What is it that makes a great BBEG? Is it the amount of shit they put you through, the pure unlikability of the character, the fact they have a strong motive supporting their actions, or is it just their raw strength and challenge that makes it satisfying?
Pic related, 10/10 villain.
watching this thread with interest, pic related being my BBEG of choice
>>44034547
OP, if you made this exact same thread with a picture of Nox instead, it would have taken off by now.
>>44035091
Sorry, it not my fault I find Dio Brando to be one of the best villains given his lack of motive and generic back story.
They have to be FABULOUS!
I prefer villains that I like, than villains that I hate.
>>44035091
I don't know why, Nox is a shit-tier bad guy
>>44035146
DIO did have a motive, fucking over the Joestars and world domination.
>>44034547
For me?
Their motivation.
What they're willing to put on the fire for their goals.
How much of a threat they represent to the player characters.
How much the players hate tthem, and their reasons why.
>>44035403
I think your suppose to put you bait in the water not the other way around.
>>44035407
Yeah, but why did he want to take over the world? He just wanted to because he was an ambitious dick, and he wouldn't have given a fuck about the Joestars if it wasn't for the fact he was using Jonathan's body and they were coming to try and kill him.
>>44035436
>boo hoo, I miss my family
Wow great back story, it's so original I almost forgot that it's a cliche. Hell his entire character is a cliche.
>>44034547
I personally have gotten sick of the moral ambiguity most BBEGs have in most of my campaigns. It's so common now that it's actually refreshing when we have one that is just straight up evil.
It doesn't help that one of our players always plays a bleeding heart type and wants to "save" the last boss because "he was just misguided guys, if we kill him we are just as bad as he was"
>>44035529
...thats not a backstory. Thats a motivation. Cliched? Sure. Most are. At least get what you're demeaning right man.
>>44035642
Losing his family and going mad from grief is his back story, it's his origin story so to speak. The point is that it's shit.
>>44034547
For me, they need to be a challenge firstmost. Although it doesn't have to come from personal combat ability, it can be their allies, resources, or wits - whatever, as long as they pose a significant challenge.
Secondmost; they need to be alive. They must not just be a plot device; the players shouldn't look at them and think "This is the bbeg" they should look at them and think "This is x, the x, who we x." And so on. Bonus points if the different players know different things about their archenemy.
I find that good villains are admirable in some way. They have a twisted sense of honor, or are so cunning that at times it's hard to to admire the intricatcey of their plans. Or perhaps they're a parallel of the player/players so there's an element where you can see yourself in the evil.
>>44035596
>wants straight up unapologetic evil, classic villian
>hates player who acts like a classic hero
M8.
>>44035722
Very much so this. It doesn't matter how interesting they are if they're not a threat then no one will give a fuck.
>>44034547
When their actions over a long period of time make you recoil in horror and disgust, and you still want to fuck them anyway.
OP image very related.
>>44034547
>>44035146
I liked Dio in part 1, but his return in part 3 was lackluster, and the non-sequitor-nes of it all just turned me off to the series as a whole, and I stoped half-way through.
However, Dio in part 1 was an AMAZING villain, who you loved to hate, and continually pushed the protagonists to the brink of destruction, never quite going down until the bitter end, which all culminated in Jonathan making a beautiful sacrifice that had come full circle and had been drawn to its perfectly natural conclusion of brotherly love, even for the undeserving, conquering Dio's hatred, even if he had to sacrifice himself.
Then part3 came allong, undercut the whole thing, turned the ending from beautiful to meaningless, and turned it all into a "pokestand of the week" Saturday morning cartoon.
>>44034547
If you give me a Bbeg that I can hate to my heart's content, that's good enough for me.
>>44035746
>people aren't allowed to like what I don't.
I think there has to be an element of "beyond"ness that a really awesome bbeg needs. Not as in alien or bizarre, but more like something greater than the protagonists, that they can't beat when they first learn about him. I think (at least) half of what is awesome about truly great villains is the lengths the heroes will go to train, prepare, and plot to defeat him. But even with all his power and strength, a good villain should remain reachable, and grounded in some form of reality (even if it's not our own).
>>44035746
Also, your opinion does not make a hero or villain archetype 'classic'
I prefer villains to be having a good time doing what they're doing, even if they're not eating babies or even entirely sure it's the best possible outcome. honestly, some of the best villains ive seen in games aren't even that much more powerful than the PCs, if that. Craftiness, joy and mobility gives me a decent springboard and a good few tropes to pick from with what I like in a villain.
>>44034547
Kars was better.
>>44035685
Ive never watched it myself but, to be fair, its not like theres many things that will motivate someone to be a BBEG. Thats pretty high up on the list, the whole ''Ill be with my family no matter the cost'' sorta thing.
My personal favourite BBEG types, to contribute to the thread, are the ones that challenge you or are inscrutable. The sort of BBEG that seems to be playing a game of chess and always be 3 turns ahead or the Reapers/Angels basically.
>>44035967
That's a shame anon.
Part 3 has its issues, but if you'd stuck through it you'd find some worthwhile content.
Unfortunately it takes another couple of parts for Araki to figure out how to write proper plot instead of x of the week fights.
Also throwing Valentine into the ring of 10/10 villains in account of that GOAT vision.
Not even a murrican.
>>44039640
Part 3 was boring because the Stands weren't really good. Part 4 is amazing in that regard and it only got crazier.
>>44039640
Part 3 is really the one with the funnier jokes. Polnareff pretty much steals the entire spotlight with all the bullshit he walks into.
>>44035967
But anon, DIO had Part 3's best stand.
>>44040340
Part 3 should really be called Polnareff's Bizarre Adventure. Jotaro hardly does anything interesting most of the time and Joseph is a supporting character.
>>44035458
Because he felt like he deserved to rule it, like he was ENTITLED to rule it. He was a sociopath who got super powers and near-immortality.
>>44034547
i like my villains to fight a psychological fight against the PCs , mostly because i like to make them more neutral than evil.
trying to convince powerful players to join them , telling them how much better the world could become.
or just try to fuck over the players perception of what is good and evil.
a good villain , in my opinion , also truly challenges the players in their morals , not being an obvious badguy who underlines his evilness with being a general dick.
and to add to that , make the opposing forces more neutral than good. this way , i already got the players to kill eachother because of moral conflicts (all were good/neutral aligned)
pic kiiiiiinda related , because one of my BBEGs mooks was inspired by monsoon
>>44043103
and the group managed to stay together?
>>44043159
until they killed eachother , yes
>>44043365
Then the group dissolved and the game fell apart?
Were you okay with it?
>>44043383
they made new characters , the last time someone was salty from getting his character killed was half a year ago
they grouped up with the surviving party member
>>44043469
what do you mean? my choice of words or the player behavior?
>>44043498
good for you.
I suppose it's okay
>>44034547
For me, the villains that scare me the most are the ones that fully and honestly believe they're doing the right thing.
The ones who "just want to make everyone happy" and will trap everyone in a simulation or a dream to do it. The ones who "just want peace" and will remove the world's capacity for aggression to do so.
The scariest BBEG is the one who thinks they're the hero.
>>44034547
I rather like rivals.
I think it's important to make a really cool character. Someone the players find interesting, but at the same time ensure the PCs hate said person. It's about what this person means to you, what they've done to fuck you over / what they might do to what you hold dear if they're allowed to continue on with their shit. Especially if the method this person uses for this heinous shit makes the players themselves react positively, regardless of how their characters react.
Strong motives can work, but it often ends in the GM supporting the antagonist over the protagonists. Usually in a 'HE WUS A GOOD BOY, HE DINDU NUFFIN!' way, which is absolutely infuriating, don't do that.
In short, execution is really all that matters.
>>44045721
Seriously on that really matters is that your campaign was better off for the villain's inclusion. That can me all sorts of things depending on the people involved.
>>44045968
>all that really matters
>that can mean
Christ, phone.
>>44035967
>he missed the end parts in Cairo and Dios mansion/neighborhood
Whew lad
>>44041769
Agreed.
>>44035027
Your BBEG of choice is a shallow marty stu whose only motivation is being evil and doing evil?
Although I must admit that it means that your other BBEGs will look that much better by comparison.
>>44034547
DIOOOO
>>44034547
Good Villains Make Interesting Things Happen.
If I could write a book on how to do a tabletop RPG villain, that would be the title. Roleplaying games are different from other forms of media. A good villain in a book or a movie typically wants to be an interesting character. Maybe they have a unique world-view. Maybe they have a tragic backstory. Maybe they believe what they're doing is right. These shades of gray are what make interesting, memorable characters in most media.
And they don't matter *at fucking all* in a tabletop RPG. In a tabletop game, you're not just experiencing the villain's actions, you're affected by them. You're a part of them. You're playing through them. As a result, in a roleplaying game, the villain itself matters far less than what the villain does.
He was raised by barbarians and fought his way into becoming their leader, now he fights to carve a place for his people in the world? That's great. It's nice flavor, it's a cool story, and I like it. But it doesn't matter even a little bit until he does something with it. It is secondary, even tertiary to his actual role in the game, and that is to fuck shit up in ways that take the PCs into new and interesting places.
Can you have both? Of course! It's good to have a villain that is an interesting character in their own right. That's fine. But understand that your villain is (to steal a line from the Adventure Burner's excellent chapter on antagonists) "An empty vessel... a container that will hold conflict."
I say this because I often see people use descriptive terms to describe their villain. He looks like this. He behaves like this. That's cool, but it shouldn't be what you start with when you want an antagonist. Give him something to *do*. Throw him at the PCs. Let him die. Being attached to your villains is something that will completely fuck you over as a GM. "He" doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that the PCs' lives are being made difficult through him.
