Planescape General and Q&A
Let us see how successful a brief revival of these threads will be.
Discuss Planescape and the Great Wheel here, whether the original AD&D 2e version, the 3.X version, the 4e version (yes, it exists in 4e, down to the baernaloths, the yugoloths, the Heart of Darkness, Maeldur et Kavurik, Tenebrous, Pelion, and the Last Word all being canon as of Dragon #417), the 5e version, or your own original blend.
I am exceedingly well-lanned on Planescape canon under a holistic blend of 2e, 3.X, and sometimes even 4e lore. If you have any questions at all about the setting's lore, feel free to ask, and I will give you direct quotes and citations from as many primary sources as I can, unlike afroakuma. I will note when something is open to GM interpretation, and explicitly note whenever I give merely my own personal interpretation.
>Basic setting summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape
>Comprehensive Planescape reference index: http://www.rilmani.org/psIndex.txt
>Planewalker.com planar encyclopedia: http://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/plane
>Canonfire.com planar encyclopedia: http://canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outer_Planes
>Rilmani.org planar encyclopedia (contains unmarked fanon, so beware): http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Outer_Planes
>List of all the multiverse's gods (contains all gods mentioned in D&D products, but also has plenty of speculation and fanon for mythological deities and for powers with few details on them): http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/list-dead-gods#comment-58090
Old threads with previous questions and comprehensive answers:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/%22comprehensive%20planescape%22/
Is God real?
>>44267253
Deities in Planescape most certainly exist. One of the links in the OP is an astoundingly comprehensive list of deities in the Great Wheel ( http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/list-dead-gods#comment-58090 ), although about ~10% of them are extrapolated from real-world mythology.
Any given deity's power level depends on the edition you are using. They might be within the reach of mortal adventurers like in 1e, 4e, or 5e, or they could be wholly beyond mortal capacities like in 2e or 3.X.
All-powerful overdeities exist in the Great Wheel, but their functions are limited to a single crystal sphere (roughly analogous to a solar system), as laid out in page 160 of AD&D 2e On Hallowed Ground:
>The poor prime gods don't always have the final say on their own worlds, either. Some of the toughest bow to a still _higher_ deity, an overpower who watches out for the entire crystal sphere. Each overpower is concerned with only a single sphere, and has no influence outside that realm. Chant is they've tied all their strength to maintaining the one sphere; perhaps they're simply its spirit made real. Whatever, the more powers they have in their domain, the more they might have, so the overpowers that want to grow are almost always looking to invite new deities under their umbrella. And it ain't so bad, really. The gods of a world don't have to bend like straw under the laws of their overpower — though all sorts of terrible things can happen if they don't pay attention.
>'Course, not every world has an overpower. Some crystal spheres spawn 'em; others don't. It's one of the mysteries of the Prime.
>>44267713
Page 88 of the 3.0 Manual of the Planes offers a somewhat different take on such overgods:
>“Uber-Deities”: Some cosmologies have a deity that wields power an order of magnitude mightier than the greater deities. This uber-deity may be worshiped by the rank-and-file deities, or may be an entity of vast power revered by deities and mortals alike.
>Such uber-deities, if they exist at all in your cosmology, are beyond the ken of mortals and beyond the forces of the universe itself. They seemingly care nothing for worshipers. Uber-deities do not grant spells, answer prayers, or respond to queries. Only a handful of scholars on the Material Plane know about an uber-deity—if anyone knows at all. For instance, the lesser deity Vecna reveres the force of magic, personifying it as an entity he calls the Serpent. Perhaps the Serpent is an uber-deity of unimaginable power.
Page 25 of the 3.0 Deities & Demigods book says something similar:
>Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.
Whether an overdeity's strength applies only to a single crystal sphere (solar system) or to the multiverse at large depends on the edition you use.
That said, there are certainly beings of an even greater power level than overdeities: the Ancient Brethren, composed of the likes of the Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, and, if it exists, the Serpent. (From a lore writing perspective, the creative origins of this grouping are rather muddled and involved some gruesome conflation of Greyhawk lore into Planescape lore, but there is little that can be done about it.) I go into these in a previous thread here:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/44153118/#44166123
>>44267726
In true Planescape style, however, there are those who seek even more profound cosmic truths: higher realities above and beyond the Great Wheel.
This is a common thread amongst the Sigilian factions. The Athar seek the Great Unknown. The Believers of the Source... believe in the Source, the supposed wellspring of all reality. The Dustmen yearn for the cosmic truth that is True Death. The Transcendent Order attunes itself to the Cadence. You can read about all of these in the 2e Factol's Manifesto book.
The factions are not the only seekers of higher realities beyond the Great Wheel. Another group that studies such concepts is the University of Metatheory, located in the City of the Star, the divine realm of the greater Babylonian goddess Ishtar in the plane of Elysium. It is described in the poster maps of 2e Planes of Conflict:
>University of Metatheory — This informal association of philosophers, clerics, mages, and others gathers to discuss the nature of the multiverse. They're not concerned with factions, sects, or powers [editor's note: despite living in the divine realm of a greater goddess], seeking instead to know what lies _beyond_ the planes. Just as the Clueless are shocked to learn their world is but one among many in an infinite space — which is itself but one of many planes — these thinkers wonder if all the beings on all the planes are still clueless about the true nature of things. Those interested in such mysteries can seek out these erudite thinkers for instruction or conversation.
>>44267807
The 2e adventure Doors to the Unknown involves a higher reality called "hyper-reality," although it is not quite the higher reality that some seek. Instead, it is based off the 2e Ravenloft supplement The Nightmare Lands' concepts of "levels of reality," more related to dreams and perception of reality than anything else. That is why Doors to the Unknown's "hyper-reality" works this way, as page 57 of that adventure explains:
>A HIGHER REALITY
>The place beyond the Fourth Door consists of the fourth-level of reality. Some sages call this hyper-reality. Events that take place here are more real than the reality most characters know. In hyper-reality, everything has more vitality, colors are brighter, scents are stronger, sounds are more intense, and emotions are more stirring. In short, the intensity of all effects that occur here is greater by a significant degree.
Of course, it gets even more complicated than that. The Great Wheel is not the only multiverse. There are other cosmologies, such as Eberron's orrery, and multiverses can sometimes brush against one another, as page 177 of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook tells us:
>Devastation vermin are mindless agents of destruction, time-forgotten remnants from an alternate multiverse that comes into synch with our own only once every few thousand eons.
The Great Wheel is not the first iteration of the "Great Wheel multiverse" either. Page 202 of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook says, with respect to the leShay:
>LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe that not only wiped out most of their people but changed time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest past.
Then there are the most well-known creatures who predate the current Great Wheel, the draeden. Their pre-multiversal status is established in pages 28-29 of Dragon #359 and implied in page 126 of the Fiendish Codex I.
What's so interesting about Planescape? I've never been drawn into it, or found it entertaining (and I didn't even enjoy Planescape: Torment).
>>44267713
>>44267726
>>44267807
>>44267968
In short, if you would like to know if there is a creator god of the multiverse, you are going to have to make sense of all these overgods, Ancient Brethren, higher realities, alternate multiverses, and previous iterations of the Great Wheel first.
The true dark of the planes is more complex than anyone can imagine.
>>44267973
This is a purely subjective-opinion-based inquiry. I personally enjoy Planescape because it is extremely high fantasy, extremely high magic, extremely large scale (even canonical, published adventures have mid-level adventurers affecting the fate of the entire multiverse), and extremely exotic.
I find it to be an intriguing take on the "standard fantasy setting," where elves, dwarves, and orcs are supplanted by all kinds of quirky immortal creatures, and where nations bounded by mundane earth and sea are cast aside in favor of exotic planes of many surreal shapes and sizes.
>>44268034
>This is a purely subjective-opinion-based inquiry.
Should've said that I was looking for your opinion, OP, my bad. Thanks for the reply. I'm just gonna lurk this thread.
If the astral plane is timeless do people come out at the same moment they left?
if you were to spend a lifetime in there wouldn't you just assume it was all a dream when you came back out?
>>44269046
That is not *quite* how the timelessness of the Astral Plane works. Discounting demiplanes and the murky topic that is the Demiplane of Time/Temporal Prime, none of the planes in the Great Wheel deal with timey-wimey business.
I have covered the timeless nature of the Astral Plane in previous threads. It is likewise a difficult topic to write about because there are actually multiple versions of the Astral Plane that have appeared across various editions:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/43168673/#43194688
Neat stuff OP.
>>44270397
Okay.
>>44267713
>>44267726
>>44267807
>>44267968
This is all pretty fascinating. I'm actually somewhat surprised by just how in-depth the setting goes into these metaphysical questions, even though most mortals would never even conceive of these things.
>>44274684
Most *outsiders* would not conceive of such things. Archfiends, celestial paragons, deities, and slaad lords alike tend to be much more concerned with worldly matters and what is actually going on in the observable multiverse.
It takes a truly eccentric soul to look past all the wonders and the magic of the Great Wheel and contemplate matters of overdeities, Ancient Brethren, higher realities, alternate multiverses, and previous iterations of the Great Wheel.
I may be running a planescape campaign soon. That'll be fun.
But the issue is that a lot of these players are relatively new to rpgs, or at least to the lore that one needs to know for planescape. I have maybe one who knows how exactly to feel insulted when my npcs call his pc berk.
On one hand, I could make it a urban campaign focused in Sigil, but that's a waste of planescape in my opinion.
I could let the party explore different planes, but them being new players, give them a planar guide or something to keep them from wandering and then falling off the edge of one of Mechanus's cogs or something.
>but muh railroading
I'm probably being an idiot here and overlooking something obvious.
>>44275698
You could start the players off in a throwaway Prime world, fill that Prime world full of the most generic fantasy tropes possible (elves, dwarves, orcs, and so on), emphasize those generic tropes in one or two throwaway adventures, and then assign the party a most important mission: explore the strange dimension that lies beyond a certain gate.
You can then drop them into Sigil as Clueless. They can then familiarize themselves with the city, perhaps with the aid of a mimir that can teach them all the relevant information they need to know. They can ask about all the strange creatures roaming the streets, where those creatures come from, and, most importantly, how to get to the places where those creatures come from.
Once the party grows comfortable with Sigil, they can then strike off into other planes.
>>44267726
Didn't the 3.0 manual of planes imply that asmodeus was the serpent?
They said his body was actually that of a giant serpent and that the arch devil was just an avatar.
>>44276118
You are correct about the possibility that Asmodeus is the Serpent, but it is a relatively unlikely possibility. I cover this in more detail here: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/44153118/#44166123
>>44276361
In that case, what do you know about the serpent? I feel like I've only seem him referenced as possibly asmodeus's true form and as the tutor of vecna.
>>44276646
Read the link.
How do the Planescape and Spelljammer meta-settings interact, if at all?
Welp, my players were just indirectly responsible for the destruction of an entire plane last session, and the destabilization of another. Now they've scattered to the winds and have been forced to go ask someone they really didn't want to rely on for help while they hide out from Asmodeus.
>>44278426
Spelljammer describes the Prime Material Plane and its many crystal spheres. Planescape describes the multiverse as a whole, focusing on the Outer Planes first and foremost, the Astral, Ethereal, and Inner Planes second, and the Prime Material Plane dead last (because every other setting covers the Prime).
Although the Spelljammer line ended before the Planescape line began, the Planewalker's Handbook still references Spelljammer concepts, particularly in page 32:
>A countless number of prime-material worlds float within separate vast crystal spheres, which are themselves contained in an ocean of fiery material called phlogiston.
>>44278446
How did this occur?
>>44278607
>How did this occur?
Hole was forming in the dark tapestry in Acheron, guy was about to close it using an item stolen from Mephistopheles. Players were ordered to get the item back. They do so, killing the guy in the process, but don't know how to seal the hole. They gate back to Hell to give back the item, only to find that Baalzebul has used the opportunity of Mephistopheles being without his prized weapon to attack and make a bid for overthrowing him.
Shit is pouring out of the hole, some comes through the gate, starts destabilizing Hell too. Asmodeus decides to purge a good portion of Hell's hierarchy, the PCs are on the list, so they decide to fuck off to a different plane. Three days later in game Meph and Baal are still locked in combat and Hell is having numerous devils killed to try and restabilize it.
>>44278655
What is this "dark tapestry" you speak of?
>>44278671
Where the outer planes stop and all that remains is what lies beyond. Basically it's the source where the stuff the outer planes are made from comes from. Pure elemental chaos/law/evil/good.
>>44278678
I have never heard of this concept previously. What source are you drawing it from? Is it a concept of your own creation?
>>44278702
I know it's a thing in PF. There is a kind of oracle that is about it. Also referred to as the Far Realms I believe? I don't know how much I differ from the cannon any longer.
What happens to a petitioner that dies on a plane that they don't belong to?
So, where can I download 2e Planescape?
In your opinion is it a very "gameable" setting? Where there are easy to use adventure hooks and conflicts for a campaign? I am under the impression that Planescape is more of a setting you think about and enjoy the same way you would a novel rather than a setting you play.
It seems intimidating and too exotic to play is what I'm saying.
>Touhou is back.
Cool.
>>44279100
There are quite a lot of introductory adventures that you can find to introduce your players, and there are a lot of episodic adventures to let them familiarize with each planes (Tales of the Infinite Staircase or The Great Modron March)
>>44279038
>>44279038
They meet oblivion.
Page 33 of AD&D 2e On Hallowed Ground explains the following:
>Petitioners aren't immortal. They can die just like any other berk - fact is, they can be killed far easier than most. What happens to a petitioner who doesn't merge or evolve, but gets himself put in the dead-book instead?
>There's no easy answer. It depends on whether the sod's on his home plane or not, whether he's in his power's realm or off gadding about somewhere else, and whether he's been killed naturally or unnaturally.
>First of all, a petitioner killed while away from his home plane is dead, gone, lost forever. In all the wide, wide multiverse, only a few ways of bringing these leatherheads back are known to exist, and they're all fantastically rare. Even powers don't restore petitioners who've gotten themselves killed off-plane. Generally, if the petitioner's off-plane, he's out of his god's reach. (Clangeddin Silverbeard, the dwarf god of battle, is an exception to this rule; for more information, refer to his entry in the chapter on the dwarvish pantheon.)
>The best a dying petitioner can hope for is that a bystander's quick with a _spiritbowl_ - a celestial item that captures the withering spirit. A kindly traveler can then carry the bowl back to the petitioner's home plane and release the spirit there. The petitioner won't reform, but at least he'll get to merge with his plane.
>The same fate awaits a petitioner while killed on his home plane, but outside the realm of his power (if any). His corporeal form's lost, but he can join with the essence of the land. It's certainly not the kind of merger petitioners hope for; they don't like dissolving into their planes until they've reached the ultimate ideal of their devotion.
>>44279697
>It's an especially harsh blow for a petitioner devoted to a particular power. He naturally wants to merge with his god; that's the point of his whole existence. The faithful see their struggle for meaning and understanding washed away in the blink of an eye. Still, it's better than oblivion. And at least they know that they're contributing to their world view.
>A petitioner killed within the borders of his god's realm is either prematurely absorbed by the deity or simply remade, depending on the god's wishes. Some powers won't take a spirit that's not ready, while others don't want to expend the energy to bring a petitioner back to life. How important is it to a god to have a fully prepared petitioner? Well, if there were any benefits to merging with the faithful ahead of time, it's a bet that the powers'd urge their petitioners to find ways to die. But they don't - not even the powers of death. So here's a good guess: It's better for a god to take a cutter who's learned the ways of the multiverse than a sod killed before his time.
[Editor's Note: Presumably, this is what applies to petitioners of a plane (but not a power) if they die within that plane, since the plane itself is effectively substituting in for a god's divine realm.]
>Finally, a petitioner who meets his end in an unnatural way - such as being taken by undead or spirit-sucking fiends - is also lost to his power. It might be a different story if the monster happens to be under the control of the deity. If the power moves quickly, he can force the beast to yield the stolen spirit; the process is akin to making a fiend vomit. Sadly, the spirits are always tainted by their absorption into the wicked creatures, and only the most evil of powers relish their taste afterward.
>>44279702
>But no matter where or how a petitioner dies, another question rears its ugly head: Does he leave a corpse behind, or does his body - which is just a temporary shell, after all - dissolve along with the spirit? It depends. If the sod gets put in the dead-book while in a place rooted in the belief in the physical, the body remains. If the realm's more attuned to spiritual matters, the body vanishes. Thus, the battlefields of Ysgard and Acheron are littered with corpses. But most planes aren't as grounded in the physical as are those war-torn sites.
>Once a berk understands how things work, it's painfully clear why petitioners hate leaving their home planes or realms. Fact is, they just won't do it, not unless sent on a special mission by their deity. The eternal death of a petitioner is always a sad event. To see a life force snuffed completely from existence, with no hope for return, ever, really gives a body pause.
>>44279100
Try asking in one of the PDF threads for download links for Planescape books.
Planescape is a very "gameable" setting under either of the following conditions:
A. The GM is intimately familiar with the setting and knows every one of its nooks and metaphorical crannies, and can thus easily come up with plot hooks based on their comprehensive setting knowledge.
B. The GM uses a premade module, as >>44279419 suggests, like the Great Modron March.
Is Demogorgon the strongest demon?
>>44279100
Look in the PDF share thread, or the last one - there was a torrent with all the AD&D pdfs you could ever want with the planescape books in it.
>>44279718
>Planescape is a very "gameable" setting under either of the following conditions:
The issue with Planescape is that the outerplanes, which make up the meat and potatos of the setting are basically the afterlives of the prime worlds, and the prime worlds are where the actual D&Ding happens, and thus it hits that occasional "nice setting, but what do I do with it?" problem that I've seen come up with a few other "good" games (Unknown Armies and Wraith: The Oblivion also had this problem).
>>44281283
Yes.
Or rather, he is the strongest tanar'ri demon - the Prince of Demons.
There have been others in the past who could rival him (Obox-Ob, for example), and there are those who can rival him now (Grazz't and Orcus). But singularly, even though he has rivals, he's still supreme.
>>44278678
Building on this I've been thinking about a slight modification to the general cosmology, basically having it that prime worlds are created "west" of mechanus and cycle around outside the great wheel until inevitably coming into contact with Limbo where they are torn/dissolve apart - with the pure essence of worlds flowing through the center of the outer planes into mechanus where a new world is created.
Basically the key thing is this idea of there being this definite birth/death cycle with the prime worlds.
The core idea is that the PCs are recruited from one prime world to help evacuate another prime world that's just on the cusp of its destruction, run a few quick escort missions in a dark sun based environment until they get a job to go get a wizard from a tower.
Said wizard having discovered a portal that leads to the exact same spot but just after the world's creation - the idea is that they'll want to bring the wizard back, alive or dead, to get their money, and in the process find there are portals back and forth further down the timeline... and ahead of where in the time line they came from.
>>44281510
This >>44281672 is correct. It should be noted that Obox-ob, during his prime, was likely more powerful than Demogorgon.
Page 21 of Dragon #357 tells us that Demogorgon was the first tanar'ri born from mortal souls:
>As mortal life appeared and their souls came to the Abyss, the Queen of Chaos was among the first to cultivate and nurture this new brand of evil. For as they grew, they transformed into a new breed of demon—the tanar'ri.
>The first of these new demons was a twisted, deformed abortion of evil with boneless arms, twin simian heads, reptilian legs, and a twisted tail—a snapping, howling, and ultimately uncontrollable monster formed from the primal fears of mortal souls.
But the same page also informs us that Obox-ob was the firstborn of the Abyss altogether:
>Among them were the obyrith lords, demons of vast power that were the mouthpieces of the Abyss itself. Some of these demon lords were more powerful than the others, but most powerful of them all was their prince, the first to rise from the primal matter of chaos and evil—Obox-ob.
Fantasy logic tells us that "more ancient/primordial is more powerful," and thus the original Obox-ob would have been of a higher order of demon than present-day Demogorgon, despite his defeat at the hands of the severely outmatched Queen of Chaos.
>>44281510
Prime worlds generally have a "generic" set of conflicts that any GM can field into play for the PCs to solve, most often involving monsters of some stripe attempting to conquer, corrupt, or destroy a certain location, NPC, or object.
The same cannot be said of the Outer Planes alone. There is no one "generic" set of conflicts that fits all of the planes (save for perhaps the Blood War). You are going to have to read the entries for every single Outer Plane in books like Planes of Chaos/Conflict/Law, determine the plot hooks there (e.g. the trials of Mount Celestia, the infernal politics of Baator), and memorize them. Difficult, but worthwhile.
>>44284309
That is a very intriguing setup for the crystal spheres of the Prime Material Plane, and it lines up with the life cycle of real-world stars too.
I would do away with the time travel business, but an anti-time-travel policy is simply a personal preference of mine.
So what happens when the Lady of Pain tries to maze a minotaur?
>>44286119
A certain producer of web videos resolved this in their game by having the minotaur's maze be nothing more than a straight, featureless corridor hundreds of millions miles long. It should be remembered that Her Serenity's maze-demiplanes are impossible to die in.
>>44286214
May I ask which producer of web videos?
>>44288106
Perform Google searches with the relevant terms, and I am sure you will find the answer yourself.
>>44281510
No way.
There are TONS of "adventuring" things that you can do in the Outer Planes. Even the various setting books come complete with lists of adventure hooks, and there was a giant list posted in one of the earlier threads.
There are plenty of fortresses, facilities and homes all over the Planes, and Pandemonium itself is a giant dungeon. There's plenty of "D&Ding" to do even if you're on Mount Celestia (ascending the various Paths is an amazing way to have a session), you just have to look.
Yes, you're not going to be fighting off a kobold invasion or whatever, but the various planar factions (both the baatezu government and groups like the Sensate) have tons of tasks which require adventurers to do.
If you need any ideas, just open up some of the premade adventures for Planescape (although some of them are a bit out there, I can highly reccomend Dead Gods).
