I've been thinking about how to have a DnD type game where characters don't gain XP or levels, but grow in power in other ways, mostly by looting.
>Fighters find magical weapons and armor
>Wizards find scrolls and books with new spells
>Rogues and skillmonkey type characters get to spend X number of points on skills that they used during a session at the end of it
>All characters can find various useful items
What do you think?
Have you got ideas for other classes?
How the hell would clerics improve themselves?
>>43589736
Disjunction would be hell because it'd be like leave drain except it always sends you back to level 1 And you can't gain them back overtime like normal.
>>43589777
If you're already rewriting the system to remove XP, additionally rewriting disjunction into not affecting items or being temporary will not be a problem.
>>43589736
haveyoutriednotplayingdnd.jpg
Seriously though, classes and levels are, I would say, the two most integral components of D&D. You could maybe tweak the level system (to drastically reduce hit point gain, for instance), but the point at which you dispense with it, you're essentially playing a different game.
why do you want to do this? would you be able to accomplish your goal by tying some or all of these rewards to an exp threshold? your wizard reward already sounds like you're just rejiggering spells by level.
So just a way for you to take away and give levels on the fly?
Are there any games without level ups or equipment grind
The full range of game options is available from the start, and as you progress the game goes up in difficulty
Seems like it would make planning and balancing encounters more difficult than it really needs to be, u less you're still effectively giving them all the pieces you'd get for leveling up except distributed through magic items. At that point you may as well have levels and have an in-universe macguffin, like mystic rings that a wizard bestows more power into in exchange for completing a set number of tasks for him.
>>43589847
An inability to level up removes the reward portion if the risk/reward system at the heart of most games. It could be done, but then why would the players be motivated to do anything?
>>43589736
Just so you know for the future, /tg/ spergs out over dnd sonce it isn't very good but is all most people are willing to play. Call them tabletop rpg's, not dnd like games, if you don't want people to sperg out all over you.
Anyway, it's not an awful idea, you just need to make sure that character creation gives you a viable set of skills if you aren't going to be advancing those skills at all in the future.
>>43589890
Their character's goals as a person, maybe?
I hesitate to say even "most" games are still in the space where adventurers are robots that transmute orc corpses and gold into power to to find more orc corpses and gold.
>>43589847
of the non-D&D systems i've played, none of them have an equipment grind. one I'm in currently the GM has said we're basically not going to level, and several others seem like they'd be able to provide a perfectly engaging campaign with a flat player powerlevel. That could be true of D&D too, but there is an expectation of mechanical growth when faced with dungeons and monsters that I personally just don't feel in other systems.
By level 6 you'll have to have +5 weapons to compensate for basic BAB and nothing else. It'll be a slippery slope.
>>43589827
>why do you want to do this?
Instead of having to be high level to kill tough enemies, players need to be smart and have the right equipment/spells. Basically, when the DM says
"There's a dragon over there in that mountain with a fabulous hoard"
the response from the players should be
"Let's figure out what we need to kill it, and where we can find that"
instead of
"Well we're only level 1 so we better go kill some goblins for a while"
>>43589891
>you just need to make sure that character creation gives you a viable set of skills if you aren't going to be advancing those skills at all in the future.
Now that you say it, it does seem quite unfair to only let rogues advance skills. Better to give all characters skill points, but rogues get more.
>>43589941
Weapons should be more situational than just +X. In the example above, if the dragon is an ice dragon then a fire sword might be especially powerful against it.
>>43590129
Play a different system. You're asking for something that DnD cannot deliver. Try GURPS, warhammer fantasy, song of swords, savage worlds, or any other classless/levelless system.
>>43590173
it'd definitely have to be a different system but it doesn't sound like it'd be too hard to homebrew a system for this that's very much informed by D&D.
>>43590378
Before you do this, ask yourself why you want a system informed by dnd?
Found a very cool idea for a cleric here.
http://goblinpunch.blog
spot.com/2013/12/towards-better-cleric.html
>>43590501
Several reasons.
>DnD is a very robust system that is easy to change or add to
>Me and my players are familiar with DnD
>There is a huge amount of first, second and third party material available
>>43590612
You've only played dnd haven't you? I'm not going to disparage dnd too much because I don't hate it, but it is not an easy game to change and it is not robust. What edition are you playing?
>>43590612
Yet if you're dispensing with levels, you either need to adjust monster stats to be attainable by your players, or you need to invent equipment that can scale them up to the challenge, or you're going non-combat problem-solving anyway.
By the time you do this, you've removed most of the core mechanics of the game, leaving you with the story and thematics. Which can be applied to any other system anyway.
>>43590673
I'm playing a B/X hack. And I have played other games than DnD thank you very much.
>>43590687
Only things that really need adjusting is HP and damage, that's easy enough.
>>43590855
That's cute, you think HP damage is his anything of real significance stillvgets done.
On, that note, what the fuck do people of your sort want out of encounters? Why is "they just fucking kill the dragon after a battle using the games mechanics" so awful compared to "I want my players to do a roundabout song and dance number to solve a problem the game and their class has already given them the toolsvto solve, but I can't make that blow up in their face"?
>>43591021
Fucking phone posting, sorry if some of that is unreadable
>>43591021
I just want the party to have a chance against, and be challenged, by the whole world at the same time. A level 1 party has no chance against a dragon, a level 10 party isn't challenged by a band of goblins. I hope that both dragons and goblins will be viable enemies for a level-less party.
>>43589802
Why rewrite it? 9th level spells are MEANT to fuck your shit up. just make it the focus of a campaign or a powerful boss.
>>43591199
So have Red Dragon be weaker or the goblins be stronger, and change the context as appropriate. A full grown manisfistation of destruction has no reason to lose to people barely above "woodsman with an axe to grind and nothing to lose" in terms of power. Really, you're killing a major part of the game by axing the sense of growth in that sense. Shit, I'd say its kinda important to let the party have those "we aren't strong enough" and "the bandits are being driven before us! We've come a long way" moments.
>>43591199
point the first: that's practically the tag line of 5e, have you looked at it?
point the second: why should a bunch of goblins and a dragon both be challenging to the same person? would the dragon be challenged by a bunch of goblins? this isn't even to say tiers of play are inherently justified, but if you want a guy who kills dragons to be scared of goblins those goblins should reasonably be capable of something to scare dragons. there was an article by I think chris perkins where he threw a ship full of goblins against an epic level party in 4e. the goblins were understandably a curbstomp, but the encounter involved them using huge keg bombs and entire gangs of goblins engaging the players, so that they were a level appropriate encounter in a very different way than a level 1 party vs five govlins would be.
>>43589777
Hold up, didn't they remove Disjunction in 5e?
I can't find it anywhere.
>>43590612
>>DnD is a very robust system
>>43591199
Play 5e, and always remember that encounters don't take place in white rooms, that and you control the enemies, not some exploitable AI.
>>43589736
E6, anon.
>>43589736
It might turn characters of the same class to samey
>>43591331
>>43591350
The idea is that a dragon should be a very challenging enemy that will require planning and preparation from the party. If they just waltz into its lair straight out of chargen they'll get slaughtered.
The random goblins would of course be less challenging to a party that has acquired some good gear, but still a credible threat.
5e seems to do well on the "goblins as credible threat" front at least. I have the 5e monster manual and it looks like monsters could be lifted from there with just a few changes.
>>43591746
>very challenging enemy that will require planning and preparation from the party
1 hour at morning, that's all the preparation important PCs in the group need, for the rest, just be good meat shields.
>>43590173
I don't see how skills are different from class levelling? You still get stronger over time.
>>43591199
>>43591746
I think I see your problem. What you're talking about is more a matter of adventure design than game design. If you want low level PCs to be able to take on high level monsters, you don't need to get rid of classes and levelling to do that, at all. Obviously, a system like 5e where the mechanical difference between high and low level monsters/PCs is smaller makes this easier, but it's not required. You need to understand, the game mechanics represent a fair fight. If a level 1 fighter challenges an adult red dragon to honourable single combat, he's going to lose. Witch is why he shouldn't do that. He should do what real people do when facing a superior opponent. Cheat. Lay in ambush. Use guerilla tactics. Sigurd the dragonslayer dug and hid in a hole so he could stab the dragon in it's belly.
If you want the PCs to be able to do this, you don't need to take away classes and levelling, the two concepts are in no way mutually exclusive. If you want the players to do something other than solely rely on their class and level to help them defeat enemies, you don't need to take away levelling. You just need to make those other options available and encourage your players to use them. Levelling being a mechanic in the game does not stop players using planning and preparation to take on greater threats.
>>43592481
>. Cheat. Lay in ambush. Use guerilla tactics.
Please give me an example of a level 1 PC at WBL using these things to kill a Red Dragon without blatant DM fiat.
