The four powers of Chaos:
To live is to die.
To fight is to live.
To live is to struggle.
To live is to feel.
Where does Undivided fall within this pantheon of motivations? Is it to be subjugated by ones own emotions, or is it the aspiration to rise above them? Taking this further, with a more specific example: Countless thralls flock to Nurgle to save them, only to die by the pestilent gifts they so ignorantly asked for, but isn't the alternative and endless, slavish servitude as a daemon?
Does it just boil down to how much you value your own life (or the base emotions of the pantheon)? I mean, atleast among the traitor Astartes, if it is truly just immortality that they seek would it not be better to simply hunker down in a fortress world for all eternity?
An Astartes would live long enough to grow board of life (hell, for many plague marines death is their ultimate reward), and perhaps that's what drives some of the traitors out to seek war, while for many others I'm sure simple zealousness for their patron is sufficient.
My thoughts are convoluted on the matter. What do you think?
>>44069994
Like pretty much all things about Chaos, what Undivided means depends on the context of who is using it.
The Word Bearers believe that Chaos is a singular entity spread into four distinct fragments, and believe that by furthering the various causes of Chaos that they will bring about the Primordial Truth and learn the secrets of the universe. A Word Bearer must study and understand the concept and basic intricacies of each God, and practice certain rituals to each one all the time in order to continue their understanding. However, while they believe they perform the will of the Gods, they are also not willing to completely subject themselves to a single God, as they believe doing so removes you from the path of Enlightenment and sends you spiraling into oblivion as you descend in to total madness. This discipline and controlled approach to Chaos is why so many Word Bearers retain their intellect and purpose better than most other Chaos Marines of a similar age.
If you're in the Black Legion school of thought, Chaos Undivided is simply using the various powers of Chaos to further your own ambitions and goals. A follower of Chaos Undivided is not picky about who his patron is or how he serves the Chaos Gods - only that he is able to accomplish his mission. While they value purity of purpose much like the Word Bearers, their end game is not the ascension of Chaos and the destruction of the Galaxy but the overthrow of the Imperium and to be installed as its new rulers, and bring their version of order to the galaxy. Chaos is the most valuable weapon in their arsenal to accomplish this goal - while you are encouraged to understand it, and eventually becoming devoted to a single God is more than tolerated (even rewarded), you must still be willing to use the gifts that the Gods give you to further the grand design of your Legion/Warband. Common to these types of Warbands/Legions is a council of Marked Advisers of each God to an undivided Lord.
>>44070140
Nice to see an informed post now and then.
>>44069994
>>44070140
Very interesting point matey,
But degenration into nutters isvery much a threat to even those who follow undivided. I guess its the whole nature thing with chaos with whatever does not kill you makes you stronger.
>>44069994
I tend to believe it is something of a mixture of both - one's own emotions goes hand in hand with their desires. Though I'd argue that their emotions and desires get shaped by the Gods when they're corrupted, like in the case of the Death Guard or the Emperor's Children.
Probably my biggest example for this is the Sanctified warband - a warband of former Word Bearers who refused to retreat to the Eye of Terror at the end of the Heresy, and continued the Long War more directly for milennia. This obsession with continuing the war and the fighting probably turned them to Khorne as much as any personal ambition did.
As far as I know, for most Chaos Space Marines, their goals are varied, but often include tearing down the Imperium and taking advantage of the freedoms offered through Chaos worship and the lack of restriction and dogma as under a Space Marine chapter.
>>44070300
Of course it's a threat. However, the Word Bearers approach of discipline and constant study and oversight by the Dark Apostles (they are one of the most centralized and regimented Legions, including in all manners spiritual) they are significantly less likely to loose their minds while still a part of the Legion itself, to the point where even their Dreadnoughts are capable of retaining their sanity to the level a Loyalist can due to their raw willpower and faith (Such as the Warmonger).
Black Legion is somewhat more susceptible, but their approach of using Chaos as opposed to following Chaos means that they're still more resistant to losing their heads than a purely devoted Marine, and the fact that they are constantly held to the Legions goals and methods means that they have a purpose that goes above and beyond their devotion to a particular God or Gods.
>>44069994
Is chaos undecided not retconned?
IIRC the current thinking is that marines worship gods selfishly for reward. (ie do the gods work make offerings be granted power and reward) And you would worship the four gods individually until one of them manages to enslave you, and from there you become one of their one note creatures, losing yourself in their aspect until the follower is simply a directionless killer, a degenerate obsessed with overwhelming sensation, a hopeless scheming fool and a revolting and pathetic creature that wishes for death. Daemonhood is no defense each daemon prince is tied to their god and therefore a slave to its aspect, along with losing their mortal perspective. Abaddon is now special for not being ensnared, and he that should not be named is the only undivided prince. Chaos is largely ruined IMO.
>>44070140
anon has excellent taste, but I believe it to be educated headcanon now.
>>44070880
>marines worship gods selfishly for reward
Whoops. The option to NOT worship should account for the majority of CSM, anon. IIRC the current thinking is that 4 legions pledged as Champions for the ruinous powers and the other 5 legions are wildcards. If we add the steady drip of Thorpe's "renegade chapters" into the genpop, then most CSM won't get "enslaved," either.
>>44072223
I would counter that the largest group of the night lords worship chaos (Acerbus is his name I think). Also the thoughts and choices of line infantry is largely irrelevant as they are constantly portrayed as following their betters which ever way they go. Finally the eye of terror is a corrupting influence on both the minds and bodies of many of its residents.
Even if you look at your wildcards
NL Acerbus' warband of chaos loving lads
AL ??? Currently no god of memes but DoW did depict them as chaos
BL Whores to demons is standard operating procedure (IA article)
WB Full chaos worship
IW Easily the least corrupted; IA article from way back had them using khorne berzerkers
As for renegades Huron bitched out rather than dying, his lads wear the chaos star
Lots of other renegades are absorbed by him or abbadon.
Then you have stupid shit like the blood tide corrupting marines.
They are called slaves to darkness for a reason anon.
>>44069994
Man, GW marines art becomes more retarded every year.
>>44070880
Undivided as its own entity has been retconned, so no undivided marks or daemon princes, aside from a few cases where all the gods decide to bless a single person, but there are still Chaos worshippers who worship the gods as a pantheon (most Word Bearers, for example).
>>44070424
I really think those worshippers making stairsteps should just collapse and be crushed under the Astartes guy.
It would utterly ruin the WB's intended dramatic poise - And he couldn't actually punish anybody because the stair-guys were already dead.
>>44073325
which is stupid, because then what god does Lorgar owe fealty to? M'kar? Perturabo? Kernax Voldarius? Kor Megron? These are all people who ascended to daemonhood without a specific patron.
It makes no sense for GW to muddy their fluff for literally no reason. Chaos Undivided doesn't effect the main "plot" of 40k in any way, so why bother changing it?
>>44075088
>>44073325
In game if a character without a mark rolls Dark Apotheosis they become a markless daemon prince.
Also, here's a thought, maybe these princes aren't de facto undivided in the traditional sense, but perhaps they ascended through more than one (but less than four) God's power?
Where does it say that what's-his-face is the "only undivided" daemon price again? I think I want to take a closer look at the wording.
>>44075088
Because GW.
>>44070424
Interesting. Is this why they also tend to have more Possessed Marines? Because they are better able to handle something like that?
>>44075597
>perhaps they ascended through more than one (but less than four) God's power?
This could very much be the case. An undivided champion may be blessed by different gods at different times if he perform an act that pleases them. Outsmarting an enemy commander may get him blessed with a deamonic gift by Tzeentch, offering an Eldar spiritstone another day might make Slaanesh give him heightened senses but it could be a spectacular decapitation of a Chapter master that makes Khorne elevate him to a Prince. He will then bear the mark of Khorne despite being undivided in life because it was Khorne who decided he was worthy of princedom. Bear in mind that a champion who dedicates himself to one particular god is far more likely to ascend.
>>44075088
Of course it's stupid. We are talking about present day GW here.
Why anyone still follows modern fluff is beyond me. Unless they're trolling like Carnac
>>44069994
The answer is simple: Don't be a heretic, follow the Emperor.
>>44077465
We're sick of his lies, brother.
You've been lied to enough.
>>44075088
I'd consider Lorgar one of the rare exceptions, who got raised to daemonhood by all the gods. Like how Abaddon still has the marks of all the gods.
Of course Be'lakor getting shoehorned in 40k messed that up since he's directly stated to be the only undivided prince, which eaves the question of the non-god-aligned daemon primarchs.
>>44076300
>Why anyone still follows modern fluff is beyond me.
Because the Power of Undivided isn't meant to be handed out like candy. It's meant for one of an age characters with powerful will. Powerful enough to defy the four Chaos God and remain independent. To be Undivided is to fight against the very gods you serve as much as you serve them.
Lorgar is too much of a weakling to be Undivided. He is craven and he is weak.
>>44075088
>Chaos Undivided doesn't effect the main "plot" of 40k in any way, so why bother changing it?
The champions that united Chaos to rockk the entire setting have always been Undivided, you mook.
Be'lakor, Horus, Abaddon, and Archaoon from fantasy. Undivided is the most influential and rarest Power of Chaos.
>>44077543
>which eaves the question of the non-god-aligned daemon primarchs
There is no question.
The other Daemon Princes are dedicated to single gods we just don't know what patron is sponsoring them yet.
>>44078098
>The other Daemon Princes are dedicated to single gods we just don't know what patron is sponsoring them yet.
Sorry, but can I get a citation? Is there anything explicit to say that they must be single-god dedicated?
>>44078179
Yes. Be'lakor being the only Undivided Daemon Prince, like you said.
>>44078198
We got to get a snipet from his dataslate. I don't think there's anything to say that other daemon princes could be multi-god ventures, so long as Belakor remains the only one who was favored by all four.
>>44077543
>which eaves the question of the non-god-aligned daemon primarchs.
Daemon Primarchs are an entirely different class of Daemon, as they are to Daemon Princes what Daemon Princes are to Daemons. Their ascension to Daemonhood was during the time period where Chaos still worked together as a single entity to overthrow the Imperium, as their support of Lorgar and Horus proves. No Daemon Princes since them have been Undivided, but until there is information to the contrary, it can be reasonably assumed that both Perturabo and Lorgar are Undivided Daemon Primarchs, because them being anything else makes virtually zero sense, especially since their legions are quite devoted to them and would automatically follow them into the worship of their patron God if they ascended, and since neither the Word Bearers or Iron Warriors have done so, it can be assumed that is not the case until information to the contrary arises.
>>44078254
Daemon Primarchs are not a different class of anything.
They are just Daemon Princes. Not even the most powerful. Be'lakor and Doombreed are way more powerful than them.
And Lorgar and Pert are not Undivided.
>>44078254
I've used that same argument against this same guy, and it doesn't quite seem to work on the fact that even GW calls daemon primarchs "daemon princes" intermittently.
>>44078347
Be'Lakor was killed by falling rocks.
>>44078359
It's a weak desperate argument and you should be ashamed of inventing it. The Daemon Primrchs have never been their one class of daemon. No more a class of their own than the Eight Daemon Princes of the Skullsworn.
>>44078440
Fantasy Be'lakor. Who was weakened by Tzeentch and had to slowly regain his power over he course of the story. When Be'lakor managed to remove the curse on him and reclaim a portion of his power, he was an equal to a group of Slann mages and the Incarnates.
40K Be'lakor who retained much of his power is the most powerful daemon prince in the setting.
>>44078054
then explain the word bearers
>>44078474
What has Belakor ever done in 40k?
>>44078445
It was one based on logic in that every reference that I could recall about them specifically called them daemon primarchs. Having counter evidence does not make an argument sound or unsound, learn some fucking logic.
>>44078514
>It was one based on logic in that every reference that I could recall about them specifically called them daemon primarchs
If you believe that, then you haven't done much reading.
>>44078506
Was instrumental in the rise of Abaddon.
Will herald the End Times.
>>44078491
Deluded fools.
>>44078566
>Was instrumental in the rise of Abaddon.
When.
>>44078566
>If you believe that, then you haven't done much reading.
Did you just say if I believe what I recollect to be true?
As in the basis of any assertion ever? You are an idiot.
It doesn't matter how much I've read if the information is misremembered or confabulation, nor does it make any argument valid or invalid. Try harder.
>>44078587
Was the mastermind behind several Black Crusade. It's all in his dataslate.
>>44078632
Just saying you made a poor argument from ignorance. If I recall correctly, you stuck to it zealously until you were provided by numerous examples.
>>44078684
I didn't ask about Black Crusades. What does he have to do with the Rise of Abbadon.
What has he ever done besides pull off "IT WAS ME ALL ALONG"s?
>>44078684
>If I recall correctly, you stuck to it zealously until you were provided by numerous examples.
You're right, I'll leave the arguments to the people who have all the facts and drop my assertions without needing to see counter evidence.
>>44078710
He manipulated things behind the shadows to ensure that Abaddon rise to power but not rise too much beyond his influence.
The Black Crusades are the reason Abaddon rose in power and favour. Be'lakor personally directed the events of these Crusades from the shadows and influenced Abaddon's decision making.
>>44078811
Abaddon is literally beyond the control of the Chaos Gods and is using each of them without succumbing. How would he be controlled by a lesser Daemon? Belakor is just a wild card the gods use against each other that thinks it has free will when he doesn't.
>>44078856
Abaddon is aware of Be'lakor's manipulation. They are using each other but both of them know that a reckoning will come between them in the End Times.
>>44078566
>Deluded fools.
yet they've retained the greatest level of legion cohesion amongst the traitors since the heresy...
>>44078912
Deluded in their beliefs. Nobody said that they sucked at everything else.
They are still second fiddle to the mighty Black Legion, though. Oh...I think I recall something about a civil war brewing in the Word Bearers. Something between Kor Phaeron and Erebus.
>>44078347
TT Belakor would lose to most primarchs even without their Chaos powers.
>>44078954
TT=/= fluff.
Thousand Son sorcerer who has met Magnus and knows the true name of Doombreed and can summon him, says that Be'lakor was the most powerful and terrible daemon prince he encountered.
(Source : "Ahriman : The First prince").
>>44079035
>1K Son summoning a Khornate daemon
Does anyone else feel like this shouldn't work?
>>44079083
Knowing the true name of a daemon gives you power over it, regardless of its origin.
>>44079140
So daemons can't refuse to be summoned?
>>44079186
Yes, they can't. True names give you power over them. Sorcerers can basically enslave them.
>>44079035
>TT=/= fluff.
It's closer than Black Library
>>44078951
How are their beliefs deluded? Where the traitors who dedicated themselves to Khorne and Slaanesh have fractured beyond recognition, the Word Bearers have maintained unity arguably because of Lorgar's religion.
>>44079245
I disagree.
In the fluff in GW and BL, we see stuff that would never happen on the TT.
>>44079262
>How are their beliefs deluded?
There is no such thing as Chaos Undivided in the Warp. Their whole religion is a sham.
>>44079035
Most powerful doesn't need necessarily mean "could beat every other daemon prince in a fist fight," granted I'm sure that character wasn't talking about Bel's army or arsenal.
Bel is canonically the most powerful, absolutely, but I think people get too wrapped up in it and that it tends to be written with heavy bias (least we forget all loyalists look to and see Calgar as their spiritual liege).
I think it's perfectly fine to say that he could be the most powerful, and still get his ass handed to him in 1v1 by another daemon.
