>Magic
>YGO
>Pokemon
>Force of Will
>Coin-Flipping
>Buddyfight
>Hearthstone
>Vanguard
>Obscure Weeb games
So in terms of which games require the most skill and are the best from a competitive viewpoint, this is the correct order, right?
Of course Magic is the best from a competitive viewpoint. You can't have a competition without having players.
>>43970567
Weiss Schwarz is the most competitive game out there. But only if you're playing Standard format.
Out of the ones mentioned, Magic hands down is the best. It manages to have a deep and complex system with a lot of mechanical power without fucking it up with shit that doesn't make sense or doesn't really work. Most of the time, playing a game of Magic isn't that complex, but there's a whole underlying system that supports basically any sort of mechanic you can imagine (that makes sense) and makes the extremely precise and logical when it needs to be.
>>43970567
>YGO
>Scoring over anything ever
I'd put it below most obscure weeb games honestly. It only draws traction because it looks cool to twelve-year-olds and is already established, it has no redeeming qualities as a game.
>>43970567
Magic and Yugioh are fine, and Force of Will is a bit too new for me to make a call. The rest are pretty irrelevant.
>>43971542
Define competitive
>Not mentioning Netrunner
>no L5R
>no V:TES
>no Middle Earth CCG
>no Star Wars CCG
>no Duel Masters
OP is a fucking pleb
>>43971803
I assume OP didn't put dead games in that listRIP Duel Masters, you where too good for this world ;_;
>>43971873
Netrunner is more alive than half the games on his list
And even some dead games are better than alive garbage ones.
I dont think force of will is super competitive since the game favors red WAY to much atm, the best cards are red atm at least, but it is my fav to play atm
>>43970567
I would say Hearthstone takes more skill than buddyfight. Also I would add Netrunner between Magic and YGO or YGO and Pokemon, not 100% sure.
>Not mentioning any LCG/ECG
I haet you OP
>>43970567
I'd argue that Vanguard is so heavily luck based that being able to play it requires tons of skill to play when it's against you.
>>43970567
Magic, as a concept, is quite possibly the best competitive game ever designed. Best implemented, however, not really. You could do a lot worse though.
>>43976228
That's not how skill works.
>>43971542
The problem is that the decks are pretty much built the second a set is out.
Their set design team is pretty much a deck design team. That's how they balance and once a broken or powerful as fuck ability is released every set after the release is constantly weighed against it.
Weiss is fun. Weiss is pretty skill intensive in trying to guess the probability of the damage your produce.
However deck building is so fucking boring you might as well just pick up any other game up.
Oh and good luck if your favorite animu and mango set doesn't have the broken shit that makes any set worth taking. Nothing like getting into a card game about your favorite characters only to find out your characters suck.
>>43976626
Well I'm not saying that it's above Magic or even coin flipping, but it is more than Hearthstone because you have to account for luck for both players a lot more.
>>43970567
Yugioh above MTG imo.
>>43970567
Depends on how you define skill. In YGO and Pokemon most of the skill is in building a deck that "flows well" and knowing how to turn resources you don't want into the ones you do, and how to turn resources into results, which for some people may not come off as skillful, because it's kinda like following a flowchart.
Also as someone who really likes Buddyfight I'd love to hear your justification for why you placed it so low. Not to say I explicitly will disagree with you but I feel the game has a stigma to it that keeps people from trying it.
>>43971676
During the late 90s it actually had a larger presence than Magic.
>>43976722
Yugioh is weeb as it can get. Magic has senority and a non pathetic level. At least we dont have a magical loli themed set.
Also magic cant be weeb if its western
>>43976837
>YGO the most Weeb
>Not Weib Schwarz the card game of literal some series
>>43976722
I agree
>>43976837
>yugioh is weeb as it can get
Not while Bushiroad breaths. Even if you don't count Weiss Schwarz, which is literally a game based on different anime, there is still Vanguard
>>43976722
>>43977258
You are objectively wrong
>>43970567
>which games require the most skill
none. they're fucking card games, it's all luck of the draw, and having pockets deep enough to buy the Good Cards to allow you to win.
>>43977285
Because memewords like 'objectively' make your assertion more valid.
I just like the concept of Yugioh more than Magic, the mechanics, and the way the game flows. The variety of lore and artstyles make sure everyone can have their desired flavor.
Maybe they could streamline card wording, and be a bit more catious about powercreep, but it's a lot more enjoyable to me than Magic is.
>>43977384
It's not a memeword in this case, it is quite demonstatibly true for a number of reasons including but not limited to:
Power creep
Different formats
Card layout
Text size
Art size
Art quality
actual quality of the paper the card is printed on
Presence/absence of lore
Resource system
And so on
>>43977384
Considering how extreme the metas are, I disagree. It seems like that it's always either "set 5 pass, have fun playing anything ever because Heavy Storm is banned" or OTKs 2 or 3 turns in.
>>43977324
While that's not wholly untrue, that's a particularly cynical take on things. If anything, skill is the foundation upon which the building blocks of luck and good cards are placed. And even then, skill acts as a good cement-like filler for situations where luck and good cards are slightly lacking.
>>43977384
Funny enough the last two reason are the reasons I fucking adore Magic. Not only can it convey a shitload of information in limited space but it can still cram a little bit extra flavor in sometimes.
>>43970567
Magic isn't very competitive, though. It's just gambling and there's objectively better cards than others. Skill only matters if everyone else doesn't have superior cards. And even then it's minimal. Same for the other card games. The only one that may be better for competitive would be Hearthstone, but that has quickly become pay to win. No different than the others, really. Pay and your odds for getting better shit rises, and if you have better stuff, your skill doesn't mean shit. You just win.
>>43977424
Oh. I forgot to mention the racism. that's a big part of it too
>>43977464
Clearly you have never played any TCGs and get all your information from assblasted netrunner players
>>43977477
I never did play any except for Pokemon as a kid. And even then gave up because skill doesn't mean anything. Do you have better cards than your opponent? Then you win. Doesn't matter what your skill is. If your cards are shit, the cards are shit. There's no skill that can counteract the effects of the cards themselves. Why do you think they don't sell cards individually? To make you gamble on tons of decks hoping to get a few good cards in each pack. If they allowed you to purchase cards individually it wouldn't be a gamble, everyone would play the same min-maxed decks possible, and it wouldn't be fun. And they wouldn't make as much money.
So, it does rely on the fact that you'll keep pumping in money, get a few good cards, and then have tons of other suboptimal ones as well. This way everyone has a chance to win against people. Hence why I've found other games that actually do require some measure of skill. Not "I put in more money for more decks and raised my odds of getting better cards than you, so I win by default". Having my wallet raped isn't a fun game for me. I ain't a fucking sugardaddy.
>>43977424
>>43977437
>>43977458
Quite honestly, I'm probably looking at it from a biased standpoint, as that was just the game I grew up with. There's a lot of problems with the game today, but it still is just something I care for. Something I really hate is that Komoney's banlists don't always make the right changes. In many cases, such as the most recent, they make big changes soley to sell the new decks coming out, regardless of how powerful the cards are or not.
It's certainly a more fast-paced game, which is why I like it.
>>43977543
You can still win with sub optimal cards. I hate to say it but you probably just sucked at pokemon
Or didn't know how to play it properly cause FUCK, NO ONE knew how to play that shit as a kid
>>43977543
Just buy the individual cards on Amazon lad.
>>43977571
>You can still win with sub optimal cards.
If everyone else is also playing with shitty cards. But the cards themselves determine who wins, not skill. It's like saying a game of war using normal cards is a game of skill. Some cards are just a higher value and others aren't. There's no skill involved there you just hope that you have better cards than your opponent does.
I don't mind people who collect cards just for the fun of it or play it casually. But to claim it's skill and have a competitive scene for it? That's just retarded. Because to be competitive implies a measure of skill. Your skill should be what determines whether you win or lose. If anything aside from your own skill at the game determines if you win or lose, then it's just not competitive. And TCGs require no skill. You gamble with packs hoping to get better cards than your opponent. If you spend lots of money and get shit, you're all out of luck. If an enemy spends a few bucks and gets good cards? He wins.
And if I'm gonna gamble like that, I'll go to a casino.
Hearthstone should be at the bottom tbqh
Obscure Weeb games are too many to be in a list like that
>>43977639
No. You can win with a $20 dollar deck against a $2000 deck if you're good enough. Money is not a determining factor in TCGs and skill plays a lot into it.
A good example of this is the Magic deck "Soul sisters" when it first showed up
Or hell, even Sligh
>>43977680
Obviously the guy that put in $2000 needs comparatively less skill to win, however.
>>43977728
Storm
>>43977680
>No. You can win with a $20 dollar deck against a $2000 deck if you're good enough.
That's a load of shit. TCGs are a form of gambling. And that's fine. Everyone loves a good gamble. But that's not much more skilled than a game of slots.
And if what you said is true, why would anyone pay so much money to get better cards if their skill was truly good enough and they could win by putting in much less?
What's an example of a shitty card beating a superior card and how does skill come into play? It's like saying Card 1 beats Card 2 with enough skill. Where's the skill? Card 2 has a higher value and beats Card 1. The cards determine the actions and what goes on in the game. If Card 2 beats Card 1, where does my skill come into play? How does my skill make Card 1 not suck ass?
>>43977744
Knowing when and how to use it
Sure, you could just spam the best shit like a mouthbreathing retard (Which is how a lot people, especially LCG players, think TCGs are played) but if you play the meta and apply that lump of fat in your skull you can win when there's massive price disparity.
I'm not going to deny pack cracking is gambling though
>>43977744
MtG is like playing chess but instead of starting out with all your pieces they're thrown into a bag and you get to take one piece out at random every turn, and you have to play using your understanding of each pieces ability and how to include them in your strategy, all the while countering/anticipating your opponents moves with there pieces.
A good player knows how both yours and your opponents pieces work, but you have yours and you need to use what you get in order to win.
>>43977780
But when any numbskull can get the right cards with enough money, it makes the overall experience cheapened for those that don't want to spend the money.
The best game systems have to balance rewarding that crack habit with the reality that artificial scarcity brings to the table. Magic does the best job it can with this, but is biggest problem is that is too big to control on its own. The secondary market is simply to hewg.
>>43977384
look at
>>43977424
>>43977437
I played both magic and yugioh
In the olden days, there was such a thing as 'hard to accomplish combo', 'beatdown'(similar to aggro monsters in magic), 'burn', and gimmicky decks could also make the scene.
Before I left yugioh, and what i've seen afterwords, most of the action comes down in the first few turns for practically most decks, its either 'I combo'ed off and got most of my threats and am representing lethal within 1-2 turns with one or 2 forms of disruption/protection' or 'I lean more towards midrange control, managed to have cards in my hand on ur first turn to discard to negate some abilities and garner advantage with maxx C and then on my turn lay a fatty that was special summoned through some unreal means, and have tons of protection and disruption,' most of these cards coming from the newer sets, invalidating most cards from older sets most times, except for staples which every deck uses so a good 1/3rd of ur deck is already established before u even begin making it, and if an old card even sees some new play, konami bans that shit, like that dino/reptile card that netted u cards when u sac'ed a dino/reptile, which was garbo until they made dino/reptile combo bullshit.
They honestly should take a page from magic and make multiple formats, that would be pretty dope as shit if they did that, i mean, they have enough cards to do so.
>>43977860
Huh. You know what other game fits that description rather aptly?
Poker
>>43977586
>buying singles on amazon of all places
Why?
>>43977887
I would rather play Poker with someone for 300 rather than spend 300 to stand a chance against his 500 investment.
I agree. I love card games, but I've never been a fan of the fact that it requires constant money to be put into the system to truly be enjoyed.
>>43977744
Card 1 can beat Card 2, just in a more implicit sense than you imply. A simple example:
Let's say I have Card 1 in my hand or otherwise immediately available to use, which will either win me the game or secure a major advantage I can work with. However, you have Card 2, which makes any investment I made in using or preparing for use of Card 1. But here's the rub: how do I know you have Card 2 in hand or immediately available? Failing something obvious like you searching for Card 2 or me seeing it through an effect like MtG's Duress, I don't. However, from how you have played the last few turns, previous games, etc. I have data that I can use to inform a guess as to whether you do. Or, I might be able to engineer a situation where you think Card 2 has to be used to defuse a more immediate threat, or a situation where Card 2 loses some of its strength.
>>43977284
how can you be more weeb than Weiss Schwarz, its literally "Weeb: THE card game"
>>43978005
That's why I said even if you don't count it. You know that both Weiss and Vanguard are made by the same company, right?
>>43977959
>I would rather play Poker with someone for 300 rather than spend 300 to stand a chance against his 500 investment.
I'm not who you replied to but something to keep in mind is that the value of cards, decks, etc. is always in flux. If you were to perform well at a major tournament with your $300 dollar deck, in a months time, your deck might be worth $500, and the $500 deck may fall to 400 or even lower!
Besides, that's the fun of 'pet decks' to some people, the feeling of being the underdog, the feeling of sheer joy as you and your fellow rebels topple the oppressive meta regime.
Magic is the king for a reason, nothing really to say that hasnt been said already.
Yugioh was ok like 5 years ago, the game could have worked in the hands of a competent developer, but konami doesnt give a fuck about this game anymore. Massive power creep has been destroying the game, people have always joked that yugioh ends on turn 2 but now its actually true. The lack of mana isnt a problem honestly, yugioh has always had unconventional rescources, but now its super easy to draw 5 cards a turn, tutor any card at any time, and summon any monster at any time, because power creep keeps pushing the already shaky costs of playing cards. Before it was notmal summon, next turn normal summon again, then special summon into aomething ok. Now its special for free, special again, special in responce, trigger now special again, then maybe normal during second main phase. The worst thing is theres no archetype diversity anymore, every deck can special 5 times a turn, every deck has at least one search card, every deck has better than destruction removal like shuffling back into deck because regular removal is power creeped.
Anyway the order goes:
magic > yugioh > hearthstone > vanguard > dogshit > pokemon
Pokemon's problem is theres almost no interaction, its just two people taking turn playing ancestral recall and wheel for free over and over again. Just combi out and draw most of your deck, then attack for 200 damage with your EX because this game got power creeped to shit too and most non EX pokemon arent competative.
I haven't had a chance to try force of will but it looks like a yugioh player tried to make a copy of magic. Having commanders built into the standard rules is cool and the mana system is certainly different but overall the game looks like trash from what Ive seen.
>>43978005
Best part is is technically named Weiß Schwarz.
Meaning for the longest time our group called it Weeb Schwarz.
>>43978039
I call it "Weeb Shorts" or sometimes "Alpha weeb" or "Beta weeb"
>>43978058
Is that Mexico or SoCal?
>>43978084
los angeles is mexico
>>43977926
>getting fucked in the ass on star city games prices
Why?
>not having a prime membership
Why not?
>>43978098
>game area is literally a cage
>products behind lock and key
Jesus Christ, my local shop has a group of spics that go regularlyincluding myselfbut it isn't that bad
>>43978098
Meh. I guess.
Everytime I travel to SoCal its just like the rest of the Americans, just slightly darker.
My travels to Mexico felt very different than that of United States.
The question we should really be asking is which game has the cutest girls?
>>43976837
>Only argument is "waaaaah w-weabs....g-get out..."
Magic/ucks, everyone.
>>43976228
Vanguard gets too much flak for this. I've played it at some decent levels of competition and among the top tables, luck is very heavily mitigated and a lot of strategy does show up. The luck factor in the game is more apparent but most of the time, I've found that it's actually much less common among the good players to get destroyed by wacky triggers and grade shenanigans than it is for mana flood to happen, not because it happens less but because there're a lot of options to deal with abysmal luck if you know what you're doing.
I've also played Yugioh competitively and the game gets way more intricate than most people believe. The amount of planning that goes into a winning deck and the amount of information that passes in just one turn of a competitive Yugioh game is insane. Virtually every deck that's good enough to be barely considered rogue can win in one turn if the opponent is unprepared and can't respond. There're a million issues with Yugioh and I would never recommend it to anyone for any reason, but most of /tg/ only hates it by association to other things.
Of course that's true of a lot of things here. I do consider Magic a more interesting competitive game than either of those, but they're very interesting on their own right if you understand what's going on.
I think that Yugioh's skill depends heavily on the format. Some of the formats have decks with absolutely massive decision trees, needing to plan out moves 4-8 steps in advance while being wary of whatever shit your opponent has. Nekroz was the best example of this (If you discount Djinn Lock).
>What's an example of a shitty card beating a superior card
These don't always correlate with price.
>>43978180
Cute Girls + Stun format was best format.
>>43977639
In competitive environments most everyone is playing with the best cards. So it does come down to skill.
>>43976228
When that shit is against you there's no "skill" to be had pal. You lose a lot more cards and quite frankly unless your cards themselves are outright better than your opponents your ass can be fucked just by being behind a difference of 2 triggers.
>>43978608
>Vanguard gets too much flak for this
Nah. It gets the right amount and deserves every bit of it. Just remember the infamous restanding Vanguards like Thing Saver who go full ham with the trigger mechanic and are next to always meta or the increasingly various guard controllers like my picture who naturally of course restrict your guard and make trigger checks all the more unfortunate and game sealing.
>>43977424
>Different formats
Subjective, since both have different formats. What's better? Lots of them? Fewer? Which ones are better
>Card layout
Subjective as to which is better. Are we talking functionally? Aesthetically? A combination of the two? If so, how are they weighted?
>Text size
Subjective. Some people may like more complex cards, others may prefer them to be simpler, which affects the text size as it has to fit in a predefined area.
>Art size
Subjective. Some people may find different balances/sizes more aesthetically pleasing. Some people even care more about the effect than the actual art.
>Art quality
Subjective. Some people may favor one style over the other. Matter of personal preference.
>Presence/absence of lore
Subjective. Both have some lore attached, but quality, accessibility, etc. are going to vary from person to person.
>Resource system
Subjective. There's pros and cons to both and people can genuinely prefer one to the other.
You really WERE using objective as a "memeword" (or just didn't understand the meaning of it but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on that one).
>>43977464
>>43977543
What the fuck are you on about? When talking about the competitiveness of a game, people aren't talking about cracking boosters. We're talking about after having all the cards for the given deck, how is the competitive format? (If you can't afford the cards, play with proxies on a non-official environment for fun). So, in short, you just done fucked it all up. Hearthstone, for starters, is the very worst of all in terms of competition, considering a massive number of cards is rng based.
>opponent has 2 guys on the table
>need to kill guy A, guy B is irrelevant
>only have Flame Cannon to kill A
>hahahahaha rng lol
