>>44018283
>>44018283
>>At least two anons are making piecemeal reviews of various Book 3 exaltations and classes. Hi, other dude.
I gotta say the critique anon(s) have made the threads significantly better.

>>44018079
It does not, BUT Oricalcum Power Armor Paladin with a user with Armor specialization can have AP 21 but gets 1 lower max Dex.

All those resilience bonuses net him a surprisingly scary 16 resilience.

How much is 16 resilience with 21 armor?
36 damage and under is completely ignored.
37-52 is 1 HP.
53-68 is only 2.
69-54 is still only 3.
85-100 is merely 4 HP lost.
101-116 is finally 5 HP.

The Paladin? Likely has 25 HP.

A level 1 human with average stats for comparison?

Only 8 HP with resilience 4.

Resilience is a big deal.

>>44018283
It's a shame they never used this one cover.

>>44018283
Another thing that always bugged me is actually coming from Book One: The Meltagun (and thus to an extend the Multimelta from Book 2).

I know that D:tD's 40k based weapons are mostly based on Dark Heresy, where the Meltagun also just boasted an outright high Pen Value, while later Games of the series intruduced the archetypical "be more killy at close range", either due to additional d10 for Damage or doubling its penetration value.

Does anyone here have an opinion if it might be worth experimenting with this?
12 Pen Base is already really insane, but as we can see Vehicles and some Characters can reach armor well around 20 and some quite significant resillience of 10+, 15+ even in the case of vehicles.
I lack game experience, but i would like to hear some opinions if the Meltaweapons in their current state really pack the anti armor punch they are known for and if there might be a good way to emphasise that you'll want to be even more up close and personal instead of skimming at normal or longer range if you're a good shooter.

My first thought would be lowering some of the base values (one or both) of damage and pen but increasing them for getting really close.
Really, it's just a crunch thing that's a little part of the fluff for me and i'd really like to add it here.

I might follow with some numbercrunching, but let's get a discussion rolling.

>>44018637
One of the 'issues' is that vehicle scale is seemingly built to not interact with personal scale without serious bullshittery capabilities.

Which DtD is about, but still.

Simply buying a meltagun won't help. You need a meltagun with Darksteel ammunition and a gun kata trick shot.

And lots and lots of feats

>>44018614
It also means no Artifact Power Armor, which is sad.

>>44018345
I'm of the opinion that you should really use Darksteel in place of Orichalcum so that you don't get screwed over by high-Penetration weaponry, like a Null Ray (TWENTY FUCKIN' PEN) or something.

Also, of course, if you start pulling that shit in-game then you should fully expect the SM to pull out the Wave Motion Cannons (Av. 56,5, Pen 20) and stuff that causes HP loss like fire and Toxic and Tearing. Also, of course, Knock Out Blow and Exit Wound Kata.
Escalation is fun in theory, but it should probably stay in theory.

Hey, you're remembering to go Warstrider after dragoning up, right?

>>44018637
12 Penetration hits through every single standard-quality armor in the game and all but the heaviest of vehicle armor.

You only start to out-armor it once you take get into Paladin levels, Armor Specialization, Stone Dragon and better-quality Power Armor (Mythic Rare for +1AP for a single hit/round).

Meltas are pretty good on personal scale, but if you start to go up against vehicles then you'll start to worry about those damage dice. You want to do at least two damage against a vehicle, really - assuming medium armor, that means a 57% chance against Size 10 stuff, and just a 3% chance against Size 20. (A Fighter with Crack Shot and Improved Weapon Specialization has a 23% chance. Gun Kata just makes it better in general, and Exit Wound Kata one-shots most vehicles.)

Of course, since its HP is just equal to its size you can probably get it down fairly quickly just by being persistent as long as its in range.

>>44018683
>You need a meltagun with Darksteel ammunition and a gun kata trick shot.
Yeah, i can get behind not every bob that finds a Meltagun hitting a heavy tank to death.

I'm still like the idea to notch down the Pen down to 8 for the normal ones and 12 for the Multimelta and going up to 16/24 at short range.
Maybe as some sort of variant weapon pattern. I'll tell wou how it went if it happens.

You can only have special ammo made of solid materials.

That means no energy or fuel based weapons apply.

Book 1 artifacts section.

>>44019014
Whoops, that's my mistake.

>>44018929
The only other guns even remotely in the same ballpark as Meltas are the MP Lascannon (Pen 10), Null Ray (Pen 20), and Krak/Plasma Grenades/Missiles at Pen 10/12. Next you've got Plasma and Heavy Bolters at Pen 8, and then the next step is Pen 6. Melee only ever reaches Pen 8 with scythes.

Custom Meltas, meanwhile, can only ever get Pen 10, 13 with Recharge, for whatever reason.

As for range, meanwhile, it's notable that Meltas have utterly abysmal range (10m & 20m) - they're down there with shotguns, flamers, and the Null Ray. It's worth noting that this puts Meltas within charge range of pretty much everything.
10m is roughly 30', by the way. Most weapons have at least 30m, or 90' - even the Custom Meltas get that, if only because halving 60m leaves 30m.

>>44019308
Magic bypasses AP completely and is only reduced by Aura, which is quite rare for creatures and vehicles to have.

So the best tank killer is a mage.

>>44019308

>Melee only ever reaches Pen 8 with scythes.
And can get that up to 16 with Tiger Claw, but yeah i guess i've been wanking too much about special cases in general.

>Custom Meltas, meanwhile, can only ever get Pen 10, 13 with Recharge, for whatever reason.
Reading this reminds me of the custom weapon system feeling rather rushed. With all the homebrew it tingles in my fingers to do somethins about it, but who know how long that will take. Still, thank you all for the input.

When looking things up I noticed that there's an error in the vehicle chapter - the "Hit Points" section on page 92 doesn't fit with "Vehicles and Damage" on page 96.

>>44019430
Nah, the best tank killer is a Magitek Gunman 3 who made a Trick Shot with a two-point Exit Wound Kata - every single hit means a roll on the Vehicle Crit Damage table, so it'll really hurt 'em despite being a simple at-will attack.
Getting extra shots could help kill 'em off quicker, I guess, but you're already wrecking Size 24 Bio-Titans with a single arrow so I don't know if that's necessary.

You could also use a sniper rifle, I guess, but that's not as funny.

Magic works fine if you want to actually wear down the HP pool, but you'll need to specifically use something like Energy Ball if you want them to roll on the crit table and get those bad things happening to them - a lot of spells are more about getting lots of small attacks than one big one. You can also just stick a Wall of Force in front of them, of course, or do tricky things like tossing Glyphs into open hatches.

Melee, of course, is the one to go for "one big one". Tiger Claw is ridiculously good at that (especially with Daemonic Weapon Attack!), but it's worth mentioning that Setting Sun 5 can take that wave-motion cannon and redirect it into the cockpit. The problem is just getting within range.

>>44019654
>Reading this reminds me of the custom weapon system feeling rather rushed.
No kidding. The weapons you get out of it tend to be either horribly overpriced or highly min-maxy.

>>44019654
I dont know if it was rushed, but i do remember that being incapable of making one of the weapons listed in the book 1 was a deliberated decision.

This is to prevent making "better" versions of the weapons without downsides.

The problem is that makes custom weapons feel kinda weak.

>>44019816
It's not even about the damage numbers. Usually you just end up with subpar magazine sizes or ranges, because you have to buy some sort of drawback to get enough boosts to get it on par with the Book 1 Arsenal, and those are the least crippling.

>>44018283
Can monk apply his perks to brawling weapons? got a full grown argument about it brewing.

>>44020938
The base unarmed damage is 0k1. You add your strength to this, as usual. (Book 1, page 251)

The weapons in the "Unarmed" category aren't actually used by themselves - Brawling weapons add their damage to your unarmed damage. (B1p203) So +0k1 for brass knuckles, +2k2 for power fists. (B1p211)

The Monk's feats, then, add +1k1 damage, +4 Pen, cause them to deal X damage, and count as magic.

So you've now got a 3k4 X Pen 8 weapon.

That's alright, I guess. It's worse than a Fighter specialized in Power Fists, I think, since that's 4k4 damage.

What's the specific thing you're arguing about?

>>44021244
the monk's feats mainly. thanks for answering.

>>44021616
Yeah, keep in mind that if you don't let it stack with Power Fists then your unarmed strike will be 1k2 X Pen 4. Which is, quite frankly, shit.

>>44021712
what is good melee weapo n then

>>44022358
A shortspear is 2k2 R Pen 3, and doesn't require you to take three feats to get you to that level.

A Power Fist gives you 2k3 I Pen 4, A +1k1 IMPROVEMENT, for zero (0) feats.

On the other hand, a 3k4 Pen 8 is in the upper echelons of melee penetration and has pretty damn good damage as well. Not overpoweringly so - a Fighter could get a Grand Daiklave to 6k4, for instance - but better than doing the damage of a club.

Also, of course, an ordinary Daiklave is 4k2 R Pen 4. For zero feats.

It's not that there's better weapons than a hypothetical non-Brawling Monk, it's that there's almost no weapons that are worse.

Kryptonian writer here. Looked at the feedback I got last thread and made some changes.

First off, I changed the name of the Power Stat from Luminosity to Sun Soul. I like the sound of it better.

Second, I replaced Solar Breathing with Sunlight Yellow, which improves Overdrive and makes Overdrive attacks magical.

Third, I changed the assets. El, Zod, and Joestar got nerfed, and He'stan got a wording change to prevent it from being awful. As for why there's six, Rubiss was a suggestion and I liked it.

It's looking like 6 is the new standard for Exalted Assets, if you count things like Paragon racial assets.

>>44022592
oh my that's upsetting

how to obtain maximal damage with weapon is import

>>44023702
Yeah, monks in rpgs tend to... well... suck.

BUT, the real use for a monk is to dip in to boost a vampire's or daemonhost's bite so you can get resources easier.

>>44024282
>>44023702
Monks most certainly don't suck in DtD. They just generally synergise best with an exalt that gets it's own natural attack, and don't mind being naked.

In the campaign I ran, there was a Halfling Were-weasel Monk. He had a Static Defence of about 60 at the end of the campaign, pushed to 100 when he Dodged. Then he turned into a dragon with Transmutation and tore the faces off of everything.

>>44023702
I'm pretty sure the Grand Daiklave/Goremaul and the Grimscythe tie for the most efficient damage in melee. At +6k0 to damage, they're both at 10k3, and any other bonuses you get are 2:1 to get more kept dice. Grimscythe is arguable the better of the two (Power Field, can parry at all), but a Grand Daiklave/Goremaul is easier to get.

>>44023702
Oh, that's easier. Boost your Strength up as high as possible, be a race with a damage bonus (Tiefling is worth considering), go for classes with as many damages as possible - Barbarian 1 into Fighter 2 is a good choice, for instance, so you can get Frenzy and Weapon Specialization.

Oh yeah, and choose the right Exaltation. Anything that lets you get bonuses to damage or boost strength above 5 should be considered, but don't forget stuff like the Werewolf's Warform's and Get of Fenris Asset.

With Tiefling Werewolf Barbarian 1/Fighter 2+3, you end up with +11k0+2 damage. Now, you want to choose a weapon that both fits in one of your five Sword Schools and also has an odd number of rolled dice so you don't end up wasting some on converting to kept dice (make sure to do the math.)

For example, a Great Weapon would do 10k5+2 damage while a Grimscythe would also do 10k5+2 but also generally be better (if more expensive). The Great Weapon is only Very Rare, however, so you can get an Artifact version of it - Orichalcum makes it do +3 damage and lets you reroll damage once per scene.

So now you're doing 10k5+5 damage. Cool.

You're a Fight Guy, so you could just do two attacks with Multiple Attack and just ruin a guy. That requires you to be next to them, though, so let's make a Half Action Special Attack. You want Desert Wind 1 to be able to use your scythe with it, and level three in literally any school so you can pump +6k0 damage out of it. I'd recommend White Raven for its restriction and action, and also add the "once every other turn" restriction 'cause you're going run to a guy, mess 'em up for a turn, and only then run to the next guy.
That's 10k8+5 on a charge action, and 2x10k5+5 on a Multiple attack.

>>44024485
Whoops, I meant Stone Dragon 1 and literally anything 3.

>>44024282
Werewolf Black Spiral Dancers get +1k1 to their claw and bite, pushing those Brawling weapons to 2k2 and 3k2.
Dryad Matrons get +2k0 damage on Brawl attacks.
That all adds up to 5k3 base damage with only a racial feat and asset.

Add in the seven strength from Warform, and you're up to 10k4 damage. Monk 4 turns that into 10(11)k5, and can Flurry of Blows for three attacks as a half action (with +2k0 damage, because why not). Or just give it the Shocking property or do five levels of Fatigue on a hit (4+standard 1 for unarmed strike). Or spend a Hero Point to give one of the three blows Shocking.

Monks can be pretty good, with some light optimization. It helps that it's not exactly hard to make really powerful characters, so the upper echelons kind of blend together a bit.

Thanks guys. I'm glad people around are willing to help monks punch out a tank while tanking it.

>>44025364
A naked Monk 5 has 14 armor.

That's equal to Armor Specialized Power Armor, except with higher Static Defense and no bonus Resistance.

Tanks also aren't that buff, really - that level 4 guy up there could kill Book 2's Scorpion Tank in two turns, less so if one of the crit rolls turns bad.
Then again, 4th level characters. If you send a level 1 Monk up against a tank he's going to have a fairly bad day.

>>44024813
I said most games, if you know how to combo your abilities, then yes, the Monk can be powerful, but a Fighter with a high damage weapon can do more effectively.

You have to jump through a few hoops, but you can easily reach the higher echelons.

But that's because DtD is all about bullshit stacking.

>>44025364
OH. if you really want to do that....

May I suggest a Dryad Orichalcum Promethean with a necrodermis powerfist as an integrated weapon? Go Warstrider for the +1k1 to integrated weapons, +3 Strength, double size and other fun things.

Even without monk (and Fighter's weapon boosting feats give better increases if you specify Unarmed for them, but advancing in the class track requires investment in the weaponry skill...), that's a 6k4 weapon. THEN you can add on the 8! strength for 14k4->10k6 And if you REALLY ABSOLUTELY NEED THAT TANK SMASHED pay 5 Pyros into Transhuman potential for a +10 strength for one check. 24k4->10k10+5 damage. Before class fuckery.

It's not monk that makes unarmed matter, it's everything else.

>>44025807
>>44025834
based anons you're legit making me cry ots so fooken bootiful

>>44025834
>Dryad promethean
Not sure I get how that works, to be quite honest.

>>44025879
There are ways to get EVEN MORE DAMAGE, but yeah.

>>44026393
It's a giant robot tree.

What more do you want in life?

>>44026393
How does a Human Promethean work? Probably the same way.

Remember, Prometheans are artificial members of their species.

>>44026478
>There are ways to get EVEN MORE DAMAGE, but yeah.
Ayup. That's without Special Attacks, for one. And Power Attack. And Feral. And Powerful Charge, Furious Assault, Crushing Blow...

Furious Assault is especially fun, since I'm pretty sure that it keeps some of the advantages of Special Attacks. So if you get +10k0(+0k5, +25) damage, that applies to the second attack as well. It's pretty fuckin' neato, and makes using Special Attacks over Multiple Attacks a legitimate option if you're going for pure damage.

And, of course, Tiger Claw's Daemonic Weapon Attack more than doubles the damage of an attack.

Is this just a slightly more self-aware version of RIFTS?

>>44026792
More like a less self-aware version of TORG

File: madmans_knowledge.jpg (47 KB, 408x409) Image search: [Google]

47 KB, 408x409

>>44026688
omg that's hot

that damage capcity is making me hot. hot in the brain

>>44018283
Hey, guy who wrote the Perpetual? If you're here, I think your thing is cool but you really gotta go with some other words for the level feats man! Eternal BLANK is boring as all hell! Use those synonyms for eternal bro!

Okay, I've been postponing reviewing this. Time for the PARAPSYKER

Fluff is "You're touched by the warp, except not like the other warp touched exaltions"

I went ahead and looked at the resource pool, Resolve+Power Stat, regain by meditation...

Jesus fuck people.

The pool is fine, but seriously.

I don't want to get mad, but I'm extremely disappointed.

Well, now for the powers.

Wild Talents is seriously fucking powerful. Stupidly powerful. You get two schools fused onto one, use power stat instead of the school ranks, the rank of this super-school is increased for free ANYWAY with power stat increase, and you ignore Material, Verbal and Somatic components.

A free school of your choice that's always on your list are one of the best things about the Atlantean and the Daemonhost. These are the two most magic oriented exalts in the core book.

This shits on them AND the Vampire, who's power stat powers tend to be free spells.

That's a great introduction.

Use the Warp is a passive boost to the simple roll booster all exalts have. +1 static bonus per resource spent is a small bonus, and the free upgrade at Power stat 3 is what really makes this ability shine. Getting an extra die for every 2 resource you buy really, really opens the potential of this exalt.

Unquiet Whispers is their weakness mechanic and it just doesn't look like a weakness until REALLY LATER, but effectively, it wants to get meaner with later scenes by increasing the radius of effect. But by scaling the amount of people that needs to trigger the effect weakens it as a weakness. Then there's a -2 to Alignment checks because of "the voices in their head"

Honestly tracking how many people in an area like that is annoying from a SM perspective anyway.

>>44029474
Last I knew the Parapsyker was canned, anyway

>>44030088
No, it's back now. It got merged with the Force-Sensitive to make something new.

Alright, would there be any point/interest in me getting the strikejammers and warp-rattler class line all fixed up?

Or is everything usually "no ships or vehicles, fuck that shit" for most campaigns anyways?

>>44030315
I would be interested. Our games tend to have home base ships and shit.

>>44029474
Extrasensory is pretty powerful. Granted, it's the same radius as Unquiet Whispers, so the basic effect is really a way for the player to know if he's approaching Unquiet Whispers level or not without metagaming. The familiar extra-range is really nice.

Then you have it's second effect. Spending one resource to psychically know exactly where a creature in your whispers radius is nice. You can also communicate with it psychically AND get a +3k3 to scrutiny tests because why the fuck not?

I already talked about the pool and more meditation.

Unnatural Mind (Ego 1) gives the feats Strong Minded and Danger Sense. Danger Sense is not a rare feat (2 classes in the core book give it at level 1) and Strong Minded is a level 2 unique (in core) feat for the magic user track.

But that's not the real value for it. It's the ability to buy mental characteristics up to 6. This effect is usually gained either at Power 2 or with a feat surcharge for EACH characteristic being increased.

Mind Hand Manipulation (Ego 2) gives you a ranged ability to move things with willpower. You can't use it to attack, but it gets a free upgrade at Ego 4 to let you attack with it.

Don't forget you get a new spell at this level.

Superior Action (Ego 3) gives you flyer with a rate equal to 2*Ego. You ALSO get the ability to gain 1 psy when you roll psychic phenomenon. The first one is an okay power on its own. The second is an okay power on its own. You get both at this level, a free spell AND your use the warp gets upgraded.

One With the Warp (Ego 4) is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY cost efficient. Like stupidly so. The 'class progressions' clause does not weaken it in the least. It's still 1 resource for a +4k0 to rolls you make with that characteristic for a scene. You also get to use Mind Hand Manipulation with attacks at this level, and get another spell.

PK Alpha (Ego 5) gives you two PK spells for free instantly AND lets you reroll a failed PK magic test. You still get ANOTHER free spell

So my judgement on the parapsyker?

Disappointing and powerful.

And at most an alternate Atlantean or Daemonhost.

Half the abilities are Daemonhost abilities with extra bonuses.

Has Lawful Nice ever spoken since the update 3 years ago? Anyone tried to email him?

>>44030966
he's ded jimbob

Soo... did I do all the exalts in the book? Wait no. I remember now, I stopped just before the Phoenix alternate exalt

The PHOENIX

Most of it runs on the Kryptonian. So most of my conversation about that works here.

Phoenix Rebirth replaces Celestial Body. It's a refluff of the Chosen's "Don't Die" mechanic, and it works.

The Heat pool is changed to Con+Wis+Power. This better expresses the Phoenix.

Immortal Firebird (Luminosity 2) replaces Man of Steel and offers a cap boost on Resistance Characteristics and gives 2*Luminosity to HP. The HP boost may be much if only because the cap breaker also increases the HP stats.

Everlasting Phoenix Tail (Luminosity 5) gives you the energy bits spell. With a way to augment it.

Did I ever tell you how Energy Bits is my favorite spell?

All in all it's fine. Solar Breathing is still there and that's just too powerful.

So really I've reviewed my share of stuff.

I know there's more, but I'm going to chat about my approved at the table list of homebrew exaltations:

Demiurge (Although: assets need to be re-looked (I'll get to them one day I swear!), resource pool needs to be rethought, resource acquisition though really needs to be rethought and possibly made more proactive.)

Perpetual (I'm not 100% sure on assets though. Granted, the Book 1 and 2 assets are usually somewhere between amazing and just mediocre.)

Symbiote (Needs a bit of tuning to somehow either reduce wordiness or replace with simpler, more straight-forward abilities)

Fool (Not too much to say)

The Sin-eater and Strigoi I haven't read yet. I'll get to them

>>44033787
>Solar Breathing is still there and that's just too powerful.
Solar Breathing has been replaced with Sunlight Yellow. Makes your Overdrives stronger and count as magic.

>>44034041
>The Sin-eater and Strigoi I haven't read yet. I'll get to them
The forum version of the Sin-Eater has the word count cut down, but should be otherwise identical.

Great. With that (and the new asset re-balancing,) Kryptonian and Phoenix are now on the list of approved.

>>44034545
Oh, don't forget that the Phoenix has assets of its own that may need to be reviewed.

>>44034631
Oh, shit, you're right.

Aurora Aspect needs a "can" before "channel an Overdrive through"

Other than that, I don't have a problem with it.

Meridian is fine.

Gloaming Aspect is mechanically complex, but fine.

Eventide is fine if only because of the once per scene clause.

Penumbra is fine.

All good, surprisingly.

>>44030315
I am in a campaign right now centering around a pirate lord hosting a Spelljammer Ironfist tournament with the prize of an entire crystal sphere. Each player has a ship and we're doing fleet-on-fleet combat.

So games with ship/vehicle combat does happen. Though our GM did overhaul the spelljammer Hulls and Weapon rules, because as they currently stand they're completely unbalanced. Original Thresher-class is ridiculous, as are Antimeson weapons.

If you guys could put the google doc link in the op for the next thread, that would be great.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8z4Cy1zaGU1bnJMaDE4WDZZUlk&usp=sharing

It's currently up to date with all of the PDFs.

>>44030966
He's moved on to game design that he's getting paid for. Maybe he'll come back eventually, look at Book 3 and go "shittttt nigger what you been doing?!"

>>44035030
well I'll see what I can come up with. bit rusty and whatnot.

any particular details/complains in regards to ship/vehicle interface that you've experienced?

>>44035030
Oh sweet! There really hasn't been a lot of good homebrew space stuff, and it'd be great to get some from people who have actually done space combat: would you mind posting those overhauled rules on the forum?

>>44035069
>Maybe he'll come back eventually, look at Book 3 and go "shittttt nigger what you been doing?!"

My goal is simple: to keep the number of extra letters in that shittttt down.

>>44035528
>>44035069
He didn't actually modify the content in book two much before including it, did he?

>>44035593
the weapon creation system needed a second and third revision that's for sure.

has it been redone?

>>44035593
Book 1 is call 7.6 edition. Since 1-6th edition never existed, we can assume that this means that what we have as the core book is the 6th or 7th iteration. 7th most likely because initial release would have been 7th edition and the second would have been 7.1

Even then, there are still some flaws, like old stats for monsters and some wrong dicepools for actions.

Book 2 is book 2.2. Meaning that it's only the third iteration. Odds are most of the changes were correcting typos but not any real mechanical corrections.

>>44036163
More likely 2nd iteration.
I do believe it was originally "7.5" edition. Perhaps in mild reference to some mechanical similarities with 7th sea.

Think of any fictional character of your choice

How would they be statted in DtD? How do you adapt them to DtD's lore?

>>44036186
7th edition indeed is just a reference to Seventh Sea. The decimal is the published revision number, though there were a few minor updates (such as bookmarks) that didn't get thier own number.

Book 1 also started out as a pile of .txt files called the "DTD Test Docs" back in 2010. I have those stashed away, mostly for comparison purposes.

I'm going to step away from reviewing and go into random dickery.

CLEARLY, all this confusion is because everyone's forgotten the history of Dungeons: the Dragoning.

I'll be correcting this for everyone so you don't look like a bunch of blibbering mouth-suckers.

So second impact happened, remember that? Well no rpg companies could stand up on their own financially anymore.

Well, except Steve Jackson Games, but I swear that they have ties with the Illuminati or Seele or something.

Anyway, three of the biggest companies held a merger to survive the new world, and White Wizard Workshop was made.

GW had earlier cannibalized FFG. Before even that though, FFG had managed to buy ALL of AEG's properties after their successful run with L5R. In order to keep their settings, worlds and systems from being confused for each other, they made the wisest choice they could have made at the time: they threw them all out and made a new one.

So Dungeons: The Dragoning was born. Modern day fans of the line refer to it as DtD Fantasy or Classic DtD or rarely 0th edition.

There were a few... idiosyncrasies to it, like the racial exaltations. See, all races except human were their own exalt. It's why the Warforged in book 3 for 7e exist, a call back to the old Warforged exalt that we now know as the Promethean. Hell, they even had the same capstone power: Warstrider.

This was also the only edition where Syrne was a playable race/exalt.

>>44036984
>It's why the Warforged in book 3 for 7e exist, a call back to the old Warforged exalt that we now know as the Promethean.
That makes a disturbing amount of sense. You know, for an alternate history of something thrown together by fans and propelling by the screams of copywrite lawyers. Continue with the history lesson!
>Syrne was a playable race/exalt.
SHHHHH! Someone might build it!

>>44036984
Syrne were completely borked though. See in this version, you could only gain magic from your exaltation. Classes could only modify what you could do. Syrne were the only ones to learn all the schools of magic. Hell, 7 of the 9 were effectively exclusive to them.

Chosen and Eldarin had spells, sure, but they were limited to a select pool.

Also, Power Stat as we now know it didn't even exist for most exalts. The ones that did have things resembling them were bizarre and frustrating though, like Warforged had to buy their Generation at character creation and could never increase it in play.

Syrne were the only ones that had Power Stat alike that could increase it and could use magic.

So... when WWW started their "Unified World Adventure Campaign," Syrne quickly became all the leaders of the world, the heroes of history and the like. The UWAC was an attempt to keep metaplot in the hands of the players. You got an Adventure every month or two, you finished it, then you'd mail in the results. They'd tally up the results of all the adventures and that'd make the new metaplot and set the scope for the next adventure.

This got so bad, the devs eventually released the Daemonhost just so humans could have magic like Syrne did, sadly it was too little too late.

So they did the unspeakable.

They released the Modrontide.

And the DtD Fantasy was killed.

Dungeons: the Dragoning 40k was quickly announced.

When Dungeons: the Dragoning 40k was released, people opened it excited and discovered: DtD Fantasy without Syrne (or Daemonhosts) and with guns instead.

Oh and Terminator spheres floating around. The spaceships promised by the game's blurbs and advertisement? All C'tan and Modron warships.

40,000 years of just fighting Modrons was the history.

The good news was races were now split from exaltations. But the splits weren't quite accurate. Werewolf and Dragonblooded were races, while Eldarin was. The book touted a new "Promethean" exalt (who's fluff implied one was actually the mythical Gen 0 Warforged who would be sent to the past to warn everyone in the fantasy timeline)

The big hook this time was that the ancient dragons could be awoken within the ancient dungeons of the world in an event known as the Dragoning.

Thus the justification for the name.

Now 1e 40k wasn't terrible: it had all the good rules, and the Modrons made a strong adventure focus. It just wasn't anything worth mentioning as a new edition. Thankfully it was successful enough to keep people playing and the constant mentioning of "All the Syrne are dead. No, you can't play one," was actually refreshing for once.

But 2e man. That's when shit started.

>>44037231
2e changed everything. Sure the 3x3 and 3x3 and 3x3 and 3x3 fixation was creepy and annoying to write for, but it helped broaden the focus of the game.

The setting was completely revamped. Instead of just fighting Modrons, now the concept of the "great wheel" was created. Now, Sigil was constantly mentioned, but never elaborated on. Instead the focus was put on the Crystal Shard creation system for your own area of the wheel.

It didn't even work out of the box. The joke was "All you ever get is worlds completely covered in water with a moon made of pure Mythril"

But character creation was heavily simplified and it was greatly improved by doing so. That 3x3 and 3x3 and 3x3 and 3x3 I mentioned? It was the steps of character creation. You had 3 Characteristic groups, 3 characteristics in each. You had 3 races (Alvenkind, Humankind, Dwarvenkind) with 3 subraces each (Eldarin, Elves, Dark Eldarin| Humans, Aasimar, Tieflings| Stouts, Gnomes, Halflings). You had 3 exaltations (Chosen, Paragons, Monsters) with their own sub-exaltations (Chosen of Order, Chosen of the Unaligned, Chosen of Chaos| Heroes, Wildcards, Novas| Vampire, Werewolf, Daemonhost). Then you had 3 classes each with 3 powersets they focused on.

This was the first time Magic wasn't based instantly on you exaltation. Hell, the new warp setpiece made it more common now. Unfortunately fans demanded to bring back the Syrne. So they did: with the new Exalt type: The Apotheosis. It's subtypes were the Atlantean, the Demiurge, and the Sage.

The Atlantean was welcomed and everyone was excited for it. The Demiurge though caused a moral panic. It was seen as Angel worship, and back then you just did not mention Angels ever. There's a reason why you still call them Daemons of Order.

And it's not because of SMT.

WWW needed a new edition to avoid the issue.

I need sleep. I'll be back later with more info.

>>44018345
Could you explain to me how to get to 16 resilience, the highest I have been able to reach is 10.

>>44037451
Matron Dryad (Size 6)
then cast Transmutation 5 Dragonform (+3 size),
be a Promeathean and go into Warstrider (double size => 18. 18 size = 11 Resiliance),
wear Power Armour (+1 resiliance),
have the Sturdy Asset (+1 resiliance),
have Stone Dragon 4 (+1 resiliance)

That's 13. Not sure how you get higher than that outside of Book 3 insanity.

>>44037528
Being level 5. (18+5)/2+1 is 13. 1 for sturdy, 1 for power armor, 1 for stone dragon

>>44037599
Huh. I did (18+5)/2 +1 wrong.
But so did you. It's 23/2 +1 = 12.5 = 12.

Plus sturdy, power armour, and stone dragon is 15

>>44037625
You round up with resilience.

>>44037634
Ohhhh. My bad.

>>44037363
What

Would a Chosen of a god of a specific crystal sphere survive against a Chosen of a Wheel-wide god?

>>44026393
>Not sure I get how that works, to be quite honest.
It's an Ent ya doofus. Or a Dendroid Guardian.

>>44038012
He's making up fictional history it seems.
>>44037363
>>44037070
>>44036984

Son you sound high as fuck.

>>44035993
not to my knowledge.

I still think we need a cleared selection of reasonably trustworthy people to go and do a re-edit of all of those rules so they aren't broken and to fix the spelling mistakes...

>>44036186
...I actually thought the 7.5th edition thing was a reference to D&D 3.5th edition...

>>44038134
>Son you sound high as fuck.
...shhhh those among us who get high as fuck may shed illumination upon truths we, the observers, take for granted; let him speak for it may grant us inspiration into the quandaries we have for this system and the changes to book 3

In case anyone wonders, the official story behind DtD is that LawfulNice did it on a bet and was inspired by an AdEva game where they had the PCs play an RPG inside the RPG. So the first half of >>44036984 is somewhat "canon", IIRC, although I think it was more just White Wolf, Games Workshop and Wizards of the Coasts that merged with the rest going bankrupt after Second Impact killed most of the population and whatnot.
Also, the Angels aren't public knowledge (Second Impact was a relativistic meteorite, after all) and it's only been fifteen years or so since it happened (yet there were still 7 editions of DtD somehow - I'm guessing that was added later.)

>>44039150
>...I actually thought the 7.5th edition thing was a reference to D&D 3.5th edition...
No, but there were some jokes about edition wars when 7.1th Edition came out IIRC. Book 1.0 had some of the greaTest editing goofs I've seen since dawizard. Also, Dexterity was the godstat that added to everything and Parry/Dodge added the entire result to Static Defense.

One notable change in Book 2, for instance, is how damage to vehicles doesn't automatically mean crit rolls, and doesn't get added to the roll.

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>>44037363
reviewanons why are you so based!?

>>44041416
Because they're awesome

bump from your gwave

>>44036664
>I have those
Is that you, Lawful Nice?

>>44036984
>Well, except Steve Jackson Games
That's because Munchkin isn't a traditional game so much as a nerd chic themed party game, the market is very different. It probably also helps that Steve Jackson is really quite good with money though, and the leaders of other /tg/ companies are often just really good designers and managers but weren't chosen for financial acumen.

>>44038134
It's a totally accurate history and it's going on the wiki.

>>44037060
if you want non Atlantian Syrn playable I'd have some sort of bio proxy body, possibly resembling the Protoss/zerg hybrids from starcraft

>>44046943
Could be an odd case of a race that's also an exaltation.

That remind me, how would you guys add the Protoss to DtD, since Protoss kinda overlap with Eldarin (ancient, long lived psionic race made by the precursors). Maybe I could stretch it quite a bit and make Protoss a sub-faction of Eldarin, one that is even more martial and structured. Dark Templar would not be Dark Eldarin, however. I can also see the Taldarim working but I need some input on this.

>>44047335
while I'm home brewing my own setting that gives wiggle room to add protoss while making them unique from Eldarin in a way that makes the pitched Geode exalt redundant protoss is one of the reasons I think racial atls could be good in the same way we have Alt Exaltations

>>44047401
>I think racial atls could be good in the same way we have Alt Exaltations
Indeed, we need Duergar and Svirneblins, amongst other things.

>>44047335
Religious zealot Eldarin. Done.

>>44037363
>Heroes, Wildcards, Novas
I miss these distinctions.

>>44047450
Well yes, Taldarim would work well as zealot Eldarin who blindly worship the Syrne. Bonus point for having some epic-level Atlantean called Amon leading them.

...for even more mindfuck, mix him with the OTHER Amon. No idea how that would work, so I'm throwing the idea in here.

>>44047490
he has a Hybrid proxy body that he can use to effectively EAT your exaltation from you, he drains whatever it is that makes you unique and assimilates it into himself

>>44047573
>Eats Exaltations

He then gets gangbanged by every god as they try to fight over the gribblies he leaves when they all hit him with the force of a fist of an angry gods.

>>44047401
>in a way that makes the pitched Geode exalt redundant
NO!

>>44046641
Question, why do people play GURPS when there is DtD, and why do more people not ask GURPS players this?

>>44048551
GURPS players are like abused spouses

>>44037363
So 3e needed a new, revamped setting... again.

OR they could have instead just release a core book with no exaltations in it, not even Paragon.

Later books released them piecemeal so people could run a dedicated campaign for them. This was good because it let them be more complicated and designed for themselves rather than simply a character slot.

Now, this meant though that the game needed something to make mortals comparatively complex themselves and not just a set of classes, so the skill system was implemented.

3e also introduced Amon Haight. Originally the only surviving member of the Syrne, he went on to exalt as an Atlantean, a Sage, a Paragon, a Vampire, and as a Werewolf.

It was so bad... it almost killed the idea of adventures being printed ever again.

It was so bad, they had to end 3e early.

4e though fucked everything up. See GURPS was effectively the only competition DtD had. Because of Amon Haight's bullshittery, GURPS had gone on to become the largest market share.

WWW figured it was the point buy system and NOT shitty mary sue antagonists that entire adventures obsessed over.

So 4e was a point buy system.

A shitty one. (But, sue me for this, I actually didn't mind that they dropped XP values and costs from increments of 50 to increments of 1)

It was SO overwrought, so over-designed and math dependent to get anything doen, that they released what fans jokingly refer to as 4.5: the character creation guide book.

The opening alone was worth it:

>You dumbasses. We give you the most perfect piece of work gaming has ever made, and you ask us how the fuck do you even make a character in it? Here's how.

The entire book effectively took all the old concepts and translated them into 4e mechanics and math with how to make them with 4e rules. There weren't any new rules at all in it.

Players used that book and ignored the rest of the system.

>>44048638
I laughed harder than I should have.

>>44049640
I appreciate the work anon, I hope it gets refined and added into the games lore.

It even explains why GURPS copies the 7th edition of DtD so closely, trying to steal the innovations.

>>44049640
>But, sue me for this, I actually didn't mind that they dropped XP values and costs from increments of 50 to increments of 1
Dropping that served no purpose other than assuaging the ravaged rectums of ignorant grognards. There is no need for numbers to be arbitrarily inflated.

>>44049640
>Amon Haight
Could someone explain this one?

>>44049839
I get Amon as a reference to stacraft retconning a new villain into to be responsible for everything and kijacking the plot as a result

>>44049878
Samuel Haight, look it up.

>>44049839
It's a reference to Samuel Haight of the oWoD bullshit metaplot. I actually think that's all he is. Should have fused him with Elminster.

>>44049901
I should have really. Damnit. Well it's not always going to be perfect.

>>44049901
His official title is el Minstér.

>>44049878
Also, that Amon is the only surviving member of the xel'Naga.

>>44049933
>>44049949
Yes, this; El Minstér Amon Haight!

>>44049901
>>44049933
Samon Elminstaight?

>>44049949
>>44049981
His formal title is el Minstér de Haight, but his net handle is Amon (he's also a nova-hot decker)

>>44050016
Eh, Shadowrun stuff isn't really in DtD. Somebody was gonna but I think he fell off the face of the planet.

>>44050033
I said I was going to implement some more cybernetics, and somebody suggested Shadowrun to me. I'm also going to do a DtD adventure book that might take inspiration from a Shadowrun book. If that's who you're talking about, I'm still here.

There's also some stuff about hacking and cyberdecks on the netrunner class, if that helps.

>>44050033
I'd love to see Dunkelzahn in DtD

>>44050239
Great dragons of sigil are in post #15.
http://s4.zetaboards.com/LawfulNice/topic/10330808/1/?x=40

>>44050211
>>44050033
>>44050239
>There's also some stuff about hacking and cyberdecks on the netrunner class, if that helps.
also riggers

>>44050477
Rigger please.

So 5e...

5e was a return to the old formula. Except that it took some lessons from 4e.

So now the point buy balancing was baked into the race, class, and exalt progression. Which is why to this day you don't get a free increase your power stat when you level up like you did in 3e.

It also introduced the Hero Point mechanic. This helped survival and meant that you didn't have to shove almost all your charcter points into getting your HP above the "Don't Die threshold" of 10.

Sadly Hero Points were given poor thought and it took them until 6e to get it right.

5e also FINALLY included the Swordschool rules but they were actually the combat attack rules of 4e disguised as a unique technique system.

6e's big claim to fame was actually getting CANCELED before release because it was just

that

bad.

So WWW threw it out and a year later we got 7e.

>>44050522
That puts us at the present, right? It's been a fun ride getting here.

>>44050513
okay
>http://s4.zetaboards.com/LawfulNice/topic/10335258/1/

also, hacking rules and a class progression to make them cool.
>http://s4.zetaboards.com/LawfulNice/topic/10340527/1/

>>44050565
As fun as riding with a serial killer in the back seat.

>>44050622
That was a joke, you goofball. Then again, it's a good idea that somebody posted these.

Someone who knows how should really make more ICE and ICEbreakers for the Netrunner to play with.

>>44050743
I did the programs in the last post. that was all the ideas I had after going through every program in netrunner...

In the interest of promoting Shadowrun stuff and hacking, I present the MatriNET

Any technologically advanced sphere has a local internet of some sort. A mess of cables and radio waves, usually, conveying information from one place to another. But how to get from one sphere to another? Well, that's a much harder problem. For that you need semathaums. Every sphere connected to the MatriNET has a semathaum, and each semathaum has three components, and only one is corporeal.The semathaumic interpolator (or STI) is is the corporeal part. You plug a bunch of cables into it, and that's its main function. Those wires transmit information to the PINGAS, or Packet Imp Network Group Aviary System, which launches a PING. Each Network Group contains scores of Packet Imps: Very small, very fast demons which have been specially bound to carry packets of data to a specific other sphere. When they get there, they identify the location by the final and most expensive part of the semathaum: The Toroidal Warp Beacon. This is a warp construction designed to resemble the form of Sigil, albeit much smaller in scale, and produces a small beacon akin to a very small astronomican. Because making larger toroids is exponentially more expensive, remote spheres cannot join the MatriNET until intervening spheres have joined, to allow a chain of beacons for PINGs to follow.

(cont)

>>44051200
Semathaums allow for many crystal spheres to connect to each other and they foment a greater connectivity and understanding than is possible on worlds which eschew them, but even ignoring the cost, they are not without downsides. Reputable MatriNET blog Gawkington Onion has critized the MatriNET as being detrimental to local cultural distinctiveness and intellectual economies, to hazarding personal privacy and empowering governments to do "totalitarian shit". Others have criticized the possibility that a PINGAS will congeal into a powerful and usually hostile demon with direct dominion over all technology in an entire sphere and access to the whole MatriNET, though more level heads point out that there are still more deaths associated with traditional Warp-Courier services than these rare tragedies.

There should maybe be a semathaum ship module available too.

>>44051200
I like where this is going...

and it allows my "YOG" program to remain viable, since it makes transmitting data too expensive for crowd-sourced things like the YOG

>>44051231
>congealing deamons
BUENO

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>>44051200
>The Internet is Demons

>>44051358
And angels.

Remember: Daemons and the warp run on SMT rules. Metatron's a Daemon.

>>44051231
>there are still more deaths associated with traditional Warp-Courier services than these rare tragedies.
Not to mention that this only happens with poorly maintained semathams, and our government has much tighter and better enforced regulations than Nihongo of the United Soviet Socialist People's Republic of Communism.

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>>44051358
>mfw when

Review note for the Doc: "tenet" is not spelled "tenant", that's a different word.

>>44051200
>>44051271
There's also the CyberRealm, which is what happens when the Umbra leaks into the internet. It's on the fluff thread.

>>44051665
Doesn't seem to have made the book though. I'll take a look and see what I can do to synergize stuff, some time.

>>44051665
yeah...I'm not gonna dig that thread till it gets properly codified either as a seperate book or into book 3

>>44050743
some gear, and an ICE for you.

Hot-Slot Chip(uncommon)
when hacking a system directly this chip allows the instant use of an Ice-breaker.
"it's a pitty that most terminals only have ont Hot-Slot, giggedy"

Hacking Nexus Cogitator(rare)
+3k0 to remote hacking actions
unit must be anchored to a stationary location (or a spelljammer moving at a constant speed without maneuvering)
if the unit moves or its location is damaged by explosives all hacking actions are made at -2k1 untill the unit can be stabilized with a TN-15 test
"Heat, and Vibration are the greatest enemies of computers"

Clone Chip(ubiquitous)
if an ICE program has been defeated with a rewrite action it may be copied on the spot with Tech use check.
target number of the tech use check depends on the rarity of the ICE (ubiquitous=5; very common=10; common=15; uncommon=20; rare=30; Mythic rare=40)
"sometimes it's cheaper to just steal someone else's ICE for your systems"

Shinobi(ICE; uncommon)
every success this ICE gains in counter-hacking adds a system tag to the system being used to hack it.
any Tech Use result of 30 or greater on a tagged system reveals the tags on the system, Tech Use TN=25 to remove
if a tagged system connects to a sufficiently wide network; security officer, law enforcement, or bounty hunters are alerted to the location of the tagged system

>>44051715
I wrote it, so feel free to mash it up with whatever you think would allow them to fit cohesively into DtD.

>>44051579
I'm assuming you mean in the entries for the Doomguard and the Hunter's Association? Those are the only two I could find, I believe.

>>44051777
>yeah...I'm not gonna dig that thread till it gets properly codified either as a seperate book or into book 3
You know there's a search engine to the right, right? It's very easy to use.

Oh, and thanks for the ICE and Gear.

>>44051777
>Shinobi(ICE; uncommon)
"this is why we quarantine the hacker consoles after a job"

>Hot-Slot Chip(uncommon)
should have an "only once per hack" clause...

>>44051816
yes, BUT I mean that stuff like that could easily contradict itself in places and I'd like to hold off that stuff till the "official" things get ironed out...

>>44051838
You could just say you want me to post the link.

http://s4.zetaboards.com/LawfulNice/single/?p=8303988&t=10330808

>>44051811
Yep.

>>44052065
yeah, but I'm lazy(in a selective sort of way...)

I don't even know why I'm making things for netrunners...I'd be making Rigger shit if I possibly could...

>>44052173
Just shut up and do it. You don't know whether or not you can until you try.

>>44052173
If I get put on desk duty tomorrow I'll give it a looking through...

>>44053095
Just the kind of hard-worker we need in this business.

Okay, now then.

Time to review more stuff.

But I'm not too much in the mood for more exalts.

So...

I'm going to be disappointed a lot.

I'm going to review the races.

So to start with: the ARACHNE

Do you mind if I tell you a story?

About the race in 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons that ended up being replaced by the dragonborn.

DnD 4e was going to have a race of talking lions as one of the new races. Not lion people, talking lions. Quickly in development they discovered something: it's annoying to design equipment around let alone having them interact with the world in a meaningful way without having wierd-ass-shit like free psychic powers or something.

So, overly monstrous stuff is kind of a bag of worms. How much so? Well...

At best, you get characters who don't fit the standard mold and seem to want to be standing out for the sake of standing out. At worst, you end up with fluff not even lining up with mechanics and stupid shit like hit locations not lining up at all.

At least thi-kreen treated the extra arms as weaker than the primary and mostly exist as a way to get a faster quick-draw.

The art and implications that they're really driders isn't too amazing either, but my continual interaction with people who like these kinds of races (either furries or way too into monstergirls) is really making it hard for me to not judge this (and many other races) poorly.

So I'm going to skip this race for two reasons:

Annoyingly non-standard causing it to actively clash with day to day living and fluff (how do they use bathrooms? How do they handle cybernetic locomotion? How do they operate vehicles like cars?)

I'm reminded too much of monstergirl and furry shit.

Again, I'm not reviewing it because I think it's shit. I'm not reviewing it because I know I'll look at it poorly and give a bad review.

>>44055002
That sounds like a smart decision on their part, I don't believe you!

>>44055520
75% of 4e was made by correcting bad decisions in the earlier stages of 4e's development. The truenamer, binder and shadowcaster were originally the way they were going to have magic in 4e work.

Okay, I skipped the arachne.

So on to the next race. The CATFOLK

AT LEAST NO MORE CATBOI FUCKTOIS

But seriously, CATholisim is a stupid pun and goes directly at odds with the entire alignment system going on. Unless you're planning on creating an actual pantheon for their cat-gods, do try to casually add extra gods to the setting by way of race fluff.

The stat bonuses are fine. The skill bonuses are also fine. Nothing terrible.

The power is a tiny bit much. A racial power is roughly worth 2 feats, or 200 xp. Getting catfall, Dark Sight and a situational movement boost looks like, to me, a bit much. Dark Eldarin don't even get Dark Sight, and they're based on Drow in part.

The rest of the fluff is fine.

>>44054595
well, my knee is all fucked up since I tapped it a little with a sledgehammer, and my usual job is watching a machine do work for me so it's less lazy than it sounds.

>>44055880
dullahan pls

is there a way to play a spooky skeleton in this game?

>>44056258
Promeathean refluffed as Lich.
Wraith.
The homebrewed Dulahan race maybe?
Homebrewed Warforged race refluffed.

>>44056322
>Wraith.
I'll take it

Dullahan and warforged are too much of a stretch though

>>44055002
>I'm not reviewing it because I think it's shit.
This is also a review. Just not a particularly good one.
I agree though.

>>44057051
It is a succient review and that race needs no in depth reviewing of it.

>>44055002
yeah, I'd have prefered a spider-race with the fluff that Arachne have to be roughly humanoid, tall, slender, either very hairy or shiny chitinous, with a face that's somewhat buggy(extra eyes, pedipalps) with 4 spider arms sprouting from their back(high dex penalty to use anything not meant for them).

with spinnerets at the small of the back.

>>44058931
needs a massive overhaul in my opinion, but then, I like spiders

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I'm disappointed that dullahans didn't have a reference to Count Brocken

you know, RAW in book 2 combined with the Rigger class actually make becoming a "bio-drone-rigger" startlingly easy

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>>44059760
Y'know, having not known of this character before I put Dullahan in, I agree. I'm disappointed, too.

>>44052238
>>44052173
all right, my first attempt at rigger shit that doesn't appear to be in the books

Man-Jack(uncommon)
>essentially a small case containing batteries, servo-motors, a camera, and a remote link the MAN-JACK is a simple solution to the question of rapid installation security. a Tech-Use TN=15 test installs a weapon in the Jack' and a Tech-Use TN=10 test(and a couple of minutes) can install this small auto-turret anyplace reasonably level. to use the onboard weapon remotely uses Tech-Use in place of the ballistics skill. the Man-Jack can also be set to fire on anything that moves in it's target zone, any sources of heat or light or vibration using a default balistics skill of 3

someone in the rigger thread mentioned Meda-bots and I think I'll combine them with WarJacks/SteamJacks (Warmachine strategy game.)

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Are there any artifact versions of the Book 2 bionics? I'm specifically wondering about the machinator array.

>>44060251
you know..there isn't really all that much that I can think of that CAN'T be rigged using the Vehicle Rules in book 2 and the Rigger class track...not without over-complicating the system...even a small walker-servitor can be made easily enough from scratch in the system...

thoughts?
suggestions?

>>44061272
The Obtain Familiar and Divine Bond feats can have their effects represented by 'vehicles' bought with a VP budget.

>>44061216
Seconding this. Artifact voidskin is a thing i want to invest in.

>>44050513
IT'S LIFTING AMERICAN YOU SAVAGE!

>>44062920
not a rigger of straps cables and slings...

a JuryRigger, or maker of complicated things from scratch and duct tape...

>>44063307
Clearly it's Decking American.

>>44056192
Okay, time to review the DULLAHAN

The fluff tries to hard to enable a certain character from a certain manga and anime about a certain type of girls and everyday living with them, including one common personality trait being "eighth-grader-syndrome."

Stats are okay. I'm not 100% sure why stealth is a skill they get though.

The power is just strange, and almost a weaker version of an exalt's "Don't Die" mechanic...

I'm not sure if it's too strong for a racial power or not. So, if I'm this unsure, I put it in the "Okay to play test" portion of okay.

But please less monstergirl references.

And now for the DUSKLINGS.

...and it has a midna pic.

And I'm okay with that. Am I a hypocrite? I don't know.

The intro fluff has them as fun loving characters, almost like 4e Gnomes rather than DtD's Tinker Gnomes.

The stat bonuses are okay, but the power is underwhelming.

A specialty in a skill they already get a bonus in doesn't help the race seem more than a stealth race. The Dark Sight trait's a nice start, but I'd suggest finding an alternate feat-alike to include.

Then the rest of the fluff and they become tsundere spooky kinder.

Great.

Well, we can't love all fluff, and we need a variety of fluff to keep things goi-

Okay I can't.

I have an irrational hate of kender.

Please no.

>>44064439
>irrational hate of kender
>hate of kender
>irrational

Now on to the FAIRY.

It's good, okay and nothing to horribly terrible. Flyer may or may not be too powerful depending on the environment.

Flight in rpgs tends to do 1 of 2 things: force people to use ranged weapons exclusively, or sit and do nothing.

BUT, DtD is the kind of game that gives incredibly kind jumping rules compared to many other rpgs.

All in all, I can't bitch about the Fairy.

So let's bitch about the GITHYANKI

Everything is fine EXCEPT the power.

Two feats and a free piece of equipment that doesn't count against the normal limits. 1 feat alone with the equipment would have been fine. Hell, not giving the Hatred (Mind Flayers) gives players a chance to put (Mind Flayers) down for when they get the feat in one of their class progressions.

You don't need to give them EVERYTHING that the base race represents.

On to the GITHZERAI

Again, everything's fine except the power. Being under the effects of a permanent regeneration spell is too powerful ALONE for a racial power. Look at the fucking Ork as inspiration for what a racial power that heals does.

Again, don't try to translate 1 for 1 the things a race does in a show. Alter it for the sake of game balance and stability.

>>44065197
So, is there just one anon who edits this game?

How active is he? The reviews make me feel like there's a lot of options that could use some more thought, and way, WAY too much bloat.

I don't care if things are numerically balanced, but I don't like redundancy.

>>44065255
Book 3 is just a compilation of a whole bunch of homebrew from the forums; from what I've gathered, it's mostly copy-pasted.

It's not trying to be a supplement in the way Book 2 did, it's just a collection of everything people have made in a more accessible format.

It sure would be cool if it could be a supplement like Book 2 was, though. It was nice getting all those new subsystems, even if they were flawed - Book 3 just has a whole bunch more of stuff that we already had rather than anything truly new. Hell, the most inventive things in there are shit like racial paragon feats, alternate exaltations and sword schools/gun kata, and some of the more complex races. That's still not exactly groundbreaking, though.

>>44065453
So what are the prospects on fixing/organizing the errors?

Months? Years? Never?

>>44065453
Did I ever mention how I wanted to make an 8th edition one day? It was for only an hour, but the main goals were: 1. Get all the math rounded out and make sense 2. Add more games to the mix. 3. Changing cores systems not to make them better, but for the sake of "a new edition for a new generation"

I decided against that.

>>44065501
Go to the forums and bug people in their threads. Be the change you want in the world.
Maybe bug the Book 3 thread specifically if it's some larger overarching thing you want to complain about - the overabundance of monstergirls, for instance.

As for the release date, that probably depends on how much new material there is and how much needs to be changed, combined with the schedule of Doc (the guy compiling the PDFs).

A lot of it is probably already fixed and just not in the book for whatever reason - there's a lot of crossover between these threads and the forums, after all.

>>44065627
That's what I'm saying, if it gets fixed and never updated in the book, it'll be impossible to ever share the system with people.

Thinking about the situation, I can see why people care about the constant support from Paizo

I don't mind monstergirls, or unequal math, but are there actual fixes that were made and just haven't made it into the edition? And never will?

That's frustrating to approach.

>>44064439
If you're reviewing Duskling you should also review Youma since they kind of go together.

>>44065255
There's just one guy who compiles stuff and makes layout and visual decisions, as well as having the final say in what goes in. In theory, many people edit it but not really.

>>44065518
>hanging cores systems not to make them better
Never a good idea desu

>>44065926
Well, they'd be things like dropping from multiples of 50 to multiples of 1 for XP costs.

Maybe switching combat to something like Exalted 3e's or LotW's type combat.

Classes becoming skill trees like in FFG's Star Wars rpgs.

Exalts being changed into power groups with multiple power stats effectively.

Replacing 'core' races with other races.

Stupid shit that would make the game different, and something I'd enjoy but not necessarily something that would make the game better overall.

>>44066030
Well that all sounds better to me though.

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>>44066030
I disagree, that would probably make the game better overall.

>>44066030
>Stupid shit that would make the game different, and something I'd enjoy but not necessarily something that would make the game better overall.

Interesting but true.

>>44066030
>Classes becoming skill trees like in FFG's Star Wars rpgs.
>Exalts being changed into power groups with multiple power stats effectively.
Not sure about these but the rest much gusta

>>44066030
I don't have a problem with XP costs. Its the same either way and bigger numbers make it feels bigger.

And I like this combat system. I can actually remember it for one thing.

I don't know how the rest would work and I'm too lazy to care atm.

>>44066341
Long story short on combat: attacks help build up towards a super-powerful finisher.

>>44066612
Yes and what's the problem with that?
>OPINIONS!

>>44066658
Either I didn't say the description properly for what I'd do, or you didn't read the reply chain.

The other anon was talking about how he likes the current combat.

My reply was on the new combat system would be that instead of getting people down to lower health and then serious damage with wound effects, you'd be trying to build up your ability to execute either a powerful attack (if you don't have talents/sword schools/gun kata/magic/other shit) or to be able to get your super-attack off at maximum effect (if you do).

>>44066732
Also it'd let me keep resilience from being too much of a fuck you mechanic.

>>44066850
>>44066732
No, instead anything that hastens full power attacking would become the fuck you mechanic. Which there would be you fucking know there would be don't lie

>>44066909
What?

Okay in exalted 3e's combat system? Runs on how Final Fantasy Dissidia works. You have two types of attacks: Brave (in Dissidia) or Withering (in Exalted) attacks which build up your damage for HP (Again Dissidia) or decisive attacks (again, in Exalted 3e). Those first attacks also LOWER the damage an opponent is building up.

So the best way to lower the damage an opponent is going to throw at you? Attacking him with a brave/withering attack.

When you you use one of those finisher attacks, you drop down to 0 and need to build back up.

>>44037528
holy shit thats scary

>>44067475
It's still 3 lower than what it would be at level 5 to get the rest of those numbers. BUT to also get that requires at least 2 class tracks.

>>44037528

Add Enlarge Person to give yourself one more size before Warstrider form, and a Machinator Array for +1 Resilience. So then you're looking at..

Matron Dryad (Size 6)
then cast Transmutation 5 Dragonform (+3 size),
Cast Transmutation 2 Enlarge Person (+1 Size)
be a Promeathean and go into Warstrider (double size => 20. 20 size = 12 Resiliance),
wear Power Armour (+1 resiliance),
have the Sturdy Asset (+1 resiliance),
have Stone Dragon 4 (+1 resiliance)
have a Machinator Array (+1 resiliance)

Puts you at 16 before any book 3 nonsense, if you're willing to spend the XP healing five also gives Divine Power for another resiliance. Pretty easy to do since you'll most likely want to go Dual Class Paladin/Cleric, since you get a good deal of feat overlap for fast advancement, plus Paladin gets the most out of that Power Armor you've got on, while Cleric gives you even more hp for whatever does get through.

Next review: the GOLIATH

It's no surprise I fucking hate size bloat by way of the Promethean final power and general resistance cheese. I also don't like intentional number inflation in rpgs.

Poor TORG, we missed you.

Anyway. I think MOST flaws with the Warstider could be solved by making it +4 size and not 2x size.

Enough of that: on to the stats.

Being all physical stat boosts is kind of unimpressive to be honest. Maybe replace Constitution with Willpower just to create some variety in the options available.

The power is monkey grip and is kind of neat I guess. It also comes with a weakness mechanic in that armor is rarer for them.

Other than that it's okay I guess.

Next is the IKTHYS

Fish people. Other than their power being a set of restrictions as well as powers it's okay. Races shouldn't be excessively mechanically complex though, and this is just pushing it.

>>44070176
You did the math on Size wrong. (Size 20+ level 5)/2+1=13.5 Resilience is rounded up so it's 14. Then add the +4 from the abilities. For a total of 18.

>>44070430
There's an alternate Ikthys (called Sahaugin I think) that has been proposed on the forum. Thought I'd mention that.

Unicorns and Warforged have already been changed/updated from their Book 3 counterparts. Most recent versions are on the forum.

>>44070537
I'm calling Arachne clause on unicorns. Won't be reviewing them because I'll just be shitting on them too much for it to be reasonable.

I want to play this game so bad. Is anyone doing like, IRC games for this shit?

Okay, Kython.

Time for the most customizable race in the 3rd book.

Fluff is fine and something I'd include

Stats are okay. The power gives one feat and defines your limit of feats with the form keyword, but Form feats tend to have a slight edge on normal feats... I really can't judge them until I read through all of their feats.

They're okay so far.

Next is the LAIKA. Dog people to the Catfolk's cat... folk....

Nothing glaring until I check their racial feats. The two feats they get are okay.

And now we get to the LIMULIAN YEAHHHHHHH!!!!

Also known as: Most Likely to Kidnap a Kython and use it's genetic structure to create Symbiote Orks.

With mouth laser beams.

The stats boosts are fine, and their Power, "Enemy Crab", is pretty nice. And they're pretty big but not quite Giant Enemy Crabs.

LIZARDMAN:

Fine, but I'm starting to spot a few size 5s popping up more often. And racial powers usually being "2 feats" and less powers that are active like the Eldarin, Dark Eldarin, Elf, so and so and so.

But granted, my treatment of them may be an example why.

I don't know. I'm rambling.

And it's only NOW that I realized I skipped the GOBLIN

And it actually has a power. A neat one too that deals with technology.

It's pretty cool. Fluff is fine, stats are fine. (Races are pretty formulaic so most problems tend to pop up when people try to break formulas.)

Bump. Someone mentioned Warjacks, so I'm statting generic battle robots. Smaller ones are basically Medabots.

>>44075567
welp, it saves me having to do it so there's that...

perhaps calling them mobile frames as a reference joke?

>>44075567
might also be that you just stat generic utility frames. make them so they have lots of mod slots for "discerning customers"

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>>44055002

>>44077421
2 spooky 4 me

>>44078029
meh, it's what I would have gone for when I read the race descriptions...I got no problem with Mon Musume, but the drider configuration is kinda dumb in my opinion...

spider people can be done better...

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Would refluffing Daemonhost work for a Jinchūriki style Exaltation?

>>44078910
Fluff-wise it's already almost there.

Mechanics-wise they're very different, though - perhaps an Atlantean would work better, given how they're more the "magic" exaltation and give a bunch of boosts to that? The Daemonhost just has Demonic Tutor and Unholy Might, which aren't that much in the grand "all the chakra" scheme of things.
Also, of course, I don't know if I've actually seen an exaltation that goes for the whole "risk losing control of self when stealing power" aspect from the early-series Gin Qi Rukias.

Perhaps think less about the existing fluff and more about the existing mechanics, and compare them to what you want? What is it you actually want from the "Jinchuuriki" concept; the huge MP pool, the regeneration, the beastmode, the uncontrollable rages?

Come think of it, Dragonblooded could probably work pretty well. As could Werewolf, perhaps, if you focused more on the rages and transformations than magic.

>>44078399
Spider people. spider. people. tastes like spiders. walk like people.

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>>44080589
boink like lamia though

>>44080728
do that snake bitch have freckles!?

>>44080728
How does she keep turning around?

>>44081078
I... I don't know... Wait, yes I do.

DAEMONHOST! (Violating physics/geometry to incite lust.)

>>44080589
exactly, and they can do the things that people do and the things that spiders do too, while being the repugnant Deamon-god cursed things that they're fluffed to be.

we can just claim that event the gods are mum about why everything is "humanoid"

>>44080944
Bitches love freckles

>>44081927
As one, I can say this is 100% accurate

Before I get to my next phase of reviews.

Which would be a better name for a theoretical retro-clone for the fantasy version of Dungeons: the Dragoning?

Dungeons: the Dragoning: Fantasy: Reloaded

or

Dungeons: the Dragoning: The Dark Ages: Reloaded

Anyway. Time to review more races.

The MINOTAUR

They're big and have horns. Don't care for them concept-wise, but they aren't stupid.

Ophidian get the Arachne Clause.

Sphinx get super Arachne Clause

Same with Unicorns

Now we finally get to the Vanara. Monkey people. The stats are fine, but the power is annoying.

I really don't like being able to replace athletics with acrobatics for climbing. Sure it MAY seem appropriate for Monkeys because of the way they move in nature, but that's because they would still have good Athletics and not just good acrobatics.

Also Acrobatics is critical to combat while athletics isn't quite as much.

Next is the Warforged.

Don't care for them simply because Don't Die mechanics are strictly the realm of exalts and level 4-5 feats. I guess that would mean the Duhlahan would be unacceptable. I guess I'm okay with that.

Heck this seems like wanting to stack the Promethean's early powers with another Exalt.

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>>44087056
>Sphinx get super Arachne Clause
B-but muh sphinx

>>44088602
It doesn't even have hands

It's literally a race that can only effectively use unarmed combat or spellcasting, let alone how the fuck it's supposed to interact with the blatant science fantasy setting of DtD. How the fuck do they even read books?

>>44087056
>Dungeons: the Dragoning: Fantasy: Reloaded
Dungeons: of Dragoning: Dark Fantasy; sword-n-board

>arachne clause
would you complain as much if Arachne were >>44077421 shaped?

>>44089491
>would you complain as much if Arachne were >>44077421 shaped?

I would not complain.

>Dungeons: of Dragoning: Dark Fantasy; sword-n-board
The Reloaded line is a gag on the Savage Worlds version of Deadlands is called Deadlands: Reloaded including the post-apocalyptic setting: Deadlands: Hell on Earth: Reloaded.

If I wanted MORE colons, I'd also call it Revised Edition.

>>44087056
What precisely got you to Clause the ophidians?

>>44089704
Simply put: no legs, monstergirl crap, and obnoxious living needs that would either not come up (In which case why not snake people rather than snake-butts) or require serious alteration to the setting including how vehicles work (in which case it'd require more work to get them to work)

Remember, the Arachne clause isn't "They lack feet" it's "they seriously mess with the system or setting assumptions in some overt way"

Also I don't care for full monster-races (crux of the problem honestly.)

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>>44089744
How would you feel if they were more like DnD Yaun-Ti? More snake, less girl?

>>44089768
Well... that only overcomes the "Monstergirl crap" complaint. How do they interact with vehicles like cars? Do the vehicles in DtD40k7e just not have footpedals?

There'd still need to be setting alterations for them or they have some serious disadvantages UNLESS you go with the hand-wave option "It's just a game" (There's nothing wrong with that, just why care about them not being bi-pedal if you aren't going to explore that design-space?)

>>44089828
>>44089768
Perhaps changing the base animal...oh wait, we already have Lizardmen.

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>>44089744
>>44089828
So serpentmen because FEETZ?

>How do they interact with vehicles like cars? Do the vehicles in DtD40k7e just not have footpedals?

Maaaybe? There's no reason or anything saying that vehicles have to be 1-to-1 mimicking of earther vehicles.

>>44089828
>>44090077
There should probably be a line about them occupying twice as much room in passenger compartments, and not being able to drive anything that wasn't designed for/by them or has a Coffin System.

>>44087056
20th Anniversary Edition
ADVANCED
DUNGEONS
THE DRAGONING
RELOADED
STORY MASTER'S GUIDE

That's with things that you should probably be able to find and rip from the originals. Remember, while it's called WARHAMMER FANTASY the logo doesn't have the "Fantasy" bit.

Also, of course, make sure to split it into a shitload of books. At least two to start with - one for SMs and one for players. Not entirely sure what the player guide should be called, though.

>>44088602
The Ophidian and arachni at least have hands man

>>44090495
Hero's Handbook

Duh.

>>44089768
What about a compromise and resembling the Xcom viper?

As I recall when I protested the unicorn and pitched the centaur alt, they said that the lack of hands would "create interesting role play opportunities"

Some of these I feel would work better if this was a tactics setting and not an rpg

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>>44090575

The biggest thing about the Arachne clause isn't just "They're bad player character's" or what-ever.

The biggest cause is I really don't care for overly monstrous PCs.

And it's a personal taste deal, that I can't give a reasonable review of them because I have an unreasonable dislike of them.

>>44091414
Fair, personally when I have a monster race I feel they should look monstery, the difference between a cute "naga" and a snake faced monster with arms

>>44091592
Eh, regardless if it's a cute face with a scaley ass or just scales all over, I don't care for either.

>>44091659
Ahh so this is just an insistence that certain things just should not be playable

>>44091697
Kind of?

I'm saying I can't fairly review them because I just don't care for them, and I think they'll negatively impact play at my table...

Yeah I guess that's what I'm saying.

>>44091766
What do you think of the Dragonborn from Book 1?

>>44091592
Honestly I don't have a problem with them, but I feel that there are WAY too many cutesy monstergirl races being made. If there were only like 2 it wouldn't be bad.

>>44089828
>How do they interact with vehicles like cars? Do the vehicles in DtD40k7e just not have footpedals?
It's simple. They operate the upper controls and have a Gnome, Halfling, or Half-incorporeal Wraith deal with the lower controls.

>>44091799
They're fine, and can be fun.

Nothing about them gets in a way of the game or feels like trying to be special for the sake of it.

>>44091766
I can agree with what your saying somewhat. While I don't think they in and of themselves would be bad for the game (after balance), the fact a large majority seem like they'd attract people with fetishes for the races is a downside.

>>44091859
I accept that as an inevitability of role play in general, I just make sure that kind of player doesn't reach the table or keeps that side of himself under a lid at the table

>>44091859
I just find them overly complex and actively go against the relative simplicity of races in DtD.

Having to give 5 extra lines of new rules text for a race actively goes against design precedents.

>>44092191
I can see that, one of the reasons I'm working on my own little side project

>>44090495
Okay then...

Races of 20AEDtDR Heroes Handbook

Human (Able to take the Paragon, Chosen, Daemonhost, and Vampire Exaltations.)
Syrne (Always Atlantean)
Warforged (Always Promethean, racial stats modified to better fit)
Eldarin (Able to take Werewolf or Chosen) (Werewolf because I like the idea of the intellectual servant race of the Syrne are actually bred to become werewolves)
Dwarves (Always Paragon (they eschew magic))
Dragonborn (Always Dragonblooded, racial power may change to better fit)
Ork (Able to take "Werehog" or Paragon)
Kobold (Able to take Dragonblooded)
Kenku (Able to take Wraith, they are the ghosts of a long lost race who serve as mentors for others.)
Halflings (Always Paragons)

"Rules" that say you may have alternate Exaltations and that 'Always' actually only means 95% of the time. And then saying that forcing your players to stick to stereotypes is terrible SMing. They'll do it automatically if not forced to.

Classes will take longer to decide, but there's 'guidelines' for starting a campaign in one. Also any energy weapons can be called Syrneth or Gnomish Magitechnology.