Could we talk a bit about Japan and its history? Could someone explain the whole samurai thing to me.
So basically, was it something like this:
Some bureaucrat wrote a book about "man, this is totally what an aristocratic warrior should be like!" and then all the other bureaucrat who swung their swords mostly on their spare time, who had never been in the cold mountains while being chased by the enemy, were like "man, that is so true"
>>43536609
>>>/his/It feels dirty directing history off board.
>>43536640
/his/ is /int/-lite, while /int/ in turn is /pol/-lite. Don't direct anyone there, ever.
>>43536609
I don't know a lot about Japan so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the evolution of the samurai was somewhat parallel to that of European nobility.
>They start off as a warrior class actually doing what they were intended to do
>Modernization and the rise of professional armies reduces them to landowners and administrators for their kings/emperors, while making up myths and legends to justify their existence
>The citizenry rises to prominence and eventually abolishes the nobility
England being a noteworthy exception where the nobility ot this very day wields a lot of political power purely by birth.
So those legends about katanas forded over one mirrion times cutting through sorid steer mostly came after the sengoku jidai, when samurai became increasingly less important and the katana was a status symbol. Back in ye olde days, when they were actually warriors, they preferred the lance and bow with the katana being a side-arm.
That's my understanding of the whole ordeal. If I gave OP false information and acted dishonorabry, please tell me to commit sudoku.
>>43536609
I still find it kind of funny that they were swinging swords around and shit until the end of the edo era, which was 1868ish.
Like, that's only 147 years ago, and they were still playing swords and samurai.
>>43536609
>>43536736
Both of you are pretty much wrong.
It worked like this: originally, around the first large imperial reforms modeled on Chinese models (roughly 6-8th century), Japan established China-like draft army model. However, much like other forms of infrastructure in Japan, the model had a tendency to turn into more specialized, hereditary form: rather than maintaining an unprofessional, draft-based army, the lords prefered to keep a small group of hereditary, professional warrior families around them These would become the Samurai.
From around 10th century to 17th century and establishment of Edo Shogunate, Samurai were just that: professional, hereditary cast of warriors, preoccupied with nothing but warrior and personal bodyguard duty towards their lords.
The Edo shogunate reform did not want to change or abolish samurai cast, but at the same time, they were worried about their Lords gathering power and challenging the central governement, so they basically flooded the lords and their samurai with administrative work. Samurai - while retaining their original lifestyle and culture, were forced to keep on administratory roles as well - and gradually (as there were no wars, really), the administratory role grew more and more important, while the warrior role became more of an aesthetical ideal among the samurai.
Also, Samurai were NEVER landowners and there was no professional army other than them untill the Meiji reforms past 1867. However, every now and then, flooded by their administrative roles, the Samurai felt like they were losing their identity - hence the popularity of the "back to the roots" literature, such as Hagakure and about a THOUSAND other similar books that appeared through out the Edo period.
So formally, Samurai were always the ONLY warrior class in Japan untill modernization in 19th century, though mechanically, they became more and more administrators. Also, they got dirt-poor in the process, but that is another story.
>>43536640
No, fuck that shit. I want to make a samurai character in a historical setting and I'd like to know about the connected culture! There, /tg/.
>>43536609
Here's the thing. After the glorious clusterfuck that was the Sengoku Jidai, there was a massive surplus of skilled and experienced samurai. All of them were nominally what a westerner would call nobles. Very, very few of them were born such, but instead were promoted from professional peasant soldiers called Ashigaru as their leaders died out in the war. Then the clusterfuck ended, and all was good for a moment. The soldiers were needed to enforce the new regime and restore order, and them being technically nobles helped that. But then, the winner's successor decided the west was bad (mostly becuase his rivals grew filthy rich on trade and he was pants-shittingly scared of another giant war) and closed the border. The country was a peace, mostly. It still had a massive surplus of now unneeded 'knights'.
So what did they do? They needed to find employment, as bodyguards, fencing masters, that sort of thing. Many became bandits, but the ones that went 'legit' slowly but surely built up a mystique. Circulated rumours of inhuman prowess and undying loyalty. Fought other 'knights' in nonsensical duels because their next meal hinged on proving they're the superior fighter. That slowly died out, as the 'knights' settled down into schools, minor clans, and mercenary companies. Most of the 'maximum overhonor' literature comes from that time: some deliberate, some a side effect of the overall climate. And with each generation, there were less samurai soldiers and more poseurs, and the mystique was blown further over any sane proportion by 'sword masters' and impressionable youths.
The samurai-bureaucrats and officers are a product of a later age, post-Meiji.
The samurai began really as large bands of warriors/bandits/mercenaries, the Japanese Empire, old aristocracy recruited them to fuel their own petty wars, but over time, they took control and made the military power (shogunate) the most important factual power, the Emperor being still a nice face to have as backup, but that's about it. The same thing happened to the muslims with the Abbassid Caliphate for instance. It was the time of the samurai with bows, and arrows on horseback mainly.
After the mongol wars, they realized massive armies were preferable to a bunch of elite troops conducting most of the fight, so they started to develop the ashigaru corps, samurai were still numerous (about 20-25% of the army) but they were relegated to "elite spear block", kinda like the spartans did, with one block of good soldiers and the rest to hold a line. This saw the explosion of the traditionnal martial arts (koryu) with many prestigeous schools of fighting (Katori Shinto-ryu, Chujo-ryu, Kage-ryu, Nen-ryu). This evolution keeped up until the Edo era, with samurai being just as numerous as before, but the ashigaru being much more numerous. Guns were first used by the samurai, but as soon as they got more, they formed specialized ashigaru corps of gunners. The role of the samurai became less and less important, but they were still a pretty elite warrior class who were really politically and martially savvy, up to many dick moves on and out of the battlefield.
After the pacification of the Edo era, the samurai, basically had pretty much nothing to do. They came back pretty much permanently to their domain and began to focus on administration and landlording (which they already did back then, but to an equal degree to fighting). During the warring periods, a samurai was judged on his farming capability, in mass of rice produced which was a base for how many troops they were to muster. They were both landlords and fighters, but the two functions worked together
>>43536819
>The samurai-bureaucrats and officers are a product of a later age, post-Meiji.
Dude, the fuck is wrong with you. Just admit that you know absolutely nothing about the subject matter.
Samurai gained the administrative/clerk role DURING EDO. That was the fundamental transformation of their cast - they became clerks, working for their clans which were tasted with maintaining the infrastructure and industry of their regions. They had to take on clerk duties because there wasn't much fighting for them to do.
Post Meiji samurai DID NOT FUCKING EXIST as the institution was abolished, and a regular modern draft army was established. It's true that many FORMER samurais became either military officers, or prominent industry leaders, but but they were not samurai any more - they were just "regular" people who had experience in both military regime and administration from their former lives.
Also, the Meiji government was happy to give former samurai high-ranking roles just to keep them from rebelling and complaining about the priviledges they lost with the reforms.
>>43536854
>During the warring periods, a samurai was judged on his farming capability, in mass of rice produced which was a base for how many troops they were to muster. They were both landlords and fighters, but the two functions worked together
The fuck is wrong with you people...
>>43536854
Cont.
During the Edo era, samurai having nothing to do on the war level starting to turn themselves on the cultural aspect much more, while staying as the landlords they were. It's during the 1700's mostly that they started to romanticize their ancestors, that they created the idea of Bushido (instead of Budo), and the idea of the samurai as the epitome of japanese chivalry and loyalty was created (whereas back then, it was pretty much treason and more treason).
So basically, the general samurai idea is largely based on the myths of the Edo era, built by samurai who pretty much were a dying and more and more useless social caste who lost its purpose and who were swallowed by the military and political administration of the Shogunate.
When you look at France and Louis the XIII and XIV, it's not really that far away of an evolution of the nobility and former warring class.
Anyway, the japanese themselves are responsible and guillible of many myths regarding their own culture, forged by people who forgot how to war basically.
That's why the Boshin war is so interesting because well, so much modern and old stuff and things clashing against each other. Y'know, samurais in traditional clothes, but wearing fashionable bowler hats and such.
I really have to find some more reading about japan during the beginnings of 19th century.
>>43536736
Best historical discussions are here anyway
>>43537036
Less than 10 posts in and already two bitches are screaming at each other
>>43537034
>Y'know, samurais in traditional clothes, but wearing fashionable bowler hats and such.
Boshin war was tiny and mostly fought by draft soldiers in modern uniforms, using rifles and modern weapons on both sides. Also, there was like 1500 dead through out the whole war - it was a really small conflict considering the type of warfare and weapons used.
The iconic image, the one popularized by shit movies like The Last Samurai is more fitting the later-date samurai uprisings than the Boshin war, where at several occasions, the real "samurai in full armor with a sword in his hand charging a Maxim machinegun" actually happened at least a few time. The samurai uprisings were more in the line of fashionable mass suicides, while the Boshin war was really about both sides REALLY trying to use every modern asset they could to win.
Hell, the history is really fucking interesting considering that the war started with the CONSERVATIVE, ANTI-WESTERN Imperialists vs. the "progressive, pro-western" Shogunate.
The whole history surrounding the Meiji restoration and the surrounding conflicts, politics and stuff is quite damn fascinating though. My favorite part was the Republic of Ezo: a short lived attempt of the Bafuku to establish a democratic, modern republic on the island of Hokkaido, complete with shit like all-citizen wide (including women) voting rights and stuff.
>>43537188
>Bafuku
*Bakufu, sorry about that.
>>43536609
>>Some bureaucrat wrote a book about "man, this is totally what an aristocratic warrior should be like!"
It was more the case that they were expected to maintain fanatical loyalty and have a ready willingness to die and to kill at a time when there was no call for such things. So they had to be willing to prove themselves, but were punished if they did.
As a result you ended up with scenarios where two lords would have their retainers fight over board games or perceived slights to their honor, then the winner would have to kill himself as an apology. Being a warrior at a time that doesn't need you causes people to go a little crazy.
>>43536817
>they became more and more administrators. Also, they got dirt-poor in the process, but that is another story.
That is not something I can understand.
>>43537332
Was it something that the payment they got was fixed amount stipend or something?
>>43536609
but anon
if /gsg/ or the new /his/ board prove anything it is that history takes a back seat to dank memes
>>43536609
>Could we talk a bit about Japan and its history
No, that would be weeb.
>>43537332
>That is not something I can understand.
It's pretty simple. In order to stabilize and control the income of the Lords, the Shogun ordered that tax can be collected EXCLUSIVELY in naturalia: mostly in rice, sometimes in pure laquer and stuff.
Also, the taxing rates were fixed - the lord could not increase the regular tax on his subjects.
Now, the nobility also had MASSIVE expenditures forced upon them. Maybe you have heard about the bianual rotation thing: every other year (or one out of five years or something like that), EVERY Lord was forced by LAW to move to Edo, and spend a year there, before returing back to his home province. In addition, every Lord had to keep a small PREMANENT residence on the Edo court, where some member of the Lords family (usually a young son or daughter) was living as a court-member (and, let's not forget, as a hostage).
All of this costed money, and movers, craftsman, carriers, everything associated with the moving, traveling and maintaining edo-residence had to be payed in currency - people who were not permanent members of the Lords household would not accept payment in rice.
So the lords had to collect their taxes in naturalia, then sell it to the merchants in Osaka (which was a place where a "grand" rice market existed) to gain cash, so they could pay for all the rotation-releated spendings. That alone was financially draining the lords and insanely feeding the merchants. In addition, price of rice was gradually decreasing over time with the increase of efficiency of agriculture, but the tax rate had to be fixed, which meant further bleeding of the lords.
Now, samurai were technically speaking forbidden from accepting any other payment than a rent from their lord's house. But in reality, in late Edo, the rent (also usually paid in rice) was so low the samurai LITERALLY COULD NOT FEED THEIR FAMILIES, and many of them illegally took on second jobs as farmers or craftsmen just to get by.
"Beggars (kokiji)
Beggars weren’t like ‘modern’ homeless guys. They were like a caste or a guild with a finely-honed craft: they’d dress in super-filthy rags, kimonos ripped to shreds, and put on a performance of being broke. (Silverberg re-tells one story of a Japanese sociologist who saw a beggar change out of his ‘begging clothes’ and into a regular kimono at the end of his ‘shift.’)
Ishizumi (a sociologist) divided the more than one hundred beggars (men and women) into five categories. At the top . . . was a kind of high-level beggar called KENTA. the kenta boss kept strict control over his jurisdiction, wherein almost sixty kenta commuted to five fixed, lucrative sites, such as spots around the Asakusa temple. On the second rung, the TSUBU had a freer bnut more precarious existence, for although they were not subject to the dictates of a boss, neither were they allocated a fixed site for ebegging. At the third level, both the ZUKE – the same word was used to refer to leftovers- and the DAIGARA subsisted on leftover from eateries. The lowest beggars were the SHIROI (a rephrasing of the term HIROI, meaning those who pick up) . . . foraged for the foulest of refuse on which to subsist.”
>>43537359
Pretty much, inflation fucked them hard.
>>43536791
>Like, that's only 147 years ago, and they were still playing swords and samurai.
>1863
>Americans still swinging swords around and shit
>>43537710
>1917
>Russians still swinging swords around and shit
>>43536609
>So basically, was it something like this:
Not really. The general attitude of the period when the Hagakure was written was that Samurai are the class of the sword and the pen and their main functions are to guard and uplift the non-samurai population to a higher level of moralic behaviour. The Hagakure only really gained mass-popularity when printers were looking for warlike material to reprint during WW2. And even then it was pretty much treated like a cowboy novel rather than a how-to-Japanese guide because the ways society worked and the matrix human relationships were envisioned in had changed radically already.
Back then 19th century adventure novels about samurai boys were the most current example of the model of idealized behaviour and I think a lot of their tropes slipped over into boy's adventure manga.
>>43536791
>>43537744
Actually, one of the battles during the Russo-Japanese war of 1905 was decided by a sword duel between a Japanese fencer and a Montenegrin Serb in Russian service.
Supposedly at least, because information about that is scarce outside of Serbian and Russian interwebs.
http://www.moddb.com/groups/serbia-group/images/serb-who-defeated-a-samurai-warrior
![51BC2F0DC17DB1F0F67115316C68E73422FD7EDD[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/0mgCTUk.png "51BC2F0DC17DB1F0F67115316C68E73422FD7EDD[1].png")
>>43538407
Japanese folded steel was no match for pure hatred of Asians forged over numerous centuries to create the greatest genocidal ethnicity of all time.
>talking about shitty japan and not glorious korean superiors
japan ruin our home and split into 2 korea
they deserve bomb
>>43538581
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ttongsul
Reminder that Koreans LITERALLY drink shit.
>>43538407
That's pretty cool. Serb stronk.
>>43536609
>all the half-knowledge in this thread
A Samurai is at the base nothing but Sword-Nobility, the exact definition, role and code of conduct changed over the times, but at the root a Samurai was always someone entitled to own and wield a sword in public.
then you can look at the ranks of Samurai, Kokujin(similar to barons and counts depending on land owned) Daimyo(counts and dukes) and then you have (after the Fujiwara dominion of the imperial court was replaced by military dominion) the shoguns.
But all Samurai have in common that they always serve (or claim to serve) the Emperor. A Samurai without a Master is a Ronin because he is not part of any Clandestine command chain.
>>43538626
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ttongsul
and japan literally turn shit into hamburger
>>43538581
U mad because they wrecked your army so hard China had to invade to get them out?
>m-muh turtle ships
You got fucked in that war
>>43538695
and japan get fucked hard by inability to procreate because of anime girls
korea supreme
>>43538407
Damn I would rightly be called a weeb and all but that's pretty cool...
Cool Moustache to top it off !
>>43538738
And Korean girls need thousands of dollars worth of plastic surgery before anyone will fuck them. What's your point?
>>43539286
At least they won't die off within the next two generations
>>43537036
Best historical discussions are on /a/ whenever Hox comes around.
>>43537710
I´d say pretty much everyone was still swinging swords in 1860s
>>43536736
>/his/ is /int/-lite, while /int/ in turn is /pol/-lite. Don't direct anyone there, ever
Can you explain this? I've been on /his/ for a while and it's actually really damn pleasant when you ask legitimate or good questions.
It's almost like the quality of a board is determinant on how much effort you're willing to put in it, which is to say this question really should be going to /his/.
Honestly, /tg/ just sounds horrified at the prospect of losing their special status as the /his/ board, because they aren't anymore.
The "bad" threads on /his/ are hardly any worse than the thinly veiled fetish threads here. It's damn hypocritical to say one makes the entire board shit while the other's an annoying but cherished aspect of the board.
>>43539899
M-muh don't need other boards anymore, muhfugga!
>>43537595
Twilight Samurai's a good example of this, with Seibei having to do wickerwork to support his family, and its revealed near the end thathe had to sell his katana to pay for his wife's funeral
Yoji Uamada's entire "Samurai Trilogy" is a pretty good portrayal of late Edo samurai life.
>>43540238
heyy whoa, i've only seen Twilight samurai, gotta watch the other films too
>>43539899
>It's almost like the quality of a board is determinant on how much effort you're willing to put in it, which is to say this question really should be going to /his/.
This is the part that frustrates me.
/his/ is a relatively new board, it's going to have growing pains, it's hardly even hit the 1 month mark on existence.
And yet people on a board that long held the title of "/his/ board" are now casually regarding it as a cesspit filled with shitty opinions and shittier people. They're not only making no effort in going there to ask their questions, they're actively spreading the idea that /his/ is terrible and you should never go there.
Is /tg/ really this scared at losing their history threads? If /his/ threads were the thing holding /tg/ together, doesn't that mean /tg/ really needs to take a step back and consider how the rest of the board has been operating, rather than jealously guard things that should go to more relevant boards? Maybe if we lose our /his/ threads people will realize the fetish threads or nth Warhammer thread really *are* shitting up the board.
>>43536609
The first thing to know is tropes of the Honorabre Samurai Warrior wierding his brade of grorious Nippon steer are largely myths, propagated by period stories, 50s movies, and modern weaboos taking those myths and movies at face value.
They were typically landed nobility, usually serving some lord or daimyo. They were typically sworn to some one or another and were expected to fight when their Nobre Rord demanded, making them vaguely analogous to European Knights.
Katanas were part of their arsenal, but they were for the most part mounted fighters and preferred spears and bows.
Something interesting I learned when I took a class on Japanese history (inb4 weaboo) is, while norms and behaviors changed with the centuries, they overall tended to act more like modern day biker gangs than anything else. A lot of times they were pretty thuggish, with a tendency to start bar fights and cause trouble wherever they showed up. Innkeepers and other establishment owners usually hated being forced to entertain them because they were often very rowdy and violent, and the nature of sworn oaths and the like meant a bar fight could escalate into a big political debacle with the peasantry caught in the middle. A lot of them were also really immature and had predilections for low-brow comedy (like dick and fart jokes, of which there were plenty in Japan because Japan's always been weird).
>>43540357
>A lot of them were also really immature and had predilections for low-brow comedy (like dick and fart jokes, of which there were plenty in Japan because Japan's always been weird).
The oldest recorded joke we got is most likely about vagina farts, Anon.
>>43540490
In world history? Or Japanese history?
Because if world history I'm pretty sure Rome has that joke, with a reference to a weak man getting it up the butt.
>>43540357
>Something interesting I learned when I took a class on Japanese history (inb4 weaboo) is, while norms and behaviors changed with the centuries, they overall tended to act more like modern day biker gangs than anything else. A lot of times they were pretty thuggish, with a tendency to start bar fights and cause trouble wherever they showed up. Innkeepers and other establishment owners usually hated being forced to entertain them because they were often very rowdy and violent, and the nature of sworn oaths and the like meant a bar fight could escalate into a big political debacle with the peasantry caught in the middle. A lot of them were also really immature and had predilections for low-brow comedy (like dick and fart jokes, of which there were plenty in Japan because Japan's always been weird).
That is way cooler than "honorable monk warrior"
>>43540624
God, isn't it?
Theater owners also hated them, because they had a tendency to be really loud, throw shit at the actors, and threaten characters they didn't like.
>>43539899
/his/ is pretty legit but it's also an easy target for trolls, /pol/lacks or meme-spouters to join in. Some anons there provide some good insight and making very good discussions there but not without bias and unnecessary rage pent up by others trying to prove or disprove their views. serious ones are surprisingly patient about it.
>>43540654
>throw shit
As in literal shit?
>>43541406
I honestly don't know.
>>43541406
>>43541433
Nah, but theather performances in Japan were basically jazz performances in bars.
The actors performed and the audience did whatever the fuck they came to do. Mostly talking, drinking and gambling.
It's probably better to envision it as a life MST3K at a bar with the people that pay attention just waiting for that one scene that's fucking hilarious in order to ask for an encore.
>>43536609
>>43540509
I think the one he's talking about is Sumerian.
>>43540624
>monk warrior
>honourable
>>43542219
I don't like arguing semantics but "honorable" is a pretty relative term, especially when we're talking about samurai. Their interpretation of honor was so bizarre it would have baffled the goddamn Klingons half the time.
>>43540624
When Zen Buddhism got really popular there was this cultural expectation that samurai should start acting like that.
Some of them did, most of them just said they would then went back to laughing at dick jokes and terrorizing peasants.
>>43542219
>implying the big K isn't honorabu
swords n' spears nigga
>>43542296
I'm actually referring to Nobunaga's razing of monastaries that housed warrior monks who attacked the Oda clan.
Sohei were effectively bandits who used holy ground for their hideout.
>>43542722
>Sohei were effectively bandits who used holy ground for their hideout.
...I don't think that holy ground is going to do shit against a class that defined itself by their ability to scoff at such taboos. You're also doing history a disfavour as Sohei were everything from shrine- or temple-associatives defending their livelyhood by force of arms to the troops of sect leaders to legit milita formations of legit feudal political players. Even bandits that turned mountain temples into fortresses could end up being called sohei.
This thread was moved to >>>/his/173865
