Previous thread: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/43522393/
Pastebin shit: http://pastebin.com/2MSV2Y8m
(contains info dumps, summaries, and other crap; not up to date because of procrastination)
You are Hauptmann Lukas Weisenkranz, a company commander of the venerable Grossreich of Czeiss, servant and acquaintance of Kaiser Adam Paulus. You are currently participating in the Invasion of Delschau, a company commander of the Reich.
The Grossreich has declared war upon the illegitimate states of Strosvald and Delschau, after decades of tolerating their disrespect of their fatherland could no longer be tolerated, as in times of great need they let the calls for aid to the Reich go unheeded. Their contempt for the Grossreich must have been great, as their miserable armies offered little resistance to the invincible will of the Kaiser.
In Delschau you bowled over the defenses of the enemy without much trouble. Strosvald seemed to be even less competent. You had heard that many of the lesser lords of Strosvald had turned their coats in return for promises of autonomy over their wealth and lands, betraying their own countrymen without thought. Such behavior could never be found in a citizen of the Grossreich.
Suffice it to say you felt that the conquest of these lands could only be beneficial to the world. The hope of an everlasting peace under an endless empire seemed a naïve goal to you; all empires of history had crumbled, and there were empires before them that were mere dust in the wind. Such an ambition seemed out of place coming from a man who had shared your experience in a hopeless war, yet somehow he had seemed as earnest as when you had first met when he outlined his plans and his need for you and his other comrades.
It was initially amusing in a way, but the ideas took hold somewhere that you thought you had forgotten forever.
You and a section of your forces had broken through the enemy lines, yet managed to avoid an enemy counterattack that is now running up against your reorganizing platoons. You ordered the platoons accompanying you, 3rd and 5th, a tank platoon and a heavy tank platoon respectively, to hold the village and the road you had just taken against further Delschau reinforcements.
You would teach the unblooded soldiers-for-the-holiday of this resort nation to fear the might of the Kaiser.
It is not long before you encounter what appears to be the enemy. They are ununiformed, only identifiable as enemy troops by their weapons and yellow armbands. Most likely militiamen, drawn up from the local territory to bolster the numbers of the defenders. They appear to lack any heavy weaponry, likely not having been trained in their use. They were filler soldiers, their only purpose being to shoot and hide.
From your position in a stunted litter of evergreens you observe a G-230 dive in. They scatter like rats as the fighter bomber’s machine guns stitch their way across their group. The strafing run does not seem to have had a great effect; the enemies were able to disperse enough in the long grass to minimize casualties.
However, the close presence of the plane appears to have masked your approach. Their backs are turned to you as you close in.
>break through their formation and hurry to the more substantial troops; this chaff will not hold on its own
>methodically destroy the militia; the possibility of being surrounded is unacceptable
>Find a way around them and try to remain undetected
>>43874310
Fugg it's midnight here in Yurop.
>>methodically destroy the militia; the possibility of being surrounded is unacceptable
Don't want to risk having a Panzerfaust/AT rifle shooting us in the rear.
>>43874310
>>break through their formation and hurry to the more substantial troops; this chaff will not hold on its own
if they do not have weapons that can get through our armor then we have no reason to stay around and mop them up, just blow through them and button up
>>43875103
One second thought this is better. Do as much damage to the militia ranks while we smash through, Blitzkrieg style.
>>43874310
>break through their formation and hurry to the more substantial troops; this chaff will not hold on its own
If there is a company bugler, have him sound a fox hunting call. Time to collect some pelts.
>>43875099
this is 1932(ish)
shaped charges didn't show up until 1940
we only have to worry about medium velocity guns
>>43875154 nice to see that someone is reposting my pictures
>>43875179
Yeah I saved It during an earlier thread. So yeah see >>43875154 my other post then.
>>43875268
And in my half asleep daze I forgot to say
"if there aren't AT weapons" before "see my other post".
>>43875179
The year in setting is 1932, but the date there isn't exactly indicative of the technology level of the setting. I'll hold off on saying exactly what the equivalent technology level is, but it's comparable to 1938 to 1939. I will say however, that the character has no knowledge of shaped anti tank charges so they are not expected to be encountered, especially against a third rate army.
1/2
You order the platoon forward. “This flock of pigeons is not worth our time,” you say, “do not stop, kill any who get in your way, but do not give them any more of the Kaiser’s time than necessary.”
The militiamen don’t notice you until you’re nearly on top of them. You hear muffled shouts of alarm from within your cupola, and they part before your formation. One of them seems more valiant than most, you see out of the left side, as a determined rag of a man sprints up to your tank and leaps towards it, his impact making a soft thump on the side of the vehicle. The next you see him he is rolling behind your formation and quickly growing smaller. It appears he could not find purchase on your tank’s hull. You don’t even hear the rings of rifle fire against the hull; the militia melts before you.
With further observation, they appear to be regrouping in places as the G-230 circles around for another pass at the vast selection of targets in the area. You have long passed them by, however. Their mischievous presence will have to be tolerated for a moment.
2/2
Your platoon climbs a shallow hill, and the battlefield opens up to you. There are a variety of troubling developments, although thankfully there are far fewer of these than places where your soldiers are holding. The places in the most trouble are gaps in the formation, notably the flanks and a widening division between 6th and 7th platoon, groups of dismounted cavalry. They are under attack from what appears to be nearly two hundred soldiers of varying dress, as well as just over a dozen tanks. Their advance is deliberate, smoking craters a sign of aerial harassment. The spark and clang of antitank rifles striking armor plate occurs frequently, but with little effect on the advance of the enemy.
To the west, you see 2nd platoon in a pitched, brutal battle with twice its number in various armor. They seem to have just started fighting, in contrast to your infantry’s situation.
The distance between them is too great to sit atop the hill and shoot with effective results. You’ll have to deal with these in detail.
>Crush the attack upon the infantry
>assist 2nd Platoon and come back to the infantry after rendezvous with 2nd Platoon
>do something nuts and split your platoon
>>43875637
It's probably incredibly important to mention that 2nd Platoon is a tank platoon. I thought that I had typed that but I didn't.
>>43875637
>assist 2nd Platoon and come back to the infantry after rendezvous with 2nd Platoon
The infantry at least has air support.
You raise 2nd Platoon over the radio. Their commander is young, but inexperienced and jumpy. Some encouragement would go a long way towards the unit’s survival.
“Leutnant Hopf,” you say levelly, “this is Hauptmann Weisenkranz.”
“Hauptmann!” the youthful officer’s voice crackles back, “There’s too many of them! We need to retreat!”
“Calm down.” You respond, “Keep engaging, if you retreat they will punch into our foothold in this country. Hold your ground, and I will arrive. You are a proud soldier of the Reich, do not disappoint the Kaiser.”
“But I-“
“Hold your position, damn you!” you let some frustration slip out in that transmission, “If you will not hold I will find somebody who will!”
“I-I will fight, Hauptmann!”
“Good. Weisenkranz, out.” You take another look around while you still have a wide view of the battle. Your infantry platoons are slowly giving ground, as the Delschau counterattack comes closer to the fortifications your troops had captured. The platoon commanders must be thinking of conducting a mobile defense in the forests. You try to raise them to get them to hold fast so air support will have easy targets, but either their commands are disrupted or their radios are having problems.
One problem after another, you think to yourself. You close in upon the rear of the formation opposing 2nd Platoon. Half of 2nd Platoon’s six tanks have been knocked out, or immobilized, judging by how the remaining half was using them as cover. They had taken out an equal number of the advancing Delshau armor, but that was hardly enough to stop their advance.
You are approximately one and a half kilometers away. You are too far away for your platoon to lay down effective fire on the more heavily armored tanks that make up nearly three quarters of the formation. Your eagle eyed gunner could probably make the shots, but your bodyguards’ vehicles are not crewed by such exceptional men. They will need to close almost half of the distance before they are in recommended maximum firing distance.
>fire and advance from here; perhaps the distraction will disrupt the enemy formation
>keep the advantage of surprise and close in to effective range before opening fire
>>43876328
>Keep the advantage of surprise and close in to effective range before firing
But advance as quickly as possible. We don't know how long our comrades will be able to hold.
>>43876568
Seconded.
“Platoon, hold your fire until my command.” You relay to your operator, “I don’t want anybody so much as laying their finger on the trigger until you can hit with the first shot you fire. Don’t try anything fancy, don’t do something risky unless I tell you to do it. If we haven’t cleaned up these canned peasants in three volleys then you’re on half rations for the next month. Is that clear?”
A solitary request for leniency was drowned in yes sirs. “Good. All tanks, full speed forward.”
The ground was far rougher than it appeared. Your gunner struggled to make adjustments with every heave the tank made over hidden rocks or knotted scrub; the other gunners in the platoon would have given up at this point until it was time to engage.
2nd platoon and its opponents continued to exchange fire, but neither side made a decisive shot. Delschau shots plunged into the smoldering hulls being used as cover, while the tankers of 2nd platoon’s shots could not find the weak points in the enemy’s frontal armor.
Another exchange goes poorly for the Imperial defenders; a shell from a Delschau D2 tank strikes the turret of the leftmost tank with a screeching crack. The stricken tank continues to return fire but the placement of the shot meant that the crew could not have been unscathed.
Finally you close into range. You allow your platoon a few seconds to adjust sights after coming to a stop at what you figured was five hundred meters. After a short discussion of designating targets, you are ready.
“Platoon, fire when ready.”
>roll 3 d100.
>Veteran Tank Ace Crew: Rolls above 60 are rerolled once (this translates to another person’s rolls being used, or if that is not available, then I’ll reroll them
Rolled 83, 66, 35 = 184 (3d100)
>>43877051
Rolled 49, 1, 86 = 136 (3d100)
>>43877051
Your gunner looks down his sights, makes a speedy adjustment on top of the one he had already made and fires a round.
Save for one round arcing far over the enemy group, every shot lands in the rear of an enemy tank. Nearly half of their formation halts as armor piercing shot burrows into their vulnerable rear armor. The second volley has more glances than hits, but a third volley becomes unnecessary as the formation falls into chaos. Several tanks turn about and strike one another, and their morale cascades as both tanks’ crews leap out. Soon enough, whatever tanks are not burning has their crews running into the underbrush.
Second Platoon’s losses made the victory less of a crushing one. Having taken 50% casualties, they could not be used as a platoon strength force any longer. You would absorb them into your platoon, it was decided. Leutnant Hopf perished in the fighting, struck by the penetrating shot during the time it had taken you to arrive.
You made a note to recommend him for a posthumous award. As you finished writing the young man’s name down, your radio operator buzzes you.
“Battalion command is on the net,” your radio operator calls to you. You patch into the company radio.
“Hauptmann Weisenkranz speaking.”
“Hauptmann. I have received reports that the Delschau have launched a large scale counterattack against your company, yes?”
You affirm this.
“Very well. My orders are as follows. All of your forces under attack are to disengage and retreat across the river. Any of your company that are able to maneuver away from the attack, proceed to the fortress at 198, and assist the Paratroopers there in securing the fortress.”
“Herr Oberstleutnant,” you begin to say slowly, “Are you planning to surrender the crossing? It would be a simple matter to destroy this enemy counterattack with the resources of my company. A retreat may be costly if the enemy chooses the take advantage of the movement of the troops.”
“Hauptmann.” The Oberstleutnant says firmly, “The paratroopers are moving more slowly than anticipated, and seizing the Air Force’s objective from under them here would be…prestigious, for us both. Disengage where possible and allow the other companies to deal with this enemy counterattack.
You were never one for politicking, being of common birth. Doing as the battalion commander says would put him in your debt, but you have the privilege of having the Kaiser himself behind you if needed.
>ignore orders and continue to thwart the counterattack, invoking the Kaiser if the matter is pressed
>follow orders and have your forces pull back, and take 2nd platoon and the platoons at the village to lead an assault against the 198 hill fortress
>>43878000
>follow orders and have your forces pull back, and take 2nd platoon and the platoons at the village to lead an assault against the 198 hill fortress
Take care not to play the Kaiser card too often. . .
>>43878000
>>follow orders and have your forces pull back, and take 2nd platoon and the platoons at the village to lead an assault against the 198 hill fortress
War never changes
Apologies for the hiatus, had to go take care of something.
Back on this
>>43878000
Been waiting for this for weeks!
>follow orders and have your forces pull back, and take 2nd platoon and the platoons at the village to lead an assault against the 198 hill fortress
Can we order the surviving crews of 2nd platoon's non-operational tanks to get the abandoned Delschau vehicles mobile? Not worried about firing at this very moment, but if we can get them to the village they could come in handy. Especially the big guns on the D2 tanks.
Alternatively telling them to grab whatever personal weaponry available and jumping on the tanks would keep them mobile, and give us good defence against the roving militias.
Took longer than anticipated due to last minute plan changing. Apologies.
“Yes, Herr Oberstleutnant,” you finally respond, “I will give the orders as you command.”
“Very good, Hauptmann.” He says. There is a pause as if he wants to add something, but he simply stops the transmission before finishing his thoughts.
“1st Platoon,” you relay to your radio operator, “will link up with us at Lukasdorf. 4th Platoon, 6th and 7th, your orders are to retreat back over the river as soon as you can. Defend the crossing points, or destroy them. 2nd and 4th company will surround the Delschau incursion and contain it.”
Your radio operator relays this and confirms each unit’s response. 6th and 7th have thankfully reestablished chains of command. “6th Platoon’s leader objects to this operation, but will carry it out.”
6th Platoon’s commander was Von Einz, a competent commander but ambitious and uncompromising. Without explicit orders to fall back you suspect he would have fought to the last man.
There are some spare crewmen from the remnants of 2nd Platoon, however, capturing the abandoned tanks is impractical. Delschau tank doctrine emphasized protection in favor of mobility, preferring to wear down enemies using sturdy formations and layered defenses. Reich tank doctrine emphasized mobility; these tanks, while serviceable, would slow down your formations significantly. You elect to disable the intact tanks; enough to deny them to the immediate enemy, but not enough to make them useless to the oncoming Grossreich battlefield clearance teams.
You meet back up with the platoons that were not ordered to retreat back at the small village you dubbed Lukasdorf. All of inhabitants appear to have fled, so there is nobody to debate your rechristening of the settlement. Enemy forces on the way there are near nonexistent; it appears that the local resistance threw everything they had at you.
You draw up a few quick plans.
>Plan A- Loop around the fort and support the Paratrooper’s advance
>Plan B- Go around to the weakest part of the fort’s defenses and break in
>Plan C- Take the shortest route in and smash through the fortifications from the flank, taking a direct route to the interior
>Plan D- Do something else (write in)
Key Notes: The hill has shallow soil, and thus is lacking in trees. It is open terrain for the most part, save for some shrubbery patches and constructions and boulders. Remember that you have a set of KT-29s, heavily armored siege tanks with 105mm direct fire howitzers.
Maroon marks are fortification concentrations, concrete and earthwork boxes armed with anti tank cannon and howitzers of varying types.
>>43880340
Couple questions. Do we have access to any smoke resources? Artillery fired smoke shells or long duration smoke projectors on our tanks?
What's the air support situation?
Do we have any anti-mine or mine clearance capability?
What's the scale on this map?
(Ha sorry for being a grognard, just don't like to send good tankers to fiery deaths.)
>>43880650
Being a grognard is totally fine.
>air support situation
Not quite on demand, but available. High Command devoted an absurd amount of airpower to this invasion. A flight of anything that's not a level bomber can come around and pick at something.
>anti mine or mine clearance capability
Nil. The engineers are back at the river. The area is not heavily mined, however, being a border between Strosvald and Delschau, and thus relatively lightly fortified due to friendly relations/political appeasement.
>scale of map
5 kilometers per square.
Feel free to ask anything you want.
>>43881046
Is the gray object in D2-3, and E2-3 the fort proper? If so is it modern? Or more of a medieval deal?
What's the effective range of their anti tank guns? And what's their effectiveness versus the armour of our tanks?
Also, what is the effective range of our KT-29B tanks howitzers?
(last post then I'll put forth my plan hahah)
>>43880340
Totally missed the scale marker. My bad
>>43881240
>Is the gray object in D2-3, and E2-3 the fort proper? If so is it modern? Or more of a medieval deal?
I actually neglected to mention this although I should have.
It's a town. This fort isn't very old or substantial, its issue is being right on the road in. The town was there before it, and it's presumably where the command staff of the fort is hiding
>What's the effective range of their anti tank guns? And what's their effectiveness versus the armour of our tanks?
Delschau uses two models of towed anti tank gun primarily, which are the same as Strosvald due to being Naukland knock offs- 25mm and 37mm guns. The 25mms have an effective range of 300 meters, and are ineffective against the KT-29 and the front armor of the KT-24E tanks. The 37mm guns have an effective range of around 500 meters, similar to the KT-24's gun. KT-29s are immune to fire from the front, and they can penetrate the 24's frontal armor at around 300 meters.
The KT-29B 105mm direct fire howitzers have a range of roughly eight kilometers, but are more effective within five and are accurate to around three.
As much as I like to make up my own things, I'm not an expert on ballistics so most guns will have a historical equivalent unless I specify otherwise.
>>43880340
Alright, my vote is we move similarly to plan B.
The KT-29s will break West early and put fire on B-5 and D-5, beginning at max visual range, and moving inwards stopping only long enough to fire. This should make it difficult for the enemy to zero their artillery on them. HQ 1st and 3rd will move in echelon up the slope refusing their eastward flank, and supporting the paras by attacking the flank of the position at c3-4. We will then roll within sight of Hohe and suppress it while the paratroops get into position to storm it.
This plan will allow for the paras to cover our westward flank, yet allow the Oberstleutnant his glory as it will appear that the paratroops would have been useless without us.
Rolled 5, 72, 58 = 135 (3d100)
>>43882228
I'm going to presume your vote'll be the only one.
“This will be simple,” you say with confidence, “Judging from what we’ve encountered, the Delschau have left this area undermanned, if defended at all. They didn’t count on us slipping through the cracks, or are too sparse in numbers to have any choice but to concentrate their forces. Either way, it’s a boon for us. According to aerial reconnaissance, this giant hill’s defenses are weak to the north. Since we have freedom to move wherever, we’ll just move right to where their defenses are weakest. Whoever’s in that fort can’t resist two attacks on separate weak points. Our big guns will break off early…around here,” you indicate an area of the map, “while we keep north to fend off any possible reinforcement until the last minute. Then we punch straight in. Understood? Good. Let’s take this place.”
>rolls are for encounter
Your platoons set off. A flight of dive bombers flies over your heads, back south; the next will be around in approximately fifteen minutes, if the briefing before the invasion correctly predicted the frequency of air raids. Fighters drifted lazily about high above, ready to pounce upon any foreign aircraft that would dare trespass in their skies.
It is not long before you see shapes moving down the road. Observation with your binoculars reveals a large band of militiamen, dressed similarly before in plain clothing with yellow armbands. They do not seem to have any support, and appear to have been hiding from the bomber raids until now. They are also as lightly equipped as the militiamen you saw before, mostly sporting rifles of varying make.
>ignore them and continue the op as planned
>charge forth and slaughter them
>>43882989
Cut them down, maybe we can interrogate a survivor about the enemy's positions.
Slow moving thread is slow
>>43883081
Seconded
You tell your driver to make a slight adjustment in course, and your radio operator to relay the same to the other wide moving tank platoons.
“This will be a matter of minutes, if not seconds,” you explain, “best to keep them out of our town for as long as possible.”
As you close in, the militiamen duck back down into the tall grass. It is easy to tell roughly where they are by the movement of the golden fronds, but by the time you close in they have scattered. The shifting in the brush stops as you give orders to machine gun anything that moves. The militia’s patience runs out when your platoons begin shooting randomly across the field; they stand without their weapons and look down. Vigorous shooting of the spaces without surrendering peasantry yields more fruit, but it is time consuming; far more so than you had anticipated.
When one of your platoon commanders pops out to accept surrenders a shot rings out and he falls back into his tank, sputtering furiously on the radio that he has been wounded.
You are growing weary of the local population.
>shoot them all and try to find a survivor when you are sure resistance has ended
>let them be and leave
>>43885986
Roll on, we're wasting time.
>>43885986
Fire a HE shot in the biggest concentration and keep moving. Shame to waste ammo but they shot our guy and pulled a war crime by faking surrender.
>>43885986
lob a he shell in their general direction
The wounded platoon commander demands vengeance. You allow it, but when the rest of the platoon requests a shot you deny them. No need to be excessive, you say, drawing on experience.
A single high explosive fragmentation shell is fired into a clutch of standing militia. Their legs buckle and they collapse as the shell bursts upon the ground in the middle of them, dozens of steel shards shredding their insides. Four for one is decided to be adequate exchange. You make a note to suggest that incendiary bombs be used before moving further. The harvest was likely safe in silos by now. Blood on grass was hardly different from blood on ash, when victory was concerned.
Your platoons return to the course originally plotted. The 105mm cannons of the KT-29Bs make their presence known, and the pitiful return fire of the guns in the defenses retort with futile barrages. The KT-29 was the lord of any battlefield it strode upon, and the third rate gunnery of a band of farmers who called themselves soldiers was hardly a worthy adversary.
You observe your heavy tanks’ handiwork as your tanks go around. As you observe a gun crew leap to the ground when a shell slams into the front of the earthworks, you notice a set of moving shapes.
You recognize the casemates of Delschau self-propelled antitank guns, the larger variant with a 75mm gun, apparently dispatched in hopes of being able to take on the besieging heavy armor. They are apparently more common than previously believed, either that or your luck today is of a unique sort.
You are unsure of how powerful their cannon is against the KT-29’s armor. The B variant’s armor is even stronger than its original design, it hull armor a solid wall instead of an uneven surface weakened by the presence of a hull cannon.
>err on the side of caution and have your tanks withdraw out of effective range, to try and lure them forward
>allow them to try to scratch the paint on your heavies, as you charge uphill and flank them
>>43886267
Have the KT-29s pull back, 3rd platoon will be in position to flank the Deschau momentarily, and the 105mm howitzers on our tanks will hold the enemy's attention, and if we're lucky the HE may even disable or destroy one or two.
>>43886267
>>err on the side of caution and have your tanks withdraw out of effective range, to try and lure them forward
>>43886487 scratch that
>>43886267
have our tanks do a pincer maneuver and flank them, they would have to rotate the whole tank to get a bearing on us because of their extremely limited traverse
>>43886521
Gotta be careful, there is a position directly to the south that would have excellent firing lanes into the side of our tanks.
My vote is for the KT-29s to pull back slowly and in control. Let the Delschau 75mm fire ping off our hulls at extreme range, while we smash them with return 105mm fire and then catch them from the north with 3rd platoon.
The heavy tanks are a valuable asset, and might even prove to be a vital one if there are any fortifications the spotter planes failed to notice. You relay a command to the heavy tank platoon to pull back. Their guns were not accurate enough to engage in a long range tank duel; best to try and use them to bring the SPGs closer. The 105mm high explosive shell was a powerful round, but you had been informed that these vehicles’ armor was stronger than most, so you would rather not gamble upon whose gun and armor would prove to be stronger.
You give the two groups a wide berth. If you were unsure of the 105mm’s performance on these vehicles, you were certainly sure of your tanks’ 37mm guns’ performance against them. Spatz could shoot a squirrel out of a tree from two kilometers away with your tank’s main gun (something he had actually done as a radical interpretation of what was meant as a sarcastic comment) but there were few men with that sort of gunnery talent in the Reich.
If the Self Propelled Guns noticed your formation earlier, they are taking no action to prevent your climb. You ask the heavy tank platoon commander what the trouble is, and he replies that the vehicles appear content to try and fight it out at long range. He also informs you that they only have one third ammunition capacity remaining.
>have the heavy tanks continue to distract the self-propelled guns as you flank around
>have the heavies continue to fight from long range but use the distraction to avoid engaging the vehicles entirely
>have the heavies withdraw to conserve ammunition and either avoid the self-propelled gun platoon or fight them yourself
>any above option but have the heavies cease fire. This may be seen as suspicious.
>>43886639
>have the heavies withdraw to conserve ammunition and either avoid the self-propelled gun platoon or fight them yourself
Order each heavy to fire a parting shot and slowly back off, meanwhile there are a numch of big, slow moving targets that have revealed themselves. A tempting target for a pilot with a spare bomb, rocket or belt of cannon rounds no?
>>43886679
Somehow spelled bunch as numch. Amazing.
Going to wrap this up here actually. Thank you all for writing in but I've got to sleep. Next thread should be next week; I'd like to do them more often but next week is actually pretty busy.
>>43886938
Ok :(
Is there anything we could do that would help make this thread happen more? i.e. update pastebin, create maps, contribute in some way?
>>43886953
It's not really the case of creating content and more one of setting aside a whole afternoon and evening to do a thread. So no, not really, sorry. I should be more free in December though.
>>43886679
I second this, see if any air support can take care of our SPG problem.
>>43887090
Pic broken for some reason.
