>Martials start off at an incredibly realistic level
>Birthright and extreme amounts of training can allow martials to perform clearly inhuman feats
>Requires an almost autistic level of swing sword 2 hit gud
>This strength can be augmented with magical artifacts.
>Mages are physically weak.
>Magic takes years to study, and the mage is unable to act while channelling magic.
>Magic has a truly impressive amount of miscellaneous/utility uses
>A little bit of magic is still enough to contribute to the party.
>Magic can unleash utter devastation on the scale of natural disasters, but it leaves the caster completely helpless and comes with it's own dangers.
This setting is objectively the most balanced for Caster/Martial balance.
>>44244352
No news anon, however anima triggers /tg/'s autism.
Technician master race, casters swerve.
>>44244455
Tao stronk!
Also my Tao/Warrior Mentalist (Physical increment) is stronkest!
>>44244557
>Mentalism
I too enjoy being basically a level 6 character all the game long!
Also hope they release gates already and get to fix fucking summoning and mentalism into more normal things.
>>44244352
>>44244352
This may not be a popular opinion among players, but as a GM I don't care about balance in my PnP. Look at real life, some things are just better than others. Some people are just smarter, some more talented etc. It's not an MMO though, it's a small game with 2-6 players. Achieve consensus and play for the fun of it. If you want to be powerful, pick a powerful class, if you want to be sneaky be sneaky. Just make the game fun, wtf is so hard about that?
>>44244571
I doo enjoy having my physical stats in 16 all day long though.
>>44244604
Anyone who holds this opinion has never had a powergamer at their table.
>>44244604
Because is hard to have fun when you're completely outclasses and you can't bring anything relevant to the table
>>44244604
There's always going to be some level of imbalance in games. No system is totally balanced, and there's always going to be Roleplaying differences like one guy playing a wealthy nobleman with social power and another guy playing a grizzled veteran of war who basically lives like a drunk hobo. The collaborative nature of tabletop accounts for that.
Where balance is an issue is when one player invalidates the existence of another. The martial/caster power split wouldn't be so bad if martials had a thing they did or a role they had to fill, even if they were less powerful than magic users. A lot of games manage to do this. Unfortunately, 3.x has martials that serve no role. Magic users can do everything they're capable of doing with magic. Picking a fighter or another martial isn't choosing to play a slightly weaker role, it's choosing to be useless. What's worse is that this choice is masqueraded within the game as a viable option for player characters. If it was straight up and said that people that don't use magic at all are plebs and NPCs and made all character options at least a bit magical, then everything would be fine.
>>44244352
You limit mages to a single school or type of magic. They still get broken toys, just now they don't get ALL the broken toys and can't replace every other member of the party on their own.
Unfortunately I haven't seen any systems that actually enforce this, even though you can apply it to most systems with casters and it works better than any sort of "re-balancing" ever does.In before retards suggest autismal work-arounds like summoners summoning burning helium from the sun to cast fireballs.
>>44244621
Enjoy having 0 secondaries anon, i'm pretty sure that brown thing is chocolate tree.
>>44244604
>>44244604
>Want to be strong fighty man
>Mage's summon is stronger and more fighty.
>Cleric and druid are twice as strong as me AND have magic.
Wow, so fucking fun.
>>44244352
We get it, you like your shitty edgy teen mango. Now take it to the proper board
>>44244705
>Play anima
>Walk towards mage
>he casts spell
>Parry spell
>Break his neck
>This ends the wizard menace
>>44244632
Not him, but if you have a powergamer, you have a player problem, not a game system problem.
My favourite instance of balanced imbalance is Wild Talents, where a normal starting character could get (rather build it with the great power creation system) the power to shut down the sun (or any nuke for that matter).
The problem is when you start treating RPGs like war games; everything boils down to power levels and combat. In my honest opinion, D&D's biggest fault is that EVERYONE is a master of combat. The wizard slings hurty spells, the barbarian swings hurty axe, the rogue stabs with hurty dagger, even the fucking cleric smashes shit to pieces.
My point is, is not about rolling dice and being the toughest motherfucker. It's about creating an interesting story. Who gives a shit if one character is a world-class superhero while the other one is a regular cop, as long as the story is engaging and everyone's having fun?
The fact that many people don't understand that is why there's so many that guy stories.
>>44244701
>Enjoy having 0 secondaries anon
Not really
>>44244736
>not a game system problem
How to spot the 3.5D&Drone!
>>44244756
>Mixed class
>Having secondaries
>>44244604
>>44244604
Watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw
Does this situation sound fun for both players?
>>44244764
have you fucking read the rest of the post you fucking austistic shitlord
I dont even like 3.5
>>44244736
>D&D's biggest fault is that EVERYONE is a master of combat
Not everyone, only casters, rogue is shit, fighter is shit, monk is the shittiest shit, and druid laughs at them because he turns into a bear, his companion is a bear and can summon bears making your martials nigh useless
D&D is an awful system full of imbalance shit that appears even without tying
>>44244781
Yes, I did.
It's basically
>3.5D&Drone spergs in rage at his system being shit and him having a shit-tier retard mentality
I thank god that mess of a system exist, it contains the human garbage that are it's """FANS"""
>>44244784
You forgot
>Samurai
>>44244784
I meant that more like "combatant", as in everyone fights. There's no being a defenseless diplomat, a wise old healer... If it is a D&D character, it must be able to kill stuff.
>>44244778
See, there's a rule that if you have enough Dex+Agi over your enemies you get awesome bonuses, so I could spare some dps from primaries, also I only picked one discipline and a couple of powers (the ones that increase stats) so I could spare some pds from secondaries. I also started as a Tao, and the introverted patron helps a lot, srly, is not that hard to have some secondaries.
>>44244699
Honestly, This.
I saw some anons mention it like a year ago and have been doing it in Pathfinder ever since. My players bitch incessantly, but they seem to end up having more fun in the end because the games are more tense and they're forced to use their creativity more. It take a bit of adjusting, like "Resist Element" could probably fit into Abjuration or Transmutation and probably should be allowed to a practitioner of either school, but that's usually pretty easy to figure out on the fly.
Unfortunately it's a bit harder to enforce on classes like Clerics and Druids who don't have "schools" like wizards do... and a whole party of casters still fucks the game over hardcore if they know how to work together.
>>44244833
>Shy giant tao brickhouse
This makes me laugh.
>>44244621
>16 in all physical stats
How?
I always liked WoT's caster/martial balance
>you can be as awesome a caster as you want.
>won't stop an assassin from killing you with an arrow.
>you'd need a martial with heightened reflexes and senses for that.
Also, there are plenty of magical items that martials can use to even the playing field, and plenty of prestige classes for martials that put them on par with casters.Fuckin Perrin with his late game hax.
>>44244910
Physical increase, level up increase, 3 ki regen+the physical augment kiability, magic items, it's all normal exceptthe fact ki doesn't regenerate when you use it
>>44244862
To this day, I think the adventures of metal arm man and his metal bro is the only shounen I've seen that doesn't fall into the rut of training arcs and asspull powerups.
>>44244940
>it's all normal except the fact ki doesn't regenerate when you use it
Doesn't regenerate for the stat you use it, but you can incease some stat, wait, increase another, wait, etc...you'll end with less ki because the last stat removes the ki for it, but still some ki.
>>44244979
Stat increase drains from that pool(each 5 or so rounds, but normally you should have enough for any run in, and even then 12+ on each physical stat is huge), if you're using ki-unification it doesn't regen up while using as it's a singular pool.
>Implying any DJ will know about this
I'm attempting to balance casters myself in DnD-like systems by giving them better low-power combat tools and less stupidly overpowered ones. This means they can actually focus on what they are good at; utility and magical support as opposed to just preparing combat spells and forcing the party to stop and rest after every fight.
Essentially now magic users get to use a Wand or staff as a magical weapon. These fire out either 'Blasts' or 'Stun' attacks at range, which require a ranged attack roll. Staves are more powerful but Wands allow the Wizard to add his dexterity modifier to the hit roll among being easier to conceal.
Casting any leveled spell takes a number of rounds equal to the spell's level- so a Cone of Cold would take 3 rounds to cast. This is why magical 'artillery' actually makes sense using this system, as they need to be heavily defended to make use of really big spells. Also spells like this would get buffed in this system and spells like sleep would be nerfed or thrown out completely.
Using this, Wizards become much more active in fights but still have their crazy magical powers. You can also accomplish making the game more balanced, mostly, by changing the spells and giving more cool shit to non-magic users.
I am not a fan of martials being supernaturally strong or powerful on their own, so magic users are taken down a notch to respect this. I believe this really helps destroy the class divide and makes the team more complete.
The best
>>44245069
>t.Oldberto barbossa
>>44245024
>Essentially now magic users get to use a Wand or staff as a magical weapon
Yer gay as shit m8
![tumblr_lzmif8noBe1rnxe6ho1_1280[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/9YJONuo.jpg "tumblr_lzmif8noBe1rnxe6ho1_1280[1].jpg")
>>44245024
Druids are often spooky and mysterious.
>>44244956
The only filler chapter that I can remember in FMA is the one where a woman is giving birth in an isolated farm, and even that one provided some character development. There's a reason it ended after 20 books despite his success instead of going on like most mangas; the author knew how to pace.
>>44245222
>His success
The author was a chick. Why do you think there were so many tall, dark and handsome men with a relatively low number of waifus?
>>44245131
Why?
Wizards are often seen as using wands or staves in art and literature, and they are classic. Why not give them a purpose? If they act like a weapon then you can find better versions of them, instead of Wizards just getting better combat potential for just being there and leveling up. Plus they can now be disarmed a bit.
Secondly, freeing up the Wizard's moveset from pure combat spells means now they can do more mystical other shit.
And finally; you telling me right now you don't like Harry Potter wizards going pew pew and firing magical beams and blasts everywhere? It's cool, flavorful, good game balance; you have no reason to dislike it except for muh nostalgia.
>>44245264
The author being a chick doesn't immediately mean the waifus will be missing.
![2434015-hiromuarakawa_1[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/uaELEgz.png "2434015-hiromuarakawa_1[1].png")
>>44245264
Sorry, english isn't my native language, and author is a purely masculine word where I'm from.
And the author isn't a chick, she's a cow. Get your farm animals straight!;)
>>44245264
If you thought FMA was husbando-heavy, you should take a look at her version of The Heroic Legend of Arslan.
>>44245343
Damn right.
>>44244657
Then as the GM I have failed to provide you with opportunities to shine in whichever field your character has specialized.
Also, you and the group should have an idea of how your party works together. If it's a hack and slash and you decided to be a special snowflake and play a pixie... well, we should have sorted that out before we started.
>>44244705
Strong fighty man should know is place in the pecking order. You picked a fighty class, if you wanted to max damage, you should have picked the caster. No reason you can't have a party full of casters if it's that kind of game.
>>44244736
This guy gets it.
>>44245590
And then we get back to the classic problem of "If you wanted X, you should have been a caster."
>>44244780
Maybe he shouldn't have decided to play BMX man, or maybe Angel Summoner shouldn't have been allowed in this campaign. This shit's not hard, just talk to each other before you start.
>>44245572
Or maybe is the system's fault for having shit like clerics and druids being better in ABSOLUTELY every field than fighters, barbarians, monks, etc? nah, sure is either player's or GM's
>>44245633
Or perhaps 3.5 is flawed for putting Angel Summoner and BMX bandit on the same level?
>>44245626
And what? Life's not fair, why should an RPG be? At least in an RPG you can play what you want. If your only goal is getting the max damage possible out of every attack in combat, play the caster. How is this hard? Why in the world should Man With Stick be as badass as Guy Who Can Literally Disintegrate Things?
>replace all mages with Psions and Wilders
>replace all martials with Initiators
So much shit is solved. I restrict Wizards and shit to NPC classes. There isn't a single caster archetype, bar maybe clerics, that can't be mimicked by a Psionic class unless you have a book fetish.
>>44245663
RURMRMRMRM.
No?
It's DM's or player's fault!
>>44245641
It is tho.
>>44245663
3.5 has nothing to do with it. This is in every system to any degree where autists can min/max the game. Find players/friends that go with the spirit of the game, black list the powergamers. Again, not hard.
Every time this stupid thread comes up it's like... wait. Do you all just play pick up games online or something? Bring your existing character over into different sessions with different GMs or something? Like every session? It's really the only way these complaints make sense.
>>44245680
I'm not playing fantasy to play real life, I'm playing fantasy to evade real life.
>>44245734
Cool, so play with like-minded players and this isn't a problem.
>>44245680
Because it's not at all fitting for myths. Casters in myths were all shit unless they had amazing divine blood, while martials were running around performing amazing feats.
There is no reason for magic and martials to be unbalanced aside from wizard wank.
>>44245720
Here's the thing, fucko:
How to be better than everyone who can't cast spells as someone who can in D&D3.5:
SHOW UP.
That's all.
>>44245748
That is true. Plenty of other d20-based campaign settings use low magic. It's the players and DM that decide that though. Trying to force a low magic campaign by picking a fighter and getting pissed at the casters is fucking stupid.
>>44245771
And when being better than everyone matters, do that. But if that's how you validate your self-worth then you have problems that have nothing to do with the game system.
>>44245783
A high-magic campaign shouldn't' necessarily mean that martials are useless.
>>44245343
I remember in one of the volumes she answered a fan question of "why do you draw waifus and husbandos" in so many words, her response was "men should be jacked, women should be va-va-voom"
>>44245804
This, cannon fodder is always useful
>>44245798
Half the fun of teamwork is contributing and working together to defeat a common foe.
>>44245804
This, the prime example of this is in this thread too.
>anima
>>44245804
No, but a blind man may need to figure out some new tricks if he's fighting people that can see. It's not always about "I attack" and roll some dice. Think; it's a game of imagination, not just rules.
>>44245820
Ah, good old political incorrectness and zero concern for hurting the feelings of people who can't live up to societal ideals... Despite all my weeaboo hate, I do admire that anime has the balls to be like that sometimes.
If a high level caster can summon meteor I believe a high level martial can cut that meteor.
>>44245844
>J-JUST HOMERULE IT!!!
Honesty martial should go by One Piece rules, you punch/cut/ stab things enough times you can punch/cut/stab anything
>>44245844
Yes, which fits in with OP's image of Berserk. The MC does far more than just swing a sword.
Combat shouldn't just be "Creature rolls against death" ad infinum. Martials and Casters should be able to both perform superhuman acts.
I can't understand the retards who think that it's 'realistic' to summon a meteor, but it's weeaboo/bullshit for a martial to punch a meteor.
>>44245871
>If in your travels you encounter God, god will be cut.
>>44244455
No thread should have to be /thread'd so early...
>>44245871
Not in D&D I tell you
>D&D and D&D clones plague the rpg industry making the "well, duh, it's magic so it should be better than a dude with a stick" be the average way of thinking
I don't want to be in this universe anymore
>>44245820
>Men should be jacked
>Main character is basically a shota
>Titus
>Hakuryu
>Ja'far
>Alibaba
Yeah, OK. Manly men right there.
>>44245872
>>44245888
I'm not talking about homerules or or new abilities. I'm talking about equipment, tricks, and techniques. Be clever about it. If you're not clever, then play a caster because this challenge is not for you.
Casters have weaknesses, so exploit them. So do most monsters, and eventually a caster will run out of spells. If the DM is running the game right, it will happen often enough that the martials need to pick up the slack.
>>44244604
It depends. In some styles of game, balance it totally necessary. In others, it isn't.
The thing is, D&D has always been sort of vague about what kind of style of game it's meant to be, and over time the editions have changed the style of game it's aimed for. This causes a lot of confusion that often makes talking about this stuff quite difficult, since often different people have different ideas about which style is the "correct" one, or are only familiar with one style and are totally ignorant of the others. So often people can think a game or particular mechanic is bad when really it's just designed to cater to a game style they're unfamiliar with.
With that said, 3.5 is a genuinely badly designed game, because it's largely designed for a style of game that does need the classes to be balanced, and they aren't.
>>44245938
Look at the good side, shitty players that get brainwashed won't end up in your non-D&D games.
>>44245844
See, that sounds all nice and dandy, but casters can also use "imagination" so they have the same options outside the system's mechanics, plus ALL the options in the system's mechanics, which means martials still fall behind hard.
>>44245945
Obviously if you aren't jacked you still only qualify as a boy.
>>44245945
I think the gist was
>butifel men and butifel women, because fuck you.
>>44245948
>Be clever about it.
99.99% of times this means
>DM
>JUST HOMERULE MY COMBAT UP
or the 0.001% of the time this problem DOES NOT FUCKING EXIST.
Also
>Powergamers and wizards can't use strats or be smart
>because this trumps my argument!!
>>44245968
Are you playing PvP? Because it doesn't make sense if the party is a team.
>>44245948
You can pop as many wheelies as you like or upgrade to a mountain bike, but the BMX bandit is never going to compete with the Angel Summoner, no matter how clever his plans are.
>>44245995
>Okay, so I'm going to do my sick BMX trick!
>K.
>Did you summon invisible angels to help me
>Y.
TEEEEAAAAMMMMPLAAAAYYYY WAOOOOW.
Idiot.
>>44246003
Don't forget angel summoner angel's are also invisible, so he can do an even sicker BMX bandit with "imagination".
>>44245995
>So my rogue is going to infil...
>Wait a minute, why? my caster uses divination to investigate
>Well, so my rogue is going to talk to thi...
>Wait a minute, why? my caster uses this enchantment to get fuck huge bonuses to any social interation
>Well...my rogue is going to sta...
>Wait a minute, why? I cast this spell that kills him for sure
>Fuck this, my rogue commits sep...
>Wait a minute, why? I just disentegrate you
This is the problem in D&D, when whatever you do, you do it worse than the fucking casters why are you even there?
>>44245989
B-b-but Anon! What about The men who aren't ripped assholes? What about the women who are fat ugly cows! They have feelings too!
I'd make a joke about sexuality representation too... but I'm pretty sure Judar, Yuunan, and that one manly "hostess" have that shit covered.
Good thing I will never be playing a game with you retards....
>>44245720
The thing is, in some games, in fact, in some editions of D&D, power-gaming is "the spirit of the game." You are supposed to do it. In these cases, the fact that power-gaming ruins the game, is a sign of a badly designed game.
Basically, if a game isn't about power-gaming, you shouldn't be able to do it, or doing it shouldn't ruin the game. And if a game is about power-gaming, then you should be able to do it without ruining the game. A game where you can power-game, and it ruins the game if you do, is a badly designed game.
>>44246044
>They have feelings too!
Good, they should be sad and stop being ugly as sin.
Or not care.
>>44246059
nanananana, I can't hear you, it's all either DM's or player's fault! games are perfect always.
>>44246059
What the game is or isn't about is totally up to the players, that's my point. If your party caster is an asshat that's cock blocking you at every turn, your problem is the player.
>>44246035
Don't forget the omnipotent plothole and how people try to twist it and sperg trying to make sense of it.
This is how you ACTUALLY FUCKING FIX D&D
>Ban all non-caster classes, use it only for magic campaigns since non-caster is also super interesting "I charge and full attack. Can't charge? Full attack!"
>>44245938
You know, this really only applies to 3.5.
>>44246035
Wizards only have so many spells per day, correct? And these spells have to be prepared ahead of time, correct?
>>44245862
I dare say that if you find a piece of media offensive you can just not consume it.
I bit the bait didn't I?
>>44246035
I've never played with a caster that both prepared all his spells to be better than one person, or was that prepared that he didn't not use some spells.
>>44246118
What bait? I agree with you. That was the POINT.
Just sorta sad that anime manages to understand this simple fact alot more often than western media.
>>44246109
>Wizard can't cast spells
>Hey anon what are you doing?
>Looking at the sky
>Why?
>Because I have no spells so my class is now useless!
Also
>cleric and druid lol
>>44244778
>no secondaries
>what are NB and NL from Core Exxet
>>44245945
>shotas: Edward, Envy
>baras: Bradley, Armstrong, Scar, The teachers husband, Sloth, Hohenheim
Ok
>>44246109
Not really and not really.
And even if this is the case, the former only happens at first levels, and the second is completely moot because some spells are so fucking good and work on so many situations it hurts
>>44246154
Dude... he wasn't even talking about the same anime. Magi is not Full Metal Alchemist (although it IS written by a woman).
>>44246085
>What the game is or isn't about is totally up to the players
If you're playing freeform, sure. If you aren't, then no.
The rules of a game, are meant to make the game better. If they don't, then why use them? The point of rules is that using them is more fun than not using them. If you can follow the rules and still ruin the game, then the rules are not doing their job. If following the rules of game gives no benefit over freeform, then it is a badly designed game.
>>44246085
>If your party caster is an asshat that's cock blocking you at every turn, your problem is the player.
He can only do that in a game that is designed to let him do that. Change the game and the problem goes away. Ergo, the problem only existed because of the game being badly designed. If you can play a different game with the same player and have fun then it's not the player that's at fault, it's the game.
>>44246109
That's what wands are for.
>>44245862
That's got nothing to do with political correctness or a lack of it. Go back to /pol/
>>44245572
Name a situation a Fighter can shine and display their specialties in that a Druid can't.
>>44246331
Even I'm not degenerate enough for /pol/. That place takes actual mental disabilities to be part of.
>>44244736
You're completely missing why Wild Talents can work despite being hugely imbalanced and why 3.5's problems are there.
Yes everyone in D&D should learn to kill things because D&D is at its heart a game about dungeon crawling, killing monsters, getting loot and going back into town. The mechanics are built to reinforce this. Anyone who says that's not ALL D&D is good for are basically trying to make pottery with a plank of wood.
So when 3.5 has classes who're objectively better than others at basically everything that's a problem because the game tells you through its narrative that you SHOULD have a mixed party and that classes are basically the same.
Wild Talents brand of "these powers are absolutely insane if you power game so try to use them wisely" fits for a Supers Game at least somewhat and most importantly the utter insanity you can achieve isn't suddenly taken away because of an early on decision you make at character creation.
You don't suddenly lose the ability to have half the options in the book because you say "I wanna be a fighter" in Wild Talents.
>>44246388
Talking to a King that will only talk to those who can wear metal armor
>>44246273
Go play vidya if that's your problem. Blaming a game for your inability to get along with people is like the definition of autism.
>>44246143
>NB NL
>Enough for competent secondaries
>>44246408
You're still a bad person and a shitposter. Please leave.
>>44246388
Practically any situation in a urban area where there are legal repercussions for summoning a horde of bears in a barfight. Or if you need to keep a low profile. Seriously, why does the answer to everything have to be "I unleash my full power at the enemy" around here?
>>44246085
>If your party caster is an asshat that's cock blocking you at every turn, your problem is the player.
The problem isn't that he's cockblocking the problem is that he's the convenient answer.
"We can't get across this gap. I know! I'll tie a rope to this arrow and fire it at a post. Now hopefully my use rope skill is high and that the wood on the other side won't come apart or I'll-"
"Or I could cast fly?"
"There's a Balor!"
"Alright guys this is gonna be a hard as shit fight. I'll go in swinging with my sword, charging to deal maximum damage on the first turn. The Rogue will attempt to hide to get a sneak attack against him which the Balor hopefully won't spot with his spot check. Either way the Cleric will have to cast fire resistance on all of us and also keep me healed so we can keep-"
"Or I could cast baleful polymorph on it?"
Any party who has a wizard who has a spell that can insta-glib the encounter is gonna logically go with him on it. The only reason they wouldn't is because of the very meta-game reason that the Wizard doesn't want it to be all about him at which point all it takes is things to head south even a little for him to go "FINE I GUESS I'LL SOLVE EVERYTHING"
>>44246565
>Or if you need to keep a low profile
Sure is a good thing that Druid can do things like summon a bunch of plants to bind the opponents, hit them with exploding fruit then turn into a mouse and scurry away.
>>44246584
In those cases, the it's the GM that's the problem. I'll tell you right now that doesn't happen in my games, and it's not hard to avoid.
>>44246423
A Fighter isn't exactly going to have the points free to specialize into diplomacy, so they both fail this one.
>>44246565
>Barfight
Cast entangle. Fight over, nobody gets hurt.
>Low profile
Yeah, a hulking dude in armor is much less conspicuous than a bird
>>44246609
>>Where'd all these vines and fruit come from? Detect Magic shows some strong lingering magic traces. Must be druids... get the kill squad, track them down.
OR: Fighter and monk beat them up. Pour some alcohol on them and sprinkle some crack around.
>>Just a brawl, move along.
>>44246609
No, because in my game fruits are forbidden by the law and the town is full of cats
>>44246443
That's not even a counter-argument, that's just ad hominem. This isn't about social skills. It's about game design. If a game has options that players can choose that ruins that game, that game is badly designed. You see, it doesn't have to have those options. Those options could be designed differently, so that they don't ruin the game.
A game that has options that ruin it is more badly designed than one that doesn't have options that ruin it. This is very simple.
>>44246654
Sometimes there are reasons to remove your armor. Again with the dumb murderhobo mentality. Why do you guys play these games when you are clearly bad at them?
>>44246610
>I'll tell you right now that doesn't happen in my games
That's circumstantial evidence though.
And why should we hold YOUR experiences to some invisible standard compared to our own?
And furthermore speaking AS a GM I already have enough on my plate building a story, balancing encounters, divvying up loot as I see fairly and keeping players engaged to have to look at EVERY SINGLE SPELL ON THE WIZARDS SHEET every time he rests and think "Can he use any of these to trivialize an encounter I've set up for him?"
>>44246661
>monk
>beating anything
Isn't a grown up man beating toddlers a crime in your universe? because I can't really think of any other shit a monk can defeat
>>44246680
>>Wah, my controller is messed up, that's why you won.
That's you. That's what you sound like.
>>44245945
Ehat Chinese cartoon is this? It's by the creator of FMA? Is it good?
>>44246610
How is the gm responsible for that? Go on, try, (and inevitably fail,) to justify your bullshit, it will amuse me.
>>44246584
In theory.
In actual play, this is no more likely than the useless caster scenario is.
>>44245024
>to cast high level spells, wizards need to stand still doing nothing for a few rounds
>this makes magic classes more active.
I don't know, I think you're not really getting how it would play out.
>>44246704
>That's circumstantial evidence though.
So is the previous argument you know. The potential is there, but that does not mean the potential happens every single time. there are too many GM ways to make it NOT happen for it to be a fact that "caster wins everything forever" is a realistic argument.
>>44246719
The GM literally describes every scenario, controls all the results and rules on the outcomes. If he's incapable of designing a scenario where the martials have things to do, you have a bad GM. I pity you if all you've ever known are shitty GMs.
>>44246584
>"Or I could cast baleful polymorph on it?"
Sure, bearing in mind it has to be DC 32 for the caster to have a 50/50 chance of succeeding
And is a fairly small gap (If a rope+arrow'll let you get over it) even meant to be a challenge at level 5+?
>>44246711
Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic
Magi: The Kingdom of Magic (Season 2)
Magi (The Manga)
It's not made by the creator of FMA, no. As for how good it is... eh, I best compare it to Avatar the Last Airbender. When it's good and dealing with serious issues, it's really REALLY good... the rest of the time it's kinda meh...
>>44246755
Give me a realistic scenario where the martials are able to do something that casters can not, barring an anti-magic field that only affect spell casting, and not magic items.
>>44246686
A fighter with or without armor is exactly as conspicuous as a Druid if not more. If they're the same one wearing heavy armor, they're focused on Strength over Dex, while a Druid can have Dex freely.
They're both going to be about even disguising themselves and blending in, except a Druid might have higher Dex, can turn into animals, and isn't helpless if somebody catches him without his armor.
So again, what are situations where a Fighter can do what a Druid can't?
>>44246787
Winning a who has more consonants in the class's name contest. See, Fighter stronk.
>>44246708
You're either really dense or a troll. Either way, I pity you.
>>44246704
>circumstantial
I think you meant to say anecdotal.
>>44246706
Sick children.
Small sized non-magical mammals.
The very elderly.
Probably a pretty big dog.
>>44246749
> there are too many GM ways to make it NOT happen
how
How is the GM suppose to make the wizard NOT trump an encounter without being an asshat and saying "Antimagic field" every time.
... the only way I can see is to conveniently have another wizard distract him a bunch. Which might come off natural once or twice but after a while "Another Wizard" quickly turns into Naraku's bees and suddenly your writing is on the quality of Inuyasha.
>>44246584
What actually happens in 3.5
>Lmao the arrow can't hold your fat armored ass
Cleric: Chillax bruvah, mah LG dudesky godesky gives me a pegasus to carry us
Druid: Ayyy lemme call the eagles they're mah niggas
>There is a balor
Cleric: E'eryone, take a chillpill, imma gunna frag this fuckin' charlie *charges in with divine metamagic'd protection from evil and divine might, making him cleric, the good fighter in, #wrekts the balor*
Druid: Ayyy smoke sum greenies ppl *becomes a bear and tag teams the balor with fat bear cock and magikz*
>>44244593
>a world in which magic exist
>there are mundane characters
>in such a place it is unrealistic for non-magic users to perform supernatural or preternatural actions
This is the problem. You are defaulting casters to mary sues when you do this shit.
The simple solution as always is to design the skill system so martial classes have more access to it.
Study of magic invariably takes time and draws you away from mortal concerns. Wizards aren't going to be as good at dungeoneering, persuasion, or streecraft as a rogue or fighter would be.
Encounters should be balanced so the skills that wizards do have access to are rarely used (arcana should sometimes be useful, but not for the vast majority of problems).
In other words: Wizards should solve problems with a lot of really narrow tools (spells).
Martials should solve problems with a few widely applicable tools (skill checks).
>>44246706
Unchained monks are fucking brutal. They make the fighter wish he were half the martial combatant an UCMonk is.
>>44246737
>Each turn you channel mana
>Depending on your channel mana ability you get better spells for free (one per round) so you're not a sitting duck
>You're a squishy shit, so you get a fat burly tanky fighterman to back you while you cast disintegrate
This is literally the best option.
>>44246781
Run powerful party through a few good encounters, deplete spells and charges, make enemies target magic items and users like smart opponents not cannon fodder. Enforce casting times, spell slots, spells per day and components. Don't allow them to rest or recuperate, keep the pressure on. Now hit them with a mundane challenge.
>>44246944
Yeah... until you get to the levels where enchanted weapons become a thing and you're still trying to punch things.
You're not OnePunch Man, sorry.
>>44246680
>If a game has options that players can choose that ruins that game, that game is badly designed.
>options that ruins
>game is badly designed
Your grammar is badly designed and ruin your sentence structure.
>>44246756
>And is a fairly small gap (If a rope+arrow'll let you get over it) even meant to be a challenge at level 5+?
Okay stop and think for a second.
WHY is that considered a trivial encounter at level 5?
Why would a sizable gap at level 5 stop being an issue for players of that level? Is it because of the fighter? No he doesn't have much of a means to cross by himself.
The rogue? Hrrmmm maybe but it'd still be tricky for him to get across. A lot could go wrong for him even if he has climbing equipment.
So then why? Oh yes. Because the Wizard knows fly or the party should naturally have flying magic items at this level. Which just goes to show you how "magic can solve everything" changes the tone of a setting and puts undue value onto the ones who directly use magic.
>>44246850
And now you're calling me a troll. Classic blame shifter in action. Nothing is ever your fault right?
>>44246978
The fighter can jump and has the strength to climb well with just masterwork climbing gear and taking 10, ignoring the fact he may well have actual ranks in climb too. Rogue might have a bit more difficulty but shouldn't have too much trouble (grappling hook and climb). For both characters getting over the gap is little more than packing the correct equipment then describing how they do it.
>>44247026
>The fighter can jump and has the strength to climb well with just masterwork climbing gear and taking 10, ignoring the fact he may well have actual ranks in climb too.
In heavy armor? Really?
>Rogue might have a bit more difficulty but shouldn't have too much trouble (grappling hook and climb). For both characters getting over the gap is little more than packing the correct equipment then describing how they do it.
Okay now imagine an enemy attacks you while you're crossing.
Suddenly everything is terrifying... unless you're a wizard in which case the worst thing you do is go "I land where I started".
>>44246963
Everyone dies or goes back home.
That's what happens. People seem to fucking forget that HP is a resource.
>>44247070
Yes, god forbid you might have to take off your armor sometimes.
>>44246892
1: Limitation of magic items.
99% of casters being overpowered is free and easy access to magic items. A GM who limits who gets what magic items can make it impossible for the caster to get easy Dc boosts and Caster Level boosts. Without those, casters can no longer one-shot everything.
2: Smart enemies.
Nothing fucks up a caster more than people being not where they can be hit by single spells such as color spray, lightning bolt, dazing fireballs, what have you. Enemies that actually make plans like, "If the caster starts to cast, shoot him from behind the rock, while the rest of us close in, Joe," will make a mess out of any caster's capacity to do harm. Players do it all the time, why can't the enemies?
3: Knowing what mosnters to throw at your players.
In PF there's a section at the very back of the book, called "Monster Roles." You throw a skilled monster at a caster, and more than likely it's going to kill him, not through straight combat, but because it's smart, sneaky, and vicious. A choker can make a mid level caster's day into living hell. And before you trot out "these magic items prevent it" see number 1, and then remember that there are dozens of magic items that COULD help, but a caster isn't going to have every single item on the lists eithe since he has to pick and choose what he has available at any given time.
4: Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's probable.
Just because a caster has the potential to cast every spell in the book, doesn't mean he has access to them or can cast them all. The people who say "a caster with only 4 spells known per level can still break the game over their knee" is ignorant of what actually happens in games. The "I'll divine where everythign is and go in with all the approrpiate spells ready" idealized caster is just that - an idealized caster that doesn't actually exist. Like "diviner wizards go first always!" How many people have actually MADE a diviner wizard that you know of?
>>44246963
... I'm sorry but I'm just kinda laughing now. Imagining the GM going like:
"You've faced off against the Balor of Gaville. The lich king of Andor. The army of great harpies and the supernal high tides. Yes the wizard and cleric completely blew through those events but NOW YOU FACE THE TRUE CHALLENGE. SOME GOBLINS ON A ROPE BRIDGE! AND NOW THE WIZARD LITERALLY CANNOT DO ANYTHING! THE FIGHTER AND MONK CAN NOW STOP LOOKING AT THEIR TABLETS AND BE MORE INVOLVED WHILE THE CLERIC AND WIZARD MUST TWIDDLE THEIR THUMBS!"
"... why am I not just running two separate games?"
>>44246963
Yes, this is all well and good, the martials run out of their deplete able resources before the casters. I've done exactly what you're saying, the game still favors the caster in this regard.
>>44247070
>imagine an enemy attacks while crossing
>the enemy can't possibly fly
You are an idiot.
>>44247070
Obviously the fighter would take off any heavy armour before climbing/jumping, though heavy armour's hardly a given for a fighter.
Sure throwing in monsters might make things a bit more difficult, but a diligent party that checks the area beforehand shouldn't have a problem, and they should be able to get back to one side fairly quickly unless we're talking a seriously massive gap
>>44247104
Again: in a dungeon where once more:
>Okay now imagine an enemy attacks you while you're crossing.
Is a REAL POSSIBILITY?
>>44247140
Yeah, that may have even been why the DM put that challenge there. Take a risk to move ahead or go home.
Why do you even play this game? Why not just have the DM jerk you off and call you a good boy? Seems to be all the challenge you want out of this.
>>44247070
>In heavy armor? Really?
Yes, actually. He does.
>>44245844
>I can do more than just hit it!
>I'll jump off the railing and swing across the chandelier to the other side!
>Then boot the evil archduke out the window and save the princess!
>"Ok, you just need to make an athletics check, an acrobatics check, another athletics check, oh and an attack roll at a -7 penalty."
>"Oh, you failed any of thsoe checks? Sorry, guess you tripped over the railing/fell of the chandelier. Wizard, your up."
>I CAST A SPELL
>"Well ok then, everything works out, no need to make any roll."
>>44246963
>make enemies target magic items
Why aren't they also targeting the martial's magic items? They're more reliant on them than the casters.
>and users
So you're saying casters are bigger threats and we should ignore martials?
>Enforce casting times, spell slots, spells per day and components
I do this already, doesn't make a difference.
>Don't allow them to rest or recuperate, keep the pressure on.
With what? Three ambushes a night? Why wouldn't they just leave and rest? Casters are much better able to give themselves down time than martials to begin with through a variety of means.
> Now hit them with a mundane challenge.
So martials are only relevant if you have literally no down time. I see.
>>44247183
Of course not.
If I didn't want a challenge I'd just be a wizard obviously.
>>44247192
See that last line? That's why the GM is the problem in your game.
>>44244352
This setting was better without human magic users.
>>44247212
That's literally how magic works in 3.5 you twit.
Casters don't roll to cast spells. They say what they want. The effect happens. The GM literally has as much input on it as the spell description does and it's implied the player can actually add his own input in some regards.
>>44247212
It's an exaggeration. The moment a martial even tries to be creative they're bogged down with 80 rolls and penalties. The wizard stands there and rolls to succeed, possibly ending the entire encounter right there
>>44247192
>what are saving throws.
>>44247247
>He lets the enemy make a saving throw
>>44247212
Wait wait, so you're saying the GM is shit unless he throws out the magic rules?
Why not just play a different system?
>>44247212
Literally I can only think of 1 non-rules lite system where you don't get boggled with 99 trillion rolls for anything but "me basic attack :D"
>>44247261
This is one meme I actually very much dislike as someone who plays a lot of casters. Saving throws are something you do very much need to have enemies make. There are not nearly as many no save spells as people thing, and hardly any of them are worth it.
It's easy to push saves past what enemies can make, limiting yourself to no save spells means you're terrible at the game.
>>44246944
>people really believe this
still a Tier4 bruh, and your magic equipment still costs more than the fighter's so he ends being better than you
>>44247200
Of course casters are a bigger threat. I never said it was balanced. I'm specifically arguing that it's not balanced. Try to keep up here. Also what do you mean "we" should ignore martials? You're in the party, not fighting it.
>> Why wouldn't they just leave and rest?
If you can't answer this, don't be a DM.
>> So martials are only relevant if you have literally no down time. I see.
Yes. They are the backup plan. They come with a load of abilities that casters can only replicate or exceed by using spells. Those spells are finite for a reason, and that reason is to control and rein in the casters. Every single problem you just described comes down to letting casters run fast and loose with the rules. That's a DM problem, and a player problem.
>>44247304
>If you can't answer this, don't be a DM.
So everywhere is teleport trapped then? Has metal plates to make it immune to earth glide?
>Yes. They are the backup plan.
Which makes the game shit, how can you not get this through your head? If you're only relevant when the party has been pushed to exhaustion then I don't think it's very fun. You know why? The world then has to scale to challenge just you, because if it doesn't the party is gonna die, because you can't deal with the same threats that exhausted your heavy hitters.
>>44247265
Wow, no wonder you have problems with this game, your reading comprehension is shit. Saving throws, magic resistance, enemies equipped with good items. Those are the rules you should be enforcing as a good GM.
That's not even addressing the fact that spell component requirements alone can gimp a caster to ineffectiveness.
>>44247239
It's not though. See above.
>>44247374
>Saving throws, magic resistance, enemies equipped with good items. Those are the rules you should be enforcing as a good GM.
The thing is, who fucking doesn't enforce these already? The game has all the problems it does WITH these rules.
>>44247342
If the party is high enough level to be deploying those spells, then the encounters should be geared to account for it. Otherwise it's all walk in the park stuff and why bother? You really don't see how you are ruining your own game by playing this way?
>>44247374
>saving throws
>magic resistance
Christ, no wonder you think 3.5 is fine if you think fucking SPELL RESISTANCE does a goddamn thing to stop spellcasters.
>>44247399
These guys, apparently. I use them and don't have these problems. I can only conclude that they do not understand the game and should probably go play Magic instead.
>>44247415
How it doesn't?
Mmmhm? Proof?
THought so.
>>44247302
>I don't play things I just make up things
They're Tier 4, Tier 3 with careful Ki Power selection.
>>44247415
Stops them just fine when I do it. Maybe you need to turn it off and back on again?
>>44247104
>>44247134
>He would just take off his armor
Then how does he get it back across with him? Have the Flying Wizard carry it?
>>44247399
>The thing is, who fucking doesn't enforce these already?
People who let their casters have magic items like candy.
>>44247410
The thing is I can either challenge the casters or I can challenge the martials. Consistently challenging them both is going to exhaust the casters then kill the party (if I am gearing it towards casters) or be a cake walk (if I am gearing it towards martials).
Trust me. I've gotten good at making it interesting, but I have to twist the rules to make it so.
>You really don't see how you are ruining your own game by playing this way?
I'm speaking as a GM m8. I play what ever the fuck I want when I actually get to play and don't minmax to hell and back, but it doesn't mean franky fighter and waldo wizard are equals.
Fucking especially if you don't literally press the fucking wizard 24/7 to deny them any rest, but if you do that the world isn't remotely realistic unless they are literally sleeping in the dungeon (and if they are you can easily give yourself sleeping time through a variety of means even at low level).
>>44247476
He carries it. You don't get penalised for carrying armour, just for wearing it.
>>44247476
That's kind of up to the player to answer isn't it? And also the point of the game?
>>44247451
Even counting the number of spells that simply don't allow spell resistance rolls, any spell that doesn't directly target creatures also ignore spell resistance.
Summon spells and illusions for one, not even counting cheese shit like Stone to Mud->Mud to Earth type shit.
>>44247451
>Proof?
The fact you can put your CL checks and saves high enough that monsters at your CR to be incapable of saving/resisting.
It's like you don't even know the game.
Also holy shit you are being such a faggot, god damn.
>>44247484
Are you suggesting casters shouldn't have WBL items the same as martials? That when distributing loot the casters should get a smaller cut of the party pot.
>>44247200
>Why aren't they also targeting the martial's magic items? They're more reliant on them than the casters.
See this? This is where you are wrong. Casters NEED those circlets of stat bnoosting, those rods of metamagic, those rings of freedom of movement, and those cloaks of resistance. When they don't have them, they cease to be worldbreaking assholes and suddenly have to make every high level spell count, because without the items to boost the save DCs the enemy saves are suddenly a great deal tougher to blow past.
>>44247517
1. None
2. Errrrmmmm Not how it works.
3. Mmm saving throw?
4. Veto'd
>>44247542
1. Errrm items are banned Uh?
2. Nice ad hominem kiddo
Soooo no proof? Okay then!
>>44247451
Sources of spell resistance are relatively rare.
>>44247549
They can... you know... make them for themselves.
Also, you're a moron if you think casters are more item dependent than martials. A caster without his gear is FAR more dangerous than a martial without his.
>>44247517
Targeted Spells
Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.
Area Spells
Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.
Effect Spells
Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.
>>44247517
And area effect spells are easy to fuck with in-game too. Oh that fireball you just blasted down the corridor? Well for one the level 7 orc rogue you fired it at dodged it for half damage, so he's still coming. But the concussion knocked something loose and the tunnel is collapsing. Debris is falling and the caster has grit in his eyes and is blinded until he can roll a Con check. And the cleric was caught in the blast, so he's hurt now.
>>44247563
You're acting like you're 14. You're not even trying to have an actual conversation.
>>44247563
It's bait. Don't reply to it.
>>44247461
>If I make up shit they won't be able to argue back
Sure thing, bro.
Tier 4 at best.
>>44247600
>No proof
>WAOW!!! UR 14!!!
Nice. Ad. Hominem.
>>44247572
And I can take them away at the blink of an eye as the GM when it suits me. This isn't hard, you're just letting casters dominate.
>>44247598
>concussion
Fireball doesn't have any concussion.
>>44247612
The whole tread is a continual bait of a couple of dudes sayind D&D is fine
>>44247598
That's not how fireball works. RTFM.
>>44247629
So it's okay that a subset of classes can and will dominate unless the DM goes out of their way to nerf them?
>>44247626
I said fucking proof, you ignored it.
Your suggestion is banning casters from having items, that's idiotic. Fucking christ I'm actually mad at you because you're such a retard. Even if you are trolling, fuck.
>>44247598
Except the Fighter is screwed even worse because he's now a beetle
And that Orc Rogue now has his butt where his face is, and his face where his butt was.
And then the dungeon flooded with strawberry jam.
>>44247629
>And I can take them away at the blink of an eye as the GM when it suits me.
You sound like a classy DM.
>>44247651
Or don't let them get all the fancy shit they need to be badass. It's called restraint, and good DMs know when to use it.
>>44247629
This means you have to go out of your way to keep them relevant. This means there is something seriously wrong with the system. I don't see how what you're saying changes that.
>>44247461
If qinggong with master of many styles and hungry ghost didn't turn monk into Tier 3 this new class that it's slightly worse than these archetypes won't either, anon.
>>44247671
Thanks. It keeps the game fun though. Let them keep it for awhile, then use it as a hook for the next plotline. Do you play games with an "I win" button? Too easy is not fun.
>>44247673
>Or don't let them get all the fancy shit they need to be badass.
The martials need WAY MORE fancy shit to be badass. Give casters half WBL and they're still better than martials. Unless you're literally having your martials get an unfair cut of the party pot (by forcing them to not distribute loot evenly) you can't enforce one without the other.
>>44247673
By what, making crafted items explode on creation?
>>44247693
If you're idea of difficulty is randomly taking items and throwing gear at your martials like candy then you're a moron. The system is broken, what you're doing doesn't change that. The system doesn't work.
>>44247629
Oh no, my caster who's gamebreaking powers are completely independant of items have lost all my items., whatever will I do?
Oh right, I still have spells. I'll just pop into my time-sped up Demiplane, grab one of my spare Handy Haversacks, make about 20 scrolls, then pop back before they even realize I teleported anywhere.
>>44247673
>Or don't let them get all the fancy shit they need to be badass.
So..don't let them gain levels then?
>ITT: people who pretend they GM games but actually don't, and are only claiming that to make it seem like they know what they're talking about.
>>44247674
I'll spell it out since you seem to be having a hard time with this.
I'm not arguing that the system is perfect or balanced. What I am arguing is that it doesn't matter, because the DM and players are 90% of the game and can easily overcome shitty rules by just not being assholes while playing it.
>>44247711
I don't give martials shit either. I regularly strip my players of their gear and force them to find new ways to deal with things. Keeps them on their toes.
>>44247673
Casters need items FAR LESS than martials do.
>>44247718
By what you have been suggesting all it sounds like you're doing is target casters. Your ideas of "fixing the game" is taking away items randomly, ignoring WBL, banning out items, banning spells I assume.
Honestly? I think you should change the system if it is THIS BAD, because it is this bad.
>>44247735
Wait, what? This just makes the casters EVEN BETTER than normal.
>>44247735
>my players
>implying you have any
>>44247735
>caster loses buff items, is a bit worse at spellslinging until they're back
>martial loses sword/armor, is even more useless until they're back
wonderful
>>44244593
I'm saving this, it agrees with my long-held thoughts on the topic (although I would rewrite the both entry)
>>44247735
>Martials: start punching shit.
>Casters: start casting your plethora of spells at their regular, non-boosted potency.
Such fairness.
>>44247542
WBL does not mean "pick and choose your magic items freely out of the book". WBL means "this is what you should be able to do at this level with this cash available, but watch it, GM."
Giving an int caster a circlet of charisma increases his stat, and can be useful, but it's not going to increase his DC. A rod of metamagic is great and potentially gamebreaking, but you aren't required to give him any, or even one. It is the GM's duty to understand what happens when he lets his caster (or any character for that matter) get a hold of any given magic item. And to avoid giving it to them if it fucks with his game's balance. Inform the player that if they take the craft item feats, you will limit what items he can craft if you have to. Given them utilitarian items that do not take the place of utility spells so they are forced to save slots on utility spells. Punish a caster for trying to use incense of meditation cheese (Do you ~actually~ worship that god? No? Here is your free curse!). WBL also applies to leaning new spells and scribing them into your book. It's not free to do so by RAW - you actually have to spend 10 gpxspell level squared to do so, and that's if you've made all the requisite rolls to actually learn the spell in the first place. You think that's paltry at first, but it adds up fast, and can hinder midlevel casters quite badly.
If a caster is breaking the game, the GM is at fault.
>>44247740
I play other systems too. That's not the point. You seem to just want to hate on 3.5 whereas I just want to have fun playing a game with my friends. We're both succeeding but I seem to be having more fun.
>>44247740
I don't ban anything. I talk to my players, we agree on what we want from the game and we go from there. It's not me against them, or them against each other. We play together and have a good time. Why this seems to be so hard for /tg/ to grasp, I don't know. You all are just competitive or something.
>>44247793
>What is Crafting?
>>44244593
>>44247784
Too bad it's wrong and stupid.
In fact, the thread where it was the OP image was a pretty good discussion on just how wrong it was.
>>44244593
My favorite thing about this one is that it mentions Exalted, but Exalted's a demonstration of MARTIAL supremacy, because "casters" (Sorcerers) were complete dogshit compared to martials in the first two editions of the game.
>>44247793
>Inform the player that if they take the craft item feats, you will limit what items he can craft if you have to.
Try telling your martials "I don't give a shit which weapon proficiencies you have, I say which weapons you can use".
>>44246331
>enforcing political correctness
>pol
People just use that word whenever they hear something they dislike now. It's the new autism. Maybe autism will now become a compliment like faggot did.
>>44246408
>"I don't have mental disabilities"
>ends a sentence with a preposition
You had one job
>>44247572
>make them for themselves
With sufficient materials (as in master work items made for the magic item to be), gold, and TIME.
There is nothing that says you are required to give a caster 15 days of downtime so he can make a 15000 gp magical item. It takes double the time if he's doing it while adventuring. They don't get made instantly and they don't get made without having the craft item feat, a fuckton of money, and the master work items to do it with.
>>44247572
That is not true. A caster without his gear in PF (and this does not hold true in 3.5) can make his very highest level spells work 55% of the time against creatures with a good save that is his own CR (which is most of the higher level creatures in PF). He gets one, maybe two of them without his stat boosting gear. The percentage drops 5% per level lower than his highest level spell - or if the creature is not his level as CR. A midlevel caster without his magical statboosts and metamagic rods is going to have a very bad time of it in the most basic encounters.
>>44247840
You're gonna have to do more than insist it's wrong to convince. Shit lines up perfectly with balance.
>>44247822
A very bad thing.
>make spellcraft rolls every day
>1 day per 1000 gp of item value
>have to have masterwork item to start with, even for the most chintzy magic item
>GM is forced to restrict adventures to caster requirements? Why?
Okay, so we have this factory that makes a thing. To make the thing, you have to push these buttons in a specific order. Except this one button, which has nothing to do with actually making the thing, but if you push that button a random employee dies.
So this new employee comes in, works for a few days and then accidentally presses the bad button and a person dies.
A sensible person: Why the fuck is there a button like that? If it's not needed for making the thing, why does it even exist?
This thread: well, you know maybe you shouldnt have pushed the button.
>>44247942
I like crafting. It lets me give the players a quest to get the materials and the like. I turn the whole thing into a hook for a plot, rather than just let the caster "make it in my free time" and get a free powerup at the cost of some worthless gold. Time in the game is a commodity too, and the ticking clock factor nerfs casters a lot - they are only effective when you give them all the time they need to prepare.
>>44247994
>JUST HOMEBREW MY SHIT UP DM
>>44247991
This is a really terrible thread. We have Enforce Spell Components -tier arguments, which I thought was a ten year old meme. Why does /tg/ keep falling for this shit?
>>44247905
>caster without his gear in PF (and this does not hold true in 3.5) can make his very highest level spells work 55% of the time against creatures with a good save that is his own CR
As that's drastically better than what a martial could do (one shot the majority of times) then I'll take that as agreeing with him.
Mind you, all that's just for one shotting. You can definitely still remove a higher level enemy from the fight.
>>44247718
>What I am arguing is that it doesn't matter, because the DM and players are 90% of the game and can easily overcome shitty rules by just not being assholes while playing it.
This is absolutely correct. If you have a bunch of friends, everything can be fun!
... That doesn't make it a good game. I have fun playing monopoly with my friends, but that game is still shit. A good game is good even if you are playing it with strangers.
>>44248048
A game is good if we're having fun playing it. Your argument is basically just "Stop liking things I don't like."
>>44248071
No, a game is a game if everyone is having fun playing it. "Is fun" is literally the bare minimum requirement to qualify as a game, because if it ceases to be fun, you're not even recreating, you're just going through some pointless miserable ritual involving dice and plastic tokens.
"It's fun" as praise for a game is like calling a car good if it can physically get you from point A to point B: well no shit, if it couldn't do that much it wouldn't be a fucking car at all.
>>44248018
>>44247991
Don't get cut on all that edge there kids.
>>44248071
I hate to break it to you anon but fun is subjective
>>44248020
Sure - less than half the time. And if you think that's significant, what happens against a BBEG that your spells fail against 40% of the time? A martial is still going to be hurting it with every hit. Your first power spell fails, then your second....now you're down to 35% success rate with your second highest level spells.
Caster is more powerful than martial, but without instant win buttons, it makes his life a fuckload more risky, and by risky I mean, likely to be confirmed dead in two rounds of combat if the enemy makes two saves.
>>44248071
Almost anything is good if you're doing it with good people. I've had a blast watching shitty movies with my friends, BUT THEY ARE STILL SHITTY MOVIES. The reason why I had fun was because *I watched them with my friends* not *because the movie was good*.
A movie should be perfectly watchable even if you are by yourself.
A game should be perfectly playable even if you play it with strangers.
If the only reason why you have fun playing a game is because of the other people there, then maybe the game isn't good?
With friends, I've had fun conversations about the trip to the toilet I had earlier that day. Does that make "talking about shit" a good game?
>>44248128
That's what he said.
>>44248124
And your elitist attitude about it seems to be preventing you from even the bare minimum, so what's your point? Why should we change to a different game when we're having fun with this one? To satisfy you? To qualify as real nerds? We have nothing to prove to you. I'm only responding to this thread at all because I want people to enjoy their games and /tg/ seems to be missing out on actual fun.
>>44248134
If it's a BBEG they should really be immune to oneshots in general. Fighting one is supposed to be the culmination of a campaign, and ending it with "the wizard got a decent roll and oneshot the fucker" feels terrible for all invovled
