>The young man with the golden skin drops to one knee, silver tears sparkling on his flawless features like droplets of sacred oil.‘I knew you’d come,’ he weeps the words. ‘I knew you’d come.’
>The God in Gold offers his armoured hand to the kneeling young man. ‘I am the Emperor,’ he smiles, benevolence incarnate, glory radiating from him in a palpable aura that hurts the eyes of every onlooker. Thousands of people line the streets. Hundreds of priests, clad in the dove-grey of the Covenant’s ecclesiarchs, kneel with Lorgar before the coming of the God-Emperor.
>‘I know who you are,’ the golden primarch says through his dignified tears. ‘I have dreamed of you for years, foreseeing this moment. Father, Emperor, my lord... We are the Covenant of Colchis, and we have won this world through your worship, for the glory of your name.’
>and then he orders you to take down your religion and embrace imperial truth
How does the Emperor not understand that appearing as a golden giant will make people believe you're a god?
>>44184462
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2P7-JcbQVY
>>44184462
>>44184462
The emperor was immortal and incredibly intelligent. He never feared death and never encountered something he couldn't explain, and so he couldn't comprehend why people turned to religion. He thought that showing people the truth would be enough to shake them out of their superstitions because he didn't understand them.
>>44185647
Couldn't he, like, sit down and talk about it with some moderately smart educated dude? Have him explain how normal people think and why they think that way?
>>44185701
No because the emperor only THOUGHT he was flawless. In reality he was incredibly egotistical and decided that he was right and people would fall in line.
This is why Malcador should have been in charge of everything and big E should have just done the fighting.
>>44185701
>Couldn't he, like, sit down and talk about it
That's what he did in previous horus heresy stories.
The new series decided that having the bulk of the traitors fall of their own hubris was just not interesting.
>>44185701
>have educated dudes
>explain normal
Good call! Let's ask uni profs for dating tips, while we're at it! You've never been to college, I take it.
>>44185721
>gods are egotistical
Kill your brain. Plead self-defense.
>>44184462
Well, to be fair, everything else about him kind implied Godliness anyway.
I assume the idea is that when ya tell a motherfucker yer not a God they should probably believe you. Its not like being a Golden Giant is significantly more likely to imply Godhood than riding a massive ship down from the stars, especially on a world already introduced to Primarchs as being just humans, even if highly evolved.
>>44186336
>Gods are egotistical
But they really, really ARE though? Have you never read the Greek or to a far lesser extent, Norse myths? Gods are arrogant tosspots who expect mortals to fall in line and do as their told. They don't even TRY to see things from the mortals perspective and in the case of the Emperor and the Primarchs, this came back to bite them in the ass.
>>44186336
>uni profs for dating tips, while we're at it!
Well "Be smart and around a ton of young attractive women who you help learn stuff" seems to work out incredibly well for professors from what I've seen, its just a little inapplicable to anyone who's NOT a professor.
>>44184462
The guy was such a powerful psyker, that's pretty much what he looked like while restraining his power so mortals wouldn't go completely insane by his mere presence. He would occasionally project part of his being over great distances to appear in other forms, but this is just what he looked like to everyone not a psyker. For psykers it was even worse.
The whole "Emperor and Religion" thing has been handled and written incredibly poorly. So poorly that there's no point in discussing it, like most fluff written after late 3rd/Mid 4th Edition.
He obviously acted like a complete idiot and there's no way to justify his actions by now.
Horus Heresy was a mistake.
>>44184462
The only consistent theme of the Horus Heresy novels has been the Emperor was a retard.
>make deal with Chaos, double-cross them
>refuse to rescue Angrons mates, leave him with an entire legion of astartes while he's still in a state where he just murders them whenever his sons enter the room
>decides the best way to convice Lorgar that he isn't a god is to humiliate him in front of the brother he hates the most and obliterate a loyal city
>ban psykers at Nikea
>don't warn the primarchs about Chaos
>don't just tell the primarchs about the webway gate so that they don't have a panic attack about dad leaving
>>44187742
>refuse to rescue Angrons mates, leave him with an entire legion of astartes while he's still in a state where he just murders them whenever his sons enter the room
Not that I'm defending Big E, but for this, I think understood Angryman was a lost cause.
Making him go all angstmurdermachine was the only way to get any use of him before he drops dead.
>>44187897
>this dude hates me and has technosorcery implanted in his head that drives him to want to kill everything he sees
>lets give him control of a legion of post-human supersoldiers and set him loose with no supervision
The Emperor was a moron.
>>44184462
Because for all his knowledge and power, he's still fucking retarded.
What if the Emperor was a God?
>>44187897
If angryman was a lost cause, why put him in charge of anything
>>44188584
Because the HH lore is retarded.
>>44188584
There is a Tau saying that goes "A broken sword can still cut".
>>44184462
For all his power, for all his glory and scientific accomplishment, the Emperor was ultimately self-centered as fuck and had no interest in understanding anyone else's perspective or working with anyone that didn't 100% support his ideas all the way.
His entire model for human civilization was terrible. He basically created a system where the vast majority of humans would live in squalor and suffering so that maybe one or two percent of the galactic population could have okay lives. And whenever anyone else had a demonstrably better idea than him, he had them wiped out.
Lorgar's idea of how things should work wasn't better or worse than Big E's, really. But it was different, and to the Emperor's supremely arrogant POV, different is automatically worse. And he shouldn't have to justify why, because he's da best and everyone should just accept that.
>>44188872
He was right and he knew it.
He assumed his sons would be at least halfway competent, which was his undoing.
>>44189985
He was right about one thing - Chaos has to be fought.
He was wrong about everything else.
>>44188872
Huh, I didn't know they got internet in the Eye of Terror. Stop posting, Lorgar. You're a shit and were always a shit.
>>44190118
Lorgar was pretty dumb but no more dumb than the Emperor.
Uniting mankind was basically the only good idea Emps had. Everything else was kneejerk tier shit that ended up causing far more problems than it solved. He was demonstrably wrong about most of the things he believed, like all aliens being fundamentally treacherous and ignorance being the only viable tool against Chaos.
>>44190974
The Emperor was wrong, but not about those two things.
>>44191090
Nah, there are several cases where the crusade ran into humans and ayys peacefully coexisting (such as the Interex, who wered also aware of chaos and actively opposed to it.).
Naturally, the emperor could not allow such blatant disproving of the rationale he used to justify his war to continue to exist, and the rest is history.
>>44191155
>Nah, there are several cases where the crusade ran into humans and ayys peacefully coexisting
What's your point?
Peacefully coexisting does not preclude treachery.
>the Interex, who wered also aware of chaos and actively opposed to it.
The Interex knew nothing. They kept Chaos artifacts around and accessible and assumed Chaos corruption in the Legions because of titles. They were idiots.
>>44191226
The Interex peacefully coexisted with the Kinebrach, who had resided in that region of space since before the beginning of the Age of Strife (which is where all of humanity's former allies supposedly turned on them). The Kinebrach had quite clearly not turned on the Interex, as not only were they not a slave race but they had advanced technology, evidence of a prolonged period of prosperity.
The Interex quite clearly knew something, as not only were their accessible chaos artifacts not corrupting anyone (presumably because they educated their citizens about these things) but they were actually right about corruption in the legions. In fact it was a rogue attack from a corrupt legionnaire that provoked the imperium-interex war in the first place.
Meanwhile, the only evidence you have to support the idea that allsyntheticsaliens will inevitably betrayorganicshumans is thecatalystemperor saying so.
>>44191226
Are you seriously saying that all aliens are automatically treacherous because the ones that remained allied with humans COULD betray them at some point? Do you have any idea how silly that logic is?
>They kept Chaos artifacts around and accessible and assumed Chaos corruption in the Legions because of titles.
They kept Chaos stuff contained and they WERE TOTALLY RIGHT because Chaos had indeed infested Horus' legion at that point.
>>44191391
>>44191394
>Are you seriously saying that all aliens are automatically treacherous because the ones that remained allied with humans COULD betray them at some point? Do you have any idea how silly that logic is?
It's perfectly logical. You do not know at which point the xenos will decide to put their species first.
>They kept Chaos stuff contained and they WERE TOTALLY RIGHT because Chaos had indeed infested Horus' legion at that point.
They kept their Chaos stuff about easily enough for someone to walk up and steal it. They were "right" for entirely wrong reasons.
They decided they were Chaos, then decided they were not and invited them to their planet and where they then let the actual Chaos get away with it.
Interex were the biggest bunch of faggots in the galaxy.
>/tg/ before HH
praise da empurah
>/tg/ after HH
da empurah is reetard
Thanks Black Library.
>>44184462
He's powerpants on head retarded when dealing with social situations. Also, >>44185647
>>44191623
>It's perfectly logical. You do not know at which point the xenos will decide to put their species first.
That applies for every group with a distinct identity though, you do not know at which point the nobles will decide to put their class first, you do not know at which point the psykers will decide to put their kind first, so on and so forth. Does this make it right to force everyone to have the same group identity?
>They kept their Chaos stuff about easily enough for someone to walk up and steal it.
Which no one in their society actually did, because they knew better.
They were right about the legions being corrupted from the start, but upon being convinced they weren't figured (erroneously) that that meant that none in the legions were corrupt. Assuming competence on the part of the Imperium for rooting out chaos corruption was their failing.
>>44191738
Hey, I thought the Corpse God was fucktarded way before HH vindicated me.
>>44191623
>It's perfectly logical. You do not know at which point the xenos will decide to put their species first.
It's perfectly sociopathic, you mean. You can apply that logic to anyone, human or not human. You can apply it on an individual or a species or an interspecies level and it comes down to the same thing - being a paranoid murderous fuckhead. I can't trust anyone in the end, because all people have some level of self interest, so I guess I should just kill them all, right?
>>44191623
1. They kept their Chaos stuff contained. People could try to steal it, but nobody did, because they were both educated about why that would be bad and well looked-after enough that trusting eldritch thought parasites doesn't seem like a good idea (this is the primary failing of Big E, by the way. His model of society makes the vast majority of mankind so profoundly unhappy that the Ruinous Powers seem like a better choice). The Interex had means for keeping Warp taint contained and they had clearly been working, as the only way Chaos could get a foothold to destroy them was through outside agents.
2. They gave the the Legions a chance to prove themselves. They were in the end correct, though - the Luna Wolves were indeed compromised by Chaos. The Interex were capable of seeing something was up, but they were also capable of seeing Horus' nobility. It really isn't their failing that Horus couldn't keep the Legions untainted.
>>44191777
>That applies for every group with a distinct identity though,
And the Emperor was erasing that through his eradication or religion homogenization of culture.
Besides, differences between humans is paltry compared to aliens.
>Which no one in their society actually did, because they knew better.
They clearly didn't. They clearly managed to both grossly underestimate Chaos and overestimate their own strength.
>They were right about the legions being corrupted from the start,
Not based on any evidence.
>We heard your title was Warmaster so that obviously means Chaos, right?
That's the Interex.
>upon being convinced they weren't figured (erroneously) that that meant that none in the legions were corrupt.
Convinced, but not actually checking things out themselves, and then letting the guys they thought were Chaos walk around and lift Chaos artifacts they had laying about.
>Assuming competence on the part of the Imperium for rooting out chaos corruption was their failing.
Leaving a Chaos artifacts essentially lying around, and (once again) grossly overestimating themselves and underestimating their enemy was their failing.
Like, what did they think picking a fight with the Imperium was going to end in other than Interex-based corpse starch rations?
>>44191738
The Emprah was always a bad guy.
Even back in the days of Rogue Trader, he was a tyrannical shit. Significantly less powerful in life, though.
>>44192003
Yeah, but at least you could pretend he wasn't a complete fucking idiot in life.
>>44185647
>incredibly intelligent
Going to have to disagree with you there
>>44192023
He wasn't an idiot.
More of a megalomaniac. He thought he could do things he clearly couldn't.
>>44191975
>And the Emperor was erasing that through his eradication or religion homogenization of culture.
Another one of my issues with him.
>Besides, differences between humans is paltry compared to aliens.
And yet the Tau manage to make it work, as did the Interex.
>They clearly didn't. They clearly managed to both grossly underestimate Chaos and overestimate their own strength.
They did though, their culture survived just fine without the problem of chaos cults until another group of humans with less understanding of the warp came along and ruined everything.
>Convinced, but not actually checking things out themselves, and then letting the guys they thought were Chaos walk around and lift Chaos artifacts they had laying about.
Yeah okay, fair point. They had been convinced at that point that they weren't Chaos though, so everything past 'themselves' is at least partially wrong.
>Leaving a Chaos artifacts essentially lying around, and (once again) grossly overestimating themselves and underestimating their enemy was their failing.
Once again, they had no problems with the chaos artifacts until horse and co showed up.
>Like, what did they think picking a fight with the Imperium was going to end in other than Interex-based corpse starch rations?
They didn't pick the fight, all indicators they had pointed to the Imperium picking the fight. In truth it was Erebus who picked the fight but eh, he was nominally on the Imperium's side.
Furthermore, as their soldiers wielded weapons that could punch through power armour in one shot, they probably thought they had a decent chance.
>>44192050
And demenstratedly had no idea how people worked, no idea about what the consequences of his actions were likely to be and had very little knowledge on his specialist subject, Chaos.
>>44191951
>I can't trust anyone in the end, because all people have some level of self interest, so I guess I should just kill them all, right?
If you want.
It's all about where you draw the line.
The Emperor foresaw a good future for humanity, but not xenos who are inherently less trustworthy in matters of human ascendancy.
>1. They kept their Chaos stuff contained.
Poorly.
>People could try to steal it, but nobody did,
Until someone did.
>because they were both educated about why that would be bad and well looked-after enough that trusting eldritch thought parasites doesn't seem like a good idea
How can you say they were educated when they clearly knew nothing of Chaos? All the Interex had done was identify it as an enemy without taking its powers into account.
> The Interex had means for keeping Warp taint contained and they had clearly been working, as the only way Chaos could get a foothold to destroy them was through outside agents.
Outside agents caused their downfall, but that doesn't mean that that was the only way. If they had been more like the Imperium then maybe they would still be around.
>2. They gave the the Legions a chance to prove themselves. They were in the end correct, though - the Luna Wolves were indeed compromised by Chaos. The Interex were capable of seeing something was up, but they were also capable of seeing Horus' nobility. It really isn't their failing that Horus couldn't keep the Legions untainted.
They were correct that their was Chaos taint in the Legions. But they made that assumption based on nothing. Then they didn't bother actually checking things out before letting those they thought may be corrupted have access to powerful Chaos artifacts.
The interex were careless and dangerously naive.
>>44192140
>Another one of my issues with him.
Why? It was a positive step towards keeping humanity united and strong while undergoing the psychic apothesis.
>And yet the Tau manage to make it work, as did the Interex.
For a time.
>They did though, their culture survived just fine without the problem of chaos cults until another group of humans with less understanding of the warp came along and ruined everything.
Their culture survived just fine just long enough to provide the necessary tools for creating the Horus Heresy. Then they were simply squashed.
>They had been convinced at that point that they weren't Chaos though
Without any of their own vetting. Naive as fuck.
>Once again, they had no problems with the chaos artifacts until horse and co showed up.
We don't really know that, but what we do know is that they left them with little security and that's just idiotic. Can you imagine a sealed canister of some super virus being left in a museum gift shot? No. They underestimated Chaos.
>They didn't pick the fight
They tried to kill Horus after the theft. They definitely picked a fight.
>Furthermore, as their soldiers wielded weapons that could punch through power armour in one shot, they probably thought they had a decent chance.
Once again, they massively underestimated their opponent and underestimated themselves.
These guys couldn't even comprehend the fledgling Imperium, let alone Chaos.
>>44192157
>The Emperor foresaw a good future for humanity, but not xenos who are inherently less trustworthy in matters of human ascendancy.
The Emperor didn't really create a good future for humanity, though. It would be fair to say that his brutal wars of conquest actually made things worse for a lot of humans. And of course the aliens are going to oppose their subjugation by another race, they're hardly wrong in doing so.
>Poorly.
Well enough that they had no problems with chaos cults.
>Until someone did.
Said someone being an outside context problem only there due to extenuating circumstances.
>How can you say they were educated when they clearly knew nothing of Chaos? All the Interex had done was identify it as an enemy without taking its powers into account.
How can you say they clearly knew nothing of Chaos when they held Chaos artifacts with no corruption among the citizenry whatsoever?
>Outside agents caused their downfall, but that doesn't mean that that was the only way. If they had been more like the Imperium then maybe they would still be around.
More like the Imperium as in larger and with more resources to throw around? More like the Imperium as in possessing a functional supersoldier program? More like the Imperium as in led by a physical god and his 18 demigod sons? Don't be ridiculous, the Interex lost to the Imperium for reasons entirely unrelated to their philosophy on chaos and aliens.
>>44192157
>The Emperor foresaw a good future for humanity
He foresaw a future where the vast majority of humanity toiled in constant squalor to support him. His future was survival, it wasn't good.
>How can you say they were educated when they clearly knew nothing of Chaos? All the Interex had done was identify it as an enemy without taking its powers into account.
They knew to be on guard for it.
>If they had been more like the Imperium then maybe they would still be around.
Being more like the Imperium merely opens you further to destruction from within. The only reason the Imperium still exists is momentum from the Emperor's life. It's been in constant decline since. And frankly, for the vast majority of humans, life in the Imperium is so bad that they may as well be under Chaos.
>The interex were careless and dangerously naive.
And yet, it was only after coming into contact with the Imperium that Chaos was able to successfully strike against them. And the Interex didn't give Chaos its greatest champions or its greatest source of sustenance and soldiers. That would be the Imperium.
>>44192324
>Why? It was a positive step towards keeping humanity united and strong while undergoing the psychic apothesis.
Because it denies the actual nature of humanity, it's not humanity as is that is preserved but humanity according to the Emperor.
>For a time.
Nothing lasts forever. Saying 'it'll all end eventually' is making a statement with no value.
>Their culture survived just fine just long enough to provide the necessary tools for creating the Horus Heresy. Then they were simply squashed.
They were squashed by a non-chaos faction, chaos had nothing to do with the Interex's demise.
>Without any of their own vetting. Naive as fuck.
Beside the point. The point made by that comment in that context was that as they no longer believed the astartes were with chaos they did not knowingly allow chaos-tainted individuals to touch chaos artifacts as you claimed.
>We don't really know that, but what we do know is that they left them with little security and that's just idiotic. Can you imagine a sealed canister of some super virus being left in a museum gift shot? No. They underestimated Chaos.
Do we have any evidence of chaos corruption in the Interex? Any at all? No? There you have it then, they clearly didn't underestimate chaos because unlike the Imperium their strategy for dealing with it actually worked as a self-contained system.
>They tried to kill Horus after the theft. They definitely picked a fight.
The theft was clearly an act of aggression and clearly carried out by the astartes, they responded in kind.
>Once again, they massively underestimated their opponent and underestimated themselves.
>These guys couldn't even comprehend the fledgling Imperium, let alone Chaos.
Understanding the Imperium was a matter of understanding it's scope. It was a big place with lots of troops and the Interex could not be reasonably expected to understand just how big it was.
Understanding Chaos was a matter of understanding it's nature, totally different.
>>44192448
>The Emperor didn't really create a good future for humanity, though.
It's not over yet, he may still succeed.
>And of course the aliens are going to oppose their subjugation by another race, they're hardly wrong in doing so.
Of course it's not wrong. Doesn't mean it's wrong to remove them either though.
>Well enough that they had no problems with chaos cults.
Until a one (1) Chaos cultist came and their whole civilization ended because of him.
>Said someone being an outside context problem only there due to extenuating circumstances.
He was from the outside, that does not mean an inside threat couldn't have risen. Knowledge of Chaos corrupts, as the Interex learned more they would have had more crop up.
>How can you say they clearly knew nothing of Chaos when they held Chaos artifacts with no corruption among the citizenry whatsoever?
Because they demonstrated a total misunderstanding of Chaos. Just because they had not yet become corrupt does not mean that they would not. Plenty of places have Chaos things around that don' shit up the place immediately.
>More like the Imperium as in larger and with more resources to throw around?
And yet the Imperium was younger or atleast the same age as the Interex. Their methodology was clearly superior.
>Don't be ridiculous, the Interex lost to the Imperium for reasons entirely unrelated to their philosophy on chaos and aliens.
The Interex were exterminated in a war instigated by a Chaos agent, but without Chaos having to lift a finger. Their extinction was actually incidental to a larger scheme.
Their philosophy and way of life led to their downfall while the Imperium has allowed them to stand tall and strong for ten thousand years.
>>44192623
>It's not over yet, he may still succeed.
Haha
In which way could they still win? Of all the factions that could win, the Imperium is not among them.
Assuming that they do achieve a total victory; Chaos defeated, Tyranids driven off, Necrons entombed again, etc etc. The Imperium would not survive peace. It would fracture and destroy itself in short order.
>>44192560
>He foresaw a future where the vast majority of humanity toiled in constant squalor to support him. His future was survival, it wasn't good.
No. The Emperor's destination future was one where mankind survives its psychic apotheosis and becomes a golden race of beings. The brutality is to ensure they survive long enough to accomplish this.
>They knew to be on guard for it.
And dropped their guard almost instantly. Naive.
>Being more like the Imperium merely opens you further to destruction from within. The only reason the Imperium still exists is momentum from the Emperor's life. It's been in constant decline since. And frankly, for the vast majority of humans, life in the Imperium is so bad that they may as well be under Chaos.
The Imperium has experienced good ages since the Emperor died, it's not a constant decline. Humans suffer now because of the Emperor's untimely removal, and must continue to suffer until apotheosis or destruction.
>And yet, it was only after coming into contact with the Imperium that Chaos was able to successfully strike against them. And the Interex didn't give Chaos its greatest champions or its greatest source of sustenance and soldiers. That would be the Imperium.
The Interex gave Chaos the tool to corrupt Horus, leading to the rest. If only the fools had actually secured the evil magic that they knew was evil magic.
>>44192623
>It's not over yet, he may still succeed.
He's a dead guy presiding over a decaying and corrupt empire beset from all sides. it's over.
>Of course it's not wrong. Doesn't mean it's wrong to remove them either though.
It is. though. Deciding to genocide a group of sapient entities that has done you no wrong because they may do you wrong in the future is blatantly evil, regardless of whether they're human or not.
>Until a one (1) Chaos cultist came and their whole civilization ended because of him.
Outside context problem. This has no bearing on their ability to prevent chaos corruption within their own culture.
>He was from the outside, that does not mean an inside threat couldn't have risen. Knowledge of Chaos corrupts, as the Interex learned more they would have had more crop up.
The fact that an inside threat did not rise is telling. Furthermore there are examples of beings in 40k with excellent working knowledge of chaos who are not corrupted, such as the Emperor, Grey Knights, the Ordo Malleus and the Eldar.
>Because they demonstrated a total misunderstanding of Chaos.
Simply asserting that does not make it true.
>Just because they had not yet become corrupt does not mean that they would not.
Again with the 'it might happen eventually' scenarios.
>Plenty of places have Chaos things around that don' shit up the place immediately.
Name one.
>And yet the Imperium was younger or atleast the same age as the Interex. Their methodology was clearly superior.
The Imperium lasted a shorter time before half of it's armies betrayed it, it's leader died and it regressed into a crumbling zombie of a state propelled by nothing more than momentum.
I'd say the Interex had better methodology, they were less self-destructive.
>>44192623
cont>>44192813
>The Interex were exterminated in a war instigated by a Chaos agent, but without Chaos having to lift a finger. Their extinction was actually incidental to a larger scheme.
Said agent required the lack of knowledge of chaos within the Imperium to succeed at his scheme.
>Their philosophy and way of life led to their downfall while the Imperium has allowed them to stand tall and strong for ten thousand years.
The Imperium has not stood tall or strong for ten thousand years, only gotten steadily more hunchbacked and decrepit.
>>44192578
>Because it denies the actual nature of humanity, it's not humanity as is that is preserved but humanity according to the Emperor.
It's to ensure survival. Humanities nature is changing and the Emperor is trying to make sure it happens without everyone dying.
>Nothing lasts forever. Saying 'it'll all end eventually' is making a statement with no value.
Yes nothing lasts forever, especially not peaceful co existence, so better to remove the scum now.
>They were squashed by a non-chaos faction, chaos had nothing to do with the Interex's demise.
Chaos engineered the situation. Chaos is good at manipulating events. They died to pure hands pulled by chaotic strings.
>Beside the point. The point made by that comment in that context was that as they no longer believed the astartes were with chaos they did not knowingly allow chaos-tainted individuals to touch chaos artifacts as you claimed.
They thought they might be Chaos. Until they had absolutely no reservations they should not have allowed them anywhere near Chaos artifacts.
>Do we have any evidence of chaos corruption in the Interex? Any at all? No? There you have it then, they clearly didn't underestimate chaos because unlike the Imperium their strategy for dealing with it actually worked as a self-contained system.
We have no evidence of their being Chaos in their ranks, but Chaos doesn't exist in a lot of places until it does. Even the Grey Knights, whose presence actively harms Chaos are not considered beyond corruption.
The Interex underestimated Chaos, by leaving Chaos artifacts out and then letting the Marines have access to them.
>The theft was clearly an act of aggression and clearly carried out by the astartes, they responded in kind.
It wasn't an aggressive action. It was just theft.
They decided it would be a good idea to try and kill the Marines. But that turned out not to be a good idea.
The Interex underestimated the Imperium just like they underestimated Chaos.
>>44192684
>In which way could they still win?
Psychic apotheosis.
>Assuming that they do achieve a total victory; Chaos defeated, Tyranids driven off, Necrons entombed again, etc etc. The Imperium would not survive peace. It would fracture and destroy itself in short order.
So what? Even if the new enlightened man was fractious it doesn't matter. The Imperium is just a tool to ensure that he can be born, what happens next is up to him.
>>44185619
Well what else do you expect the head of an imperium that's going on a galaxy wide conquest to wear
his pajama pants a white tank top and the reef?
>>44192910
>Psychic apotheosis.
How are they going to do that exactly? They keep taking all the Psykers to enslave or kill. The Psyker Gene needs to be proliferated to achieve that, but they are doing everything in their power to prevent it.
If only the Emperor actually tried to relate and understand both the thoughts and struggles of the common man. Maybe he wouldn't have been so fucking retarded.
>>44192997
This is also ignoring the point that psychic talent is not a survival trait in 40k.
Having a door to Hell located inside your head is not an advantage.
>>44192048
intelligence does not equal wisdom
>>44188872
yea because technology was shit you really think the current imperial structure was going to be permanent or that when the fighting was done he wouldn't rebuild infrastructure rediscover knowledge to improve the standard of living
Anathames were not, apparently, Chaos weapons, unless there's some later tweest revelation I'm unaware of.
>They were entering a chamber where, in the chilly blue field light, the artifacts were a great deal stranger than before.
>‘We hold the weapons of the kinebrach here,’ Naud said, to meturge accompaniment. ‘Indeed, we preserve here, in careful stasis, examples of the weapons used by many of the alien species we have encountered. The kinebrach have, as a sign of service to us, foresworn the bearing of arms, unless under such circumstances as we grant them said use in time of war. Kinebrach technology is highly advanced, and many of their weapons are deemed too lethal to be left beyond securement.’
>Naud introduced a hulking, robed kinebrach called Asherot, who held the rank of Keeper of Devices, and was the trusted curator of the hall. Asherot spoke the human tongue in a lisping manner, and for the first time, the Imperials were grateful for the meturge accompaniment. The baffling cadences of Asherot’s speech were rendered crystal clear by the aria.
>Most of the kinebrach weapons on display didn’t resemble weapons at all. Boxes, odd trinkets, rings, hoops. Naud clearly expected the Imperials to ask questions about the devices, and betray their warmongering appetites, but Horus and his officers affected disinterest. In truth, they were uneasy in the society of the indentured alien.
>>44193030
>Only Sindermann expressed curiosity. A very few of the kinebrach weapons looked like weapons: long daggers and swords of exotic design.
>‘Surely, general commander, a blade is just a blade?’ Sindermann asked politely. ‘These daggers here, for instance. How are these weapons “too lethal to be left beyond securement”?’
>‘They are tailored weapons,’ Naud replied. ‘Blades of sentient metal, crafted by the kinebrach metallurgists, a technique now utterly forbidden. We call them anathames. When such a blade is selected for use against a specific target, it becomes that target’s nemesis, utterly inimical to the person or being chosen.’
>‘How?’ Sindermann pressed.
>Naud smiled. ‘The kinebrach have never been able to explain it to us. It is a factor of the forging process that defies technical evaluation.’
>‘Like a curse?’ prompted Sindermann. ‘An enchantment?’
>The aria generated by the meturge players around them hiccupped slightly over those words. To Sindermann’s surprise, Naud replied, ‘I suppose that is how you could describe it, iterator.’
>The tour moved on. Sindermann drew close to Loken, and whispered, ‘I was joking, Garviel, about the curse, I mean, but he took me seriously. They are enjoying treating us as unsophisticated cousins, but I wonder if their superiority is misplaced. Do we detect a hint of pagan superstition?’
>>44193028
Not with half the Imperium and all the technical knowledge and skill swearing loyalty to Mars.
>>44192813
>it's over.
Not yet. The time of transformation is approaching.
>It is. though. Deciding to genocide a group of sapient entities that has done you no wrong because they may do you wrong in the future is blatantly evil, regardless of whether they're human or not.
From your point of view. Why give them the chance to become a threat? So you feel better until then?
>Outside context problem. This has no bearing on their ability to prevent chaos corruption within their own culture.
The Chaos agent was from outside, but that doesn't mean one cannot arise inside. Not even the Eldar can stop that.
>The fact that an inside threat did not rise is telling.
Only of the fact that it had not happened yet.
>Furthermore there are examples of beings in 40k with excellent working knowledge of chaos who are not corrupted, such as the Emperor, Grey Knights, the Ordo Malleus and the Eldar.
The Emperor has a special heritage and the Grey Knights share that. Even they are not immune. Inquisitors become corrupt all the time, and Eldar are far from immune.
>Simply asserting that does not make it true.
But it is true. They left artifacts woefully insecure, thought they recognised Chaos where it was not present and failed to recognise Chaos were it was.
>Again with the 'it might happen eventually' scenarios.
Because it almost universally does. Almost everything has been corrupted by Chaos at one point.
>Name one.
Calth had Chaos lurking below the surface. Wasn't a problem or even noticeable until the Word Bearers showed up and found it.
>The Imperium lasted a shorter time before half of it's armies betrayed it, it's leader died and it regressed into a crumbling zombie of a state propelled by nothing more than momentum.
I'd say the Interex had better methodology, they were less self-destructive.
The Interex were so poor that they did not last even a few years to fight Chaos. The Imperium is better objectively.
>>44192875
>It's to ensure survival. Humanities nature is changing and the Emperor is trying to make sure it happens without everyone dying.
It would be safer and easier to focus on building a pocket empire than to stretch your forces thin attempting to conquer the galaxy, if your goal is the preservation of humanity then that would be the better option.
>Yes nothing lasts forever, especially not peaceful co existence, so better to remove the scum now.
Funny.
>Chaos engineered the situation. Chaos is good at manipulating events. They died to pure hands pulled by chaotic strings.
Chaos would not have been able to pull said strings if the Imperium's higher-ups were any good at ferreting out chaos corruption or even knew what chaos was. A failing of the Emperor to teach them that would cost him dear.
>They thought they might be Chaos. Until they had absolutely no reservations they should not have allowed them anywhere near Chaos artifacts.
I'll agree with this point, that was retarded of them.
>We have no evidence of their being Chaos in their ranks, but Chaos doesn't exist in a lot of places until it does.
Translated: "We have no evidence of Chaos in their ranks, but I'm going to just go ahead and assume it's there anyway."
>The Interex underestimated Chaos, by leaving Chaos artifacts out and then letting the Marines have access to them.
It wasn't the power of the chaos artifacts that destroyed the Interex, it was the power of the astartes crusade fleets.
>It wasn't an aggressive action. It was just theft.
Firstly, theft by military forces of a dangerous artifact from another power is an aggressive action, Secondly Erebus also blew up the place it was held, which is a very aggressive action.
>They decided it would be a good idea to try and kill the Marines. But that turned out not to be a good idea.
Interex soldiers were evenly matched with Horus' astartes.
I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.
>>44192997
>How are they going to do that exactly? They keep taking all the Psykers to enslave or kill. The Psyker Gene needs to be proliferated to achieve that, but they are doing everything in their power to prevent it.
It's no so simple as a psyker gene. Despite psykers being rounded up their numbers are increasing all over the Imperium. It's more of an awakening than genetic proliferation.
>>44193023
>This is also ignoring the point that psychic talent is not a survival trait in 40k.
>Having a door to Hell located inside your head is not an advantage.
It's not now, which is why psykers are rounded up. But the Emperor's end goal is a humanity strong enough to resist the Chaos powers. At the point where your species is made of psykers strong enough to just say no to daemons you're in a pretty good position.
>>44193030
>Anathames were not, apparently, Chaos weapons, unless there's some later tweest revelation I'm unaware of.
>crafted by the kinebrach metallurgists, a technique now utterly forbidden.
>utterly forbidden
>factor of the forging process that defies technical evaluation
That's the Chaos part.
>>44193091
>Not yet. The time of transformation is approaching.
Not really, Psykers still make up a statistically tiny portion of humanity.
>From your point of view. Why give them the chance to become a threat? So you feel better until then?
Not everything is about making yourself feel better, anon.
>The Chaos agent was from outside, but that doesn't mean one cannot arise inside. Not even the Eldar can stop that.
It is telling that one didn't, also telling that Chaos Eldar are vanishingly rare.
>Only of the fact that it had not happened yet.
According to you.
>The Emperor has a special heritage and the Grey Knights share that. Even they are not immune. Inquisitors become corrupt all the time, and Eldar are far from immune.
Chaos Eldar are rare, very rare.
>But it is true. They left artifacts woefully insecure, thought they recognised Chaos where it was not present and failed to recognise Chaos were it was.
The artifacts were secure enough for their own society.
>Because it almost universally does. Almost everything has been corrupted by Chaos at one point.
Almost everything is not everything.
>Calth had Chaos lurking below the surface. Wasn't a problem or even noticeable until the Word Bearers showed up and found it.
Not a comparable example, Calth did not have chaos artifacts on display.
>The Interex were so poor that they did not last even a few years to fight Chaos. The Imperium is better objectively.
The Interex were functional as a self-contained system, the Imperium was not. The Interex are better objectively.
>>44193152
>It's more of an awakening than genetic proliferation.
So a certain percentage of humanity needs to become awakened to their power for the Imperium Win Condition.
Ok.
Still doesn't solve >>44193023 or the fact that everyone who is awakened is either enslaved, killed, or serves Chaos. Unless literally every single human awakes at the same moment, this is not going to happen.
>>44193071
its only a small portion like churchs compared to other builds in the Christian nations and what of the mechanicus if they had the free time and chance to look for STCs and didnt have to devote almost all resources to the war effort
>>44193092
>It would be safer and easier to focus on building a pocket empire than to stretch your forces thin attempting to conquer the galaxy, if your goal is the preservation of humanity then that would be the better option.
Until you get smashed by the far larger outside power. Kind of like exactly what happened.
>Chaos would not have been able to pull said strings if the Imperium's higher-ups were any good at ferreting out chaos corruption or even knew what chaos was. A failing of the Emperor to teach them that would cost him dear.
The Emperor believed the Astartes to be immune. He was wrong. And that's the Emperor, greatest human psyker to ever live.
>Translated: "We have no evidence of Chaos in their ranks, but I'm going to just go ahead and assume it's there anyway."
I'm not assuming it's there, I'm saying it could be either in the present or the future. The Interex are clearly very lax in their handling of Chaos, so frankly it was only a matter of time.
>It wasn't the power of the chaos artifacts that destroyed the Interex, it was the power of the astartes crusade fleets.
Directed at them by the hand of Chaos. If you can have someone shoot someone else, that does not lessen your own power, on the contrary it increases it.
>Firstly, theft by military forces of a dangerous artifact from another power is an aggressive action, Secondly Erebus also blew up the place it was held, which is a very aggressive action.
Okay, fair enough. It does not change that it was foolish to attack a more powerful opponent, dooming themselves to extinction because of a comparatively minor act of destruction which may or may not have been accidental from their point of view.
>Interex soldiers were evenly matched with Horus' astartes.
So what? They could be better than Horus' Marines and still lose. They picked a fight with a giant and were squashed like a bug.
>hate the xenos their betrayal is inherent
>ignore chaos, the greatest weapon against them is ignorance
>betrayed by own sons whose ignorance left them no defenses against chaos.
>tragedy of the perfect man is hubris
>humanity's greatest enemy is itself.
>>44193311
>Not really, Psykers still make up a statistically tiny portion of humanity.
It's growing larger in leaps and bounds. Survival is not likely, but it is possible thanks to the Emperor.
>Not everything is about making yourself feel better, anon.
True, so the xenos need to be wiped out for the future's sake.
>It is telling that one didn't, also telling that Chaos Eldar are vanishingly rare.
Chaos only needs one to create havoc.
>According to you.
According to the fluff. The Interex were only human.
>Chaos Eldar are rare, very rare.
Common enough.
>The artifacts were secure enough for their own society.
So far, and well, they were left out for those who they suspected of Chaos taint, so that was a bad move.
>Almost everything is not everything.
But it is most things.
>Not a comparable example, Calth did not have chaos artifacts on display.
It didn't have them in statis either, just out in the open. Chaos doesn't need to corrupt all the time, and can pick and choose its moments.
>The Interex were functional as a self-contained system, the Imperium was not. The Interex are better objectively.
The Imperium has function far longer than the Interex.
>>44193374
>Until you get smashed by the far larger outside power. Kind of like exactly what happened.
What far larger outside power? There were none in the galaxy at that point.
>The Emperor believed the Astartes to be immune. He was wrong.
That just compounds his failure, on what was he basing his belief in the Astartes' incorruptibility?
>I'm not assuming it's there, I'm saying it could be either in the present or the future. The Interex are clearly very lax in their handling of Chaos, so frankly it was only a matter of time.
Again, the Interex' handling of chaos had gone well for them so far. It might have gone to shit in the future but that's the same as saying that the new fission plant a few miles from your house that's been there since the cold war might go nuclear in the future. It's a possibility, but based on what's happened up until now it's statistically unlikely.
>Directed at them by the hand of Chaos. If you can have someone shoot someone else, that does not lessen your own power, on the contrary it increases it.
The argument was about the comparative vulnerabilities of the Imperium and the Interex to chaotic corruption, if the Interex only fell because someone in the Imperium was corrupted by chaos it supports their superiority in this regard.
>it was foolish to attack a more powerful opponent, dooming themselves to extinction because of a comparatively minor act of destruction which may or may not have been accidental from their point of view
Aren't you the guy talking about how the Imperium hasn't failed yet in spite of the overwhelming odds stacked against it? The Interex would not have been allowed to retain their cultural identity anyway, war with the Imperium was a matter of when rather than if.
>So what? They could be better than Horus' Marines and still lose. They picked a fight with a giant and were squashed like a bug.
See above.
>>44193152
anon what you seem not to get is how much big E fucked up. Humanity in the 40k universe is not progressing its regressing. It's people both common and noble are turning more and more to chaos because the goverment is so fucking corrupt, it's armys more often fall back than push onward, all the teaching of emp are more or less lost and their big leader is dead. There is no scientific progress and any means of defending agents chaos and macrons are undone because the inquisition wont let anything out. The empire is the third reich after it has been driven out of Stalingrad, still powerful and dangers but doomed in the end, brought down party by the stupidity of it's leader
>>44193324
>So a certain percentage of humanity needs to become awakened to their power for the Imperium Win Condition.
Yup.
>Still doesn't solve >>44193023
How not? By becoming strong enough there is no gateway to hell in your head. Chaos can't corrupt you.
>or the fact that everyone who is awakened is either enslaved, killed, or serves Chaos.
They won't be enslaved, will be difficult to kill and won't serve Chaos unless they really wanted to.
>Unless literally every single human awakes at the same moment, this is not going to happen.
I don't see how not. They just need to for the apotheosis to come before the Emperor dies.
It's unlikely to happen, but it's the only chance humanity has.
>>44193582
the only chance the empire has is re-forming its ruling style, getting back to scientific advancment, installing a soft handed authorytarian goverment and making peace with tau+eldar to wreck chaos and nids
>>44193497
>It's growing larger in leaps and bounds. Survival is not likely, but it is possible thanks to the Emperor.
The current sorry state of the Imperium is also the fault of the Emperor's unwillingness to share the truth of chaos with his chief generals, who were left utterly unprepared for it. In short, the Emperor protects humanity from a threat that would not be nearly so dangerous were it not for the Emperor.
>True, so the xenos need to be wiped out for the future's sake.
That doesn't follow.
>Chaos only needs one to create havoc.
Doesn't matter, the question was how corruptible are the Eldar, and the answer was not very.
>According to the fluff. The Interex were only human.
>>44193030
>>44193044
Read those, and tell me again that the Interex were only human.
>Common enough.
No, they're not.
>So far, and well, they were left out for those who they suspected of Chaos taint, so that was a bad move.
Doesn't matter, they had no problems of chaos corruption within their own society, which is more than the Imperium can claim.
>The Imperium has function far longer than the Interex.
No, the Imperium has Dysfunctioned for far longer than the Interex.
so from this thread what I gather is
>Interex: sex ed classes in middle school
>emperor: sex isn't real, and condoms are a tool of SPACE SATAN
>>44193554
>What far larger outside power? There were none in the galaxy at that point.
There were large Ork Empires. Growing human ones too. By becoming a pocket Empire you're not helping the galaxy from Chaos.
>That just compounds his failure, on what was he basing his belief in the Astartes' incorruptibility?
Likely because there was no evidence of it (hi Interex) and also because they were descendant from him. This is why he gave the Grey Knights a closer connection to himself.
>Again, the Interex' handling of chaos had gone well for them so far.
So had the Imperium's, so had the Eldar's until a few hundred years earlier. So far doesn't cut it I'm afraid, eternal vigilance is necessary for weak humans.
>The argument was about the comparative vulnerabilities of the Imperium and the Interex to chaotic corruption, if the Interex only fell because someone in the Imperium was corrupted by chaos it supports their superiority in this regard.
The Imperium was much larger than the Interex, and had assimilated many more peoples. Chaos corruption is more likely to turn up in a larger sample size. The Imperium only became as corrupt as it did through the Interex taking shitty care of their black magic.
>Aren't you the guy talking about how the Imperium hasn't failed yet in spite of the overwhelming odds stacked against it?
Yes, because the Imperium hasn't failed. The Interex failed almost immediately.
>The Interex would not have been allowed to retain their cultural identity anyway, war with the Imperium was a matter of when rather than if.
They likely could have for the most part. Look at Ultramar, not only did their identity survive, but thrived because it was so good.
Alternatively they could have fled rather than poking the bear and then putting up their dukes.
Leman Russ did nothing wrong
>>44193742
>results of unprotected sex are STDs and pregnancy
>results of learning about chaos your very existence becoming nothing but an eternal torment from which you will never recover
>>44193637
Nope. Humanities only chance is to hold out until it has been reborn.
Chaos cannot be defeated through mere force of arms.
>>44193774
>your very existence becoming nothing but an eternal torment from which you will never recover
Yeah, that sounds like herpes alright
>>44193774
>implying an unplanned babby isn't just that
>>44193766
>>>/mlp/
>>44193804
say that to someone who was beaten up by a khornite then raped by a slaneeshi because the couldn't do anything infected by nurglite diseases all for the lulz of a tzeentchian
>>44193837
say that to someone who got his high school gf pregnant because she wasn't on the pill
>>44193777
defeated? Maybe not, driven back to the eye of terror and contained there? Most likely, if you have necron or eldar levels of technology and the empires numbers+production. Moreover, chaos is retarded as shit, not humanities biggest problem. The necron orcks or nids will wreck them soon if they keep this up
What about the tree of life Leman Russ shit
imo 40k isn't going to move anywhere soon, it's still making money
>>44193881
humanities biggest problem is they dont have the technology they need to run the imperium
>>44193753
>There were large Ork Empires. Growing human ones too. By becoming a pocket Empire you're not helping the galaxy from Chaos.
Fair point, I'll concede that.
>Likely because there was no evidence of it (hi Interex) and also because they were descendant from him. This is why he gave the Grey Knights a closer connection to himself.
So because there's no evidence of these beings being affected by this thing that can affect just about everything else, he assumed they were completely immune to it?
>So had the Imperium's, so had the Eldar's until a few hundred years earlier. So far doesn't cut it I'm afraid, eternal vigilance is necessary for weak humans.
The Imperium''s handling of chaos wasn't good though, the warrior lodges were already a thing by that point. And if the current Imperium is any indication, their 'eternal vigilance' is a lot less effective than what the Interex had going on.
>The Imperium was much larger than the Interex, and had assimilated many more peoples. Chaos corruption is more likely to turn up in a larger sample size. The Imperium only became as corrupt as it did through the Interex taking shitty care of their black magic.
The Interex's black magic only became relevant because of the already present corruption within the Imperium, who did not bother to screen for chaos corruption (see Typhon, Erebus etc...) because they did not know it existed.
>Yes, because the Imperium hasn't failed. The Interex failed almost immediately.
The Imperium failed when half of it's armies betrayed it, killed it's leader and reduced it to a crumbling husk. The Interex were already an established civilization well before they were encountered, which gives them a much longer lifespan as a nation that actually functions.
>They likely could have for the most part. Look at Ultramar, not only did their identity survive, but thrived because it was so good.
Ultramar was the personal domain of a Primarch, the Interex had no such protection.
>>44193666
>The current sorry state of the Imperium is also the fault of the Emperor's unwillingness to share the truth of chaos with his chief generals, who were left utterly unprepared for it. In short, the Emperor protects humanity from a threat that would not be nearly so dangerous were it not for the Emperor.
Chaos is far more dangerous than the Corrupt Space Marine Legions. Were it not for the Emperor the galaxy would already be the domain of Chaos. He does far more to protect the galaxy than harm it.
>That doesn't follow.
How not? Since not everything needs to respect feeling we are free to do more unsavoury things from the greater good.
>Doesn't matter, the question was how corruptible are the Eldar, and the answer was not very.
But corruptible enough. Commoragh almost fell because of a single corrupt Eldar. Chaos doesn't need much wiggle room.
>Read those, and tell me again that the Interex were only human.
i was referring to the human Interex, not their Chaotic alien smiths.
>No, they're not.
Yes they are.
>Doesn't matter, they had no problems of chaos corruption within their own society, which is more than the Imperium can claim.
None that we know about. We didn't see the Interex extensively. From what we did see there was nothing they did extensively to guard themselves from Chaos.
>No, the Imperium has Dysfunctioned for far longer than the Interex.
It's function and in fact has even thrived.
>>44193912
yes, because technological advancment is heresy and all who modifay their standard equipment must be blamed
>>44193753
>So had the Imperium's, so had the Eldar's until a few hundred years earlier. So far doesn't cut it I'm afraid, eternal vigilance is necessary for weak humans.
Just an aside: the Emperor's brand of vigilance wasn't vigilance, it was ignorance. And it clearly didn't work. At all.
It worked even worse than the Interex's, because it gave Chaos all their nicest stuff. The Imperium's current state is Chaos winning. It's a maelstrom of suffering to feed upon forever.
>>44193881
>defeated? Maybe not, driven back to the eye of terror and contained there? Most likely
Don't be an silly. Chaos can't be "contained" in the Eye of Terror, only their mortal armies. The actual threat, the reality rending daemons can come from anywhere.
>>44193942
isn't the mechanus is starting to experiment and unleash their creativity
>>44194022
from what i know we dont really know, all we know is that the armys of mars are beaing revealed. Plus it's a tad late and unless they start building super-science-stations like right now, they still can get buttfucked
>>44194022
>some colonel ranked guardsman gets pissed and creates a buttload of stugs from damaged leman russes
I want this to happen
a weapon based on the soldier's need instead of memetech
>>44194015
yes anon, but the army of the empire has a tendency of dealing with heresy, not hordes of chaos space marines and other traitors, plus the beter the life of the people the less temptation is there to go full chaos
>>44193941
>Chaos is far more dangerous than the Corrupt Space Marine Legions.
And yet for so long it did almost nothing, but with the Chaos Legions it stands poised to overrun the galaxy at any given moment.
>How not? Since not everything needs to respect feeling we are free to do more unsavoury things from the greater good.
An even greater good would take the needs of the groups you intend to exterminate into account, thus eliminating the possibility of your genocide plan.
>But corruptible enough. Commoragh almost fell because of a single corrupt Eldar. Chaos doesn't need much wiggle room.
U wot m8?
>i was referring to the human Interex, not their Chaotic alien smiths.
How about their translators?
>Yes they are.
No they're not.
>None that we know about. We didn't see the Interex extensively. From what we did see there was nothing they did extensively to guard themselves from Chaos.
From what we did see they had no problems with chaos corruption in spite of being aware of chaos' existence, thus they must have been doing something right.
>It's function and in fact has even thrived.
The Imperium has in no way 'thrived', it's been decaying continuously since the heresy, with more and more humans falling to chaos or xenos with every passing year. Technology has stagnated and regressed, bureaucracy and corruption are obstructive and omnipresent. The Imperium is a failed state.
>>44193931
>So because there's no evidence of these beings being affected by this thing that can affect just about everything else, he assumed they were completely immune to it?
They could not affect the Emperor so far as the Emperor knew and he had some experience in this matter since he had battled Chaos for tens of thousands of years. But yes, even he underestimated Chaos in the end.
>The Imperium''s handling of chaos wasn't good though, the warrior lodges were already a thing by that point.
The Warrior lodges were there, but were not insidious yet. They simply provided a good vector for corruption later.
>And if the current Imperium is any indication, their 'eternal vigilance' is a lot less effective than what the Interex had going on.
Not really, the Imperium has been around much longer. They are much more wise to the ways of Chaos than the Interex demonstrated themselves to be.
>The Interex's black magic only became relevant because of the already present corruption within the Imperium, who did not bother to screen for chaos corruption (see Typhon, Erebus etc...) because they did not know it existed.
Chaos corruption is not easily screen for if there is no accompanying physical corruption. Chaos was moving subtly at this time.
>The Imperium failed when half of it's armies betrayed it, killed it's leader and reduced it to a crumbling husk. The Interex were already an established civilization well before they were encountered, which gives them a much longer lifespan as a nation that actually functions.
The Imperium did not fail then. It withstood the insidious attack, and all other attacks from ten thousand years. It is a far more resilient civilization than the Interex.
>Ultramar was the personal domain of a Primarch, the Interex had no such protection.
So what? There are plenty of cultures around, even Terra itself retained several nations. Cultures only die when given up on. Good cultures the Imperium will even put to use.
>>44184462
It wasn't his first attempt.
>>44193958
>Just an aside: the Emperor's brand of vigilance wasn't vigilance, it was ignorance. And it clearly didn't work. At all.
Ignorance for most. It works well for the most part.
>The Imperium's current state is Chaos winning. It's a maelstrom of suffering to feed upon forever.
Chaos wins when it consumes the galaxy.
The Emperor just needs to hold out for as long as he can to prevent this.
>>44194062
>yes anon, but the army of the empire has a tendency of dealing with heresy, not hordes of chaos space marines and other traitors, plus the beter the life of the people the less temptation is there to go full chaos
The temptation is always there if even given the choice. People always look for a better way.
>>44194184
yes, but the less you curbstomp the underdog the less temptation there is. The deamon has a potential of showing up, chaos marines WILL
>>44194139
I don't think anyone can take the Emperor seriously about Chaos when it was revealed that he bargained with the Chaos Gods and drank their Koolaid.
>The last time Alivia had climbed these particular steps, her legs were like rubber and fear sweat coated her back like a layer of frost. She’d helped him come back to the world; her arm around his waist, his across her shoulder. She’d tried to keep his thoughts – normally so impenetrable – from reaching into her, but he was too powerful, too raw and too damaged from what lay beyond the gate to keep everything inside.
>She’d seen things she wished she hadn’t. Futures she’d seen in her nightmares ever since or inked in the pages of a forgotten storybook. Abominable things that were now intruding on the waking world, invited in by those who hadn’t the faintest clue of what a terrible mistake they were making.
-Vengeful Spirit
The Emperor bargained with Chaos and allowed their power into his body and mind. It's pretty damning.
>>44194074
>And yet for so long it did almost nothing, but with the Chaos Legions it stands poised to overrun the galaxy at any given moment.
It destroyed the Eldar. There have been Chaos Legions for ten thousand years in the material universe. Quite a while.
The greatest danger now is the thinning of the veil of reality.
>An even greater good would take the needs of the groups you intend to exterminate into account, thus eliminating the possibility of your genocide plan.
What? Why would I need to take their needs into account if they're going to shit everything up?
>U wot m8?
Even a single agent of Chaos can bring the downfall of civilizations. As very nearly demonstrated with the Dark Eldar.
>How about their translators?
Just the humans.
>No they're not.
Yes they are.
>From what we did see they had no problems with chaos corruption in spite of being aware of chaos' existence, thus they must have been doing something right.
We did not see much of them. We know from other fluff that knowledge of Chaos brings corruption.
>The Imperium has in no way 'thrived', it's been decaying continuously since the heresy, with more and more humans falling to chaos or xenos with every passing year. Technology has stagnated and regressed, bureaucracy and corruption are obstructive and omnipresent. The Imperium is a failed state.
The Imperium has totally thrived:
>Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.
>>44187100
The Corax book pretty much hints that in reality he's a tiny little shriveled up brown man, but being essentially existing in both the warp and reality at the same time he would appear as different aspects to different people like Magnus.
>>44185647
Also this, you've got to realize as well that for most of his life he's lived in eras where the human rights we cherish would seem like a dream if they were even considered.
>>44194434
> reality he's a tiny little shriveled up brown man, but being essentially existing in both the warp and reality at the same time he would appear as different aspects to different people
But was this before or after his first visit to Molech?
>>44192048
The Emperor is a genius with booksmarts, is what the guy means. A regular person with no education looks at a thunderstorm and assumes it must be the work of some greater being; the Emperor looks at a thunderstorm and figures out that it's just an odd reaction of wet air and temperature fuckups.
>>44194184
>The Emperor just needs to hold out for as long as he can to prevent this.
He cannot win. The system that he designed and put in place, the system that keeps him alive and in power, is FUNDAMENTALLY incapable of reaching any endgame in which it defeats Chaos.
Lets look at this shit in detail.
The Imperium is stretched thin across the galaxy out of some kind of manifest destiny ideology instead of consolidating its power into a densely defended region that it can actually reliably protect and control. This makes the Imperium prone to death by a thousand cuts as it is incapable of fielding the power it needs to actually deal with the threats against it without sacrificing vast amounts of territory to other problems. This is exactly why the Tau still exists, and makes a purely military victory impossible, as evidenced by the fact that the Imperium is constantly losing ground.
The Imperium is incapable of using its vast lifespan to come up with new solutions to their problems because of an ideology of stagnation owing in large part to the shortsighted deal that the Emperor cut with the AdMech to get the Great Crusade rolling as fast as possible. the Admech are terrified of new technology, refuse to believe that any alien technology could be better than anything they already have, and covert the archeotech of the DAOT era as the only thing humanity should ever have access to. Which is fine in some regards, because DAOT tech was legitimately badass, but fails to account for the fact that the DAOT era fucking failed in large part to the mistakes of their technology (Iron men rebellion). The AdMech solution to that was to just ban AI and anything that needed it to function, but in the long term this means that the AdMech will NEVER allow the Imperium to advance beyond a pale imitation of a demonstrably failed empire, when they desperately need new technology and new solutions for new problems.
[cont]
>>44195503
At this point, the Imperium would have been better off just setting aside an industrialized planet after the Horus Heresy and telling it to pretend that the AdMech didn't exist at all. If they had, they would have functional DAOT-esq technology by now, not by praying to it but by simply being willing to tech up from scratch over the course of thousands of years JUST LIKE HUMANS DID THE FIRST TIME. The Imperium has spent TWICE AS LONG punching itself in the dick courtesy of the Admech than the Dark Age of Technology itself lasted from start to finish
But enough about the tech, lets talk about Chaos.
The current setup of the Imperium is the absolute worst possible setup to combat Chaos imagineable, short of just saying "fuck it" and worshiping Khorne directly. Untold trillions of people are kept in abject misery conditions such that even a shitty deal of being a slave with a 1/1000 chance of maybe being powerful someday is still a better deal than they have now. None of these people know anything about Chaos at all, even that it exists, so it is incredibly easy to mislead them by straight up lying about how Chaos works or the long term effects of working with them. Their culture explicitly tells them that ignorance is their duty and they should follow anyone in a big religious hat, which is why more than half of the Chaos cults that gain power on Imperial worlds start off as worship of "Imperial Saints" that are just Chaos in disguise. When a 'do what I say and never ask questions' death cult is their default mode anyway, co-opting them in a cult is basically child's play. They are told nothing about Chaos out of fear of one or two assholes willingly turning to Chaos out of lust for power, but in reality they have left their entire population open to predation by powers that are cunning and insidious when you know what to look for, and utterly impossible to defend yourself against if you don't even know they exist.
[cont]
>>44195541
And it will never get better. Why? Because the Imperium's supposed endgame is to buy time, no matter how many sacrifices it takes, for humanity to evolve into a race of master psykers who are immune to Chaos. After that we can stop treating each other so terribly because we will be immune to Chaos corruption and we will be powerful enough that all of our enemies will no longer be threats able to harm us.
Not only is that sort of christmasland dreaming, but the Imperium cannot get there from here. How the fuck are they supposed to universally evolve into a psyker master race when the Imperium routinely rounds up and KILLS MOST OF THEIR PSYKERS? 8 out of 10 Psykers in the Imperium get fed to the Emperor via the Golden Throne. The remaining 20% are either rogues living in fear of the system, or get put into use by the Imperium which usually means combat roles such as battlefield psykers or working as astropaths on ships.
So, for the mutation that humanity explicitly needs to get stronger and more common to win, they kill off the vast majority of them and the rest are either hunted down or put into dangerous jobs. Only a tiny fraction of the Psykers born are getting the chance to breed and make more psykers/stronger psykers. The Imperium at this point would be desperetly reaching just to make a country exclusively of psykers, much less a race of them. They are doing the exact thing they need to not be doing if they want to evolve humanity into a psychic race.
And thats why the Imperium literally cannot win, because it has dug itself into the deepest fucking hole imagineable. And most of that is the Emperor's direct fault, even ignoring how he fucked up with the Primarchs.
>>44194074
>>44194139
>>44194184
>>44194284
>>44194318
Is this a case of "identifyingCarnacyupitsCarnac.jpg"?
>>44195541
The Admech weren't exactly handed a good situation to start with. They were shitheads, but not for no reason, and not in their entirety.
>>44195652
That pasta gets posted all the time, and its true that it explains how the technology level managed to drop as much as it has. But it in no way excuses their behavior when to comes to technological advancement over the past 10000 years, which despite what 40k tries to pass it off as is not an insignificant period of time. In the time it took us to go from wooden wheels to missions to mars, The Admech created a different helmet for space marines and FOUND a .dat file for 3D printing better sporks.
>>44196008
>In the time it took us to go from wooden wheels to missions to mars
Humanity has existed for hundreds of thousands of years, only comparatively recently has technology advanced quickly.
>>44196088
Sure, but technology and systems to dispense data exponentially speeds up that process. The speed at which advancement happens jumps up immeasurably after the rise of literacy, climbs as education becomes more widespread, and fucking explodes with the invention of useable computers.
With the level of technology that they already have (planet wide communications, computers, etc) there really is no excuse for what is taking them so long.
>>44196008
>But it in no way excuses their behavior when to comes to technological advancement over the past 10000 years
why? They KNOW the dangers of technology. They bear witness to those dangers every single day of their extremely long lives. The one constant in a long-insane memory.
The people who play fast and loose with tech are those who are actively in the field and have the training to manage it. Which basically boils down to Marines and Inquisitors.
>>44196139
They don't really know how to work any of it is how.
Give a caveman a computer and he might accidentally be able to use the GUI to do some shit, but he's never going to write a program.
>>44196197
And that gives an excuse for the first couple of hundred years of stagnation. But you are seriously pushing the limits of credulity by the time of 10,000.
I assure you, if you took a smartphone back to the year 1000 AD, they would think it was magic and have no idea what to do with it then. But, eventually, their descendants will very slowly figure shit out.
Under no circumstances should it take longer to re-create technology with access to examples of it than it took you to build that technology from banging rocks together the first time.
>>44196400
>And that gives an excuse for the first couple of hundred years of stagnation.
And for all after.
Their descendants would more likely break the phone than be able to figure out what was going on.
Imagine the phone had become essential to them in some way, no way in hell would they allow some retard to break it down and try to study it.
>>44196606
> And for all after.
Man, it sure does suck that after the antikythera device sank beneath the waves during ancient times, literally no one ever figured out Clockwork technology ever again. Because, as we all know, losing something once means no one can ever figure it out ever again no matter how much time or resources they have.
>>44190974
How did they unite "millions" of worlds if there were only max 20 legions and did 1-10 planets for like 100 years.
>>44196606
Theirs also the plot to take into account the imperium can't get any kind of real serouis tech advantage because it would be a MASSIVE force multiplier due to all the resources they have at their disposal which would then allow them to beat groups like the tau into extinction while being able to better hold back other forces
>>44196715
Clockwork isn't quite the same as high tech sci fi stuff.
That's simple mechanical movement.
>>44197113
Tell that to Erasmus Haarlock
>>44196853
Yes, from a metaplot perspective humanity being competent at technology rather than retarded and religious with it would make the Imperium too powerful for anyone else to compete with.
The problem is that the justification GW tries to give for the total technological stagnation is horseshit as any history student could explain.
It doesn't really matter if the technology is sci-fi, there is ample knowledge and understanding of technology that makes modern day real world tech look like what a bunch of apes mashed together out of rocks and sticks. The Mechanicus has not innovated more than a few extremely basic, not even sci-fi inventions over the course of 10,000 years. Every piece of technology you see in 40k had its designs come from the Great Crusade, or else the item itself is just a surviving ancient relic from bygone times, like power weapons, plasma and melta weapons, anti-gravity units, and so on.
It is a fucking gigantic galaxy full of people, and not a single one discovered any secrets behind anything for ten thousand years. Mars being fucked beyond all reckoning is completely irrelevant - Mars is not the only planet in the galaxy. Individual planets that are at the technological and scientific levels of the Roman Empire in the year 30,000 should have advanced to their own little Golden Age of Technology by the year 40,000, and the Mechanicus should have been taking the best and brightest inventions from each of these prospering planets and standardizing them across the Imperium. But no, none of this happens, because 40k has to be grimdark.
>>44196717
Legions can be broken up. Maybe all a world needs is two hundred marines and some Imperial Army. Maybe it needs 50,000 marines descending on it with fire and fury.
>>44197960
Moar clocks
>>44197965
ftl and communications technology is also pretty shitty because of the warp that's partly what brought down Daot humanity
>>44198395
Sure, but if anything that should make it IMPOSSIBLE for tech to be as stagnant as it is: if FTL and intersolar comms are that unreliable, the Admech shouldn't be ABLE to keep such a stranglehold on technology. Planets full of people should inevitably develop their own curious minds and smart people who, bit by bit, advance local technology simply as a result of using it frequently and wanting their everyday lives to be a little bit easier.
Planets separated by vast distances, infrequently visited, should advance their tech, each planet ending up with a slightly different answer to common problems, or rediscovering/advancing something that their nearest neighboring planet didn't. Even if it takes decades, eventually those planets get in contact and swap some of their trade secrets, and now both of them are better off.
But this is 40k. So presumably the above happens, and then the AdMech finds out and drives a cruiser to their doorstep and blasts all of their cities to ashes, using giant loudspeakers to tell the survivors that being smart is against the rules and they should all stop trying.
>>44190118
Actually Lorgar has been stuck in a refrigerator since 999.M34
>>44191766
So... basically the entire story of the emperor is if a savant autist became an immortal psyker beyond power and tried to run a whole society by himself.
>>44200676
Sort of. He was immortal, immensely powerful, and had more than enough time to become an expert in hundreds of different scientific fields. However, absolutely none of this translated into good decision making, but he still had all of the arrogance you would expect of someone in that position.
>>44188745
you trust the tau on melee combat
>>44186906
Those who can, do. Those who can't, do who they teach.
>>44188584
He was still a primarch. It'd be a waste.
>>44194434
>Also this, you've got to realize as well that for most of his life he's lived in eras where the human rights we cherish would seem like a dream if they were even considered.
Depends on what you mean by human rights. Throughout most of history, though they were not called that, you get this sort of commonplace ambient idea that people, or at least members of a given society, ought to be treated in certain ways and not others. The existence of laws forbidding murder and theft imply people's rights to life and possession, even if it is never explicitly spelled out as such.
>>44181865
>Colchian legend also talked of great prophets, Khaane, Tezen, Slanat and Narag who made a journey to seek the home of the gods known as the Pilgrimage.[2d]
And nobody saw the heresy coming? Nobody?
>>44206115
How so?
The War Hounds had competent commanders before he turned up.
Same with the Night Lords. Or Space Wolves.
Giving a Legion of super soldiers to clearly unsuited nut job only because they are the kid you never met is not a clever thing to do.
>>44201071
An Ethereal said it.
They dig swords.
>>44187742
The Emperor was pretty shit, desu.
Hes just a glorified plot device.
Unless we are roleplaying here, on that case MY FAITH IN THE EMPEROR IS MY TORCH USED TO LIT HERETICS ON FIRE!
>>44195575
It's well established there's a constant increase in the psykers being born and the Black Ships are woefully overcrowded with each passing generation.
Whether or not it makes sense, established fluff shows psykers are the future for humanity--but that immune-to-Chaos bit is bullshit. Simply bullshit. If anything they'L go Eldar-tier and birth a 5th Chaos God.
Fuck, maybe it'll BE the Emperor.
