Sorry but WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?!
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Sith
Sorry to sperg the fuck out here but how is this even a thing? A friend who rps on SWTOR also said it's rife with CG-esque sith and evil-bent jedi.
Does everything have to have the 'shades of grey' treatment? Is good and evil a boring concept?
>>44041824
>Does everything have to have the 'shades of grey' treatment? Is good and evil a boring concept?
uhhhhhhhhhhh.
Yes?
Not only are their boring but extensionless concepts as well.
>>44041848
I mean, that shit IS retarded, but Jedi have their share of going full retard, and sometimes the Sith do have a point.
>>44041824
>Legacy
Not necessarily considered actual canon.
>>44041824
>the Jedi philosophy at its core is all about dominating your emotions and becoming a cog in a well-oiled machine
>the Sith philosophy, while used mostly by edgelords, actually ends up being a lot more humane
Also the Jedi are hypocrites, so.
>>44041824
>Is good and evil a boring concept?
Yes.
>>44041824
>Does everything have to have the 'shades of grey' treatment?
>Do characters have to have depth and nuance to them?
What, do you want all characters to be two dimensional card board cut outs?
>>44041824
>Is good and evil a boring concept?
There are so few examples of pure good and pure evil in real life. It's understandably difficult to make fictional representations of these polar opposites resonate with audiences.
>>44041824
I don't like the term 'Light Sith'.
I really enjoyed that the 'Light Side' Sith Warrior in TOR was just being pragmatic. Less sparing people cause it was the right thing to do and more preserving assets. Also being a smartass.
>>44042970
The male VA also delivers 10/10 lines
>>44041824
>what is this
>Legends
It's not canon, that's what it is.
>>44041973
You realize the "humane" Empire was a Nazi Germany allegory, and that claiming the Jedi are the ones whose humanity is squeezed into something which can be described as a well-oiled machine is, well, funny?
>>44042970
"Light Side" Sith Warrior would be such an interesting storyline if it was a singleplayer RPG and written more competently (for lack of a better word) and skips the last part on planet Crayon people (or rewrites it heavily).
It was so refreshing to see a Sith that was very much Sith without being a puppykicking monster. Also, dat armor.
>>44041824
>Does everything have to have the shades of grey treatment?
Not necessarily.
>Is good and evil a boring concept.
I'd say its just overly simplistic, it can still be exciting if your good guys and bad guys are interesting and have legitimate reasons to fight each-other.
Light Sith is what happens when a EU of a universe goes full circle.
Its not a horrible idea, but Star Wars is a horrible framework for extension by amateur writers.
>>44041824
Here's the thing: Have you actually read the Sith Code? There's nothing in it about being an asshole.
Because it turns out the Sith and Jedi aren't Evil and Good, they're Chaotic and Lawful. The Jedi are about suppressing their emotions, working for the common benefit, etc. The Sith are about indulging Passion.
Stupidly, the core Sith see this as meaning "Anger, Ambition, and Pride". This is why they use the Dark Side. They don't help people because they're passionate about being assholes. They're /b/.
SOME Sith notice, "Hey, you know what else are passions? Joy and Love! And the equally-satisfying Pride from buidling things, or protecting people! Wow, why don't we do this stuff?"
At which point the edgelords in their own forces kill them, because they're stupid fucks, without any understanding of what public image is, or how life is much easier if people don't know you're a raging fucking asshole.
It's like the fucking Tarkin doctrine. The Empire is fucking retarded because it makes stupid fucking calls because no one in power has apparently EVER had a simple fucking image seminar.
I once explained to a friend how, with complete control of Imperial presentation, and something like, 4 speeches, I'd have been able to turn the Original trilogy into a win for the Empire. As in, the Rebels still blow up both Death Stars and kill the Emperor, and the Empire comes out better than it was before.
Because it's not that Good vs Evil is a boring concept. It's that too often, Evil has to be stupid to make Good look competent.
>>44043461
>>44043461
The Sith Code itself was a retcon. The first conceptualisations of the Sith had them as just another empire, so "light side" Sith is entirely within the spectrum, though it'd be more accurate to say they didn't share the Jedi philosophy of light side and dark side and treated the force more like magic.
And then KOTOR came and turned everything lulsoevil full retard for a while.
Not really.
At least, not with the new canon. As the core of being a Sith is being so afraid of death you'd do ANYTHING to avoid it.
You could have someone who follows the code but that's not really the core of being a Sith, just some of the philosophy.
That and you'd have a very hard time following the Rule of Two with the Light Side.Honestly, I prefer it this way. It gives a lot more room for dark side philosophies other than the Sith teachings like the Inquisitor from Rebels who is very much not a Sith despite being dark side
>>44043066
The Empire is not the sum of the Sith, man. It's the efforts of a single evil man.
>>44043530
True enough.
And with some actual fleshing out, that idea would work. The idea of another group of Force users who directly don't SEE it the way the Jedi do.
Tragically, it only gets explored as side-notes to the Jedi-Sith divide, and it's difficult to present it without it sounding stupid. For instance, I'm fairly certain there's a (old) canon instance of Luke using Force Lightning on someone, and it wasn't a Dark Side move, because he had just studied with a group that saw the Force as the various colors of light. It wasn't a Dark Side power, it was a "Green" one.
But there's something lost with that descriptor. A sense of grandeur, I suppose. Perhaps a Role system would sound better. Warrior, Shaman, Thief. (So Choke and Lightning are Warrior, Precognition and Telekinesis are Shaman, and things like Jump and Mind Trick are Thief)
But we have the setting we have. C'est la vie.
>>44043461
This exactly what I came up with back when I read the Sith code in KotOR days. The only problem is that it kind of seems like the Force is some kind of corrupting influence, if you believe this shit turns your eyes all gross. That shit is dumb.
>>44043733
>Sheev
>Evil
>>44043621
A past DM during a star wars game once used the line "A Jedi deadens himself, they deny passion and love, they remove all that makes them like the rest of us and still seek to tell us how to live our lives' (which Im pretty sure he stole from something)
But I kinda saw Jedi less as good and more as.. lawful neutral, They know that if a force sensitive listens to his emotions he eventually goes psycho nuts, which is why all Sith are murderous assholes, The power corrupts.
Being a Jedi doesnt make you a good person, But being a Sith definetly makes you a bad person
>>44043733
What Sith are we talking about, then? Because most all of them have been complete assholes. And when have the Jedi been about well-oiled social machination?
>>44043780
There was a quest in SWTOR for Sith warrior (and maybe others, I don't know) where you work with a Jedi and you can amaze him with your kindness and stuff. I don't remember exactly how it went, but I liked it.
>>44043845
Oddly enough, that''s a bit of what I was getting at with the Inquisitor.
He is, philosophically, rather closer to the Jedi than the Sith. He's calm, in tune with his surroundings rather than dominating them and focused on the idea that there are things bigger than him.And in the end he was willing to die. Something a Sith couldn't accept
>>44041848
Except no; remove moral relativism, you're the sophist scum you're the sophist smell.
>being sith automatically makes you a soul eating, baby killing, kitten kicking, dicklord
>being a jedi automatically makes you a super nice, awesome, righteous, supreme gentlemen.
never liked this concept that they show in the movies all the time
the third movie was especially bad at portraying this as Anakin went from being a decent, well reasoned dude who just happened to be in love. To someone who was willing to kill children just because a guy asked him to without question. This transformation took all of maybe 10 seconds
having some dudes that fill in the middle ground. Like Sith who do evil things but for good objectives are a good way to fill in that middle ground.
>>44043921
S'just bad writing. I mean I get how it could be considered the definitive vision for Star Wars, but it's pants-on-head-retarded. And also a bit silly to take Lucas' vision as gospel.
>>44043461
I dont think its quite lawful vs chaotic, sith are after all fairly structured with their own traditions, hierarchies and teachings.
Its about Collectivism (jedi) vs Individualism (Sith)
The jedi are told to give up on themselves and instead embrace the order/republic and work tirelessly for the benefit of others, whereas a sith is more or less told to do whatever the fuck he wants, with the caveat that anyone is free to kill him if they disagree.
Its kind of funny how I find the jedi ethics more frightening then the sith
>>44041913
It's got the "Legends" tag on the wiki, which is their way of saying "no longer canon."
>>44041824
So they're power hungry and evil but focus on controlling their emotions instead of letting their emotions control them? Sounds pretty logical to me. Not even grey, they're still Sith, just more in control than usual.
If anything, that makes them almost scarier,
>>44043921
Anakin was always completely unhinged. That's what being roided up on Force, living as a slave, then joining an extremely strict order while also getting screwed mentally by the Supreme Dark Lord of the Sith does to you.
BUT
The real flaw of the prequels was that they were always written with EU stuff in mind. Shit like books and The Clone Wars were supposed to fill in the gaps they left on purpose. That was just a really stupid move.
>>44041824
I played TOR as a Sith that wasn't a petty douchebag that indulged in pointless dickassery and promptly became 100% light side. I choked and electrocuted my fair share of idiots, imbeciles and failures, but if not killing somebody because he made one fucking honest mistake makes you Light Side, then the Sith Empire is filled with complete retards.
>>44044041
Somebody that is actually in control of himself and uses all tools he has to his advantage is always a lot more scarier and dangerous than a FOR THE EVULZ retard.
That's why I liked Dooku so much, apart from being played by Christopher Lee. He just seemed so in control.
>>44044041
I think you've got it backwards
>>44044155
Ofcourse its filled with utter retards, thats the very premise of the movies. "Under equipped untrained rebels going up against the well supplied huge evil empire"
The only way said rebels win is if the other guys throw, hard.
>>44043895
Wasn't the Inquisitor specifically referred to as a Dark Side Inquisitor, though?
I thought the only two Sith during the Galactic Republic era were Sidious and Vader.
>>44043461
I always took the lawful and chaotic thing along the lines used by 1980s fantasy games that worked along the same scale. Good and evil didn't follow law and chaos explicitly, but there was a strong implication.
The bad guys were usually chaotic because chaos was a slippery slope. Pushing individualism and personal passions too strongly results in a mentality that you can get ahead at the expense of others. A whole tragedy of the commons sort of deal. Also, emotional responses often feel good to indulge in but are straight up wrong.
Law has its downsides, but one of its strong points is acknowledgement that society runs better for everyone if there's a degree of mutual cooperation, even if it puts individuals at a disadvantage (ie. maybe I can zip along a highway at 150 kph just fine, but it's too much a risk if everyone is allowed to do it, so no one is allowed to do it).
>>44044155
>but if not killing somebody because he made one fucking honest mistake makes you Light Side, then the Sith Empire is filled with complete retards.
Right? Best way to play it.
Shit I remember on...I think it was Belmore or something, there was this Sith soldier that got wounded holding the line from a bunch of killer robots and did a damn good job doing it.
But like two of the options were like 'You got wounded so that means you are WEAK and I should kill you!'
So fucking stupid. I'm glad there was an option to patch him up and tell him to report back to the command post. Not even Light side paragon of justice crap, just being a sane, pragmatic person.
>>44044223
I was mostly talking about TOR. With the old movies, the rebels literally win by Plot. Even if it wasn't the idea in the first movie, by the third one that shit was definitely the explanation.
Hell, the first movie was never supposed to become a trilogy and they never bothered to explain how exactly destroying the Death Star was supposed to let the Rebels win in the long run.
>>44041824
>A friend who rps on SWTOR also said it's rife with CG-esque sith
It's less CG and more 'not a frothing retard that thinks they'll die if they stop killing'. It's possible to be a bad person without being a dick about it.
>and evil-bent jedi
No real excuse for this one, just that bioware morality gonna be bioware morality.
>>44043921
The clone wars series makes a good bit for filling in the blanks about Anakins fall. Makes it slower and more reasonable.
But the way Ive always considered the force is that it treats you the waay you treat it. If you use it in anger the more it causes you to be angry. The dark side is no more than the dark side ofthe human psyche. Anger, depression, guilt, manipulation and so on. For example, if one uses the force to be manipulative eventually the force influences you to be manipulative in all your dealings.
Example, The Emperor from the triology uses the force to corrupt and then when he sees luke he must corrupt him. Because he's that far gone. He couldnt just bomb him from orbit. The feeling of successfully corrupting someone is to tempting.
Darth Traya couldve asked the exile to kill all the sith in return for her training. But she lies too much so she must.
Its how vader redeemed himself. He broke the cycle of following the emperor's orders and used the force for love and not depression or guilt.
Its why count dooku wasnt so far fallen. He used his for q cse he believed was right. Against the corrupt jedi order and republic. A "light" sith if you will.
>>44041824
Probably a catch all category for jedi who are tainted by the dark side but not actually evil.
>>44044343
Yea. Those who use it as a means to an end or have a shit load of self-control.
Hell, Luke Skywalker used Sith Lightning too.
>>44043119
I thought Jaesa could've been handled a bit better. LS Sith did have the strongest overall plot in SWTOR, though.Quinn's betrayal was the weakest part. The writers did not pull that off well, and it made me hate Quinn after liking him more than anyone else thus far.
>>44044434
I hear that LS Sith Warrior and Imperial Agent were the strongest story wise in TOR.
And that both the Jedi stories were really weak.
>>44043914
Moral relativism is bad for philosophy but when you paint things as black and white there's a party doing evil for the sake of evil, and hardly any interesting villains thinks that way.
>>44043820
It's corrupting in a sense because it's incredibly easy to lose yourself into the strength of your emotions that amplify the use of the dark side
Okay so how does this Light-Dark divide effect non-Jedi force users?
>>44043858
I remember that. I really liked the SW main story , even though I played him as a Grey.
>>44041824
>is a Light Sith called Dark Lord
WHAT THE FUCK
>>44044478
Yeah. Every storyline that I'd played had at least one or two points that were really good, but overall they suffered from being stretched out and having to fit a model of prologue + 3 chapters + 5 companions.
I think one of my favorite thing about the game was actually the companions. A good chunk of them were straight-up filler, but certain characters (namely Risha, Quinn, Vette, Kira, Gault, and a few others) were just damn fun to talk to and bring along.
The tragedy of SWTOR was its lost potential. It really shouldn't have been an MMO. If it had been more focused, and hadn't practically thrown out the KOTOR games, it could've been something beautiful.
>>44044478
>>44044606
For what it's worth, the Jedi stories end with giant finales that have grand rammifications across the galaxy. The Jedi Consularexposes a giant cell of sleeper agents who answer directly to the Emperor, including the first Jedi Master you meet in the story, while the Jedi Knightkills the Emperor himself.
>>44044434
>I thought Jaesa could've been handled a bit better
It's funny because I basically went about it by going "Hey, both our masters are treacherous lying assholes using us as pawns in a personal vendetta, let's ditch their dusty old asses and go on space adventures together!" and met great success.And yes it was. "Oh, so you've betrayed me and I can't push you out of the airlock (or just send him away) but I have to keep you? SEEMS TOTALLY LEGIT" Or even worse how you can't call absolute bullshit on that your master, Darth Fatass, is about to replace you with a new apprentice even if I've been sassing him in every interaction we've had.
>>44044478
>I hear that LS Sith Warrior and Imperial Agent were the strongest story wise in TOR.
My experience with Imperial Agent was that it was written by a bunch of people that doesn't know how the spy game works in the real world, or even how the spy genre in fiction works while trying to write Shyamalamadingdong tier twists into it.
>>44044638The Knight's killing of the Empire was made null in the Sith Warrior storyline, unfortunately. Gotta maintain that galactic status quo.
Also, I really liked Baras as a villain.
>>44044669*Killing of the Emperor.
Golly gee wiz.
>>44044638
>kills the Emperor himself.
Well that's not really true in the end.
>>44044651
>And yes it was. "Oh, so you've betrayed me and I can't push you out of the airlock (or just send him away) but I have to keep you? SEEMS TOTALLY LEGIT"
Blame the whiny beta testers that didn't want to kill off their husbando for that. I would've totally done that.
>>44044710
>Blame the whiny beta testers that didn't want to kill off their husbando for that. I would've totally done that.
I mean if they didn't want to kill him there should be an option for that AS WELL as having an execute option.
>>44044478
The Jedi Knight story was a clusterfuck of tropes trying to emulate Luke and Obi-wan. You get your own astromech, you go on a boatload of missions fixing shit, even defeat the big-bad of Voss, all of it while trying to take down the Emperor. Jedi Consular is a little better in that it's more focused on Force magic, healing a mind plague at first, then you put together your own flying Fellowship of the Space Ring and use it to beat the Empire on Corellia. But even that feels kinda.. forced and disjointed a lot of the time. Then you have Trooper who's just your typical soldier hijinks, and Smuggler who's comic relief.
Generally, the Imperial storylines are liked better, and I think it's not so much because people like being the bad guy, as it is that there's more room for actual conflict. You can be a puppy-kicking monster if you want, or you can be a reformer trying to end the infighting because that's the pragmatic thing to do. You arent just a bunch of two-dimensional white knights saving the galaxy, you have room for people to be people and go to the grungy dark places.
>>44043963
>At first
>I dont think its quite lawful vs chaotic, sith are after all fairly structured with their own traditions, hierarchies and teachings.
Fucking Retard NO!
>Then
>Its about Collectivism (jedi) vs Individualism (Sith)
AH! Wait.. Yes!
>>44044651I really enjoyed Light Side Jaesa. Having her as a devoted apprenticeand making pragmatic babies with herwas way better than the Inquisitor's equivalent. I basically took the same approach as you. She was a sweet addition to the team.
The SW storyline was awesome because it genuinely made you feel like you were growing stronger and acquiring more power throughout the game. It didn't feel artificial like the Bounty Hunter did. It was... good.
>>44044756
>It didn't feel artificial like the Bounty Hunter did. It was... good.
True, but I gotta admit, playing as a Professional BH, not a pyschopath was a lot of fun.
>End of Act 1 where you have to kill a Jedi Master
>Kill him and his padawan begs me to kill her too.
>"Sorry lady, you aren't on the list. Later!"
>rejected the dark side of the Force in favor of the light.
>these Sith retained their devotion to the Sith as an organization
How are these two statements not contradicting each other?
>>44044606
Quinn was the first time I ever romanced a dude and really enjoyed it. I had to play a female Sith warrior because her voice is incredible. Almost as good as Claudia Black. I wanted to romance the Jedi but I don't think that was an option, so I romanced Quinn and it was cute.
>>44044828
>I wanted to romance the Jedi
Jaesa?
I know you could do it as Dark Side and that Light Side didn't have the option for a time but I keep hearing that you can do as LS now?
Can anyone confirm that?
>>44044756
Meanwhile, the Republic Trooper works his way up to becoming Captain Kickass, leader of Havoc Squad and hero of the Republic who goes on topersonally capture the leader of the entirety of Imperial armed forces (literally all of it) as a POW.
And thenthe final decision of the story was agreeing to a prisoner swap for a number of Republic POWs. The "Dark side" choice was not making the trade.That made me mad.
>>44044809
As far as I remember, the Light SW plotline is basically "The Sith Empire sucks tiny Hutt dick, but the republic is even worse, so let's go on a space adventure, become even more stupidly powerful and try to become boss of the outfit in the long run."
>>44044857
You can only fuck for procreation as LS. I regret making her DS
>Evil Jedi
>Sith Lite®
One thing that absolutely fucking bugs me about this is that Star Wars is a setting where you can have a character that can be very morally gray UNTIL that character becomes attuned to the Force, at which point they become more and more objectively good or evil because the Force is objective in terms of morality, regardless of cultural norms or individual factors.
I can never tell if this was done on purpose, it is the result of incredibly lazy writing.
>>44044862
That's why these games are best played with concepts in mind, not adhering to the Bioware Morality System. If your dude is Captain Kickass the Pragmatic, then you say "Sorry, Dudes, but the winning the war is on the line here." and fly on home.
>>44044862
Should've played DS Trooper, it's 10/10Elara best waifu
>>44044862
>That made me mad.
I did too.
Thankfully, I didn't give a shit about LS or DS points as a Trooper and did what I thought was right as a soldier.
>>44044895
Exactly.
>>44044880
Grey Jedi are a thing you know
>>44044880
considering Lucas, very very lazy writing.
>>44044880
Star Wars was a Fariy Tale. It always has been. All those fucking horrible explanations have been spaced, with the rest of the EU.
That leaves us with what the Movies (and Clone Wars/Rebels) show us, and so far nothing really speaks against Force Users sitting on the entire spectrum. Hell, even Yoda himself is far from being Space Jesus.
>>44044922
Yeah but good luck doing those right, 9 tines out of 10 they end up picking a side anyway
>>44044880
Lucas didn't want moral greyness.
>>44044756
>I basically took the same approach as you. She was a sweet addition to the team
She never really meshed well with the way I played, but she fit well among the other companions. If I remember right, I preferred having Vette along and then later, HK-51
>The SW storyline was awesome because it genuinely made you feel like you were growing stronger and acquiring more power throughout the game. It didn't feel artificial like the Bounty Hunter did. It was... good.
Somewhat, yeah. I wouldn't quite praise it that high, but it has some definately good ideas that are executed kinda poorly. Overall, it was pretty enjoyable. I did find it sad that the honorable as fuck Sith Warrior you can defeat on Nal Hutta wasn't a companion or affects the story more if you spare him.
>>44044963
Jolee Bindo identified as Gray but was functionally Light. He simply didn't agree with all of Jedi doctrine.
>>44044971
Lucas also said that Han had to shoot second because he's a hero, and heroes don't shoot people first.
Even though he clearly is a complete dickbag at that point of the story and only BECOMES a hero over the movies.
Christ, I'm fairly okay with editing movies, especially if it's to touch them up and make them look better, thirty years down the line, but that shit makes me angry.
>>44044902Worst part of getting promoted is that she doesn't call you leftenant anymore
>>44045004
Pretty sure he meant grey in the political sense of 'no longer a member of the order', rather than 'I think I know the force better than those stodgy assholes'
>>44045038
It's why an easy way to tell who is a big enough fan of the series is to ask out of the blue, "Who shot first?" They will instantly know what you're talking about.
>all this talk about SWTOR
>still barely started KOTOR 1
This sucks.
>>44044278
>never bothered to explain how exactly destroying the Death Star was supposed to let the Rebels win in the long run.
Because it wasn't? I don't know why you think it was supposed to? Destroying the deathstar is a big victory for the rebellion, but no where is it suggested it's anything more than a single victorious battle in a long war. if the deathstar hadn't been destroyed it would have given the empire an even even bigger advantage in the war going froward but it's never presented as being some definite war ending battle.
>>44044312
This is why there needs to be more interesting people given lightsabers.
Either robots, more outlandishly alien jedi/sith, or normal folks playing around with things they shouldn't.
>>44045173
Go play it. Its solid.Then get the restored content mod for Kotor 2 and do a dual blasters playthrough.
>>44045174
And yet it's the battle the entire galactic calendar is designed around. Literally, everything is either BBY (before the Battle of Yavin) or ABY (after the Battle of Yavin).
>>44045174
Mabie the empire went bankrupt
>>44044278
>and they never bothered to explain how exactly destroying the Death Star was supposed to let the Rebels win in the long run.
Uh. I don't know if you were watching the same movie as the rest of us, but the Death Star was literally poised to destroy the Rebel's headquarters at the time of its destruction. It let the Rebels win in the long run because they didn't get their asses blown up.
>>44045207
Even if it didn't singlehandedly win the war, it was still a big win that future people would annoy future historians with by looking back at and going "that was the beginning of the end of the empire"
>>44045193
Normal people just slice their own faces off and even robots can't do a whole lot more than go Greivous-Blender-Style.
Blasters are what really need to be pushed. Where my Blaster Jedi at?
The Force is very much a Buddhist thing; attachment leads to suffering, whereas detachment leads to freedom from suffering. Jedi represent detachment, their compassion stemming chiefly from an acceptance of unity of all things. Those who turn to the Dark Side are those bound to worldly things.
This doesn't make them innately "evil", but it does make them passionate and obsessive. The supposedly dark aspects of the Force come from an inability to let go.
Does this make them innately evil? Of course not; someone who uses their powers to fight for a cause is at least tinged with the Dark Side, regardless of the cause itself. It just tends to follow that, when that cause is threatened, they react strongly, since their passions are on a feedback loop.
Sith aren't innately evil, they're just obsessive assholes who believe the ends justify the means. The Jedi, meanwhile, can come across as unconcerned and apathetic because they'll refuse to be a part of causes that don't fall into line with their view of the enlightened path.
>>44045207
Pretty sure those are used more by fans/writers then in universe. I believe in universe it's based on The treaty of Coruscant for year keeping
>>44045438
In the Old Republic era, it's based on the Treaty of Coruscant. In the New Republic era, it's based on the Battle of Yavin.
>>44041824
That's the sort of thing that makes me glad the EU got wiped out. And no, at this point shades of grey has been so overdone that clearly defined sides of good and evil are now fresh and exciting to me.
>>44044862
>>44044895
>>44044907
Yeah, one of the big flaws with bioware style morality points is that it's really, really jarring when it doesn't agree with your own morality. Which is very likely to happen unless the story is black and white to a childish degree. You do what you think is right in a complex situation and then bioware calls you a bad person.
A much better way is to simply let the player make decisions, and then show the consequences of those decisions, and then let us decide for ourselves if what we did was ultimately for the greater good or not.
Simply TELLING the player that what they've done is good or evil as opposed to SHOWING them the consequences of their actions is just clearly a worse option.
What's extra fun is bioware morality combined with unclear conversation options.
Like on my inquisitor, on Nar Shaddaa you get to start up your own cult and stuff. So I'm getting to look at my new cult headquarters and stuff, and decide I want the grand tour, so I pick the conversation option asking for a look around.
I am rather confused when the DARK SIDE POINTS indicator pops up, until the conversation actually goes through and it turns out I was propositioning my female cult leader for some sex.
I mean, I probably would have done it anyway, but I'd liked to have known about it in advance.
>>44045381
Eh but it would be interesting.
>>44045207
First of all, that shit is not in the film, and the film is what we're talking about. This post >>44044278 is incorrectly suggesting that the first film stated the battle was a war ending victory, and complaining that it's never explained why that is so within the film, and I am merely pointing out the mistake. It is never stated within the first star wars film that destroying the death star will end the war. That post is demanding an explanation for something that was never said.
Secondly, the destruction of the first deathstar was the first great victory for the rebel alliance. As >>44045356 says, even if it's not the battle that ended the war it's still a very important and notable battle.
And of course, the real reason that it's used as the basis for the calendar is non-diegetic.
>>44045588
What I'd like to see is for Bioware to actually embrace their Wheel Conversation System. Instead of four more or less clear options, they should just go with
[YES] [NO] [ASSHOLE RESPONSE] [SEX]
Or similar, so you know exactly WHAT you are going to get, but now HOW.
>>44044504
look up dathomir's inhabitants
>>44045318
Yes, this. Destroying the first deathstar doesn't win the war, it just stops the rebels from immediately losing it.
>>44045588
Jesus Christ. Did you offer her refreshment with the "glass her" option, too?
>>44045356
>I am now imagining a thread on Space /tg/, a long time ago, in a far away galaxy
>Yeah, but looking back, the moment they blew up the Deathstar was the beginning of the end of the empire
>No, actually, the Empire was already practically finished at that point. It was completely overstretched, the core worlds were decadent and too dependant on import and most of the military funding went to projects that were complete pipe dreams. The actual beginning of the end was seven years prior, during the droid strikes on Yencar-II, when the Empire implemented an additional tax on joint lubricant...
>>44045827
Shit, I did this in the wolf among us
>>44045461
honestly what always gets me is that half the time "shades of grey" tends to just get translated into either "everyone is an asshole all the time" or "surprise! the good guys are actualy the corrupt evil ones, 'cuse they're discriminating against the puppy eating baby murderers"
>Being forced to take companions you don't wantwe /tor/ now
>>44045969
BUTTHURT ZAKULIANS
>Light Sith
>SWTOR
Can I just say that as somebody who played a "lightside" inquisitor, I fucking loved the story? I was still very much an evil dickbag, but I was also apparently the only guy around who knew how to actually run a competant power structure that wouldn't stab itself in the back or implode.The end of the 50 storyline was basically just "Dude I know you're completely right, and we need to change, but you need to realize that by doing this you're ruining LITERALLY EVERYTHING FOREVER. And if you wont stop I'm going to taze your ass.
Honestly, that one anon had it right when he said it'd have been way better as a single player game. Or like, multiple character-centric games for each of the classes. The writing was pretty solid and fun.
>>44044482
Considering there's a rationalization and justification for everything, anyone being evil simply to be evil is arguably suffering from total psychosis or neurosis.
That's pretty interesting. What made them crazy? How deep into evil do they sink and how much corruption or damage do they cause with their actions? At the end of the day, when the heroes finally win and the fight is finally over, and the only explanation for all the destruction is, "I dunno, cuz I wanted to", you're left unfulfilled and confused. Because you need a justification to make it okay to have fought them in the first place, because you need a target beyond their evil to make the world make sense. And you don't have any, and you have no idea how to make that okay. You run into the same problem America is facing with "terrorism" and gun crime right now. How do we rationalize this and justify our actions when these people, more often than not, are just psychos? You refuse to accept that it's interesting because you can't make sense of it, and that's no fun because there's no sense of achievement for the hero-worshiper.
The only reason you don't think that's interesting is because the dark knight ruined the image of insanity with "Why so serious?".
>>44045434
This is a great interpretation that makes a ton of sense. And you're right that the Buddhist concept of attachment/detachment is a big inspiration.
Unfortunately, this isn't reflected in the films very well. The idea of falling to the dark side is very much presented as some kind of instant evil almost possession like event. Of course, we have the example of Anakin slaughtering children at the drop of a hat, and then killing his wife, and then attempting to kill his best friend. But even in the OT it's very strongly suggested that if Luke draws on the power of the dark side to give him the strength he needs to kill his father, he'll immediately join the emperor's side. This strongly suggests that there's more to the dark side than just having trouble letting go.
Although, there is one possible explanation that would preserve your interpretation, although it's very clearly something that is never stated as being the case. It could be that this possession like effect of the dark side is not actually merely the result of giving into attachment, but is the result of the emperor's influence. He somehow uses the dark side to mind control people. Give into your attachments enough and snap! You become his puppet. This, of course, can only apply to those two examples, any other time in the EU that someone dramatically falls to the dark side in the same lighting fast manner without the emperor's involvement contradict this theory. Though since they've just wiped the EU maybe it's still got a chance in the new canon.
Personally, I find that without the assumption that the emperor has some ability to control people through the dark side, ROTJ makes considerably less sense. Otherwise there's no reason for the emperor to not assume that Luke will kill Vader and then turn around and kill him too. Even if Luke falls to the dark side there's no reason for him not to kill the emperor.
>>44046310
Give us a good example of that, then.
>>44042970
Former SWTOR Sith Warrior player here.
Went lightside, but back then I just saw it as "Not being a retarded cunt." Didn't realize at the time that being an OK guy off the clock would trigger OP.
>>44041824
There were others, at least one canon onebecause EU is canon, not that Disneyverse BS no matter how hard Disney tries to say otherwise{/spoiler]. I think it was... Vergere, maybe? Someone was telling the story of one to Jacen Solo. Or maybe he was telling it. It's been a while. I think I remember something about miners. Blast. Sorry, I used to know this example better. But that narrows it down to the series where theykill off Jacen Solo.
>>44046844
>EU
>Canon ever
And I say good riddance.
>>44041824
Eh, I can see a few Sith subscribing to the light side, given how much the politics and beurocracy of the Jedi Order there's plenty of other selfless and benevolent things to focus on, such as passion, love, nationalism in the "for the people" sense, the general nature it takes to be a manic self-sacrificing bootlicker the Sith Lords expect you to act like. You're just sincere about it, instead of plotting to stab them in the back. Yet this was before the rule of two, so it can still function.
Not to mention sparing people out of maintaining and utilization of resources. Why destroy that which could be of use to you? To make a point? Who are you making that point to if anyone to learn from it is dead.
Essentially your Mace Windu but just on the other side: someone who uses passion torwards ends benefiting the whole and not the self.
>>44046509
Not that anon, and I kind of think that entire post sucked, but in the comics, when the Riddler realized he really needed help and turned himself in to Arkham, I felt sad for him.
>>44041824
>WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?
Uh, the counterpart to a Dark Jedi, obviously.
Duh.
I loved that part in the SW storyline whereyou set up a meeting with Jaesa but Nomen Karr sends goons to dispatch you instead. If you were LS you got to seriously mess with their heads. You could even quote the Jedi code at them and rebuke them for being so eager to fight you.
I loved moments like that in the story.
>>44048471
Oh yeah, out-jediing the Jedi and making them fall to the Dark Side by sheer virtue of pointing out their hipocrisy was HILARIOUS.
>>44048471
>Go ahead Jaesa, use your power on me and your Master. I've got nothing to hide.
>>44048519
HNNGH, that moment was incredibly based too.
>Showing total emotional restraint while beating Karr and Jaesa into the dirt
>>44041824
>Does everything have to have the 'shades of grey' treatment? Is good and evil a boring concept?
I'm with you man. The orig-trig was a fantastic example of black-white formula done well, and the prequels were an excellent example of ham-handed 14-year-old-tier attempts at being "shades of grey edgy" winding up as trite schlock.
Until the prequels, the term "sith" didn't exist outside of rough-draft-script side dialogue that Spielberg made sure was left on the cutting room floor. If you only take the orig trig as canon, then there are Force users who follow the light side, and there are force users who follow the dark side. Both are extremely rare, and some of them were organized into knight-like orders called "jedi," who were just as susceptible to swinging one way or the other as the next guy.
That star-wars works much better and fits better both logically and narrative.
There are light Jedi
There are dark Jedi
>>44043461
>Image
Just sounds like a bitch way to have other people limit your passion.
It's kind of like being a nice north Korean soldier.
Your bosses are cunts but that doesn't mean you have to be.
>>44043461
Very, very related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7XVcqZodAM
>>44043530
>The Sith Code itself was a retcon.
The Sith were a retcon. Originally, Vader was just an evil Jedi.
Hell, if you look at Palpy's dialogue, it's not remotely implied that he was a Jedi at any point either. The whole lightsaber thing was Vader's schtick.
>>44053242
>The Sith were a retcon. Originally, Vader was just an evil Jedi.
This. I was starting to feel like I was the only one still seeing it. Glad there are still others who won't accept Lucas' fanfic retcons just because he owned the merchandising rights to the original work at the time he wrote them.
>>44043845
>"A Jedi deadens himself, they deny passion and love, they remove all that makes them like the rest of us and still seek to tell us how to live our lives'
Wasn't Luke's revived Order supposed to fix all this shit?
There's a reason Obi-Wan never mentioned all the bad shit the old Order did. He wanted Luke to reconstruct the Jedi as they SHOULD have been, not as they were.
>>44043921
>being a jedi automatically makes you a super nice, awesome, righteous, supreme gentlemen.
>shown in the movies all the time
I don't remember a single Jedi like this.
One of the few things SWTOR did right actually is the "light side sith warrior". Because as other anons said, he was still a "villain" but he was competent. He was more like the "best the empire had" rather than a retard with a murderboner. Charismatic and persuasive but sufficiently evil/cruel if need be, remember your options were usually either: Kill the fucker right infront of you, or let him toil forever as a slave on a mining prison.
Overall that was the only story I loved because of the VA's excellent delivery of some very good lines, like telling 2 "stick up my ass" jedi to fuck off, because I'm not going to attack them and will just walk by them to get Jaina. After which the 2 retards started to argue whether or not they should attack a man who is unwilling to fight, so a 2 on 1 became a 1 on 1, where one of the jedi watched his comrade get savagely beaten.
>>44053368
Obi wan is pretty gentlemanly.
>>44053351
Luke's order was actually more functional than the old order, also it had way less strict rules. Overall it had a lot nicer feel to it, where the jedi were a bunch of guys just trying to help. Unfortunately this also bit them in the ass as everyone started to think the Jedi are just a bunch of pushovers with all of their mystical superstitions gone
>All these people praising the stories in TOR
So is TOR worth getting just for the singleplayer experience then? I'm not remotely interested in the MMO aspect, but if it makes for a decent enough RPG on its own...
>>44053441
He also fucked up over and over, like every other character in the prequels (except Palpatine, for whom everything in every movie was JUST AS PLANNED).
>>44053523
if you are going to do the free to play and be casual, don't
i started as a casual plyer on the ftp and took me a solid 2 weeks to get off korriban. the xp and credit gimp that they give, even to preferred players, if fucking ridiclious.
if you really want to play and not waste your time, sub for a small ammount of time and get the stories out of the way that you want, then dick around for the rest of your time if you are not going to be a monthly sub
>>44053590
>You have to play for weeks to get at the singleplayer without a monthly subscription
Right, fuck it then.
>>44053523
it really isn't. The story is "meh" if you look at it as a whole, it has some truly great moments, and incredibly shitty moments as well.
Gameplay wise its your run of the mill WoW clone where you basically press the keys on your keyboard in sequence until either the enemy runs out of hp or you do.
>>44053607
>implying the anon who wrote this is not a filthy casual
though he has some points, later on the grind becomes unbearable, coupled with the incredibly boring landscape of planets like hoth and tattooine.
But you can easily get off the starting planet within a day, maybe even get off the 2nd one as well if you aren't incredibly shit
>>44053661
>implying that implied that i was a casual
i said that if you only do ftp, not subbed, the gimp is beyond tiedious. the moment that you sub, you can jump from 10 to 15 in an hour if you have a few quests to get done
im just saying that it isn't worth doing ftp to start, only after you get though all the content that you want to play
>>44041824
>Is good and evil a boring concept?
Us vs Them is for idiots.
>>44053763
>implying that... fuck it
so did I, never paid a single penny for the game and still did got off Dromund Kass in a day.
But you are right in that the gimp is real.
Later on it gets worse though... much worse
>>44043963
>Its about Collectivism (jedi) vs Individualism (Sith)
That is good vs evil.
>>44041973
>actually ends up being a lot more humane
But that is wrong you evil shit.
>>44053824
>only after getting off Dromund Kass
bitch please, 38 was when i finally decided to sub. only got that high because i caved and bought the eradicator armor
>>44053843
>Collectivism is good and Individualism is evil
I would like to direct you to China.
>>44041824
There are 2 absolutes and a spectrum in between why is that so fucking hard for people to understand
>>44053843
>Individualism is evil
I wish I could hate you to death.
>>44053843
>Mfw there are people that actually believe this
>Mfw there are people that literally think a system where there's a negative correlation between personal contribution and personal reward isn't broken
>Mfw people like you think it's completely normal to work yourself to death your entire life so you can enjoy the privilege of making someone else's fortune for them while they go and enjoy their life
You're making the 1% proud, anon.
>>44043845
>They know that if a force sensitive listens to his emotions he eventually goes psycho nuts, which is why all Sith are murderous assholes, The power corrupts.
I don't understand the connection.
Emotions = evil, evil, evil, because evil and for the sake of evil?
>>44044259
>Shit I remember on...I think it was Belmore or something, there was this Sith soldier that got wounded holding the line from a bunch of killer robots and did a damn good job doing it.
>But like two of the options were like 'You got wounded so that means you are WEAK and I should kill you!'
>So fucking stupid. I'm glad there was an option to patch him up and tell him to report back to the command post. Not even Light side paragon of justice crap, just being a sane, pragmatic person.
I think the thing to consider is thatwhile a person might be alinged with the jedi or the sith, there's still that individual's personality and character flaws/traits to take into account.
There MIGHT be the pragmatic sith, the sane sith.
And then there's going to be one that's an absolute cunt.
You might find a Jedi that's resourceful and cunning, pickpocketing the occasional door-key or greasing a palm with a bribe to get their righteous mission done.
And then you'll have a simpering dickwad paladin that can't improvise in a pinch.
Duality within duality.
>>44054170
Use the force.
>>44054170
>I wish I could hate you to death.
Thanks for making my point.
>>44054374
>it's completely normal to work yourself to death your entire life so you can enjoy the privilege of making someone else's fortune for them while they go and enjoy their life
This is what the individuals want their slaves to think.
>>44046675
>Went lightside, but back then I just saw it as "Not being a retarded cunt."
Same for me. I like playing a guy that views the normal shenanigans as most Sith just being Chaotic Stupid because it's the traditional thing to do. Being pragmatic wins out over everything.
>>44044223
>Under equipped untrained rebels going up against the well supplied huge empire"
Now where have I heard that before...
>>44053590
>i started as a casual plyer on the ftp and took me a solid 2 weeks to get off korriban
Man you what? Is casual player code for 'play maybe an hour a week' or something? Also how long ago was this, the recent 4.0 update streamlined the fuck out of the 1-50 leveling process, now all you need to do to stay ahead of the leveling curve is run the class and planet story missions (which are helpfully colored purple instead of the normal yellow), instead of all the COLLECT 12 SPACE BEAR ASSES crap.
>>44055300
>Foreign funded, equipped, and trained rebels going up against the well supplied huge empire currently at war with an equally well supplied huge empire, who is fighting on behalf of said rebels
FTFY senpai
>>44051433
And what kind of name is "the clone wars" for a war where only one side used clones? Plus there was only one war anyway! If anything it would've been called "the clone-droid war" if the original conception of the clone war was anything like what we actually got.
>>44044902
As someone who played DS trooper up till lv 50 for the sake of making an inquisitor of the race i wanted to play as, I have to respectfully tell you to shove your opinion up your dickhole.
I went in being gleeful about becoming major war crimes, but in the later parts of my playthrough, especially in the third and late second chapters, there is too much retarded shit going on for darkside for me to stand.
I did enjoy shooting a senator in the middle of a meeting though. Made up fro spending the last few levels being drug around by the dick by another senator on the last planet.She really is the best waifu and I'm pissed I can't dyke it out with her.
>>44055300
The rebel army forced the British to retreat from Boston with zero outside support and destroyed an entire army group at Saratoga with near zero support, the battle which for all practical purposes settled the war.
They then went on to win or stalemate three other major battles with minimal support before what was very much a combined arms action at Yorktown.
That's a vastly better record than the Afgans or Vietnamese achieved against the superpowers.
I dig that you get the option to do light and dark side shit in SWTOR though.
Mostly for the panicked confusion from NPCs when you suddenly show them mercy on your Sith Inquisitor.
>>44055573
You're just going to ignore the other war that the British has to sustain simultaneously?
>>44055555
I agree, and the clones in the clone wars was the republic army, so at least you name a war after the guy you fight against, not from your own soldiers. So it should be named droid war, or war on the separatists.
>>44044312
Damn John de Lancie is good with a lightsword.
>>44055594
Dammit now I'm going to have to make another inquisitor as the nicest motherfucker on the block as I've already been making a sourcery who is an evil cunt.
Guess I'll make #2 an assassin.
>>44054374
>Mfw people like you think it's completely normal to work yourself to death your entire life so you can enjoy the privilege of making someone else's fortune for them while they go and enjoy their life
That's not collectivism. That whole 1% thing you're talking about? very clearly the result of individualism. You stupid, strawmaninng piece of shit.
>>44053590
>i started as a casual plyer on the ftp and took me a solid 2 weeks to get off korriban. the xp and credit gimp that they give, even to preferred players, if fucking ridiclious.
u focking wot. I did that shit in a couple of hours and I played F2P.
>>44043066
Well goerge is legit autistic, guess it makes sense his poor understanding of emotions means he thinks emotions are bad like most spergs.
>>44055827
Wow, you are one meme-spouting, ignorant shit, aren't you.
Go play in traffic billy, this website is for grown-ups.
>>44053242
Anon, the word Sith, and Vader being a/the Lord of the Sith, first appeared in the ANH novelization. Which came out six months before the movie did.1
>>44041848
>>44041858
>>44041998
>>44042711
So to make good vs evil more interesting you just make everyone good and evil at the same time?
That doesn't make any sense nor is it very interesting.
Maybe a well intentioned Sith who fights against the oppressive Jedi regime to free people's emotions, like a lightsaber wielding Kevin Bacon, but c'mon there is nothing exciting about light side sith and dark side jedi.
>>44041824
Allow me to summarise Star Wars morality
>That's obviously a good force user because the lightsabers are blue.
>>44046675
>"Not being a retarded cunt."
The majority of dark side choices and the fact Steve Blum voiced one of the henchmen were the main factors behind me going back to playing my Trooper after trying a Sorcerer.
>>44055594
Same here. And I was playing mine as just a cruel and pragmatic Imperial patriot.
He still freaked out NPCs occasionally.
>>44041824
I made a Sith warrior who tended to go with the light side options, though I did throw in a dark side when it made sense to do so. He was albino, had an afro and was as fat as the character creator would let me make him. He was the terror known as DarthMarshmallow
>>44053242
>>44053308
False. Even before the names jedi and sith were chosen, there were still good/evil orders of magic warriors, ashlai (?) and bogan.
The only retcon was that lightsabers were originally going to be used by everyone.
>>44041824
Star wars sucks.
>>44041824
Jedi and Sith are difference force-using traditions, so it makes sense to me that a light-user trained with sith techniques would be different from just a jedi, the same way that a dark-side jedi isn't the same as a normal sith.
Each tradition is suited to one side or the other, so they're not likely to come into existence, but it doesn't seem like it'd be impossible for someone inducted into the force and trained with sith methods could go light side.
Like, the nightwitches of dathomir were primarily dark side users, but there ended up being light side ones.
LS/Neutral Sith Warrior was so satisfying. Really made you feel like you were a badass rolling around sorting out the Empire's problems and leaving it stronger in your wake, while being somewhat humane about it.
>when Jaesa uses her magic power bullshit to see inside you and Nomen Karr, only to see that you are in control and he is raging like fuck.
>>44056107
>So to make good vs evil more interesting you just make everyone good and evil at the same time?
What? No. Stop assuming things.
I don't see them as good vs evil. Count Dooku, in the movies was a gentleman and tried to speak reason to the jedi, but the jedi went NUUU U SITH and full retarded themselves to death.
Maybe most sith are evil, but it doesn't follow that jedi are "good," except in the EU, which cast jedi as super nice and kind types instead of deceitful, unfeeling manipulators, like the movies.
In the EU dark jedi were a thing since fucking forever.
>>44056249
>balmorra
>torture science man to help you
>kill officer's son for being a cheeky cunt
>kill officer for being mad about it
>lets science man go after this
Had to convince him that this wasn't some trick and almost had to threaten him to go be free.
>>44044226
Well, you can train as many juggies and inquisitors as you want, as long as you don't teach them the good stuff or give them a name.
It is about the Sith Empire, not the Sith as a cult or teaching.
And you can be a light-sided member of the Sith Empire, it's not that weird. It's practically illegal, but it's not that odd.
>>44055573
>Simultaneously
>Suffren in India
>French and Spanish naval pressure in India and the Caribbean
>Fourth Anglo-Dutch War
>Three countries which put together dwarf the 18th century british empire against the british empire
Also
>Vietnam
>where the USAF couldn't even secure air superiority
Despite what the pentagon says, not only did we lose land engagements, but the airforce was getting wrecked by Vietnamese air defences and even their airforce did better, man for man, than ours. We literally threw bodies at that part of the war.
>>44056370
It's more suicidal than illegal.
Assuming you light side within earshot of dark side inclined sith. Which is basically the equivalent of pole dancing with a lightning rod in full plate during a thunderstorm whilst blaspheming every deity remotely related to lightning .
>>44045759
Isn't that pretty much FO4's dialogue choices, which were absolutely terrible?
>>44056408
Twoflower?
>>44056453
FO4 was "Yes", "Sarcastic yes", "Yes, but later" and "SO YOU FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT WITH YOUR VOICE ON GALAXY NEWS RADIO?"
>>44056476
You forgot "Hate Newspapers."
>>44056457
I'm pretty sure he isn't the origin of the line. But I only watched the movie of the book and i heard it over the footage of one wizard murdering another..
>>44056476
>>44056487
I would prefer
>I didn't ask for this
>>44053843
>>44056476
It was more "Nice Answer" "Sarcastic asshat answer" "mean answer' and maybe a "question" depending on the conversation
>>44055300
The fuck is with those spears
>>44043621
>As the core of being a Sith is being so afraid of death you'd do ANYTHING to avoid it.
This is basically my DnD character.
>>44043621
>As the core of being a Sith is being so afraid of death you'd do ANYTHING to avoid it.
What? Then why all the fighting?
>>44058647
Fight or be killed
>>44041824
Dude, the entire extended universe of star wars is a fucking mess and a complete turd to boot. A shining example of the legend being better than the reality. Even in the original trilogy the jedi plot line was the weakest part of the story.
>>44041848
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE JEDI ARE EVIL
Once upon a time, in a decade far far away before Star Wars turned into a brand instead of a movie, there was literally no such thing as a Sith, Darth Vader's name was Darth Vader (changed from Anakin Skywalker to hide his identity as a former good guy), only Jedi used lightsabers, and the Emperor was just an evil wizard.
Introducing the Sith into canon annihilated this series.
Pretty much every time a sith lays down a justification for the philosophy they say that the purpose of power is to impose your will on the galaxy and do whatever you want.
Some people just want to not be huge cunts.
>>44058749
m8, Darth Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith from right away.
>>44058749
>of all the bad things about the EU and prequels
>choosing the Sith
>>44058755
So, muh spooks
>>44058330
They're spontoons. Basically short pikes. Once every chucklefuck switched to muskets, they were mostly used by officers for signalling. Still good for stabbing bears and shit, though.
>>44058782
No he wasn't. Watch the Original Trilogy. They don't use the word "Sith" even once.
Hell, when they first used "Sith" it was EU material that had nothing to do with Jedi at all.
>>44055784
Why would you want to pay that garbage storyline a second time?
>>44058749
That time was six months before the first movie was released, I take?
>>44041824
>Is good and evil a boring concept?
yes
>>44059046
Sith are mentioned in the original novel that was published before the movie AND he's called a Sith in the bloody script.
>>44059298
He's called a "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the novelization, sure. There were EU books that explained this as him conquering an alien culture CALLED "Sith" after becoming an evil Jedi.
Sith clearly were not originally intended as an evil counterpart to the Jedi or that would never have been a thing.
>>44045883
"Moral dilemmas" and "shades of grey" are very good when done right, but very easy to do badly.
Ideally, both sides of the issue can seem legitimately good from a certain point of view (yes, Obi-Wan, I know), or could have good or bad consequences; either choice could be a "good" one, or at least justifiable, so it's hard to choose between them.
Instead, it often ends up being a situation where choices are obviously "good" or "bad" but people pick the "bad" choices for stupid or unspecified reasons.
>>44043780
>But there's something lost with that descriptor. A sense of grandeur, I suppose.
I'd describe it as a sense of objective reality. The Force ~is~ a certain way. The Jedi think it works like ~this~, the Sith think it works like ~this~, other Force-using traditions think it works like ~this~... some perspectives and belief systems are closer to the truth than others, but that doesn't change the fact that there ~is~ a truth, even if we don't truly understand what it is. It doesn't work that way because they believe it does, they believe it works a certain way because that's what their observations, ponderings, and ESP seem to be hinting at.
That's why the Jedi oppose the Dark Side. They believe that using the Force in certain ways will twist a person's mind and lead them to act in dangerous ways, and they have a significant amount of evidence that this is the case.
To have another tradition come along, who "see the Force differently" and can therefore use Dark Side abilities without being corrupted, simply because they've ~decided~ they can... makes the Force seem more arbitrary and less "real". It makes the Force less like something that actually exists in-universe.
>>44056040
There were books before the movie? I thought all the books and expanded thingie came after the movies
>>44059906
>To have another tradition come along, who "see the Force differently" and can therefore use Dark Side abilities without being corrupted, simply because they've ~decided~ they can... makes the Force seem more arbitrary and less "real". It makes the Force less like something that actually exists in-universe.
Maybe, by approaching it from a different angle, they don't use those powers in a way that taps into the corrupting influence of the Dark Side? They'd probably be less powerful than a guy throwing proper Sith Lightning around, but if it comes with the benefit of not becoming murderously insane...
The Jedi are pretty clear that the Dark Side and its corruption comes from tapping into the Force using your anger, your hate, or other hostile/negative emotions.
>>44041824
>SWTOR EU worldbuilding
Don't worry about it. It's noncanon shit.
>>44059148
Mild Amusement? I don't know.
Post your dudes and dudettes.
>>44041913
>Legends
>Non-canon
Well maybe I refuse to accept the NEW canon, huh?Disney literally murdered my childhood
>>44061574
>>44061720
>>44061754
>>44061925
Literally pallate-swapped
>>44061950
And my agent took far longer to get a screenshot of than she had business to, for some reason neither the ingame screenshot key nor the windows-level printscreen was working, had to bust out the snipping tool.
Blasted ciphers.
>>44061626
>I dunt liek it so not care
You can disregard the canon all you like. It's still there.
>>44061574
I got sand in my robes, no good companionship and nobody to lightning to make it stop.
>>44043921
I'm currently in an EotE/AoR/FaD group as the only (ex) Jedi in the party. He's Corellian, so they have some dispensation when it comes to love/marriage/etc.
He survived the Clone Wars and went into hiding on Nar Shaddaa, which is where the party came across him. He doesn't believe in the teaching of the Jedi, but does believe in the Force as a thing to guide him.
He has spent a long time thinking about it and knows that the Jedi were ineffectual symbols of a time where people needed guidance, whereas now the Empire's law makes people even more independent and unwilling to follow bullshit from people who spout nonsense.
He's also a bit of a drinker and sort of innocent flirt, as he still maintains a sense of selflessness regarding letting people get caught up with him (as they will likely be used against him/killed).
He is also very anti-Empire, for a number of reasons, and doesn't hesitate to kill the ones he can. However he's not stupid enough to just lightsaber in public, or attack Imperials in the open.
So it's an interesting character to play. He's becoming the charming face of the party due to having incredible luck with 1 yellow dice and 2 green against fuck loads of red.
Managed to charm 2 Hutts at once on one check, and an ISB agent on another with Triumph.
He's also convinced a Jedi/Sith hating assassin not to kill him (for the time being) and they are slowly becoming friends, by the looks of it.
>>44060034
Novelizations tend to be made concurrently with a film, made to grant a depth to the story that can't be explored in the film itself. (Those that aren't just attempts to make more money by printing the story again in novel form, at least.)
It's not uncommon for a movie's novelization to come out briefly before the movie itself, as a way to generate hype for a film with (relative) little investment (in terms of movie costs).
This can lead to interesting "might have been" scenarios. For instance, in case the first movie didn't do well, George had Alan Dean Foster write a book titled "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", to serve as a potential sequel (instead of Empire Strikes Back). When Star Wars DID do well, the novel became the first Expanded Universe work, detailing an adventure between Luke and Leia between the two films.
This novel, written as it was before anyone started writing Empire, therefore had no idea that Luke and Leia were siblings (or who their father was), because no one else did at the time. So, there's a...regrettable amount of sexual tension between the two.
There's some fun stuff to note about Splinter of the Mind's Eye (Luke defeats Vader in almost the same way Vader defeats Luke in Empire, except on a swamp planet) and some awkward stuff. (At one point, Luke decides to slap Leia and pretend she's his slave, to fool Imperials, without consulting her. Her response is to get into a playful mud fight with him later.)
But yes, the Expanded universe started before the first movie hit theaters, and had a full novel a year after the first movie.
>>44041824
GREY MORALITY IS THE FUTURE OF FICTION AND IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN READ BABY BOOKS AND LEAVE THE INTELLIGENT FICTION TO US
>>44063915
>Star Wars comes out in a week and this dumbass is still posting
>>44063915
>TRANS MORALITY IS THE FUTURE OF FICTION AND IF YOU CANT HANDLE IT THEN READ CISHET BOOKS AND LEAVE THE INTELLIGENT FICTION TO US
>>44061626
It had to go, anon. At least now we have the hope that something better may follow. There were gems in there, but most of it was irredeemable shit.
>>44063915
>distain for "The Wheel of Time"
Did I make a mistake, am I on /tv/ instead of /tg/? Yes of course there can be good sith, the light and dark side only concern morality in a superficial sense. It's not as literally black and white as the way George Lucas thinks it is.
>>44065712
There are rulebooks for SW tabletop games, so I guess one can argue that the thread is largely about how the rp in a SW game.
>>44055866
Epic response, kid.
How about refuting his argument?
Can't? Then accept your crushing defeat and fuck off. :)
>>44058701
Thats a fair statement, No love, No hate, No attachment its creepy as fuck
>>44066872
>them buddhists be creepy mofos
>>44066872
Still the sith with their raging torturemurderboners aren't much better. Plus all that hate can't be good for you.
Maybe the sane sith and the grey jedi are the only ones we can trust.
>>44041824
Strikes me as the sort of decision that began as a mechanical reality that then had to be justified in-universe. That is, "we gave you the ability to play a Sith, but also the ability to make light/dark choices, ergo we need to design around the possibility of Sith players who choose the light side primarily"
>>44067071
>Plus all that hate can't be good for you.
MY DRIVING PASSION IS RIGHTEOUS FURY, WHELP.
>>44041824
Technically, /being/ a Sith isn't evil, but most non-evil Sith either become evil or die very, very shortly after becoming Sith: their whole shtick is either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villian.
>>44041824
>"strengthening themselves with compassion and love"
SIGN ME THE FUCK UP, this sounds sounds like some magical girl shit!
Fighting evil by moonlight
Winning love by daylight
Never running from a real fight!
She is the one named
Sith Lord Moon!
>>44041824
>Does everything have to have the 'shades of grey' treatment? Is good and evil a boring concept?
nah, just the rare far terminus. Think of it like a bell curve - most people are morally neutral, it's the fringes where we get the Hitlers and Mr. Rogers and they are very few and far between.
>>44043847
Not sith but the dark side of the force isn't necessarily evil, the gray knights proved this by being able to use both sides of the force without consequence.
Granted they were tree hugging fucking hippies.
>>44067688
Going all the way back to the WEG sourcebooks, but they even say that the dark side isn't evil in and of itself, but it IS bestial and predatory and leads to evil.
>>44041824
i thought they did this already with that small clan of grey jedi or whatever, that used a more grey scale and dabbled in both sides of the force cause they were all like yo closing yourself off to one side the force is like not accepting the force
>>44058701
WELL THEN YOU ARE LOST
>>44067711
Which was indeed more primal, primal being more emotional, loving, hating, creation and destruction.
The difference between the light and dark was light was complete and utter control, stagnation as many came to see the Jedi, a total system stamping out soldiers who couldn't think for themselves.
Where as the dark was, as you said, more bestial and predatory because it was a more primal force. But when it came to the force, it was a matter of pure perspective.
You CAN have a innate desire to destroy evil because love is a very primal emotion.
Which is why the Gray knights never sided with jedi or sith because the were both very wrong.
The Jedi created a system so ridged that it lost a lot of support with those who frequently fell through the cracks. Sith were blinded by their desires. The gray tempered both with will, determination and shitloads of meditation because it gave them loopholes through perspectives.
IE
>"Yeah, I could totally go overboard with the dark, lose myself to my own rage and anguish over loss, but I can direct it and control it like a domesticated beast."
And unsuprisingly because of this, they were far stronger than any of the masters on either side.
