Where did the idea that bigger ship=more powerful ship come from anyway?
>>44134027
where did the idea of bigger army = more powerful army come from anyway?
>>44134027
The fact that a larger ship can carry more weapons, sensors, and defensive systems. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
>>44134027
Spacecraft are phallic symbols. And the patriarchy wants to control the space program.
>>44134027
Maybe because in reality bigger ships are typically more powerful?
>>44134027
Real life?
IRL, the bigger something is, the harder it is to kill, and the more weapons and armor it can carry because it's simply bigger.
There are exceptions to this rule, but it's a rule for a reason.
>>44134027
From general engineering.
For one space doesn't have as much gravity as you think, meaning you can get away with really huge weird shaped ships.
>>44134027
>Where did the idea that bigger gun=more powerful gun come from anyway?
>Where did the idea that bigger sword=more powerful sword come from anyway?
>Where did the idea that bigger tank=more powerful tank come from anyway?
>Where did the idea that bigger dick=more powerful dick come from anyway?
>Where did the idea that bigger stick=more powerful stick come from anyway?
Gee idk anon, it must have bloomed out of nowhere
>>44134124
>>44134117
>>44134109
>>44134066
>>44134049
I hope this answers your question OP.
>>44134049
That's actually almost never true. The most effective and most devastating armies in history have all been fairly small. Look at Han China, which despite fielding armies of 300,000+ never managed to conquer Imperial Rome.
>>44134027
A larger ship has more room for thicker armor, bigger and more potent shield/power generators, larger and more numerous weapon emplacements, larger supply storage for food, water, medical supplies, fuel, and ammunition to give the ship a longer range, more room for crew to allow it to board other craft and assault ground positions, bigger thrusters for greater speed (obviously to the limit of physics, making this a bit of an uphill battle for extra velocity, depending on the tech level of your thrusters) and larger and more accurate sensors and communication equipment, among other things depending on the details of the setting.
Of course, then you run into something like a Xelee Night Fighter and it all goes out the window because it's so fucking advanced it doesn't fucking give a damn.
>>44134223
What about the mongols and the huns whose armies are described as "hordes"?
>>44134027
is this a serious question? Also how big is a super star destroyer from Star Wars to that Galaxy Class? And how big are those compared to 40k Chapter Battlebarges or flying Chapter Fortresses like the Imperial Fists and Black Templars ones?
>>44134124
Well big yes, weirdly shaped not so much. You still need to have it move, after all, and it would probably be easier to make it symmetrical and balance its mass then it would be to fine-tune the thrusters.
>>44134223
>Han China
>never managed to conquer Imperial Rome
>this was because of the nature of their armies
Have you literally never seen a map of Eurasia in your life?
>>44134256
The Mongols operated in units of 10 > 100 > 1000 > 10,000, which was their largest. I can imagine that their armies looked much larger than they were due to each soldier having multiple horses, and the conscripts they enlisted.
>>44134267
>Also how big is a super star destroyer from Star Wars to that Galaxy Class? And how big are those compared to 40k Chapter Battlebarges or flying Chapter Fortresses like the Imperial Fists and Black Templars ones?
Much smaller than a Culture GSV.
>>44134223
The palming on my face should be audible from the moon, void and all.
>>44134027
I don't know, probably from the fact that the bigger the hull, the more guns and armor and engines you can put in it.
>>44134256
They move so fast that there are virtually twice as many of them.
>>44134267
>>44134267
star wars is fantasy. the ships are as big as the plot calls for.
>>44134283
>>44134310
What? It's verifiable fact that Han China never conquered Imperial Rome. The evidence stands alone.
>>44134315
That reminds me. Did anyone else, for the longest time, think the name "Star Destroyer" was suppose to mean "a ship that destroys stars"(though not literal)? It took me forever to realize what it really meant.
>>44134348
Yes, alone and utterly separate from the point that it's supposed to support.
a bolt traveling at 10 km/s will fuck up anything we currently have in orbit.
>>44134292
Tolui Khan marched with an army of about 50,000 to obliterate the Khwarezmid dynasty.
However admittedly the real strength of the mongols wasn't the size of their forces, but the ability of their mounted archers and their unsurpassed mastery of siege warfare.
>>44134370
Were you dropped as a kid? If they had literal star destroyers then what did they need the death star for?
No. we grew up going to the library to read the incredible cross-sections books.
>>44134315
Neat, wish it had more on it.
>>44134370
Wait, is that not what it means?
>>44134395
I took it to be a hyperbolic title.
>>44134379
because spaceships are built to be light.
Also, just 2km/s is sufficient. at that speed it strikes with the equivalent energy of its weight in tnt.
>>44134386
>their unsurpassed mastery of siege warfare.
Rather, the unsurpassed mastery at siege warfare of the Chinese engineers they brought with them.
>>44134027
Naval warfare, OP. The largest ships got the most and biggest cannons back in the day of sail, and in the modern day the largest vessels by far are the insurmountable supercarriers, regarded as the most potent military force able to be fielded, excluding nuclear arms.
Space is just the ocean as far as writers are concerned.
>>44134378
>Han fields armies of 300,000
>Rome fields armies of several thousand
>Rome never loses to Han
Seems pretty fucking related to me, retard.
>>44134403
It's a Destroyer, that sails the sea of Stars.
So it's a Star Destroyer. Had they been less derivative, we would have seen Star Corvettes and Star Dreadnaughts.
>>44134403
Destroyers are a type of naval vessel.
>>44134403
Destroyer is a class of ship, generally larger than a frigate but smaller than a cruiser.
Star means it's a Starship.
>>44134027
Bigger is better.
>>44134403
The idea is it's a destroyer (class of warship) capable of interstellar travel, I figure.
>>44134442
but submarines/torpedo bombers pretty much invalidated big ships in that analogy
>>44134473
>>44134481
Pretty sure it's more thematic than that. Star refers to the medium more than the method of travel. We call them Airships, not Propellerships.
>>44134482
How do you get a submarine in space?
>>44134482
See the SSV Normandy from Mass Effect, which is compared to a submarine in-story, and Fighter/Bombers, which carried torpedoes powerful enough to threaten(but not invalidate) large ships.
>>44134482
any analogy comparing space to the ocean is nothing more than anachronism.
they cannot be compared.
>>44134516
It's from Star Wars.
>>44134524
Fictional stealth technology.
>>44134445
Battle of Carhae.
>>44134395
>>44134417
You're both right, I guess.
Those cross-section books were great, but the one I read explicitly claimed "star destroyer" was a term used to indicate that its theoretical weapon power output was comparable to that of a star. It still can't blow one up since its turbo-lasers simply can't hurt a star, or even feed that much power to its guns at once without breaking everything, but it is still within the ship's theoretical limitations.
Of course, the cannon would change every other week with Star Wars.
>>44134445
To say that the size of their respective armies would have been a factor between a hypothetical conflict between Han Dynasty China and Imperial Rome would not be wrong; however, it is important not to trivialize other factors, such as the fact that Emperor Wu never had any reason to endanger the established trade partnership the two shared with aggressive military expansion, or that there were two fucking continents between them holy shit anon.
>>44134027
Depending on the setting's method of faster than light travel, a bigger ship might make more sense.
>>44134482
Submarines can kill supercarriers or the largest of destroyers, certainly, but would you say a submarine is therefore "more powerful"? It's more of a scissors beats paper counter-play. The submarine doesn't field more force than the supercarrier, it just fights in a way the carrier can't fight back.
>>44134524
Subspace, ironically. There's a Dimensional Submarine in Space Battleship Yamato. I'll see if i can't whip up a webm since there's apparently no footage available.
>>44134348
Neither did US Army. A clear proof that the roman testudo was nuke-proof.
>>44134445
Is this b8? I've been here too long. Please tell me this is b8
>>44134549
Right, and star wars is very thematic. So i think the "Star" in star destroyer just refers to the medium, that is "among the stars"
>>44134386
It was also the size of their army- cavalry of that scale had never been seen before, even the huns didn't reach mongol numbers
>>44134580
There were two continents between Rome AND Han China and the Americas too, but they both discovered them.
>>44134027
More space = more mass to eat hits and more spots to put guns and more generators for shields and shit
>>44134633
...the US Kinda did conquer Italy. Patton and all.
>>44134556
Those books were written to deliberately one-up the figures in the star trek technical manuals. They're complete lunacy and we see no evidence in any of the films that a turbolaser hits harder than a hiroshima bomb.
>>44134622
While we wait, here's the tarkin doctrine.
>>44134650
Is that supposed to be a counterargument? Exploration is not remotely similar to military expansion.
Just because travelers and merchants could make the journey along the Silk Road does not mean that three hundred soldiers could viably do so.
>>44134482
But it doesn't work in space. Unless you have the Little Doctor-like device of course. But keeping to "conventional" scifi, bigger is better all the time.
>>44134445
>Republic of China has army of 1,250,000
>Iceland has no standing army
>Iceland never loses to China
Checkmate gooks.
>>44134672
Italy is not Rome, by any stretch of imagination. I mean, the landmass is there, and bits of language, but that's about all the common points.
>>44134720
It works just fine. Why wouldn't it? If you get a missile going fast enough, it can't be mitigated.
>>44134744
And the city named Rome. Which is Rome.
>>44134742
>United States Army has 512,000 people
>Madagascar's army has 12,000 people
>Madagascar has never lost to the U.S. Army.
Checkmate amerifats.
>>44134445
>People's Republic of China has active military of 2,285,000
>Jupiter has active military of 0
>China has never won any battles against the Jovian Army
fuck, you're right
>>44134713
Early civilizations had no way of exploring except through their armed forces. What, you're going to send some average guy into the misty unknown? No, you're going to send your guys with swords obviously.
>>44134696
>>44134622
well shit i gotta re-download the episode.
>>44134306
Culture ships are cheating by typical sci-fi standards
>>44134776
Therefore, Roman legions defeated RAF and Royal Navy to conquer britain.
>>44134830
Um. Have you heard of the concept of cartographers?
>>44134775
Yes it can, with lasers. Lasers start outperforming kinetics in space combat very early.
And the bigger those lasers, the better. And it's even worse for reactors - most reactors not only get more powerful as the size increases, they get more efficient.
>>44134306
>>44134880
The Culture is for doctor who fans who like to jerk off about magic and think they're superior to any other sci fi fans for some reason.
>>44134914
Confirmed.
>>44134922
Yeah, but cartography was invented in like the 15th century. That's why maps before then are so fucked up looking.
>>44134927
>lasers
And this is why everything is reflective chrome in the future.
>>44134950
So the only way to explore before 1401 was to send an army?
>>44134930
>The Culture is for doctor who fans who like to jerk off about magic and think they're superior to any other sci fi fans for some reason.
I never heard it put that way but you're right. I've always thought of the Culture as Star Trek done right, or as the liberal-westerner utopian fantasy taken to its ultimate onanistic conclusion.
>>44134950
... Please tell me you're trolling. The idea that someone this stupid would wander into /tg/ is depressing.
>>44134835
Why was there water under the ice?
>>44134969
Pretty much. And Han China and Rome fought each other in America for that reason, obviously.
>>44134963
Reflection is meaningless against high-energy lasers, though. Doubly so if they're pulsed lasers.
>>44134830
Perhaps, but you're not sending 300,000 guys with swords, nor are you sending guys with swords and orders to beat up anyone they find and take their lunch money. The swords are for self-defense, in case diplomacy fails.
And note that none of this is even remotely related any more to the point that Han China not invading Rome is somehow proof that numerically inferior military forces are somehow superior to numerically superior forces. What are you even trying to say at this point, anon?
>>44134775
IF you can. There is absolutely no proof that armaments will always beat defense. We have fairly effective active defense systems today, and in development we have systems that can intercept APFSDS rounds. Given that space is much, much bigger than land, and any missile will burn bright, shooting it down shouldn't be much of a problem. I mean, we're talking about systems that even today, at ranges of few kilometers at best, have reaction time measured in 2 or 3 seconds. Missiles will easily be the least effective weapon system around.
>>44134927
>Yes it can, with lasers. Lasers start outperforming kinetics in space combat very early.
Well missiles aren't kinetics. They're nukes. All they have to do is get within a km and explode. Even with really good sensor equipment and perfect conditions, you're going to have a hard time spotting a missile designed to burn and coast towards the enemy.
There are also physical limits to turret traverse and fields of fire, and you only get so many laser shots before your heat sink is filled up.
It's not a certain win for the laser, it's not a certain win for the missile, but in a battle of attrition, the missile boat has the advantage.
>>44134027
Well the galaxy class is only that big because it was intended take a large crew and there families (for some reason) out on multi year exploration missions,
when it comes to combat capabilities the sovereign is more powerful while being smaller and the defiant class is even small and all it does is explode things really well.
>>44134223
This is it. The most retarded post I've seen all week.
>>44134990
Just report his ass. Posting garbage outside of /b/ is a bannable offense.
>>44135001
the laser melted it. it refroze as soon as the energy dissipated. It might not have even been water, it could have been liquid oxygen or something since that's pluto.
>>44134223
Hey... I'm one person. I'm the smallest army possible.
I must be unstoppable.
>>44135021
>All they have to do is get within a km and explode
pray tell, explode what? Also, "getting within a km" sounds lot easier than it would be against a manovering, high velocity target. I mean fuck..just chuck buckets of sand out of the cargo holds, that'll fuck up any missile.
>>44134742
>>44134827
>chinacantbeatnonexistentarmiesmind
>>44134650
Irrelevant. Rome and Han China never fucking fought you Colossal imbecile.
>>44135082
If you are a ninja
>>44135082
Actually half a person, like a cripple or a midget, would be even stronger.
>>44135005
Depends. It's all just light. Pulsed/high energy lasers are just dumping enough light that the mirror surface degrades.
If you had a perfect mirror (IE a hypothetical substance capable of reflecting 100% of incoming light), it would, by definition, be a perfect defense against lasers.
>>44135058
Sadly, we can't prove he's NOT just stupid.
>>44135021
Nope. Modern sensors can spot the Space Shuttle's thrusters firing as far away as Pluto, and with the rocket equation, coasting is useless for stealth.
Heat sinks are also only needed when fighting ships armed with similar power lasers. Against missiles, ships can simply leave the radiators out for continuous fire. This results in hard limits for missile effectiveness - at a given range, against a given number of projectiles, a laser-armed ship is invincible. Either the missile ships has to close in to point blank, or unleash a truly absurd quantity of buses.
For reference, this is with good drives (think, 1 GW nuclear-electric plasma) and moderate lasers (e.g. several hundred megawatts). At those power levels, it's possible for missiles to still be relevant, if they're heavily armored and fired in swarms at close range. But as laser power levels increase, missiles rapidly dwindle into impotence.
>>44135082
I'm not even a person. I'm a brain in a jar, typing this out via a program that interprets the electrical signals from my neural processes into a coherent string of letters.
>>44134830
No, actually they literally just sent random parties of diverse and interesting rougish adventurers on dangerous journies through unknown and fascinating lands to search for treasure and magic. Notable such adventurers included some dude named Marco Polo who walked from Venice to Imperial China to hunt for gold and fuck exotic bitches.
>>44134930
The Culture is a bit wanky, sure, but Banks' novels and the stories that take place in their universe are pretty fuckin' good, anon.
>>44135173
Grey's law.
Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.
>>44135021
>All they have to do is get within a km and explode
In a fictional scenario where space ships would fight each other, you'd be firing from unimaginable distances since space is huge and relatively empty, so you'd probably spot your enemy from thousands, if not tens of thousands of kilometers away. Not to mention that in a setting where interstellar travel is even plausible in the first place, ships would probably be so fast as to make hitting almost impossible across these distances. Hell, missiles probably wouldn't be as advantageous as they are in an atmosphere what with the lack of friction.
Look at how bullshit modern air combat is, then multiply that by a factor of a million and you'd probably get somewhere close to how fucked actual space battles would be.
>>44134963
Actually, reflective chrome isn't what you want. You want a paint that's reflective on the same wavelength as your enemy's lasers. Mirrors are good in the visual spectrum, but completely useless against infrared or X-Ray lasers. The question is whether you know what wavelength your opponent's lasers will be using, but if you don't know that, you're better off with ablative armor. Something that will use up the damage, get vaporized, and wear away, taking the energy behind the laser away as the vapor flies away from your ship rather than damaging you.
>>44135021
>All they have to do is get within a km and explode.
Depending on the yield of your nuke, this might not be entirely true. Nukes lose a LOT of energy to the square/cube law as the explosion radiates. Nukes are usually only good at tiny ranges.
>>44135035
>a large crew and there families (for some reason)
Two reasons. First, most of the civilians onboard are either specialists whose disciplines aren't available in the pool of Starfleet personnel, or people critical to supporting an isolated population of various species in deep space.
The Galaxy Class can theoretically be crewed by as little as eight senior officers(TNG: Remember Me) but in a time of war can carry a full crew and as many as 6,000 troops(TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise)
Main purpose of the large crews is to provide damage control in a firefight, and to serve as replacements as some crewmen die. This is a principle used by real world navies: Most real world naval ships have oversized crews for the same reasons.
>setting where ~20m ships can destroy planets if they charge long enough
>>44135288
Ender's Game
>>44135021
If you have the accuracy to get within a km, you have the accuracy to target individual viewports.
>>44134109
>>44134027
So explain the Zumwalt.
>>44135288
Arguably, if you fire a laser from a 20m ship at a planet for an infinite amount of time, you WILL eventually destroy the planet.
>>44135288
>setting where anything can destroy a planet and not just heat up the surface to the point it doesn't support life
Writers don't really know how much energy that'd take. A planet is typically very large and holding itself together with gravity at all times.
Any civilization that can generate that much energy in short order basically should have no material worries at all, because they can freely fabricate matter at far lower scales.
>>44135328
"more powerful" hasn't been relevant since the nuclear bomb was invented. Nukes reached the stat-cap on damage, now people only give a shit about other stats.
>>44135381
Then explain post-Genesis starships in Star Trek.
>>44135364
Not if it radiates heat away faster than you add it.
>>44135087
Nukes, of course. depending on the yield, 1km range is enough for impulsive shock from thermal radiation to crush the hull of the enemy ship like punching a tin can.
> Also, "getting within a km" sounds lot easier than it would be against a manovering, high velocity target.
It's a ballistic intercept. The math is simple. The thing is that the missile has the agility advantage. it can juke, and it's a lot smaller and harder to hit and even detect if designed right. have a launch drive that discards itself and takes the heat of the burn with it and it'll be damn hard to tell a missile from a stray asteroid or other bit of space shit or false signal..
>>44135065
But it was already liquid underneath the solid layer.
>>44135370
How would a space army that has possession of one mass fabricator (and couldn't duplicate it) look like?
>>44135255
>so you'd probably spot your enemy from thousands, if not tens of thousands of kilometers away
We can already do way better with our current technology. Try billions. Unless you were coasting without thrusters, odds are an enemy would spot you from an entire solar system away.
Saying you "only need to get within one kilometer" (which is highly questionable in and of itself) in a space battle is kind of like saying you only need to hit a moving target within a meter with a cruise missile fired from across half the globe.
>>44135328
The weapons procurement process for the United States armed forces is a horrific clusterfuck of wishful thinking, pork barrel spending, and cost overruns?
>>44135199
You're assuming turret mounted half gigawatt lasers?
I was assuming spinal mounts because of the power needed to vaporize aluminum at the ranges you're talking about. You probably can't have a sufficient coverage or agility to handle missiles flanking your vector.
>>44135401
Starfleet is built around a measured response appropriate to the situation. Using weapons that ONLY destroy planets goes against their stated mission of peaceful exploration. For anti-ship functions, a Photon or Quantum torpedo is easier to produce than a Genesis torpedo and works well enough, and the fact that a Galaxy class ship can use its antiship weapons to devastate the surface of an inhabited planet is good enough for Starfleet's purposes in threatening their enemies. Since the Genesis torpedo wasn't useful as a terraforming device because it only produced unstable planets, it was probably destroyed(Section 31 might have the plans on file though)
>>44134677
Especially since SW has no kind of showing like this from normal capital ships, only the deathstar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU4lYIuvg58
From that same episode, we have the Romulans calculating that in one hour, the fleet of 20 ships can disintegrate the entire planet's surface, and the entire mantle in another four hours.
>>44134223
>That's actually almost never true.
Napoleon's well trained troops totally smashed the allied forces at Waterloo right?
>>44135463
I think you're missing the issue. Yes, you can detect things from billions of miles away, but you cannot detect them were they currently are. You can do some plotting and observations, but you can only at best guess where they are going to be at distances greater than 300,000km, a light second. Billions of miles are light hours, all sorts of maneuvers can take place in that sort of time. How do you keep track of a missile that jukes too often to react until it's in killing range or beyond the physical reaction time of a mechanical turret or RCS system?
Speed is key.
>>44135524
This is why most ship-ship combat in Star Trek is each side blasting at the others' shields until one finally fails, at which point it's over.
Though it should be noted that their hulls are made of ridiculously strong materials and reinforced with "Structural Integrity Fields"
Basically they have to hold their ships together with force fields to stand up to the force of their own engines, much less enemy fire.
>>44135524
Base Delta Zero is pretty much the same thing. One Imperial II calss can do it in a few hours. Sustained fire can rupture continents.
The Death Star can do it in a secondEpisode 7's superweapon blows up entire star systems
>>44135499
Maybe in 1950 the entire laser system needed to be pointed at a target; but since the 1990s the laser engine has been housed separately from the beam director. Two laser engines per ship; then a couple forward-pointing directors (or turreted, depending on acceleration regimes) plus a few dozen smaller ones for beam-splitting for counterbattery fire against enemy lenses without risking your primaries.
>>44135500
The outpost that produced the genesis device was destroyed, and all the scientists killed by Klingons. It is doubtful that starfleet had a working version of it. They certainly could have redeveloped it, but we never saw any evidence of that.
>>44134399
>LoGH
unf
>>44135489
To be fair, the Zumwalts were originally supposed to be battlecruisers and there were supposed to be 15 of them. Then someone at the CBO said that you could get the same effect by making 30 destroyers with the same technology. Then Lockheed, Raytheon, and the other defense contractors decided to bill the government for their failures instead of taking the losses when the tech they were working on got delayed and oversight being what it is nobody challenged them on it. That's why the budget balloons every time; they're literally "too big to fail" and so the government doesn't let them take the full loss from failure. Now we're only getting 3 out of 30, just like how we only got 195 out of 500 F-22s planned and only 24 Littoral Combat Ships out of a planned 52, with more money being thrown at the program to completely rebuild the design for another 30 which will probably be cut down to 10.
>>44135644
So it's the Sun Crusher?
>>44135658
And unlike Starfleet, the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians would love to have Genesis on their hands. Since none of them broke out the Genesis Device in the Dominion War, we can pretty firmly conclude that the Genesis device isn't around.
>>44135698
Starkiller Base, but yes, they seem to be recycling the concept.
>>44135698
See that PokeBall with an atmosphere?
>>44135657
If you're talking about the boeing laser, stop. It does not have to fire 300,000km and still vaporize aluminium. that requirement jacks up the power immensely. There is no material that could bounce a 5gw laser. If you hope to fire it from closer, you had better have some magic turret gear that can traverse faster than the missile can close, and hoo boy is that ever an engineering feat. even the 99.999% reflective mirrors soak up a shitload of energy from 5gw bursts.
if my ship pulls into laser range, will you keep your radiators extended?
>>44135589
Yes, and lasers have more speed than any missile.
In fact, recently quantum-dot technology has enabled electronically steered lidar, so even the mirror addressing rate is no longer a factor. This isn't to imply that "juking" or "being beyond physical reaction times" is physically possible in a vaguely realistic setting; you need a hefty dose of handwaving for that.
Scale is the important thing in these debates and most people never realize it. Energy regime, acceleration regimes, ranges are what determine outcomes, not the precise flavor of weapon.
>>44135644
BDZ is not canon.
>>44135589
When firing missiles at an actively maneuvering target that is under power, relying upon the unpowered maneuverability of your missiles to hit an evading target is complete nonsense. If the missile starts to manuever under power, it will be seen and can be shot down, unless it has some kind of magically undetecable science fantasy drive system.
>>44135608
I want to say that there's an episode of trek where the enterprise's hull temperature is said to reach 12,000 degrees C, due to being in a star or something but I can't find it.
>>44135800
If you're talking about people talking about "the boeing laser" you need to pull your head out of the 1970s and realize that technology has moved on since then. I suggest checking out the telescope equation as well, to give yourself an idea of the hard limits that determine scale.
>>44135740
that's the first time i've ever seen any hype material for the new star wars movie and i already know that luke is the bad guy.
>>44134399
>it would take nearly 26 minutes at 100km/h to get from one end of the Executor to the other
EMPIRE
>>44135804
>Yes, and lasers have more speed than any missile.
The turret does not. Even with a perfect computer, a heavy turret takes time to accelerate to fire at an incoming missile.
>this isn't to imply that "juking" or "being beyond physical reaction times" is physically possible in a vaguely realistic setting; you need a hefty dose of handwaving for that.
Not really. If the missile does burns while in flight it can change its trajectory by quite a bit, just with little burns. The ship its going after has far too much mass to match the agility, and it's fiendishly difficult to hit at distances greater than a light second.
>Scale is the important thing in these debates and most people never realize it. Energy regime, acceleration regimes, ranges are what determine outcomes, not the precise flavor of weapon.
You should play Attack Vector: Tactical. You'd like it.
>>44135670
>That's why the budget balloons every time; they're literally "too big to fail" and so the government doesn't let them take the full loss from failure
Confirmed for economic illiterate.
It's called amortization. Research costs are fixed, so they're distributed over every unit of production, so when the number of production units is decreased, their individual prices rise.
>>44135848
It was mentioned twice in the canon Rebels tv show.
>>44135740
Is it just me, or does that front stormtrooper have golden bling armour?
>>44135848
>When firing missiles at an actively maneuvering target that is under power, relying upon the unpowered maneuverability of your missiles to hit an evading target is complete nonsense. If the missile starts to manuever under power, it will be seen and can be shot down, unless it has some kind of magically undetecable science fantasy drive system.
At ranges greater than a light second, it cannot be seen at the place it actually is. Light speed lag reduces the effectiveness of being able to see everything.
>>44135883
Don't be rude. The turreted anti-ballistic missile laser is a megawatt class chemical oxygen iodide laser operating at a frequency of 1.315 microns aka near infrared. It's fancy, but it's no space laser. If there's something new, just say it specifically.
>>44135959
That's Captain PhasmaShe's gonna be a badass
>>44136043
She's going to be a jobber.
>>44135902
It's 1.2 lightseconds to the moon; making missiles irrelevant hardly requires that much range! 100,000 km is sufficient to make lasers the reusable, flexible, and economically rational choice.
I feel so sorry for that guy who made those jokes about Han China and Rome.
>>44135948
That's not how it works. You don't set a budget and then, because you suddenly have fewer orders, your entire budget balloons to double or triple what was initially earmarked for it. The costs rise because these private companies have no barriers on cost increases. They take no penalties for failure to deliver within a specific time frame, and the government just throws more money at them.
>>44136043
not another female main char like the girl on the left - han and leia had a girl named jaina in the books i read back when - i imagine that's her.
wtf is with modern movies.
it's almost as bad as academia.
men and women are not equal and the same.
>>44135958
All that is mentioned is orbital bombardment. It is never ascribed to the kind of firepower that EU wank gave it, especially since the kind of firepower that even the wankiest of EU gave for a BDZ is continent-shattering, nowhere nearly equal to burning away the entire crust and mantle of a planet within the space of hours.
Furthermore, if one ISD was capable of that kind of firepower, the Death Star would not be necessary as a terror weapon, and Han would never have claimed that not even 1000 ships would have been able to destroy Alderaan.
>>44136030
That's why the laser side rasters their laser over the full probability sheaf of the missile's potential space; which, with realistic accelerations and at such long ranges, is trivial.
>>44136069
She looks like the star wars version of an African Warlord with gold plated gear for nonsensical reasons that basically amount to "because I can"
Halo here
big ships are nothing but a level to beat.
>>44136142
This is horrible bait. Not because of the content, but because of how shitty your grammar is.
>>44136096
There's still the issue of delivering the beam's energy to the weapon casing. just spinning the missile would negate a large amount of laser energy. coating the missile in the same material as you would use for the laser turret mirrors would almost totally negate lasers as a mitigating force.
or you could have the missiles be casaba howitzers that funnel the nuclear explosion into an x-ray laser. then the effective destructive range of the missiles is as great as the defensive lasers.
>>44134027
>>44136192
This.
>>44136179
except that the lasers are only effective from about a lightsecond out from the defending ship, so you've only got a few chances to down the thing before you're toast, depending on how fast the missile is. and again, there's all sorts of things the missile can do or be designed with to mitigate huge amounts of the laser energy, meaning shots will get through. Hell, the fucking things could just poof clouds of chaff in front of them and soak up the energy from the lasers.
>>44136142
>men and women are not equal and the same.
Nobody is equal. In fact, individual differences are far greater than any factor based on gender or ethnicity. That's why, even though women are on average worse at math than men, we still have women who are really good at math, like Grace Hopper. That's the basis behind egalitarianism; just because the odds are against you, doesn't mean you shouldn't get a chance.
>>44136192
You have shit taste.
>>44136187
African lord of war
>>44136205
Spinning is bad for having stable flight.
But using nukes to throw lasers is how the Honor Harrington books do it, but they also have magical gravity drives that make their missiles stupidly fast, so why they don't just use them as kinetic kill vehicles, I don't know. They already are fast enough to evade and overwhelm massed laser point defences, and at the speeds they travel, their KE is higher than the energy of the lasers they throw.
>>44136315
Why not?
>>44136205
>Casaba-Howitzers
What is the effective range on those suckers, anyways?
Would it be possible to build one with a Davy Crockett sized warhead?
>>44136315
>>44136200
lol
i bet you both are fat and have pink hair, amiright?
>>44134975
OK, as a Culture fan I'll take that criticism, but with two caveats.
1. I am not a fucking Doctor Who fan
2. Magic? As in the card game? Wha?
>>44136425
Yep.
>>44136303
Exactly how fast are you imagining this missile is jinking?!
A few chances? At a closing speed of 60 km/s, a missile launched a light second out will take an hours and a half hour to hit, and that's completely ignoring it's acceleration to that speed.
>>44136348
You just tacked "African" on to the movie title.
>>44134454
But the rebel fleet has both corvettes and dreadnoughts.
>>44136315
It doesn't mean you should have the scales tipped in your favor anyways, cunt.
>>44136205
I'm just wondering why an advanced military would prefer to use missiles for their ships.
This is an environment where every single gram matters in regards to the ship actually functioning.
Why would you want to have the mass of missiles that are ejected with a reaction mass dedicated directly to powering their flight?
Why not have lasers, which do not require as much mass, that can be used indefinitely?
>>44136350
>Spinning is bad for having stable flight.
Think that one through again.
I keep meaning to read honor harrington. that's the one where they fight like ships of the line?
>>44136601
i just don't have faith that lasers can get up to the energy levels where they can manage to kill ships, especially in arms race conditions where reflective armors are developed. nukes can do it right now. there are no material defenses that can fully stop a nuke if it goes off close enough.
it's the sure thing. plus you can use them against planets. that's military efficiency.
>>44136731
Reflective armor...isn't a thing. Highly refractive stuff is what you want - carbon is almost ideal.
>>44136731
If we're talking about late space colonizing time periods, especially a time when armours have advanced enough to be so light to be both effective at preventing laser penetration as well as dissipating the heat the laser impact produces...
Well, then I wouldn't even think ships would combat each other. We would fight simply around gravity wells, likely with planet-based or station based weapon systems--likely kinetic.
But, in defence of lasers, you do not need to penetrate the ship's hull to kill the crew. You only need to overload their heat dissipation systems to cook the crew alive.
There is a great website I read from once that discussed a lot of this kind of realistic space warfare theory.
>>44136731
How about kinetics? They're effective, difficult to detect, and while they can't change vectors like a missile can, a ship is going to need to spend significant reaction mass changing velocities constantly during the hours it will take for their missiles to arrive.
>>44136438
He means magic as in science fantasy, i.e. wizards in space.
>>44136871
>>44136731
Project Rho, is what the website is called.
>>44136864
there are materials that can scatter part of the laser energy. there's also ablative stuff, that'd render lasers worthless as all the energy of the shot will just vaporize the first millimeter or so.
>You only need to overload their heat dissipation systems to cook the crew alive.
See it's that argument that makes me think ships wouldn't risk engagements at such "knife-fight" distances.
>>44136882
>How about kinetics?
their lack of onboard guidance and vector change would result in a lot of ammunition hitting nothing unless you were really close. i could see it being used with missiles in setting with really good ECM.
>>44136914
oh yeah. i get a shitload of stuff from there.
>>44136661
Spinning is good for ballistic flight when you're unpowered. If you're trying to actively maneuver under power, spinning is death sentence.
And yeah, it is. It is okay, but the protagonist is a Mary Sue.
>>44137130
starting and stopping a spin isn't too difficult with flywheels, as long as the spin is on it's long axis.
If the thing really wanted to dodge, it could put itself into a calculated tumble and burn in a highly erratic pattern while still maintaining an average vector on target.
>>44137078
>ablation
That's what pulse trains fix. Timed competently, they take advantage of the ablation to create mechanical shockwaves that rip apart the target, which boosts their effective damage nearly a magnitude over continuous heat-ray style lasers.
>>44137183
RCS flywheels are cool stuff and I never realized they exist 'till your post.
>>44136350
>so why they don't just use them as kinetic kill vehicles, I don't know
They have shields that use gravity manipulation to deflect incoming hits - for an impact projectile (which would have to hit a moving ship anyway) they'd have almost no chance to hit after passing through the shield, but as you (or someone) mentioned an explosion or laser doesn't have to even hit directly and will be deflected much less, due to being photons.
Missiles being useful at all in capital ship fights is only something that happens as the series progresses - at the start they're ineffective until the missiles get improved, meaning that early capital ship battles are laser vs laser
>>44137183
Well that's cool. I didn't even know about those.
>>44135328
The Zumwalt is symptomatic of the extremely slow and arcane military procurement process.
The money came through in the budget to build the ship, but the weapons it was designed to mount just aren't ready yet. The ship was basically only half finished when launched, and will be continually upgraded over the next decade as the railguns and lasers it's supposed to mount get approved for field use.
>>44134835
>>44134696
OK.
I'm watching this now.
Since it is a remake of a remake of a remake.
What should I watch to get the most kicks? Best graphics/best plot?
Is 2014 movie good?
>>44135448
Oh, that's a matter of pressure. It happens on earth too, at the bottom of glaciers. And at the bottom of continental plates for that matter, before you're deep enough that it's truly melted due to heat. Doesn't make sense that you could keep a base down there, with a turret that moves, but I guess the anime people don't know that much geology.
![dd420-buck[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/IEm6n7m.jpg "dd420-buck[1].jpg")
>>44134403
This right here is a naval destoyer.
It destroys belly buttons.
>>44138960
In which order should I watch it?
>>44134556
They should make cross-section books like those for things like Mass Effect or Halo or 40K
>>44134027
Penis size.
>>44134223
There's so much wrong with that statement I could write a book, so this has to be bait.
>>44134027
Back in the days of sail and rigging, the mightiest ships on the sea were the ones that could carry the most cannon and cargo, like ships of the line and merchantmen.
>>44134930
Hey, Use of Weapons was fine stuff.
That said, Ian M. Banks' type of liberal will never appear again in our lifetime.
>>44134223
>>44134348
(Insert acid made of stupid quote here)
>>44134399
>>44140537
I can't read any of those labels.
The Culture is more like post-scarcity anarchist fantasy than any Western liberal fantasy of the modern era. Those are more about "muh Earth" and "muh wealth redistribution." Because it's set so far beyond those concerns, and even mocks them to an extent, it's viewed much more as a neo-fascist science fiction series than liberal. It's basically Ayn Rand without the anger and hatred of communism that drove her writing.
>>44134315
Thanks for replying with the pic. Just what I thought; the really big super star destroyer that dwarfs both Deathstars is the largest.
OP is a fucking moron.
>larger ship, larger power generator
>larger power generator, larger/stronger/more weapons/shields/engines
>larger ship, more armor to cover larger weapons/engines/other vulnerabilities
>>44134027
an overbloated and nepotistic starship-industry complex
>>44134399
>Dose Shivan ships
>>44134223
6/10
decent shitpost there. The Katana one was still a more entertaining one.
>>44135948
Amortization is the reason the per unit cost would balloon as the number ordered drops, even if the total project budget were constant. The problem is that the total project budget is constantly increasing at the same time as the number ordered is dropping.
The fixed cost of research is consuming the production budget. Effectively the US is cutting the number of ships and planes it orders in order to continue funding the research projects.
In the case of the Zumwalt, the planned total production has been cut from 32 to 3. Effectively the entire program has boiled down to building 3 ships as technology demonstrators, in the hope of being able to use the tech in the future. Which is a piss poor use of 22.5 billion dollars IMHO.
>>44134223
You are a special asset to this board anon. Carry on. You magnificent bastard.
>>44134223
Rome is far away. Rome has obstacles between it and China. Rome has a pretty good army. China has the overhanging threat of nomadic barbarian raids. China would rather attempt to take it's neighbors (which didn't work too well).
>>44135586
He was about to smash "Can't cannonball this" wellington.
But then hemorrhoids, Ney went full retard and Prussians. Mostly Prussians.
>>44141045
The two nations only had a vague idea of the existence of the other. They were only indirectly linked via the silk road.
>>44140644
The Culture series is basically Banks exploring the question "What kind of society can exist when wealth, gender, race, ability, and power are all irrelevant because technology makes them all either moot or changeable?". Banks answers the question with a hedonistic utopia. Then, being a damned sight smarter than Rand, Banks makes the main charachters of the first 3 books all people who have some profound issues with the Culture in order to start poking away at it. (Horza hates it, Gurgeh is a misfit, referred to sometimes as a throwback, Zakalwe is a mercenary who even the Culture can't predict or reliably control.)
>>44134482
Bigger submarines are more capable than smaller ones. Likewise for TBDs.
>>44134315
The Sidonia is still bigger.
Probably way more powerful too since it has anti-planetary weapons so it doesn't have to maneuver around them.
>>44140769
The Colossus was a bit bigger than the Sathanas. But still, holy shit.
>>44134399
>>44138960
It's a remake of the original series. Cleans up some story lines, has more modern sensibilities, and graphics to die for.
>>44141427
Please tell me you're kidding.
On the other hand, holy shit 40k get it together.
>>44134914
Nah, the Romans had the best strategy for beating the Royal Navy. Conquer Britain before they build a navy.
>>44141498
It is a joke, but a better comparison
>>44141541
>>SDSD
I always read that as "super duper star destroyer"
>>44140537
That's missing the Dyson Sphere from the TNG episode where they find scotty.
>>44140769
Still remember the fucking Sathanas coming out of that fucking Nebula for the first time. Fuck that ship
>>44139404
I thought you were making a kancolle joke for a moment there.
>>44141541
This cracks me up so much.
>>44140537
>>44134399
What's Earth's (Average) Diameter?
>>44139100
>Doesn't make sense that you could keep a base down there, with a turret that moves, but I guess the anime people don't know that much geology.
Also possible: the anime people didn't care.
>>44134223
I have no mouth and I must scream
>>44141541
It's a vast exaggeration though. The thing is only 300km long, the width of a typical country or state. While it's true that many sections would need redundant facilities (it's not possible to put all the crew quarters in one place) the ship would most definitely not be crippled by internal transportation logistics as long as it's planned for with a modicum of sensibility.
>>44142056
The fact that the bridge window is three kilometers high indicates that sensibility was completely absent from the construction and planning.
>>44140596
most likely the image was downscaled to fit the filesize limitations of /tg/.
>>44141128
Indeed the two empires had on one point sought each other out like long lost lovers. Both Rome and china built far flung outpost's that basically says, "hey fellow empire! i'm here!".
>>44134228
>Of course, then you run into something like a Xelee Night Fighter and it all goes out the window because it's so fucking advanced it doesn't fucking give a damn.
Good taste anon.
>>44138752
Get to actually show they fucking work, more like it. The railgun is still in the "rails get fucked up too fast, senpai" stage, while the laser is still working through the "shit, their paint is now design to make a lot of dust once it gets hit!" stage. Neither of the allege superweapons are anywhere near being viable.
>>44142056
It's also considerably smaller than the Death Star. Sta Wars is so absurd that it's hard to make fun of
I actually really like the idea of smaller yet vastly more technologically superior ships wrecking others in combat.
Eve online had some fun stuff like that with strategic cruisers, which could reach battleship levels of tank or damage (battleship being the last step before capital ships.
Also
https://youtu.be/PKdTJjDnYzE?t=89
where in the Amarr empress and her fleet of battleships takes on a capital ship group with a super weapon.
>>44144784
and the embed messed up the time url. its at around 1:24.
>>44134223
kek
what the hell guys, aren't you supposed to be smart or something?
>>44141045
>>44135082
>>44135056
>>44134310
>>44134283
>>44144720
Death Star was 90% powerplant though. The crewed areas were on the surface decks. Takes a lot of power to blow up a planet as opposed to simply vaporizing the surface.
>>44134223
>>44136601
Same thing that explains anything in every military - tradition, nepotism, ignorance, and old.men
>>44134315
Which is funny, because several of the most powerful ships in fiction are tiny things.
>>44136601
Because, for all the hype, lasers are shit easy to countermeasure and evade.
>>44135328
A carrier or battlecruiser-sized Zumwalt would be kick-ass, but too expensive to build.
>>44135270
Sir, We've detected enging activity +3 hours out. At our current acceleration and course we stand a 75% chance of running into Laser fire.
>Deploy CCD Cloud probes at +2 ahead of the bow.
>Alter course angle to minimum intercept.
Aye aye sir, probe away.
...
All hands CCD telemetery incoming. 416 nm detected.
concordiart pulse patterns determined.
>Fire the green smoke on our current course
>prepare defocusing chaff countermeasures
Smoke away sir!
>angle 3 points of galactic plane. Engage the BS inertial dampers, prepare to spin to reduce exposure and begin firing the broadside.
>Dog help us all.
There is no answer to whether lasers or missiles prevail because it depends entirely on your setting assumptions - how good missile drives are, how good lasers are (in more than one sense), what typical targets are like, etc, etc.
The good news is this means you can plausibly have either missiles, lasers or both, depending on what you like. The basic reason to use lasers is that they're reusable. The basic reason to use missiles is that they can hit the enemy from outside laser range.
>>44146153
Just realised my mistake.
416 nm is purple. Ship destroyed.
>>44142056
except it wasn't planned sensibly, it is literally just and Executor Class scaled up
>>44141755
thats a sphere 2AU in diameter, everything else fits onto a pixel at that scale
>>44134524
Cloaking Devices
hell, the (2nd, reconfigurable) Klingon Bird of Prey bridge has a very noticeable submarine aesthetic compared to the Ship of the Line feel of damn near every other main bridge
>>44134027
A larger ship typically has thicker armor, a sturdier structure, and can afford to lose more of its mass or parts (ie take damage) than smaller ships.
Larger ships can also carry more weapons systems and defensive systems.
In the case of energy weapons, larger ships can carry larger generators
>>44135035
the Defiant doesn't count, it is literally nothing more than HATE, guns, HATE, torpedoes, HATE, fuckoff huge engines, HATE, basic life support, HATE and just a bit more HATE
its not called Benjamin Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand for nothing
>>44135401
Genesis technology was Banned during the 1st Khitomer Accords, use one and you'd have at least the Federation and the Klingon Empire kicking shit out of you, probably several of the other powers too
and dicking about with Protomatter is a very dangerous proposition in and of itself
>>44136043
ok, they get points for using the Stirling with window wipers E-11 Blasters...
but why have they stuck a m-4 stock on it?
>>44136350
1) they only use bomb-pumped lasers in Missiles and Mines, shipboard Grasers and Lasers are conventionally built ones
3) Impeller Wedges are impenetrable to everything except a more powerful wedge
3) getting missiles down the gap in the enemies wedge and through its sidewalls, counter missiles and laser clusters is insanely difficult: during 2nd Yeltsin, Fearless getting a Contact Nuke through Saladin/Thunder of God's defenses was only possible because the Masadans were running the PD in pure computer mode which became predictable
>>44136601
greater range than DEWs, greater potential damage output per shot. just because the laser is more "efficient" in terms of resources doesn't make it a good weapon, you want the fastest kills that expose the most of your people to the lowest risk
>>44136661
baencd.thefifthimperium com
2/3s of it free there ^
>>44141128
during the 3 Kingdoms Era, Sun Ce or Sun Quan played host to a Roman Embassy from one the Emperors, use cant be sure which Emperor cause the Roman records of it are gone and the Chinese records mangled his name
>>44141519
ok, that does make sense
