>HHG FAQ - http://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
>Official HH 7th Edition Errata (Updated January 2016) - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Horus_Heresy/Horus_Heresy_7th_Edition.pdf
>HHG RULES
>- https://mega.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ!EVh0GZZS
>- http://www.mediafire.com/download/deadtdf0y47k59k/The+Horus+Heresy+Legiones+Astartes+Isstvan+Campaign.pdf
>- https://kat.cr/usearch/%22Forge%20World%22%20heresy%20user:epistolary/
>Xenos in 30K Homebrew - https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Xenos_in_30k
>HH Black Library
>- https://mega.nz/#F!0RlxDZQC!qAu9BaubWa3KeihJRmOcsg
Have you ever run or are planning on running a 30k Campaign? How was it like? How do you plan on running it?
>>44780948
This really is a general now isn't it? I remember when 30k threads were a very rare occasion, usually around the time each book came out as people screamed for scans. I don't know what to make of this.
>>44781001
Well with FW releasing new stuff every week or having an event every couple months they're keeping their player base excited.
And for better or worse, BaC has really given HH a ton of new blood.
>>44781086
I find the threads are more 'Rate my list, I need help', when in the older ones it was more fluff and crunch discussion. I kind of miss the fluff discussion we got when Extermination was released and the IW Decimation/AL Sociopaths things came up, or the way the Ultras were shown in Tempest. It's very repetitive having endless 'rate my list' and nothing else. We don't even have battle reports or 'my armies fluff' discussions anymore.
Which is why the 30k Campaign headline above is a good thing. Campaigns are a way to get above endless listbuilding and actually play narrative games, which is the main draw of 30k, is the narrative and not powergaming. I play Sons of Horus, with a full squad of 10 Justaerin. Not an army made to ever win, but one which has a strong theme and is fun to field even if I rarely ever win a battle.
>>44781168
With Retribution a few weeks out I'm sure we'll be getting more rules discussions shortly after its release.
In the meantime, we'll just have to weather the "rate my lists" posts. BaC really reset the meta and as a result the /hhg/ is going through a transitionary period as well.
I don't think it's all "rate my lists" though. As long as the old timers can stand the newcomers and don't fill half the board with 'back in my day' posts or "XENOS ARE BAD!!" posts. Conversely the newcomers don't ask redundant questions that can be easily answered either in the FAQ or reading the actual books I think we can have some decent, for /tg/, discussions.
>>44780948
>Have you ever run or are planning on running a 30k Campaign? How was it like? How do you plan on running it
Yeah. I've been slowly drafting one with a companion errata too. It uses the basics from book 4 with some streamlined tweaks. We're going for a more cinematic approach.
6 locations with different assets
>Spaceport is spaceport
>PDF base is macro weapon
>polar station is hidden armoury
>etc
Each location has a battlefield type(master of field can change it)
>Polar ice station is frozen wastes
>capital city is hab block
>outskirts are broken ruinscape
>etc
6 different mission depending on location
>Space port is zone mort
>Moon surface station is Zone mort, blood in the void
>Capital city is city fight missions
>derelict pdf base is strategic raid
>outskirts are maelstrom
>PDF base is 30k core mission
>etc
Attack and defend, can freely choose any objective.
The first roll upon character creation can be chosen instead of rolled for.
Pre-existing characters don't use up the campaign character slot(s) but don't qualify for advances if they created a character.
Alternatively if a team has fewer objective points the attacker can instead do a planetstrike mission.
One final apoc game at the end for fun or as a tie-breaker.
>>44780948
Starting in May, I'm planning on running a Conquest Campaign out of Book IV. So far my local group has just been doing one off games as everyone is trying to get their armies fully painted.
I don't know if I should do a slow grow campaign or just start out with games at 2000 points and go up from there. Everyone has about 5k points worth of stuff, just not fully painted. I'm wary of a slow grow because it might really kill off our drive if players are restricted to what they can take.
This isn't 100% /HHG/ but it's sort of related and the /40kG/ thread died before anyone thought to remake it so here goes. Apologies in advance for bringing 40k into the 30k thread sirs.
I'm thinking of including some tactical squad 30k power armor in a skitarii list, representing marines on loan (from some chapter too small/insignificant to fight without allies) and equipped with some truly ancient sets of power armor.
Now I've looked around for some archaic 30k and earlier power armor models but I'm coming up a bit short, ideally I'd like some Mark II through to Mark VI bits to kitbash with and make some really jury rigged looking marines, slathered in Adeptus Mechanicus skulls and cogs to show they come from Cult Mechanicus tech vaults.
Have already seen some stuff I'm considering from ForgeWorld and non-GW model retailers, but where else can you source most of your HH and earlier power armor from /HHG/?
>>44781444
You can try Scibor or Spellcrow if you're not picky that it's not FW/GW. Otherwise other than Forge World there are recasters or eBay stores that sell recasts.
Don't ask about recaster info here.
>>44781444
Pick up a Betrayal at Calth box if you don't mind MkIV. You can trade/sell of the bits you don't need.
>>44781168
>It's very repetitive having endless 'rate my list' and nothing else.
I blame the constant primarchfagging threads for killing lore discussion.
>>44781168
>I find the threads are more 'Rate my list, I need help', when in the older ones it was more fluff and crunch discussion
I don't know, list discussions aren't so bad as long as they lead into an actual discussion. Often a list is one of the best ways to kickstart a discussion about the rules and fluff for a particular legion as different people make different contributions towards what they think would be a good list for that legion. It only gets shitty when everyone is just spamming their own list without engaging with those posted before, and I haven't seen that in these threads yet.
>>44781168
how do I make more interesting fluff for my 30k company?
at the moment it's just "this is the 48th armoured spearhead detachment of the imperial fists, they like tanks and beating up iron warriors, but for my 40k imperium forces I've managed to build up an entire sub sector worth of stuff
>>44781444
finally an excuse to post this pair
also for parts you could buy a pack of tiny watch gears on ebay, they make cool shoulder pad icons and shields
anon in the old thread was correct that the MKIII iron hands would be your best starting point
>>44781734
find some personal heraldy or color scheme variation that you like to mix it up. Remember that despite being organized into legions, various chapters of the space marines had their own idiosyncrasies and colors that they liked to use.
you can also fluff them as a chapter that was long out of touch with the greater bulk of the legion, since it was actually pretty rare for an entire legion to fight as a single coherent unit.
>>44781734
>how do I make more interesting fluff for my 30k company?
>at the moment it's just "this is the 48th armoured spearhead detachment of the imperial fists, they like tanks and beating up iron warriors, but for my 40k imperium forces I've managed to build up an entire sub sector worth of stuff
The Imperial Fists are one of the easiest in that regard, because they recruited more widely then any other Legion save perhaps the Ultras, and in large part from among those they defeated. So the 48th may have come from a culture steamrolled by the Fists in the Crusade that specialized in vehicles (Hell, I could see them worshipping vehicles like in Mad Max: Fury Road), so they bring something of that culture with them.
>>44781958
>>44781585
Holy shit this. It's like no one ever takes the moderate approach with this lore and thinks, "Hmm...that's a weird thing being described in a sentence. I wonder what circumstances brought that about." Rather than the constant, "It's stupid because stupid writers just want edge and grimdark!"With an exception for Horus's fall to chaos. That one was the result of believing the series would only be 3-7 books long
>>44781734
Have you read the style of write ups for all the FW HH forces? What expedition fleet were they a part of? Were they fleet-based or did they have a fortress world that they operated out of? Who did they fight during the Great Crusade? Are they a newly raised force? If so, where were the raised from? The Imperial Fists recruited all over the place, not just Terra and Inwit. If not, how long have they been operating? Do they have a large number of Terrans? Are there any moments, either on or off the battle that they're particularly proud of? Particularly ashamed of?
From there you add to the individual units of your army. Who's the commanding officer? Why was he selected for command? Was he raised through the company itself or assigned it from elsewhere? What noteworthy vehicles are in the detachment? Have they always been there? Have any of your forces served alongside other legions prior to the Heresy? Was it positive or negative?
There's always tons and tons of ways to add interesting personality to a legion company.
>>44781958
>recruited more widely then any other Legion save perhaps the Ultras
I'd throw the World Eaters up there as well.
>>44782108
The WE integrated themselves into the overall legion culture more. Whereas the Fists had whole companies and battalions who spoke different languages and operated differently.
>>44782147
>spoke different languages and operated differently
>>44782147
I mean by that logic, the Ultramarines integrated quite exceptionally as well.
>>44782259
Read >>44781980
>>44782108
WE recruited from the Urals, Fists recruited from the entire Earth. Imperial Fists are the official multicultural legion.
>>44782312
We're not talking about Terrans. We're talking about all of the other planets they recruited from during the Great Crusade. After the primarchs were found, the majority of Terran recruits dried up (although not entirely, as explained in Scars).
sup /30k/, I have some questions.
Did the ultramarines ever fight side by side with the raven guard during the Horus Heresy?
The reason I am asking is because I started a Raven Guard army, but in order to play them in 40k, I took 20 of them, magnetized their shoulderpads to be able to swap between Ultramarines and Raven Guard (In 40k I use them as a small Tiggy Drop Pod list as black ultramarines in mk6 isn't as unfluffy)
In order to store the spare shoulders though, i leave them on the base, as their bases are also highly magnetic with a matching polarity.
I was originally fluffing my Raven Guard as Isstvaan 5 survivors, but then 20 of my tacticals would have Ultramarine shoulder pads at their feet, and I want to be as fluff-accurate as possible.
So
- Would there be any reason to have Ultramarine shoulder pads on Isstvan 5?
- Was there any recorded battle in the heresy that involved both the Raven Guard and the Ultramarines?
- Were there any Ultramarine chapter/company color schemes that were black-based and/or wore mk6?
Thanks /tg/ in advance!
>>44782369
I'll make this simple.
Between the time of the War of Unification and the end of the Horus Heresy. Some element of every single legion fought both alongside and against some element of every other legion for one of a hundred different reasons. This is not saying that primarchs fought alongside one another, only that some marines, somewhere, did so. Point being, if you want those particular marines to be your marines, then it is completely lore-approved to do so.
>>44782282
>Over time such sub-cultures often broke down, but some endured for decades
It depends on how much of a special snowflake you want your dudes to be, but it seems Dorn's way would be the norm.
>>44782369
>I started a Raven Guard army
I'm terribly sorry to hear that. Hopefully in the future you'll get to play something not completely shit.
>>44782445
The thing is I want to build my marines after a specific battle, not the concept of one, and I want to build my 6'x8" board after said battle.
Is there a specific battle that would work?
Were there any UM on Isstvan 5?
>>44782475
The Legion was always very divided, especially with garrison forces left on certain planets, so I can well see certain cultures enduring for decades in those fragments of the legion that serve independently away from Dorn and the main legion command.
>>44782369
Basically what >>44782445 said, and this should have some extra rules coverage in the next book with the inclusion of rules for "shattered legions" (i.e., the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard that made it out of Isstvan V and either found their way to other loyalists or banded together to form guerrilla companies).
>>44782499
This isn't the 40k general. Raven Guard is actually pretty decent in HH.
>>44782520
>Were there any UM on Isstvan 5?
No.
>>44782520
>Were there any UM on Isstvan 5?
No.
>>44782520
>Is there a specific battle that would work?
No, unless you make it during the scouring.
Seriously just make up your RG dudes fighting alongside a small detachment of UM that got stuck in Deliverance when shit hit the fan.
>>44782369
Say that squad was attached to the main Raven contingent. Sometimes Primarchs or other high ranking officers would "gift" honour guards or stuff like that. There is an excerpt on the Emperor's Children about them fighting alongside Blood Angels, and some dudes were decorated by them and subsequently added a blood drop to their EC heraldry. Fluff out yer dudes!
That magnetized shoulders idea is quite clever
>>44782475
There's also Sigismund's way and I wouldnt be surprised if other Captains had molded their companies in their own image. Like if Fafnir Rann is a captain during the HH there could be his company being the more bloody IF that are always doing trench warfare and jumping into the breach to rip and tear.
>>44782520
Then I'm afraid the answer is no on both accounts. Though I'm not entirely sure what you mean about "the concept of one." My point was that you could design a full Great Crusade battle backstory that involved the two fighting alongside one another, and you'd be fairly hard-pressed to make it non-lore worthy. The HH is super flexible like that, in some ways even moreso than 40k.
>>44781544
Looking at Scibor and Spellcrow now cheers. Ebay can wait until tomorrow and I'd rather consider other options before resorting to recasters. Thanks.
>>44781582
Checking this out too, seems a little pricey for one unit of tactical marines but useful nonetheless if I decide I'd really like some MkIV. Danke.
>>44781734
Good shout about the watch gears, I was kind of dreading having to freehand paint that many symmetrical skulls/gears haha. Will probably use the MKIII Iron hands heads and torsos as starting points and convert from there.
Thank you /HHG/ this place is magical, compared to /40kG/ which is sometimes a bit of a shitshow if I'm honest.
>>44782593
I think he just wants to be able to open up a book and point to it and say, "See, my Ultramarines were there."
So, unfortunately, that won't work with the way he's laid out his army.
>>44782615
No problem Anon. Regarding the BaC box, GW most likely will eventually release the contents in stand alone boxes, so if you're not in a hurry you can just wait for the MkIV tacticals to become available.
Also /hhg/ has it's moments of shit, but some people try hard to make sure that doesn't happen. When it does though, the guilty parties will be ignored.
>>44782544
They wouldn't be fighting alongside them, just kinda stepping over their shoulderpads. Had any UM ever been on Isstvan 5?
I guess I'll just tweak my storage box and keep the soulderpads in there, not attached to the bases then, since it doesn't seem like it would be fluffy.
>>44782593
Basically I want to say 'These Raven guard are the 14th Company, fighting on the planet of XXX' and if someone googles that, a wiki page should turn up.
>>44782569
>>44782544
I know it did happen with squads being attached, but so that I can set precedent, can you list an exampleor 20?
>>44782369
>Were there any Ultramarine chapter/company color schemes that were black-based and/or wore mk6?
All Destroyer squads wear black. About Mk6, say they switched to it by hanging around the Ravens for so long, eventually getting their armour repaired by Raven Techmarines.
>>44782628
not 'my' ultramarines.
Some ultramarines.
This whole fluff discussion is because I want to store magnetic shoulderpads on bases as decoration instead of on a sectioned off part of their case, and still have it be 103% accurate
>>44782678
>>44782678
>can you list an example
Sigismund spent years with the World Eaters, if a single captain can be exchanged then so can a single squad.
>>44782678
We're trying to show you that a lot of stuff in the HH doesn't need precedence like in 40k. The lore isn't written with so many absolutes. It's written with way more purposefully vague points, like how legions were all spread across many detachments, worked alongside one another, and wiped out literally thousands of species. Where those legions were, who they fought with, and who they fought against are all designed to be anything you want and still fit lore.
>>44782664
I would hope the cataphractii get update with left arms that can take power weapons and the other special weapons. Maybe some combi-bits, which shouldn't be a problem seeing that their bolters come in two pieces.
>>44782752
>>44782744
So they could be part of an attached squad as reasons to why their broken armor parts are on the ground.
I guess that's what I'm going to go with.
I assume an attached squad would paint their Ultramarine logos differently to signify their attachment, would white lettering, gold/brass rim (it's all mk3 shoulderpads for the UM, as they are the most ornate) and black background be the most obvious solution?
>>44782701
Is there a chapter or company, not destroyers? I only fully magnetized the sarges and magnetized the guns on 4 of these guys (for 40k usage, where no-one really gives a shit) and that means that these guys are fairly clearly tacticals. I don't forsee using these guys in 30k as UM, but I'd like to know if it is possible.
>>44782867
I wouldn't count on it. Those plastic sprues are expensive and retooling them wouldn't be a simple task. Besides, they already sell resin cataphractii that accept the special weapons.
>>44782833
I'd say that 30k needs more prescedence than 40k. No one in my 40k group bats an eye when my Stompa is a giant stone idol, or when my friends Stormsurge is a heavily modified Metal Gear REX. It comes partially from 40k being a parody of itself I suppose.
>>44782890
>I assume an attached squad would paint their Ultramarine logos differently to signify their attachment, would white lettering, gold/brass rim (it's all mk3 shoulderpads for the UM, as they are the most ornate) and black background be the most obvious solution?
Honestly, 9/10 whatever reason you come up with will work. I doubt anyone in the 30k community will be so anal. And if they are, back away slowly.
>>44782906
They did it for the regular marine weapons though when they became plastic.
>>44782890
>I assume an attached squad would paint their Ultramarine logos differently to signify their attachment, would white lettering, gold/brass rim (it's all mk3 shoulderpads for the UM, as they are the most ornate) and black background be the most obvious solution?
Sure. If you want. The legions really weren't standardized in terms of colors and honors and even then they would have hundreds of approved variations, chapter-specific schemes, and personal heraldries. You can really get away with a shit ton of variation when it comes to color schemes in HH.
>>44781168
I love fluff discussions but too many of them devolved into comparisons between Dorn and bricks, or claiming that Lion was autistic, or that Lorgar did NOTHING WRONG. The quality of BL fluff is part of the issue, many people would rather talk about bullshit or not at all, than argue about BL fluff.Some of it was actually funny the first time, but the "first time" for most people was a long, long time ago, and new shitposters don't realize that.
Expect this aspect to improve when Book 6 comes out in a month, really it's new Forge World fluff that feeds it and it's the fact that it's been so long since Book 5 that's resulted in the nadir of fluff discussion.
>>44782945
Less precedent and more creativity when it comes to the reasons why your army is the way it is. Most 30k players aren't bothered by your army if you're able to come up with a narrative reason why your army is the way it is. It's people who don't give a crap about the narrative and just throw down random crap that tick off 30k players.
>>44783015
>or that Lorgar did NOTHING WRONG
That's a funny way to spell Magnus.
>>44783015
>Book 6
I cant wait, I want to make my own Knight Errant as I already made a model. Duke "The Nuke" shall live!.
>>44782945
And why would those things not work in 30k? Those are both xenos. The former is orks, and I'd hope you wouldn't think that all Stompas look like the pictures. And the second was a particular advanced humanoid race that would be wiped out before the end of the Great Crusade. Xenos do weird shit. There were xenos during the Great Crusade that had 100 km long translucent ships in the shapes of hourglasses.
>>44782968
>I doubt anyone in the 30k community will be so anal. And if they are, back away slowly.
I want it to be the other way around. I want to be impressively accurrate. Anyways, this is my first non-ork army, so I actually want to name my characters and give them backgrounds besides lazy stuff like a Warboss named Kaptin Krunch and practically everyone else being 'Some fucking boyz in this green tide'.
>>44782978
Well, at least I know I can prime black all at once for maximum laziness.
>>44782906
>Those plastic sprues are expensive
GW has had their own machinery for a while now. That's why metal and resin is a thing of the past and everything's getting made in plastic.
>Besides, they already sell resin cataphractii that accept the special weapons.
Sure, but if you already got the plastic terminators, why can't you get power weapons for them, instead of first buying a whole set of resin cataphractii and then power weapons for them?
Personally I wouldn't even count on the BaC box getting separated into individual sets. For example the tactical kit doesn't make much sense in 30k nor 40k. For 40k you already have a tactical marine box and for 30k the kit comes with a whole let of stuff you can't use, since tacticals can't take heavy nor special weapons.
If they were to make 30k plastic kits, they'd need to retool them into a plain tactical box with 10 dudes, then make maybe 5 man support and heavy support squads with heavy and special weapons.
>>44783095
>want it to be the other way around. I want to be impressively accurrate
That's all well and good, but it seemed like you were letting the fluff keep you from actually building an army. If that's not the case, keep on doing what you do.
>>44782890
Well, destroyers were tacticals before, and the 22nd chapted had many of those. As for why those ultras would wear black, sometimes Rogue trader would publish alternate colour patterns, but I don't remember any black color for night operations or something.
>>44783095
>a Warboss named Kaptin Krunch
You made me choke on my food. Rule of thumb would be to take any cool looking "count as" as LEGAL. Hell, the Imperial Militia is entirely based on that concept.
But regarding your desire of being able to quote "Look, it's them!", I really doubt the Ultras shared some RECORDED ground with the Ravens.
Still, there were so much marines and enough FW ambiguity that no one would ever object your reasons.
>>44783074
I guess those were bad examples. Basically, my group has a lot of deliberately silly stuff in it for 40k, but for 30k we are all toning up the pseudo-historical aspect, instead of being silly 24/7. No stuff like a Crisis Commander modeled to look like a ninja doing karate, or 2 boyz riding on each-other's shoulders being a nob, or a Daemon army based entirely on bad puns (Corn Dogs, Blood Letters, Great Unclean "1's").
>>44783124
This never had anything to do with my army itself. This was all about whether or not the basing decorations on my models would be fluff-accurate, or if I should store my spare UM pads separately.
>>44783095
Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like you're jumping from one extreme to the other. From the "40k is all a silly parody! Everything is canon! Lol!" to "It must be exactly as described and any deviation never existed!" Not that this has been your behavior. With the HH, it's the effort that matters, less so the specifics. Treat the setting as something living and real. 'Variation, subjectivity, and shades of grey' as ADB is fond of saying about the HH.
>>44783263
>shades of grey
Fifty of them?
>>44783251
Ah, I see. I'm kinda glad me and my group never treated 40k as a parody. I can't imagine trying to recover a group that was used to that kind of stuff.
>>44782369
>Would there be any reason to have Ultramarine shoulder pads on Isstvan 5?
No significant forces, however, occasionally legions seconded specific units to other legions (for a number of reasons). For example, if there was a battle where two Expeditionary Fleets from two different legions fought together during a specific compliance campaign, but one pretty much ran out of apothecaries, a couple might be seconded from the other legion on a temporary basis. This would also often happen when (for example) new vehicles that one legion field-tested, were then mass-deployed; skilled pilots would sometimes be seconded temporarily to lead and train pilots in the legions where the gear was completely new. Most Primarchs were also curious about novel tactics and formations and, for those on good terms, might request secondment from another legion for them to learn from.
However, it's not recorded as having happened in the specific case of Isstvan, Isstvan V was not an incidental battle but a very deliberate campaign where the the involved Primarchs hand-picked their forces from their very best units. It's not impossible but you could probably count the number of Ultramarine shoulderpads on Isstvan V on your fingers even assuming that it's more than zero, and even that will trigger a lot of people's berserk buttons. Be very careful with your fluff-justification if you're going to suggest it, but with enough care you may be able to pull it off.
>>44783422
So would it be
>The Xth company of the XXXth chapter of ultramarines assigned 1 tactical squad to the raven guard to attempt to learn from and observe the RG mor Deythan/Dark Furies to improve the Ultramarine tactica on decapitation strikes to kill ork warlords/bosses with greater efficiency, and with it, less loss of lives and materiel.
>>44783989
Make it the 22nd chapter and you'll be able to sort of quote HH5 p.95 about them using unconventional weapons and tactics and being away from Calth (doesn't say away where)
>>44784067
That image is helpful, but not really accurate.
It says they were on calth, but in the boonies somewhere.
The notes on forearm markings mean that there is some squad that was likely seconded to the RG at one point to learn/teach, but the 22nd was not that squad during the HH (they were likely seconded at some point before the HH though)
If anyone knows a specific chapter (or any numbers that would make them more 'specialists' (seekers I suppose?) that would be appreciated.
So gentlemen, tell me whats the soundtrack of your force
If I had Iron Warriors it'd be this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL8481TuVWE
But my Imperial Fist veteran cadre rocks this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgKelxYG5cg
On the topic of what was and what wasn't on Isstvan, was there any Mechanicum? Loyalists? Traitors?
Where is the info for using Codex:Chaos Daemons in Age of Darkness battles?
I've checked all the valid books and there's nothing on using them except the Word Bearers rules section and special character daemons on FWs site.
>>44784720
There were Dark Mechanoicum forces that helped construct the defences there. On the loyalist side there were the Cybernetica Cohorts bound to the Iron Hands Legion and those bound to the Legio Atarus Titans.
>>44784770
Isn't that all there is, so far? We're still pretty early into the Heresy, full-blown demon armies are probably a few books away.
>>44784770
Thats all there is anon, you can use the daemon codex as per the special characters pdf, just use the AoD FOC and the guidelines and you're golden.
>>44785088
>>44785115
Then it seems that's all there is to it for now.
Hopefully they get something in book 6 if Signus is in there.
>>44784720
The main loyalist AdMech presence on Istvaan III was Calleb Decima of the Ordo Reductor. About Istvaan V, it would be bonded elements and the titans, including Dies Irae.
>>44785382
Dies Irae was chaos, tho
>>44785406
These guys then.
Dear /hhg/, thanks for telling me Betrayer was a good book. It was an enjoyable read.
>>44785453
Yup. Legio Atarus vs Legio Mortis
>>44784720
I was under the impression that Mechanicum and Custodes were forbidden from going onto Isstvan as it was "Adeptus Astartes business. Brother on Brother" thing that had to be sorted out this way.
It was mentioned in The First Heretic or Betrayer.
>>44785586
Given they knew the Traitors had Titans, going without heavy Anti-Titan support weapons would have fucked them. Same with the heavy artillery of the Imperial Army forces.
>>44785605
Did the Traitors actually put Titans on Isstvan?
I thought the entire thing was just Fulgrim, Angron, Mortarion and Horus fucking around with their respective legion and drawing in the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders (who thought they would be supported by the other traitor legions). I didn't think Titans were involved.
>>44785684
Most of the Titans they had with them on Isstvan III from the Legio Mortis were also on Isstvan V as well.
>>44785684
They were, along with imperial army elements
I sometimes wonder after reading these threads if the people ever read the fluff in the FW Books on the various battles, as opposed to the Legion Histories and the rules.
>>44785779
>Assuming people read anything in Warhammer games.
>>44785990
>>44785990
>not reading FW HH books cover to cover
It's your loss.
Thoughts for how to fluff and paint a loyalist Cybernetica cohort? It seems like there's almost no fluff for loyalist Mechanicum forces. Draykavac and Satarael both have cool Taghmatas with sweet paint schemes (pic related) but it seems like the loyalists have very little outside of stuff bonded to the Legions. There's some pictures from the small force sent to Calth in book 5 but holy fuck are those ones hideous.
Like, shit, man, until loyalists get a cool character that's actually good (fuck Caleb) it seems like I might as well just paint it up like the traitors.
>>44783034
Is there anyone who didn't do anything wrong among the primarchs? They all seem to have some kinda fuckup at some point.
I guess Vulcan might be okay,
>>44784701
I guess my Space Wolves would go with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4fQMR0R9ts
Anyone have the gentlemen of the imperial guard pic?
>>44782499
>RG bad
>In 30k
my sides
I was thinking of starting an Iron Warriors army as they're my favourite of the First Founding Legions, but their rules seem kinda meh for the most part.
Am I looking into something wrong or are they just crap?
![Vulkan_Dropsite_Massacre[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/sGWyzzS.jpg "Vulkan_Dropsite_Massacre[1].jpg")
>>44784701
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rHdyofwVlQ
>>44787577
Their baseline power level isn't as high as say IH. They're not bad though. Not taking morale from shooting is very tech in the world without ATSKNF.
>>44787634
If IH are high tier and IW are mid, where do the Alpha Legion fall?
>>44787675
That information is classified.
>>44787675
Betweenmiddle and high. They have good potential but are more difficult to bring it out. They aren't as ded-killy as RG or as flashy tactical as UM/EC but somewhere inbetween.
That being said, player skill is a huge factor in 30k with very few copypaste lists. It's not like 40k where you can plug and play overtly powerful formations and units. So a legion could be mid or even low, but a competent player can still rock house.
>>44787725
So if FW ever introduced formations into 30k it would break the meta like a twig?
>>44787759
Honestly Rites of war are basically Formations
>>44787759
Not that its likely to happen, but yes. A core aspect of 30k is keeping the force organizing tame.
It's likely that shattered legions will have a 'build your own' rite/strike force type option and pseudo-formations but knowing FW they will have give and take. I suspect that's why, or part of why, shattered got pushed back.
>>44787766
They're more like the strike forces that came right before the necron decurion. A modified FOC with additional rules.
There's a whole lot of transfer sheets on FW, along with some bundles.
>>44787958
At least they learned units come in multiples of 5. Man the RG sheet is so annoying with only having unit symbols in groups of FOUR.
FOUR
WHY
But damn that DG sheet is great.
>>44787993
Representing the Raven Guard's losses at Isstvan?
>>44787759
>So if FW ever introduced formations into 30k it would break the meta like a twig?
They're not going to and have said as much, so don't worry about it. Age of Darkness is played using Age of Darkness Force Organization Charts and Age of Darkness missions. No unbound, no battleforged armies, no mix-and-match your detachments, and no formations.
>>44787993
Maybe because of studded shoulders? But I didn't notice on mine, maybe too busy trying to work out how to make 2 20-man squads with 20 of 1 Tac icon colour, and 10 each of the other 2 colours...
>>44788031
The symbols are great, but that third color is to blame. I dont know where that copperbronze came from. That its metallic makes it worse.
As for studded pads, the symbol just goes on their shin instead.
Seriously though. Groups of 4? Also there's not nearly enough plain white ravens and I will never need that many elites if i buy a second sheet.
Here is a question: if they changed army builds to a % based one, would you be ok with that? 0-25% HQ, 0-25% Fast Attack, 25+% troops, etc
>>44788491
0-25% elite and giving us 4 slots is weird.
>>44783121
I know it's a bit late to reply, but I want to point out that the plastic tactical squad from BaC is the Veteran tactical squad. Which can take special and heavy weapons. It just conveniently would also make a regular tactical squad.
>>44788711
You have a point there.
Quite frankly, the cataphractii don't need to be recut, just make an extra sprue with the missing pieces. Plasma blaster, reaper AC, some combi-parts to replace the left side of the gun, and left arms with separate hand and some power weapons.
Contemptor will most likely need to be remade, the model as is isn't very great. Feels more like those starter kit snap fit ones in detail.
>>44788578
Percentage system doesn't use slots. You can have, for example, as many HQs as you like, as long as their point cost doesn't exceed 25% of your total.
>>44789109
Yeah, it's obvious they don't intend for that contemptor to be the actual one. They probably just didn't want to sink more money into that box, especially since any other weapons would need rules for the game.
>>44789147
I would be okay with it if assault were better priced.
I assume that in this case RoW would change those %? Like décapitation strike reduce the % allowed for heavy support ?
>>44786673
Well since Mars went to chaos the only loyalist mech would be rogue forge worlds whose loyalty was more to a loyal legion or was always antiMars whatever the policies
Maybe with calth we will see more loyalists
>>44786780
Vulcan has issues with eldar - cf that novella promethean sun where he ok'd firebombing an inhabited planet
>>44790441
The fact that the Emperor approved of this makes me feel disgusted.
>>44790450
>>44790450
Lots of planets were nuked for far less
That custodes in first heretic seemed to think killing the Cadians for having purple eyes would be OK
This despite davinite obvious mutants being allowed to live
>>44790517
Wasn't Cadia purged at some point and then recolonized with people who are the current populations?
>>44790441
To be fair, Eldars are capricious assholes.
>>44786673
Read the book mechanicum their were a few loyalist on Mars.
>>44790551
What does /HHG/ think of my 2500pts Sons of Horus list? I'm thinking about fluffing the Praetor as Tybalt Marr, Verulam Moy's surviving brother. For those who don't know, Tybalt Marr and Verulam Moy were two captains who looked and acted so alike as to be identical. It was rumoured that the two were actual genetic brothers. Just before the Heresy, Moy was killed by a Nurgle-corrupted ship captain, and I was always interested in what happened to Marr afterwards. Dunno whether I'll run them as Traitor forces, with Marr throwing his lot in with Horus, or if he'd do a runner after seeing what happened at Istvaan III.
HQ
Legion Praetor with Artificer Armour, Paragon Blade, Volkite Charger, Void Shield Harness, Pride of the Legion - 175pts
Primus Medicae with Artificer Armour, Nanyte Blaster, Power Weapon - 150pts
TROOPS
10-man Fearless Legion Veteran Tactical Squad with Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, Melta Gun, Nuncio-Vox, Veteran Sergeant with Power Weapon, Rhino with Dozer Blade and Havoc Launcher - 310pts
10-man Fearless Legion Veteran Tactical Squad with Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, Melta Gun, Nuncio-Vox, Veteran Sergeant with Power Weapon, Rhino with Dozer Blade and Havoc Launcher - 310pts
9-man Legion Tactical Support Squad with Plasma Guns, Legion Sergeant with Melta Bombs, Rhino with Dozer Blade and Heavy Bolter - 355pts
ELITES
Contemptor Dreadnought with Kheres-Pattern Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Drop Pod - 265pts
Contemptor Dreadnought with Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Drop Pod - 265pts
FAST ATTACK
9-man Reaver Attack Squad with chainaxes and Rhino with Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Heavy Flamer - 269pts
HEAVY SUPPORT
Legion Sicaran Battle Tank with Armoured Ceramite, Dozer Blade, Lascannons - 200pts
Legion Sicaran Battle Tank with Armoured Ceramite, Dozer Blade, Lascannons - 200pts
Explanations in next post.
>>44790941
The Praetor rolls with the Reavers in their Rhino, using his void shield harness to tank any hits once they're out. The Primus Medicae goes with the plas supports, using his nanyte blaster to help turn TEQs and MEQs to pulp. The Contemptors sit in reserve until anyone carrying a nuncio-vox decides they need them, or if I feel like fucking armoured vehicles up with their chainfists. The Sicarans do as Sicarans do. I mostly want them because they look badass.
My real concern is the transports. Is it viable to mechanise your entire army?
>>44790987
>>44790941
Just a heads up on the HH4 content included in the list from the most recent FW errata:
>Relics of the Dark Age of Technology Clarification (HH4 – page 222)
>The rules for Relics of the Dark Age of Technology, included in the Campaign Rules section of The Horus Heresy Book Four – Conquest, are intended for use with and acquired as part of narrative campaigns by prior agreement of all involved parties.
>In casual games, players should seek the agreement of their opponent before including these powerful items of wargear in their armies and they should not be treated as being part of the standard army list.
>>44784720
>>44791067
Ahhh fuck. Time to change some stuff.
>>44790941
Looks okay... but I'd be spooked at putting assault troops like the Reavers in a non-Assault vehicle like the Rhino. You'll have to tell me how it goes.
>>44782744
Cool bit of fluff
>>44785513
Yeah, it's pretty good, I enjoyed it too.
>>44785513
Das'pretty kewl model. Where's it from?
>>44790545
Yes the initial ones in first heretic were proper chaos worshippers
But over time the new colonists got purple irises as well and increased numbers of psykers
If i play Iron Hands what is the best way to equip the models from the B@C set?
>>44790941
Marr featured in vengeful spirit I think
>>44791735
>increased numbers of psykers
Well that's new. I'm only aware of the irises, though you'd think something like that would take some time to manifest. Doubt they'd start appearing the moment new dudes settle in. Would have assumed it became a thing way after the new colonists had lived there.
You'd think the pylons would help to stop psykers becoming so common, but I guess somebody forgot all about them.
>>44791723
Looks like a heavily converted old metal daemon prince, pic related.
>>44791951
Shame the plastic one doesn't look nearly this good.
>>44791965
True that
>>44791793
I'd imagine this wouldn't kick in until post-Age of Apostasy. It might even be a 13th Black Crusade thing.
>>44791683
Yeah, all the call outs in the FW books have great little nuggets of fluff.
>>44786780guilliman
unless being right all the time counts as doing something wrong
>>44791683
Here's one of those Iron Hands wearing the Seal of the Eye of Vigilance.
>>44786780
Russ
>>44791743
Anyone?
>>44792436
If you want someone to answer you might want to be a little bit more specific with what you're trying to go for in terms of your army.
>>44792213
The majority of them are to allow for as much flexibility in army lore as possible. So you don't have a thousand people coming in, going, "I want to make traitor <insert loyalist>! Is that canon?"
I heard that WE, IH and DG can have some pretty effective blob lists and WB lets me have a chainaxe for free if I have the option of taking CCW however do I need to pay 2 points the buy the CCW for tacticals to replace them with chainaxes or do I just get them for free?
>>44793372
This question has been brought up to FW directly and even they were rather stumped by it (although that was awhile ago. Not sure if it was put into an errata). I don't think there's a consensus, but at least with the three different groups I've played with, we let them take the chainaxe for free, without having to make it a replacement.
>>44793418
This rule is still vague and many people have their own interpretations, but the way my group plays it is if you pay for the chainsword you may swap it for a chain axe for free.
>>44793418
Not sure if this answers your replacement question. But FW has said you can either take a chainaxe or chainsword, but not both.
>>44793554
Actually reading the answer from FW again it seems like the chainaxe is free, you don't even have to pay for the chainsword first.
>>44793573
But a tactical marine does not have the option of taking a CCW and bolter unless they pay for it which would suggest that they are not free
>>44793600
Is the option for a chainsword in the unit options? If so, they get the chainaxe for free. As long as you can take a chainsword, it doesn't matter if you pay for the chainsword or not.
>>44793600
The FW response clearly states, "...a model that either HAS or CAN TAKE a chainsword may exchange the chainsword for a chain axe..."
>>44793653
still implying you'd need to pay for it. If you have the option to take a chainsword for x points, you can instead pay x points to take a chain axe. No extra point tax included.
>>44793653
Ok, lets say you buy a vanilla marine without paying for the CCW, it does not and cannot take a CCW without paying for it first
>>44792542
I guess an all around decent loadout for the tacs and HQ's.
>>44793704
Can a Legion Tactical take an additional CCW, yes. If so then it may get a free chainaxe. I don't understand where this requirement for actually having to buy the chainsword first is coming from. I would see your argument if the rule actually said "If a model has purchased a chainsword it may swap the chainsword for a chainaxe for free."
>>44793798
see >>44793689
You may swap the chainsword for an axe for free, but since you need to pay for the sword, you'd also need to pay for the axe. It just doesn't cost any extra points on top.
>>44793798
The confusion comes from the FW answer, which requires that the chainsword be replaced with a chainaxe, meaning a chainsword would have to be present first.
But I personally agree with your interpretation.
>>44793838
But it says "Access". It doesn't say anything about having to buy the chainsword first.
>>44793839
The response isn't saying it has to replace the chainsword. "A model that either has or CAN TAKE a chainsword may exchange the chainsword for a chainaxe."
It's not saying you have to buy the chainsword first.
Anyway, I'm done arguing my point. My group has been doing the free chainaxe thing for a while and honestly World Eaters could use any benefit they can get.
>>44793851
No, it simply states that you may swap the Chainsword for a Chainaxe for free.
Since your tacticals do not have chainswords, but can purchase them, they should purchase them, and then replace them for free.
The rule is quite clear. Any other interpretation is wishful thinking, nothing more. Typical power gaming fantasy.
>>44793875
And where in your response is the tactical marine getting the chainsword to replace with an axe? Because he has to buy one first, so he can replace it for free.
>>44793798
No
There could be a model that comes with the sword as standard or a model that doesn't but can buy it
Either case the sword can be swapped for axe without paying extra
That's a better wording I don't know why they don't use it
>>44793940
That's not what the rule states at all. It says "has or can". WE can get chainswords, hence they are eligible for the free chainaxes.
Honestly, I always thought this was deliberate as a bonus to the WE - their regular bonuses aren't too powerful. It's hilarious to call free chainaxes powergaming considering the rest of their rather weak rules.
>>44793875
If a shop offers free replacement I don't know vacuum cleaners because the old ones are faulty that doesn't mean anyone can get a free cleaner
>>44794039
I'm sorry but please don't come into an argument with a retarded example. You're doing no one any favors.
I've just emailed FW to see if I can get a straight answer. Granted >>44793554 response makes it seem like the original question asker didn't seem to understand the rule either. Here is what I asked FW:
The World Eaters Legiones Astartes Special Rule states: Any model with Legiones Astartes (World Eaters) special rule which has access to a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free as long as this is appropriately represented on the model.
Does this mean:
a.) Legion Tactical Marine with no chainswords must first buy a chainsword for +2 points and then is able to swap the chainaxe for free.
or
b.) Legion Tactical Marine with no chainsword, but the option to take a chainsword, automatically gets a free chainaxe without first having to pay +2 points to buy a chainsword first?
Thanks!
>>44794018
They may clarify it in the re-release of the red book. The WE could use a bit of a buff as you said.
>>44794141
Are there any big HH tournaments, if so how did they rule it?
>>44794237
I sure hope not.
>>44794237
A group in Australia that does the Inferno Campaign only had pic related to say. "Access" does not mean you have to buy a chainsword.
>>44794093
Go back to 40kgeneral please
>>44794592
Why? >>44794039 interjected with a poor example that isn't even close to the argument being had. Are you saying that >>44794093 is better than a shit post?
>>44794632
The rule states you can exchange an ace for the sword
If you don't have a sword you can't exchange it
Take a real life example
If I buy a car I can get a free upgrade of alloy wheels
Your interpretation is that since I have the potential to buy the car I am entitled to the free alloy wheels regardless of whether I buy the car or not
>>44794680
>The rule states you can exchange an ace for the sword
You should read the rule again. It says "Access" it doesn't say you even need the "Ace" or whatever word you're swapping out for chainsword is. Why is that so hard to understand?
Also why are you trying to apply a real world example? That doesn't do anything different.
>>44794680
In fact check out this debate
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308364-do-world-eater-tacticals-get-free-chainaxes/
>>44794680
You do realize your real world examples are very poorly constructed. Which is why
>>44794093
>>44794632
>>44794725
are having issues with your argument?
>>44794680
You're arguing someone has to buy a car first. The rule doesn't mention anything about having to buy a chainsword.
>>44794924
Don't blame me for WE being so rubbish you have to Jew the rules to make them half decent
>>44794968
I'm glad you realize you're wrong.
>>44794987
Oy vey isn't it sabbath Ari?
>>44780948
My group just got finished running a campaign, it was alright but quite a few rules were modified/ added because all but 3 of the players were just coming in with a BaC box, so no primarchs, no locked in lists, and a few more. These changes really messed with a bunch of things and made the campaign suffer. There were some positive things we changed from the campaign system like no roles on the character death chart on missions that did not give strategic points (relic and rescue).
Otherwise the changes were dirt and some of the missions are awful (like the one that says no reserves except via deepstrike)
Also an idea if a beginner league happens, no knights. Getting beaten via list building is shit especially when the missions are either kill points or get as much things into the other deployment zone as possible. Yeah that and the glaive, at least if your playing a campaign for beginners. That shits plain unfair against armies that are made up of almost completely infantry.
>>44793875
I personally think the word "exchange" means you do need to pay for the chainsword first, and then it gets upgraded to a chainaxe for free. Otherwise it would say "may take".
If people want to give them a few free points that's fine with me, they could use it. But I think it was clearly not intended that way.
>>44794968
>>44795070
instead
Jnˈstɛd
adverb
as an alternative or substitute.
"do not use lotions, but put on a clean dressing instead"
>>44793875
>It's not saying you have to buy the chainsword first.
If you don't have a chainsword, how do you exchange it for a chainaxe? Of course you don't have to pay for it, just trade in your bolter for a chainsword for free.
>>44795398
Look up what "access" means and come back.
To try to bring this debate back to sanity
Let's cost it up
Tacticals can replace their bolter with a chain sword for free
The 2 points is for an extra sword
Assault marines have their bolter replaced already
Giving tacticals a free axe on top makes them a cheaper assault option then assualt
>>44795429
See pic
>>44795424
A tactical squad doesn't have chainswords normally, but has access to them. How do they exchange their chainswords for chainaxes without getting the chainswords first?
>>44795511
So 10 points for a chain sword and chain axe or even 2 chain axes versus assualt marines who can't take an extra cc and cost 15
That's not very fluffy that an assualt legion doesn't have better assault marines than its tactical marines
>>44795566
This is assualt marine option
>>44795515
Read the rule. The only requirement is ACCESS. Show me where it says they need chainswords.
>>44795566
Assault marines are just overcosted.
>>44795357
So I just looked it up, and the red book doesn't say "exchange", it says "take". That means free chainaxe, imo.
>>44795658
So tacticals can have 2 axes for 10 points a marine and assault only have 1 at max at 15?
And I thought 30k prided itself on not being waac faggots
Do we really have to do this debate again? Everytime we go round circles about the definition of "access to" and nothing ever gets resolved
>>44795658
The bit that says "exchange the chainsword for a chainaxe"?
A model that doesn't have a chainsword or doesn't have access to a chainsword, can't take a chainaxe. But a model that does, exchanges that chainsword for the chainaxe. Assault squad has chainswords and thus can exchange them straight up. Tacticals don't have chainswords stock, but can buy them for 2pts. or exchange their bolters for them. Thus giving them the chainswords to exchange for the chainaxes.
How is this so difficult?
>>44795705
Nobody takes Assault Marines to begin with so it doesn't really matter.
>>44795689
In fact I found this
http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t179687.html
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for your email and I Can help clear this up for you. As it states in the rule book "Any model with the Legions Astartes (World Eaters) special rule which has access to a chainsword can instead take a chainaxe for free as long as this is appropriately represented on the model." This would be read exactly as is and would therefore mean that a model that either has or can take a chainsword may exchange the chainsword for a chain axe that must be shown on the model to represent this change.
It does no entitle the model to a chainsword and axe, one replaces the other for all circumstances. as mentioned in the rule this exchange is made at no points cost.
Thanks again
How would you rate my reply?
Great Okay Not Good
>>44795792
that was posted here >>44793554 and doesn't answer anything as clearly as you think.
>>44795820
Except the word exchange is used
>>44795689 argued it's not an exchange and the email states it is
>>44795756
It says "Has or can take a chainsword may exchange for a chainaxe." You don't need a chainsword, you just need to have the option to take a chainsword.
>>44795918
Then what are you exchanging for the chainaxe?
>>44795918
May exchange the chainsword is what the email says
Since everyone is starting to get confused what the actual rule is, here it is. Doesn't mention anything about having to buy a chainsword and the email says "either HAS or CAN TAKE" a chainsword. You clearly do not need to buy a chainsword.
>>44795945
>>44795941
You're exchanging the OPTION.
>>44795956
What?
>>44795956
del that either has or can take a chainsword may exchange the chainsword for a chain axe that must be shown on the model to represent this change.
It's exchange the chainsword not exchange the option
>>44796099
Why are you deleting anything from the email answer?
>>44796138
?
I'm quoting the fw employee's interpretation
The problems with boards is if you reproduce a quote in full people glaze over
The argument was that the rule meant you are replacing the option
I showed that the fw email said the rule meant you are replacing the chainsword
>>44795946
Hey look at that, a complete lack of the word 'exchange'
>>44796138
See>>44796724
For how retarded people can be they just read and quote stuff that agrees with their prior held opinions
I agree the rules could be worded better and other legions similar rules are worded better
>>44795946
That says free chainaxe, basically.
Does the model have access to a chainsword? (i.e. is it an option?)
If so, you may take a chainaxe for free.
I don't see why it's a big deal. It's free to swap out your bolter for a chainsword according to HH1 (tac squad entry). Two chainswords costs +2 points, so two chainaxes should cost +2 points.
>>44796827
No you can have bolt pistol plus sword for free or bolter and pistol and sword for extra 2
World eaters could have axes instead of swords without paying extra for the axe
The wording is one of the following not any of the following
What is the best loadout for B@C tactical marines for dealing with other marines?
>>44797414
As in normal tactical marines, not veterans?
Bolters.
>>44790941
For Marr read "Meduson" anthology.
>tfw got enough stuff to make a good start to a legion for Christmas but haven't had the motivation to do anything more then assemble half a tac squad
Send help
>>44798639
>tfw have tons of motivation to do shit now the TSons sets are out but am stuck in a foreign country for 3months and can't do shit
>>44798603
>>44790941
You should read Meduson regardless. It's really good.
>>44798639
>tfw you're making a slow but steady progress with you BaC Space Wolves and will start repositioned the Dreadnought this weekend
This box set is awesome!
>>44799072
as someone who just returned from a foreign country half a year ago...enjoy it while you can. Would trade all my plastic/resin crack to be back in glorious Austria.
>>44799515
I honestly would love it they decided to release another BaC-like set to cover Prospero Burns maybe featuring assault marines and some tanks
>>44800403
Me too, but I don't expect them to. Plastic MK2 would be quite he sight, though.
Ultramarines vs Word Bearers is a better option than SW vs TS, though, since it's easier to make generic kits.
>>44795566
>That's not very fluffy that an assualt legion doesn't have better assault marines than its tactical marines
That's the point. WE don't need explicitly demarcated assault marines because all of their marines are assault marines, whatever role they're nominally filling at the time.
I bet their damn tank crews carry chainaxes and are better than the assault marines of other legions.
You just don't take the Assault Marines in a WE army (notwithstanding that you don't take them in any legion army, or any space marine army for that matter), in the same way that IW don't bother with normal Heavy Weapon Support Squads when they can get Iron Havocs, or RG don't need Recon Squads (not than anyone else needs those either) when they can get Mor Deythan.
>>44799536
It's a little hard to enjoy a few hundred square miles of nothingness. If it wasn't for the fact we have surprisingly good satellite internet I'd probably be insane before too long.
>>44792268
Wouldn't that count as a Mary Sue?
