Why did Cyberpunk 2020 never make it big or last as long as other renown RPGs (Like Shadowrun, D&D, White Wolf, Dark Heresy, etc)?
>>43902087
It had as long a run as any given edition of those games, but ran out of steam when the author did. He retired RTal for health reasons.
>>43902087
It became the "It's like Shadowrun but..." setting.
is this the version with dress up dolls?
>>43902400
No. That was 3rd edition. Done in a hurry, and it shows.
>>43902087
Probably worth noting that several of those properties (D&D, Shadowrun, WW) were acquired by multiple publishers, which extended their lifespan through one or more new editions.
>>43902529
Apparently that was placeholder art that mistakenly got sent to the publishers.
>>43902665
That's one of the theories. The other theory is that Mike has an extensive action figure collection and he genuinely thought they would look really good for the book.
>>43902360
This description is sad, because Shadowrun started as "It's like Cyberpunk but..."
>>43902087
Because it doesn't have elves, and the Cyberpunk literary movement was dying in the late 90s.
>>43902860
That's what a shitty budget and no publicity does.
Maybe the witcher slavs can renew interest in the licence
>>43902937
One can hope. But "Maximum" Mike Pondsmith apparently has some input on the design. I know that, at first, it sounds like a good thing because he did create the game in the first place, consider that it's possible he's never really progressed beyond 80's era game design (when the original Cyberpunk 2013 was written). He is responsible for Dollpunk, after all (art aside, the rules sucked).
>>43903089
True, but I feel like it'll end up being largely setting related. I don't get the feeling that Projekt is interested in making games that don't perform the way they want them to.
>>43903127
It uses Interlock, so it'll probably be something like CP2020 with a new skin. At least, CP2077 probably will.
>>43903148
>It uses Interlock
I have a love/hate relationship with Interlock. But I think CD Projekt is smart enough to take a chainsaw to large sections of the absolutely fucking horrendous skill list. So I'm going to be optimistic.
>>43903175
What's wrong will the skill list?Full disclosure: I play GURPS, so huge skill lists aren't a problem.
The bigger worry is that CP2020 channels characters into certain roles fairly heavily. Combat? Solo or get fucked.
>>43903224
>Full disclosure: I play GURPS, so huge skill lists aren't a problem.
Then I'm afraid we have nothing to discuss. Because if you can't take a look at the skill list and just inherently realize what the problem is with having skills like Zoology, Personal Grooming, and Interviewing in your skill list is, then I'm pretty certain no amount of explaining the problem to you is either going to convince you or that you'll even "get" it.
Here's my best shot, though: I've always been a believer that you can condense several different activities into a more succinct skill. For example, you can put Zoology under a general "Science" or "Knowledge" skill and maybe allow for a Zoology specification, you can just chop Personal Grooming entirely and assume it's part of your Attractiveness attribute, and Interviewing can just be combined with some other Charisma skill related to schmoozing with the NPC in question. A skill list that details literally every single possible activity a human being can ever engage in is a bad skill list.
>>43903224
>The bigger worry is that CP2020 channels characters into certain roles fairly heavily. Combat? Solo or get fucked.
This we can both agree to, though.
>>43903371
>For example, you can put Zoology under a general "Science" or "Knowledge" skill and maybe allow for a Zoology specification, you can just chop Personal Grooming entirely and assume it's part of your Attractiveness attribute, and Interviewing can just be combined with some other Charisma skill related to schmoozing with the NPC in question.
Oh no, that's fine. Personal Grooming and Interviewing are stupidly narrow skills anyway.
I actually think they should axe the skill list from the character sheet entirely and replace it with a box for you to write down your own skills, like GURPS does (bottom right).
>>43903420
I'm actually okay with the GURPS skill list because I believe there's the caveat that no matter how big they get, the game master has the option of condensing it for his particular game.
>>43903440
Well yeah, you don't need 90% of skills for any given game.
>>43903371
Where's that sheet from? It's not the 2.01 rulebook's.
>>43903591
I just Google image searched "Cyberpunk 2020 character sheet" and clicked on the one I distinctly remember playing with back when I actually played Cyberpunk 2020. I couldn't tell you which exact version it was - I'm going to guess V2.0
>>43903753
Yeah, this is the 2.01 one. The one you've posted has SIN, CBIN, Initiative, and those calculations in the portrait box.
>>43903224
Nomads are decent for combat as well
>>43903902
They still don't have Combat Sense, and that's a real problem.
>>43903879
Yours is actually the one I remember playing with.
>>43903926
True, but Nomads get to call in an army for their special ability
>>43902693
If the authors really needed place holders, they would have left blank spaces, simple drawings, not elaborated scenes with dressed up Barbies and Big Jim in home made cyberpunk accessories. It shows the author's legendary bad taste.
>>43903963
How fast do you think a Nomad pack can get to the top of the Arasaka building in Night City from wherever they've been pissing about?
>>43902087
I hate to say it, but I think it's because it's a lot of cool ideas with absolutely zero playtesting or consideration of what makes a tabletop game work.
I love Cyberpunk 2020. I have a lot of fond memories. But in truth, it's a fucking mess.
>>43903969
I think it was meant to be 'and here's what we want the art to depict'. You know, like how you're supposed to use Poser.
>>43904027
I do like how explosives in core are kind of useless.
>>43903992
That's why you plan things out, call in the pack before the assault
I still prefer 2020 to Shadowrun. Mostly because I hate magic and nonhuman races
>>43904047
IIRC for every unit of explosive, you exponentially increase the blast radius too. You can nuke a state by stacking a shed full of gas cans
>>43904084
Or you use the rules in Primitive Screwheads.
>>43903371
I'm a CP2020 DM and I agree with you. Plenty skills could have been condensed in one with specializations.
Where I don't completely agree is when you say long skill lists are necessarily bad. CP allows you to play any character you might want from street ops, to dealers, police detectives, corporate scumbags... Shadowrun has a shorter skill list but the default character is the street ops, the shadowrunner. Long skill lists are not a problem if the skills are relevant.
>>43903963
>>43903992
>>43904064
As a game master, it would be more a pain in the ass to suddenly have to deal with the bookkeeping of many more NPCs than I had intended. That's why I don't like that special ability. Not because of the utility, but because of the effect it has on the game.
Plus I always thought it was kind of weird how these guys would supposedly show up and literally sacrifice their lives for you without even asking for a piece of the rewards.
When the skill list is too long for a specialist to actually be good at his job, you need to either add more skill access or trim the skill list. Both options have aesthetic limits.
>>43904130
>Where I don't completely agree is when you say long skill lists are necessarily bad. CP allows you to play any character you might want from street ops, to dealers, police detectives, corporate scumbags... Shadowrun has a shorter skill list but the default character is the street ops, the shadowrunner. Long skill lists are not a problem if the skills are relevant.
Not going to disagree with you. But I will say it's really hard to keep all players engaged throughout the game if you allow for all those disparate character types to be played. If you throw combat at them, the solos get to have all the fun while everybody else hides fucks around on their smartphone for the duration of combat. Throw netrunning at them and the netrunner gets to have his own little solo adventure while everybody else sits it out and fucks around on their smartphone.
A long skill list is fine if you're planning out what kind of game you want (a combat-oriented game versus a corporate investigation and intrigue sort of game), but once the dice start rolling it best be shortened up to only what's relevant for the game at hand.
>>43904222
That's nomad blood man. The way my Nomad player wrote his pack up explains it. When a male of the Red Legs becomes a man, he swears a blood oath to the rest of the pack. No matter what, he will lay down his life for another member if need be.
But yeah, bookkeeping 150 NPCs does get annoying.
>>43904450
I might be taking the game too seriously, but imagining 100 Nomads charging into machine-gun laden tanks and cyborgs of some megacorporation and getting cut down just because your PC asked them to is a cartoonish silliness on the level of a Saints Row game. I thought Cyberpunk took itself a tad more seriously than that.
>>43904504
The Red Legs are a bit more armored than that. Imagine guys from Mad Max but with aging mortars, anti tank guns, and homemade 20mm rifles.
Cyberpunk is inherently silly. The first rule is style over substance
>>43904504
You aren't going to get that level of fanaticism with only a few points in Family. Get your Family up high, and you're close to Clan Chief.
>>43904518
Hell, look through this supplement from Cyberspace (Rolemaster Cyberpunk) and see the ridiculous fashions.
>>43904516
>>43904536
Fucking fuck my quoting
>>43904516
Style over substance doesn't mean stupidity. Also, the chance of having a whole nomad clan performing a suicide attack on a corporation is extremely low and would require plenty role playing.
>>43904605
It's not the whole clan of course, it's about a fifth
>>43903175
>interlock
>horrendous skills list
To be fair, the interlock/fnff system is actually only uses 2/3rds of the given attributes. Attractiveness, charisma and tech are just rpg elements that are thrown in from the cyberpunk rulebooks.
Interlock/fnff is just moving, shooting, grappling, hitting, dodging, and throwing. Everything else is adding by cyberpunk 2013/2020.
>>43902360
>>43902860
>we've reached a point where Shadowrun is the /tg/ codifier for cyberpunk
>>43905176
Friday Night Firefight is actually part of CP2013.
>>43903175
>>43903148
Doesn't it use Fuzion?
>>43905233
fnff is just what that interlock(non-mecha) rulebook is called, and the only real difference I've personally noticed between 2020's standard interlock is the addition of the "lift" index. Though, I'm no expert and would actually appreciate having any other differences pointed out for me.
>>43905327
FNFF is book 2 of the CP2013 box set, is what I'm saying.
>>43903089
Just the rules? It's one of the most stupidly written SETTINGS in RPG history. You could run it with GURPS and it would still be an irredeemably stupid game. Not just bad, idiotic.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14681.phtml
This review points out a lot of the really obvious stuff someone creating the game should've probably noticed.
>>43905409
It's trying to follow on from the Fourth Corporate War and Cybergeneration, isn't it?
>>43905352
Oh, it most definitely comes with the set, exactly like chainmail 3rd and odnd (which I think was the point).
Though I do sorta wish 2020 came with the base combat system also separate, since it wouldve given a better foundation for creating homebrew mechanics/worlds.
Sci-Fi settings need to be constantly updated unless they're far out there. Otherwise they completely lose all ability to be played straight.
Like how Shadowrun updated all the tech from wire based to wireless. Having a Sci-Fi setting that doesn't account for simple wi-fi seems ridiculous now.
>>43905447
>chainmail 3rd and odnd
Didn't come together. OD&D has its own alternative combat system.
Also, note that FNFF was never sold separately.
>>43905460
Unless they're accounting for major radiation a la minovsky particles from gundam. Though we've all seen those visual representations of wifi, so it's safe to say that it's possible they'd snake through any opening it can get through.
>>43905225
It's just the most popular system for cyberpunk
>>43905477
What? Chainmail 3rd only exists because they wanted to putt it in a boxed set with odnd.
It's part of the rec equipment besides being heavily mentioned in the dedication and forward.
I might sound retarded for stating that but I'm not sure if you're one of the "Blackmoor didn't use chainmail thus it's not a part of odnd" crowd, but if not, disregard.
By the time Pondsmith made cyberpunk, chainmail was part of the set... in fact, didn't he make it the same year the chainmail based Holmes edition got replaced by the alt combat based rules?
Apparently, CP2077 will have setting updates, but not rules ones.
>>43905601
>chainmail was part of the set
Chainmail was never part of the D&D box set. Men and Magic has an alternate combat system in it, and Greyhawk wrote Chainmail out entirely.
Chainmail 3e is '75, and is an actual rules update with spell complexity and guff. Swords and Spells is '76, and is Chainmail's replacement. Neither of them were ever incorporated into the box set.
CP2013 is '88, which is the year before AD&D 2e came out.
>>43905245
Cyberpunk 2077 uses Fuzion. The other editions rule different versions of Interlock.
>>43905703
I was meaning the RTG Witcher game.
>>43905425
Fourth Corporate War yes, Cybergeneration no. That's a separate continuity.
>>43905727
Is CP2077 building on CG2027?
>>43905716
Is Cyberpunk 2077 going to be an RPG using RPG mechanics? I thought it would be some kind of action RPG like The Witcher.
>>43905748
I think so.
>>43902087
The lack of a suitable, updated version doesn't help it any.
>>43905800
RTG are making a Witcher RPG based on Fuzion. According to something I was reading onTVTropes, CP2077 is just going to be setting updates running off the CP2020 rules base. Not sure if they're going to put out a new corebook or anything.
I still say everyone who liked CP2020 should give Interface Zero 2.0 a shot. It honestly feels like the streamlined sequel.
>>43905815
I really dislike the Fuzion system. I can't explain precisely what it is about it I don't like, but I generally tend to think of any generic, rules-heavy, detail-heavy game other than GURPS as "an inferior version of GURPS". I'm okay with rules-light generic games, since they serve a different niche, but if I want to do almost anything I "should" be doing with Fuzion, GURPS is probably what I'd use instead. That said, it's a shame about The Witcher, I always like it when they invent a specialized system for cases like that. Shows that more effort went into making the RPG than a simple desire to cash-in on a successful video game (it's something the Dragon Age RPG sort of managed, although that one was shit for different reasons). I'm fully in support of using Interlock for the TTRPG version of CP2077, assuming they update the setting and fix some of the more glaringly broken mechanics.
>>43905892
Fuzion is Interlock+HERO, which means it should be fairly flexible.There is a Polish Witcher RPG, but mentioning it draws people butthurt about the RTG thing.
https://rtalsoriangames.wordpress.com/2015/08/02/r-talsorian-games-and-cd-projekt-red-announce-the-witcher-role-playing-game/
Interestingly, whoever writes these blog posts thinks CP2020 used Fuzion instead of Interlock, so maybe they're going to use Interlock?
>>43905892
I used Fuzion a lot for DMing "Record of Lodoss Wars" and "Sengoku". It worked really very well with those two settings.
Strangely, I have trouble playing Cyberpunk with it. I DM'd countless campaigns and Cyberpunk adventures, incorporated the Fuzion hit location chart, but somehow, using Fuzion with Cyberpunk feels "wrong" to me. For me, Fuzion, is more connected with high-fantasy and supers than with realism and grittiness. Maybe it's the Hit Points system, maybe it's the melee damage that scales with strength strength while firearms keep the same damage (ex. a normal human with Strength 3 will do 3d6 damage with a sword while an adventurer with STR 5 will do 5d6. At the same time a 9mm pistol does always only 2d6 points of damage).
Also, Fuzion fixes none of the issues Interlock suffers. It's not simpler, the skill list isn't shorter, characters don't use less skills (a Sengoku character will easily have 16 to 18 skills, while a Cyberpunk character has 10 + 3 to 4 hobby skills)...
>>43902087
Because it was in direct competition with Shadowrun, and Shadowrun is a kitchen sink setting. Most people in this hobby prefer an ostensible genre setting with a bunch of narrative non-sequitors thrown in, rather than a more pure genre game. Same reason Deadlands is way more popular than any pure wild west games. Pretty much everyone I've ever talked to or read or heard from who was playing back then has pretty much had the same story about finding Shadowrun, and having the reaction of "wow, cyberpunk AND magic, now it's even cooler". Which is the exact opposite of how I felt about it, but clearly that's a minority opinion.
So that, and the fact that Shadowrun is incredibly similar to Dungeons and Dragons. It's in a cyberpunk setting, but almost everything about it is familiar to a DnD player, from having wizards and magic to the "dungeon crawl" design, to straight up letting you play as elves. A lot of gamers are ambivalent toward things that aren't already familiar, and Cyberpunk 2020 would have felt pretty different, whereas Shadowrun was like, "hey, we have that, but it's like DnD now", so I imagine that brought in a lot more players.
>>43902087
I think that one of Cyberpunk's biggest fail is that too many crappy supplements got published. Shadowrun's supplements are, globally seen, of higher quality.
Then, there's the style. Shadowrun started with that very typical cyberpunk/western/fantasy style. You have orcs and elves, dusters wearing shadowrunners, mohawks and leather jackets everywhere, the baddest corporation's headquarters looks like an Aztec temple, and police duty has been outsourced to Lone Star Security (can recognize them at their uniform: white helmet with black visor, black leather jacket and pants...).
Cyberpunk 2020 doesn't have those recognition factors. Too many genres are wildly mixed together (noir, anime, cartoons, post-apocalyptic, comedy, splatterpunk, glam rock/visual kei...) without any cohesion making the game eclectic and generic at the same time. What does the NCPD's police uniform looks like? You have to look in the cop supplement. How does the Arasaka tower looks like? You have to look in the Night City supplement.
Finally, Shadowrun got constantly updated. It has arrived at the 5th edition by now. Cyberpunk 2020 is still at the second edition, which is 25 years old by now.
>>43907443
>You have to look in the cop supplement.
No you don't. Max Hammermann in the core is NCPD.
>>43906851
>"dungeon crawl" design
It's way closer to a police TV show design than a dungeon crawler.
>>43907443
CP2020 had some of the best written and most flavourful splats I've ever read for any system.
>>all these Shadowrun fanbois boosting their pet system
Cyberpunk 2020 consistently outsold SR, and was much more widely played in non-English-speaking markets. Nice revisionism, bros.
>>43907525
>Nice revisionism, bros.
One is a dead system, not the other.
>>43907466
The cop depicted on page 17 (CP2020 V. 2.0) could be any random cop of any police department. Could as well be Strawberry (what a shitty name for a male cop). Pictures and short stories don't match... well, unless Kerry Eurodyne became a trap after Alt's kidnapping and Mr. Ice did a sex change (should've switched his name to Mrs. Ice).
Still, imagining it's Max Hammerman. What does he wear? A normal police uniform with 1980's peak cap, a flak vest and soft boots. Not as badass as recognizable as a black and white helmet, black armored leather jacket with Lone Star insignia, and steel reinforced boots (not counting the sadistic smirk on the face when arresting street scum).
>>43907518
It had also some of the worst and most superfluous supplements ever made - and I have low standards.
>>43907612
Like what?
>>43907622
For example, everything made by Atlas Games, the superfluous equipment catalogues (Chromebooks 1 to 4, Morgan Blackhand's Street Weapons, Rache Bartmoss' Brainware Blowout), the linear adventures (Forlorn Hope, Edgerunners), and the GM screen (two eclectic images and plenty useless information).
>>43907943
>superfluous equipment catalogues
>gear
>superfluous
Out.
>>43907960
You can get too much gear.
Gear needs to be properly balanced and limited, or it opens up plotholes (why does Gun X cost more than Gun Y when Gun X is worse - answer: meta balance), pure balance problems, the inability of the GM to completely supervise all player equipment, broken equipment combinations that have to be discovered through practical experience, unnecessary choices between tiny variations, lack of granularity that means there's a perfect weapon for every situation with no trade-off, internal power differences for weapons around the same price and availability - basically, more choice isn't always better.
I personally vouch that any game needs only one section for equipment - first list generic equipment such as your average .45 pistol without getting too dinky, then list consumables/healing items/sundries, then list specific pieces of gear that need special stats, and then finish off with rare/unique/setting-exclusive equipment that also needs fluffing. Thirty pages at the very most, and you have what you need.
>>43907960
It's so easy to model gear and weapons for Cyberpunk that, yes, I can say that 6 catalogues are too much. At 25 bucks a catalogue, that's a total of 150 bucks to have crap like thumb lighters, subdermal kill counts, and 10 times the same gun with a different name.
>>43908191
>paying money
>>43908205
Of course, now we're laughing. A quick search and we can download the whole Cyberpunk 2020 collection in under an hour. But in the early 1990's getting stuff wasn't that easy. You wanted your books, you had to buy, steal or make physical copies of them (which also costs money). As internet became more widespread, you got access to plenty amateur material, making buying books not necessary.
>>43906743
Does it even have a magic mechanic? I don't recall there being one.Sengoku sounds like some kind of historical Japanese thing, but how do you run Lodoss?
>>43908264
There's a Lodoss pdf floating about that uses some guy's homebrew Atomik supplements. The Fuzion pdf you can get from DTRPG has a magic section in it, but the '98 one that's available free doesn't.
>>43908264
Sengoku is medieval Japan. For Record of Lodoss War see enclosed PDF.
>>43908304
>mfw meta-earth doesn't host the Atomik Fuzion supplements anymore, so this isn't playable
>>43908377
Just google Atomik Fuzion
>>43907543
>The other is a Undead System
FTFY
>>43908507
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/rvx09z80j5tji/Fuzion#rvx09z80j5tji
>>43908205
And here is the other reason the game died off
>>43909840
If that's the case, how come every other RPG survives? Cyberpunk died because of Shadowrun and CPV3.
>>43909878
>how come every other RPG survives?
They don't? Most RPGs lose money. Even the biggest names don't make that much. The industry survives on very thin margins compared to say, M:tG or WH40k.
Any system that doesn't attain a certain critical mass of paying customers is doomed. It's perfectly germane to point at people who say "Oh I love this game, I wish it hadn't died" and ask them if they ever spent one red cent to prevent that happening.
>>43909936
Well, don't point that shit at me. I was -4 when this game came out, and I don't think it was ever sold in NZ.
>>43910027
Fair enough. Hey, what was it like being -4? I don't remember, myself, it was a long while ago.
>>43910058
I only remember it in potentia, you know?
Cyberpunk 2020 was very successful in Europe. It got translated in German, French, Italian, Polish and was, with SR, the only foreign cyberpunk game. Germans liked it so much they made a new edition in 2007 or so.
>>43905409
And yet, it's still better than Shadowrun in terms of coherency and causality...
>>43905580
No, it's not
fuck off
