>>44090936
It has nothing to do with alignment.

It's science vs faith, essentially.

Arcane Magic has components, similar to alchemy. If you want to make this, you must add this + this, while using knowledge and focus.

Divine Magic on the other hand, is powered by faith (and the fact that the god you worship actually exists). My god told me that I can strike down my enemies with holy bolts, and he's actually given me a part of his power to throw holy bolts.

Why would those be the same thing? Unless you want to argue at the fundamental level, like "what is the holy bolt that the god gave the cleric actually made out of?"

At this point, it becomes a distinction between whether there are different sources of magic in your setting or not. Is magic made of the same magical-atoms? If yes, then all a God really is would be a wizard that became so fuckin' good at magic and imbueing himself with power directly that he can afford to transmit some of his power to servants.

I'm not crazy fond of Gods in setting for this reason alone. I like Magic more like alchemy/science on crack, without a Divine angle.

>>44090936
Devine power stems from your belife in a deity, if you belive it and are his bitch he will bestow his power onto you, magic is a force taped into without the need of a belife, you are using a natural force in the world like you would use a rock, just much more powerful and useful. While those two can be intertwined i like to separate them, mainly because often they are used differently. My clerics/priests buff/heal/protect with enough practice they may become a holy death machine half way impossible to kill on the battlefield because the god like them, my mages on the other hand and like scientists. This is to say they poke shit to see what it dose and have little or no morals in their quest for knowledge

Divine magic is not really magic. It is the universe rearranging itself to obey the commands of the gods because as the creators of the universe the gods have the right to do with it as they please.
There is no "fireball spell", there is just "god decrees you are now burning to death", and so the person combusts into inextinguishable flames until they're dead.

>>44090936
>Implying wizards are not already gods

There's only one game worth playing and you all know it.

>>44090936

A better question is why divine magic rarely involves divination as a specialisation.

>>44091217
Because when your DM/God actually wants you to do something, he directly tells you anyways, for free. Why would you waste time speccing into Divination? Wasteful.

Even when you do, the DM just uses it as an excuse to fuck you.

>DM wants you to know something, he tells you.
>You want to know something? Enjoy your convoluted riddles and half truths

>>44091007
Did you know you can get spell checkers for every browser?

why not have wizards just be shitty gods, that would make more sense.

>>44091205
...GURPS?

>>44091217
Divine magic getting healing makes more sense thematically and helps it be mechanically different from arcane. Divine does get divination magic but it's much more DM fiat as words from God compared to arcane's "you see a guy who is really far away"

>>44090936
In my system, arcane and 'divine' magic tap into the same source, but with different approaches - arcane magic being about control through discipline, study and symbols, being more close to an art, a craft, while 'divine' magic is a manifestation of passions through force of will and faith/determination. Of course both approaches are possible only for a person which possesses the innate power to use their soul as a means to access the aforementioned source (and such individuals are barely a few in a million).

Then there's druidic magic that has an entirely different source instead.

>>44090936
I cant remember where I learned this probably 3.5 but the way I've come to understand it is that the difference between Arcane and Divine magic is that Arcane magic is a natural force that can be manipulated through proper study whereas Divine magic is granted to you to manipulate the world around you.

Effectively Arcane magic is "earned" while Divine magic is "granted". So Wizards/Bards "earn" Arcane magic through years of study and Sorcerers got lucky with bloodline shenanigans but still have to just kind of figure it out while Clerics, Paladins, Druids, and Rangers are each granted their powers by a greater force than themselves such as their deity, their adherence to righteousness/their oath, or nature itself respectively.

In any case, the fundamentals of what magic IS remains the same. Regardless of HOW you get your spells a fireball is more or less identical from caster to caster in that it is always temporarily borrowing some fire from the Elemental Plane of Fire and sending it back when you're done with it...according to D&D anyway.

Because back when D&D was mostly a wargame, there was only a "wizard" class; no "cleric" class. Then one of the players made a vampire character, so another player wanted to make a Van Helsing-type character to counter the vampire.

They made up the Cleric class because of this.

Now decades later, we divide RPG magic into "wizard magic" and "priest magic", just like how elves' bonuses to sleep and charm spells is a relic of a Chainmail rule patch from 30+ years ago.

I like to divide magical elements in a setting into two groups, supernatural, which are part of the way the world works, and fantastical, which in some way alter the way that the world works, (I'm aware they probably have different meanings but I just use this to help me explain things to other people).

So if I'm going to apply this to a setting which has the arcane/divine magic divide I'd probably have arcane magic be supernatural (functioning more like alchemy by using special materials and tools to achieve magical effects) and divine magic would be fantastical (the gods are directly intervening and changing creation in accordance with what their worshipers want, within reason).

>>44090936
Magic as science always leads to super-retarded worldbuilding when you think about it, nothing else produces as many "well... why don't people just use it for x?" moments as magic that acts in a way that can be documented and repeated.

Magic acquired from pacts with terrible things from some other place, or that's tapping into gods or whatever always works better for the simple reason that it can still use the "Gods work in mysterious ways/it's magic I ain't got to explain shit" excuse.

As soon as you start sending people to wizard school where they learn that certain words set things on fire the whole setting becomes irrevocably retarded and reliant on the whole "It's not stupid as long as you don't pause to think about it" school of thought.

If I got my magic through some kind of deal with a demon, or god, it works perfectly with it being unpredictable (maybe I was weak in my faith or the demon just gypped me) or being narrowly focused (Why can't I also use this spell to revolutionize agriculture or mining? Because that's not what the god wants you to do with it, that's why).

As soon as it's just "guys, I know the cheat codes to the universe" you have to start explaining why people haven't used it for more logical and constructive stuff than setting each other on fire, or why magical healers aren't all super rich and employed by royalty.

Saying that magic is given to people by gods or entities with agendas and opinions basically lets you, the creator, keep the setting the way you want it and the way you think is cool, but as soon as you say that it's just a kind of science, you're giving it to the people of the setting to use as they wish, and they'll definitely come up with more sensible ways to use it than you, and it won't be as cool.

wouldn't putting a bugle on the spider's head keep it from being able to see, or is their vision that bad anyway?

>>44096201
How well do you think it would work if the spirit entities that sorcerers work with to do magic are fickle and potentially dangerous but don't actually particularly give a shit what you use the power before? It's less like making a deal with the devil and more like herding cats if the cats are tigers.

>>44096481
That can work pretty well, it's similar to how we do it in one of my longest-running settings.

The world of mortal overlaps the world of spirits, a (I know, so original) and magic is performed by individuals who are sensitive to the presence of spirits or the places where the overlap is strong and the individual can tap in more directly, or by indirectly influencing spirits.

As an example, bard-type magic largely revolves around the fact that the really, really minor spirits enjoy rhythmical noises and regular patterns (because the spirit realm is fluid and ever changing so they contrast attracts them) so you can light a fire (or create a raging inferno) by attracting a minor fire-spirit or playing your heart out until there are so many of them around you that things start going black in the corners.

So magic is either herding cats (minor spirits who aren't very clever or individually powerful) or making deals with the powerful ones who have more of a sense of self/some kind of intelligence and that you can ask for more specific/elaborate things.

The first is kind of like asking kids or animals for favours. They might help you, but they're shit at understanding complex instructions and easily distracted, but on the other hand you can usually get their attention with bright colours or fun noises and they're not very dangerous to deal with.

Making deals or asking the powerful spirits on the other hand is like borrowing money from the mob. You'll get what you ask for and it's probably going to accomplish your goals, but you better be ready to pay up when they come to collect.

>>44090936
In my setting, the god s have clearly defined limits for the spells their followers are allowed to use and how often, because things would essentially turn into a divine barfight over the realm ofherwise. The god of arcane magic basically decided that he was going to let magic be used by non-priests to provide a safeguard against one preisthood sweeping the land in monopoly, but there's a catch- he can't refuse to give power to someone who meets the requirements.
Including people he disagrees with.
He is, however, the one who handles Wish, so it's a bad idea to piss him off if you're a student of the arcane.
Basically, if you cast in this realm, you play by the realm's rules.
Warriors got the short end of the stick because gods of war aren't worshipped as much. However, when they are, things like war chants and enchanted weapons are more the norm rather than spells.

there is no arcane or divine split in 5e. so i can assume it will disappear from the rest of rpgs soon. not coz of 5e, but because being the largest its probably a sign of the times

inb4 derelicte my fucking balls

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What if regular magick and divine magick came from the same source, but the people in-setting didn't realize it?

>>44090936
>how come in so many systems magic is different from divine energy,
Science vs religion trope?

How about the fact that "wizardry" and "witchcraft" were "satan's tools" according to certain branches of christians around the 50's-70's.

Plus that whole witch-burning thing.

>but most wizards are good

The fuck?

>>44090936
u wot

anon, i'll be honest here - this reads like a dyslexic mess of disjointed arguments.

>>44090936
I like the concept that gods are filters for magical energy.
The energy is just there flowing in the universe... wizards channel and shape it, but they take the risks of doing so, and are rewarded with being able to do anything their mind desires. They take the putty and model the putty bird, getting dirty in the process. The bird is as pretty as the wizard is intelligent
Divine casters don't channel the dangerous magic energy, instead offering prayers so their gods do it for them. They don't risk the backlash of the enrgy since it doesn't flow through them while being shaped, but through their gods. They also can't choose exactly what to shape, having to ask their gods for something and hope they understand what, and are willing to do so. They hand the putty to a responsible adult, and ask them to shape a bird. The bird may or may not be shit, the adult may mishear and shape a turd, or he may simply be too tired forthis shit. At least you do'nt get dirty.
I also sometimes like to play with a polar opposite concept when dealing with gnosticism in my settings:
Wizards have to abide and study the rules of the universe, and create magic that fits into the internal workings of it. They are lawyers who navigate a sea of law and rules to reach the desired sentence from a judge.
Divine casters, who may or may not believe their magic comes from any sorts of gods, or from the primal energy of the universe(the actual right answer), just will things into being. They are legislators with some serious cheese, just create the law you want and fuck h8ters.

>>44090936
To be honest I figured it was a relic from the Lord of the Rings that never left fantasy.

In LotR Wizards and Elves were created to have what we would deem magic powers, though they refused to call it magic because it was natural to them.

What these peoples called magic or sorcery was the type of spells that Humans, Dwarves or Orcs use since they had no supernatural powers of their own but instead drew it from Melkor who is basically a demi-god stuck in another dimension. The mouth of Sauron and some of the Nine wraiths were sorcerers who drew power from Melkor for instance.

>>44090936
Political correctness of editors to avoid being accused of occultism and paganism. Similar reasons why historical-fiction/myth-making genre was renamed to fantasy.

>>44090936
Can someone put a caption on OPs image of "The Shit I Put Up With"

>>44091454
>Divine magic getting healing makes more sense thematically
Only if your only point of reference is the Bible.