2 4/4/3; 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 abilities

Endgoal: 5/2/2 5/5/2 5/5/3; 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 abilities

Cost for Johnny Charop to become Endgoal: 81 XP
Cost for Goofus to become Endgoal: 224 XP

That's right, you've wasted 143 XP - that is to say, 14-17 Charms - because you built your character to be broad and build into his talents rather than talented and learn to be broad.

>>44288880
Drawing the bow is actually how you charge the magnetic accelerators, which fire the arrow through a series of rings in front of the grip. Basically a rail gun that looks like a bow.

>>44304738
Except that when is that ever actually the case in play?

>>44304832
Even if it's half that big a disparity because of your suboptimal build, that could easily represent a dozen sessions and months of playtime.

>>44303973
Any ideas for what kind of themes those SMAs would have?

Why not combine Stamina and Strength into a single stat and split Dexterity into a full body stat for dodge/athletics/etc stuff and a nimble fingers stat for accuracy/larceny/etc stuff?

It seems like a Fitness/Finesse divide would produce two useful stats of equivalent value to an overall Brawn stat, and I can imagine more character concepts that rely on the difference between Fitness and Finesse (an acrobat versus a watchmaker, a runner versus an archer, etc) than on the difference between Strength and Stamina (a... strongman who is sickly?).

>>44305972

That wouldn't change the overwhelming value of the new [Agility] stat, since it'd still be the stat used to hit things and not get hit, which means it's a gatekeeper between the force vs. resistance parts of the equation.

Basically, any stat you use to do things in combat (as opposed to no doing things because you missed) is going to be the most valuable one, period. You can see this even over in D&D (where in 4e, accuracy ruled the day; or in 3.PF, where Strength dramatically overwhelmed Dexterity or Constitution in usefulnss). The only way to change that is to change the definition of hitting and missing so that it's less all-or-nothing.

I never understood why people called them idiot savants when someone has a 1. Like, does everyone imagine 1 as being equivalent to being the Hunchback guy from the Disney movie in appearance? Because that seems really extreme.

>>44306070
>That wouldn't change the overwhelming value of the new [Agility] stat, since it'd still be the stat used to hit things and not get hit, which means it's a gatekeeper between the force vs. resistance parts of the equation.
No? I think you misread, or I wasn't clear. There's one stat to hit things, and one stat to not be hit. They're separated.

In this hypothetical system, if I want to hit somebody, I roll "Finesse" + [relevant combat ability] + weapon's accuracy and any other modifiers. I roll against my target's Defense - let's say it's Evasion - which is ["Agility" + Dodge] / 2.

>>44306191

Okay, it's still the stat used to hit things, even if it's not the stat used to not be hit.

In either case they're still both wildly more valuable than Brawn, and Finesse is more valuable than Agility--or basically any other combat stat, because there's no way the benefit for bumping Brawn up by 1 will match even a mild increase in accuracy.

>>44306085
Nah, see, App 1 is an extremely plain looking person who doesn't wear make-up or anything.
Quasimodo is someone with Hideous and Appearance 3, roughly.

Reading about it for quite some time, both in /tg/ and the foruns... yeah, >>44302423 (and the forum post it's from, or if it's a parallel development thing) did show me something that makes the whole thing stupid.

It only exists because Attributes & Abilities have scaling costs. >>44304738 's build only problem is this. Just using the average for said costs, 10xp for Attributes and 5/4 for Abilities (non-fave/fave&caste) would solve it. >>44302423 cheapens Abilities to 4/3 for 4xp total, but I see no reason to do it, honestly. In this scenario the costs would become

Johnny Charop: 81 -> 162xp (81xp loss)
Goofus: 224 -> 150xp (74xp gain)

150xp is the cost of getting 7 attribute dots + 20 ability dots. Johnny actually is at a disadvantage here for he has to buy the first dot in 4 abilities. If you use >>44302423's version, just subtract 20xp from both.

I don't think becoming an absolute master of about 40% of all abilities available to human beings and become quite the paragon in over half of their innate attributes should be a simple endeavor - "mere" 9-16 sessions (from best to worst case, considering you don't buy charms) - as it would be for >>44304738 's Johnny Charop.

So yeah, flat costs do solve a lot of the problem. The other disparities of BP/XP (mainly favored&caste/non-favored) would rarely amount to even 20xp, if that much, I guess. Worth to keep the system, considering that tracking 15 BP is quite simpler than 60+ XP at chargen.
Yeah, /tg/ will say it's not, well, bullshit. We might think it's trivial, but most people I've played with would say differently. Not everyone is thinks with math, no matter how infuriating that may be.

>>44304944
Nah, I didn't write that stuff, I just wanted to point out what they were to the guy acting like he couldn't tell.

>>44306298
So xp spent as normal, except all attributes are 10xp, all favored abilities are 4xp and all non-favored are 5xp?
Would you suggest altering anything for chargen free stuff and bp stuff?

>>44306085
Which is exactly why I don't cosider attributes to be decriptive at less. Much elss hassle that way.

>>44306432
Are you 13 parry mortal or that "fuck anyone with a 1 up the ass" guy from the other thread?
1s as subpar but not horrendous is how this is clearly stated to work.

>>44304738
Is that really the endgoal? Because in my experience people don't bother with attributes at all, no matter what they start at.

Don't get me wrong, I think the divide is fucking stupid, but I really have to point out that whenever a player takes a 1 in something I always go "are you sure about that? You understand what kind of message this sends? Do you understand the implications and what you're asking me to do by doing this?". Because if somebody takes a 1, intending to buy it out undermines the entire point of taking a 1. I would be perfectly in my right to simply not allow Charop to buy beyond 1. After all, he specifically sent me a message that he wants to be fucked over.

>>44306298
>Johnny actually is at a disadvantage here for he has to buy the first dot in 4 abilities.
Which is why >>44302423 doesn't have a surcharge for buying the first dot in an ability. One dot costs the same whether it's first, second, or third. So Johnny's paying 80 XP for his abilities (5*4*4) and 70 XP for his attributes, the same amount as Goofus: 80 XP for his abilities (2*4*10) and 70 XP for his attributes.

> >>44302423 (You) cheapens Abilities to 4/3 for 4xp total, but I see no reason to do it, honestly
I priced them at 8/4 because I was thinking in terms of, what's the cost of your third ("middle") point? I think 10/5 is probably better/more accurate (tick up the XP total, though), actually, but it's such a tiny difference I don't think it /really/ matters.

>Worth to keep the system, considering that tracking 15 BP is quite simpler than 60+ XP at chargen.
Is it? I mean, okay, it's a bit simpler. But most of BP/XP costs are just "XP is 2-4 times as expensive for the same shit." It's a bit bigger numbers, but the basic relationships are mostly the same, and they're not hard to calculate. Compared to the enormous brick wall that is the 800+ charms, I don't think "you have 60/75 XP, go wild" is that big a deal.

>>44306518
eugh not this fucker again.
the other thread told you that your hatred of 1s was bullshit, because you don't even understand what a 1 means in exalted's system.

>>44306488
Maybe. But taking a 1 with an understanding of what it implies and then buying it comes off as dishonest to me. What's the point of taking that 1 with you're not gonna stick to it? Are you really trying to play a character who is extremely talented ina narrow field and incompetent in some, or are you just trying to milk the system?

Because I've gotta tell you, I've got a whole can of respect for the former and exactly zero for the latter.

>>44306578
No, I'm attempting to play a character who is extraordinary in certain fields but thoroughly unexceptional and perhaps even mediocre in others.

>>44306570
No, there was a lot people with strong opinions thinking they are objectively right. I can't see how that should phase me one bit.

I mean, treat attributes in whatever way you want to. I'm doing what I'm doing so that the game sflow better and I don't have to do jack-shit to fix the mechanics.

Looking at things from a different angle is all the difference. If you did that you'd understand that the solution you're looking for is irrelevant, becaus ethe problem is imaginary.

But hey, keep complaining about something that can literally be solved by you looking at it from a different perspective. That is the sane thing to do.

>>44306601
While I can't say for others, at my table it would best translate as a character with 5/4/2 5/2/2 and a 3/2/2. I mean you COULD take some 1s and narratively be "wholly unexceptional" while your narrative concentrating on how horribly unlucky you are times and times again due to those 1s.

But you have to understand that to me a 1 means something entirely different than what it means to you.

>>44306653
They were objectively right because the book fucking says so:
>In general, a rating of one dot is poor, a rating of two dots is average, a rating of three dots is above-average, a rating of four dots is exceptional, and a rating of five is masterful. Dot ratings above two are important, and dot ratings above three are key elements of a character’s concept.

>>44306710
It is far easier to disregard what the book says in it's description, which amounts to little more then fluff, then to fix broken mechanics.

Again, complaining about something that requires ignoring a bit of fluff to work intead of just, you know, ignoring it, seems... Well, I can't calll it anything else then complete madness.

>>44306763
You are retarded. The system is simply not built on the assumption that 1 is "shitty."

For example, if your Cha 1/Man 5/App 5 character has Socialize 5, and you throw yourself on the mercy of your husband the king, begging him to spare your people - Cha + Soc attempt to Persuade using his Intimacy towards you - you're rolling eight dice against a Resolve of 3 (don't forget! Appearance gives a dice bonus equal to App - Resolve!). 77% chance of success, with a 1 Charisma.

Or you could just quietly speak to him and make him try to see that it's in his best interest not to genocide his beloved wife's people. Then you'd be rolling 12 dice and have a 94% chance of success.

>>44306424
I just wrote again what >>44302423 said (or http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770024-Exalted-3-Talking-About-BP-XP-Thread/page3&p=19552945#post19552945). I only omitted the other stuff because it's just as it is in the book.

Their suggestion is "forget BP and give 60/75 Solar XP at chargen". It works, although ir can be a little more mathy. Also, you can get a couple XP that you can't expend because everything is more expensive and your espendure didn't match. I'd go with what your group finds more agreeable, I guess.

>>44306531
1st point: Valid consideration, I gotta agree with you on that. I had just considered the change in raising their rating, not buying them from the ground up.

2nd point: Hmm... It WOULD make for a somewhat faster progression, but it would certainly make attributes/abilities a more attractive choice. Well, considering you only spent Solar XP on it, I don't see a problem there. Specially if the players use workings and whatnot.

3rd point: Charms are more of a shopping list thing, though. I wouldn't find the XP difficult personally, but I'm quite used to players who find dealing with numbers quite a daunting task. It has less to do with being hard and more about being, I don't know, scary? Big numbers to build stuff tend to make them skitich. Yeah, kinda silly, but not worthy making them feel uncomfortable because of it.

I'd rather just give them a little extra Solar XP here and then when they'd not have earned it to make up for any mistakes. If all of them were comfortable with it though, I'd give the XP and tell them to go wild XD

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Oh good Lord, not this screaming shitfest of an argument again.

>>44303228
>It seems the case here that almost no one is arguing the original system is better, just 'not worse'.

I like BP/XP because it's relatively quick to do and guide players through (spend 8 dots here. Now 6 dots here. 4 dots here. 28 dots here. Now you have 15 dots to put anywhere, but use this little chart to figure out what you can buy with that). I don't really see 5/5/1 characters as a problem. In fact, I like that they have clear weak spots I or the ST can needle if necessary. A Dawn with Sta 1, Res 0 and Dex 5 Melee 5 is a legendary hero with a weakness that means mortals can still threaten him, like Samson and Delilah. The longer the PCs can actually be threatened by mortals, the longer stories can focus on cities and queens instead of Tyrannosaurs in F-14s or heroin-pissing dinosaurs.
I don't care to talk about BP/XP because there are about thirty idiots in the fandom who have decided that this is their argument for life and they will scream themselves hoarse forever about it. Let Holden bitch at them, he gets paid to do it (or will, whenever 3e is actually published and so RichT actually pays him for his work).

I'm just going to quietly wait and hope that these people leave the fandom forever.

>>44307531
Thanks, where did they get the 60/75sxp from?
The 15bp at chargen would translate closer to 30/45 ish sxp for each pricing system.

>>44307690
You make some very good points that other bp/xp people fail to bring up, it's appreciated.
Most of that would still work with a unified system, like the first few steps of chargen, the only difference is those final 15bp being xp instead.
Instead of showing them a table for how to spend bp, you could be showing them the xp table and teach them how they're going to be spending the xp they'll get in play too, and the complication of both of those tables would be equal anyway.

>>44307531
If you really need to avoid your players dealing with a big number up front (and coming from Hero, with 150+ points, just 60/75 doesn't seem like that huge a deal)...

Use the BP system from Ferrinus for chargen (since it has 1 bp for first three dots which is a bizarre newbie trap, frankly), and then, after they're done, look at what they bought, compare it to the maximum pool size they could have gotten (I believe abilities have the best BP:XP ratio), and give them an XP bonus early on based on that.

>>44307690
>I like BP/XP because it's relatively quick to do and guide players through (spend 8 dots here. Now 6 dots here. 4 dots here. 28 dots here. Now you have 15 dots to put anywhere, but use this little chart to figure out what you can buy with that).
Then you just use BP instead of XP. You don't need BP/XP to do this! The only reason anyone even considers switching to pure XP like my above system is because everything else in the entire damn game is built on the assumption that XP exists. If it had been built assuming BP (or some sort of meet-in-the-middle), then there'd be no need to come up with this circuitous stuff.

>>44307756
Caste/Favored abilities have the "best" BP/XP ratio (1:4 using base). Abilities are what is being used to ballpark an appropriate amount of XP. ... hmm, actually, I guess it should be 45/60 points, now that I think about it (depending on 3/4 for Caste ability, since that's the "best" ratio)

exg, is it the worst idea in the world to play a White Reaper stylist with Str 2?

the 60sxp system seems like the best for my table
you don't have 2 resources, it keeps the xp mentioned in other parts of the game, it keeps the default xp and sxp earning system, which is great for siloing charms from stats and side interests like MA, spells and evocations
plus i quite like sxp as a roleplaying incentive on top of a standard xp gain
the flattened costs avoid disparities between chargen vs later advancement, and also jack of all trades vs specialists
the slightly cheaper stat cost makes attributes and abilities more appealing than they were before

anyone got good criticisms or suggestions before i implement this?

>>44307913
Not really. Dexterity is more important, IMO.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770024-Exalted-3-Talking-About-BP-XP-Thread&p=19577796#post19577796

Okay, I think Holden is just mentally disabled in some key way.

>>44308473
He thinks he's good at PR, mainly.

>>44308522
It's really cool to read his posts on that page. It seems like his whole argument for LCQA is, "Well, there are benefits and drawbacks to every approach, so this definitely, 100% retarded approach is just as valid as any other. No, I can't name any benefits to not using flat costs for abilities and attributes."

Fucking FINALLY. I found a Holden post in which he actually defends quadratic XP.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?770024-Exalted-3-Talking-About-BP-XP-Thread&p=19589847#post19589847

>Because it produces a much more organic advancement pacing, yeah. This is in line with everything else in EX3 placing top priority on textural feel of mechanics.

This is exactly as stupid as I thought it was.

>>44308695
well then good thing they have repeated frequently that you can change it if you don't like it.
Glad thats over now we can stop shitposting and talk about something else! Like why [your favorite splat] is shit!

>>44309934
I shouldn't have to change it. It should be right in the first place. I mean, I steal all my RPG books, but people who buy them pay money so that the rules are well-designed in the first place.

>>44309987
Well seeing as how you're in the minority in caring about it and two editions have shown that the way things are work they decided to just leave it the way it is and then paint giant golden letters across the start of the mechanics section saying how if you happen to be one of the people who doesn't like how it is you can change it.

>>44309934
You take that back raksha are the best

>>44310031
There's bee an XP/BP divide for literally over 14 years. It's not going away ever.

>>44310306
They got rid of it in nWoD. Plenty of other systems have had BP/XP divide and similar and fixed it. But actually competent design rather than gamefeels is beyond Holden, so we're stuck with this.

>>44310306
I....know? That wasnt what i was saying, im confused.

>>44310350
>nWoD's XP system
>"fixed"

Yeah sure 40XP a Charm, that surely won't create any perverse game incentives.

>>44310031
Imagine that in the Exalted rulebook, there was a Charm. This Charm was incredibly imbalanced as written; it completely disrupted the game and forced everyone to take it, whether or not it fit their character concept. It was just that important. Now, of course, any sensible group would houserule this stupid Charm out, or give it out for free, but RAW, this was not the case.

Would this be "irrelevant" because I can just houserule it out? No. It would still be fucking retarded and worth complaining about.

>>44310464
You don't have to use the exact same costs as nWoD, Holden. But there's really no excuse for LCQA. It makes the game strictly worse, because it encourages degenerate character design.

>>44310473
exactly, the xp/bp divide is not a problem for some people, and a big problem for others.
but nearly no one actually see a benefit to it, so the book should've just came with another system by default, or an official houserule to avoid this shit.
no skin off the nose for those that don't give a shit.

>>44299033
>to give all the Alchemical and Infernal fans tools to custom build their splats
This has already been done.

Job done, I guess?

>>44310473
Geez good thing only a handful of assholes in a thread that ive never seen get over 50 posters seem to attest to the fact that BP/XP ruins everything and every group ive played with or talked to says that it doesn't have any gross affect on the game.