Sup, /tg/. /k/ here. I'd like to play a tabletop/pen and paper RPG that will cater to my nigh-autistic obsession with and knowledge of guns. I was recommended Delta Green. I know the cthulhu mythos, and am told that Delta Green is basically that + x-files + operators. Was this correct? Also Delta Green/ cthulhu thread, I guess.
There was Friday Night Firefight, IIRC. There's also another /k/commando around who used d20 to stat all the guns.
>>43987779
Thanks. When you say all the guns, do you mean all of them?
>>43987850
No, because he didn't stat the one I invented just now.
You'll never have your wish.
>>43987885
Really you'd only need a formula for cartridge+ barrel length, and rate of fire in shots/round of combat.
>>43987850
A pretty damn good chunk.
SweetSoulBro is actually still working on Ops & Tactics, and occasionally he swings by here.
Look at GURPS Tactical Shooting. Really in depth rules and tons of options for operating.
Nobody has any input for me on DG?
Twilight 2000.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Twilight_2000
Enjoy scrounging for ammo for legacy hardware and learn the joys of fueling vehicles with alcohol.
GURPS
DG slightly abstracts guns with KILL DAMAGE; basically an overkill mechanic for excessively powerful weapons where there's a chance it'll just straight up smear a motherfucker. Kill Damage is also used for things like suppressing fire.
>>43987911
But action and reciprocation type can also vary muzzle velocity and thus impact energy.
>>43988058
DG is not that heavy on the op tactics. For that you want Ops & Tactics.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ops_and_Tactics
DG is good for all the spy shit, NSA, The Activity surveillance, DEVGRU missions, men in black stuff.
>>43987670
Look into Phoenix Command
>>43988973
'ppreciate it. I really just wanna slot motherfuckers with 10mm, like in the OP, but it looks like both would work.
>>43987946
>>43988904
It's trotter out every thread, but it's actually the right answer, at least in this instance. GURPS is written by people who know their guns and pretty accurately put that down on the table. With their other books, you can combine these rules modularly with magic, mecha, space opera, dystopian future, and countless other genres and setting types.
>>43989061
Yeah, just this once, I grudgingly agree: GURPS Tactics is pretty good for this genre.It's shit for everything else though.
Ops and Tactics. Possibly the most autistic gun centered RPG there is. I can say that if you get past the character creation you are going to like the game. Just google the game and follow the links.
>>43989021
I want to fuck everything in sight up with this pic-related motherfucker, but I don't know of a game that supports this kind of thing.
>>43989173
Looks about the same as an OICW, kind of.
What's the (theoretical) gun that uses a basic round that can be configured within the chamber as the need arises, eg, armor-piercing, or sabot, or flechette, or airburst grenade?
>>43987670
try GURPS
I know that gets brought up all the time but it's a simulationist system so chances are it'll cover every firearm you can imagine though I personally frown on trying to assign damage values to specific calibers and such.
>>43989230
I've heard it called dial-a-gun. Be pretty tough to do that with nanomachines, or something. I think there was something like it in Old Man's War
>>43989021
Ops and Tactics has 10mm Master Race.
It also has .38 Super for those of us with real taste in our obscure but awesome calibers.
>>43987670
GURPs will do it, but a lot of people don't like the system.
Delta Green I have never played, but I've heard only good things.
Ops & Tactics is a native /tg/ game based on D20, which is a system 90% of gamers already know, making it very convenient.
Cyberpunk and Friday Night Firefight have very tight combat systems based on FBI data.
Call of the Void (AKA Ballad of the Laser Whales) recently came out of the Song of Swords threads, and it's basically to guns what SoS was to swords.
Ops & Tactics and CotV are the two I'd recommend, because they're native to /tg/ and you can actually find the fuckers who made them to ask them stuff.
D20 modern has a HUUUUGE book of guns. I think it's called the weapons locker, or something like that.
You could use it in junction with the other D20 books to do just about anything.
>>43989514
Weapons Locker is a steaming pile of shit, though.
>>43989611
Note: Ops and Tactics, though loosely based on d20 Modern has addressed the issue I'm about to talk about, along with many others, because SSB is pretty cool.
As my personal favorite example (because I know the actual capabilities of the weapon), it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to utilize the M16A2 against a point target at 550 meters (the maximum effective range of the weapon against a point target), due to the way d20 Modern handles range increments.
The range increment of the M16A2 is 80 feet.
If you have the Far Shot feat, that goes up to 120 feet.
550 meters is 1804.46 feet.
We'll call it a clean 1800, just for easy math.
1800 divided by 120 is 15.
15 range increments.
By the rules of d20 Modern, you CANNOT make attacks beyond ten range increments.
>>43989449
Laser Whales is basically just FNFF with a D10 pool system instead of ye olde D6s. The combat is good, but the rest of the game just isn't there.
Also it's hard to take the pretense of realistic gunfighting seriously given the setting. When I thing tacticool operator, I don't think Nazis on flying boats in space.
>>43989449
Gurps roools, Delta Green background, use available resources to straight up convert stuff, or figure it out yourself.
There are guides for converting COC to 3E gurps, and for 3e gurps, to 4. Although some things are basically the same so it's not that hard. After a while you also get a sense of what "makes sense" or would be appropriate. The relevant rule books for making a tacticool, gritty campaign also have rules of thumb for skill levels in combat abilities.
So in practice, your would be Mulder and Scullies will be doing pretty good because they probably have at least FBI tier training versus a lot of amateurs and untrained guys (cultists, angry Deep One Hybrids with Fudd guns, etc. Although some will be better, of course.) At the same time they will have definite limits at that skill level.
There is also the issue that they will have to get up pretty early to get one over on some Mythos creatures or old sorcerers/etc, and pack some serious heat to do it. Greater Deep Ones are fucking hardcore, for instance.
>>43987670
>>43988989
Seriously, like this Anon said, if you'll describe yourself as autistic when it comes to guns, Phoenix Command is the game for you.
>http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?534963-Phoenix-Command-It-s-Awesome
>>43989514
>suggesting d20
Your kind isn't welcome here.
Here's a present, /k/omrades.
>>43990223
Damn.
OP
The most realistic game when talking about firearms is phoenix command.
The game phoenix command was made by a guy that works for nasa and do ballistic stuff for cops.
Phoenix command was going to be a dumbed down version of his previous game called spectrum small arms, but with all the books phoenix command has (spectrum small arms has just 3 I think) phoenix command.
PS: Spectrum small arms is a dumbed down version of rhand morninstar mission that is more realistic than phoenix command but rhand morningstar missions doenst do firearms, just meele and archery, there is also sword path glory that is even more realistic than rhand (but its not firearms) .
talking about sword path glory, they made a book called advanced sword path glory or something like that with extra damage tables and etc..., this book was so realistic that his rival real life ballistic companies started to use it and reverse engineer the tables to make to make their ballistic programs
>>43990293
PS: some guy from a phoenix command forum is making a retroclone called firebird headquarters that will be more realistic than phoenix and spectrum small arms, having rules of both stuff and more (as some example his rpg will have damage tables for when the targed is at prone position)
>>43989230
That sounds like a Lawgiver the weapon of choice for one Judge Dredd
>>43990293
Hugh Hefner played Phoenix Command.
I think that's all the endorsement you need.
>>43989728
FWIW, Far Shot is meant to stack with using a scope - they each have the same effect (x1.5, or +50%, to range increment) and so double the total range increment when you use Far Shot with a scoped weapon. So the M16A2 featured in the book can shoot up to 1600ft, in the right circumstances.
More generally anyway your issue is not that range increments are bad but that the range increments chosen for the weapons are not actually representative. There will always be a certain range at which the GM has to say "you cannot realistically hit anything at this distance" and the rules tell you how to work out what that is.
My memory reliably informs me that a third party supplement for d20M by the name of Ultramodern Firearms exists, and it was much better than weapons locker. I believe the guy who wrote it took the principle of looking up the longest range anyone had ever effectively used a particular weapon and basing the range increment on that (rounding for neatness, obv.)
>>43989514
you mean Worldguns.RU, the book?
>>43990223
holy fuck anon I've been trying to dig a copy of this up for years
infinite thanks
do you also have FF&S?
>>43990477
>not that range increments are bad but that the range increments chosen for the weapons are not actually representative
That's actually what I was trying to get across.
As for UMF, yeah, it's a touch better, but it's still d20 Modern and its godawful feat taxes for on basic competence, ridiculously slow shooting in combat, et cetera (all stuff O&T addresses to varying degrees in varying ways).
>>43989061
gurps is nothing compared with phoenix command, and would be hard to have phoenic command level of detail with gurps game, because as some example the phoenix command damage tables just works with humanoid beings,
Phoenix command has animals tables on a book, (in the game) when hitting a animal its like you are hitting a thing with a weapon that penetrate less (or more) and do less (or more).
And there is no rules for that, you must check a table with the animals listed there and use the ones there (or not include animals).
This table info (damage and penetration that "will be changed") is based on weight (and animal skin also, I think. When using on a gurps like game, you would need to include some formula and players would need to make the math everytime they make a race
>>43990543
>do you also have FF&S?
Fist Fuck & Sandwiches?
>>43989514
Weapons locker is a fucking waste of money and paper. Fuck you for suggesting that piece of shit.
>>43990616
Fire, Fusion and Steel. it's like 3G, but for Traveller
>>43990577
I believe the official line on shooting speed is "sure, you can use up more bullets in a shooting action if you want, but your BAB defines the number of *effective* attacks you can make per round..."
The system, like D&D, has a lot of problems to be sure. For what it's intended to do though (simulate action movies) it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
>>43990669
I thought I had a big folder of Traveller stuff, but it only has the core rulebook in it. I'm legitimately upset by this revelation.
>>43987670
Some guys I knew that were in the army said they always preferred Twilight 2000. Mind you that was 15 years ago.
>>43990762
damn, that's unfortunate man
>>43990818
I can confirm this.
if I ever meet a 100% pure civilian who plays t2k I will be completely shocked
>>43989728
so.....a real life basically trained marine is an impossibility in that system?
>>43990818
>>43990857
Man, T2K is huge in the military, isn't it? My older brother is a Marine and he and a bunch of guys he served with played it.
>if I ever meet a 100% pure civilian who plays t2k I will be completely shocked
I've never been in the military and played T2K.
>>43990675
>but your BAB defines the number of *effective* attacks you can make per round
So, it takes six seconds to aim and make an effective attack?
Bull.
Fucking.
Shit.
If you're taking six god damn seconds to line up a shot, you fucking SUCK.
>>43990905
>My older brother is a Marine
there you have it.
literally everybody I've ever met who plays T2k is connected to the military SOMEHOW
in my last group it was
>reservist
>national guard
>former marine
>former marine's younger brother
>me (enlisted, got nailed by a drunk driver a week before I shipped out to basic, busted my knee so bad I couldn't go through with it)
>guy from a military family who got DQ'd for a skin condition
>>43990972
>http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?534963-Phoenix-Command-It-s-Awesome
that sounds like one hell of a group...I can never get my fag friends to play anything anymore
>>43990986
I'm sorry anon, that sucks
>>43987670
RuneQuest 6 has great firearms rules, which add to already great combat rules. With the free RuneQuest Essentials off and the free firearms supplement, you have a really good game you can download and play modern combat games in. The rest of the rules fit easily to, but the careers are more fantasy/historical.
>>43991066
it really does anon....hopefully at some point I can get them to start playing again that or I can find a new group
>>43990972
Anyone have the Twilight 2K pdfs?
>>43991417
/hwg/ has them ALL
>>43926126
>>43990669
>>43990762
http://www.4shared.com/office/bnA49sW3/Traveller_-_Imperium_Games_-_T.html
Have this.
It might solve some problems regarding your collection, too.
>>43991651
It's Benny!!!
>>43990818
>>43990972
>>43991417
What is it about Phoenix Command and Twilight 2000 that make them such appealing games?
Are Mud & Sucking Chest Wounds Simulator games that much fun?
>>43992145
>Are Mud & Sucking Chest Wounds Simulator games that much fun?
Yes.
>>43989173
At that point, what's the soldier for?
>>43992145
>What is it about Phoenix Command and Twilight 2000 that make them such appealing games?
Having to actually outsmart the enemy.
You can't just rely on your awesome numbers and your inherent superiority to carry you through. You actually have to approach combat tactically, instead of just standing there trading full attacks.
>>43992364
>Having to actually outsmart the enemy.
>You can't just rely on your awesome numbers and your inherent superiority to carry you through. You actually have to approach combat tactically, instead of just standing there trading full attacks.
Fucking. This.
>>43992364
That scared little 12 year old camelfucker with the old .303 bolt action rifle? He can and will ruin your fucking day if you underestimate him. The fatal funnel is real in these games. If you have to go into a house, it's a genuinely nerve-wracking experience being the first guy in and just PRAYING there isn't some South American narcofuck sitting in the corner with an AK waiting to light your whole team up as you come through.
>>43992284
Deciding when to pull the trigger.
>>43992364
>You actually have to approach combat tactically, instead of just standing there trading full attacks.
OK, I understand the basic concept, but in practice no soldier IRL goes around with 20x60 ballistic tables in their head for wind conditions and ambient temperature effects on bullet arcs, nor would players (barring photographic memory). It's false precision.
As for tactics like maneuver, cover and suppression, lots of games have that without needing 30 pages of tables, so you can still get your tactical fix that way. I just don't see what Phoenix et al bring to the table that is so superior to GURPS or Cyberpunk 2020. Both of these latter games have lethal firearm combats that necessitate smart, tactical thinking over trading full attacks.
>>43992574
>no soldier IRL goes around with 20x60 ballistic tables in their head for wind conditions and ambient temperature effects on bullet arcs
No, because nature does all that. The table isn't there for you to autistically reference at all times. It's there to check against to determine what happens when you pull that trigger.
>>43992574
>OK, I understand the basic concept, but in practice no soldier IRL goes around with 20x60 ballistic tables in their head for wind conditions and ambient temperature effects on bullet arcs, nor would players (barring photographic memory). It's false precision.
Those tables aren't for the players to reference, and not before they shoot either.
They're mostly for the GM, you know, the guy who is facilitating the world around the PCs and how it functions, and how it relates to their actions.
>>43992657
>>43992730
Oh, I see, it's only for the GM, not for players to try and figure out the best shot placement at which hour of the day. Okay. Still, that's a lot of effort to simulate minute environmental conditions, none of which are probably 1/10th as important as training, morale or experience.
I guess I should read the damned game before making further comments.
Cyberpunk 2020 is your game.
>>43992574
>>43993423
no, CP2020 has a LOT of problems with it's gunfight rules, mostly to do with lethality; you get an unnaturally high percentage of OHKs. that and it presents no disadvantages to only ever using the biggest gun that you can find; there's absolutely no reason to use a 9mm over a .44
>>43992574
That looks really cumbersome to use. Probably worth it for air-burst though.
>>43988058
If your serious about your nigh-autism, DG might disappoint - it's not heavy on the tactics and hard sim. If you're shot, it hurts. A lot. You should avoid getting shot. That's about it.
On the other hand, the mechanics are solid enough to handle just about anything and loose enough for a good GM to fill in gory details without fear of breaking anything.
You can combine it with the Investigator Weapons-supplements for CoC, or crunch it to the hilt with RuneQuest-rules.
>>43994154
>Not going with the biggest gun.
Corpsec is gonna frag you with that attitude.
>>43989173
Eclipse Phase has smart guns and bullets
I think DG is really great for this. But before I explain why, let me state what DG is not: It does not feature expansive lists of weapon stats, sophisticated automatic or splash rules, or overly complex crunch about bullet types, barrel length, terminal ballistics, or trauma. It's a game.
When I think military done well, I think Steve's Planes & Mercs campaign about the Black Aces. The quality of such a story lies not in the mechanics used. They should offer tools to resolve the plot devices the GM needs, but they don't have to define the details. That's the GM's job. All the little details about weapon systems, tactics, the fog of war, the random pace of battle, types of injury and their consequences... it is all handled much better by a GM who knows what he's talking about, has done his research, can maybe offer user manuals and YT clips to make the players grasp what it is about, which details play into the tactical situation at any given time and make the story about that. Better than a game, however well made, that just offers arbitrary rules, the more detailed the more clunky.
And DG is the latest in a tradition of crunch (BRP) that delivers gritty randomness when called, but otherwise lets the GM do his thing. You can resolve even large firefights really quickly by rolling only the details PCs are involved in, and only on a level that prompts narration. Kill damage is a big help.
But if you insist on gamist mechanics, try ORE. It is fast and has hit zones.
>>43994154
>and it presents no disadvantages to only ever using the biggest gun that you can find
Bull, bigger weapons have little to no concealability rating. Sure, if you run it as a combat sim rather than an rpg, but then, it still fits with reality. Also, bigger guns do more damage because it fires more rounds per second and its bullets move with more force, but then again, you'll be reloading a smg or rifle more frequently than a pistol.
I mean, shit, have you even played the system?
(Honorable mention goes to "bigger guns" costing much much more)
>>43987670
Nothing compares to Phoenix Command in terms of complexity and realism.
It was written by rocket scientists.
Literally.
>>43990596
>and do less (or more).
damage
>>43992574
>OK, I understand the basic concept, but in practice no soldier IRL goes around with 20x60 ballistic tables in their head for wind conditions and ambient temperature effects on bullet arcs, nor would players (barring photographic memory). It's false precision.
phoenix command at least has some rules to try to remove some rpg aspects, there are rules to stop acting like robotic beings that act instantly.
There are other rules related I forgot
>>43987670
If you like guns and RPGs with guns in them, try Cyberpunk 2020. Or Friday Night Firefight if you want even more crunchy bits of violence.
You can very easily make it modern or (what I'd do) 80s-90s Violence.
>>43997865
>Friday Night Firefight if you want even more crunchy bits of violence.
FNFF is literally the combat system rulebook from the CP2013 box.
>>43997973
CP2013 has three booklets, including FNFF yes.
CP2020 includes Saturday Night Firefight, which is has wound levels but doesn't keep track of which limb is wounded and how, making it simpler to play overall.
I use SNFF for whole games, and run a PvP turn-based arena using FNFF, but I wouldn't use it for huge firefights as it really slows down the action.
>>43998067
>CP2020 includes Saturday Night Firefight
No it doesn't, the combat chapter is still called Friday Night Firefight, and it still has hit locations.
>>43998105
Yeah, but they're different.
CP2020 has hit locations, if you take 8+ in a body part, it is destroyed and you drop to deadly wound.
In 2013, depending on how much damage a body part takes, it becomes a type of wound. Cumulative wounds are added in a "worse and worse" way but you do keep track of say, a Serious Wound in the left leg which will have different effects than a Light Wound in the head.
In 2020 you have a general wound level, and that's it.
>>43998465
>CP2020 has hit locations, if you take 8+ in a body part, it is destroyed and you drop to deadly wound.
There's an alternative system in LUYPS that allows for crippling.
>>43987911
You would need bullet + powder charge + length of barrel, at a minimum. That would establish your muzzle velocity and ballistics, that would give you a baseline for range and damage.
Then action + workmanship can modify the accuracy and rate of fire, along with whatever sight and grip combination is used.
>>43990961
Or taking such an enormously ranged shot that you're needing to remember some shorthand math to figure out your drop and trajectory.
>>43990873
Would be like level twelve. In a system where twenty is the max.
If you try to make conpetent and somewhat realistic characters, they tend to be above leve ten due to the ridiculous feat taxes and basic competence shit (like burst firing an assault rifle) being locked behind a dozen of them.
>>43989230
>airburst grenade
That one makes it a bit tougher, but 12Ga can load pretty much anything you can cram into a shell.
>>44001214
What about HEAT loaded into 12GA? Probably isn't large enough to really do much but I'd like to think it'd be grand against robots.
>>44001247
It'll probably take a lot of armour on that robot before such things are necessary.
>>43987670
Given that asperger's syndrome is (somewhat clumsily) classed as autism, I'd remove that nigh- part and just learn to not be ashamed.
>>43998465
It's only "worse and worse" if wounds aren't treated with base triage. Basically accounting for bleed-out/infections. If you want to think of bleed-out mechanics as a negative, that's fine, but wound status does flatline when given base treatment.
>>43990223
>weapon design book
Someone reverse engineered phoenix command (almost everything related to weapon statting) to see how weapons were statted, you can follow the rules here and stat stuff not there
http://pccs.understairs.nl/weapondesign.html
there is some online statter that do most of the work for you on the same site
>>44001247
Shouldn't hardened slugs work just fine?
>>44004821
They'd definitely deliver a bump.
