What's a good cyberpunk system for running a Deus Ex game?
Shadowrun
>>43686733
I do have a soft spot for Shadowrun but the fantasy elements stick out like a sore thumb evening if they were a refluffed. Besides it's rules never seemed like the greatest desu.
Same goes for cyberpunk 2020 even though the world is probably closer
I've heard good things about Interface era and I'm not sure savage worlds carries concept well.
>>43686783
Savage Worlds is my typical go-to, but yeah I don't think it would fit well, it's more for goofy actiony games (honestly I think it would be better for Shadowrun than Shadowrun's system.)
As for system I for Deus Ex I recommend the obvious GURPS. That's a given. But I also thing Eclipse Phase with some refluffing could really work. And finally I think Edge of the Empire is super super fun and can be tweaked for a lot of different games. You could set up so specialization trees for different cybernetic implants to define character progression more as cybernetic upgrades. Not everyone's cup of tea though, I just love it.
>>43686640
Silhouette
I'm a huge GURPSfag, so I'll throw my pet system into the ring. I think the rules are tight enough to not be an issue and the baseline of "heroic realism" matches the feel of Deus Ex pretty well.
Ultra-Tech has all the gadget goodies you'd need and Basic Set holds all the rules. The only other thing I'd recommend is an issue of their ezine Pyramid called Tech & Toys III; the article "Living Better with Cybernetics" is a bit crunchy but it makes cybernetics much more customization-friendly. Even if you don't want the players writing up custom cybernetics, it's good for GMs that want to add to the buying catalog. Ultra-Tech's catalog is, in my opinion, a bit limited. At the same time, I don't see too many people giving the same opinion, so I might be alone in this and you'll do fine with just UT and Basic Set.
GURPS
>>43686833
Good system then probably to lethal.
>>43686819
Eclipse Phase... Hmm. This is actually very close to the original Deus Ex now that I think about it. Being all up in the transhumance conspiracy parts.
Character creation and combat always found was a bit bloated but the core game play had a sort of elegance to I found.
>>43686838
I like GURPS but I've always found it was more fun read the back ground stuff and stat out stuff then run.
>>43686640
GURPS Transhuman Space had the best world fluff and some good crunch to go with it. It would best fit Deus Ex's realistic approach to cybernetics and combat.
>>43686916
Combat is okay in Eclipse Phase, but it's the character creation that always kills me. Call me a pleb but having to manage so many points and shit always takes me out of it. And when using the life path stuff I always get frustrated I can't get what I want.
>>43686640
Sadly >>43686733 is probably your best choice.
>>43686783
>but the fantasy elements
Cut 'em. Everyone's human, there is no magic or technomancers. Easy as that.
>refluffed.
No, don't fluff that shit. But cut them. With a chainsaw. You don't need magical healing or fucking aether warfare. It's just gone.
What? Are you worried about "balance"?
This shit was NEVER balanced.
> cyberpunk 2020
An even worse system.
>Eclipse Phase
Is focused WAY too far into the future.
>Ultra-Tech
>Edge of the Empire
>GURPS Transhuman Space
Dunno, they might be better than shadowrun.
But from what I know, shadowrun is probably your best bet.
Well probably not Rotsystem.
>>43687677
Go to character creation in eclipse Phase is a mess but since you cutting back more the esoteric options I think it might be a bit easier to handle.
Still I'll probably try Shadowrun, I was kinda worried about balance but since as you said it never balanced in the first place might I as well. I was planning to focus on the more esoteric parts of the illuminati anyway.
How's combat?
>>43689064
What is bad about CP2020?
>>43692507
Probably that it really hasn't got update since 2005 (R.Talsorian is actually pushing 1990's version again). Netrunning is pain and armor isn't balanced. World is outdated and fits more into alternate timeline.
Other than that, 1d10 + ability + skill vs. target difficulty is okay in my books.
>>43693331
Yeah I think the biggest gripe I have with it is that for a system that insists on putting style over substance it's combat is built to be like harshly realistic, at a certain point only sniper rifles and automatic weapons are gonna do anything against anyone with armored skin which is one of the cheaper pieces of ware.
>>43686640
FATE. Does the best job of pulling off realistic with the occasional "holy shit this was impossible how did they pull it off?" moments thanks to FATE points. Savage World is too action hero movie to pull it off, and while GURPS is pretty good, FATE does a better job at being grounded and has a much better time implementing completely original settings with more open ended rules.
>>43693331
Also:
Rockerboy Rebel rockers who use music and revolt to fight authority
>>43689064
>Edge of the Empire
Nah, I like the system but it's shit for cyberpunk. Too rule light for computer interaction, and gear is very important but badly defined or balanced apart from weapons and armor.
Works perfectly for sw as long as the whole table has the same understanding of the universe, though.
>>43693662
Only in a sense the dm can make something up and roll of it, for any sort of cunch above 'can I do it' FATE is a mechanically lacking.
>>43693807
It's mechanically open ended not necessarily lacking. You can do whatever you want, and the mechanics are built to be able to do whatever you want. It gives more freedom than any other RPG system, while at the same time grounding everything in rules that aren't unnecessarily complex and make the player waste time on what is ultimately simple stuff.
>>43686833
Love Silhouette but there's not much of a base for augmentations. Also bonuses from augs might unbalance shit pretty fast. Throw around too many +1s and pretty soon people are untouchable in combat.
>>43686916
>Good system then probably to lethal.
Deus Ex is pretty lethal on the whole. Just not for the protag because he's loaded up with augs.
>>43686640
Corporation.
www.corpgame.com
It does corporate agents pretty well.
>>43696330
If you get it you sincore for Augs ypur pretty much gonna have to use it for mostly contextual stuff and quietly avoid straight stat boots. It's a realistic system ( heavy gear and jovain chronicles actually had sci-fi want to look past the anime mecha stuff) but it uses a very narrow range of number.
>>43693903
Fate is good that what it does and that's narrative free forming with the conscious using story telling tropes. It's not a about supporting a logically consistent world of cause-and-effect with it's rule set.
>>43686640
Shadowrun or GURPS.
>>43686733
All human, no magic, no technomancers, no essence.
>>43686640
Corporation.
http://www.corpgame.com/
Exploitable, but a lot of fun.
>>43699566
>No Essence
Essence is a pretty good limit for just how many augs you can cram into your meatsack before dying.
>>43699736
Jenson is 99% bionics basically.
Wasn't he legally dead before the surgery or something?
>>43698480
>Fate is not a about supporting a logically consistent world of cause-and-effect with it's rule set.
It depends how you play it. If everyone at the tables agrees to the rules of the world you're playing in, and the GM enforces it, that's exactly how Fate is.
I always get frustrated with systems that have a particular world they try to simulate because there's inevitably some aspect of that world that doesn't suit the world we the players are actually trying to play in. Narrativist games move the simulatist aspect of RPGs purely into the meta of the game, which is much more flexible, rather than try to encapsulate it in the actual methodology of play.
Fuck me RPGs are a complicated subject.
>>43699769
He was still alive but bleeding from the glass wounds, gunshot wound and had some hematoma.
His limbs and organs were shot from the glass injuries.
>>43699769
>>43699736
Jensen is special. Same goes for the Dentons. Even in Deus Ex there is a limit of how much tech you can cram into yourself before dying.
>>43700039
Yeah, money, and access to a good cyberdoc who's willing to fix you up every time anything happens ever.
Essence as this artificial cap just makes it so you can't make a lot of interesting cyberpunk characters in Shadowrun. But that's fine, because Shadowrun isn't 'just' a cyberpunk setting, it's got fantasy and it's got a lot of other things thrown in as well.
>>43700111
>Yeah, money, and access to a good cyberdoc who's willing to fix you up every time anything happens ever.
No most people in Deus Ex do have a physical limit to the amount of augmentation they can tolerance and most need a steady supply of anti rejection drugs to get by.
It's not nearly as egregious as Essence is in shadowrun is but it is there in the setting.
>>43699919
Fate gets a lot of flack on /tg/ along with other narrative system out there. It's certainly not a bad game system at all but it's undeniably an abstract system intend for 'fudging' things if you forgive the pun.
Sure as you DM could establish some hard and fast ground rules for a the player but that's not what FATE was written for or playing it as written. It's playing some weird home brew game.
I don't know, is there a Fate tactical combat rule set out there?
>>43699919
>If everyone at the tables agrees to the rules of the world you're playing in, and the GM enforces it, that's exactly how Fate is.
This is the dumbest fucking thing I've heard all day.
The point of a system is to enforce the rules of the world. People DON'T all agree to "the rules of the world you're playing in," because everyone has a slightly different idea in mind of how the game world is going to work, because of unspoken differences in associations people have when you say key phrases ("rules-lite," "magical girl," "mecha," "superhero"). It's simply the nature of human communication to be imprecise.
>>43700998
>The point of a system is to enforce the rules of the world. People DON'T all agree to "the rules of the world you're playing in," because everyone has a slightly different idea in mind of how the game world is going to work
Yeah that.
Tight, clear and transparent rules are needed to run a fun and enjoyable game where everyone's playing on the same page. The whole purpose of an RPG to *be* that agreement for the GM and player.
>>43698480
Yeah I made a set of Augs for my cybernoir game based on augs from Invisible Inc. Augs mostly allowed you to do things you couldn't do rather than make you better at existing tasks.
Wireless Scanner lets you identify and hack electronics at a distance. Quantum Codebreaker lets you attempt to brute force encryption.
>>43701691
>Quantum Codebreaker lets you attempt to brute force encryption
Da cryptography.
On the matter of augs which Game do you think would handled them better for table top? The first Game where each aug and upgrade had found in world or the simplified system in HR where they were basically just skill points? (invisible war was sort of cross between both but we don't speak of that)
I would honestly suggest Shadowrun 4e with all the magic, nanotech, and technomancy cut out, and make getting limb-replacement augs and serious combat-relevant augmentations that don't look like augs is basically impossible. Eclipse Phase is too far into the nanotech future for its shit to make a lick of goddamn sense in a Human Revolution timeframe, and wouldn't make more than one lick of sense even in a J.C. Denton timeframe, which, hones tly, I wouldn't recommend over DXHR's timeframe.
I would also suggest giving Essence the old heave-ho, and instead playing up the fact that, for most people, getting augged means you're on
Neuropozyne for life, or at least that's what they expect. This would mean a Lifestyle cost increase, quite possibly a large one if they lack medical insurance or an employer who pays for it for them.
That having been said, as long as you're getting your no-po, there's basically no limit to the number of augs you can take. Remember the asshole in pic related? That fuckhole is pretty much all aug; look at him! That crazy motherfucker let them cut off his johnson for fuck's sake! He looks like he's basically a robot exoskeleton support chassis for human torso-cavity and headmeat.
So, you could ditch Essence, but unless you want to drop the bomb on the players that they've all somehow been mutated with Jensen-type evolved DNA, or are other survivors of whatever project produced him, or something you'll need to come up with rules for Darrow Deficiency Syndrome (link below,) whose symptoms include migraines, loss of control over implants, seizures, and potentially death.
http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Darrow_Deficiency_Syndrome
>>43702085
>On the matter of augs which Game do you think would handled them better for table top? The first Game where each aug and upgrade had found in world or the simplified system in HR where they were basically just skill points?
I should point out that in Human Revolution, Adam Jensen ALREADY HAD all the augs installed. They were just deactivated; the skillpoints were there to 'unlock' them, basically representing Adam learning to control them. Remember he went from completely unaugmented to having all of Sarif Industries' top-of-the-line black-ops-spec hardware installed. So they started him with shit like the arm swords and stuff switched off, so he could get time to use it.
In a tabletop game, I would say that it would be best to go with the normal Shadowrun conceit, in that if you want to install an augmentation, you need to have major surgery done by some people who know WTF they're doing. It thus becomes a matter of either acquiring the implant or paying for it, and then getting a doc to install it. If it's normal, civilian stuff, you can do this at any LIMB clinic, but if you want Milspec or better gear, you're going to need to either perform hits on high-end places to acquire them and then find someone who's willing to touch you with a ten-foot pole when you show up on their door with stolen black-ops augs, which probably means untrustworthy, mobbed-up assholes like Tong Si Hung, or getting in good with the likes of David Sarif or Zhao Yun Ru. That should not be something that a random simplebot like in the original DX could do; remember, those were nanotech-enhanced nano-implant packages.
And if you're thinking about getting in good with the likes of Zhao Yun Ru, remember that Jaron Namir >>43702140 worked for her, and fix your gaze upon his prominent, Johnsonless pubic region and its shiny chrome "waste port."
>>43702168
>Johnsonless pubic region and its shiny chrome "waste port."
Heh. Less yeah more of a man.
>I should point out that in Human Revolution, Adam Jensen ALREADY HAD all the augs installed. They were just deactivated; the skillpoints were there to 'unlock' them.
Well that's the official word on it ;), not that it isn't an reasonable enough explanation as any.
> J.C. Denton timeframe, which, hones tly, I wouldn't recommend over DXHR's timeframe.
Yeah as cool as the original is i'm leaned towards the HR simply cause it's closer to current day and most players are filthy casuals who only had played the first one anyway.
Might move the time line ahead another ten or twenty 20 years but. Can't say the world of tomorrow of 15 years from now leaves much room to play with.
>>43702168
It reminds me of the car industry. One of my colleagues has a car. He went for the service in a workshop. As he's a mechanic, he looked what the other guys were doing. All of a sudden he sees an option on the computer screen to increase the horsepower from 200 and something to 250hp. All with one push of a button (that is billed around 2000 bucks).
>>43702338
Really, I just me made me think on on disc DLC...
>>43702140
Eclipse Phase is pretty modular, and stuff like makers, resleeving, disembodied infomorph egos, etc.can easily be removed. For a Deus Ex game, you would have to remove some of the gear/skill options, and refluff the some of the backgrouds, and it would work fine.
>>43686640
Traveller. All the elements of sci fi and no fantasy.
Plus you can augment your characters a la jensen. Dermal armor, neural comms, etc
>>43702772
Yeaaaah, but a lot of the stuff would require basically more refluffing than it's worth. Going with SR4 would be better.
>>43702806
Not really. The only thing you would have to refluff is the starting backgrounds, and there you would only have to change a couple of skills, or only the name (since everyone is from Earth).
>>43702836
Eeeeeeeeeh... I dunno. I mean, how would augs like medichines, cortical stacks, repair spray, fractal digits, etc, be refluffed?
You'd have an easier time starting from Shadowrun, I think. Also, Eclipse Phase is designed with the setting conciet that death is but a temporary setback in most cases, and can actually be advantageous in others, and is in almost all cases temporary.
>>43686640
Pretty easy to do with Cyberpunk 2020. Just remove or reduce humanity loss due to augmentation. An option would be to replace humanity loss by increased Neuropozine need.
Jensen would probably have following cyberware:
Linear implant
>Cyberlegs with standard feet, EMP shielding and cyberarmor (2x)
>Cyberarms with standard hands, EMP shielding and cyberarmor (2x) - eventually massive myomer or hydraulic rams (to destroy walls)
>Subdermal armor (torso)
>Subdermal armor (head)
>Neural processor
>Interface jack
>Reflex booster (Kerenzikov I or II)
>Pain editor
>Cyber Optics or OptiShield
>Image enhancement
>Time Square Marquee +
>Anti-Dazzle (flash suppressor)
>Low light vision
>Cyber Audio
>Level editor
>Radiolink
>Voice stress analyzer
>Implanted wireless cyberdeck
>Neural bridge
>Wolfers (2x)
>Nano-Surgeons (faster recovery)
>Nasal filter or Oxygen reserve
>Vein clips (reduce bleeding)
This would give about 100 points of humanity loss. We could imagine that 10 points of lost humanity would require a monthly dose of Neuropozine that costs 100eb (shortages can increase prices massively). Jensen would require to spend around 12'000b per year just for his Neuropozine. Failure to take it would give 1 point of damage per 10 points of humanity loss (MC doesn't count) per day. In our case, Jensen would take 10 points of damage per day or something like that.
>>43703062
Woah good stating.
Well apart from the 80s Glam rock and dail up Internet, Cyberpunk 2020 has definitely got the tone right. On the whole how is the system?
>>43703106
Character creation is simple and fast. It uses a class-system, that you better ditch (unless you play with noobs). Retards find combat complex, normal people have no problems with it. Combat is deadly if you use large weapons or reduce protection levels of soft armor and skin weave. Netrunning works but is geared to 80's style cyberspace hacking.
>>43703106
It's easy and fast, quite deadly as it is (if you want more crunch, try the 2013 version which is the first edition, it has three booklets, one of them being Friday Night Firefight, and it deals with location-based wounds and no hitpoints, so more bookkeeping).
It works, it's pretty fun to play, but it's really easy to minmax.
I can create tons of different characters, since I know how this shit works after playing for a few years, but I know your regular rollplayers will probably always do the same shit.
Common houserules are : all armors (which do damage reduction) are halved, Netrunning is either a skill roll or done through roleplaying and ad lib since the original system is essentially a dungeon crawling simulator that is kinda interesting if done right, but really slow and crunch-heavy.
I also usually get rid of Beauty and Movement which serve no actual purpose (well, Movement is useful is you use a grid, but I don't really see the point in that kind of game).
The book's layout sucks, but it's not hard to get into it. The writing is cheesy but nice, and really easy to read. Feel free to take what you like and discard the rest. It is VERY 80s, even more so than 1E/2E Shadowrun.
Splatbooks usually suck, except Grimm's Cybertales (stress rules, madness rules, psychic powers and *cough* vampires/hoodoo magick if that's your thing) which is a great addition, and it comes with nice adventures like Necrology, a tryptic that deals with...well, Death and stuff, Sentient AIs, the dangers of cyberware, essentially the grim darkness of cyberpunk, if you want a really noir-ish game. Now for Deus Ex you might want to pass on that, depends on your tastes.
If you have any questions, I can answer them as "A guy who ran and played a lot of Cyberpunk 2020 in his life".
Also if you want a rules-lighter version, Cybergeneration (think Akira's gangboys pre-collapse) has rules for playing adult edgerunners, which is where the Interface skill is a regular skill.
>>43703382
cool, i've read the 2020 book but never got a chance to play.
Sure to check out Cybertales, the core book very 'street' but deus ex got the weird stuff going on in the background.
As for hacking, Hmmm… the actually HR mini game might be I think worth simplifying and translating to tabletop (don't know if you played)
It's not full lawn mower man net running but not just roll to hack either.
>>43703473
I played both (good) Deus Ex games yeah.
Might be a good idea. One nice house-ruled system I saw on the internet is called Net.Run.
Basically your hacking skill is divided into mini-skills called Commands and Targets, and you do stuff by adding them together like :
>I [search] for a [vehicle/car] system that has the same ID as what we've seen in the file, can I find that guy's car? (Ocean's Eleven)
>I [intrude] into this guy's [cyberware/optics] and try to see what he sees. (Ghost in the Shell SaC)
Also rules for Cyberbrains if you want fun stuff with illusion, mind-wiping, brain-locks and more out there stuff are available around the web.
>>43703621
From there you can add various grades of firewall that serve as defense for more or less stuff, programs that serve as Matrix-only stats (just came up with that one but it'd work easily, the system is really easy to hack, pun intended).
>>43703106
To continue >>43703062
In term of armament Jensen would use probably:
Eagle Tech Striker (Crossbow)
Sternmeyer P35 or P41 (Zenith pistol)
Nova Citygun (Diamondback .357 revolver)
Techtronica Volt Pistol or Techtronica 20 Microwaver (P.E.P.S.)
Arasaka WMA (TMP-18 submachine gun)
Arasaka WCAA (Widowmaker shotgun/CAW)
FN RAL (FR-27 assault rifle)
Arasaka WSSA (Longsword Whisperhead)
Barrett-Arasaka Light 20 (Longsword anti-material rifle)
Constitution Arms Cyclone (M404)
M-212 (G-87)
Militech Laser Canon (LS-66)
Militech RPG-A or HLAW (329 MPRS)
More gear can be found here http://neuro.portalseeker.com/weapons.pdf
As armor, he'll most likely will wear a flak vest (visible armor) or an armored trench-coat (hidden armor).
Security guards will most likely simply wear a kevlar t-shirt or a flak vest and a helmet. High security guards wear Metal Gear armor and elite troops have access to Militech M96 Ghost Suits, etc. Corporate soldiers are usually augmented, especially elite units like Ogres (armored cyberlimbs, massive myomer, linear frame, cyberarmor...) and Sneakers (Corvette cyberlegs, motion detectors, radars, level editors, cyberoptics...).
>>43703621
>I played both (good) Deus Ex games yeah.
Ha. Invisible war isn't bad it's just that streamlined to hell and back on top of various other niggles. Even at its worst it's still depressingly rank-and-file above most games.
>>43693593
The conflict between Style Over Substance and the gritty combat rules has frustrated me many a time as well. It just doesn't make sense, those are distinctly opposed play styles.
>>43693662
>GURPS is pretty good, FATE does a better job at being grounded
Are you on drugs? FATE being more grounded than GURPS?
GURPS is one of the most grounded, realistic and persnickety systems ever devised, while FATE is a bunch of narrative bullshit.
I say this as someone who doesn't like either system.
>>43704642
Style over substance doesn't mean that the characters are supposed to act stupidly. It's not Rule of Cool. It simply means that the characters' style and attitude matters (what they wear, how they talk...) and that they aren't suppose to look like losers when they fail at something.
Nobody will take your solo seriously if he's overweight, dresses like an average Japanese salaryman, and talks like a pussy while staring at his feet. Instead, your character has to look aggressive - on the edge - and act cool (executing a well prepared plan is cool, running like panicked chickens because you're losing the firefight you just started is uncool).
If we take Deus Ex as example, we can say that Jensen has style, so does the ironic and cynical Pritchard. They talk the talk and walk the walk.
>>43704654
The GURPS character sheet looks like my tax declaration.
>>43686640
I'd do GURPS.
GURPS can be bad without adequately trained players though.
>>43706172
What adequate training should players undergo before playing GURPS?
>>43706202
Actually reading the basic set, with you there to handle any questions.
Like, y'know, every other system.
>>43686640
GURPS by far and away does it best. Check here for most of what you'd need in way of cybernetics and gear: https://edgerunners.obsidianportal.com/
Shadowrun's system gets in the way because it's simply not that great, though it's quite easy to make Essence work. Instead of it being a hardcap, you make their Essence loss actually represent their monthly neuropozyne costs. Neurpozyne is noted to be extremely expensive, so a scale such as $1000*(Essence Loss) per month - or even higher - could work.
Without magic, the augmented utterly dominate the mundane - which is the whole point of course.
>>43706172
Nah, it's okay with total newbies - I've done just that a few times, with more complex settings than Deus Ex. They just have to be new because of actually being new, rather than because they're lazy and dumb.
You print out a cheatsheet like for any other game and take it slow for a few sessions.
>>43700035
IIRC Jensen actually only needed one new arm. There was a clause in his contract that allowed serif to cut off his still good arm and both legs.
>>43700352
You're wrong. There is no limit to how much you can augment. The only limitation is that you need to keep taking the anti-rejection drugs. But that has nothing to do with how many augs you have. The only person who doesn't need those drugs is Jensen, because he was grown in a lab, in exactly the same way that the Denton's were grown to be more receptive of nanoaugmentation.
>>43704002
Yeah, I really enjoyed it. The reason it gets the hate isn't really because it's a bad game in and of itself, it's because it was one of the first examples of a PC game series being consolized. Which is honestly something that applies just as much to Human Revolution. We've simply gotten used to it now.
>>43708765
>THIS
"He's no good to me like this"
"He doesn't need that"
https://youtu.be/XIqJaT3cvf8?t=41s
Sarif done carved you up like a turkey for his jollies.
