Why is modern 40k art so soulless?
>>43636478
Because it's done digitally instead of by hand.
And it's not soulless you're just a hipster and mistake nostalgia and primitive, outdated technical skills as characterful.
>>43636478
It's done lazily with a veneer of sugar-coated colours. Such is the way of everything that cynically appeals 2dakidz.
It comes off even worse than the norm because of what it used to be.
>>43636489
Not him but that picture doesn't have near the grimdark the old pencil and ink sketches did. Take this for example. Looks way more 40k than the op.
40k is an oppressive and bleak future. The art should reflect that. Hell, even deff skwawdron, which was a pretty funny comic book, even managed to tap that gritty, bleak future vibe. My favorite example though has to be the cities of death book from 3rd edition. So much great art for IG, orks, and chaos in it.
>>43636558
what the hell is the Big E's right foot doing?
How did we go from this..
>>43636632
..to this?
>>43636636
One of the things I hate about the modern art is that they only want the artists to feature actual existing models from the GW model ranges, instead of general figures that one might see in the 41st millennium; even going so far as to photoshop old images in the new Dark Angels codex to feature the new ork meganob models instead of just generic meganobs.
It really just feels like it's stifling people's creativity, and discouraging kitbashing/conversions.
>>43636680
This was golden age art, I miss the old codex layouts...
>>43636478
I actually really like the art from the SOB digital codex.
You know, the one actually new piece of art.
It's of a city that takes up an entire island with a huge statue of St Celestine watching over it.
It's really beautiful and honestly a little weird for 40k to look peaceful and pleasant.
Forgeworld still knows what's good
>>43636750
Fucken' word. I'll post some more artwork in a few hours once I'm at my pc.
reminder
>>43636478
Because you have wrong images.
>>43637033
>>43637058
>>43637063
>>43637071
>>43637081
>>43637086
>>43637101
Boring, lazy, generic.
>>43636592
you just ruined that piece for me
>>43636478
Because large parts of the new art is made by outsourced artists who do not understand what makes 40k art 40k and it honestly seems they don't really care that much about it, rather they paint shit like they always do and then slap skulls on it and think that's enough.
>>43637058
This guys art for example, I think he's a great artist. It works very well for 'generic' sci-fi. But his 40k stuff? Atrocious. Its the prime example of what's wrong with so much of the new art pieces. It's boring, soulless and utterly lacks any 40k feeling.
That said, not all of the new art is bad, it's just that nearly all of it is.
>>43637086
>>43637101
These are 6/10s. They aren't bad but they don't excite the imagination.
>>43636478
I'm not sure if this is official, but whatever
>>43637081
>First the giant pauldrons, then the rest of the armour.
That explains so many things...
>>43637110
It's your opinion man.
>>43637134
It's looks like DOW2 concept art.
>>43637127
>>43637126
>>43637144
I prefer everything to blanches art, but he's got a point. Those are really nice but not for 40k.
>>43637169
The librarian and the bulging eyed bastard in the bottom right have always ruined this for me
>>43637168
Is this supposed to be good?
>>43637176
>>43637169
It looked so much better without those atrocious red and blue filters.
>>43636478
It's too polished and lacks the grit you get with illustrating something by hand. Since I myself like to draw I can also tell when a digital artist is being lazy and sloppy, which is often in a lot in modern GW art.
>>43636632
Blanche uses a lot of contrast while the other artist just kinda have the colours being more even or washed out.
>>43636790
We get it, Night Lords are more edgy than Ultramarines
>>43636908
Isn't that the cover to the 3'rd edition codex?
>>43637183
>>43636478
Marketing and rebranding. All of the old art (while being awesome) was done by different artists with different styles. This new art appears to have one style that is universal.
Make sure you show newbies the old style lest the new generation forgets.
>>43637183
You don't like wyches butts?
>>43636478
A lot of the old are was just as shit, we just remember the good or extremely bad
>>43637227
Yup, it is.
As for the OP; it's a shame, but yes. Modern 40k art isn't bad, and there are some really nice pieces there, but they just lack the warped, nightmarish, surreal quality of the older artwork. It's just pictures of people fighting. If the Sisters Codex was re-released tomorrow, you wouldn't see anything like the sort of grizzly weirdness in the Witch Hunters book.
>>43636489
4k resolution and 60fps doesn't make a good game.
>>43636680
Don't forget when they remade the old art of Farsight and his suit to reflect his new suit and sword.
>>43637183
By the standards of their target audience - exclusively small children and actual basement dwellers - yes. Moderate adults are not considered.
>>43636478
Probably because of marketing reasons. We get less illustrations of things that doesn't have minis instead of images that inspires people to build that character/thing themselves. So GW is fucking up when they don't do more images that captures the imagination.
The best kind of soulless art.
>>43637288
Isn't that the one from the original Necron codex with a quick photoshop filter on top of it?
>>43637256
Centurion armour will never cease to astound me in it's stupidity. Why exactly does a second suit of armour need to be worn over the top? If it's possible to make power armour as large they like - see Dreadknights - then why do they bother with Dreadnoughts at all?
Dreadnoughts make sense from a fluff perspective if you assume that the surgery needed to make them work would disable someone's limbs. Ergo Dreadnoughts are only used on those who are already crippled by battle. With Centurions, this limits is destroyed, so why not just give everyone Dreadnought-sized armour?
There's suspension of disbelief, and there's this.
The change in tone in the art is because 40K is no longer grimdark. The Imperium is doing fine, the Eldar are not doomed, and so on and so forth.
>>43637293
Might have appeared that way in a White Dwarf long ago too, but yea the original is black and white but don't have that version.
>>43636592
he is stepping down over multiple steps. It looks accurate to me.
>>43637299
This kills the 40k.
>>43637296
I suppose they want to compete with Warmachine jacks thingies?
>>43636478
I like both, fight me
>>43637299
also this
>>43637296
>Why eldar build wraithlords if they can use war walkers?
>>43636719
isn't that originally from an FFS supplement though?
>>43637299
Space marines should always appear dirty or worn down, having artwork show them shiny and clean ruins it. It works for Races like the Eldar and possibly Tau but even during a battle they should appear worn or dirty.
Battlefields aren't clean yo
>>43637342
Wraithlords are like machine golems with Eldar souls in them. That way they don't lose fighting strength even if their soldiers die.
>>43637351
You are confusing marines with guardsmen scum.
>>43637351
There's a sort of sick irony to the quote at the bottom now.
>>43637367
So dreadnoughts are machine golems powered by dead marine brains.
It might be just me, but I like the fuzzy, sketchy art because I think it gives the world a dreamlike, less realistic feel. It's less "it's happening!" and more of a vision of a dark future, a bad dream.
When you go to the super detailed, super realistic direction, the faults just become more obvious. Like if you made a live-action superhero movie with the characters dressed up like they are in the comics. What works in a comic and is believable in the comic, does not hold up when you try to make it more realistic. The disbelief is shattered. A fuzzy painting of thousands upon thousands of dudes storming through a field of skulls with tanks belching black smoke and sky roiling in blood and fire sets a tone better than one that looks like a photo of it actually happening. Because that's just retarded.
Like, look at >>43637110. The fuck is going on there? The ground is on fire, there's dudes standing on different elevations and shooting everywhere. But because it's not a detailed photograph, it's not suppose to be taken literally. It's just setting the mood, the tone, not a detailed snapshot of what went down.
>>43637126
> it honestly seems they don't really care that much about it
Probably cause these artists see it as another job to do.
They put as much effort as the money's worth then move on to the next job/project.
And there's probably a new art director or whoever's in charge wanted new art direction
>>43637378
Sure. Eldars just stick them in other units them Wraithlords like e Wraithguard, but yeah, they are supposed to be analogies for eachother.
>>43637380
It also lacks composition, value, perspective and all sorts of things.
>>43637264
But in the same way, lack of 4k resolution don't make a bad game *cough*Dwarf Fortress*cough*
Modern art might be more soulless, but the weapons are only stupid, not completely retarded like the old art. And that's a seller for me
Black Library art is really the worst for some reason. It often looks like smeared shit.
>>43637478
I'm pretty sure this one is 4'th edition. That period was really a sweet spot in art direction.
>>43637261
And from the new stuff we will remember nothing since its all bland and boring.
Black and white is much easier to work with than a full colour image.
>>43637296
>Why exactly does a second suit of armour need to be worn over the top?
Same reason tank crews wear power armour, why bikers wear power armour and don't just have enclosed cockpits, why jump packs aren't just flying armour, etc. The Centurion is a piece of hardware you get in, use, and get out, like a vehicle. It's not a suit of armour, it's like a bike or a jump pack.
>why do they bother with Dreadnoughts at all
Dreadnoughts are more than just walkers. They're also keepers of the chapter's legacy. Not just anyone gets into a dread. Venerated members who are important to the chapter get dreadnoughted, and their wisdom is heard when deciding matters of importance to the chapter. Dreads can sleep for decades, even centuries, during which time you have to use something else.
>why not just give everyone Dreadnought-sized armour
Why not replace every rhino with a land raider and give every marine a missile launcher?
>>43637505
Age of Sigmar?
>>43637405
So do dreams.
>>43637535
There was a thread a while ago discussing agri-worlds and manure, the how's, why's and the logistical problems of it.
Found that picture in that thread, thought it was fun.
>>43636478
Because cheaper investments in time and artists, lesser degrees of freedom to the artist, from the restriction to depict the products instead of the concepts behind them to the themes limited to illustrations and not evocations, and because their new target will eat it anyway so they chose quantity over quality (there're people right now saying that the latest books have the best artwork ever from GW, uneducated and tasteless people)
And considering the number of works made with awful amounts of badly shops and copy pasted pics from other artworks or even photos of minis, you can quite get what type of quality we're talking about now
You should even consider yourself lucky, the age of sigmar got it even worseI still tear up a bit at the thought of no more Adrian smith or Karl kopinski among the older guard
>>43636478
It's digital, in full color, and not done in that black and white, 1980's "I made this in my highschool sketchbook" style.
I mean, when people post stuff from RT, it's just a mess of detail and line, with weird perspective issues. It's cool, but it's obviously made by someone who listens to a lot of metal.
I'm reminded of the argument between old movie posters and modern digital photoshop stuff.
>>43637071
I see that image a lot, and I think it fails to really depict the size of the Imperial Palace. The damned thing is supposed to take up a good portion of the Himalayas.
>>43637058
This is a good example of what's wrong with digital artists. They are all lazy, and just trace over real pictures, rather than use them as inspiration.,
>>43637694
>The damned thing is supposed to take up a good portion of the Himalayas.
That's where the Astronomican is, not the Imperial Palace. The Emperor's suppose to be sitting on top of Nottingham.
>>43637694
It was based on Blanche's art.
>>43637707
It uses photo textures yes, but i think it still looks good.
>>43637071
I really love this piece. It's so somber and dark imo. And yes I already know my tastes are generally shit.
>>43636478
It's a combination of:
You're getting older anon, things change as you get older.
AND
Gotta rush out the new cover art in a few weeks because I have to start the next cover as soon as possible.
>>43637071
That green hue is terrible imo. Looks like the Lich King's castle.
>>43637724
No, it isn't.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Palace
>>43637814
Emperor is basically lich king.
>>43637814
Yeah, I would tone down the green. Otherwise the image is fine.
>>43637296
>centurion armor was found in STC
>template from Dark Age of Technology
>how to build second armor intergrated with power armor for genetically engineered soldiers none of which existed back in the day
GW lore is fucking retarded
>>43637845
Eh, artist sort of screwed up. The Emperor only has one eye. The other one is bionic.
![MorgulHost[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/AiPLrWt.jpg "MorgulHost[1].jpg")
>>43637071
>>43637837
>quoting 40k wiki
Well, I can do that as well.
>The Forbidden Fortress - Built throughout the mountain range of the Himalayas. A single peak is carved to form the Chamber of the Astronomican
>Imperial Palace - One of the largest structures on Terra, the Imperial Palace is more like a sprawling hive city than a single edifice. It covers the better part of the Northern Hemisphere
>>43637949
>>43637949
>The Imperial Palace is the seat of the Adeptus Terra and the center of imperial power and administrative authority on Terra. It spreads across the whole of what used to be the Himalayan Mountains of Old Earth
>>43637861
Anon, the Land Speeder is based on the STC of grav-plates. Land Raiders are based on a faded image of a battle tank schematics. Just because there's an STC doesn't mean it's complete and final product and doesn't include some fitting and figuring out. Why do you think it took so long to put the thing into mass production, even though it was found during the Age of Apostasy?
>>43637949
>>43637971
And just to further prove you wrong
>The actual Hall of the Golden Throne is located deep under what was once Mt. Everest many millenia ago
So, in summation. Learn how to admit when you are wrong, and then fucking kill yourself.
>>43637296
I meant to type up more to this but I had to switch computers. Most of what I had to add can be made in response to other posts.
>>43637342
You're comparing apples and rocks. Wraithlords use a completely different power source to a War Walker, which allows it to be far larger and more articulate. You can't just kill people for their soul stones however so live pilots hop in War Walkers in the meanwhile. Just like with Dreadnoughts, only now we can scale Power Armour up to sizes larger than a dreadnought without the drawbacks.
>>43637378
A necessity invalidated by Centurion armour.
>>43637528
>Same reason tank crews wear power armour, why bikers wear power armour and don't just have enclosed cockpits, why jump packs aren't just flying armour, etc.
. . . because you can't just hook those things up to a nervous system? If marines could, they WOULD, for the same reason that they hook themselves up to their power armour given their ability to do so - it affords an enormous advantage in dexterity and reactions. Thus far they have not been to do so, and haven't been able to wear larger suits of armour that Terminator without disabling surgery. Centurions are the odd one out.
>They're also keepers of the chapter's legacy.
As a side effect of the fact that only veterans tend to get in them. If anyone could get in and out of a dreadnought without negative repercussions, they would. Except now they can, yet choose otherwise for no reason.
>Why not replace every rhino with a land raider and give every marine a missile launcher?
Because you can't afford loads of Land Raiders and Missile Launchers. Production limits aren't the issue with Dreadnoughts. There's also the fact that LRs and MLs don't invalidate the exercise of creating 7' super soldiers, while widespread access to enormous armour suits kinda does.
>>43637868
No, it's not
There's no consistent depiction of the emperor and the one you're referring to was a shopped version of the original too.
The emperor is a corpse on/in a throne, how devastated he is or what shape the throne has never got definitive agreement, nor there should be.
>>43636489
I do admit that digital art CAN lose a certain aspect. But the important part is the fact that those arts end up very clean, not the way we're used to.
This drawfriend has a style that is more the ancient art, because his art is not crisp clean.
>>43637861
Exactly. They'd have had to have engineered it to work with the Black Carapace, a feat utterly in defiance with every other piece of crucial fluff about the designs and limitations of Marine biology and technology. If they could do that with a compltely unrelated suit, they could do that with anything.
>>43637974
You're talking about normal vehicles with wide-spread, unrestricted technology. Bananas and Rabbits.
>>43637971
>Imperial Palace
>It covers the better part of the Northern Hemisphere
So, unless you're gonna argue the Himalayas take up the better part of Earth's Northern Hemisphere, it's pretty obvious, once again, that 40k wiki is shit.
The image, straight from 40k rulebook shows the palace and astronomican located in different places. I'll take that over 40k wiki any day.
>>43638021
IIrc centurion armour is manually operated and not interfaced with the carapace
How could it even when the black carapace would be sealed under the power armour?
Centurions are still retarded, the original concepts were devastators and techmarines with all kind of servo harness and additional gear to carry multiple guns, not this abortion
>>43638021
>land speeder
>land raider
>wide-spread, unrestricted technology
Wut?
>>43637206
Nothing says laziness when an artist copy paste a pice of art from somewhere else, tweak it a bit, and add it in the background.
>>43637974
Yeah, a lot of STC's are incomplete and you would be increadibly lucky to find one that wasn't corrupted.
>>43638012
In the prominent artwork he only has one eye left since he lost it when fighting Horus.
>>43638076
Yeah, a lot of modern genre artists doesn't seem to bother with landscape painting at all and to me that is a failing of depicting the setting.
>>43638012
Not that anon, but yes it is.
Even if we have no confirmation on the bionic eyes, we know that he got one eye plucked out among all his injuries.
>>43638000
I admit that I was wrong to bother arguing with a retard.
>>43638054
>The Imperial Palace is a vast edifice sprawling across a large part of the Asian[8] continent on Terra
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Palace
>>43638128
I can't find it but I think it was a recent Chaos SM v Tau art that had pic related in the background, just slightly chaos-ified.
>>43636478
Such nostalgia. So soul. Wow.
>>43638149
indeed
>a lightning claw cuts Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone
>his claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular
>another blow severs the tendons of his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers
>Horus breaks several ribs with an almost playful punch
>a surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting flesh till it runs, bursts an eyeball, sets the hair alight
>Horus grasps his wrist, splintering bones
>blood pumps from the Emperor's throat
>Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine
>Horus rips his arm from its socket
>>43638180
How emps win?
>>43636478
Hey I love the old art and it will always have a place in my heart- Paul Dainton and Karl Kopinski are fantastic- their work in the 3rd edition Necron codex are what roped me into 40k.
But seriously though I think GW's new art direction is great. The miniatures and writing have always been colorful and over the top- I think the art is more in tune with that than ever before. I love grime, grit and gestural work too but character from imperfection is hardly the basis for art being good.
If 40k art somehow went the way of flat colored, noodle-armed Tumblr tier illustration then we can talk soulless but until that point I'm of the opinion the direction is more lively than ever.
>>43638219
He destroyes Horus soul in a moment when Horus is free from the daemon possessing him.
>>43638180
I'm always sorry for Empy when I read this. Especially after reading pic related.
>>43638219
He's pretty much dead on the ground, and uses a mind bullet on Horus. Then he destroys his soul to make sure Chaos won't make him come back.
>>43638264
I think people just like to shit on the Emperor being a bad father because he spawned super beings and didn't love them like a family.
>>43638159
>The Forbidden Fortress is the base of the Adeptus Astronomica, incorporating the Chamber of the Astronomican and the Astronomican itself. It is a remote and secret complex on Terra, built within the Himalayan mountain range. To outside appearances the mountains remain unchanged by the hand of man
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forbidden_Fortress
How do you have the Palace cover the mountain range, if they're untouched by man to hide the Astronomican?
After having battled with computer issues for three hours, I'm back and can supply some artwork as promised >>43636750 >>43636790.
Personal Favorite of mine.
I think a problem with the old art is that a lot of the time they're just standing around in different levels with no rhyme or reason. Newer art tries different composition, but a lot of it feels rushed. Overall I think it's subjective, the good will be the good, the bad will be the bad, regardless of age.
>>43638065
>IIrc centurion armour is manually operated and not interfaced with the carapace
That's even worse! Why bother with Space Marines at all? Take Stormtroopers and put them in Centurion armour. Literally just as effective at a fraction of the cost and limitations of Space Marines. You can also ditch all those costly, inefficient and risk-fraught Ogryn regiments since they're entirely redundant with the armour's purpose. And also Sentinels while we're at it seeing as Centurion armour tech can easily outclass it for dexterity.
Do you see where I'm going with this? Centurion armour is a fine example of canon rape. It's a Scrappy fucking Doo and a half.hell, why can Imperials do this but Eldar can't? why do the star children bother tortuously reanimating their dead when it's this simple to enhance the strength and bulk of a live pilot?
>>43638068
Land Raiders are large tanks with a stronger machine spirit than the usual - not unique. Land Speeders are an anti-grav plate with an armoured canopy - remarkably unique, but plausibly not tactical for other factions; admittedly a hole, once-filled as guardsmen had their own land speeders back in the day. No massive invasive surgery as part-and-parcel of a complete organic reconstruction process.
>>43638340
>>43638391
So what's so unique of the totes not Aliens powerloader with guns?
>>43638408
>>43638415
Not only is that literally the first thing I described, I have done so repeatedly tus far. Asking the other person to just endlessly repeat themselves is not an argument, it's a bluff.
>>43638416
I think that's actually about it really. Forgeworld are really good at character pieces.
>>43638416
Really wish GW would start posing their Marines like this.
>>43636478
It is not made for us anymore, it is made for young kids who like big, cool and awesome and strong. Not dark, gritty and moody.
>>43638460
From what I understand, it's mostly technical limitations. I can't explain it very well, another Anon moght do it much better than me, but it has something to do with sprue space, Z axys, and so on. For example, the running legs of assault marines are a two part kit.
>>43638006
>because you can't just hook those things up to a nervous system?
There have been fluff indicating that Marines do interface with their vehicles. Also, how is being able to drive the vehicle with your mind gonna make your armour obsolete?
>it affords an enormous advantage in dexterity and reactions
Being able to control your Rhino with your mind doesn't make it anymore capable than what it is. And you've just wasted all the work that went into making a Marine to what could be achieved with a brain in a jar.
>Centurions are the odd one out.
Because you keep looking at them as suits of armour, instead of as vehicles like bikes and land speeders.
>As a side effect of the fact that only veterans tend to get in them.
Why do you think only vets get chosen for the honor?
>If anyone could get in and out of a dreadnought without negative repercussions, they would. Except now they can, yet choose otherwise for no reason.
So because a Marine has the ability to not be stick in the Centurion for all eternity like in a Dread, they're shit, while Dreads are shit because you have to stay in them forever? Wut?
If you don't see the advantages of not being a massive walker all the time, I don't know what to tell you, man.
>Because you can't afford loads of Land Raiders and Missile Launchers.
But they do afford loads of Centurions? Citation fucking needed.
>Production limits aren't the issue with Dreadnoughts.
Yes they fucking are, retard. Dreads are rare and nigh impossible to make.
>widespread access to enormous armour suits kinda does
Because being in a big suit makes you able to survive injuries that would kill normal people, enable you to stay awake for days, etc. etc., right?
>>43637478
>Let me tell you about the Ultramarines.
>>43638460
Agreed.
The thing about the normal space marine model is that it has quite long legs, which is a good thing because tall people in general have long legs and it makes them look noble. Forgeworld's artwork reflects this well, but Games Workshop central doesn't seem to fucking get it. This comparison pic >>43636790
is a mild example of it, but almost models of characters stood with their legs not in a squatting pose suffer horrible from midget-legs. The fucking sculptor idiots keep the models the same height as other marines but simply chop the legs shorter to compensate for the narrower leg angle. I noticed this in my late teens and I haven't been able to take most recent character models seriously. They just look fucktarded.
>>43638501
>Cost
Forgeworld does do it right still.
>>43638430
Anon, I have yet to see you repeat a single thing in this strong of posts, so if you've made other posts outside of this conversation, do keep in mind this is an anonymous image board, I have no way of telling what posts are yours and which are not.
All I'm seeing is someone getting their panties in a twist because they don't know what's the point of the Centurion and make wild speculations about things while refusing to acknowledge anything that's not in line with their views.
>>43637058
>Call of Duty: 40k Warfare
>>43638361
For some reason the sculpted crewcut cracks me up.
>>43638502
>There have been fluff indicating that Marines do interface with their vehicles.
Interface is one thing, control like an extension of your own body is another.
>how is being able to drive the vehicle with your mind gonna make your armour obsolete?
To be fair it isn't entirely, purely because an armoured human can fit into spaces a vehicle can't. This isn't really an issue without suits of Centurion armour however. If anything, human pilots would be better suited to pilot the suits as they're even smaller when out of the armour at no drawbacks.
>Being able to control your Rhino with your mind doesn't make it anymore capable than what it is
Right. Moving an object with an impulse is no easier or quicker than manually operating levers. Of course. It's not like there's real life research into implementing this methods for the sake of efficiency or anything. ¬_¬
>And you've just wasted all the work that went into making a Marine to what could be achieved with a brain in a jar.
. . . So you agree with me? Except for the brain in the jar bit, that's more effort than just putting a person in the thing. (Thallaxi are an exception) You seem to drawn to inefficient design approaches.
>Why do you think only vets get chosen for the honor?
They don't. Most marines who live long, fight hard and still have fire in their heart after have all their limbs blown off and their spine broken happen to be veteran fighters. There's no monopoly on age for dreadnought candidacy, just "are you physically-ruined but still determined to fight?". Dreadnoughts become ancient thanks to their internment in an armoured life support machine; you've basically got the "only" part the wrong way around.
1/2
>>43638562
>Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 40000
Soon...
>>43638562
Akshually, he took the pose of the guardian and Dire Avenger from a pic of two fighters in the middle East.
>>43638502
2/2
>So because a Marine has the ability to not be stick in the Centurion for all eternity like in a Dread, they're shit, while Dreads are shit because you have to stay in them forever?
>If you don't see the advantages of not being a massive walker all the time, I don't know what to tell you, man.
My entire argument has been that Dreadnoughts are made utterly, woefully redundant by the inclusion of Centurion armour. Centurions are a poor addition to the canon of 40K because they invalidate one or more beloved and flavourful elements; Dreadnoughts foremost, and all Space Marines, Ogryns, Sentinels, War Walkers, Wraithlords, Penitent Engines and so on if you carry it far enough. You're not even trying to follow the argument if you think I've been questioning the point of giant armour suits.
>But they do afford loads of Centurions?
With the money saved on normal suits of Power and Terminator Armour, Dreadnoughts and possibly everything on the short list in the above point, hell fucking yes.
>Dreads are rare and nigh impossible to make.
Yet Centurions - the same technology but better - are considerably cheaper, while Dreadknights are not much more expensive. I pray for your soul if you think I'm retarded while not following this.
>Because being in a big suit makes you able to survive injuries that would kill normal people
. . . Switch your brain on.
>enable you to stay awake for days
>"armour suits can't contain life-support systems and drug dispensers!"
. . . Seriously. Just think before you type.
>>43636478
Too much focus on the Necrons.
>>43638640
Speaking about the Necrons, no one suffered aesthetically more than them.
Look at this thing. Just look, C'tan damn you. What is this thing? Why does it look so stupid?
>>43638699
Are you trying to post a pic of the Tesseract Vault "action figure"?
>>43638681
forgot my picture.
>>43638710
No, just the tomb blade and this thing.
![southparkorig[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/C1og7pW.jpg "southparkorig[1].jpg")
>>43638712
On par with the SM dickbikes
>>43637505
DESIGNATED
SHITTING
PLANETS
>>43636489
>>43636478
You can make things look plenty gritty and "traditional" even when working digitally.
It's just that a lot of digital artists go nuts with omg blur and lighting effects and copy pasting or oversmoothing things and it ends up looking really sterile.
>>43637455
It's pretty standard in publishing. The people who pay for book cover illustrations are always cheap as fuck and have awful taste.
Back in the day you had people like Frazetta on book covers, these days it's stock images+crazy font+color filter or reused art from games or whatever.
>>43638681
It turns out that GW's customers likes stupid looking things. Who would have thought?
>>43638543
>I have yet to see you repeat a single thing in this strong of posts
Then you haven't attempted to read them.
In all four of the following posts:
>>43637296 (my first on this topic)
>>43638006
>>43638021
>>43638391 (the very post to which you responded, ironically given the answer to your question's location within)
I mention, sometimes centrally to the entire post, that Centurion armour uniquely allows for personal powered armour - both strength, firing platform and protection - without the use of invasive disabiling surgery like a Dreadnought. In one of those posts I even highlight that Centurion armour uniquely lacks the requirements of basic power armour based on information provided by another. If you couldn't derive this point from the posts made then it's probable you won't from this one either.
>if you've made other posts outside of this conversation
>do keep in mind this is an anonymous image board, I have no way of telling what posts are yours and which are not
This is ass-covering PR-speak for
>I wandering halfway into a discussion and made a rudimentary question answered earlier and repeatedly, and now don't want to admit to wronghood.
Next time you're called out for laziness just fucking admit it and move on. Pretense is silly and futile.
>All I'm seeing is someone getting their panties in a twist
Attention everyone, anon has spoken. Assessing the canon of fictional works and hobbies and bringing up concerns is now effiminate and childish. You may now return to your sanctioned fantasy roleplaying and board games.
>they don't know what's the point of the Centurion
Prove that I don't know this. Go on, try.
>make wild speculations about things
Like?
>refusing to acknowledge anything that's not in line with their views.
Like? I mean you've completely abandoned actual reason and relevance for strawman accusations, but I'd like to see how far you're willing to go in any case.
>>43638736
I have noticed that novels in general tends to have increadibly bland covers these days. That also seems to go for video games and movies too.
Is this because they try to distance themselves from pulp aesthetics?
>>43637455
Absolutely this, it's fucking terrible. I'd be embarassed to own most of them.
>>43637071
see that, Frodo? The Orcs are coming from Minas Morgul.
>>43638391
>Take Stormtroopers and put them in Centurion armour. Literally just as effective at a fraction of the cost and limitations of Space Marines
Such a weapon is unworthy in the hands of an inferior class of soldier.
>>43638783
kek
>>43638635
>>43638584
Terminators and Dreadnaughts are better than Centurions. But Centurions are cheaper, more widespread and a Marine doesn't need to be in the 1st company or crippled to use it.
>>43638771
It's because they're designed in board rooms by marketers instead of by artists. Visually interesting doesn't matter, it's all about what the covers of the best-selling novels and games are like. Gotta get that rugged man with his back to the viewer and the cyan/orange colour scheme, or it won't sell!
>>43638771
That and not causing an offence or potentially alienating any possible audience. It's the lukewarm milky tea principle. Or the reason why this happens to video game characters.
>>43638584
>Interface is one thing, control like an extension of your own body is another.
Cents are not controlled via black carapace.
>To be fair it isn't entirely, purely because an armoured human can fit into spaces a vehicle can't. This isn't really an issue without suits of Centurion armour however. If anything, human pilots would be better suited to pilot the suits as they're even smaller when out of the armour at no drawbacks.
Marines have superior mental prowess to humans, and physical prowess still matters, even in those situations.
>They don't. Most marines who live long, fight hard and still have fire in their heart after have all their limbs blown off and their spine broken happen to be veteran fighters. There's no monopoly on age for dreadnought candidacy, just "are you physically-ruined but still determined to fight?". Dreadnoughts become ancient thanks to their internment in an armoured life support machine; you've basically got the "only" part the wrong way around.
Marines are only placed in a Dreadnought if they are considered to valuable to die and there's room.
>My entire argument has been that Dreadnoughts are made utterly, woefully redundant by the inclusion of Centurion armour.
They're not though. Dreads fulfill the role of revered ancients. Cents are just walking weapon platforms.
>With the money saved on normal suits of Power and Terminator Armour, Dreadnoughts and possibly everything on the short list in the above point, hell fucking yes.
You know absolutely nothing of the costs of manufacturing any of that so don't talk shit.
>Yet Centurions - the same technology but better
They're not the same technology though. Centurions would be more equivalent to a Sentinel than a Dread.
>>43637134
it DOW II cutscene
>>43638822
Wouldn't it be more ideal to stand out above everyone else?
>>43638824
Sad but true.
>>43638795
They have the same BS and Ld. And They Shall Know No Fear, WS (in this case simply a matter of training) and I are small fries in the grand scheme of things.
>>43638806
>Terminators and Dreadnaughts are better than Centurions.
Questionable.
But Centurions are cheaper, more widespread and a Marine doesn't need to be in the 1st company or crippled to use it.
Completely true. Better than that, if >>43638065 is correct that you don't even need to be a space marine to wear it. Instant protection and strength enhancement superior to that of normal power armour. There's no reason that Centurion armour can't be scaled larger or perhaps even smaller either - see the Dreadknight. So the Terminator and Dreadnought question becomes redundant.
>>43637153
Autoguns?
>>43638850
>They have the same BS and Ld. And They Shall Know No Fear, WS (in this case simply a matter of training) and I are small fries in the grand scheme of things.
That's not the point, anon.
The point is power armour not requiring black carapace exists. If Centurion tier massive heavy armour was fielded en-masse to human troops, the guard wouldn't be the first ones to get a crack at it.
>>43638519
Cant make out the chapter symbol of the marine about to get his arse handed to him.
>>43638830
>Cents are not controlled via black carapace.
Then the even stronger case of fluff rape made in >>43638391 stands. Centurions have leapt from a poor inclusion to a carbuncle of plot holes.
>Marines have superior mental prowess to humans, and physical prowess still matters, even in those situations.
Marginally so compared to the enormous costs of creating a Space Marine, versus the much larger gains of piloting a suit of powered armour. The latter is both cheaper AND more important.
>Marines are only placed in a Dreadnought if they are considered to valuable to die and there's room.
Fair enough. That Centurions are cheaper than Dreadnoughts just undermines this pillar of fluff further.
>Dreads fulfill the role of revered ancients.
No, they are revered ancients because only a few can be selected for occupation. If Dreadnoughts were suddenly much more available - ie in Centurion form - they wouldn't forbid everyone from getting in one anyway. Dreadnoughts don't have a magic "Revere me!" device built into them, and if they did they could take it out and - you guessed it - pop it in a Centurion.
>You know absolutely nothing of the costs of manufacturing any of that
Of course. Nobody has any idea as to the cost of Terminator armour - it could cost as much as a lasgun to make. Or how about Dreadnoughts? Those might be about as much as a boltgun. They're certainly not necessarily rare and incredibly priceless, that's for sure. And what of the cost of creating a Space Marine? No-one has ANY INKLING of the time, resources and requirements made to raise generations of pubescent boys on lethal death worlds, winnowing out the weakest until a tiny crop undergo invasive organ surgery and elite training regimes for 8 years. Nope, no guessing or scaling for any of these things.
>so don't talk shit.
Says the individual insisting that Centurion armour costs more than a Dreadnought, or harvesting generations of boys for Space Marines. Or aren't you?
1/2. One last bit.
>>43638894
Those are mantis warriors
>>43638830
2/2
>Centurions would be more equivalent to a Sentinel than a Dread.
Sentinel: Requires operation by levers. Clumsy. Mass manufacturable.
Dreadnought: Instant mind-link-up, but requires a black carapace and plausibly permanently disabling surgery. Trade-off. Rare for whatever reason/s.
Centurion: High dexterity, responds to bearer's movements. No surgery or special organs required. Mass-manufacturable.
The point is that Centurions offer the best of both. They offer an exceptional package that makes many things redundant, some of them pillars of 40K lore. Such additions are the technologic equivalent of writing in a Mary Sue guardsman regiment who are all stronger than space marines and wield similar equipment without any of the drawbacks.
>>43638894
Mantis Warriors. It's in the file name. White Scars Successor chapter.
>>43638584
>Interface is one thing, control like an extension of your own body is another.
So what do you think the interface is for then?
>human pilots would be better suited to pilot the suits
Because they have super-human reflexes, reaction time, abilities, etc.?
>Right. Moving an object with an impulse is no easier or quicker than manually operating levers. Of course. It's not like there's real life research into implementing this methods for the sake of efficiency or anything. ¬_¬
Anon, that tank isn't going to be moving like an extension of the users body. It's still limited by the output of the engine, etc. You fucking retard.
>. . . So you agree with me?
No, I'm just saying that you seem to make a lot of assumptions of what can be done and why something is done the way it is.
>Except for the brain in the jar bit, that's more effort than just putting a person in the thing.
But you're wasting all that space to house a body that has no purpose on the operation of the thing.
>You seem to drawn to inefficient design approaches.
Says the man who wants to keep a useless body while advocating that regular humans would make better pilots than Marines.
>Most marines who live long, fight hard and still have fire in their heart after have all their limbs blown off and their spine broken happen to be veteran fighters.
So why the fuck are you arguing with me here? Just because you get injured doesn't mean you get to become a dread, and just because you're old doesn't mean you get to become a dread. You have to have some purpose for the chapter to get the honor.
>>43638519
ayyy is that termie over 4 meter tall
also i love the street look feel really gothic but not overdone
>>43638850
It's not questionable. Terminator Armor is the most advanced and strongest armor available to Marines. Dreadnoughts are literally tanks on legs. Centurions might be better armed than Terminators, but that's because they are essentially mobile weapon platforms. Dreadnoughts outclass them in everything. Except for maybe agility, but in fluff Dreadnoughts are always "shockingly agile and fast for something so big" that even that's doubtful.
And they don't put regular humans into them because they are controlled through the Marine mindlinking to the suit through his armor. And even then, some Marines get their brains fried because of the stress and will required to control it.
>>43638584
>made utterly, woefully redundant
Except for the facts like housing veteran fighters and having their experience and ferocity guide the chapter in battle and at the monastery. And the fact that the Centurion is not hooked to the Marine's black carapace, while the Dreadnought suit enables the Marine to operate with great amounts of freedom.
>invalidate one or more beloved and flavourful elements
It doesn't. You're just glossing over its limitations and making it sound like the ultimate piece of hardware for nothing else than to argue.
>With the money saved on normal suits of Power and Terminator Armour, Dreadnoughts and possibly everything on the short list in the above point, hell fucking yes.
Only in our headcanon, anon, so the argument is moot when it comes to actual 40k fluff.
>Yet Centurions - the same technology but better - are considerably cheaper, while Dreadknights are not much more expensive.
Based on no source.
>Switch your brain on.
Good one, retard. You think a kevlar vest is gonna do much to stop you from getting hurt by getting hit by a car? A tank is not gonna prevent you from getting injured when an IED flips it over. Marines can fight with grievous injuries.
>Seriously. Just think before you type.
Says the man who thinks life-support systems are just miraculously keep you awake and pumping a pilot full of drugs is a good thing, vs. a Marine who can do it naturally without any ill. While possessing inhuman reflexes, senses, etc. All without devices which can be damaged or rendered inoperable by enemy action.
>>43638917
Ah right. Thank you. Makes sense now.
>>43638888
This.
Even if it's cheaper, Centurion armor is stil a hell lot more expensive to produce than flak ir even carapace armor.
And power armor without black carapace is REALLY expensive, hence its rarity. And even then, it's still inferior to the ones with Black Carapace, what's with being neurally connected and all that.
>>43638894
Mantis warrior. The artwork is a bit weird with proportions though. One marine is almost the side of the Terminator on the left hand side, but the one in front of it is a tiny ass one.
>>43638931
I never noticed the file name as it didn't display the full title.
>>43638888
That power armour is noted as inferior in all sources, and is given the same representation in game terms merely as a result of a lack of granularity in the Armour Save stat. Moreover, such suits of armour are also invalidated by Centurion armour. Cut on producing Sororitas Power Armour and training as many sororitas, reinvest in Centurion armour and put them all in there. Tadaa. Better fighting force.Come to think of it, why do the Sororitas get en-masse power armour but no-one else? Battle Sisters are such a mindfuck. The fact that they're female is only just plausible because of the special faith power thing and connection to other female orders, plus historical hangover from the Age of Blood.
>>43638956
>Come to think of it, why do the Sororitas get en-masse power armour but no-one else?
Ecclesiarchy is the wealthiest organisation in Imperium.
>>43638898
>Then the even stronger case of fluff rape made
It's not fluff rape at all though. It's just a big, slow, suit with guns. There's no "plot holes" either.
>Marginally so compared to the enormous costs of creating a Space Marine
I doubt it. Marines pilot all their own vehicles. They would have serfs or servitors do that if they were capable of doing an acceptable job.
>That Centurions are cheaper than Dreadnoughts just undermines this pillar of fluff further.
In what way? Centurions do not preserve almost dead Marines.
>No, they are revered ancients because only a few can be selected for occupation.
Yes, they fulfill the role of revered ancients. thank you.
>If Dreadnoughts were suddenly much more available - ie in Centurion form - they wouldn't forbid everyone from getting in one anyway.
No one is forbidden from being interred in a Dreadnought. It's just something only the most valued are considered for.
>Of course.
Thank you, but feel free to concede a point more graciously in the future.
>>43638928
Dreadnoughts do not require a black carapace.
Sentinels and Centurions both rely on physical actions rather than will.
No fluff says that Centurions are able to be mass-manufactured.
>The point is that Centurions offer the best of both.
Actually Centurions are considered slow and to lack tactical flexibility, which is why they're not used by Veterans.
>>43638956
They get good gear because they're not many and the Ecclesiarchy is very wealthy. And they're not allowed to have men in arms under their command, hence women.
>>43636478
>>43636478
Isn't this Judge Dredd's colours? I thought it was him for a brief moment
>>43638956
>why do the Sororitas get en-masse power armour but no-one else? Battle Sisters are such a mindfuck.
It's hardly en-masse, there are not many Sisters.
It's also because the Ecclesiarchy is obscenely wealthy.
>>43637373
>just dancing around melting gue'la and posing with the squad
>#just crisis suit things
thinking about it from an artist standpoint it's odd to have dirty images since most spend a good deal of time drawing and don't want smudges or obvious mistakes for the viewer/client
>>43639006
>Isn't this Judge Dredd's colours?
Not really.
Though he does incorporate blue, red and gold.
>>43638935
>So what do you think the interface is for then?
Sensors. We know Space Marines can look down the barrels of their guns, and practically everyone in 40K can have special bulky optics. This tech is far more widespread and accessible than power armour.
>Because they have super-human reflexes, reaction time, abilities, etc.?
Not really needed when you're caked in armour, capable of walking at the same pace as an unarmoured man, and pack accurate target-assisted lascannons, missile launchers and any other such long-ranged high-powered weapons.
Tau and Necrons get on just fine with poor reflexes. Hell, even Orks do okay and they're a melee faction.
>Anon, that tank isn't going to be moving like an extension of the users body. It's still limited by the output of the engine, etc.
Yes, because engine output limits reaction speed, not interface and controls, of course. And you call me retarded?
>I'm just saying that you seem to make a lot of assumptions of what can be done and why something is done the way it is.
Point them out. The point I've made in this argument is based entirely on canon facts and Occam's Razor-proof conjecture. Alternatively explanations to whatever assumptions I've made would be orders of magnitude more convuluted and would probably require some kind of special phlebotinum that only Centurions could use or whatever, which would be mentioned in fluff where it the case.
Oh yes, and by acknowledging that space marines are pointless when anyone can don strength-, armour- and firebase-enhancing mass-producible armour, you really are agreeing with me, since that's literally the entirely of my point.
>But you're wasting all that space to house a body that has no purpose on the operation of the thing.
A body that is required to keep the brain alive and would cost massively more to both remove and replace with life-support machinery than simply keep and feed.
1/2
>>43638769
Nothing in any of those posts addresses the question of "So what's so unique of the totes not Aliens powerloader with guns?"
>the very post to which you responded
The one you're saying Land Raiders and Speeders are not unique. Which does not answer the question about what makes the Centurion so unique in your mind.
>This is ass-covering PR-speak for
No, it's straight up telling you you have no fucking point, other than to bait and your arguments have no merit when it comes to the actual fluff.
>Assessing the canon of fictional works and hobbies and bringing up concerns is now effiminate and childish.
No, ignoring the canon of a fictional work to just rant about how it doesn't make sense or how you don't get it, is nothing but bait.
>Prove that I don't know this.
That's not how this works, anon.
>Like?
Well, production capabilities of the Imperium, the resources needed to make Centurions, the capabilities of a Centurion, the advantages of mind-machine interfaces and the capabilities of humans and Marines for starters.
>Like?
The fluff.
>>43638956
>That power armour is noted as inferior in all sources, and is given the same representation in game terms merely as a result of a lack of granularity in the Armour Save stat.
Actually, the only time the fluff speaks on that subject is to say it offers just as much protection as Marine power armour. It's only notably deficient in its lack of black carapace integration, as such sisters spend a great deal of time training to use it.
Sister armour is a Mars original, and is actually a good example of the kinds of really good shit they could do if they actively tried to invent shit.
>>43639026
>>Because they have super-human reflexes, reaction time, abilities, etc.?
>Not really needed
not him, but thats the most retarded thing i've read in a week. Not really needed? When you are in a combat situation? No amount of armour is going to stop everything being thrown at you.
>>43638179
innit. the new codices are unequivocally better.
especially if you played BA.
Why don't they just mass produce Imperial Knights and put Tempestus Scions in there...????
>>43638935
2/2
Brain-in-jar tech is still usefull for creating robust-if-inhuman weapons like Thalaxii, or as a last resort for cripples like with Dreadnoughts.
>Says the man who wants to keep a useless body
The ability to walk around without the assistance of technology, eat food, laugh, have sex and generally enjoy life is useless how?
>while advocating that regular humans would make better pilots than Marines.
They would because they're a fraction of the price, possess the same useful capability for accuracy and discipline (Marines have higher limits for those but they aren't necessary), don't require clothes 8 sizes out from the norm, can reproduce and are not inhumane towering violence machines that need to be specially reared on savage planets and kept sequestered from the civilisations they protect in isolated monasteries.
>ust because you get injured doesn't mean you get to become a dread, and just because you're old doesn't mean you get to become a dread. You have to have some purpose for the chapter to get the honor.
Purely because Dreadnoughts are rare. The argument has moved on from this point in other posts, so as a swift summary - Dreadnoughts only have their "ooh ancient" status because they're so few that only those who would be wasted not in a dreadnought or those most valuable get a slot. En-masse Dreadnoughts - or their better equivalents, nudge nudge - invalidate this norm.
>>43639043
doesn't sound like they invented it, as much as it's a stripped down version like how inquisitors are in terminator armor
>>43639011
>BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD *UMPF*
>>43638939
>It's not questionable.
It is.
Terminator armour has an inbuilt forcefield, the ability to teleport, and is marginally smaller and more agile than Centurion armour.
Centurion armour enhances the strength and toughness of the wearer considerably, has much greater armour redundancy and can bear more and larger weapons as a stable mobile firing platform.
So far I'd call this even. Then add to it that Centurion armour does not require a black carapce or indeed any form of invasive life-changing puberty-crucial surgical procedure and Centurion armour comes out on top. Also Centurion armour, no matter its cost or difficulty in manufacture, is definitely easier to produce that Terminator armour given its relic status, and that Centurion armour has more uses outside of battle, and it starts to look really one-sided.
>Dreadnoughts are literally tanks on legs.
Tanks on legs that are smaller that Dreadknights, which are just large Centurions. Those provide similar protection and greater strength and agility, and again don't require surgery and implants. So Centurions and Dreadknights can cover the size, strength, armour, and firebase needs of the Dreadnought, and Centurions are definitely more available.
>And they don't put regular humans into them because they are controlled through the Marine mindlinking to the suit through his armor.
So you're saying Centurion armour does require a mindlink, while other anons say otherwise. Which is it? If Centurion armour does require a mind link then it would definitely help its case. Centurion armour would be level with Terminator Armour and merely superior to Dreadnoughts.
>>43638951
>Terminator
That ain't no terminator boy, that's TYBEROS, THE RED WAKE. He's the presumed chapter master of the space sharks and has got lightning claw/chain fist combos for pure rip and tear.
>>43637351
>Space marines should always appear dirty or worn down
Sounds like a shitty Space Marine if he's not placating the machine spirits of his arms and armor by not keeping them in the utmost pristine condition possible except when they are in the field itself.
Well, that or they're Death Guard.
>>43639026
>Not really needed when you're caked in armour, capable of walking at the same pace as an unarmoured man
Yeah, because being capable of moving at super-human speeds is worse than regular human speed.
>And you call me retarded?
Yes, because you're intentionally being a retard to have an argument.
>by acknowledging
You're still not getting it, are you? Your whole argument is based on assumptions that such things would be possible in the scale you imagine them to be. Which is not the case in the fluff.
>A body that is required to keep the brain alive and would cost massively more to both remove and replace with life-support machinery than simply keep and feed.
What's the cost of the wasted space and having to keep the whole body alive, rather than just the brain, hmm?
>inb4 I'm agreeing with you that Marines don't make sense in the context of 40k
>>43639057
>Brain-in-jar tech is still usefull for creating robust-if-inhuman weapons like Thalaxii,
Technology lost to the Imperium.
>The ability to walk around without the assistance of technology, eat food, laugh, have sex and generally enjoy life is useless how?
What purpose does it serve in combat? If you want the most efficient fighting machine, then such things should not be of any concern.
>They would because they're a fraction of the price, possess the same useful capability for accuracy and discipline
Maybe you need to read more on the capabilities of Marines, if you think that.
>En-masse Dreadnoughts
So now you're advocating for lots of dreadnoughts, while just a moment ago you were bitching about dudes being able to get out of their walkers. Stop fucking moving the goal post all over the place, faggot.
>or their better equivalents
Oh, I hope you're not talking about Centurions here.
>>43639138
>Terminator armour has an inbuilt forcefield
[citation needed]
The only one is the caraphractii.
>>43639171
Uh, no, that's what the Crux Terminatus is.
>>43639076
01110100 01100001 01101100 01101011 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101101 01111001 00100000 01101000 01100001 01101110 01100100
>>43637182
Ruined? They are what make it great! I love this one because it goes out of its way to strip the veneer of legend and nobility off of the Astartes. For all their myth and grandeur they are still bred for war. War is one of the ugliest things in human existence. Have you ever seen those snapshots of protesters versus riot police? You see those contorted facial expressions if they don't have masks or scarves or something.
This picture is the most humanizing Space Marine picture of all. Its great.
>>43636719
This one?
>>43639181
The Crux is a "stone icon" not a shield generator.
>>43638942
>Except for the facts like housing veteran fighters and having their experience and ferocity guide the chapter in battle and at the monastery.
Something which you could do with Centurion armour and Dreadknights. You need to follow along, this stuff was covered back near the beginning of the argument: Dreadnoughts are redundant.
>You're just glossing over its limitations
Like?
>making it sound like the ultimate piece of hardware
Precisely because it literally is, there's literally no drawback to it and Dreadknights over Dreadnoughts and quite possibly other suits of powera rmour as well.
>for nothing else than to argue.
Do you really, honestly think I'd put this much thought into an argument about Warhammer if I didn't care about the outcome? You beggar belief.
>Only in our headcanon, anon
Lol nice freudian slip. Anyway, nevermind that cutting back on producing Power and Terminator armour would save money and resources by virtue of the fact that cutting back on anything that costs money and resources saves money and resources; the burden of proving that normal suits of Power and Terminator armour are NOT expensive is on you, not me.
>Based on no source.
You're seriously telling me that Dreadnoughts - rare and prized relics - are less expensive than Centurions, which can be mass produced in similar numbers to Terminator Armour?
>the last few lines
Utterly irrelevant shitposting. Wouldn't dignify with a response.
I love the slightly goofy old stuff. Maybe because it's always filled with combatants, rather than singular space marines looking cool.
>>43638973
That's actually a fair cop. The Ecclesiarchy is a mad church that would spend money in inefficient manners at the cost of the rest of the Imperium.
>>43638993
>>43639007
>>43639043
First I've ever heard of that. I always though the same as this guy >>43639068.
>>43639138
>Centurion armour enhances the strength and toughness of the wearer considerably
So do bikes, so is this a point for them as well?
>much greater armour redundancy
In what ways?
>can bear more and larger weapons as a stable mobile firing platform
But lose that bonus when taking close combat weapons, which terminators get stock.
>does not require a black carapce or indeed any form of invasive life-changing puberty-crucial surgical procedure
And thus not get any of the benefits of a black carapace interface.
>Dreadknights
I do hope you're not trying to say Dreadknights can be available in massive quantities to chapters, because they're rare as fuck even for the GK.
>Which is it?
The Centurion does not use the black carapace, that's in the fluff, but seeing that the user's arms are across their torso inside the suit, there's some form of operation that lets the arms be used.
Mind like is possible, but it's far from the capabilities of the black carapace.
>>43639138
>blablabla better than Terminator and Dreadnaught
citation needed
I'm pretty sure that's literally their fluff you cunt. They aren't better than Dreadnaughts or Terminators, but they are cheaper and offer firepower to normal Marines without being in 1st company or being crippled.
Go read 6th and 7th SM codexes and then come back.
>>43639181
Prove it, because I sure as hell can't find anything saying that.
>>43636478
modern fantasy art in general is soulless
compare your average fantasy game art now to stuff like discworld illustrations or early elder scrolls or indeed john blanche
>>43639150
Sure, but I don't remember him being Primarch-sized. Here, it looks like the marine is the size of a teenager.
>>43639068
Yeah, 'invent' isn't the right term, 'stripped down' isn't either.
The principle of what power armour is does not require the user to be an astartes. Rather, an astartes is engineered to make optimal use of power armour, To say that the armour used by sisters or inquisitors is somehow descended from the astartes marks is only really accurate in terms of general enhancements that apply to power armour in general. The technology itself pre-dates the Imperium.
It would be more accurate to say that sister armour is an example of the sort of armour stormtroopers could be equipped with, not in the whole 'has tits' way, but in that it is actually a really good piece of equipment and the differences in performance between a sister unit and her opposite number in the marines has everything to do with the marine being a genetically altered superman, and nothing to do with the armour itself.
Sisters of course, pay for that privilege. The amount of effort it takes to train a sister to be capable of using power armour is enormous and those who prove insufficient physically get moved to other Sororitas wings, while those who pove insufficient spiritually get shipped out to the Tempestus.
>>43639207
>Something which you could do with Centurion armour and Dreadknights.
But you can't.
Neither Centurions or Dreadknights have the life preserving capability of Dreadnoughts.
>Like?
Centurions are very slow. Veterans do not operate in them because they lack flexibility.
>Precisely because it literally is
It's literally not though. Even in the Centurion's own fluff the drawbacks are mentioned.
>the burden of proving that normal suits of Power and Terminator armour are NOT expensive is on you, not me.
You must prove that Centurions are the cheapest option.
>You're seriously telling me that Dreadnoughts - rare and prized relics - are less expensive than Centurions, which can be mass produced in similar numbers to Terminator Armour?
Terminator armour is not mass produced.
No fluff says Centurion armour is mass produced either.
You're making way too many assumptions.
>Utterly irrelevant shitposting. Wouldn't dignify with a response.
Don't point the shit posting finger at him, not from your position.
>>43638984
>It's just a big, slow, suit with guns.
That completely invalidates another big, slow suit with guns, and possibly far more. We're going in circles here.
>Marines pilot all their own vehicles. They would have serfs or servitors do that if they were capable of doing an acceptable job.
Normal humans are perfectly capable of piloting Rhinos, and Ad Mech use Servitors to power Land Raiders. Marines just use their fellow marines to deny weakspots to their opponent.
>Centurions do not preserve almost dead Marines.
The point is that they could do and more. Centurions are essentially Dreadnoughts with more size variety and you don't HAVE to be on lifesupport. Effectively Dreadnoughts exist as a subniche of Centurion.
That last sentence is so far the strongest argument for the non-redundancy of Centurions and Dreadnoughts thus far.
>they fulfill the role of revered ancients. thank you.
This isn't so much a point going in circle as a great flaming ouroborous in the sky seeking to devour mankind. Let me make it perfectly clear. Dreadnoughts happen to serve a role of revered ancients because there are few of them and only valued people get enterred resulting. If Dreadnoughts weren't rare then anyone could pilot them, valued or otherwise. Ancient and valuable dreadnought pilots would continue to be a thing, just not the norm of Dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts were NOT designed to be revered ancients, on account of the fact that you cannot design something to be reverred and ancient.
Dreadnoughts were designed to be large armoured gun platforms. The reverred ancient thing is a side-effect of their limited use, just like Terminator armour. If entire chapters of space marines could wear Terminator armour, it wouldn't have its veteran mystique. Veteran mystique was not the design purpose of Terminator armour, because as an idea that makes no sense.
1/2? This is dragging on
>>43639207
>Something which you could do with Centurion armour and Dreadknights.
How? If you're a fucking cripple, how do you pilot a Centurion? And if you're not a Grey Knight, where do you get a Dreadknight from? Are you fucking seriously trying to argue that thing's widespread now as well? Do you fucking know the fluff at all?
>Dreadnoughts are redundant.
Anon, you can keep saying it all day, it doesn't become anymore true.
>Like?
Is this the part where I tell you to learn to follow a conversation or what? Read the fluff, learn the differences. It's not hard. Easier than trying to come up with reasons why Dreadknights are common enough technology that they should replace Dreads.
>Precisely because it literally is
[citation needed]
>Do you really, honestly think I'd put this much thought into an argument about Warhammer if I didn't care about the outcome?
Doesn't make you anymore right.
>Lol nice freudian slip.
It's called a "typo", anon, but I'll forgive you for not knowing what it is, you've been potato enough in this thread.
>You're seriously telling me
No, anon, you're seriously telling me that you have the numbers, which I very much doubt.
>Couldn't come up with a response.
FTFY
I think we both know this exchange is over. It's been fun. I shall dub you "centurionac".
>>43638984
2/2?
>feel free to concede a point more graciously in the future.
I will be sure to take notes from your dismissive, circular and incoherent display in the future.
>Dreadnoughts do not require a black carapace.
Which is why you see SO MANY guardsmen veterans/officers and commissars in Dreadnoughts of their own, treasured relic-warriors of their regiment or scola. Oh wait.
>Sentinels and Centurions both rely on physical actions rather than will.
Yet one requires operation of levers while the other uses sensors to perfectly match movements. There's little functional difference between the latter and the Dreadnought. The Dreadnought goes further because its occupant is disabled.
>No fluff says that Centurions are able to be mass-manufactured.
They can certainly be produced far more readily than Dreadnoughts, which in your own words are rare and priceless relics.
>Actually Centurions are considered slow and to lack tactical flexibility
More pure illogicality from Centurion fluff. Centurions are about as agile (or somehow less so?) than a Dreadnought, the ultimate veteran kit. Dreadnoughts are not widely deemed tactically inflexible, they're highly prized and praised for their battlefield roles and power. Centurions are just that but more. Elements of space marine forces not in Centurion armour would be the rarity and not vice versa without a limiting factor like that of Dreadnoughts and Terminators.
>>43639325
>That completely invalidates another big, slow suit with guns, and possibly far more. We're going in circles here.
Centurions are actually markedly slow however.
Terminators and Dreadnoughts are can go at a fast enough pace.
>Normal humans are perfectly capable of piloting Rhinos, and Ad Mech use Servitors to power Land Raiders.
I never said they weren't. But they're not capable of doing an acceptable job for the Marines or else they would.
>The point is that they could do and more.
No they couldn't. They lack the technology for that.
>Centurions are essentially Dreadnoughts with more size variety and you don't HAVE to be on lifesupport. Effectively Dreadnoughts exist as a subniche of Centurion.
Dreadnought come in different size varieties too.
Dreadnoughts come with life support and suspension technologies.
Dreadnoughts are also controlled via mind impulse.
You could group Cents and Dreads together if you want, but you could also include Knights, Titans and Sentinels too.
>This isn't so much a point going in circle as a great flaming ouroborous in the sky seeking to devour mankind. Let me make it perfectly clear.
How about you listen instead? In fluff Dreadnoughts have their own unique niche. You can try to hand wave it away all you want, but Centurions do no besmirrch that at all.
>Dreadnoughts were designed to be large armoured gun platforms.
They were designed to allow mortally wounded warriors to continue to serve. Marines used tanks and aircraft for gun platforms.
>>43639033
I quite literally spell out the answer to that question in the very post to which you respond. I was alarmingly correct in prediction that you wouldn't be able to deduce it from any post if you couldn't from those before. I'll conduct an experiment: I'll copy and paste the exact same summary from that last post below, and see if you can spot it then:
Centurion armour uniquely allows for personal powered armour - both strength, firing platform and protection - without the use of invasive disabiling surgery like a Dreadnought. At one point I highlight that Centurion armour uniquely lacks the restrictions of basic power armour if information supplied by another anon is true.
Let's see if you can actual respond to this point now, rather than claiming that you didn't see it and it hasn't been said.
>The one you're saying Land Raiders and Speeders are not unique. Which does not answer the question about what makes the Centurion so unique in your mind.
Here you go:
>No massive invasive surgery as part-and-parcel of a complete organic reconstruction process.
The very last sentence.
>it's straight up telling you you have no fucking point
Which you make without evidence or dealing with the points raised in counter. In other words, a statement that's totally ignorable.
>other than to bait
See the middle sentence of >>43639207. Claiming the other side's argument is just some elaborate ruse without either evidence or a motivation for said ruse is the last, pitiful refuge of a terminal prig incapable of acknowleding their own wronghood or conceding a point.
>ignoring the canon of a fictional work
Like?
>just rant about how it doesn't make sense or how you don't get it, is nothing but bait.
By all means, point out what makes my posts more rantlike than your own. Is it the rate at which you use ad hominems compared to me?
Regardless, even if I didn't understand some piece of fluff somehow in bizarro /tg/, how is bringing this up somehow "nothing but bait"?
1/2?
>>43639448
Can you make your own thread for this?
>>43639384
>Which is why you see SO MANY guardsmen veterans/officers and commissars in Dreadnoughts of their own, treasured relic-warriors of their regiment or scola. Oh wait.
That's because Dreadnoughts are exceptionally rare. Space marines aren't going to give them up for some human nobodies. However we've seen both a Sister Dreadnought and an Assassin Dreadnought in the fluff.
>Yet one requires operation of levers while the other uses sensors to perfectly match movements.
It's not perfect though. As said, Centurions are sluggish. Dreadnoughts can move as if it were their own body.
>They can certainly be produced far more readily than Dreadnoughts, which in your own words are rare and priceless relics.
Yes, but what's your point?
They're not as good as Dreadnoughts, but more can be made, so there's room for both.
>More pure illogicality from Centurion fluff.
No, I suspect that whatever comes will be more illogicality on your part.
> Centurions are about as agile (or somehow less so?) than a Dreadnought, the ultimate veteran kit.
It's less agile, yes. We've been over this I feel.
>Dreadnoughts are not widely deemed tactically inflexible, they're highly prized and praised for their battlefield roles and power.
Dreadnoughts are faster, and are typically Chapter Heroes with proven great battlefield minds.
>Centurions are just that but more.
That but less. They're more primitive, slower, and piloted by not even veterans.
>Elements of space marine forces not in Centurion armour would be the rarity
Again, no. Centurions are too slow.
>>43639188
The left-hand side looks like sisters in a war. The middle is a portrait of a specific sister. The right-hand side looks like a bunch of guys in church.
I don't know, maybe it was SUPPOSED to look that way, but it looks like 3 pictures overlayed.
>>43639033
2/2?
Do you just use harsh-sounding words whenever you can't just talk someone down and hope they stick, regardless of their actual meaning?
>That's not how this works, anon.
Yes it does. You made the claim that I don't know X and Y, you have to prove it. Show how I demonstrated a lack of knowledge or misunderstanding about those things and then illustrate the truth. Otherwise your claim is empty.
>production capabilities of the Imperium
Here are some facts about the Imperium:
- Terminator armour is rare and can only be produced in very limited numbers
- Dreadnoughts are evern more rare and relicy
- Centurion armour is neither
Ergo, Centurion armour is more easily produced and accessible than either of those suits. Not hard to follow.
>the resources needed to make Centurions
The same resources needed to make other suits of Power Armour and Dreadnoughts, only less advanced because they don't incorporate a life support system among other possibles.
>the capabilities of a Centurion
Stated very thoroughly in canon and by others in this thread. Point out where I made a claim about Centurion capability that contradicts canon.
>the advantages of mind-machine interfaces
The commonly-understood advantage of increased reaction speed due to the removal of middle-stages like pressing a button. This is not exclusive to 40K, you can *Google* this.
>the capabilities of humans and Marines for starters.
Marines are larger and stronger than humans, can survive certain conditions better and metabolise more food and chemicals, can wear power armour easily and have greater minimums and maximums of skills and reflexes. In return an enormous amount of resources and effort must be expent on creating a marine, which must be performed during a key age period on a pubescent boy of a certain degree of natural strength, and the product is infertile. Point out where this summary contradicts canon.
>The fluff.
Unspecific and useless.
I know some people didn't like these, but I fucking loved the pics of the galaxy with the battles of the major factions. The Tyranid one especially, it really hits home the "there are infinite fuckers from beyond the galaxy who will eat you" vibe they need. Looking at this they seem to outnumber every other race COMBINED
>>43639044
No, but being miles away and hammering the other side with powerful weaponry while encased in armour will. To repeat myself, Tau, Necrons and even Orks do fine with even less reflexes.
I am fully aware this isn't official I just love Alex Boca's take on 40K art and thought I'd share.
>>43639569
>Point out where this summary contradicts canon.
Okay.
>an enormous amount of resources and effort must be expent on creating a marine
This doesn't follow. The materials need to create Marines are biologically generate by other Marine free of charge.
> the product is infertile.
Never ever said.
>>43639193
HOW BIG IS THAT BIRD
>>43639156
>Yeah, because being capable of moving at super-human speeds is worse than regular human speed.
If it bears an eye-watering pricetage for little battlefield benefit, yes it is far worse.
>Yes, because you're intentionally being a retard to have an argument.
You're not interested at all in reason or logic, are you? Anything that contradicts you must be the work of brain damage or malicious trolls out to GET YOU, got it.
I note at this point that you can't even counter the bulk of the post to which you respond, and instead home in on snippets of words in sentences to which you can make some vague dismissal without evidence. You do realise that this isn't saving you any face, right?
>What's the cost of the wasted space and having to keep the whole body alive, rather than just the brain, hmm?
Oh my word, I'm so sorry! I didn't realise I was talking to a real life Martian who has never encountered a human before and has no idea as to the species dietary requirements, safety and hygiene concerns and rest and recreational needs! Here, lemme just google the U.S. government's telephone number so you can talk to Mr. Obama right away. He'll get you acquainted with the biology of a normal human being, and you can share with use your quirky bio-concerns in kind!
>>inb4 I'm agreeing with you that Marines don't make sense in the context of 40k
Marines do make sense because outside of absurd Ecclesiarchy bullshit and Inquisitors, people can't just wear Power Armour, and it isn't as good as when Space Marines wear it. The other space marine stuff is just gravy.
>Technology lost to the Imperium.
Which doesn't invalidate the theoretical value of the tech, but anyway.
>What purpose does it serve in combat?
Allowing for more resources to be spent on guns, armour, ammunition, buildings, supplies etc. etc. rather than on pointless surgery and life support.
>If you want the most efficient fighting machine
Smart people want the most efficient army.
1/2
>>43638383
>dat background
>>43639156
2/2
>Maybe you need to read more on the capabilities of Marines, if you think that.
Tell me, how large is the gap in skill between one BS 4 model and another? Is is more significant than the gap between any BS 4 model and a BS 3 one? Why?
>So now you're advocating for lots of dreadnoughts
I'm not advocating for fucking anything, you dolt. Where does "advocation" even enter this argument? You really aren't capable of discerning people's motives, are you?
>just a moment ago you were bitching about dudes being able to get out of their walkers.
Point out where.
>Oh, I hope you're not talking about Centurions here.
Again: Not even reading the argument. Some people are beyond help.
I'm going to go and eat dinner now. In my abscence, try summarising your point coherently and your objections to my stance. That'll help matters when I return, so we can end this neatly.
>>43638383
I actually really like this picture.
Except for hammer-cape in the background there posing for no reason.
>>43637861
Most Dreadnought paterns are STC as well.
>>43639832
>>43639845
(to be fair these are all colorized, but I still love the actual artwork itself)
This thread now belongs to the paint-splattered megablox Hamster/Mouse Skaven
Bow to your technicolour overlords
>>43639858
>>43639873
Little hamsters, big adventures!
>>43639873
Oh dear lord, WHFB deserved to die for such shitty art.
>>43639658
That's the Ziggian Skyhawk, native to a world in Segmentum Pacificus, but exported across the Imperium for nobles and rich ecclesiarchs
>>43639913
Is there anyone who can take land marines seriously?
>>43639913
