Can a level 20 fighter beat a SWAT team?
>>43953708
>Can a level 20 fighter beat a handful of level 3 warriors
>>43953708
A level 20 fighter with average WBL magical equipment could probably take on the united states by themselves.
>>43953708
Considering all those gaps in that armor, no. SWAT team would pump so much lead into those exposed spots that the fighter would be dead pretty quick
>>43953766
>with guns
>>43953929
Guns won't do that much damage, and lvl 3 warriors won't be able to hit his touch AC.
At level 20 he takes 1 hit to kill each of them. Even if they ALL hit, he's not going down from 10 bullets. He probably has ~300 HP.
>>43953929
Yes, and? It really doesn't matter what weapon the warriors are using.
>>43953925
>regular guns by level 3s
>getting through lvl 20 ac
>>43953925
A level 20 fighter's touch AC will be high enough to not care.
>>43954017
What would the save be against tasers though?
>>43953708
Can a knight beat a line of peasants armed with guns?
Easily.
So could a level 10 fighter; but a level 5 would probably lose.
A level 20 fighter beats up flying magic dinosaurs with a pointy stick. Keep in mind that using 3.5 and d20 modern for scaling, a dragon is immune to non-magical small arms and can survive several direct hits from a tank cannon.
Keep in mind Simo Hayha and Roy Benavidez were like, level 5. Walking off half a magazine of bullets and then killing a lot of dudes is a level 5-10 thing.
>>43953968
"Guns won't do that much damage"
Niggah what? Only way I can see a fucking fighter fully automatic weapons is if he is wearing some sort of god damn space age power-armor
>>43953925
Even without playing DnD I know that a level 20 character is pretty much a demigod by more grounded standards. Petty issues like weak spots in armor (or an armor that is a weak spot all of its own) aren't of any concern any more at this point.
>>43954038
Considering that it would be a thoughness test...
>>43953708
What the fuck is that?
>>43954083
Fighters have enough HP that literally getting hit with a meteor is a survivable event.
>>43954038
Tasers? it'd be a touch attack then a fort save. It'd be next to impossible for them to hit, then even harder for him to fail the save.
>>43954100
Yeaaaaah, that's a good point. Not even a wall of those field taser sets would probably work.
>>43954083
You're talking about a character who could survive falling 100 feet without any issues.
Or could survive being struck with lightning and keep murdering.
Shit, he could survive having a boulder dropped directly on top of him.
>>43954083
A level 20 fighter can swim fully submerged in lava for several minutes and not care. They can be hit by a meteor. They can be shot with a cannon and it do less than 2% of their HP.
You seem to be thinking this fighter is somehow like a mortal. He's level 20.
>>43954083
I mean really, how much damage does a gun do? Like, 1d10, maybe 2d6? Bitch has got HP for days.
>>43954038
Tasers are mostly psychological. They rely on people thinking they're supposed to fall down when tazed. They're very ineffective against people who see them for the first time or are high on drugs.
>>43954059
Simo Hayha ate one bullet to the face and that was that.
>>43954083
>this is what level 1's believe
>>43954168
I thought it was artillery shrapnel, hold on gotta go look it up.
>Fighter wins initiative.
>Kills first swat member
>Cleaves and kills second
>Repeat until SWAT is dead.
Alternatively
>Fighter wins initiative
>Shoots the entire SWAT team with arrows and kills all of them.
>>43954083
>lvl 20 fighter
>~26 touch AC
>~300 HP
>average to hit of the warriors ~6
>only hit on 20s
>gun does max 3d6 if I'm being generous
>20 guys, one hits, gets 3d6+3(assuming he has deadly aim and point blank shot)
>average 13.5 damage
>fighter can literally not care for several minutes then still win
>>43954191
>fighter spent some pocket change to buy an amulet of protection from missiles
>fighter is completely immune to all known firearms, most tank weapons, anything relying on fragmentation.
>>43954278
Literal missiles?
>>43954292
High explosive warheads might work, but kinetic damage is out.
>>43954207
He could riverdance through bullets.
>>43954168
Benavidez caught about 30, plus stabbings and handgrenade and mortar explosions and shrapnel; fought on for six hours, and then lived.
>>43954278
DR10 is immune to the average damage from a gun (2d8/20/x2 for an M4) but crits will still tell.
>>43954292
An RPG is 6d6, AT4 is 10d6 (both ignore 10 points DR on a direct hit from the shaped charge). A 25mm autocannon is 4d12 and a 120mm tank cannon is, IIRC, 20d10.
>>43953968
>>43953929
When dealing with RPG mechanics, particularly D&D mechanics, lethality tends to get really screwy.
>>43954153
Can I get a source on this? Can't find anything
>>43954413
At this stage they need crits just to hit his touch.
>>43954495
Sounds BS to me. Tasers work by locking up muscles and nerves electrically; their superior efficacy is why they replaced batons so fast.
I did the math once and found that a level 15 barbarian with no magical gear is more than a match for an entire platoon of regular level 1 footsoldiers.
A level 20 warrior against an "elite" squad of 10 or so will be fine.
>>43953708
What kind of fighter? Cause depending on their feat load out they may be literally invincible
>>43954495
I can only provide some personal experience, but I can say they can have wildly different effects on different people.
I personally get absolutely destroyed by tasers and electricity in general, and hate the shit out of them. I don't mind a lot of shit, but those fuck me up.
But I've watched guys do something more than just shake a bit when tazed, and not really seem that worse for wear from them afterwards. Like, they totally get hit with the electricity and it does kind of mess with them, but I watched a dude stay standing just fine when hit with one.
>>43954481
D&D is well balanced if you keep in mind peak-human is level 5 and top men in their fields are level 3. In 2e, fighters could start getting demigod templates (divine rank 0) at level 15.
>>43954440
So unless it's a critical hit, a lvl 20 fighter can tank a round from a 120 mm cannon.
The SWAT guys are fucked.
>>43954673
That's assuming the fighter has no dr from feats and armor
Though to be honest , that dr wouldn't be that impressive
>>43954182
Last time I read about it, it was an explosive bullet (is this even a thing for early WW2 soviets?) from a counter-sniper team. At which point he shot the one that shot him and got back for medical treatment, then was out until that war was over.
>>43953708
So pic unrelated? That's clearly a camp whore that the soldiers dressed up to mock the enemy.
But probably.
What's the lowest level a standard party could beat a space marine squad?
>>43954578
D&D does a remarkably terrible job when dealing with modern weaponry. The damages listed in >>43954440
are a pretty perfect example of it as they have no bearings on the actual comparative efficacy and effect of the weapons listed.
For example, the AT-4's HEAT warhead can punch through 400+mm of steel (about 15.75") which in d20 would require ~480 damage to penetrate.
The PG-7VL fired form an RPG-7 can penetrate greater than 500mm RHA.
>>43954772
At Level 20, could very feasibly go naked and still wreck them by relying on Touch AC. And with HP alone in case they catch the Fighter flatfooted, can pretty much watch the bullets bounce off.
>>43954824
I refuse to believe a Lv.20 anything would dress like that.
Or have no scars.
>>43954891
>I refuse to believe a Lv.20 anything would dress like that.
You have it exactly backwards: everyone ELSE dresses the way level 20s dress. They are literally the standard for power and prestige.
>Or have no scars.
Regenerate spells are a pittance at level 20.
>>43954891
Why not dress like that? If anything, you could argue that it's useful for a build with high dexterity - that's almost literally just Breastplate in 3.5, so just making it from Mithral could mean up to 21 Dexterity with no bonus cap - and if she has to carry around a hell of a lot of loot, and modern military gear is certainly heavy, might be useful to have such lightweight armour when you don't need heavier.
As for lack of scars, if her fighting style is using a lot of evasion, could explain that. Alternatively, magical healing.
>>43954891
Adventurers can get really eccentric, man.
I'll give you the the scars bit, though.
>>43954799
Yes inanimate gear is statted poorly thanks to D&D's roots; but D&D damage's correspondence to it's RL counterpart isn't meant to be linear; it's meant to be logarithmic. Gods shooting nuclear-level effects that are described as obliterating mountains and statted with blast areas a dozen miles wide use about 20d6 for it.
It's a mess, and Malazan and Tales of Wyre are some of the few D&D rips that handle the difference well.
>>43955004
Could Alsi be glamoured armor. For all we know she could be in adamantine full plate
>>43953708
Depends on whether we're running things by D&D rules or reality. IE: Are we taking the level 20 fighter into our world and extrapolating what they would be capable of based on their in-game attributes and abilities, or are we sending a SWAT team built in d20 Modern after a level 20 fighter?
>>43955054
I don't disagree, I was just giving an example as to why the lethality of weapons gets screwy when you start getting into modern technology. I.E., if you actually tried to use either the AT-4 or the RPG-7 (or even the lowly Ma Deuce) for their intended purpose they would fail utterly.
>>43954542
They lock up the muscles by overriding the body's control signals, strong will-power can push a signal through.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Weo6BHoytA
>Level 3 human walking while tased.
>>43954083
Guns in d20 do 2d6 to 2d8 damage, with no magic bonuses or additions.
Assuming the fighter has obtained some form of magical damage reduction, even a DR of 5/+1 (But at level 20, a DR of 20/- is not unheard of) would make a significant amount of the bullets arbitrarily do 0 damage.
>>43954153
Sadly no. Tasers deliver 10,000 volts DC into the body. The high voltage elecvtricity cause muscles to spasm and violently contract.
Now here's the key part:
Depending on WHERE you are tazed, the effect will be DIFFERENT.
Being Tazed in the Arm is more likely to just elicit a horrible wince and a recoil of the victim, than a collapse in pain and shock.
being tazed in the head or chest can be fatal, as it can hit the brain or the heart.
Being Tazed in the abdomen will most likely force the victim to double over, or fall into the fetal position.
Being tazed in the legs is a knockdown, as leg muscles violently contracting will undoubtedly throw them off balance.
But the real thing is: After the tazer *lets go* of you, you immediately regain control over your muscles. And a person, even after being pepper sprayed, even after being tazed, is still able to lash out, even if blindly or from a position of disadvantage.
By the way: In d20: a tazer is a Fortitude save: dc 15. Save for no effect.
A level 1 wizard has a halfway decent shot of not being effected by it.
>>43955784
5.56mm - 2d8
7.62mm - 2d10
.50BMG - 2d12
9mm - 2d6
.45ACP - 2d6
.50AE - 2d8
12ga - 2d8
10ga - 2d10
120mm APFSDS - 10d12
25x137mm- 4d12
>>43955771
He was shot in the back... the only muscles that were really effected were, well, in that region. It really wouldn't effect his ability to walk. just cause him a lot of pain.
>Source: Electrician.
>>43956087
Let me taser you in the back and see how far you walk.
>>43956139
Sure! Just hold these 4/0 AWG wires while I hook them into the transformer, and we'll be in business!
>>43953708
>can sword beat gun
>>43953708
literally every aspect of your picture is retarded, who wants a rundown?
>>43956087
How difficult is it to become an electrician anonymous?
>>43954110
>buh... b-buh muh guhn
>>43959242
>>43956087
they held a demonstration at the local PDG store to give $500 to the first person who'd accept a taser in the back
this big german guy stepped forward onto the cushion/mattress and had him sit on his knees, and he tumbled like a sack the second they lit him
tasers will fuck people up family
>>43953708
Jesus, her gash is gonna be rubbed bloody raw from having a fucking raw metal plate up against it as she fights.
>>43959615
Gun with a sword is firing at a larger caliber, and an arm mounted on the grip isn't going to be a liability when firing, unlike an arm located on the blade.
Also, with his arm the gun is capable of bracing, aiming and firing himself, while the sword has no way of effectively slashing once he's exhausted his ammunition.
>All this 3aboo wank
5e would at least be interesting despite the fighter still winning easily.
Here: I'll sum up the whole thread for you.
IT DEPENDS.
That's one level short of taking the Demigod Epic destiny...a level 20 fighter would kick the ever-loving trap out of a SWAT team.
They may be defenders but they are still bloody deadly.
>>43959636
That's what shota squires are for.
Hey guys! How about this? A lv 20 fighter against...wait for it....
A LEVEL 20 SWAT TEAM!
>>43959797
That's a squad of level 20s vs. one level 20, so assuming the game is balancedHAH!the one with more members should have the advantage.
>>43959747
>4e
Get out.
>In any edition of D&D a level 20 fighter can survive a fall from orbit, being stepped on by a giant, being breathed on by an ancient red dragon, and routinely make mincemeat out of dozens of armed soldiers.
>some people in this thread unironically saying "hurr he'd get shot in the face".
3.X. Not even once.
>>43953708
>>>
>Anonymous 12/02/15(Wed)21:57:54 No.43959629â–¶
The short answer: Yes.
The long answer: The 20th level fighter is, pretty much regardless of edition or system, so ridiculously powerful that they wont seem like a mortal man even if they are completely devoid of gear. To give you just one aspect of how ridiculous 20th level characters are, assuming just a point buy of 15 (average to low for PCs in most settings), a human fighter can have a strength score of 24, or a +7 modifier on all strength checks. That means he can casually carry over 230 lbs of gear without being encumbered (meaning s/he takes no penalties to movement or actions from weight). They can, with no training, climb a rock wall or long jump 15 feet without significant effort while carrying 200+ pounds of gear. Thats just with the baseline mod and no gear.
Then we can talk about putting 20 ranks into a skill. Even assuming no other bonuses, a +20 to anything means you can do nearly superhuman feats with casual ease. With a +20 to diplomacy, you could casually ask a stranger to do a favor for you that could result in punishment and they will do it every time. With a +20 in a knowledge, you are dropping earth-shaking revelations on the subject on a daily basis.
Finally, we have the hit points. A 20th level fighter with as little as a +2 con bonus and no feats is looking at between 150-200 hp depending on system. That means that assuming a high powered rifle does 2d8 damage (an average of 9 damage a shot), the fighter can take roughly 15 hits from something like an assault rifle and still be able to hit you hard enough to break bones.
All of that is assuming a fighter that is naked, not optimized, and is using none of the ~16 feats that they would have acquired thus far. When you add in actual touch armor class, potential damage reduction, initiative, and even non-magical gear....
Most armies wont stand a chance unless they can somehow mass. A swat team is nothing.
>>43960095
>Implying that wounds and HP are the same
>>43960193
They're not, HP is an abstraction of numerous factors, but the reality of the situation is that in every single version of D&D a level 20 Fighter is a superhuman demigod, not a human being.
Their abilities are more in line with Marvel's Thor than "some really lucky guy in plate"
>>43960180
The simple truth of the matter is, any 20th level PC is going to be Demigod-esque in stature. You cant compare them to everyday people at that point. A 20th level fighter is going to be like Hercules, Beowulf, or Gilgamesh: Legends that live on thousands of years after the person lived, except that the stories are all real. And fighters are honestly the weakest and most gear dependent class at 20. This was never going to be a fair fight.
>>43954891
At that point, the armor is more effective than plate just from all the various enchantments that are on that shit.
>>43960210
Wasn't the monk supposed to be the superhuman demigod, given the whole
>perfect self, outsider type
thing?
Fighters on the other hand seem to be built more from experience and the uncanny awareness that comes from having seen literally every single move played out on the battlefield, something that enables them to be hard to kill regardless of what feats and attributes that they're built with.
(And then there are barbarians who just get significantly angrier the longer they're forced to stick around.)
>>43954108
A woman. Try not to lose your head, freak.
>>43960286
In D&D, all the character classes are supposed to be more then human. Some editions do this better then others, but no PC is normal.
A casual look at the "Fighter" examples in the AD&D player's handbook should reveal that they are not intended to be normal men.
>>43953968
What swat team is level 3 shit your swat is pansy mate. Fuck a girl scout could beat level 3 swat
>>43954481
>get invited to game
>never played before
>roll up a bomb chucking alchemist
>party gets in first fight
>i chuck one of my bombs at a group of baddies
>it blows up
>deals mild dmg
>kills no one
>NIGGA WHAT?
>That shit was a fucking grenade what the fuck kind of person can survive a grenade blowing up at their feet?
>>43960337
In most editions the average NPC guard ranges from level 0 through level 3.
No living human has abilities on par with a level 5+ fighter.
>>43960347
Your mistake is thinking that D&D people are people.
>>43960314
See, I think you're drawing causation from "examples of heroic fighters" and concluding that "all fighters are heroes."
Now, people with classes are atypical. The average man does not devote themselves to the singular study of fight-craft, or bush-craft, or mage-craft. No, instead they're craftsmen mixed with farmers and husbands and housewives.
Instead, the reason why they provide examples of heroes is to draw the point that you, the player, are the hero and that these are significant characters that you can aspire to become.
Fighters, mages, druids, monks, clerics, paladins, and all the other classes exist naturally in the world, and they are all mundane people who have taken on a less than mundane path in life. This doesn't make them heroes, but it does make them rare. And the more experienced they are, the rarer they become.
>>43960347
dat minimum burst damage at first level, tho
dat multi-attack, tho
>>43960378
No, but if Hercules is given as an example Fighter, it stands to reason that some level of Fighter should be equivalent to Hercules.
Even if the rules do not bear this out, that is what the fluff is and always has been. You don't defeat 50 foot dragons with a two foot sword and "grit".
At least, not in D&D you don't.
>>43960286
>>43960193
This tired old argument always goes out the window as soon as you bring up stuff like fall damage, poison or being on fire.
>But, but, it's not actually wounds, it's reflexes and experiences and being able to take the pain, man! No way it's anything as simple as people simply being able to take massive amounts of damage and surviving! Muh D&D!
And then you survive jumping out of a skyscraper, walking around naked in in sub-zero temperatures or getting hit by a small meteorite.
I don't even get who makes these arguments, are you horrified that D&D might actually be a little silly some times?
>>43960453
The worst ones are when people call unrealistic or silly about things people can do in real life.
>>43960378
The player characters and their classes are all extreme examples, they're not the same as normal people.
The reason we know this is that the entire world would be completely retarded if a career in the city guard ends with you being some kind of supersaiyan like a player-fighter.
>>43960404
No, I'd think that if Hercules was given as an example Fighter, than Hercules was a Fighter. It leaves nothing to suggest that any Fighter could become Hercules because, as you know, Hercules was the offspring of a god.
If you want to pull string with myth and tabletops, Beowulf pulled the arm off of a man-eating giant and killed a dragon with nothing but grit (and a little steel).
Sure, it all ended ended up killing him, but Beowulf wasn't anointed from the heavens due to his KDA, but he certainly was a badass regardless.
>>43960532
The examples given of Magic Users are also all offsprings of gods or divine themselves.
Gandalf was an angel, Merlin was half-demon, Circe was a goddess, etc.
If D&D implies a PC can become like those characters through studying, it also implies a character can become like demigod heroes through training. This isn't borne out perfectly in the rules, but that is the way it was intended per the fluff.
>>43960453
I'd argue that this is more the result of poor storytelling on the part of the players or the GM.
Inflexibility and "You take x damage because that's what the rules say" is a poor substitute for creativity. If a fighter falls from the heavens and collides with the earth after an unmolested journey, then he is probably dead.
If a fighter falls from a skyscraper and lives, maybe it's because his steely resolve allows him to glide his way into a wall, to accumulate a fifty-story rash in exchange for a second chance at life.
Maybe he fell through a dozen awnings on his way down. Be creative.
Otherwise, he is probably dead.
Consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fall_survivors
>>43960599
Or it could be because he's superhuman, and you're retarded.
>>43953766
>level 3
You are grossly underestimating SWAT teams. They are almost as well trained as many special operations units. They are at least level 10 in a low-magic setting.
>>43960599
The reason that argument is stupid is that it should apply just as much to level 1 characters, and it clearly doesn't.
You can't have something that's stated to be an injury mechanic in a clunky monster of a rules system and then just pretend that it also factors in luck or wind direction whenever the results seem to point towards people being superhuman in order to pretend that the characters aren't basically superheroes.
>>43960618
>Level 10 is strong enough in 3.X and 5e to defeat dragons, giants, whole swarms of undead, and mind flayers, while also being able to stand in a fire for like 5 minutes with no injury and survive a fall from terminal velocity also with no injury.
He's not underestimating SWAT, you're underestimating level 3.
>>43953708
Not if the SWAT team is using DH2E rules.
>>43960637
No lasting injury*
>>43953708
> My SWAT team is 4 lvl 5 mages.
So, now what?
>>43960618
Lvl 4-5 is about as high as a real human being has ever achieved realistically.
>>43953708
The SWAT Team is fugged, though humorously a single MBT turn that demigod into paste.
>>43960314
The fighter is, and always will be a soldier: hell, in Chainmail, D&D's predecessor, you were controlling /thousands/ of fighters at once in order to achieve single objectives. No, the fighter is not the average man, but he's not the average man insomuch the average man is a soldier. A first level fighter is your average private.
>>43961002
Actually, the fighter class in D&D is what Chainmail would refer to as a "Hero". They even share the ability to use magic swords and all.
>>43953708
>has long hair in front view
>short hair in rear view
>clearly not focusing on continuity
I'm pretty sure a level 20 fighter with a bow could kill all of them before they knew there was a threat.
Regardless of their build, you're still looking at an individual who is regularly capable of physical feats significantly above the level of Olympic athletes. I doubt they'd survive a strafing run from an A-10, but short of military intervention, they're unstoppable.
>>43953708
Depends, what color are they? Police have Favored Enemy: Minorities, and black people are disadvantaged on rolls against them.
No, because the swat team will just kick the shit out of the "level 20 fighter" and drag his fat ass to jail for resisting arrest.
The problem with the D20 health system is that it doesn't take into account attrition and loss of ability from wounds. If a player is hit by a great axe for max damage, it's fucking ridiculous to pretend that they're able to fight at full strength.
In my campaigns I completely discard hitpoints, damage rolls, and I only use touch AC. Instead, I use a detailed wound-tracking system that positions attacks relative to vital organs and even allows for dismemberment.
When I resolve an attack, I perform a simple touch AC challange. If an attack hits, I then roll a sequence of percentage dies and compare that to a numbered silhouette that kind of looks like a connect-the-dots diagram. Obviously, the location that is rolled is where the attack lands. I begin by drawing a point in the silhouette on that location. I then roll a percentage die to determine the angle of the attack, which allows me to draw a line through the silhouette.
I call this the "attack path".
I pre-calculate an attack surface area for each weapon and I combine that with the strength of the attacker in order to determine a penetration value. To account for random variances I roll a percentage die, subtracting 50% from the result, and scale the penetration value accordingly.
I call this value the "attack energy".
I have my PCs draw armor plates outlines on their silhouettes, and overlapping plates are drawn in different colors. PCs are also required to provide information about the material composition of each armor plate, including a quality modifier. I typically host side sessions with players to craft out how they acquired their armor, and I adjust prices and qualities accordingly. I compare these results with a table of values assigned to each material and its respective quality modifier, and each armor plate presents a defensive value. Using the attack path, I can determine which armor plates will be tested during the attack.
I call this the "armor sequence".
>>43961214
I subtract attack energy from each piece of armor along the armor sequence, stopping once I have subtracted all of the attack energy. I highlight the depth of the attack along the attack path which allows me to record damage to armor plates for subsequent attacks. Depending on the type of attack and the attack surface area, it becomes possible for me to cut parts off of armor, which I represent by filling in the destroyed armor plates.
If an attack penetrates all the way through armor, I then perform a lookup in a table for a "natural armor" value that represents that particular point on the silhouette. These values are actually three fold, representing fat, muscle, and bone densities. In addition, these values are modified by strength and constitution values. For instance, strength typically reduces fat values and increases muscle, while constitution directly corresponds to increases in muscle and bone values. If the remaining attack energy is greater than the fat values, then the fat in that point is considered "damaged," and the fat value is subtracted from the attack energy. This is repeated for the muscle and bone values in order, and specific penalties are assigned to the character based on the location of the damage and whether the attack has penetrated fat, muscle, or bone .
I call these "pre-vital wounds".
If attack energy remains, I have a table of special rules listed for each point along that attack path. Limbs, for instance, get removed if one or more intersecting attack paths have dealt pre-vital wounds to fat, muscle, and bone on both sides of the limb.
For attacks that penetrate the torso or head, I have provide locations in the silhouette that represents the various vital organs. The process for determining damage and penetration to these locations is determined similarly.
I call these "vital wounds".
>>43961222
In addition to pre-vital and vital wounds, I track blood volumes and bleed rates for characters. Over the course of combat, players will accumulate damage and lose blood. Once an appropriate amount of blood is lost, or an appropriate arrangement of vital wounds are incurred, a character is considered dead.
>>43961173
One thing I always found interesting was just how lethal military vehicles are in D&D: most of them have the firepower to destroy extremely high level threats that you wouldn't normally think a mundane machine should be able to handle.
>>43961214
>>43961222
>>43961231
And this, here, is EXACTLY why DnD uses HP.
9/10, best troll I've seen in months, ESPECIALLY if you're not trolling.
>>43961214
>>43961222
>>43961231
So, Dwarf Fortress?
>>43961247
Well, once you take into account that a lot of modern weaponry is either designed to kill dozens of enemies with each shot or puncture inches of armor made of (for a fantasy character) arcane alloys of ludicrous strength it puts things in perspective.
I don't want to go all /k/ up in here, but the advances in weapons tech in the last 20 years alone boggle the mind.
>>43960347
Your first mistake was thinking of D&D people as people instead of walking numbers.
>>43954891
At level 20 you can do whatever the fuck you want, who's gonna tell you to stop? The poor bastards with their shrapened sticks and peashooters that bounce off your skin?
>>43954207
Well, considering each SWAT dude can make about 30 attacks per round, and there's a dozen of them, I think even that contrived way of looking at armor isn't enough to save the warrior.
>>43959242
Guns are worthless against a naked level 20 fighter, welcome to D&D.
>>43961621
The warrior would die, though. He's looking at several thousand attacks during an entire fight.
>>43961611
Thats not how the game works. A machine gun's rate of fire is counted as part of its larger damage die. It still only deals piddling damage compared to a level 20 Fighter's health total. And if he has DR or miss chances, he's basically bulletproof.
>>43961632
>He's looking at several thousand attacks during an entire fight.
wat
>>43960314
fighters are not inherently superhuman, they are devoted to fighting which means they aren't some farmer with an axe
they are trained warriors who are in practice, they know how to use a weapon properly, they know how to move in armour and they understand the mechanics of combat
any group of trained infantry are fighters (mostly first level), medieval knights would be around 3rd or 4th level as they were trained by masters and had lots of time to hone their combat skill.
fighters =/= superhuman, just dedication and skill to the art of combat
>>43953708
sniper rifles
>>43961649
Yes, they are thing that exist. Your point?
>>43961632
No, just stop talking.
>>43961640
What game? There are no SWAT in d&d. This is cross-system.
>>43961642
The average assault rifle has a fire rate of around 750 rounds per minute. Of course they have to reload for a lot of that time, but still.
>>43961649
Bounce off the fighter's skull and don't do anything beyond making them look in your direction menacingly.
>>43961657
No, you just stop talking. It's completely retarded to take one of the two parts of the OP's question completely out of its context, but not the other.
>>43961662
read:
>>43961640
>>43961646
A level 20 Fighter can
-Walk through fire for like 10 minutes, sustain no lasting injury.
-Fall from terminal velocity, sustain no lasting injury
-Stay a large humanoid such as an Ogre or Hill Giant, naked.
-Stay monsters that are often 50 feet tall with medieval equipment.
-Can survive deadly poisons.
-Is basically immune to most diseases.
-Can kill dozens of people in a few minutes, with no chance of injury.
That is not a human being, shut up with your retarded "Hurr skill and grit" bullshit.
>>43961662
>The average assault rifle has a fire rate of around 750 rounds per minute. Of course they have to reload for a lot of that time, but still.
You do realise that would require for them to carry a fucking wheelbarrow filled with spare magazines, right?
>>43961675
Read
>>43961668
>>43961678
It's an entire SWAT team. It's not unreasonable for each member to have a few hundred rounds on them.
>>43961662
In D&D 5e the rules for automatic rifles is that they deal 2d8 damage and can induce a Save or Damage over a 10 foot area. The average level 20 Fighter has 164 HP, meaning he can survive being shot at by a machine gun for about 2 minutes straight before he goes down, assuming the guy doesn't have to reload [which is also a requirement in the rules].
I forget the rules for machine guns in 3.X, but they're only like a few d8s of damage I think.
>>43961690
You're avoiding the issue. Why are you forcing D&D rules onto this?
There are three ways to make the OP scenario work: You take the SWAT team out of context, you take the fighter out of context, or you try to blend the rules reasonably which would involve some kind of judgment call on what makes sense.
>>43961713
Nah, you're just being a autist.
>>43961690
>he can survive being shot at by a machine gun for about 2 minutes
So for about one round if a platoon is firing at him?
>>43961732
Actually firmly clinging to arbitrary rules that have no application in the current context instead of adapting is a sign of autism. So I'd say you are :^)
>>43961734
Assuming every shot hits, which is very unlikely. They have at best +5 to hit, he has as much as 25 AC, so my figure is actually a bit off. Its more likely it'd take like 10 minutes for one guy.
>>43961732
>>43961713
This, you're being autistic. The rational way of comparing a SWAT team to a level 20 Fighter is using the actual rules the game provides for a real world SWAT team. Anything other than that is just pointless //k/ wank that completely ignores the fact that a level 20 Fighter is a mythical demigod hero.
Saying "He'd die to bullets" is as stupid as saying Marvel's Thor would.
>>43953708
Made of goblins? a goblin swat team if you prefer?
>>43961744
>OP asks a question
>The game provides rules for precisely this sort of scenario
>You dismiss the rules on the grounds that it strikes you as unrealistic or offends your aesthetic taste
>Someone how you're not autistic.
>>43961744
What's 'level 20' mean, then?
>>43961757
>The rational way of comparing a SWAT team to a level 20 Fighter is using the actual rules the game provides for a real world SWAT team
No it's not. Only the fighter is from the game. Why take the SWAT team out of its context? A SWAT team isn't a bunch of character sheets. They don't have any HP or to-hit modifiers.
>>43961767
>The game
>The rules
OP didn't name a game or any rules, though. You're forcing your own preferred rules onto the situation instead of looking at it from all perspectives.
>>43961785
A 'real' level 20 fighter is basically a comic book superhero, so he'd still kick SWAT arse even without the rules of D&D or whatever.
>>43961785
He said a level 20 Fighter, clearly referring to one of the following games.
Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Edition
Pathfinder
Dungeon and Dragons 5th Edition
And in every single one of those games, there are rules provided for automatic weapons, and they are not that impressive compared to the fantastical abilities of the player characters. There is also the fact that the average non-PC warrior in both games is listed as level 1-3, and no living person is above level 5 by the rules specifications of how powerful those characters are.
A SWAT team is a group of level 1-3 characters equipped with body armor and automatic rifles. Compared to a being who can literally kill beings the size of a galleon, that is not that impressive.
The only alternative to the rules is using a comparison to feats [which leads to the Fighter winning by a landslide] or tummy feels, which basically amounts to you whining that SWAT teams are not that great in a game about killing motherfucking dragons using pointy sticks.
>>43961808
Well, I don't know about that.
For instance, what exactly is HP? In the books, how is it explained? Because as I remember it's only an abstraction that makes sense during a fight. So a "real" lvl20 fighter couldn't survive falling off a cliff any more than a random guy who never did anything special.
>>43961818
It's obvious that the fighter is from one of those games (or from a similar one, the list is actually much larger, but they all amount to sort of the same thing).
But there is no implication that the SWAT team is from one of those games.
>>43961834
>But there is no implication that the SWAT team is from one of those games.
tbqfhf (to be quite fucking honest family), this is where you lost the bait and let your posts trail off now. That's too obvious a hand to play, you make me shake my head famalamadamadamadamam.
>>43961834
A Level 20 Fighter in D&D is a character who can kill 50 foot tall monsters, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. If we go by the rules, he wins. If we go by common fucking sense, he wins.
You are talking out of your ass. HP is an abstraction of various factors, but there are too many examples in the rules of characters surviving obviously superhuman opponents for you to pretend that HP is 9/10ths luck and only 1/10ths durability.
>>43961834
Fighters at level 20 can tank being hit by a sword to the face by a commoner for over five minutes when unconscious and unarmoured with coup de grace attacks and no way of dodging.
Try again.
>>43960618
>level 10
Level 6 is borderline superhuman. There might be one or two such people alive, and no level 7+ people.
>>43961849
I've been saying the same thing since the start. If you think this is bait (which it isn't at least as my intentions go), then you should blame yourself for responding.
>>43961854
No. If we go by common sense, then he's more likely to lose.
As I mentioned before, a character who has 200HP doesn't have a sturdier body than a character who has 10HP, HP is just an abstraction of experience with fighting and dealing with danger.
>>43953708
A level 20 fighter could turkey slap a SWAT team to death. It would probably take several direct tank shots to bring one down. Or a nuke if you're feeling like overkill.
>>43961834
Falling damage is part of D&D, and a level 20 fighter can take a whole lot of it. You might as well say that the fighter would die if a dragon breathed fire on him, since realistically people die to fire.
>>43961877
And I'm telling you that by the rules that is objectively wrong. A level 20 character is infinitely more durable than a level 1 character.
A level 20 character can survive getting hit by dragon's breath, getting hit by a Cloud Giant's weapon, can survive getting eaten alive by sea-serpents, you can give them a vial of arsenic and they can drink it and live seriously what the fucking game are you playing that you think that in 20 levels all he does is get better at purely mundane swordcraft?
>>43961877
atbqfhf (again to be quite fucking honest family) you should make your bait a little less smelly.
>>43961884
That's the entire problem. We're trying to mix d&d rules with realism in a blender and see what falls out.
>>43961894
>And I'm telling you that by the rules
And I'm telling you that there is no "by the rules" here. You're taking one whole half of the OP question out of context.
>A level 20 character is infinitely more durable than a level 1 character.
No he's not. Go read what HP actually is.
>>43961897
Personally I think it's better just to dump a SWAT team into D&D. Base the power of modern firearms on the comparative power of bows and arrows. Putting the fighter into real life would require a lot more work, since things are more complicated IRL.
>>43961901
It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability
in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain
physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an
assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust
which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero
could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why
then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual
physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by
constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill
in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" whith
warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck,
and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine
protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand
physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas
which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).
-Gary Gygax
HP is BOTH durability AND abstract luck/survivability. It HAS to be, given the feats that Fighters are capable of. Even assuming the 1e concept of "CON is meat points", that still leaves our friend the fighter with 40 HP of pure meat. But thats clearly not the rule being applied, since 1e is nothing like 5e.
>>43961897
No, you're trying to ignore how powerful D&D says machine guns are because it makes your second amendment dick feel smaller.
Oh look, it's another "dumb question with lewd picture" thread.
Who
Would
Have
Thought.
>>43961920
>Personally I think it's better just to dump a SWAT team into D&D
That's an opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. It does answer one facet of the question.
You just have to note that the question could be answered from the other direction as well.
>>43961935
Yeah, they've been here since forever. It's a bit discouraging to see that people have been having less and less fun with them over the years.
>>43961931
I'm not even american though. I don't own or like firearms in real life.
>>43961941
It's gotten tiring. There's only so much hypothetical dumb shit I can discuss before I get bored of it.
>>43961945
But that's the thing. We used to turn stupid questions into great threads because you could get /tg/ to talk about almost anything if you just brought in a few different perspectives on the problem.
Meanwhile I try it today and look at the responses I get. People are just getting triggered and that's it.
>>43961901
>a commoner with a sharp dagger can try to kill a naked level 20 fighter who is unconscious and bound and not be able to kill him for several minutes. Even using a sword would take several swings on this not dodging person.
Explain how this is abstracted away.
Then explain why it applies to swords but magically doesn't apply to guns, because if he can dodge sword blows and dragons breath and the fucking ground, he's going to dodge fucking bullets instead of letting them bounce off him.
>magic missiles LITERALLY cannot miss and kills commoners, yet warriors eat plenty and live
>>43961966
You're still going at it from one direction while ignoring the other.
I could likewise ask you the same questions, just from a realism standpoint, at which you would probably respond that d&d isn't supposed to be realistic or something in that vein.
Well that's the problem isn't it? We're comparing something out of a game of numbers where HP for example exist, and something from reality where HP or levels and so on don't even exist.
>>43961964
>Meanwhile I try it today and look at the responses I get.
You get those responses because you're deliberately presenting a one sided thing. You're stripping everything that makes a level 20 fighter what he is and claiming that is a 'realistic' depiction of a character who is, by fluff and rules, a virtual demigod. The only perspective you're presenting is 'the autistic /k/unt unwilling to accept guns won't kill something' one.
>>43961941
My question is: why would this HP abstraction just fuck off and not work when confronted with real guns?
>>43953708
20 level fighter is basicly a human tank. How do you think?
>>43961993
From a realism standpoint a fighter CAN DO THESE THINGS. As a result of being level 20.
That means you need to bring whatever bullshit justification of the commoner doesn't have the right mindset to stab the fuck out of those beautiful abs, or the guy managed to pull some zen shit and not be burnt by the incinerating flame of a dragon or managed to flap his arms hard enough to not be killed by the fall.
But the mechanism as to how he survives these things is
not
the
point.
The point is he CAN survive being shot at while naked and unconscious by orcs standing next to him with crossbows and bows. Demonstrably.
He WILL survive just as well being shot by bullets from a SWAT team. They magically miss, or the bullets turn into popcorn for some reason or they all forgot to load ammo or they bounce off his skin or whatever.
Empiricism demonstrates this.
>>43961996
>You get those responses because you're deliberately presenting a one sided thing.
Actually the other side is just as guilty of this.
>You're stripping everything that makes a level 20 fighter what he is
And the people responding are stripping away everything the SWAT team and their equipment are.
No, SWAT teams aren't made of level 1 to level 3 dudes with guns that do 3d6 on full auto, or whatever it was.
>and claiming that is a 'realistic' depiction of a character who is, by fluff and rules, a virtual demigod.
So, what, you're claiming that it's realistic that a bullet squarely into the head doesn't even faze a dude?
See what I mean, both sides are going at it one-sidedly. I'm not actually in favor of the guns-are-awesome interpretation, I just have to devil's advocate it if I want the discussion to regard both sides fairly.
>>43962012
My question is: why would the way real guns consistently behave just fuck off and not work when confronted with an HP pool?
>>43962026
>He WILL survive just as well being shot by bullets from a SWAT team. They magically miss, or the bullets turn into popcorn for some reason or they all forgot to load ammo or they bounce off his skin or whatever.
Bruh it's simpler than that: everyone knows bullets hitting action heroes only make negligible flesh wounds.
>>43961964
You can't not apply tabletop rules to the SWAT team if that's how you're conceptualizing the Fighter. They have to exist within the same rules, which they both do, or there's no basis for comparison. Please, feel free to translate the actual characteristics of a D&D Fighter into your own little idea of how a SWAT team works.
Until you do, that's not a "different perspective", it's you being retarded.
>>43962034
>So, what, you're claiming that it's realistic that a bullet squarely into the head doesn't even faze a dude?
If that dude can do everything a level 20 fighter can, then yes, I would.
>>43962034
>No, SWAT teams aren't made of level 1 to level 3 dudes with guns that do 3d6 on full auto, or whatever it was.
And orcs with crossbows are going to murder the fuck out of people if they apparently hit them in the head, but level 20 fighters survive it.
Which is more deadly, being shot in the head by a steel bolt that penetrates through knight levels of armour, or being shot by a 5.56 rifle round?
Or are they equally deadly, as in it would kill NORMAL people dead?
Because if the fighter can survive being shot in the head at point blank range from one, why do you think he can't survive a point blank shot in the head from the other?
Then you're going to say "but that's not realistic! That's not what the rules about HP says!"
Guess what, D&D is said to be a fun role playing game. IT LIES.
>>43962043
Probably the same reason a mace chips off HP instead of bruising and breaking bones.
>>43962026
>From a realism standpoint a fighter CAN DO THESE THINGS. As a result of being level 20.
And from a realism perspective a gun can kill him with one good shot regardless of his level.
>But the mechanism as to how he survives these things is not the point.
Actually it is one full half of the OP question. Since it's comparing a fictional character to a real world type of character. One half of that comparison is completely dependent on the mechanism of reality, so we have to consider it.
>>43962054
>They have to exist within the same rules, which they both do
No they don't. SWAT teams actually exist.
>or there's no basis for comparison.
There is no strict basis for comparison. We can however make a judgment call by considering both sides of the problem as equally as possible.
>>43962070
>Guess what, D&D is said to be a fun role playing game. IT LIES.
Only half of the OP's question was about something from D&D.
>>43962071
A mace doesn't chip off HP, it actually does bruise and break bones. If we were next to each other and I had a mace I could easily demonstrate :^)
>>43962034
Actually: realizing has nothing to do with it: we're arguing D&D, where the rules... Are LAW.
And per the rules, nothing actually stops a PC, short of being reduced to -1 HP.
>>43960027
Yes because god forbid someone answer a D&D question with an answer from a D&D edition.
>>43962082
>we're arguing D&D
No we're not. We're comparing something from D&D to something from real life.
>>43962078
>Actually it is one full half of the OP question. Since it's comparing a fictional character to a real world type of character. One half of that comparison is completely dependent on the mechanism of reality, so we have to consider it.
So you are saying that a regular bullet could kill a Superman? I can't even describe how retarded that is I wish you are a troll because i refuse to believe that a person can be so dumb.
>>43962078
It doesn't matter if you're using rules or common sense here. A gun won't put down someone who can survive a fall from orbit onto solid concrete. That is fact. You're trying to say 'a swat team could beat a muscly guy with a sword', which is true, but not relevent to the op's question since a level 20 fighter from any system where it's possible to be a level 20 fighter is much much more than a muscly guy with a sword.
>>43962090
Yes we are. We're arguing a guy from dnd, who thus follows dnd rules, regardless of what the real world follows. What part of this don't you get?
>>43962078
>There is no strict basis for comparison.
Yes there is. Fighters originate in D&D, which is a rules system for modelling reality and the effects of supernatural forces on that reality.
That same system has rules for simulating modern SWAT teams.
The rules for Fighters and the rules for SWAT are a strict basis for comparison.
>>43962078
>A mace doesn't chip off HP, it actually does bruise and break bones.
In D&D, tardbot. D&D fighters are not regular people. If they play by our rules, then their supernatural toughness (or abstract damage resistance) that is demonstrated in D&D must be translated in some way. Otherwise it is not a faithful representation.
>>43962110
>D&D, which is a rules system for modelling reality
It's cute that you think that.
>>43962078
>And from a realism perspective a gun can kill him with one good shot regardless of his level.
So he won't get hit, as he can demonstrate he can "dodge" arrows while sleeping and people firing at point blank range by trained professionals.
Forget what you know about D&D. If you hear about a guy in myth who has gone up against a thousand archers and cut them all down after walking through their arrows like a man walks through rain, who has cut down dragons and giants alike and walked away from falls a thousand feet high, who has been stabbed and cut and does not die, and know that that's all true-
Are you going to say "yeah, this legendary hearo die if he meets a SWAT team because they'll be able to shoot him in the head"?
And are you really going to say that that's going to happen if you hear the guy's successfully managed to take out that many people with crossbows?
>>43962090
Real life which is, sadly for you, started in D&D. You can't arbitrarily inflate the stopping power of a mundane weapon (like a submachine gun) just because you dislike the results of it encountering a particular enemy. You're not the GM. You're not Monty Cook here. You're just another player who is discovering how much stronger a lvl 20 character is, purely through endurance in comparison to a normal human.
Also: https://youtu.be/jof_o9scrkU
Are you going to argue that a Russian soldier is tougher than a lvl 20? I know just living in Russia is continuous background EXP from adversity, like Australia or Africa, but that's ridiculous.
>>43962120
>combat involving swords and armor has no basis in reality
It's hilarious that you think that.
>>43962105
>It doesn't matter if you're using rules or common sense here. A gun won't put down someone who can survive a fall from orbit onto solid concrete.
This brings us back to the "what is HP" discussion from above. A fighter shouldn't be any more able to survive such a fall than a normal person. That's not how HP works. HP is an abstraction of experience, training, conditioning, and so on.
>>43962110
>Yes there is.
No there isn't. We're comparing apples to pitchforks here. We have to make it up as we go.
>>43962114
Not in D&D, tardbot. SWAT members are regular people.
>If they play by our rules, then their supernatural toughness (or abstract damage resistance) that is demonstrated in D&D must be translated in some way. Otherwise it is not a faithful representation.
It is translated. They are extremely well experienced and trained to deal with any situation imaginable. Their body is also conditioned and strengthened through experience or exercise, but not to any supernatural degree.
>>43962131
What are you going on about. Nobody here is a player or a GM.
Guys, you know you're being trolled. You know it and you're giving in anyway.
>>43955999
The crazy part is that cops don't know this either (yeah, big news, right?)
As part of a safety brief at university, we had the option to be tased (with the stun gun prods, not the barbs), if we signed a waiver. I did, and kept a conversation going with the cop throughout, mostly because I knew it was coming and I know how to lock my muscles (and I was an electrician before university). The guy was actively scared of me after he saw that the taser "didn't work".
So yeah, definitely a Will test.
>>43962144
Did you look at the OP? You think anyone was expecting anything else?
>>43961189
That sound like a really good way for the county to end up without a usable jail.
>>43962142
>They are extremely well experienced and trained to deal with any situation imaginable. Their body is also conditioned and strengthened through experience or exercise, but not to any supernatural degree.
Cool. Then that's not a level 20 fighter. That's a strong and experienced guy.
Let's pit this SWAT team against a level 1 commoner. If the commoner stabbed one in the chest with a knife, would the SWAT guy die? Or would he lose a couple of HP and move on with his life?
>>43962184
That's what HP means. If you don't like it it's not my problem.
>>43962142
>That's not how HP works. HP is an abstraction of experience, training, conditioning, and so on.
In your own autistic view., you mean. A Fighter is a legendary hero who gains supernatural prowess through valor. Experience, training, conditioning, and so on don't allow you to fail to avoid a meteorite, be struck by it at full force, and survive the resulting injuries, which is exactly what a Lv20 Fighter is capable of.
> We're comparing apples to pitchforks here. We have to make it up as we go.
No, there are actual rules for SWAT and Fighters, on the same system, for the purpose of modelling such an interaction.
>>43962180
No. in real life jail is able to hold any individual, no matter how strong.
>>43962198
I don't even know what the fuck you're trying to say at this point. Fighters are supernatural.
>>43962142
>A fighter shouldn't be any more able to survive such a fall than a normal person.
But they are. The system they are in fully supports that, and thus it is truth for the fighter. Sure you can house rule 'realism' into the game so that the fighter falling from orbit onto solid concrete dies, but as per the game they're from, they can survive it.
Again, it's cool if you prefer making people less survivable in your games, but this isn't 'can a houseruled into realism level 20 fighter beat a SWAT team?', it's 'can a level 20 fighter beat a SWAT team?' Thus if you want to argue a level 20 fighter can't survive being shot several times, you have to justify how they can survive falling onto solid concrete. Anything less and you're not arguing a level 20 fighter can't survive a SWAT team, you're arguing your own mental image of what a level 20 fighter SHOULD be can't survive a SWAT team.
>>43962216
I think it's OP, and he's insanely butthurt that he didn't say "level 2 Fighter" and make the question make sense.
The dude has no idea about D&D and is trying to damage-control his newfaggotry.
>>43961677
>fighters are not inherently superhuman
correct, a level 20 fighter is superhuman
your point doesn't contradict mine
>>43962241
2 level fighter would go down without much problem. What level he should be for that encounter to make sense?
>>43962254
Fighters, like all D&D classes, are the equivalent of an accomplished hero at level 1, capable of high-level mercenary work and combat against monsters. Plus Feats, I don't think a level 2 Fighter would be such easy pickings for a squad of SWAT police, especially assuming that the SWAT don't achieve the perfect ambush and instantly manage to all be blasting full-auto directly at the Fighter from round 1
>>43954481
>>43954578
Any system where health/durability increases with experience becomes pretty ridiculous. It's one of the things I'd really like to avoid if I were ever to write RPG mechanics myself.
Yes, I realise heroes having several times more HP than peasants isn't because their bones and tissue are made of harder materials, but I still don't particularly like it.
The guy you're arguing with types like you know who... So I'm pretty sure you're arguing with gimmickfag.
>>43954734
>Last time I read about it, it was an explosive bullet (is this even a thing for early WW2 soviets?)
Yes, it's a thing. They had an absolutely miniscule amount of explosives though. Their real purpose was to shoot down aircraft, hopefully igniting it's fuel or payload upon penetration. I suspect their only advantage in the countersniping role is the ability to throw high velocity dirt and metal into the face of the victim if they strike anywhere near him. Oh and potential hearing damage/disorientation I guess.
>>43962289
Why would they start firing full-auto right away though, and at vital organs? SWAT teams are usually trying to at most disable as a threat, so they'd be aiming for limbs, maybe the torso, but not the head like that one Anon said, not until the Fighter's already between them.
Plus there's the crazy shit that the Fighter would have by level 20, they'd pretty much never be running around without Haste, Barkskin, and all sorts of other buffs ready or always on. Haste especially would ruin the SWAT team's shit while they're telling the Fighter to surrender, except that it would be a free action.
>>43962120
>>D&D, which is a rules system for modelling reality and the effects of supernatural forces on that reality.
>D&D, which is a rules system for modelling reality
Misquoting is for faggots
>>43962078
>>From a realism standpoint a fighter CAN DO THESE THINGS. As a result of being level 20.
>And from a realism perspective a gun can kill him with one good shot regardless of his level.
Anon, you seem autistic so let me clarify things for you
>>From a realism standpoint a SUPERMAN CAN DO THESE THINGS. As a result of being SUPERMAN
>And from a realism perspective a gun can kill him with one good shot regardless of his SUPERMAN
See the problem?
Your entire argument hinges on your false interpretation, of the vague fluff, of what HP is supposed to be.
Complete ignoring the mountains of evidence to the contrary (such as the fact the systems in question actually have official stats for swat teams and their guns) that prove that a level 20 fighter is a superhuman.
Heck, if you insist on going by fluff there is still mountains of evidence. such as the fact a fighter is supposed to represent demigods such as herekles and cu cuilan
And its not just fighters. its level 20 characters in general
With all the feats that he or she likely has, most of them are probably dead in the first few attacks, if they're close enough together
>>43962525
i don't think herakles could win against a swat team desu
>>43954083
Remember, 1d6 is the equivalent of getting run through by a metal spear.
Bullets are really small and only such a big deal because blocking them is very hard.
Getting stabbed in the gut by a hugeass sword (2d6) is in no way less lethal than a 9mm round.
Bullets also have the advantage of being rapid, you can use a lot of them in a short timeframe.
>>43962563
Well you're badly mistaken.
Bullets wouldn't even pierce the hide of the Nemean Lion he wears around him.
>>43962142
>What are you going on about...
You're arguing that the rules are not sufficiently lethal for your tastes, and want to change the fundamental aspects of the system being used. In order to change the rules, or "house rule" the fighter to be weaker (why? It's already tier 6!) and the main method of changing the rule of game is to be the GM.
>>43962719
My mythologic nigger.
>>43962254
Depends on the ECL of the SWAT team, really.
Could we use d20 modern or (better) spycraft d20 to stat them accurately?
I remember one of the breaking points of d20 modern for me was the fact that armor was crap, and guns were very very dangerous at low levels, and healing was not-magical only (which could take a week or more of downtime.), and that you couldn't prestige into even basic professions, like a "soldier" until level 6.
Also: the only hero classes worth using were Dex and Int.
Considering that WWII soldiers are written up as level 6, modern soldiers are stronger, tougher, faster, and better trained, and SWAT officers are often former soldiers, meaning they have more experience. So it's not out of the question that they could be level 10.
>>43961646
Depends on the edition I guess, but in 5e it's explicitly stated that only talented, experienced or extremely dedicated warriors are fighters. So veteran soldiers or dedicated knights would have levels in fighter, but their less able comrades might just have a proficiency bonus to represent their training.
Keep in mind that at level 3, a fighter could probably take on 3-4 trained soldiers by themselves, which puts them at about the height of realistic human ability.
>>43963084
where are WW2 soldiers written up as level 6?
>>43960310
No, you slope headed retard, the shit she's covered in. Jesus Christ, why?
>>43963084
In what? Where?
>>43954084
Pretty much this. A SWAT team isn't taking down a demigod unless they have prior knowledge and prep time.
Conflict of mechanics though is a major issue. Real life would suggest a headshot is usually (but not always) fatal. In DnD, even a called shot on a human head with a firearm does what? Standard damage and sickened/stunned?
One could argue that a taser can put down anyone as long as they still rely on musculature to move, but DnD mechanics for stun effects suggest a level 20 fighter would pass that fort save. The roll is just a formality.
The only thing that means the argument massively in one direction is that at level 20, you're a demigod. Real-world mythology acknowledges the power behind that.
>>43954038
Fort save at a penalty (which a level 20 Fighter could probably make without much trouble short of "lol DC 200")
>>43962457
I might be wrong as not being a gun expert, but typical procedure is to fire for torso shots immediately for the largest chance of hitting. There's really no such thing as 'shooting to wound', given even legs and arms have some pretty major blood vessels and delicate systems in them.
Also buffs assume a caster helping the fighter, which may be (almost) a given when they're part of a party, but not when discussing solo fighter vs swat team
>>43963583
That's called a bikini plate, I believe. Spellcasters who want to look cool and provocative, while still being unhindered by actual plate armor weight, wear that rather than the usual bathrobe-cloak hybrids. Disguising your staff as a longsword is just a bonus.
Your enemies will go straight for your vitals and try to attack you last, since you're probably some stupid fighter, but who would've guessed - you're the one who calls down the meteor shower!
>>43964222
At level 20, buffs are merely assuming Wealth-by-level is in effect. Having access to powerful magic items is pretty in character for mythological heroes, even before you get to the DnD magical-christmas-tree effect.
>>43964295
What magic items give permanent haste and barkskin? Buffs are entirely seperate things from magic items in most usages of the word, referring to temp abilities rather than permanent item effects. I mean I suppose they could have potions, but then they'd need buffing time, and haste only lasts half a minute from a potion so they'd need some pretty good timing to pre-use it
Who wins in a free for all between Achilles, Beowulf, Cu Chulainn, and Hercules?
>>43964331
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/boots-of-speed
Boots of Speed are a wonderous item that let the wearer be effected by Haste for 10 rounds a day, and only take a free action to activate.
>>43964377
This is the question the Fate/Stay Night setting was created to answer.
That, andwould you a loli King Arthur
>>43964410
Oh yeah, forgot those were a thing. Still wouldn't assume that the fighter has a shit ton of buffs up without a caster to give them though, especially stuff like Barkskin/Protection from arrows
>>43963410
>>43963798
Pathfinder. It was one of the advennture paths.
>>43964377
Probably Hercules, he's the most god there. After him it's probably Achilles=>Cuchu>Beowulf
>>43964489
Mind you, those were WWII soldiers in a souped up magical version of the war. What with the magic tanks rolling about and all.
Still annoyed they never gave us rules for non-animated tanks there.
>>43964551
They really weren't. They had no magic gear, I don't even think they had actual magical weapons at their disposal, but all the soldiers were written as some variation of level six, and none were described as superhuman killing machines.
>>43961142
>>43961002
>Chainmail
>controlling /thousands/ of fighters at once
>>43953968
By standard rules, although even with the uncharitable rules i've seen in some universal gun design supps, they would still beat the shit out of a Swat Team because the magic weapons a 20th level fighter is FESTOONED with still do more damage, and the armor they have is easily as good as or better than being coated head to toe in the best modern armor.
I mean, it's probably literally going to be fucking magic.
We don't ask this question about wizards because they obviously have like, a dozen obvious solutions to guys trying to kill them, even guys who are like dumbed down, one or two spell rival wizards in terms of damage output/guys with a couple of rather good wands.
Dumbed down because their guns have no provision to deal with "I cast this rather low level deflect all ranged attack spells, and incinerate anyone who tries to wade in and punch me. Or I punch them back and win because I'm a 20th level wizard. I'm pretty boss in a fight."
>>43964455
It's unrealistic to assume that a fighter has a magic item for the most common buffs in the game? Five seconds in google found me several magic items granting those for a fraction of their wealth by level, and that's not including custom magic items or if the fighter took craft.
>>43964377
Hard to say, both Hercules and Cu have defeated their respective gods of death so it'd probably be a tossup between them.
On the other hand, Achilles damn near overturned fate by being really angry, so it could very well be him.
Beowulf is kind of a pussy by comparison, Siegfried might be a better hero from that area.
>>43964431
I thought lolis were pre-pubescent, rather than mid-pubescent?
>>43961662
Have you ever heard of trigger discipline? You don't just hold down the trigger and spray bullets at a target. You fire in short bursts.
>>43960363
>No living human has abilities on par with a level 5+ fighter.
I would argue that many have skill checks above their level, but not HP to match. HP really is what breaks down at higher levels because no one can survive two hundred foot falls regularly, but feats of skill abound (like lots of attacks per round is possible).
>>43961687
Motherfucker, you are absolutely retarded.
It's kind of amazing how retarded you are.
Your average infantry soldier carries 210 rounds for his M4, and it'd be a hell of a stretch for him to fire all of it before he was dead from the fighter killing him.
>>43965298
That assumes they'd all be bunched up and that there's less than ten of them.
>>43965322
Yes they can, and no they shouldn't
>>43960618
>You are grossly underestimating SWAT teams. They are almost as well trained as many special operations units.
/k/ommando here
Thanks, I needed that laugh today.
>>43965420
>assuming there is less than 10 of them
Son, they only hit the fighter on a 20. With his protection from missile amulet they do on average if they ALL have point blank shot 6 damage per hit.
Lets fucking assume there are 20 of them. The fighter at this point moves at 60 feet around or 120 if charging.
If they aren't bunched up then likely not all swat team members can see the fighter at once. However, lets just see how many total bullets it would take to kill him.
20(soldiers)*210(bullets each)*1/20(takes a 20 to hit)=210*3=630
So all of them if they shoot every bullet will do 630 damage to the fighter.
>>43954110
You mean that thing that only happened to one guy IRL, and he lived?
>>43954673
>tank a 120mm cannon shell
>tank
>>43965499
Yeah, but thats not all in one round, and not all from one shot.
Wouldn't a 20th level fighter be packing at minimum DR3/- from some sort of enchanted Adamantine armor, and a ring of regeneration at that point?
