What would be a sensible justification for having a thieves guild in town?
>>44261141
A town with little to no government, most likely governed by a distant power.
The guild serves as the closest thing to a governing body, mediating disputes, protecting productive citizens (and thereby their income stream).
In this case, the guild would be more like the classic old-country mafia or yakuza where they feel a certain sense of honor and pride in protecting their citizens, but they are still in the business of governing so that they gain wealth and maintain their power.
To combat the imbalance of power created by a concentration of capital among a wealthy few, commonly known as "PCs"
>>44261141
Have you ever read Discworld, OP?
The "Guild of Thieves, Cutpurses, Housebreakers and Allied Trades" as their full name goes, keeps the whole thing nice and organized. See, with how the Guild operates, any given citizen of Ank-Morpork will only be robbed by the membership of the Guild once per year. You get a receipt and everything to prevent it. As their numbers also include housebreakers, one can pay a yearly fee to have a plaque over their door to prevent official burglings.
"But what about non-guild thives, cutpurses, housebreakers, et cetera?" you may ask. Trust me when I say that those gentlemen do NOT want to be caught by the guild.
To top all this off, a significant portion of what the Guild pulls in each year is payed to the city in the form of the Guild Tax that all Guilds pay.
>>44261179
If your PC's are wealthy, you're probably doing it wrong.
>>44261235
One of the most genius thing Vetinari ever did was look at organized crime and go "I can tax that."
The leadership of the town is funneling some tax money to the thieves guild as protection money as well as hiring them to steal resources from other towns and cities near by.
>>44261141
In my closed pocket universe setting there is no erosion,In addition to other things. The thieves guildand many other agenciesis employed by the authorities to keep up the semblance of an economy
>>44261247
Expensive stuff is "wealth." All those magic items you have count towards you being rich.
>>44261250
Turning thieves into insurers is pretty genius.
>>44261141
But banks are something they should have.
>>44261141
the local organized crime ring calls themselves the thieves guild.
If you want it to be semi official then they have an under the table deal with the town rulers that so long as crime stays below a certain level he top level peopel won't be targeted.
The Thieves Guild is actually run by the local government as bait for wannabe thieves. Anyone who approaches it ends up secretly executed or in jail.
Mafia.
>>44261250
The IRS actually taxes income from illegal operations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_the_United_States
>>44261141
The mafia.
>>44261141
The town is large enough to support organized crime.
There, justified. You do know mafia exists in real life, right?
OP, did you know that in Japan, the yakuza have business cards, and offices with the name of their organization out front? Hell, the police call in advance to make appointments for raids. Because it's considered less trouble to let the "boryokudan" (as the police call them) keep the nastiest shit off the streets (for example, go ahead and try to sling coke in that country, I'd advise you to pray it's the cops who get you because no matter what your sentence it'll be better than what the yaks would do) in exchange for a certain degree of cordiality in their interactions.
>>44261141
for a small town then a large criminal organization maintains a few men there for some reason. somewhere out of the way might be a good place to lay low or fence certain goods, or they could just be there to keep an eye on any merchants going through.
>>44261141
I wouldn't consider a thieves guild to be a dormal guild lkie the guild of craftsmen, brewers, merchants etc. but rather the name the thieves call what is essentially the mob. The "thieves guild" extracts protection money from local businesses. In exhange for the money, no theiv who is a member of the guild is allowed to rob the place. If one of them does, they're expelled from the guild. If the guild find sout anybody theif not part of them is trying to operate on their turfs, they'll either get them to join the guild or dispose of them.
Authorities are officially trying to crack down on them, but they're very well hidden and have friends in high place due to giving bribes and doing favour for local rulers. Besides, at least crime is more organized with them around.
>>44261330
What is the value of a non-liquid asset?
>>44261571
Not only do you have to pay taxes on illegal income, you can even deduct expenses incurred as part of that illegal income... unless, specifically, it's drug income. But yeah burglers can deduct their lockpicks and skimasks and whatnot.
>>44261168
A town with a heavy, powerful, autocratic government. Under heavy taxes, surveillance and threat of death, the local criminals have to regulate and organize themselves or face possible extinction. In this case, the guild would probably be extremely prone to violence and intolerant of even the smallest mistakes.
Officials were bribed.
>>44261141
The city is essentially Ankk-Morpork.
Actually /tg/ how WOULD you make that happen?
>>44262098
Stibbons tried to explain how you could NOT, in fact use the Tower of Art as a massive staff just as Ridcully did so to stop it raining over the university.
Now the entirety of Anhk-Morpork is situated at a certain point within [Insert Setting Here]
>>44261141
A major trading port or hub where there's a lot of commerce moving through.
>>44261235
That's just insurance/police, though. That's not something special that only a Theives Guild could provide a town. Even Prachett himself regularly says stuff like 'it just works' and ignores the obvious problems of The Watch and the Thieves Guild essentially doing the same job.
>>44261168
>classic old-country mafia or yakuza where they feel a certain sense of honor and pride
>classic mafia
>honour or pride
Maximum kek
>>44261141
Everyone is crazy and loves to act all theatrical.
Doesn't help that their education is good and everone knows to cast cantrips.
I like the idea that the "thieves guild" is actually a lawful organization that adjudicates the spelunking of ruins that fall within the purview of the province. They'll provide legal fences and adjust interest rates for items that are purloined from those ruins, they also dictate what's off limits entirely.
I'd imagine that you'd petition the thieves guild for exclusive or shared rights to any location of interest, they of course will typically demand a 20% rate on all items sold to them, with certain rights on important artifacts. Regulation has helped to starve illegal cartels and other unlawful organizations from gaining too much power.
They can also provide expertise and services from scholars, appraisers, mercenaries, etc.
>>44261649
>>44261571
It all makes sense.
OP, the sensible justification is income tax. The IRS is just a very well organized thieves guild.
>>44261235
And what if the victim catches the guild's thief red-handed and brings him to them?
>>44262366
Kind of more like an adventuring guild. A thieves guild could be an unlawful organization backed by actual cartel bosses that works to deregulate the spread of magic artifacts.
>>44262390
I can't exactly remember, but I think the "customer" is entitled to some kind of refund since the burglar, as it likely would be, did their job poorly. Sort of like if a carpenter fucked up and forgot to add insulation to some wall somewhere.
>>44262420
I thought that he was just marked off as "robbed" this year and the failure of a thief would get his pay cut. Now you're saying the citizens, that they also get bonuses? Interesting.
>>44262432
I'd imagine those that catch the thieves in the act have a certain period of time that's free from criminal interruption, maybe a reduction on goods sold to them by fences/other TG merchants rather than a monetary concession.
The caught thief, however, would be executed or thrown out of the city, to save the Guild face/as an incentive to other thieves to do their jobs properly.
>>44261141
>What is a sensible justification for having the Mafia in town
gee OP, I don't know. Organized crime is such an unrealistic concept.
>>44261168
Rules and laws only exist to the extent that they can be enforced by a ruling body.
Any institution with a monopoly of force within a society is, by definition, a government, since it alone has the power to enforce whatever laws it likes.
If an institution with a monopoly of force demands that those under its power hand over their wealth, that is not theft. That is taxation, because theft is illegal, and those who hold power in society decide what is and isn't legal. Whether or not an act is "wrong" has no bearing on the law - laws are a matter of power, not morality.
What you describe wouldn't be a "thieves guild", because thieves operate outside the law. The guild you describe would BE the law. A cruel, capricious and corrupt law, most likely, but still the law.
>>44261141
>What would be a sensible justification for having a thieves guild in town?
Ask Italy or the UK.
>>44261141
Thieves
>>44261141
Organised crime is lucrative, so some thieves band together until they're powerful enough to impose their rules on others
>>44262282
I thought there was a division of duties, though. The Thieves Guild handles unlawful seizure of property (theft in all its incarnations) while The Watch handles everything else (unregulated murder, assault, vandalism, illegal parking, etc.)
>>44262282
There is an explanation for this, in the Vade Mecum, saying that a certain number of people think the Guild is redundant.
The thing is, the Watch deals with all kind of crimes and prevent them. The Guild simply make sure that unofficial thieveries are punished (and the victimes compensated). Heck, the Watchmen regularily says that they hand the captured thieves to the Guild.
>>44262469
>>44262432
>>44262420
>>44262390
That's not how it work.
A Guild thief getting caught red-handed will just continue his job, but will probably get made fun of or reprimanded by his colleague for his sloppy job. In "Interesting Time", Rincewind get used as practice dummy by a Guild's student and his teacher, and the student doesn't manage to stun Rincewind properly, repeatedly the teacher get a bit pissed off, but that's all.
The Guild will certainly not kill them, or anything like that. Though, you can get kicked out if you're too violent with the people you're robbing.
>>44262614
Well, the Watch also deals with unauthorised thieves if they see them, but once arrested, it's the job of the Guild to handle them.
Like, if you get caught stealing a purse by Watchmen, they'll send you to the Guild. If you're not caught, it's the Guild's job to track you down.
>>44261141
>What would be a sensible justification for having a thieves guild in town?
A Thieves Guild should never be an official guild with a pamphlet and an official base of operations where you can easily get in to join or ask for information etc.
The Thieves Guild is only called that becasue it sort of operates like a guild for the members. It should be hidden. For example, it could be in a hidden section of the surprisingly large basement of a local inn that's friendly to the thieves (or perhaps the matron of the inn runs the thieves guild!). It makes for a good cover, because dozens of strangers always walk in and out of the inn
Why they would exist? A handful of powerful thieves decided that it'd be best to regulate theft in the city and get a nice slice of everything than to compete with other thieves until the competition gets out of hand. In other words, it's more or less the thieves equivalent of cartel forming and pricefixing in economics. Any new thief who is noteworthy enough will be contacted by the Thieves Guild and either join or get the shit kicked out of him and be planted in front of a local guardpost with damning evidence on them.
As for the common thieves, they are always ensured of help from more experienced associates when it comes to pulling off large thefts and hiding the evidence or fabricating an alibi. Hell, even break-out attempts could be arranged for high profile thieves. Perhaps the Thieves Guild could even arrange some form of basic income for all thieves.
A sort of "thieves guild" in a modern setting could take this to the crazy extreme and make my comparison with corporate anti-competitive activities even further by actually giving them an office (hidden as something entirely different of course, maybe an advertising agency).Maybe the matron could be a sexy office lady with delicious stockings that emphasize her seemingly endless legs
>>44262926
>a sexy office lady with delicious stockings that emphasize her seemingly endless legs
Given who the woman on your pic is, the "endless legs" part might be literal.
She is very sexy, though.
>>44261638
Whatever the DM(G) says.
Alternatively, the price of the highest bidder at auction.
>>44263007
Man, this reminds me of the time some of the PCs in my character's group decided to auction off their magic items, thinking they could get a pretty penny since they did heroic deeds with them.
What a disaster. Turns out, selling massively powerful items to random people isn't a good idea. Especially when the items were made for stealth and that you sold them to a thief.
>>44261141
the thieves are all assholes and in order to keep them from trying to outloot and outstab eachother in an endlessly escalating game of oneupmanship set to destroy the town a few of them have the sense to strategically place their stabbing such that it keeps everyone else's looting in line. The question is why anyone would be advertising that there's a theifs'guild in town. Unless we're looking at some kinda yakuza thing where they operate publically due to shenanigans with the town's infrastructure.
>>44261141
You don't need a special justification, a thieves guild is just the loltgfantasy way of saying it's an organised crime gang. In that way thieves guilds are an actual thing already, criminals tend to self organise above a certain level.
>>44262555
A lot of people don't seem to really get this, which is a shame
This is also the biggest plot hole in literally every "megacorps rule in the future" notion too (when a megacorp takes over the government it literally becomes the new government)
>>44261141
>What would be a sensible justification for having a mafia in town?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia
>>44263411
>his is also the biggest plot hole in literally every "megacorps rule in the future" notion too (when a megacorp takes over the government it literally becomes the new government)
Well, there is a difference between implicite and explicite power, here.
If the megacorp can just bribe/threaten the city's mayor to obey them, they are in charge, but they'd still won't be the government. If the corps is the legitimate owner of the city then they rule over it explicitly
>>44263450
IRL they just bribe the mayor
In fiction land they explicitly rule. They often own the planet, literally own the government legally, have a monopoly on the military and own it too.
>>44263460
and the cops, I forgot literally owning the cops legally
... their corpses too
>>44263460
They do all of those things IRL too. You're just bogging yourself down in semantics if you don't think so.
>>44261235
I want to do the same, but with rape.
>>44261235
>Have you ever read Discworld, OP?
>The "Guild of Thieves, Cutpurses, Housebreakers and Allied Trades" as their full name goes, keeps the whole thing nice and organized. See, with how the Guild operates, any given citizen of Ank-Morpork will only be robbed by the membership of the Guild once per year. You get a receipt and everything to prevent it. As their numbers also include housebreakers, one can pay a yearly fee to have a plaque over their door to prevent official burglings.
>"But what about non-guild thives, cutpurses, housebreakers, et cetera?" you may ask. Trust me when I say that those gentlemen do NOT want to be caught by the guild.
>To top all this off, a significant portion of what the Guild pulls in each year is payed to the city in the form of the Guild Tax that all Guilds pay.
People laud this as brilliance, but this is just a police force with no trial and no human rights for thieves. This was done better by many authoritarian societies throughout human history
There is even a canon instance in diskworld where carrot (basically a cop) is hiding an old man who stole a loaf of bread because the old man is deranged. And he doesn't want the thieves guild to torture him to death
>>44263411
I've always liked the idea of megacorps taking over the government, because it gets really weird if you push the concept too far.
Imagine a megacorp owns an entire city. Everyone who lives in the city is employed by the corp. But cities need infrastructure, which the corp has to pay for. Roads need to be built and maintained. All the buildings need access to electricity and clean water. Employees need tram networks so they can get to work. Schools are needed so that the employees' children can gain the skills they will need to better serve the corp. Hospitals will be needed to care for those employees put out of action by illness of injury. Police and fire services are needed to keep corp assets safe.
Hey, at this point, why even pay your employees? They already get room, utilities, education, security and medical free. Just give them company coupons for food every week, and they'll be fine.
The CEO looks out from his penthouse apartment in the heart of his city, surveying the great human engine of commerce he has built. 10 million men and women toil below, all for the glory of the megacorp. Then he realises, to his dismay, that he's accidentally built a Communist state.
Mafias are tolerated because:
they provide a form of order for the communities they are in, Lawful Evil is still Lawful and is probably preferable to Chaotic. Mafias may be criminals and thugs but if your wife gets raped locally there's a good chance they'll go after the rapist.
protection money doesn't just buy protection from them, it means that rival gangs, independent criminals and so on aren't going to mess with you.
quite frequently a lot of what they do is essentially illegal local business so the criminals tend to be local lads, so it's almost a community thing
people like predictability and with a mafia everyone gets it; you know that if you pay protection on your business they'll watch out for you, you know they're the only criminals in town so it's easier to deal with in terms of risk and you know who to be careful of. They in turn know what income they're getting (which is a big deal for them, burglars and such lack predictable incomes) can plan their operations and have local support.
>>44263595
>The CEO looks out from his penthouse apartment in the heart of his city, surveying the great human engine of commerce he has built. 10 million men and women toil below, all for the glory of the megacorp. Then he realises, to his dismay, that he's accidentally built a Communist state.
Its funny because I had the exact same idea
>>44263601
>Mafias are tolerated because:
Mafias are not tolerated. Powerful governments exterminate them (as they should, the mafia is a competitor, a smaller government trying to wrest control from the big one already in an area, in effect rebels).
Weak governments get controlled and corrupted and intimidated by them. This is not "tolerating" the mafia, it is the mafia winning
>>44263612
>>44263595
This is just how regular governments are. If a corporation takes over everything that a government does normally, then it's no surprise that it becomes a government in itself.
I thought the "coupon" thing was the most flagrant.
>>44263625
No, that's more like the mafia being an unofficial part of the government itself.
>>44263625
I meant locally, the biggest problems that the Italians had in breaking the Mafia were Omerta meaning that criminals would stick by each other and not grass on their peers, and locals preferring the Mafia to the real government.
>>44263632
>No, that's more like the mafia being an unofficial part of the government itself.
You accidentally said no in there and then agreed with me
Mafias are not tolerated, ever. Either they assume control of the government, or they are exterminated.
See the drug cartels in mexico, they are not "tolerated" for all that hilarious nonsense >>44263601 said. they are not exterminated because they are too powerful and effectively control the nation.
On the other hand, in the USA the FBI cleaned out las vegas from all the mafia's.
the only instance you will ever find in history of a mafia not being taken down by a government is because the government can't do so.
>>44263672
>You accidentally said no in there and then agreed with me
No, you were saying that mafias are not tolerated when in fact they are. It's just not official.
>>44263685
That is not tolerance of mafias as per the definitions of tolerance put forth by anon >>44263601 where the government has the power to take down the mafia and the mafia has not corrupted the government, but the government intentionally chooses to let them be because the mafia provides a useful service to the community
That is you explicitly agreeing with literally everything I said, but arguing the semantics of claiming that the word "tolerance" can be applied in "unofficial tolerance" to mean literally word for word what I described happens when the mafia is so powerful it successfully corrupts the government (aka "the mafia wins"). At which point the mafia is not being tolerated by the government, it is part of the government. and one that only exists because its too powerful to challange
>>44263715
It is actually. People in the government itself tolerate it. Citizens not part of the government tolerate it. Whether that means the government is corrupt or whatever is a subjective matter. At most you could say is that it's hiding certain things behind a veneer of parts of itself being illegal.
>At which point the mafia is not being tolerated by the government, it is part of the government.
Yes, I see that you agree with me.
>and one that only exists because its too powerful to challange
The same goes for every government. Or pretty much anything else in existence really. Pointing it out is tautological.
>>44263672
>On the other hand, in the USA the FBI cleaned out las vegas from all the mafia's
>He thinks Las Vegas isn't still knee-deep in organised crime
Oh anon, you are a gem.
>>44263768
>It is actually. People in the government itself tolerate it. Citizens not part of the government tolerate it. Whether that means the government is corrupt or whatever is a subjective matter.
They are not tolerating it, they literally have no choice.
The mexican drug cartels are not "tolerated", they are simply too powerful to take down.
>Yes, I see that you agree with me.
No, you agreed with me. I said it first, you are the retard who fails basic english reading comprehension and then argues retarded semantics
>>44263768
>The same goes for every government. Or pretty much anything else in existence really.
So the reason the government doesn't exterminate the strawberry industry is because the strawberry industry is too powerful and has corrupted the government?
>>44263804
>They are not tolerating it, they literally have no choice.
By this logic "legitimate" governments are not tolerated either.
>No, you agreed with me. I said it first
Uh, no. I said it first. What you said is that it's a smaller government trying to wrest power from the larger, which is quite different.
>>44263215
I lol'd
>>44263818
False logic. The Governemnt has all the control it needs over the strawberry industry in the form of taxes, FDA requirements, pesticide allowances, legal indemnity for problems they cause such as infestation by parasitic organism or viruses, etc.
>>44263566
It's brillance because Vetenari turned a bunch of criminals who didn't recognise his laws into his enforcers, simply by suggesting the idea.
It's not perfect, and there is a reason why Vetinari is considered a "mostly benevolent" tyrant, but it's still a way to pacify the city's criminal elements
>>44263834
>By this logic "legitimate" governments are not tolerated either.
Only by some people.
the majority of people do not have the desire to take down the government and in fact want to empower it further.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)
on the other hand, some people do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement
>>44263871
>>>>The government wants to exterminate mafia. unless mafia wins and subverts the government
>>>that applies to literally anything
>>You mean like the strawberry industry?
>False logic. The Governemnt has all the control it needs over the strawberry industry in the form of taxes, FDA requirements, pesticide allowances, legal indemnity for problems they cause such as infestation by parasitic organism or viruses, etc.
Not false logic you retard. The government doesn't want to "control" the mafia and tax it, FDA requirement it, pesticide allowance. The strawberry industry is not a smaller would be government fighting the big government for control. The strawberry industry is just some people making food.
The mafia on the other hand raises its own army, claims a territory, and demands taxes from the locals (which incidentally reduces the taxes and power of the main government).
>>44263900
>Only by some people.
Same goes for the mafia. So really, what's the difference?
Maybe it would be more clear to say that the law enforcement would take down the Mafia if it could, but that they can't.
>>44263916
That's not really true. The reason why organized crime is so powerful is because law enforcement is entangled with it. So a lot of the police and judiciary and such wouldn't actually want to take it down, they work to keep it up.
Training ground for spies, infiltrators and assassins. Young thieves/pickpockets/rabble with enough promise that get caught get the 'choice' to join and be trained into their 'profession'.
Keeps the streets relatively clean, but the people trained can't always be controlled.
>>44263900
The false logic was in reference specifically to
>So the reason the government doesn't exterminate the strawberry industry is because the strawberry industry is too powerful and has corrupted the government?
and applies only to that comment. The fact that you call someone else a retard when they point out that there isn't an equivalence in argument is because you're an imbecile overclocked on your own superiority, which is distinctly lacking since you then go on to try and break down an argument I haven't actually made against you.
Get a fucking grip, asshat.
>>44263907
>Same goes for the mafia. So really, what's the difference?
I said is that a government who has not been subverted by a mafia (explicitly referred to as mafia wins) and has the power to do so will destroy the mafia.
I explicitly quoted >>44263601 as explicitly what I was counter arguing against with that, the claim that a government that has not been subverted will allow a mafia because a mafia provides it with "useful services"
That in no way shape or form implies that everyone tolerates the big government either and that nobody wants to see it gone.
>>>>>Government tolerates mafia because they provide useful services
>>>>Me: No, governments wants to destroy mafia, only times they don't is because mafia is too powerful to destroy
>>>But some people want to destroy the government
>>Me: Yes, your point?
>Then what is the difference between mafia and government?
>>44263930
Let me correct myself: Honnest law enforcement and governments would take down the mafia if they could, but they can't
>>44263932
>The false logic was in reference specifically to
I know that is what it was applied to, that is what makes you a retard. It is a totally retarded statement
>>44263948
But the mafia is part of the government. Sure, it "wins", but that's irrelevant here.
>>44261141
>>44261235
>>44261596
>>44262926
The nobility in town is bored and decadent, and a few years ago a thieving craze swept the upper classes. People started scaling the walls of each other's palaces and make off with valuables or personal items as a way of one-upping each other and to foster an adventuring, dare-devil persona, and to steal things back from one another. Whole businesses sprang up around personal trainers teaching spoiled noblemen to throw grappling hooks and pick locks, and the wealthy made a sport out of complaining about the astronomical sums they were losing to theft in order to tell everyone how filthy rich they were.
After a string of deaths following the popularization of home-defense in the form of traps, which some say were used as a way to get rid of rivals rather than protect valuables which often cost less than the construction and installation of the traps by skilled craftsmen, news laws were passed.
Now the art of thieving and the allowed countermeasures are strictly regulated by the thieves guild, and membership fees payed by gentleman thieves pay for medical expences and insurances in the rare occasion that bodily harm or property damage is caused by the thieving.
Everyone agrees that just like everything else, thieving is better handled by the upper class, and stealing out of poverty or need is very tasteless, and invariably carries harsh punishments like loss of limb or death.
>>44263960
>But the mafia is part of the government.
Again
>I explicitly quoted >>44263601 as explicitly what I was counter arguing against with that, the claim that a government that has not been subverted will allow a mafia because a mafia provides it with "useful services"
Mafias all try to subvert the parent government. The parent government fights back. Either the parent government wins and and the mafia is destroyed (see USA), or the mafia wins and the parent government is taken over (see Mexico)
>>44263950
Okay. And the mafia wants to take down the parts of law enforcement that oppose it.
>>44263983
It's not a subversion. It's just a continuation of government. When you use words like subvert or corrupt or whatever you are just forming a moral judgment. Which is fine, but it's also irrelevant in this context. We aren't talking about what's right or wrong.
>>44263960
>But the mafia is part of the government.
Again
>I explicitly quoted >>44263601 as explicitly what I was counter arguing against with that, the claim that a government that has not been subverted will allow a mafia because a mafia provides it with "useful services"
Mafias all try to subvert the parent government. The parent government fights back. Either the parent government wins and and the mafia is destroyed (see USA), or the mafia wins and the parent government is taken over (see Mexico)
The claim that an UNsubverted government of whom the mafia is not a part of will allow a mafia to control an area because the mafia is providing the government with "userful services" is what I argrued against.
>>44263997
>When you use words like subvert or corrupt or whatever you are just forming a moral judgment
Mafia techniques for government subversion are literally threats, extortion, and bribery.
Also, fuck you with your post morality bullshit
>>44263998
The mafia is an unofficial part of the government, otherwise it wouldn't be a mafia in the first place. It would be a bunch of guerrillas in a forest.
>>44264006
>Mafia techniques for government subversion are literally threats, extortion, and bribery.
The same goes for official governments. They just call it legal threats and taxes instead. Same thing.
>>44264011
>The mafia is an unofficial part of the government, otherwise it wouldn't be a mafia in the first place. It would be a bunch of guerrillas in a forest.
FALSE
No mafia starts out as an unofficial part of the government. It starts out as a criminal enterprise in some city or town, which then tries to become an unofficial part of the government for its own protection from the government.
Furthermore, again, my claim was against anon who EXPLICITLY argued that a mafia that is NOT trying to become an unofficial part of the government will be allowed to be because they provide a "useful service". similar to how strawberry manufacturers are allowed to be because they provide a useful service, even though they are not an unofficial part of the government
>>44264046
>No mafia starts out as an unofficial part of the government.
No legitimate government starts out as an official government either.
Still the same fucking thing.
>>44264022
And lobbying.
>>44264022
>The same goes for official governments. They just call it legal threats and taxes instead. Same thing.
FALSE.
Governments do not use "legal threats and taxes" to acquire control of the rulership positions. They use those to regulate the populace once they already have the rulership position
They are either formed willingly by the people, or they use the threat of outright violence (dictatorships).
And again, you say that like it matters. Like you are trying to twist my words into "government good, mafia bad" when it was literally "mafia is government, big government does not tolerate little government muscling in on its turf"
>>44264054
>No legitimate government starts out as an official government either.
1. You are a retard
2. Some do
3. What the fuck does it have to do with the argument? Seriously holy fucking crap you are a fucking motherfucking piece of shit cum gargling RETARD!
You are spewing the most retarded argument and they have literally nothing to do with anything. What the fuck does it even have to do with your assertion that "hurr durr you used the word corrupt, therefore you are calling them evil" when they are literally working via corruption or "DURR DURR a government is just a mafia so therefore your observation of how one many will not tolerate another is wrong because HURR DURR POST MORALITY!"
You fucking piece of motherfucking shit, I can't believe I wasted whole minutes of my life arguing with a shit like you.
>>44264098
>"mafia is government, big government does not tolerate little government muscling in on its turf"
They do, because it just becomes another part of the government. They couldn't do that without being tolerated.
This is literally how mafias operate. Your "little government" scenario isn't talking about a mafia.
The proof that mafias are tolerated by governments is inherent in their existence.
>2. Some do
Unless you can come up with an example I'm just going to return the favor of calling me a retard for no reason and say that you're the retarded one here.
Retard.
>3. What the fuck does it have to do with the argument?
I don't know. I was responding to what you were saying.
Are you confused, anon? Go back up and read your post.
Retard.
Can we just fucking agree that the different persons in the government are either part of the organised crime or trying to take it down, and leave it at that?
You two insulting each other over stupid things is completly pointless. Even if you consider the other person to be idiotic, argueing with idiots is at best a masochistic experience.
>>44263997
>When you use words like subvert or corrupt or whatever you are just forming a moral judgment.
There's no inherent moral implication with subversion or corruption.
>>44264127
>Unless you can come up with an example
Not this guy, but the Roman Empire
>>44264160
Don't be an idiot, anon. It's literally impossible for a government to already be official when it was conceived. Sure, it can be a really fast process, but it's still a process.
"Hundreds of guys depended on Paulie and he got a piece of everything they made. And it was tribute, just like in the old country, except they were doing it here in America. And all they got from Paulie was protection from other guys looking to rip them off. And that's what it's all about. That's what the FBI could never understand. That what Paulie and the organization does is offer protection for people who can't go to the cops. That's it. That's all it is. They're like the police department for wiseguys."
-Henry Hill, Goodfellas
>>44262696
IIRC, Rincewind gets the initial blow to the head but since the student fucked it up that student is the one that the instructor demonstrates on
>>44264243
I'm pretty sure the teacher demonstrate on Rincewind, then the student tries again
>>44264192
Mobs don't usually own jails tho. (unless your Mexico or Russia) They just kill you if you fuck with them.
>>44264192
Yeah, it's so nice of the violent oppressors to stop other violent oppressors from stealing their milk cow, am I right?
Bit confused here. Are you taking my movie quote as some kind of defense of the Mafia as nice people?
>>44261141
Because the government is a literal kleptocracy?
>>44265119
Which one
>>44261141
Extremely unfair distribution of wealth and high amount of poverty, a group of vigilantes robbing the rich while aiding the poor.
>>44265022
No, I'm just saying the movie quote is pretty funny when you look at it factually
>>44263595
You should look up what old mining companies did.
>>44265129
The one in OP's hypothetical town.
I just figured that if the Thieves' guild ran the place, it'd be a kleptocracy.
>>44265245
Not really to much work for not enough returns, liabilities, and risks if they fail
>>44263595 >>44263612 >>44263627
>I thought the "coupon" thing was the most flagrant.
Basically company towns, but on a city+ scale.
>>44265185 this. Often down to the coupons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
>>44265652
how do you like muh coupons
