Have you ever experienced a GM being extremely frugal when it comes to loot? Like, you get to level 5 from level 1 and all of your total found loot has been summed up to 13 gold.
>>44133988
I kind of like the idea. It seems a more, and forgive me for saying it, realistic approach to adventuring, where you get very little until you finally land the big score.
>>44134031
13 gp seems absolutely ridiculous however. What, did no one carry weapons? Or wear armor? Or have any personal belongings? Was the entire campaign spent fighting naked humans?
Even if it was fighting animals their pelts and meat would be worth more than 13gp.
This reeks of didn't happen because it's highly unrealistic to even have this be possible.
>>44134031
Not really, especially when you consider a couple crappy human-sized armors and a few non-shit weapons combined will sell for about 20 gold.
How would you even feed yourselves with that little money?
>>44134130
I was referring to actual coins the entire group collectively discovered up to that level. We scrapped by with selling some "inherited" armor and items we found that we couldn't use. We're around 1/20th the WBL at level 5 per person at this point.
>>44134499
That's idiotic. I could make more money than that in game by applying my trade for a week. That little money being in circulation is in no way realistic. Holy shit.
>>44134499
To be fair, as a DM I hate myself for putting gold coins in dungeons- it makes no fucking sense at all, what shop will serve a goblin? It's total rubbish.
Why don't you become bounty hunters? I.e. kill this wyrm- 500gp, your realism driven DM can't pretend that's not a possibility.
>>44133988
I got to level 5, and the single thing I was able to purchase was a Breastplate.
>>44134579
> what shop will serve a goblin?
Likely shops run by goblins. If we're going to be realistic then the entire D&D currency systems is retarded. The goblins probably have an alternative currency, possible minted precious metal, possibly otherwise. Gold/Silver hold their value by relative weights. If they are already in abundance in the system (what is required to keep an economy in a D&D like game going) then others will gravitate towards it. We only have fiat currencies now due to globalization.
>>44134499
I really hope your character's have some personal stake in this.
Otherwise they should be going "yeah, stuff your lost holy orb of stars, I could go to any lord's castle and become a guard captain and get more money for less effort. In the warm, too."
>>44134031
The problem is that it makes martials even MORE fucked over than they already are.
The Wizard doesn't NEED loot, but the Fighter? He is literally USELESS if he's not able to keep up with the pace on that gear treadmill the game is balanced around.
Too little money is just as bad as too much in pretty much any of the D&D family.
We have tried the frugal approach, and in anything descended from D&D3 it throws the Encounter balance completely after about 3rd level. Casters are expected to have increased their daily capacity through scrolls and/or pots, and the martials should be improving their armor, weapons, and other tools in ways not directly dictated by found items. Without that the encounters get ugly quickly.
>>44134634
>D+D
Gross
Plus goblins are raiders, there is no reason to have an economy more complex than simple bartering. They're not trading overseas, just trading this horse leg for that pointy stick etc.
>tfw GM tried to pull this bullshit
>optimized for craft as an alchemist
>applied trade and made more money than the party was getting
>quit the adventure and game because my character had no reason to adventure when sitting in a shop made him more money.
>>44134637
Yeah. Kidnapped family members and promises of great riches that have been so far empty.
>>44134697
No society has ever existed where this is true, you're working off a shallow understanding of socioeconomics, one that feeds off of hollywood more than reality.
I think it comes from the general idea that a GM doesn't want players to have any control they can't oversee. It's the type of GM that doesn't let you loot anything as things like armor mysteriously be broken and won't fit you even if you drag it to town to be refitted. They have your character sheet and even then they think some of the core abilities are bullshit and upset their game.
It may not be all that bad it could just be that they have an idea for the game and they want to execute it without being caught off guard, if you guys like it then you're great. Now if it's a GM that just wants to make your lives miserable by only having the bare minimum if even that for what they're setting up to be "challenging" it's going to lead to no fun had by the players unless they like lotto wining fights or hopeless meatgrinders.
>>44133988
Yes. Finally i got shit from my players when after eight or more sessions they finally bought a good sword for the fighting guy and lost it in a bar brawl.
But then i mostly play semi-realistic shit and its not my fault they are fucking semi-retarded.
>>44134725
Are you joking? You think societies just popped into existence with currency systems? Are you fucking stupid or what
>>44134768
How is eight sessions to buy a sword realistic?
>>44133988
I've actually had GM's just throwing gold at me. I think it's meant to encourage me to visit shops and buy better items, but I can never decide what to buy. I'd rather get some good loot, feel like I'm struggling to achieve something - getting a +1 sword from the blacksmith feels cheap in comparison.
Then again, I wouldn't mind a huge focus on buying things if there was haggling. Haggling for shit sounds like the most fun thing, especially since there are so many ways you can do it.
>>44134640
your fault for picking the wrong class
>>44134697
Well, you kind of bring up why there would be gold. They are raiders, stealing everything they can carry. They could just chuck the glittery crap in a chest to dump elsewhere after going through all the cloth and foodstuffs.
>>44134768
>Takes 8 sessions to get a sword
>You immediately take it away first chance
Wow you're such a shitty GM.
>>44134769
No, but you seem to be. You believe that in the presence of societies with currency systems, and raiding societies with currency systems, that the culture would not adopt similar systems. There has never been a large culture that hasn't done this, ever.
The mongols, early irish, scandinavian, fucking christ. Come on man, apply yourself.
>>44134808
>"Git Güd" the post
>>44134841
The Incas never had a monetary system, check and mate- suck my dick, well done for being a mong etc.
>>44134816
And I agree- but why would they carry it with them? If the goblins don't clock the value people assign to gold then it's worthless beyond looking shiny and if they don't value shiny then why weigh themselves down with it- it'd be like a human being stuffing his pockets with rocks.
>>44134895
>The Incas never had a monetary system, check and mate- suck my dick, well done for being a mong etc.
And did the fucking Incas exist near a society as advanced as goblin do? No they fucking didn't. Come on bruh. Apply yourself.
>>44134895
>The Incas never had a monetary system
Because they never interacted with anybody who had one.
I know reading comprehension is hard, but fucking apply yourself.
>>44134895
>The Incas never had a monetary system, check and mate- suck my dick, well done for being a mong etc.
Thanks for proving my point, read my post again.
>>44134698
Apparently your character had no actual goals in life then, besides making money?
>>44134928
>"there has never been a large culture that hasn't done this, ever."
There is no reason to have an economy more complex than simple bartering.
>"No society has ever existed where this is true"
BTFO, nice try moving the goalposts though
>>44134926
;)
>>44134808
There is no "wrong" class. Play what you want to play.
>>44133988
Depends on the game. One old GM I had preferred that our characters received permanent character upgrades in place of loot.
He liked it because it let him keep very careful track of what we were capable of doing (and designing adventures accordingly) since it was a post-apoc campaign, and we liked it because there was less risk of our stuff being broken/taken away by thugs/malfunctioning/etc..
>>44134973
Read this
>>44134841
>You believe that in the presence of societies with currency systems, and raiding societies with currency systems, that the culture would not adopt similar systems.
The INCAS did not interact with a society with a complex currency system. Goblins DO.
Holy shit, can you not read.
>>44134785
They started dirt poor.
Basically line infantry guy, farmer and a monk.
Do you think any of them would throw around coin to buy a fuckig sing of royalty?
>>44134839
You throw 'shitty GM' meme at everyone with different opinion and playstyle? They started the fight in a very shitty shady location, for shitty reason and ended beated unconscious because of rolls. Do you really think i should left them with that sword? That people form poor village would't strip them of all valuables?
>>44134973
>cherry picking single lines while ignoring the actually important ones
Have you ever considered a career in politics?
>>44134841
>You believe that in the presence of societies with currency systems, and raiding societies with currency systems, that the culture would not adopt similar systems.
The Goblins are regularly raiding societies that have currency systems. At some point they're going to figure out "Hey, this 'currency' thing is pretty convenient! Now I don't have to try and make change for a cow!"
>>44134997
>D&D
>There's no wrong class
Kek
>>44135007
"The INCAS did not interact with a society with a complex currency system."
What, you think the Incas existed alone in pre-columbian america?
>>44135077
Okay, what society did they interact with that had one, then?
>>44135077
They were too busy dying out, and they did transition to the new currency after extended contact. Learn what you're trying to say before you use it as a counterargument.
>>44134068
>>44134082
None of my campaigns really had this culture of "desecrate the fallen because they got in my way", not sure why but my players are always content with asking me to loot for them and telling them that they find 17 copper and a silver. I mention to them when a weapon might be better than what they are carrying but they won't like eat a kobolds dinner lain about some tables if they come across it, hell they have never even hunted for animals unless they had a hunter (usually a ranger) in the party. How common is this?
>>44135194
Looting is generally considered a thing people do in D&D, mostly because if you're a mercenary likely you'd do it. As for hunting, if I have rations enough for my journey I see no reason to. Rations are cheap.
>>44135031
Okay. So now your PCs are penniless, item-less, probably low-level, and stuck in a Dirt poor village with only whatever spells the wizard memorized that day to help defend themselves. How do you plan to let them escape this one?
>>44135146
Other Andean civilisations traded beads, made from shells, bones and gold - that they used to standardise their economies.
Some based their economies on copper axe-heads, so I could buy that land for X axe-heads.
The Incas had a subclass of tradespeople who would try to approximate these cultures into their economy, which was based around labour and bartering and had no monetary system, especially not a state endorsed system.
Your status is still BTFO btw.
>>44135250
I mean they loot containers and chests but they hardly ever strip a man down
>>44135070
>Not playing the class you like because it won't let you Win the game
Wow you're a faggot.
>>44135163
Completely irrelevant, the Incas lasted for hundreds of years trading with civilisations that had a standardised currency in place- whilst lacking a monetary system of their own, so gg.
>>44135274
Yeah, they never interacted with a society with a centrally minted currency. I don't see you're point.
>>44135301
>playing a class that is completely out of context for the party/setting
I see what you are saying, not even op, but there are reasons why you shouldnt play certain classes and I think you know them.
>>44135333
Like the fact that some of them are so overpowered they could literally rule the fucking planet before level 10?
>>44135332
My you are point is- you said "You believe that in the presence of societies with currency systems, and raiding societies with currency systems, that the culture would not adopt similar systems. There has never been a large culture that hasn't done this, ever."
wtf has a centrally minted currency got to do with it, minted means coins- there have existed hundreds of economies with a standardised currency that did not use coins- again- you're moving the goalpost.
>>44135378
Ok, not that guy, but I gotta ask. What are you two even fucking arguing about at this point. I can see both your points. Goblins could or could not have them, both seem realistic. Adopting seems more realistic unless there are others besides Incas who had a system like you said, but it could happen that they never do it.
>>44135301
>Playing the class that brings nothing to the group , is outclassed by everybody else and gets you killed in the first encounter
double kek
>>44135420
My whole point was that goblins carrying gold coins around is dumb, their whole society could comfortably exist with a bartering system in place.
Then enter this mong, who says no society has ever existed which has been in contact with a civilisation with a currency system that has not adopted a currency system.
I said the Incas are literally the society you're blocking from existence. Blah blah, Andean trade blah blah.
Then mong returns with muh minted currencies- which neither of us mentioned at the start, instead of admitting he was wrong- a common problem with underage autistic manchildren
>>44135301
See, I tried to play monk many times, srly, tons of times, and, for some reason, me liking to punch stuff didn't made the monk better, is like my tastes meant nothing on a broken system.
So like that guy said, in D&D, there're wrong classes.
>>44135503
Except it also seems reasonable for them to carry around coins and use those to barter.
Since they are made of gold.
Even if they're not the standard it would make sense to have them.
Even if they didn't goblins should have something to barter with, which IS worth money.
>>44135472
So you disregard that player entirely and ignore him because he didn't pick the optimal everything to win at the game? Wow you're still a faggot.
>>44135554
I never said goblins with coins is impossible, it just seems dumb to me- what I did get told is impossible is goblins NOT adopting gold coins as a currency.
>>44135532
That's only because you're not using the ultimate monk base class from the forever night module.
>>44135587
It seems like it's unlikely they wouldn't if they only raided societies that used coins, at least to have coins around since everyone they kill has coins.
>>44135596
No, that's because I was playing D&D, I stopped and played Anima instead, better system by far.
>>44134895
You talkin' shit about geologists, mate?
>>44133988
My best (and ongoing) campaign really got going when our GM got sick of our murderhoboing antics, and threw us into a prison pit which was basically based on Jeff Vogel's Exile series, where we had to knap flint to make crude knives and wrestle with giant spiders for food to survive.
It's actually pretty awesome, when you're ground down to almost nothing and have to eke out every little resource to its maximum utility IF, and I want to make this clear, IF your GM calibrates challenges accordingly, knowing that you're not as strong as a "standard" level X adventurer with a normal array of loot.
>>44134640
With a 13 gp budget to work with, your wizard can't scribe spells into his spellbook, making him 100% bumfuck useless.
Once. I was a wizard so it didn't screw me over but the barb actually slit his own throat then rerolled a wizard as well which made everyone else do it which made the dm quit because we weren't taking his 5 year in the making low everything high enemy setting seriously.
>>44135269
DM is a fan of Harvest Moon, I'm sure.
>>44133988
I once played a 3E campaign where we went from 3rd level to 6th over the course of about 30 sessions (and 100 combat encounters). One time we wiped out a nest of Grell (giant brains with tentacles and beaks) and our reward was a packed lunch and a firm good-bye from the major. Another time we saved a town from its evil oppressive leadership and literally nobody would give us shelter, much less pay us.
Every time we got a magic item it would either have almost no benefit or would be unusable by any member of the party. Few monsters dropped loot, and that which we found was such bad quality or so heavy that it would be pointless to bring it to town to sell it. No monsters ever dropped coins or had magic items on them, except the ones that would mysteriously vanish when we killed them. We literally ended the campaign poorer than when we'd started.
The funny part was that the game was meant to be Noblebright, a tale of heroes saving villages and thwarting evil, but the GM's rulings and paltry rewards made it feel Grimdark for all the players.
>>44135688
Gets two spells into his spellbook upon level up regardless.
>>44135575
>PCs are 10th level
>Have to keep throwing CR 4 threats to not accidentally kill the fighter
>All threats have to be dumb monster that only full attacks, the moment I use magic the fighter is dead
Yeah, it's my fault that I don't go full kid gloves on him
If he wants to play a fighter I punch him till he says he wants to play a warblade instead
>>44135607
But I don't know- when I started GMing I would have agreed with you but take the average town, with the average attached goblin settlement as parasitic raiders.
Now it seems unlikely they will ever steal gold in a large quantity to barter with right? Unless they luckily hit a bank or a trade caravan (which begs the question, wtf were the guards doing?).
So if the goblins are only getting gold in trips and drabs- what are they doing with it? There has to be a steady income and some purpose to it otherwise I will value this warm dog skin coat far more than the pile of gold coins. Additionally, if you're the average scrub goblin, you can't really go into any nearby human shops and trade- and given that your settlement is probs numbering around 100 or less goblins- there probably isn't enough resource generation within the society, and not enough to buy that doesn't just justify you going out and stealing it yourself. Add to this goblins are fucking dumb as all hell and I literally cannot understand why gold would have any use to a goblin BEYOND looking pretty (which they may not value at all either).
>>44135688
Every caster gets a number of free known spells per level, wizard gets like 2 (I think) so no, he's, together with Druid and Cleric, the best by far in the group.
>>44135031
>Do you think any of them would throw around coin to buy a fuckig sing of royalty?
A sword isn't a sign of royalty unless it is expensively made. A dirk is a dirt cheap piece of sharpened iron.
>>44135648
Nah nah, I get it- some dwarves were born in men's bodies, it's fine, keep filling your pockets.
Me, now I know I was meant to be a ghost so respect my right to spook you, trash your kitchens and watch your children sleep.
>People believing D&D martials that aren't ToB martials can deal with their own CR
Top lel
>>44135726
If you're playing D&D you're falsifying the D&D assumed economy. Gold is fucking everywhere in the assumed D&D economy.
>Add to this goblins are fucking dumb as all hell and I literally cannot understand why gold would have any use to a goblin BEYOND looking pretty (which they may not value at all either).
On average they are slightly more stupid than humans, this doesn't make them incapable of understanding commodities. Animals understand the basis of commodities.
>Additionally, if you're the average scrub goblin, you can't really go into any nearby human shops and trade- and given that your settlement is probs numbering around 100 or less goblins- there probably isn't enough resource generation within the society, and not enough to buy that doesn't just justify you going out and stealing it yourself.
You can barter between you and your other scrub tier goblins with the coins, like the humans do. You can easily justify this with monkey see monkey do if they're so stupid.
>here has to be a steady income and some purpose to it otherwise I will value this warm dog skin coat far more than the pile of gold coins.
Except they should be around somewhere, they wouldn't just leave gold. Every person they kill should have coppers/silvers on their person, occasionally ones with gold coins. This is because the average person makes the equivalent of a gold piece every three days. They're not exactly uncommon.
>>44133988
Be druid with vow of poverty feat and natural spell.
>>44135823
This is trolling, they can easily deal with their own CR. A Fighter simply kills the enemy in the first round they have an action, unless you're saying every enemy of CR immediately incapacitates every martial the first round of combat and always wins initiative.
>>44135269
>whatever spells the wizard memorized
What fucking wizzard? Did i write anything on magic? Stop throwing your shitty designs at me... its clear you either new into this or seriously lacking in reading comprehension and simple tact to understand that different people play differently.
They don't NEED to escape shit. They started it, whole fight and villagers just throw them in a ditch filled with shit. When they wake they will be without valuables, beaten, covered in shit and hangover but fucking fine. They scavenged some stuff from nearby forest if you really want to know how it went and really learned a lesson or two.
>>44135710
How'd you last 30 sessions in that game of shit after shit?
>>44135714
>I want to play a man who uses a sword to strike down the creatures of this world without relying on magic to do everything for me.
>Nope. You have to use a class that requires you rely on magic to do everything for you.
>>44135869
Fighter can't kill shit beyond 7th-10th level (depending on the level of optimization) because he loses character agency before it's his turn, just because he can deal tons of damage doesn't mean he actually is going to deal them.
>>44135839
You can barter between you and your other scrub tier goblins with the coins, like the humans do. You can easily justify this with monkey see monkey do if they're so stupid.
Ok, so you want goblins to be parroting- sure, they're dumb, it makes sense. But why wouldn't plain bartering work better- because at the end of the day, for a goblin, a coin is just a lump of metal. In isolation, in a community where near everything has roughly the same purpose (i.e. to survive and raid) why would the goblins need coins over a simple trade?
> Except they should be around somewhere, they wouldn't just leave gold.
Except if it had no value to them, the value has to be established or as I said, it'd just be shiny metal.
>>44135935
ToB is not Magic though, at worse, and only very few disciplines from swordsage, it's SUpernatural.
>>44135954
This simply isn't true? What kind of scrubs are you playing with that their fighter can't handle things.
Here I can just prove you wrong by grabbing my level 20 fighter and you giving me a challenge to kill.
>>44135935
>D&D
>Doesn't want to rely on magic
Play another game, even if you want to, stupidly, be a fighter you'll need to rely on magic items for the rest of your life as an adventurer.
>>44135869
Alright then. Describe to me how, in any edition of D&D, a single-class Fighter kills an Aboleth reliably on the first turn of combat, assuming that the Fighter's level is the same as the CR of the Aboleth. Go on, I'll wait.
>>44135955
>Except if it had no value to them, the value has to be established or as I said, it'd just be shiny metal.
What is it for a human if not a shiny metal? That's the same thing that gives it value for people in premodern society. Things being shiny and scarce make them worth a damn lot. That's how gold garnered worth in societies to begin with.
I have a hard time believe a goblin who knows that humans trade in gold would just leave coins. He would know they use it as money.
>>44135896
The other players were cool people and due to the nature of where I live it was the only game available. Roll20 and Skype games weren't a thing yet so it was IRL or bust.
>>44136017
So why doesn't logic follow suit and everyone one every D&D setting that has even moderate amounts of magic in it becomes full fledged casters and nothing but casters?
>>44136054
>muh "goblins are literally retarded" preconception
Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.
>>44135751
I wrote SWORD.
They all have some sort of weapon and they bought it from, begged almost for it from traveling merchants. They been in very poor region where most of swords are sing of royalty or ruling warrior class.
Imagine something akin to 600 ad Britain.
That was stupid decision after stupid decision on their part. So i will clarify.
>>44133988
Yes, i can be frugal... but sometimes its a good idea for your players to be just dirt poor fucks not showing coin in every possible vice and equipment after slaying 20d kobolds. It was awesome session and we laughed about that whole bar brawl because that was their first proper realization that in this campaign they will be real under-dogs and from now on they really need to think to survive and this type of play style... and i mean frugality, can be great both for the players and GM.
>>44134971
well, he was an alchemist
>>44136119
>He thinks D&D follows "logic" or "makes sense"
You're funny
D&D is like 40k it just works because devs say so
Druid is better than any martial ever, but it's ok because reasons?
>>44136054
It's a fiat currency- it represents a promise, this promise can be traded for labour, for goods, for land etc. Also it's not scarce- as already established, gold is everywhere in D+D/pathfinder (and it triggers me).
>I have a hard time believe a goblin who knows that humans trade in gold would just leave coins.
Ok, see this is where I think you're losing the point. It would not be money for them, if it isn't used as currency by goblins.
Let's say all you ever need is food (all stolen), weapons (scavenged) and shelter (given to you)- what use is gold to you? No goblin will take it, it wants your sharp knife or your half a pig. Same works the other way- you will starve without food, but gold won't help you.
Gold only becomes relevant to goblins if they are:
1) Not killed on sight by everything under the sun.
2) Aware of gold's abstract worth beyond its raw nature.
3) Able to trade for items required.
In the vanilla D+D/pathfinder adventure paths I have seen and read- 1 and 3 are not fulfilled, and 2 is debatable.
>>44136191
>Druid walks into clearing
>Surprise round, he's flat-footed and get hit twice
>Dies instantly
And
>Fighter walks into a clearing
>Get surprised and flat-footed, attacks bounce off of his AC
>Slaugtters the enemies and continues on his merry way.
The other day my GM told me that his Barb, from another game, was better than any caster I could ever come up. I asked him the books he checked and using the same sources I made a Cleric with point buy (so worse stats than him), GM tore to pieces his character sheer and didn't talk me for like 2 weeks. Literally had better to hit, damage, AC, HPs and I could also was a full caster.
PF btw.
>>44136288Good luck in my game. Casters don't get their 2 spells per level and have to find their spells.
>>44136026
Eldritch guardian improved familiar burns dimension door scroll and ends it's own turn and allows fighter to use it's turn to full attack the Aboleth.
He is going to go first due to an initiative familiar and +8 dexterity modifier, giving him a +12 over the aboleth's +5.
At level 7 makes 5 attacks at the following bonuses due to high dex + mutagen from mutation warrior and their dex belt using two +1 agile kukri.
+16/+16/+16/+11/+11
Each of the first three attacks have a %85 chance of hitting, and the next two a 60% chance. In addition each attack had a 25% chance of critting. This on average will kill the Aboleth.
Merry christmas.
>>44136262
>Dies instantly
1. Druid can be in wild shape for hours.
2. 8 HD, fighter has 10, the difference is your level in points so not important
3. They have literally the same AC if you fucking know how to play D&D
Also
>AC
>Mattering at all
This just proves you never played D&D
In this order and from low levels to high levels
HPs > Saves
AC is never going to matter shit
>>44136388
>AC not mattering
How do you like 5e, anon?
>>44136388
Then how come my AC 53 Fighter has not gotten hit the entire last two fights?
>>44136349
In my games I insist they use ToB or Tome of War (PF), this way everybody has fun without me having to nerf people.
Yours brings everybody to a similar level too, but created more butthurt than joy imo.
>>44134546
That's what you get for having so little ranks in Profession (adventurer).
>>44136388
AC only doesn't matter if you don't actually pump it. You can easily make AC matter. Hell I put my touch AC out of most enemies range when I made a level 20 fighter. (He was actually Fighter 19/Barbarian 1 I believe but what ever)
>>44136440
Because your GM is very pleased with your awesome blowjob skills thats why you don't roll for saves on a level that you should be rolling for saves every turn
>>44136447
Still, that leaves them eighteen pegs below casters at best.
>>44136001
The problem with the fighter is that it has only one way to deal with combat: Damage. Most enemies above CR 6 have more hit dice, and thus more hit points, than their CR would suggest; the aboleth mentioned in >>44136026 has 8 HD and is CR 7 as a minor example.
Adding to the hit dice disparity, monsters typically fall into one of two categories: Tank and Pseudo-Caster.
Tanks tend to have even higher hp than normal, in addition to a very good armor class. That armor class completely removes the fighter's ability to hit them reliably on more than their first hit or two on a full attack, which prevents them from dealing the damage they need to to kill it.
Pseudo-Casters, on the other hand, have average hit points, for a monster, and comparable AC to non-frontline PCs, like the rogue. See the aboleth(CR 7; 76 hp, AC 16) again. On top of that, they have combat-based spell-like or similar abilities, and a lot of the worse offenders have mind-affecting or other Will-save-centric abilities that absolutely ruin any character that can't resist them. The aboleth, again, has at will versions of hypnotic pattern, illusory wall, mirage arcana, persistent image, programmed image, project image, and veil, and a 3/day version of dominate person, all at 16th effective caster level. This is a CR 7 monster, and it is not a special case as far as monsters of this type go.
A fighter is... just plain bad, unless you build it in as optimized a way as physically possible.
>>44136500
So you're saying enemies at high levels should never try and hit you and only go after saves. It sounds like you're coddling your casters.
>tfw GMing and have a earth gliding ranger hiding in a bolder with brilliant energy arrows for level 20 game
>tfw shoot the casters first because I know there is no way for them to survive
>laugh
>>44133988
The only place I can see that working is if the RPG is an extremely realistic non-fantasy game where the players are just peasants trying to defend their homes against bandits and wild animals. In that case copper and silver coins are going to be the mainstay of the campaign and gold will be rather rare. Getting a sword would be an expensive item and even light chainmail would be considered "decent" armor. Players would have to make due with spears, hunting bows, knives, hatchets, or maybe a board-shield and a billhook if they are lucky. Something gritty and desperate like this might be fun (I'm thinking of the game Battle Brothers or something like that at low levels).
If this is anything fantasy and the players have anything tough to fight, go into tombs, or take quests/bounty missions then 13G is ridiculous.
>>44136500
>Getting yourself into situations where you'll have to roll against Save-or-Die effects every single turn
Good thing I'm not retarded and keep myself out of those bad positions.
>>44136547
They should try to hit you, but they also have shit that doesn't even spend a turn that forces you to save for Save or Suck or Save or Die abilities.
>>44136529
Except damage is a good way to make enemies dead. It loses out on utility OOC, but IC I as a fighter have enough money to toolbox my way to simply end an enemy. It's easy (especially in PF) to put your damage in the realm of 1400 per round and make you able to simply teleport to an enemy before full attacking. If they try and emergency force shield you break it first THEN kill them the same round.
>>44136558
This.
Every martial should do this, I mean, every martial should retire and be a farmer, this way you avoid adventures and therefore be in a situation you have to roll for Save or Die effects.
>>44136581
What enemies have save or die auras? For the stuff that "doesn't even spend a turn" what enemies have swift/free save or dies?
>>44136581
How is this any less dangerous for casters? They're not immune to save or dies/save or sucks. Hell it's a martial that has the best saves in the game.
>>44136632
Not him, but I remember frightful presence from dragons being a nasty shit till I got an item that made me immune to fear, but again, it sucks when you have to rely so much on magic items while casters actually don't need them.
Even more if you're a monk which goes against the character concept.
>>44133988
Just start robbing niggas. Or derail the campaign for harebrained "get rich quick" schemes until the DM stops being a faggot.
There's so many ways for creative players to either make money or let their DM know to stop being a dicksucker and give them money.
Apply thyself.
>>44136606
Explain to me how to do that level of damage, because it seems like cheese. Not a good kind of cheese, either; it seems like dick cheese, if I'm honest.
What I don't really get is the whole "Martials literally can not play the game" attitude.
Are they generally less capable of dealing with varied situations than casters?
Yes, no one denies that.
Are they incapable of dealing with threats?
No, that's also silly.
>>44136652
>How is this any less dangerous for casters? They're not immune to save or dies/save or sucks
Swift/free action spells
>>44136711
I do not see your point here. How does them having swift action spells make them immune to save or suck. Give an example.
>>44136693
It is cheese, very cheese, not gonna deny that. It relies on PF's theoretical Dex limit and some other stuff.
>>44136683
Frightful presence shouldn't be a problem if you have Big6 items, same for casters.
>>44133988
most of my gaming group are "frugal" DMs.
Not because "omg magic items OP" but we normally play grittier games, and unless you REALLY enjoy bags of poo, those goblins you just slaughtered have nothing you want.
It also doesn't help that our adventuring parties usually resemble characters from "Slayers" more than they should, and as such, most places we visit sooner or later end up in flamesbut free of all evil
>>44136558
And a caster can also do that while killing shit from distance and have 1001 ways of dealing with any kind of threat in and out of combat.
>>44133988
I did. At level 8 in 3.5 all we had were a couple hundred gold, a masterwork mace, a +1 bow for the fighter, and a stone that gave fire resist 3 to the wearer.
We complained with the DM. He sent us through a meatgrinder dungeon to get loot, where we found quite a bit of gold but 2 out of 4 characters died. Then he took away that gold from us with a bullshit excuse. The campaign ended soon after.
>>44136773
Because they have swift/free action spells that make them immune to most save or suck situations.
>>44136386
First, Pathfinder is not technically an edition of Dungeons and Dragons. Different name, different publisher. Second, you're assuming that your character has access to a number of specific magical items.
>>44136785
How does your wizard actually kill things at high level. Please tell me. Against something immune to daze for instance.
>>44136821
Like what? You're not actually giving examples. And what save or suck situations are you even referencing? You're making up situations and making up ways to get out of them. Give me something concrete.
The one concrete thing in this thread was the aboleth, which I gave of an example of a fighter turn 1 killing it and everyone subsequently ignored.
>>44136685
>>44136685
T H I S
H
I
S
>>44136829
This assumes exactly 4 magical items.
A dimension door scroll, agile kukri, and haste boots.
Hell, there is enough room in the build I just stated for the fighter to make those items FOR HIMSELF (except the scroll).
You asked to give you a way and I gave you a way. I don't know 3.5 well enough to do it in that.
3.5, from 1st to 7th level, we had like 200 gold pieces between actual money and equipment, zero magic items.
We lost like 3 or 4 PCs because the GM kept throwing CRs of our level, but without the equipment we couldn't deal with shit. Last session was TPK because GM threw a CR 7 earth elemental against us.
>hurr durr the druid is better than my monk
Seems to me you don't know how to play a monk then, pal.
>>44136773
>It relies on PF's theoretical Dex limit
Smells like an exploit that takes advantage of a hole in the rules that they haven't, and probably won't, patch.
>and some other stuff
>very nebulous
Yeah, I'm convinced that that's exactly what this is. I see this as a DM, I'm going to look at you with a scowl that could curdle milk and demand you explain exactly what rules you, "bent," to make this happen, and make a note to fix them.
Purposefully breaking the game, and that's what it is, by using poorly written rules against it may commonly be considered to be system mastery, and a lot of people get a kick out of that. I'm not one of them. That's considered to be just straight-up cheating at my table, and I'd be heavily tempted to run your character sheet through a shredder, sans bin, onto the table in front of you for it.
>>44136954
Monks are mechanically garbage in literally every D&D/PF mechanically based setting.
Don't even feign retardation and pretend like they're remotely close to the same tier.
>>44135194
A common phrase among some players in my group:
>I PULP AND RAKE THE BODIES, WHAT IS THE YIELD?
>>44136894
>Agile kukri
Never seen one in any game I've ever played in.
>>44136992
So do you ban casters? Because with all my "cheating" they're still better than my fighter.
And the dex limit isn't that bad, it's 56 I believe for a PC without use of AP specific content.
>>44136386
That thing could never be replicated with a D&D fighter, PF at least has archetypes (and literally any archetype is better than default Fighter), and mutantion warrior is probably one of the best fighter archetypes ever.
Though I'm pretty sure a skinwalker alchemist is going to be better (gore, claw, claw, hoves, hoves, bite)
>>44137025
Agile is a weapon enchantment.
Kukri is just an efficient weapon, there are 3-4 other weapons that would work just as well.
If you've never seen agile does your GM just hate anyone who tries to use dex in melee?
>>44137030
Sadly casters have very defined and intended rules...because devs are assholes.
Srly, fucking warpriest sacred fist is better than any monk ever.
>>44137030
Psionics and Tome of Battle classes, with other non-caster classes open to debate/discussion by request.
>>44137067
Nah. He just hates crafting wizards and magic shops. All the shit we find is randomly rolled (with modifiers based on how close we came to being killed).
>>44137030
There's a difference from "Damn, casters are good as written" and "My fighter is as good as a caster because I swung my dick in a circle and have 56 Dex somehow and I'm bending the wording of any and all possible rules to do shit that is clearly not intended by the game".
Yes, caster superiority is annoying. There's no martial classes above a T3, and even those that are, are so because they have access to magic.
But I'm not going to balance that out by letting fighters blatantly break game mechanics to do so.
>>44137117
How do items start if no one crafts?
>>44133988
i experienced something similar in my teenager years.
in warhammer fantasy my character was a student that wanted to advance to the wizard apprentice career.
We eplayed a sandbox style game in and i needed a tutor to do that
The thing is that despite having a vast amount of money and unspent xp (i was reserving it for being a mage) i couldnt find anyone that could teach me due to the dm dickness.
So after weeks of playing i finally found one that accepted me as aprendice but the DM still didnt let me advance cos by the dm words "all i have been doing during weeks was cleaning the floor".
So one time when my tutor was away from his tower i investigated around and found a secret entrance that leaded to a inner sactum dedicated to tzeench, sudendly (oh surprise) the fucking tutor apears and reveals how evil and powetfull he is and makes the famous monolge "join me or die".
I really wanted to be a fucking tzeench chaos mage (i had a bonner with tzeench at that time) but my character was Legal aligment so i load my crossbow and shoot, i think i didnt washed my balls that day cos i did like 30 dmg killing him in one shoot.
At the end the dm recognizes that he is being a dick and preprares a scenario in wich i can find a proper tutor and at least spend my reserve of 2600 xp.
>>44137128
Well it's better to break the mechanics than have one playsr become increasingly disinterested in the game because his character cannot contribute to the story besides being the "idiot fighter in distress" everytime something pops up.
>>44137144
He's against PLAYERS having crafting wizards, since he believes it's entirely against the whole "adventure" aspect when the party has to wait six weeks in a city for he wizard to finish making profit.
>>44136829
>First, Pathfinder is not technically an edition of Dungeons and Dragons. Different name, different publisher.
>>44137128
>"My fighter is as good as a caster because I swung my dick in a circle and have 56 Dex somehow and I'm bending the wording of any and all possible rules to do shit that is clearly not intended by the game".
No wording is actually bent. I use all the rules at intended, I just put things on that I want as a character.
This is how you get to the dex limit:
18 (base) +4 (goblin) +8 (grand mutagen) +6 (dex rage with +4 courageous weapon) +6 (belt) +5 (levels) +8 (undead anatomy IV) = 55
It's actually 55, not 56 as I had remembered.
Strength is even higher, being in the 60s. Strength actually does more straight damage. If I tried I could get it really high.
>>44137202
No, it isn't. Play a different game or educate your retarded fighter players on mechanical tiers and have the party agree to play characters within 1 tier of each other.
Breaking the game because some guy wants to play a fighter is a stupid idea. Elsewise there's no reason that the BBEG doesn't decide to create an army of 56 Dex fighters and teleport around doing 400 damage to everyone.
>>44137207
Not even the other poster, but come on.
PF and 3.5 aren't as similar as the memes would imply.
>>44137202
>He's against PLAYERS having crafting wizards, since he believes it's entirely against the whole "adventure" aspect when the party has to wait six weeks in a city for he wizard to finish making profit.
Or... you know... he could craft on the fucking road as per rules.
>>44136134
Your players are begging you for gear and you take away the fighter's sword immediately after it's purchased. I can't imagine the level of Stockholm syndrome involved in keeping them playing with your sorry ass.
If wizards can tactically nuke people at a distance and make themselves completely invincible to anything short of omnipotent beings (at epic levels) what would fighters need to have added to achieve similar degrees of awesome? I'm thinking a fighter "maneuver list" that allows them to temporarily break the bounds of the (insert race here)'s body and achieve fantastic feats. Basically spells and slots per level and casting stay and all that.
>>44137246
It's a half truth- it is an adapted version of D+D but not an edition of it.
>>44137233
How are you getting the Undead Anatomy bonus? Did you have a wizard cast it on you?
>>44137270
I mean I can make a fighter that can simply win initiative and kill the wizard, but that isn't the actual issue here.
>>44137304
Scrolls or an item that does it is the intended pathway if you don't want too much cheese. The IV scrolls are saved for emergencies, you normally use less power scrolls.
>>44137270
>Tactical nuking
This makes me think of the polymorph object anti-matter bomb scenario. Actually, does anyone know what instantly transforming a kilogram of lead into a kilogram of anti-matter lead would do?
>>44137337
Not a whole damn lot unless it came into contact with its exact mass equivalent of lead, if I remember right.
>>44137323
So your way to make a fighter balanced against wizards is to depend entirely on their grace to become bristled with magical spells, items and enchants that they could simply deny you or refuse to make/sell?
I see.
>>44137246
Are you serious? They are the same fucking game.
>>44137337
Well 1 gram of anti-matter is projected to have 43 kilotons of explosive force if it reacts with an equal amount of its counterpart. So 1kg would be 43 MegaTons of explosive force, about the output of the tsar bomb. Except you can fit this one inside a breadbox and mail it.
>>44137391
The build doesn't change hugely without it. 8 less dex doesn't make it that less powerful.
That and the character has crafting feats and should have, at this point, made a polymorphing item for myself for Undead Anatomy III or II.
>>44137393
This, almost exactly. Aside from some minor class-based tweaks, a few changes to some math, and the addition of combat maneuver defense as an actual stat, they're practically identical.
>>44137443
How are you going to make magical items without magic?
How are you getting mutagens without alchemy (ie, magic)?
Looks like it's time to play unarmed ninja then. Got my ki, got my sneak attack dice, got my fists.
Or, I could go outside and adventure, because the real world is more exciting than your lame piece of shit excuse for a game.
>>44137507
Mutation Warrior and Master Craftsman allows you to take Craft Wondrous and Craft Arms&Armor, which allow after you get a psuedo caster level to craft spell trigger items.
>>44133988
Forever GM reporting in. This is pretty much what I do. Partially to force them to stay focused on quests, but partially because my players tend to abuse anything interesting they get somehow.
>>44137427
Well a level 20 wizard can technically make 2,000 cubic feet of lead turn into anti-matter lead. The explosive force of that much anti-matter going off at one time would be equal to 2.6706x10^15 (2,670,600,000,000,000) tons of TNT exploding. The planet would explode.
>>44137548
Which is fine, but that wouldn't allow you to create the Belt of Incredible Dexterity.
>>44137612
Belt of Dex are wondrous items, what are you talking about?
>>44137633
Even with the feats, you still need to be able to cast Cat's Grace to complete the crafting.
Mutation Warrior lets you take Master Craftsman, which lets you take Craft Wonderous, but you're still missing Cat's Grace. The feats do not allow you to bypass the spell portion.
>>44136221
You really are ignoring the obvious that gold is one of the most easily malleable metals out there.
That means it's easy to turn into jewelry and king goblin has to have his bling
>>44137696
Actually, no you don't. You see, for the low low price of increasing the DC by 5 (which is fuck all) you can ignore the spell casting.
>>44137731
No, you do.
17
down vote
accepted
You wish to craft a +2 longbow. First, we must figure out the longbow's Caster Level. We find this under Magic Weapons.
For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus.
Which gives us a caster level of 3*2 = 6. You use your number of ranks in the skill you chose to link to your Master Craftsman feat as your caster level for purposes of crafting, so a 6th level Fighter can meet this requirement if he kept his ranks maxed.
Then, we find out the craft DC of the weapon. This we find under Magic Item Creation.
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.
Since our character is a Master Craftsman, this skill check is a check of that feat's connected skill. Its DC is 5 + 6 = 11. Since this bow only has an enhancement bonus, our calculations stop, and we have the final DC.
Had this been a more interesting magic item (one that requires specific spells as part of the casting process), this neat clause (again from Magic Item Creation is likely to be of assistance:
The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
Alternatively, our Master Craftsman could enlisted the help of others when crafting magic items with spell requirements, as described under "Requirements" in Magic Item Descriptions.
IE, you need someone to cast Cat's Grace still. You can make magical items, but you can't ignore REQUIREMENTS to make them, even though you can use your skill to qualify for the DC, it does not ignore the component spell.
>>44137696
That's not how that feat works you numbnuts.
>>44137759
Did you not actually read it?
>The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
Means you can ignore the spell and increase the DC by 5
>Alternatively, our Master Craftsman could enlisted the help of others when crafting magic items with spell requirements, as described under "Requirements" in Magic Item Descriptions.
Means you can negate the DC5 increase by enlisting help.
Seriously, learn to read, this shit is common knowledge. By your logic someone who isn't a caster is literally incapable of making magic items even with the feat, making the feat entirely useless.
>>44137762
Yes, it is.
All it does is allow you to replace the Caster Level requirement with your Skill Level. It does not allow you to apply your Skill Level as an actual spell.
>>44135042
>Goblins.
>Doing intelligent shit.
Pick one.
>>44133988
I usually don't even give loot for encounters. All you can get is the equipment of the foe and what few golds it could have had, that's usually not in the thousands. Now if you stumble across one of the secret chambers, treasure vaults and monsters hoard I put here and there we can instead talk about some serious loot.
It is not realism, I don't give a fuck about realism, it just makes more sense to me, I guess.
So uh, maybe your master has an hidden vault full of gold somewhere in the dungeon you are exploring?
>>44137856
The spell is a requirement, the only requirement you can't simply increase the DC for is the feat. Spells are not feats. Therefore you can increase the DC by 5.
Nothing in what you posted contradicts this.
>>44137842
>The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
Show me where it says that in the actual rules and not >>44137759 numbnut's post on Yahoo answers.
The rules per RAW
>You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
>If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast
>>44137842
No, people can make +2 Longbows and shit because those don't require the spells.
>>44137856
This is incorrect, check the fucking forums if you don't believe us.
>>44137856
This is correct, as posted in the forums.
>>44137920
A belt of dexterity isn't a spell trigger or spell activation item. It requires a spell in it's creation, that you can basically ignore.
Dear lord you may be right. I've been using Master Craftsman wrong. Why does this feat even exist? It's essentially pointless because even worse it only applies to one craft skill, limiting you even further.
>ITT : Fighter is assmad that he is not a wizard and takes a series of impractical feats to try and create magical gear that still doesn't put him on even footing with a Wizard
>said magical gear requires weeks/months of time to create and thousands of gold pieces to invest, and still requires the help of Wizards/Alchemists to make his Undead Anatomy powers
All of this useless shit, completely undone with a single Contingency prepped on a wizard for self defense, as any wizard would.
Fighters - Not even once.
>>44138003
>Not casters
>Being allowed anything nice
>>44138037
>implying there's a wizard
No casters, Anon. No casters. Because faggotry.
>>44137973
You can't ignore spells when making magical gear. The feats are literally "Make + gear without spells", not "Make anything you want as long as it doesn't have triggers/activations".
>ITT: Fighter legitimally thought he could beat an Aboleth
>>44138037
If it's 3.X, obviously you play a Warblade instead.
In 4E or 5E, Fighters are completely viable at all levels of play.
>>44138075
Yes, but the magic item crafting rules allow you to bypass most of that horse shit, if you're willing to let the DC get that high.
>>44138113
I mean that part was actually correct.
Being frugal with loot doesn't mean not giving anything to your players.
>>44138159
Nope. Aboleth mind controls the fighter because it beat the fighter's initiative toll.
All of my players are gishes anyways.
Your class is ??/Wizard, with whatever you want as the first. But you can't not take your full caster progression.
Then you have no one to blame but yourself.
For the purposes of gishing, it is NOT a gestalt; you can't stack SL with another full progression caster, for example.
>>44138300
What kinda shit-ass fighter are you building can't beat a +5 init?
>>44138300
It's has a +5, the guy who posted his example kill has a +12
>>44137267
Now its just baiting, you poor fucking lonely sod.
>>44138446
Not even that guy but you are a shitty dm
>>44138440
How can he have +12 if he can't have +6 dex from belt anymore?
>>44138446
Okay dude. Your players are covered in shit and penniless, yet they're completely fine because they're not dead? You are either a bad GM or very bad at explaining what you did. Besides, not all players will tell it to your face that they don't like your game.
>>44138501
That's not even the same character we're talking about. The +6 belt was the level 20 character.
Unless you're saying a level 20 fighter can't beat a CR7 Aboleth.
>>44138501
Very simple: +2 initiative trait bonus, +4 improved initiative, maybe some ranger/inquisitor/gunslinger/ordoyounotrealizethatclassesgiveinitiativebonuses?/etc. and you can get right the fuck back up there.
>>44138501
18 Base
+4 Goblin
+8 Grand Mutagen (still viable without alchemist or mages as a result of his feats afaik)
+6 (assuming combat statts and he's already raging with a +4 Courageous Weapon)
+5 (from leveling up)
The loss of 8 from the UA IV and the 6 from the Belt isn't too terrible.
>>44138578
>>44138501
Even if he doesn't craft it himself he should have his magic items by that point.
>>44138593
Not with the GM basically telling him he can only play with his dick and mud, until he starves to death.
>>44138593
This is the retarded "I don't need wizards" argument.
I'm not denying that what he posted is possible, just that it's STUPID.
>>44138614
Ok, you are correct. A level 20 fighter with no magic items indeed has lower stats than a level 20 fighter who does!
Good job!
>>44138620
Technically you're correct, the best kind of correct, however, this isn't saying 'we don't need no wizerds' this is 'we don't have wizards', because that GM is a HUGE faggot.
>>44138620
The "I don't need wizards" argument never really mattered to begin with.
>>44138131
>5E
>viable fighters
>AT ALL LEVELS OF PLAY
Stop, stop. You're killing me. Fighters aren't T5 or 6 anymore, but they're not above T3.
Paladins, you could make an argument for.
Okay, since this topic's been done to death lets talk about something else.
New topic:
>How to deal with STDs and magic combined.
>>44138652
If the GM is this much of a "fuck you, enjoy your muds and penises", how the fuck do you think this fighter is going to have the piles of gold and months of free time required to craft this shit?
The amount of gold to craft all of the gear he needs is staggering.
>>44138678
wait what? 5e fighters are fine
>>44138702
The amount of dirt sold was literally a kingdom.
>>44138678
You what? You do realize Battle Masters have the highest damage output per-round of the first 5 rounds of combat compared against all classes, right?
You don't know anything about 5E if you think it's caster edition. Casters have utility, but they fall fucking flat when it comes to actually killing shit now. Only good killshot spell is Disintegrate, and they only get 6 of those a day, tops (and they have much better uses for their 8th and 9th slots, so more like 4).
Whatever your tier system is, it's utterly invalid in 5E. Paladins don't come anything close to the damage output of either Battle Masters or Champions.
>>44138757
>battle masters and champions
wew lad
>>44138826
Do you have any grasp of 5E at all? Those are Fighter archetypes.
>>44134579
I once DM'ed a wacky megalomaniac sorcerer that stuffed his corpse abominations with gold coins, essentially making them silver-piñatas, to encourage random wandering heroes to explore his ever-expanding maze of fuckshit.
Exclusivly communicating through magic mouth spells and always being accompanied by a roomload of animated furniture.
>You haven't really lived untill you've been kicked in the shin by a chair.
The players loved it at least.
>>44133988
Low magic settings.
Dark Sun
things where it's thematically appropriate for your gear to me shit and your resources to be limited, yea.
>wizard-masturbating fanboys ruin yet another thread
business as usual then.
>>44138904
Well wizards are the class that require the most bookwork and we all know the people who browse /tg/ have absolutely nothing better to do in their infinite free time.
>>44138904
>f-fighters are the best
You're playing the wrong game, friendo.
Also, lolling at 'tards that think Battle Masters/Champions are relevant to anything aside from a big fat hunk of HP standing around on the ground.
They can't fly/leave the plane they're on/etc.
You're useful in a party now as the meat grinder, but you're not ready for the Big Boy League yet. Sorlock is king in 5E.
>>44138980
>think Battle Masters/Champions are relevant to anything aside from a big fat hunk of HP standing around on the ground.
Guess what 5E mostly is?
70% of monsters are "beatstick with a fat HP pool".
As are 70% of enemy classes.
5E is built for the fucking "meat grinder".
And Sorclocks are just one unexpected quirk that stand head and shoulders above everyone due to completely unanticipated synergy. No other casters have as much turn-to-turn damage. Using them as your staple is retarded.
>>44139025
Sorlock isn't that great though, it gets outdamaged by fighters, paladins and rangers with little investment, is awesome but not king at all
>>44139025
>using effective synergy as a staple is retarded
I see.
I've been in several different adventure groups where this has been the case. Whenever the GM arbitrarily decides that the system is completely flawed from a loot viewpoint, they invariably decide that we need LESS loot and resources. Wether we're playing as pitfighters, playing a "realistic" game, or simply the GM thinks he's a lot better than those silly game designers it with their stupid job titles and experience, it always ends up with us having basically no loot progression, money or hell, even basic creature comforts, even though we specifically play characters out to MAKE MONEY, even though the threats and enemies keep getting bigger and bigger for every level. It's not very fun fighting creatures resistant to non-magical weapons when all we have is a divining mage too poor to actually throw her spells. Or when you create a pit fighter who graciously gets awarded a magical weapon...that he can't even use, with a bonus to a very specialized fighting style. Or when the GM decides that ye olde magical shoppes and "magical swords 'R us blacksmithing corp" are "silly" and thus we need to spend two sessions trying to find someone who can craft us weapons strong enough to fight our way to the rune-smith...who's the only one who can make weapons better. It's just wonderful, folks.
>>44139116
By level 20, I think you mean, but sorclocks are pumping out damage far beyond the curve at level 5. It's pretty stupid.
>>44139124
Using an unintended interaction between Eldritch Blast, Hex, and Metamagic is retarded, yes.
It's long been determined that Eldritch Blast should've been a class feature, not a cantrip. Sadly it's too late for that.
>>44139116
No, it only gets outdamaged by fighters in the long run. Paladins and Rangers cannot catch-up to a Fire Sorc/Warlock.
> Fire Sorc 17/ Warlock 3 will be able to do as much consistent damage as the fighter, and even then that's only because of the wombo-combo of 9th level scorching ray+hex, and then an 8th+7th level scorching ray+hex. Assuming the target doesn't die horribly and isn't immune to fire or necrotic damage, that two round combo deals 30d6+50 (155) damage on the first round, and then 51d6+85, bringing the damage at round 2 to 418. Round 3 gets you 45d6+75 gets you to 651. Round 4 is a level 5 and 6 slot, for 39d6+65, getting you to 852. Round 6 is two level 5 slots, for 36d6+60 for 1,038. Round 7 is two level 4 slots, round 8 is 1 level 4 and 1 level 3, round 9 is two level 3's, and round 10 he sacrifices the other warlock spell and casts a quickened eldritch blast. Over all extra damage is an extra 370.5, bringing us to 1,408.5 damage before accuracy or crits are involved.
>>44133988
Yeah. Saved the King of a nation once. The party got a grand total sum of 250 gp. By level 5 we still had our starting equipment. The only magical item we found was a full suit of platemail sized for a halfling. A stay at an Inn was 10gp per night.
>>44139222
>A stay at an Inn was 10gp per night.
Jegus fuck is that the most resplendent inn in the nation?
That's like $1000-$1500 a night.
You can get ten goats for that much.
>>44133988
Outside of survivial campaigns where money is for the most part fairly irrelevant? No, not really. I personally like to get the majority of the party's "core" equipment pretty early on, so I'll usually hand out shit. When I'm a player, I will often try to negotiate with my GM to have a good set of starting gear at the tradeoff of not taking any party gold or enemy drops unless I absolutely need to in order to survive.
>>44135714
Nice to see you have someone who doesn't know how to Feat fighters.
I'm actually about to DM for the first time and I've been wondering about this. How much loot is the right amount? Should I keep track of what every bandit has on them, how much ransom junk should I scatter through the ruin, what makes a good end-of-dungeon reward without being TOO good, and so on. I can't find any good guides about this anywhere. Any help?
>>44136606
>Except damage is a good way to make enemies dead.
You lose what... 1/4 to hit per level by using Druids or Clerics.
There isn't anything resembling good feats that would justify the loss of i.e Bless or Barkskin.
Flight is worth about 300 ranks of Jump.
DnD is just a very poorly balanced game.
Fighter has no reason to exist unless you has some extensive insane feats to drag from splat books, and even then its not that impressive.
>>44136632
For the love of God, play NWN.
All the Fear auras is basically Save or Die in its purest form. That even applies to all your Henchmen or summons.
It lasts what... 10-20 rounds? For just 1 failure of save.
>>44139700
So stop fighting dragons
>>44139855
You encounter Aura of Fear in all chapters, and there is no Dragons until chapter 3.
>>44133988
I have issues with d20 for roughly this reason.
The ballooning in wealth from level one to five (and beyond) is insane.
As a GM, I'd like to give semi-reasonable amounts of loot; but at 8th level you have to be bringing in a few hundred gold per encounter or stay 'on level', or whatever...
At any rate, I apparently was being a fairly stingy GM at one point, and rather than mention it to me, one of the players decided to minmax a crafter wizard to make what wealth I was giving them go the requisite distance. I guess it worked, though it was kind of a "what the hell, man?" situation after the fact; they didn't tell me for like three or four levels.
>>44139608
>Fighter has no reason to exist
Everything below tier 1 has no right to exist in any setting regardless of that setting's details.
>>44140035
Some times, the Tier 2 or Tier 3 classes can do roles Tier 1 classes can.
Thats still no excuse to have such poor balance.
>>44139888
And Daelan gives you an amulet with fear immunity in chapter 1, what's your point?
>>44140245
It's still no excuse to have those tier 2 or 3 classes anyways.
>>44140957
Where's the tier list for these tiers?
>>44141008
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System
Or google if it you want the explanation.
Basically Utility spells is worth insane amount of skill ranks, and levels. Combined with the fact Save or Die bypasses a 30-40 round encounter with worse classes.
>>44139255
Nah. That was for a room with a bed in some backwoods shithole.
>>44133988
tfw I was that dm.
I have. In that case it was just ignorance. He just gave out wealth and set costs pretty much randomly. He was otherwise a decent GM so I took him aside one time and said, "Hey, Pathfinder, and its challenge ratings, are designed expecting us to have a certain level of wealth at a given point. With the wealth we have, you should be treating us as about a level lower than we are, going by the challenge ratings. If you want to do that it's fine, the encounters have mostly been mostly balanced so far, maybe a little too hard for the XP, just wanted to make sure you're aware."
He nodded, and gave us a big score the next time.
In the game I'm trying to get off the ground right now, I actually give adventurer's "intrinsic magic" that gives them enhancement bonuses they can spread around based on their level, and then give them almost solely "flavorful" magic items. Less useful in terms of numbers, but funny or interesting stuff.
>>44139255
Bread buying power based on D&D 3.5 DM's Guide says a gold piece is the equivalent of about 50 USD, 2015.
reminder that gold is the most expensive coin and represents sum totals of silver and copper currency
>>44136706
Get your fucking reasonable and balanced opinions out of here. You think this is rpg.net, GitP or TSR's forums or some shit?
>>44137389
No, anti-matter reacts and annihilates with any matter, it just reacts most efficiently and rapidly with matter of the same type.
>>44139555
There's a guide in the DMG that has suggested treasure pools per level up. Just estimate how much of the game they go through per level up, and spread out that treasure through there. If you're beginning, you should stick to that, and make sure they're around the right Wealth-by-Level every other level or so.
Once you've got a better picture of how levels, challenge, and wealth interacts, you can wing it more, give them extra or less here and there, tune for classes etc.
