So why do so many people think that rpgs with needlessly complex rules the disrupt the natural flow of the narrative are what rpgs really are about. Is it because those are easier to market than the latter? Roleplaying games intrinsically thrive in systems that are rules light.
People mistake complexity for complicated.
A game like basic role-play (call of Cthulhu) or GURPS have a loads of rules but these all handled in consistent straight forwards manner of simply applying common sense to a situation. These games are complex but they aren't complicated in play. People don't bitch about these because they're not an issue to play.
The D20 on the other hand ( maybe not 5e but certainly the case of previous editions) is unfortunately full of oddball rules that only makes sense within the context of the game as a game. This might make for a more compelling dungeon crawl experience but actively undermine any sense of immersion the player could experience.
>>44278076
Hey look someone let the one single idiot who has ever played fate use a computer.
>>44278076
Some people don't care about the flow of the narrative much. I personally enjoy pretty much every type of game, and the appeal of something like Dark Heresy, Unknown Armies or Weapons of the Gods is that they facilitate narrative in a different way than more light games do. I think the most damaging thought to RPGs as a whole is the idea that there is only one way to play
>>44278319
Not everybody plays for immersion, and you can have great roleplay without being "immersed" in the least.
Some of the best roleplaying I've been involved in has happened without being immersed in the slightest, actually.
>>44278076
>Roleplaying games intrinsically thrive in systems that are rules light.
This is empirically false. The go-top RPGs in the industry are all mechanically rather heavy. D20 ruled the roost for like a decade despite being ponderous, over-complicated and relying on endless mountains of sourcebooks and materials for interest.
The market seems to crave a mix of rules and materials, but with a basic mechanic that's easy to understand.
>>44280157
I can only imagine that Fate was intentionally so bad to make groups freeform in order to avoid the "rules"
>>44280572
>Doesn't understand the difference between Jell-o and pectin in the market.
>>44278076
Numenara did a good job of simple freedom
>>44278076
Because a lot of people don't really care about the role-playing as group storytelling aspect of it.
They treat it as WoW without graphics and want mechanics that let them pull off sick combos, make optimal builds and get phat lootz.
You're making the mistake of thinking every rpg player wants the same thing, but a lot of them just want to hang out and do generic nerdshit with their friends because they're generic nerds.
Fantasy-gaming is pretty disconnected from it's roots in fiction these days, the current generation of dorks are playing games based on books based on the authors campaign from another game.
Other symptoms of this is the anti-intellectualism rampant in player bases of certain games (omg he used being in character as an excuse for not picking the best option, what a role-playing faggot, omg, those people actually do different voices and shit for different characters, omg he actually does his dialogue in first person instead of "gorthar says some shit") and the strange geek-prudeness that /tg/ is infected with "Don't get your sexuality in our game about playing muscly barbarians that cut peoples heads off and save princesses".
In short, the current crop of role-players are more Big Bang Theory than Conan.
>>44281097
Who hurt you.
>>44280572
The top rpgs are the ones with the biggest company backing them and the most marketing budget, and the one that sniped players from the first one when they tried to change the formula too much.
If Wizards of the Coast decided that the best way to make money was to convince you all that roll-playing is for knuckleheads and that immersive story telling and character-driven play is where it's at, they would do so in a heartbeat and this time next year you'd be looking down your nose at people like your current self and say shit like "Oh. Well we don't really worry about how complex the RULES are, we're more about complex STORIES..."
But as anyone with half a brain can figure out, the best way to make money is not to make a streamlined, lightweight rules-system that can be applied to anything, the best way to get you to shell out for more books is to keep tacking on more complex rules and special cases.
>Omg, I remember when they used to sell complete games, I hope this DLC shitstorm ends eventually. Oh, look, they put out a new book with rules for slightly different magic, to the dorkshoppe! -everyone.
>>44278076
I hate badwrongfun too, anon.
>>44281140
Society I imagine.
>>44281097
This is for the most part correct.
>>44278076
These threads are always filled with niggers from D&D or some bullshit like The Window throwing shit at each other about whether actually gaming is best or making a story is best, and you both fucking miss the point. The only way you *can* make a good story is by having rigorous and well put together crunch. It's not about sitting in a circle by the camp fire all bullshitting why your character is totally THE special snowflake, and it's not about aimlessly rolling dice when you could better spend your time with a spreadsheet or vidya.
Since I'd rather not make a thread for it, is there any good replacements for doing D&D fantasy? I want to run a high fantasy campaign with the feel of Everquest's world.
>>44281203
>>44281140
I am incredibly aware of how much I sound like some kind of bitter role-playing hipster who mumbles shit like "The first edition was best" in his sleep. Fuck, I probably do. I have been DMing for something like 18 years now (since I was 12 and me and my buddies were wowed by the realization that there are GAMES where you can do ANYTHING because YOU make the plot!) and I am increasingly discouraged to give teens and 20 year olds a shot at joining the group because it always turns into this weird cult-deprogramming situation where I have to tell someone that "Being the tank" isn't a thing and how you're suppose to solve conflicts between characters in character, not by taking me aside and trying to have a conversation about "Erik's attitude" because his character is an opportunistic asshole.
If I had to put it into words, I would say that the "problem" or whatever you want to call it, for me at least, is this:
Role-playing games are not part of the general fantasy-fandom any more. They're part of the gaming fandom. Players don't arrive at my table to roll dice because they read a ton of fantasy books and they keep having ideas for people they'd like to be or experiences they'd like to have that aren't possible outside of fiction.
They arrive at my table because they played pokemon and magic and wow and think that everyone with glasses who got picked on in highschool belong to the same tribe.
>>44281166
Perhaps you should make an argument that does not involve calling everyone else a mindless drone who listens to what Wizards tells them. Because that just makes you a pathetic arsehole.
>>44281477
Perhaps you should make an argument that involves actual arguments and not just "You're a meanie so I'm gonna hold my hands over my ears until you go away". The idea that being rude somehow means people are automatically wrong was probably put into your head by some school teacher trying to make you feel better about being wrong so often.
>>44281519
The point isn't that you're rude, it's that you don't actually have an argument. You just say other people are drones, which is another way of saying they disagree with you.
>>44281519
You have no way of knowing he is a mindless drone and assuming it out of nowhere as a pointless and unprovoked personal attack makes you a petty idiot.
>>44281568
Someone used popularity of a complicated system as an argument against the idea that role-playing thrives in rules-light system, I argued against that by pointing out that the top systems popularity hinges on other things than brilliant games design.
I'm sorry I have to spell things out for you. Now shut up with the butthurt meta-argument and get back on topic.
>>44281689
Mang, I can literally read your post. It's only a little way upthread. I know that's not what you said, although you touched on it. In any case, that is also retarded; people don't play systems they don't like. Yeah, they might prefer other systems if they found them; but clearly they like D&D or PF enough not to bother looking.
>>44281689
No, you made a ridiculous personal attack without any basis for doing so and disguised it as a justification for your argument. Don't be childish because people called you out on it.
'DnD is popular because it got there first and has marketing' is entirely different to claiming the majority of people would radically change what they personally enjoy because Wizards changed how DnD works. Especially since you said in your own post people left the game for another one in large numbers when they did make changes.
>>44281327
Man. You might sound bitter but it's all true. I'm very, very new to tabletops and have run into the same problem. I'm part od the group that wants to have an experience. To play a character and see and act in a fantastic world through their eyes. When I get mixed up in a group that simply wants to kill things and loot no matter what type of character they're playing I really feel the disconnect you're describing.
>>44278076
What if the obstacles described by the "needlessly complex rules" are actually what makes the salt of the game, like in Shadowrun ?
>>44281327
>I have to tell someone that "Being the tank" isn't a thing
My group usually tried to keep all combat roles covered so that, just on case fighting is necessary, we're prepared.
Then again, we play D&D 4e, so keeping combat roles covered and everyone being out of combat useful isn't mutually exclusive.
>>44281327
It's strange. I've never had this problem. I really don't know why, because I'm *part* of the vidya generation (or whatever you want to call it). Mostly, people just get that roleplay is roleplay.
>>44281327
>"The first edition was best"
In the case of SPECIFICALLY d&d the answer is YES
PS: This YES answer takes into account possible future editions, no matter how they are, unless they are first edition with just typo fixes that will not change gameplay
>>44281840
To clarify, I didn't mean that we don't NEED a tank, because we're playing a social game or anything.
I meant the whole concept of there being one person who's a damage soak for the rest of the group because opponents are retarded and won't hit the healer being silly.
>>44278319
Put Rifts in tiny text next to D&D on that grid
>>44281861
It's not really about being into vidya or not, I've been playing vidya from 8 bit to current gen, it's more about how pen and paper role-playing has shifted from the sphere of escapism and general fantasy fandom, towards being part of gaming culture.
You used to play rpgs with the people who borrowed your Elric books and had all the Savage Sword of conan editions, now you meet players who've never read a fantasy book because D&D was something they got into through their MtG playgroup or their WoW buddies, or people who've only read books based on games and stuff like that. It's easy to sound like an elitist jerk but I think a lot of people who are in their late twenties and above can relate.
A large part of the rpg gaming community feels like some sort of Cargo-Cult that are four or five steps removed from the original source material and it's difficult for people like me to relate to them.
Of course, this doesn't take away anything from their fun, or my fun, it's just sad that our kinds of fun have less and less overlap, and I think it goes a long way towards explaining the most basic source of conflict between players in the community: the fiction vs the gaming.
>>44278076
It's not fucking rocket science, you earn more money by selling people a ton of books than you do by selling them one, perfect book.
If you make a lot of money, you can afford to put out more product and spend more on marketing. If you have lots of products and lots of marketing, you become the most popular game.
The end.
