>The Russian zoologist Dmitry Belyaev bred tame Siberian foxes from very wild ones in just forty generations.
You know what this means don't you?
That you should be on /his/ instead of /tg/ ?
>>43580093
That... no, I got nothing.
That breeding fear-reactions out of animals redistributes their stiff ear cartilage?
>>43580093
Eugenics is viable?
We can fix Goblins!
>>43580144
I don't think breeding tame foxes involved fixing them.
>>43580093
Domesticated foxes? What are you getting at?
>>43580144
I feel like it's been done.
>>43580093
That evolution produces significant results in a (relatively) short amount of time if the selection pressure is very high.
Yeah, but we're gonna need an oppressive dictatorship and a lot of teenage girls.
>>43580093
Nope
>>43580186
Yes, you've discovered artificial selection.
Calling it 'evolution' isn't entirely accurate, since it's neither a newly distinct species or even better suited to any new environment.
>>43580189
>Yeah, but we're gonna need an oppressive dictatorship and a lot of teenage girls.
where do I sign up?
>>43580093
That it's easy to domesticate Siberian foxes?
>>43580093
You wanted to post pic related OP, didn't you?
And before some gullible fool believes it, pic related is fake.
>>43580093
That humanity could, one day, domesticate the negro?
>>43580093
That you are a science fan and don't know anything about real science? Try reading a book instead of pop sci articles.
>>43580224
That really feels like 'The husband was infertile' more than the basis for some multiracial scare.
>>43580224
>>43580277
Sounds like the basis of a crusade to me...
>>43580093
It does not take 40 generations, so it tells me you are actually referencing something. Maybe 40 cakes?
By selecting for a positive instinctive reaction to humans you can make a domesticated fox in a few generations, and make a wild one again in a few more by selecting against that trait.
It could make you think about human society, who feeds you, and when.
>>43580093
Why wouldn't long-lived races (like elves) breed humans into a variety of specialized pet breeds?
>>43580359
what do you think halflings and gnomes are?
>>43580348
He began seeing hints of domesticity after five generations if I recall correctly. After forty generations, the change was a lot more pronounced and definitive.
>>43580359
Why do you think humans have colors?
>>43580093
That the time between fox generations is a lot shorter than the time between human generations?
I mean, shit, if you decide to go full shitstain and have kids breeding at age ten, it'd still take four hundred years to go through forty generations. And, to be honest, I would be unsurprised to learn that there are behavioral and physiological differences between people today and people from 1615.
>>43580359
Ethical concerns about performing eugenics on sapient humanoids? Like, D&D elves are Chaotic as a whole, if I recall, and it seems like those types would be against this sort of systematic controlling of people's fates and free will.
>>43580093
who's the cutie? is there more?
>>43580224
That is some serious bait you got there. (not your post, but the article)
>>43580185
But that's an elf!
Does this mean if I have a big enough starting population to draw semen from and if the females of that populated signed waivers to be artificially inseminated, I can artificially select for elves, dwarfs and 8 foot tall muscle girls after 40 generations?
>>43580093
...no?
>>43580412
>elves
>considering humans "people"
![Pinky-and-the-Brain[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/dNaxTte.jpg "Pinky-and-the-Brain[1].jpg")
>>43580093
Well, I think so Brain, but if we took the bumpers off bumper cars, someone could get hurt!
>>43580160
They're not actually domesticated, just tame. Real domestication takes longer.
>>43580412
They're also the ones least likely to concern themselves with ethics.
>>43580562
How do you manage to get labelled "Usually Chaotic Good" if you regularly treat people like they're base animals?
>>43580539
Humans reach sexual maturity at roughly 17 give or take 2 years.
This means you're artificially breeding for 680 years.
How the fuck would you go about doing this nonsensical eugenic program for that long?
>>43580203
>or even better suited to any new environment
While everything else you said was accurate this last point is debatable.
Humans are unarguably an environmental factor, and human interest and intervention has worked wonders for the success of several species, and human indifference, exploitation, or enmity has driven a number of species to extinction.
>>43580605
>people
you keep using that word
>>43580539
that might still count as human experimentation and thus be illegal unless you went about it properly
>>43580639
Make a religion out of it? Make robots to do it?
>>43580647
>elf berserker
How's that CON penalty working out for you?
>>43580639
D&D-fags are gonna answer the same way they always do: personal plane, immortal lich.
>>43580642
Tame or domesticated foxes didn't exactly become the new thing, though, so it's not like tame foxes were suited to the environment provided by humans.
>>43580093
>Foxes that were chosen for tameness got floppy ears and barked more often than screaming , unlike the aggressive foxes
So it means if we attempted to breed orcs for refinery and peaceful natures they'd turn into really buff elves and if you tried to breed really aggressive gnomes they'd just turn into goblins
>>43580539
Easy, select samples of the population that sexual mature earlier.
>The later study identified as puberty as occurring in 48% of African-American girls by age nine, and 12% of white girls by that age.
Which means through a couple of generations you can probably lower the sexual maturity age to 15 or 14, if you do a dozen more iterations and select for the rapid sexual maturity you can probably push it to 13 or 12.
>>43580093
Gracilization of the skeleton and musculature associated with domestication in animals can also be found in humans. Human bones even as far back as 5000 years are much less dense than ancient Homo Sapiens.
We're already domesticated. We have been for thousands of years. We did it to ourselves without intending to, and even modern hunter-gatherers are significantly less robust than our ancient forebears.
>>43580676
>playing a game where elves get minus con
Dunno what you're talkin about cuz I don't play shit games
>>43580748
Pedoshits pls go.
>>43580795
pedos are attracted to people who aren't sexually mature, so wouldn't a pedo breed to delay puberty?
>>43580592
Underrated post.
>>43580842
Depends on if they still look 12 or 13 at sexual maturity
>not breeding to match sexual maturity with mental maturity, while decreasing the libido, so that AoC laws actually make sense
>>43580203
>neither a newly distinct species or even better suited to any new environment
You should reconsider these statements. The first part isnt really core to the process of evolution. The second part is just incorrect.
Alright, you've convinced me /tg/. In my next setting, the elves have been running a human eugenics project for millenia for some specific purpose. Probably less sex farms and more culling the human kind which sprung up and failed to meet their purposes.
I just need ideas for a purpose now.
>>43580748
>niggers rape children so often that the children capable of being pregnant are reproducing more than normal children
Firebomb Africa when
>>43580925
>I just need ideas for a purpose now.
King Glorafilinil the Great got bored, and passed an edict; none of his successors care enough to repeal it.
How does this help domesticating the feral catgirls we still don't have?
>>43580122
Underrated scientific post.
>>43580203
Doesn't evolution just mean changing from one thing into something else
>>43580966
For every dollar spent on welfare, a dollar isn't spent on gentically engineering catgirls.
What do care about more, /tg/? Blacks or catgirls?
>>43580925
The darkness again comes to destroy all civilizations. The elves have already been overwhelmed and lost the battle before, but now there is hope, in order to prepare the young races, the elves systematically cull the meek and the vile so that only the brave and the righteous remain.
>>43580122
That's genuinely fascinating if true?
>>43580695
Wikipedia mentions differences in about 40 genes between the "Domesticated" foxes and the Farm-Raised strain of tame Red Fox they were derived from, however both the farm raised and Domesticated showed differences in over 2000 genes when compared to wild foxes.
>>43580093
You do realize that the domesticated population is unsustainably small and inbred, right? That's why they're selling them off for a couple grand each. The program, ultimately, failed.
>>43581032
What was the explicit purpose of the program?
>>43580991
I care more for ca/tg/irls than catgirls, to be honest.
>>43581072
>>43580991
Now I want a cute catgirl with delicious brown skin who is also into traditional games.
>>43581069
To establish and domesticate a stable breed from a wild species, using a modern understanding of genetics, in order to further understanding of genetics in general and the mechanics of domestication in particular.
Also, to see if they could.
The less-successful program to domesticate moose had "produce a beast of burden which may replace the horse" as it's stated goal. It was canceled once cars beat them to the punch.
>>43580093
Their findings, including the fact that they repeated this experiment in multiple species, implies that there are select sets of "domestication" genes we can identify, and thus genetically engineer domesticated animals in only one generation.
Domesticated red pandas. Imagine.
>>43581006
It would kinda make sense, since the perky ears are to keep alert.
>>43580093
>>The Russian zoologist Dmitry Belyaev bred tame Siberian foxes from very wild ones in just forty generations.
>You know what this means don't you?
That OP just heard about something that's been common knowledge for years?
Now I want chocolate.
>>43580968
>>43581006
Probably has more to do with the humans who are doing the selecting. Which of these looks more domesticated?difference in behaviour is small
>>43580160
It's actual domestication. The experiment specifically set out to replicate what had been done in wolves over thousands of years, but this time with a rigorous scientific approach. And it cut the time down to about half a century. By all domestication criteria they succeeded.
"Tame" is what you get when you raise a tiger cub by hand. It still has all those old problem instincts and its progeny aren't genetically programmed to automatically like humans.
>>43580093
Breeding Tame Elves would take thousands of years?
>>43581155
That would imply that they lost the floppy ears because they no longer needed them due to natural selection. The breeding was aiming for domestication only (presumably) so it's more likely that the floppy ears are controlled by the same genes as the ones that "cause domestication".
Which would maybe make it easier to identify the genes responsible and maybe explain floppy ears in dogs.
But that's a really unqualified opinion.
>>43581257
>floppy ears are controlled by the same genes as the ones that "cause domestication"
This was a major finding of the experiment. Multiple traits we associate with dogs but not wolves cropped up in the foxes, despite the only factor being selected for was friendliness toward humans. Turns out that those genes were probably linked in wolves too, and we didn't actually mean to give dogs floppy ears or shorter legs or what have you. Oh, and barking. The foxes started barking too. What's fascinating is that the piebald coloration their fur stated acquiring has also been seen in a disproportionate number of domesticated animals. This varied across multiple species, including pigs and cows.
>>43581257
or maybe because of the way breeding works (lots of incest) you usually get lots of unwanted traits together with the wanted ones
>>43581141
Hm, did it fail on account of the breed being too inbred then? Or outside issues like getting enough funding stopping it from being expanded in scale? According to >>43581025
it doesn't seem like they accomplished all that much really, since most the work had already been done. Unless I'm interpreting it incorrectly, of course, which I admit is likely.
>>43580189
No you idiot.
>>43581257
>>43581325
Or those could just be random mutations that got propagated because of the limited gene pool and because they weren't being selected against.
I had a quick look and couldn't even find if they had a control group to compare against.
>>43580093
Foxgirls?
>>43580093
That I should buy my adorable fox pet right now?
![piebald_fox_kit_luz_rovira[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/fT1Tb99.jpg "piebald_fox_kit_luz_rovira[1].jpg")
>>43580595
Wait, what.
English is not my first language, but AFAIK:
Tamed refers to individuals brought to conform to certain etological behaviour towards humans
Domesticated refers to how a species as a whole is bred to show certain characteristics, mainly non-aggressiveness, but might refer to shape, size or say, fecundity or creating more milk/wool/whatever. Domestication is mostly achieved in particular environments that being anthropicized might mean that domesticated species are only able to survive around humans anymore, although not necessarily.
An odd result this research came to was showing how the most tame, meek specimens also started to display neotenic traits such as floppy ears and generally canine-like behaviour. I know that a lot of etological factors are into play as well, but it seems safe to suggest that some of the genes that have to do with aggressiveness also regulate a subspecies' looks. We know domestication for most mammals has lots to do with adrenaline levels, so there might be that.
Look at this Russian domesticated red fox and say it doesn't look like a dog, I dare you.
Remember that from an evolutionary standpoint, this means
>low-adrenaline animals = neotenic traits = stuff we find cute and adorable
Forget about foxes, what does that say about humans?feel free to correct me, I'm not a professional on any level
>>43581338
>Hm, did it fail on account of the breed being too inbred then? Or outside issues like getting enough funding stopping it from being expanded in scale?
The former causing the latter. The population they began the program with turned out to be smaller than necessary, and introducing wild foxes directly would undo much of their process.
Since expanding the breeding population involved effectively doing 75% of the project over again, there were concerns that the most recent generation would be nonviable by the time a suitable second pool could be produced.
In the end it was decided that it would take too much time and money to recover the breed, and the project was not renewed.
>>43581669
>Forget about foxes, what does that say about humans?
That there's a reason humans are often referred to as "domesticated apes"?
>>43581685
And still top of the world, baby!
>>43580093
I think what OP means is that soon we can have fox familiars.
>>43580677
In 5e, liches require a constant influx of souls to sustain themselves, or they turn into demiliches. If a lich wishes to deliberately turn into a demilich and retain the same degree of sapience, it must store souls in crystals, like Acererak.
it might just mean that floppy ears, barks and weird coats are common recessive traits in all Canids and once you you get them inbred enough they start showing those traits more.
Using another group or two that was inbred at random would have helped shed some light whether they are linked with tame behaviour
>>43580093
We can domesticate elves?
>>43581179
It's not the humans who chose the ears. Breeding pairs were chosen based off personality traits
>>43580224
>kekland
>>43581669
It means that a dedicated eugenic program could yield tangible results in a population far more quickly than one might initially presume.
>>43580093
>in just forty generations
The fox reaches maturity in about 10 months.
That's about 40 years.
>>43580093
>forty generations
Do you have ANY idea how many turns that would be in 3.x systems?
>>43581924
Compare that to how long it took to domesticate wolves.
>>43581712
...but we already have the far superior Pipefox?
>>43581989
But it was mainly neolithic furries doing that.
Maybe if we don't wear their skin as a hat and constantly molest them we could do it quicker.
>>43582018
>Maybe if we don't wear their skin as a hat and constantly molest them
It wouldn't have been nearly as fun, then
>>43581712
That cat is majestic as fuck
>>43581993
That's a parental control pet. Sure, it looks cute and cuddly, but pipefox loses its shit whenever smoking, drinking, caressing or flirting happens
>>43581712
That cat looks like it has spellcaster levels.
>>43582485
REEEEEEEEEE
>>43582302
>>43582534
>>43580144
Implying that goblins are broken.
Nyet! Goblins are fine.
>>43580215
You're making dictatorship sound better and better. But in an age of genetics, why not make a nanovirus that re-codes women to spec? Make it contagious enough, and innocuous and slow-acting enough, that nobody notices it until nearly the whole population has been infected?
>>43580359
I had a setting where half-elves were the original race. They had a super magocratic empire that made heavy use of slavery. They created all the demihuman races, each as specialists in different kinds of work.
Naturally,elves were the concubines.
Eventually, humans were invented. Versatile and short-lived, you could just have a huge plantation of human slaves. As economics called for different kinds of labor, you simply train your humans differently. Within 20 years you've got a new generation custom made for your needs.
Naturally, they lead the rebellion. Of the slave races, only the Elves sided with the Half-Elves. They liked their creature comforts and position of high status.
>>43583863
That's adorable!
but now the fox needs a dagger and a leather cloak or something
>>43580224
Fun fact: Sweden did compulsory sterilizations up until 2011.
People like to be like "Sweden is the SJW capital of the world, the white race is doomed" but really it's like a bizarre holdout for pre-WWII racial theories.
>>43580412
>They're all chaotic
>But they universally impose restrictions on actions that might curtain the freedom of others
>Nobody ever decides not to, they all *follow this law*
This is what anarkiddies actually believe.
