THE /comp/ COMPOSITION CHALLENGE #3 METERS July 8st - July 15rd

Compose a short piece (around 1 to 2 minutes) with three distinct meters in any instrumentation. Treat these time signatures as meters, rather than just throwing in a different time signature for a bar or two for phrasing purposes. Consider making your meters distinct by considering whether the time signatures you choose are duple or triple; simple, compound or complex/irregular.
BONUS CHALLENGE: Make at least one section of your piece polyrhythmic/polymetric

Post WIPs, talk about things to consider when changing meters, post pieces that have strong metric changes, post polyrhythmic pieces.

Is there anything that catches a composer's attention visually more than a pic of sheet music?

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>tfw the b below middle c plays really loud on your keyboard sometimes no matter how hard you press it
It's jarring to be playing quietly then suddenly hear the b pound at me and drown everything else out

So, I'm trying to do a Toccata for the challenge, but here's my problem:

I've all kinds of ideas for a Toccata in minor key, but I'd actually want it to be in a major key (like widor, Bach f maj, some Pachelbel Toccata). The vibe just feels so different, and I'll have to mess around on the instrument for a bit first.

If all goes well, I'd end up with a piece that could be played as a wedding march or Introitus.

>>66278844
great opportunity to practice transposition

>>66278844
>A2 on my synthesizer is missing the fundamental and only plays all the overtones, regardless of the patch you're on
I really don't understand how this happens, and it looks like I'm the only person this happens to

So is the ITAOTS compilation ready yet? Sorry for pressuring challengeguy to do it, but I'm really curious.

>>66278834
>THE /comp/ COMPOSITION CHALLENGE #3 METERS July 8st - July 15rd
>8st
>15rd
I don't know why this bothers me so much, even if I know it's probably because of copy-paste.

>>66279684
sorry, not too many people gave me midi so I've been manually inputting notes whilst watching youtube videos
>>66279704
<:^)

>>66280621
7/8 variation guy here. I posted the midi in the thread, did you get it? I cba to make a new BS email address for shenanigans.

>>66280880
Yeah I got yours, thanks

>>66278840
Yes, a paycheck.

>>66278844
>tfw E3 is broken and have to press it much harder than every other key to make a sound at all

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Question from last thread:

Can any of you who know a little theory comment on the merits of this guy as a composer?

https://www.youtube.com/c/sophiamusik/videos

He has been linked to Cicada 3301, but nothing conclusive has come out of it. Can you detect musical clues?

>>66281387
what is that even

>>66281940
An ARG.

>>66281387
I looked at that last thread. What sort of thing would we be looking for? From what I heard they were all (well, both) nice short pieces.

>>66283039
Any formal anomalies? Patterns that allude to famous works, perhaps? Interesting mathematics? This kind of thing.

How you rate him as a composer, technically?

>>66283039
This piece was singled out on a website that claims his music plays in the room where Botticelli's Birth of Venus is displayed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0eeidrMxPk

Might be a good starting point.

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Just a fun short jazz rendition I wrote in 20 minutes. Nothing too serious, but I kinda like how the melody turned out. May "borrow" it in the future.

https://clyp.it/htv5xioa

>>66284139
Forgot to mention it's a rendition of Linkin Park's Crawling.

So what's the deal with the weekly challenge? We send them in and a winner's chosen or is it just an individual challenge for fun?
Also what are WIPs?

>>66284139
I think you need to proof read that harmony, bro. E#maj7?

>>66284325
It's an individual challenge and all the scores will be patched together.

WIP means work in progress I guess. So scores that you are working on?

>>66284372
Yeah, my bad. Is just supposed to be an Emaj7, thanks.

Would any of you guys be interested in a separate more lax stream? The other stream is amazing and props go to the OP for making it, but just for my own sake and productivity sometimes I'll stream myself composing (to myself lmfao) but I'm fairly versed in theory up to level III and would love to take questions about what I'm doing while I'm streaming etc

Just trying to help anybody out desu

>>66284325
it's just an individual challenge. I'm not going to stitch together this weeks since it's not a piece designed around that. I mean I could I guess, as a show case kind of thing. But it's just more to challenge yourself, there's no winners.

WIP stands for work in process, just to get feedback as you write

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>>66283275
>Any formal anomalies? Interesting mathematics?
Honestly I think the problem is that I'm too open to such things and they don't stick out to me too much.

Well, my inner overanalysist is stirring, so I think I might take a look.

Still, though, while researching Thomas Schoenberger I just keep finding reasons to lose respect for him. His website just seems carefully worded to annoy me.
>describing yourself as a polymath
I mean, that's just kind of conceited
>music for infants
I can totally understand this, his passion is his passion. It's really just that the association of the words "classical" and "infants" seriously annoys me on a base level
>Using original compositions employing polyphonic melodies reminiscent of both Mozart and Bach
>polyphony
>Mozart
I mean it could just be they're polyphonic melodies which happen to be reminiscent of Mozart's highly-homophonic music, but

>>66285110
I don't know if that page was written by him, but looks like standard marketing.

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>>66285110
>close bond with your infant
>Mozart effect
>music, mathematics, and chess

>naming his son fucking Wolfgang

Okay, I think I'm way too biased against him at this point to really judge his music carefully.

>>66284858
i'd be up for it senpai

>>66285208
C'mon, you can't be dissuaded from an interesting puzzle by these things.

>>66284858
I'd love to see that.

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>>66284858
Do it.

I have nothing related to use as pic so I'll post something unrelated.

When would it be? The weekends in general are a better time for the average person's schedule, but paradoxically weekdays seem to be when /comp/ is most active.

>>66285347
>>66285771
>>66286266
Cool, didn't think I'd have that much interest. I do it randomly (since I compose in a pretty non-scheduled way) so my proposition is to just post the link up and post in the thread if I am streaming. I'll be doing some stuff here in about an hour or so if any of you guys want to try and catch that.

Otherwise, if you guys feel it'd be better to stream at a particular day and at a certain hour then let me know. Either works desu.

>>66286447
Could ya post the link now senpai, just so I can be notified

>>66285712
I mean, I also have no idea where I might start.

So how did this guy get linked to 3301 in the first place? I feel like that would probably be important to know.

>>66286731
Yeah absolutely

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1-TVkjyqNNsDMMQ3NhWkQw/live

>>66286750
It's been a while but it was the relationship between some musical clues and stuff you could find on his channel, including, but not limited to, upload dates coinciding with or anticipating 3301's events. His 'about' page used to contain a reference to BWV 1033, claiming it wasn't authored by Bach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flute_Sonata_in_C_major,_BWV_1033

It has changed, but you can still see similar comments of his here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph_ERXCaBKg (scroll down)

>>66286750
>>66286890
See also the message about BWV 1033 here: http://www.clevcode.org/cicada-3301/

So have any of you been able to get your pieces performed? To me it's always been a dream.

>>66287099
Part of our composition papers at uni involved having pieces played. I also entered all the competitions I could find, and had quite a few pieces played from those. We organised some concerts, had pieces played in them (as well as playing myself as part of the ensemble).
We also have annual composition workshops where each student gets a piece performed and recorded, I try to get along most years, but its pretty intense so I only tend to go every other year.

Any good composition course should include having pieces played by real performers, so I'd recommend studying at university/college if you want to live that dream.

>>66287099
It's great, a really valuable part of going to a music college.

If you're an instrumentalist yourself, expect to get recruited into playing other people's compositions as well. (If you're a good instrumentalist, expect to have quite a busy schedule in just the composition concert alone.) Well, that's also educational, and fun.

>>66284139
If you're still here, as the bones I like it, I'll give it a play when I get home, but you need some serious editing and revision on the piece. For example, this was mentioned before - E#maj7? Not only is this an absurd notation, it's a b9maj chord, which needs some serious reharm to work, or it needs to be in passing. Are you sure you didn't mean Emaj7? There's all sorts of notational errors other than that, too.
>4th bar; F#7b5. Mixo/dom chords can't do b5, they sound way too much like something else. Not to mention, in the key of E, F# needs to be dorian, which would be F#mb5. This would work.
>You proceeded to do both errors two more times. You need to review notation
I do like the comp though, don't get me wrong. Your lead sheet seems to be well thought out. All of your chords are painfully boring though. In the future, you don't need to put down notes for the piano player. In fact, it's detrimental. Any pianist that can't read chord charts fluently, proficiently, and with ease is not worth your time. The piano comp on here has no syncopation and has a worrying lack of 3rds in the chords. It would be much better to give the pianist the chords and have them do as they will.

>t. a jazz pianist

>>66278792
>bach
>industrious
try fucking skinny puppy if u want industrious and not this christ awful harpsicord pussy shit wewew hey bach why dont u take a harpsichord and make a harpsinoose and fuckin harpsihang urself my man

>>66287507
forgegt ableton
forteg logic pro tools
forget frooty lops
music college: its the #$1 most expensive daw of all time

>>66288371
lmao why don't you just steal all of that software? audionews.org is the shit. I've pirated literally thousands of dollars worth of software from them

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>>66288402

>>66288432
lmao if they wanted to go after me they would just ask my ISP you mongoloid. the government hasn't gone after pirates in years, and hasn't even attacked uploaders consistently in a long time.

>t. an uploader and cracker on a vidya release group

>>66288485
They could go after the site, dipshit. You could've ruined it for everyone.

>>66288574
the site's been up for years and is well known. I'm pretty sure it even has its own subreddit, and is mentioned constantly on tracker forums

>I share a board with people this stupid

>>66288271
Oh, also forgot to add this, you may need to play the full chords and see for yourself as I could be wrong, but I'm like 80% sure that following a m7b5 chord with a I is a bad idea. In all the standards I've played, ii [m7b5] is always followed by V7, as per standard ii V I. There is, of course, no set rules though. You could do Coltrane subs, use vi instead of ii, etc. but going from ii to I is usually not musically kosher.

I hate these useless threads. Could you please go back to making "Classical music" threads?

>>66288812
Why would we want to circlejerk over famous composers and become /classical/ rockists when we could improve our own skill at composing?

>>66288812
shut up faggot just get out, go back to k-pop threads

>>66288812

>>66285110
>>66284139
>>66286890
>>66288271
>>66288727

just because you don't understand actual theory doesn't make a thread useless

>>66288371
Composing for someone gives you direct experience with how the instrument works. How the instrumentalist plays their music, how they express, articulate, shape the sounds you're writing. It's invaluable as a composer

It's not a digital audio workstation, so if you happen to go to a music school for this purpose please don't treat the performers as if they're a digital audio workstation. It'll end badly for your piece.

>you will never write something as good as jeux d'eau
why should i even bother still composing

>>66289009
Composing is always more fun when you stop comparing yourself to the greats.

>>66288812
Why on Earth would a jazz musician go back to making classical music threads? Especially when there's already a /classical/ thread still up?

>>66289137
Since this threads started appearing, everytime I search for "classical" this thread pops up instead of /classical/. Yes, there is a /classical/ right now, but there aren't any normally.

>>66289233
It's in the paste. If you search jazz this will pop up as well, because it's in the paste

>>66289233
why are you so concerned about whether people make /comp/ or /classical/ threads, especially since you are clearly not well educated on either subject

>>66289278
kek

>>66289278
>>66289303
I don't know, really. I don't even listen to music. Success, anon. You will be a gr8 musician some day by circlejerking with retards in here : )

how do i write for ensembles/ i notice a lot of the time different sections will rest and the other will take the melody and they will switch. like the french horns play the melody with string and occasional flute accompaniment then the oboes and clarinets take over with the strings. however sometimes i hear the sections blend. how do i know who to give the melody too and how to blend it?

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tried to improvise some counterpoint for the first time. didn't really go so well.

https://clyp.it/tfb1bzeg

>>66289450
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGj0vnMgRsw
Sounds really similar to this

>>66289392
Besides the purely practical aspect of giving players rest, there's no easy answer to this, anon. The shortest answer is that you must gain personal experience with it - that is, by writing music that trades the melodies around yourself and find approaches that YOU feel work. You will find patterns and rules of thumb as you go along, but don't misunderstand: it's a personal thing, and different composers have wildly different ways of doing things. At first, you can try emulating your favorite composers, and then try and do something different and see what happens.

>>66289450
play with a metronome more, your timekeeping is lacking, as is your syncopation. My favorite exercise to help with syncopation is pretty simple, but really hard and effective for me. Take a simple standard with easy ii V I progs, and do a very simple bassline in the left hand with chords in the right. Once comfortable, do the bassline and chords syncopated. Once you're comfortable with that, switch your left and right hand. Do the bassline with the right (on the upper part of the keybed) and chords with the left. It's absurdly hard, but force yourself to stay in time and do lots of practice. good work though

>>66289486
yea kind of. i mean it wasn't the most complex scale, just wanted to start getting a feel for it.

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>>66286890
>>66286958
>looking further into it
>open something in a new tab
>power outage
Spooky 2bh

Honestly, the more I look into this the more I doubt it. I'm even beginning to doubt the original message sent to that you linked blog (I mean it makes considerable reference to "false 3301s". Maybe it's an elaborate joke), but one thing I think I can be sure of is that Thomas Schoenberger is not connected, and is just courting a cryptanalyst audience.

>a quote from someone else on his blog
>"But what really fires our imagination is the sheer mystery of Schoenberger’s YouTube channel. Many of the videos seem interconnected, weaving a melodic ocean of sound and image that defy the staid state of Classical Music today. This is the new Beethoven of classical music, using graphic images as thunder, lighting and rain, a musical Moses, urging us to some netherworld promised land."
>link to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWVxd17VRf4
It's as though his intent actually is to annoy me.

I still have unanswered questions regarding this:
>Bach’s hand can surely be sensed, too, in the fully written-out parts of the first Minuet which bears relationship to a movement of a concerto by Bach’s Merseburg contemporary, Christoph Förster
I've found academic sources saying the same, and weirdly not one of them states which Forster concerto it is. But in an academic paper mainly concerning CPE Bach the following is written
>at least movement IV reworks a preexistent keyboard composition by Christoph Förster
This is in reference to the claim that the BWV 1033 is in fact written by CPE and/or his elder as composition practice, though. Meanwhile the email to the blog reads
>It was composed by a man named Christoph. CPE misidentified the piece as his fathers..Pity. CPE was a teen, so forgive him.
So does that mean Forster reworked his own keyboard concerto and then CPE later misidentified it as JS's?

One other thing I can say is holy shit did CPE Bach have horrible handwriting.

>>66290922
Seriously, though, that comment was a lot more revealing than any of my skimming of academic papers.

>someone complains about how boringly the harpsichordist is improvising the figured bass
>replies that the harpsichord line is bad because it was written by Christoph [Forster]
>(the half-of-a-movement that academics theorize was related to Forster doesn't even have any figured bass in it - the harpsichord part is actually fully written)
>someone mentions the obvious, that who wrote the part and how the figured bass player improvises the part are two separate things
>replies with a dash of Navy Seal in there, continues arguing about the essence of Bach's style, claims he's studied figured bass (using the synonym found on Wikipedia to establish cred)

bump
>>66289392
Fuck, there was a great video analyzing a Mozart chamber piece about this, trying my best to find it.

>>66289392
>>66292397
Ah, here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6umf9Jvkt34

It's a great video on string quartet writing, and ensemble writing in general.

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decided i need to start practicing my composing, so I tried to write a piano piece. What did i do wrong? What did i do write? Any suggestions?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1efyBut9HxZ
How do I write a better bass clef?

>>66292489
nice, write more

>>66292489
You need more harmonic variation. You play a Dm chord twice in the first section, and no other chord. There are hints of the V in the second and third bars, but no arpeggios or anything. Try to play more arpeggios and broken chords, and with a harmonic progression. It's rather difficult to tell the meaning of each section with no strong harmonic reference. That's one of the ways you can make the bass better. I like the counterpoint just looking at it, but I don't really havetime to analyze it.

>>66292489
>What did i do write?
I don't tend to correct people on their typos because that's just uselessly condescending, but in this case I was genuinely confused for a second as to what you meant, because "write" appears two other times in your post.

What you did objectively wrong:
There's a spelling mistake in measure two, it should be Eb, not D#.
(that's about it, unless you count not following Fux as an objective mistake.)

It sounded quite interesting. The whole syncopation and arriving at cadences a step ahead was cool. The melody needs a lot of work, but there are some principles you seem to understand already - motivic recycling and sequences are used (although often they were used without modification, to the detriment of the harmony), and both sections have a nice, well-defined contour, of a mountain in this case. On the whole, well, it's obviously a beginner's piece as you say, but it's clear there's musicality there.

>How do I write a better bass clef?
I'm not sure you want to go between block chord and single notes so suddenly. Measure 6 is the worst offender of this, but even in the first measure something sounded off about it. Block chords are one thing and single notes are another thing, and it sounds like a dress suddenly going from lace to leather if you use them together too clumsily. (On the other hand, if you do so deftly, it might sound like some exotic material created from lace interspersed with leather. But, uh, you might want to go to /fa/ for that instead)

Also, in the second section it got oddly boring. If you have a bass part just as active as the melody in the first part, a listener will get used to it and the sudden half notes will sound odd, especially considering the level of activity in the melody seems relatively unchanged.

Finally, read Fux's Counterpoint, it's surprisingly easy and will help you a lot. Note that a lot of the rules established by it are pedagogical in nature, and just suggestions in actual composing.

how do i use counterpoint without sounding like baroque music. i really dont like most baroque music and i get nothing out of writing in that style

>>66293728
Just look at Classical and most Romantic music, and a lot of 20th century as well.

>>66293828
any 20th century or medieval examples? those are my favourite eras

>>66292574
>>66292976
>>66293615
Thanks for the help.
>>66293615
I don't understand what half those words mean, I guess i've got homework.

>>66294116
Er, sorry, I can explain what things mean if necessary.

>>66294236
I'm not quite sure I understand the motivic recycling. Which measures show motivic recycling?

>>66293912
Well, this fugue by Hindemith doesn't adhere to the exact rules specified (pretty obviously), but it sort of exemplifies it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Sn-KzsV94
(starts at 14:57)
You can hear the spirit of the law, as it were, in it - all parallel thirds, sixths, octaves, etc. are just one voice, and multiple voices are born out of contrary motion.

That said, Faure's Elegie is a lot more what I had in mind, how counterpoint works in homophony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hUJKqHTOEI
(Well, I don't like this cellist's expression too much but it has the sheet music)
Faure's melodic lines are often hidden inside of block chords, but they're clearly audible, and for the most part move contrapuntally with each other. (Also, this is a lovely and well-composed piece, and you should listen to it in general)

>>66294455
Ah, right, I just generically meant that motifs are used and then used again. There's probably a better term for that.

The most blatant example would be measure 9, with what the melody does there. In measure 10, the melody is the exact same thing, transposed a perfect fourth up. In measure 11, the melody starts doing the same thing transposed another perfect fourth up, and though the eighth notes change in contour, it's still the same rhythm, two quarter notes followed by four eighth notes. So the motif is recycled like that, but changed in interesting ways.

Another example is measure 1 and measure 4. This time it's not a sequence, at all, but the rhythm is still the same, and the general contour is similar - lowest note on beat one, highest note on beat three and then it starts going back down on beat four.

>>66295127
Thanks for the help man

>>66288485
>audionews.org
How should I go about downloading software online like Finale 2015? Do I need a proxy to start or a virus protection software first?

Can you rec contemporary tonal electronic music with elaborated development?

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Hey, /comp/, I want to to go about learning to compose rnb/soul/ similar to Frank Ocean, Miguel, Jame Blake, and all those endless pop songs from beyonce to kpop, that make use of this colorful style. I've only learned traditional tonal music thus far, and don't know where to begin. This kind of music is really mysterious to me, and those most I can do is transcribe stuff by ear very in a very shoddy manner.

>>66295630
Learn jazz harmony. RnB and soul all evolved from/with jazz. Pian is the best instrument to learn for those genres. Are you a /prod/ucer as well?

>>66295715
>RnB and soul all evolved from/with jazz
thanks, I did realize they were related, but I wasn't sure. So a jazz foundation can help me in learning rnb?
>Pian is the best instrument to learn for those genres
that's my main instrument
>Are you a /prod/ucer as well?
Yes here are some beats/musical ideas from random rnb chord progressions and tonal trends in the genre that I managed to transcribe.
https://clyp.it/sivv535k
https://clyp.it/gowlbwfi
https://clyp.it/fadrkxqm
https://clyp.it/fo1pre4t

I have no idea why or how they work though. For example, in the first beat I hear this progression all over the place in rnb, especially in songs by Lido, such as in his song titled money: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoDwzWbqPEk#t=17s
I find there are a ton of chords that are actuall two chords stackedo on top of each other and also lots of 9ths and m11ths.

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Which program will let me do the following?

>Insert a .PDF of sheet music
>It turns it into editable notes
>I can just edit the clef, and it automatically adjusts all the notes for me

I need to sight read a lot of stuff in Treble, but it's so much easier to read in Bass cleff for my instrument. While I need to work on reading Treble, for now I'd just like to "translate" into Bass clef really quickly for many pieces.

Will you ever be able to write effectively for piano without being really good at it?

>>66296341
>I find there are a ton of chords that are actuall two chords stackedo on top of each other and also lots of 9ths and m11ths.
This is a prime tenant of jazz harmony, though you usually don't think of them as "two chords stacked on to each other".

That progression, and probably all progressions you'll find in R&B and soul, is a variation on the ii-V-I progression, the basis of jazz harmony (and again, R&B and soul)

If you're a producer looking to make R&B/soul, I advise you to again look at jazz harmony. I'm not much for percussion myself, but considering contemporary R&B is influenced by funk/disco/disco, I suggest you look into those genres. Maybe learn a little Latin percussion, some reggae, for that extra bit of spice. Syncopation is the main aspect of most of these styles. Good luck.

>>66296463
No program does that. You'll have to transcribe it

>>66296589
why wouldn't you?

>>66296697
Because you'd have a better understanding of capabilities and it would be easier to write fast scalar stuff

>>66296783
even if you were right, that wouldn't mean you can't 'write effectively' for the piano with basic skills

how many composers play all the instruments they write well for?

and a piece can be beautiful and easy

>>66288342
Bach was an organist anon. And yes he was industrious. Over 1000 published pieces, some over 2 hours long.

>>66289392
Study orchestration. Samuel Adler's book on the subject is excellent.

>>66293912
Bartoks string quartets, and his music for strings percussion and celesta. The latter actually starts with a fugue.
Renaissance music is full of counterpoint. Look at the scores of Palestrina, Lassus, Victoria, Josquin, Tallis, etc.

>>66295342
Those are some tough criteria, closest I can think of is Tristan Murail, who uses electronic instruments and favors the harmonic series. Check out L'esprit des dunes.

>>66296589
Study lots of piano scores, work out the limitations and possibilites of the instrument. Work with pianists and talk to a lot of pianist about your work. Over the years you will improve.

>>66296689
just wanted to say thanks for the advice, if you're still here anon.
really appreciate it, Sorry I didn't reply earlier.
I definitely will look into jazz, it would seem that I have been underestimating it. And also thanks for the suggestion on the percussion genres, I love all of those and study them for my beats especially reggea and funk as I hear today's music being really half-time and bass heavy

>>66288271
Thanks, I didn't even realize I screwed up the chord name for the F#-7b5, it wasn't supposed be dominant chord.

> All of your chords are painfully boring though.

I need some help with this. All of the pianists that I played with played at least 6 notes per chord, but I don't understand what the most efficient way to move voices when playing 6 notes.

I know the rhythm is boring. These drafts are just for chord practice.

>>66298048
>6 notes per chord

Well, an easy way would be to double the bass note 8vb, and double the highest (melody) note 8vb and play the rest of the chord between latter ones. And as of melody, just move it in octaves and fill in the rest of the chord as they come. Also, worry less about parallels, since the right hand is playing one voice (which consists of chords), rather than different voices in counterpoint.

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I want to write glorious pop tunes like Max Martin. What's his secret?

>>66298471
What's your favorite Max Martin tune?

>>66298471
>What's his secret?
Good chord progressions, immaculate modulations using pivot chords, Great vocal harmonies, exceptional production, and very careful wordsetting.

>>66298500
i really really like his early work with britney
that one taio cruz track is gorgeous too

>>66298503
i was studying some sheet music of his songs and I can see what you're saying

>pivot chords
what are these though?

>>66298582
Ralph Murphy teaches a few tricks to write hits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wBOUJ5Mbrk

Are jazz lick books a thing? Like, a book of licks you can use over certain chords.

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>>66298582
>pivot chords
>what are these though?
A chord that is common to 2 (or more) keys

Look at pic related. if you want to get from E minor to D Major, you could use a G Major chord, or a B minor chord, as they both exist in both keys. Once you hit the pivot chord, you can start using chords from the new key and it will sound more natural.

>>66298928
Yes, there are plenty books like that.
This website has plenty and it's FREE:

http://mattwarnockguitar.com/jazz-guitar-licks

But I would heavily recommend you to come up with your own ideas, because being a copycat is lame.

>>66298958
Diatonic modulation, right?

>>66298961

Not exactly copying, I'm just curious whether this kind of stuff exists. Also doesn't hurt modifying some licks to suit me ..

>>66298961
You got on for the blues?

>>66299196
>You got on for the blues?

Say no more senpai

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1KatY0mkiRG

>>66299069
"Keys" usually refers to diatonic yeah. nobody really notices modulation in atonal music, because there is no tonal center to become comfortable with in the first place. Modal music would be the only other option, which would still function pretty much the same as diatonic, but with the modes forming the different chords, instead of either major or minor chords.

There are a few other options like quartal hexachordal and octatonic harmony, as well as messiaens modes of limited transposition, but they're pretty rare and more for advanced modulators

>>66299541
>instead of either major or minor chords.
instead of either major or minor *scales

Since we're on the subject of modes and scales in general

I'm using this odd scale, A B C D# E F# G# A, almost by accident. The first measure, which basically inspired the rest of what I have so far, manages to use every scale degree once. Does anyone know interesting details about this scale, how it's used, if it's used often at all?

>>66299960
Its F# minor pentatonic with a G#, and a few other more exotic scales. Exactly matches the G# eight tone spanish scale

http://www.scales-chords.com/fscale_res_en.php?rn1=A&rn2=B&rn3=C&rn4=C%23%2FDb&rn5=E&rn6=F%23%2FGb&rn7=F%23%2FGb&rn8=&rn9=&normal=1&greek=1&greekalt=1&etnic=1&c1=&t1=&c2=&t2=&c3=&t3=

>>66300133
Your scale includes C# and not D#.

http://www.scales-chords.com/fscale_res_en.php?rn1=A&rn2=B&rn3=C&rn4=D%23%2FEb&rn5=E&rn6=F%23%2FGb&rn7=G%23%2FAb&rn8=A&rn9=&normal=1&greek=1&greekalt=1&other=1&etnic=1&c1=&t1=&c2=&t2=&c3=&t3=

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Quick question about avoid notes, they are supposed to be applied mostly to chord tones are they? Are they also applied to the melodic line? I wouldn't imagine so?

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>>66300164
I have failed at using the internet. please forgive me

>>66299541
Yeah, I was assuming that in pop music, pivot chords appear in a diatonic context. Haven't met a messaien mode in popular music yet, but then again, I don't consume much pop music

>>66300847
They really don't, though, at least not often. Direct, sudden modulation is the norm in pop music

>>66301255

Yup straight modulation up two semitones after the end of a chorus, and then repeating the chorus again in the new key is pretty common.

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>>66301298
>Yup straight modulation up two semitones after the end of a chorus

One of my triggers.

>>66301255
max martin does modulation pretty well iirc

>>66296463
>>66296689
It does exist. There are third-party software for Sibelius like PhotoScore for ages, and apparently, the new Finale version will have similar funcitonality as well.

>>66288898
I agree with you 100% anon. not theory junkies are so stingy about it just a few. guess they don't understand the word "theory".

>>66297802
>Study orchestration. Samuel Adler's book on the subject is excellent.
Are you well read on the subject? Is there any reason you don't recommend Piston's book for the beginner?

>>66298640
I recommend this. It may sound harsh at times, and there are some things I don't agree with him on ("if you don't write for money or the most common denominator you're not a songwriter"), but it gives some serious persective and an idea about the level of detail you have to take into consideration. All he gives you, you can use for yourself, with or without some personal tempering.

I love Britney Spears' Oops I did it again. Fun fact, it uses the la follia progression i V i VII III VII i V

>>66298958
>Cm spelt with sharps
>says chords scales, but it's just diatonic triads

I'm triggered

>>66299960
It is a mode of E Harmonic Major, which is not a very often used scale. I guess if you wanted to be an asshole and name your scale specifically, minor lydian would make sense.
Harmonic major is very interesting because of the diatonic chords available. For instance, you've got both Cdim7 and C+maj7 available diatonically. You I chord is minor, since there's no C#, but you can imply it's major by omitting the third (with all the other pitch classes agreeing with A lydian, simply leaving out the C will make it sound major, to an extent).

>>66300165
Avoid notes a strictly applied to chord voicings, don't use one unless you specifically want that effect for some reason.
They are loosely applied to the melodic line. Treat them as non-chord tones in classical, prepare and resolve them with non avoid tones, don't sustain one, don't put them on accents. Of course, just go by ear, often doing some of these things can get beautiful results, like in stella by starlight.

>>66302429

Ahh I was wondering how could it be that avoid notes are strictly applied to the melody lines, because I always use it as passing notes, though I'm careful not to emphasise it.

I can see why it's not use in chords though

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https://mega.nz/#!5kpTGQzQ!GGvUw9RaMvvI1aKkvComxLC1ksGmBSGWWKhNJI_8bOo

I managed to get hold of this gem, spread it around folks.

>>66302906
Is there interesting stuff in this that isn't discussed by 1000 different music theory books?

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pleb here, how do i play this?

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>>66303125
The B is a microtonal note. its 25 cents lower than an normal B.

A semitone is 100 cents, so the B is 3/4 of a step lower than usual.

You will need a special kind of keyboard to play this chord anon, or you could listen to it on a DAW, just detune one of the notes.

>>66303177
>>66303125
Whoops, its 75cents lower, not 25cents. Derp

>>66303194

oh, i see, thank you, anon

>>66302993
Completely different approach from anything you have read.

Recorded some bad improv from organ duty today. Shitty phone recording of a shitty electric church organ. Lots of pedal thumping and descending fifth, and then a church song. Sorry for quality.

https://clyp.it/kchtvmwd

>>66303203
I was wrong again, its actually 50 cents flat. If 1 step/semitone is 100 cents, then a quarter tone is 50 cents.

Here's what it sounds like (clyp.it is broken excuse the vocaroo):

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0DJ2XCsMJR2

The first chord is an unaltered Cmajor 7 chord.
The second chord is the Cmajor 7 with the flattened B, down a quarter tone/50 cents

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>>66278792

>An experiment in a pen-and-paper

>>66303229
different how?

>>66304731
it's like 30 seconds to download. just take a look at it and see for yourself

>>66304731
not him but I skimmed through it and its a completely different approach than any other harmony book I've ever read. Informal, focus on you singing against a drone (at least to start with), describing intervals using rhythms like 2:1 and 3:1. Very interesting.

>>66304871
I've heard about this kinda thing, it's some kinda theory about tensions, and not about relations, gonna have an interesting read.

>>66304784
no, that wouldn't help
it's any the other ones i dont want to read

>>66305855
just fuck off

>>66278834
newbie here, want easy version pls

Any advice for someone who already knows a decent amount of theory from taking AP music theory? I can do some 4 part voice leading and know about borrowed chords, secondary dominants and stuff like that. My problem is that despite knowing this stuff I still can't figure out how to build this into a piece. Specifically dealing with just a piano. How do you know when you want to leave out certain notes of a chord or arpeggiate a chord a certain way?

>>66306634
I could give you some general advice, but I think the best approach to someone in your position should be to post one of your compositions so we can point out your flaws and can show you what you can improve by at first hand.

>>66306634
>How do you know when you want to leave out certain notes of a chord or arpeggiate a chord a certain way?
P-p-personal experience. Just start writing and see what happens. Then, in the next piece, continue doing the things that worked well, and either try and fix the things that didn't, or avoid them altogether.

There are things like rules and patterns for good music and stuff, but I'd be here all day trying to explain it to you for nothing if you don't even have the basic prerequisites to understand it.

>>66306861
Does anyone have advise for beginning improv? I can't seem to fucking stay in time to play changes properly.

I can sort of get an idea for the scales when doodling around, but when I play to a backing track, I find out my rhythm is abysmal and at the end that I'm 1 to 3 chords off.

>>66306505
You can make it easier by choosing less distinct meters. You can use, for instance, 3/4, 6/8 and 9/8. You can switch between 3/4 and 6/8 by simply changing which beats you stress, and you can switch from 3/4 to 9/8 by just subdividing in 3 instead of 2, for instance. There's a lot of combinations of time signatures that are not too challenging. You could also just only do two time signatures, I guess, but make sure you go to and from the other one.

>>66307553
What instrument? I assume Piano?

>>66307553
very good exercise for this is to improvise a constant stream of one beat unit over an entire form. Play with only quarter notes, but don't leave any space. Then play with only 8th notes, again leaving no space. Then 8th note triplets, 16th notes, and 16th note triplets (depending on the tempo or how much of a monster you are).
It's just a great way to get accustomed to the feeling of the harmonic rhythm of the piece.

Is it stupid to place a fugue in front of a Toccata? I'm kinda wanting to make a Suite,
I Prelude II Chorale III Fugue IV Toccata
with the last part being a grand finale kinda piece. Should I switch Toccata and fugue, formally speaking?

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>>66306634
This can help, especially the later chapters.

Of course, though, I'd say "personal experience" more than anything.

>arpeggiate a chord a certain way?
(leaping on this because I know more about the subject)
For this, you might consider which notes are being emphasized by being on the strong beats, how the directionality or general shape of the arpeggiation figure shapes the feeling, how it interacts with the melody, or (if it's part of the melody) how it interacts with the overall melodic contour. Look at the hypermeter (don't remember learning about that in my AP music theory, but it's a pretty simple concept) and which notes are being emphasized by those sort of 'strong beats' and 'weak beats'.

One easy substitute is to listen to other music (preferably music you wouldn't mind changing, in case you're like me and any deviation from what you're used to sounds bad and heretical), and consider how it would sound if something in the arpeggiation were changed.

Examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9SY4o4wF_I
Standard 1-3-5. With chord changes the root is kept constant, so it's 1-3-5, then 1-4-6, 1-3-6, 1-4-#6, etc, so the feeling of the accompaniment is very stable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBm9wD9zg0
In this case the arpeggiation is a figuration of voices moving in a chorale-like way, with the bass. Here it's 5-1-3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5Y0uQLgriA
Rather different from the other two. The starting figure is 1-5-8-10-12 (1-5-1-3-5). So the first 1-5-8, and the way the strong beats are all 1 and 5 (it could be simplified as 1-8-12), gives it kind of an open feel. Unlike the other two, the root is quickly abandoned with the next chord. It goes from 1-5-8-10-12, to 7-8-10-12-15 (7-1-3-5-1), to #6-10-12-15-17 (#6-3-5-1-3), etc. Really though, I could talk about Faure and eaping from i to i42, or implied disappearing basslines or whatever all day, his pieces are always so intricate despite their shortness and surface simplicity.

>>66308167
Holy fuck, how much did I just type? I just meant to recommend that book, holy shit.

>>66306634
Learn to sight-sing or you will fail the exam.

>>66307553
Have you ever considered practicing with a metroome, like the rest of the civilized world?

>>66307788
Pretty sure Ravel does it in Couperin.

Stream tonight as 6, US Central

>>66309324
What's being covered today again?

Also, will inversions and figured bass notation be coming up this time?

>>66308980
True, then again, Ravel's Tomb of Couperin seems to be a musical hommage to baroque music, whilst in actual baroque music, I've only seen Toccatas and fugues or standalone Toccatas. Oh well, why submit preemptively to baroque conventions, I'll try it my way first.

>>66309573
Melody

>Also, will inversions and figured bass notation be coming up this time?
No. If you want a correct explanation on figured bass notation, redownload the notes. The new explanation is in there.

>about to practice
>just finished icing all my joints so I can practice without injury
>relative comes to visit
>an hour has passed

>>66309972
become a singer

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>>66309786
>Melody

>>66295266
It's an invite only tracker, as are most good ones. Excellent quality torrents, never had an issue

>>66309324

>>66298048
You need to know your keys, scales, and be intimate with all the chords you'll see. For example, when I see
>A-7
I'm not just going to do the three chord tones and a 7, that would be boring. I know what voicings I can do with an A minor, so I will use one of many things to make it more interesting. One of the rules you should follow is to avoid using roots outside of -7b5 chords. For A-7, I would likely either hit
>A-7 9
or
>A-7 9 11
depending on the context.

when's the next stream?

>>66312972
6 PM tonight, US Central time

About an hour and 15 minutes

>>66313016
thanks!

STREAM

This one's on melody. And I have a microphone.

LINK

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqUEaKts92UIstFjrz9BfcA/live

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>tfw just got back from playing basketball for 2 1/2 hours and dont feel like writing anything anymore
/sp/ and /fit/ feels

>>66314304
Huh? Did it end?

>>66314614
wait a while, when you endorphin rush ends, you'll experience angst and the need to write again

Here's the stream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC_oJXU5DFM

>>66315289
Thanks anon, was very helpful
How do you split the amount of bars per line though?

>>66316027
press enter at the line you want to split. Press enter again to unsplit

vocaroo.com/i/s0LDmTdyKMHF
R8 my waltz

>>66316417
i rate it 3/4

>>66316869
cheeky bastard

>>66309972
>many hours have passed

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>>66318060

le bump

>>66321664

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If thread dies please post this in the next OP

>>66323874
why?

>>66324642
>Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.

(It's a joke)

shellie likes /comp/

does /comp/ like shellie?

http://www.strawpoll.me/10718735

>>66324735
Who is Shellie?

>>66323043

I could offer to hold a lesson about modi, their use in gregorian chant, and their use in more modern contexts. It would be fairly geeky though. Any interest?

>>66326382
Sure. When is the lesson intended to be?

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>>66326473
I'm in the CET time zone, and my favorite time would be around 10pm here, which is about 4 pm us time. I can offer we, fr, Sa and su. I'd like to take 1-2 days to prepare some slides and examples.

I'm mostly familiar with the traditional use of modal music, so if anyone wanna provide some information about modal jazz or even hold his own lesson about it, please feel free to.

>>66326753
semi unrelated, do you know a resource about reading this style of notation (or what this style of notation is called so I can google it)

>>66326784
Mensural notation

>>66326789
what are its advantages?

>>66326822
It's an antiquated notation style for unaccompanied singing, that had no set rhythm. No advantage nowadays, but kinda essential for musicians specializing in Roman Catholic Church music.

>>66278844
>tfw €17k flawless piano

What makes a melody beautiful?

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>>66278834
https://clyp.it/hovar51p

sorry for invisible horns, but muscore crashes when i try and remove the instrument from the nodeark

thanks for doing these challenges btw, i'd never even try and make something if it wasn't for this

>>66327523
sounding like nursery rhymes

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>>66327523
Its a hard one to say, good intervals, good mixture of stepwise motion and leaps, good rhythmic variety or repeating rhythmic motif. good use of grace notes or trills or portamento/sliding. Find some melodies you think are beautiful and look at the score

>>66327523
Whatever you want.

But seriously, it could be anything. Adhering to traditional sung melody rules, having a distinct shape, sticking to one scale (esp. pentatonic), full chromaticism, or, actually, well timed chromaticism in something otherwise sticking to one scale.

One common example of that is using the 4th scale degree in an otherwise major anhemitonic pentatonic scale (usually reserving it for the second half of the melody), which personally I find gives it a really neat color.

Using a preestablished melody 'form' like a period, sentence, maybe small binary or tertiary, or perhaps approaching it as though you're writing for a stanza in a poem (maybe even a specific poem, to get ideas), can help.

One of the more concrete rules is motifs and developing them in some way, but even that I've heard at least one melody entirely without, like it seemed as though it was going out of its way to not repeat any motifs, and it was beautiful. (In that case it seemed as though it was the contours of every little phrase that sort of held the melody together).

>>66327584
Nice work, I like how the melody is composited between different parts. It works well, but because it seems like the melody is being passed around the wood winds, it makes the oboe in bars 8 and 16 feel disjointed. That figure used to blend in with the melody, but in bar 8 and 16 it's on its own, so it feels weird. If you wanted to make it like an "echo" then I'd put that figure somewhere else, so it doesn't feel like the oboe is out of place. Try putting it into the violins pizzicato. So you'll hear that figure in the oboe, as it blends in with the clarinet or flute melody, and then later it is echoed in the violins, instead of standing alone awkwardly.

You probably realize your bassoon part is probably impossible (i haven't met a bassoon player that can circular breath to this extent), so if you werent thinking about it already, you would need to pass this part between two bassoon players. They would swap every 2 or 4 bars or whatever. I personally don't like this figure in the bassoon for the whole duration of the piece. I would take an opportunity to put it into another part, like once you get into 3/4, have the cellos/basses play it instead of the bassoon. This gives the line more weight as you build up your instrumentation, and honestly it's a little tiring to hear the bassoon play that line for so long.

Your meter changes are not perfect. When we land in 3/4, it's a little jarring, and it takes until the string entries to realize what happened. If you could put chords on beats 2 and 3 of your first bar of 3/4, it would help clarify that a lot. When you go back to 4/4, that transition works, and I like that you took elements from your 3/4 section and used them back in 4/4.

When you return to the 4/4 I think more could change beyond the new counter-melody. It's still a little boring, since we heard all that only 6 bars ago. Consider changing the harmony, instrumentation, texture, etc

>Opened up my symphony file today
Holy shit I sketched out a 6th movement. Just needs woodwind parts. I still need to finish the 5th movement too. They're all pretty short, 4 to 5 mins each.

Then I need to begin the massive task of actually scoring the whole thing out. Export as a MIDI file, import into sibelius, then the "fun" begins.

>>66328822
what do you score in?

>>66328833
FL Studio. I have some pretty decent orchestral libraries running through Kontakt and I'm extremely comfortable and fast at writing in it so until I can convince myself to switch to Cubase its my main, unless I'm writing for solo piano in which case I use reason, which I have some great piano libraries for.

>>66328897
fl studio supports that or do you need some kind of plug in?

>>66328950
the Kontakt VST is all you need to run pretty much any sample library. I have Kontakt 4 and 5, and also Play for my ethnic instruments (QL RA).

I hope I didn't imply I'm doing the sheet music in FL, I'm using it purely to write in. I do the actual scoring / sheet music in Sibelius 6.

I had just completely forgotten that I had sketched out a 6th movement. It wasn't what I had been imagining, but its still pretty decent so I will build on it, add the woodwind parts, extend it etc.

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http://www.strawpoll.me/10720807

>>66329113
dang, hit a wrong button. I'll have you guys decide when you wanna have that semi-indepth introduction into gregorian (church) modes. I prefer a date after WE, since that gives me more time to prepare and look up the vocab as a non native english speaker.

>>66328822
Could we hear a little sample, perhaps?

>>66329677
I have the first 4 movements uploaded here:

https://soundcloud.com/psllbof/sets/symphony-no-1

They're alright, I could probably extend them a bit, and the final orchestration will be done during the scoring. Some cresc. / descresc. isn't included in these mock ups.

The idea is to have 6 short movements instead of 4 longer movements, and come out at about 20 - 25 minutes duration. Once I finish writing and scoring it out, the next step is to try to convince a local orchestra to play it... The whole thing is inspired by a region near where I live, so that should hopefully help convince any locals, as well as the fact that its highly melodic and tonal, and that I can produce mock-ups

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>>66329815

>>66330073
t-thanks I think. I really need to push myself to finish this thing off. Stupid fugue obsession has kept me from it for almost a year

I'm totally flagged, guys. It seems like I've totally lost all composition ability. I want to be able to write music again, but it feels a lot harder than it used to. What should I do?

>>66330883
write 16 bars of something and post it here no matter how shit it is

>>66330929
FUGG
Alright I'll take that I guess

>you will never own a nice baby grand

A decent Yamaha GC1 is 18k, how can I ever afford that?

>>66330993
Star in adult videos. Pick up a piano playing job in a brothel. I dunno. Why would you want a Yamaha when there's Steinway and boesendorfer and the likes?

>>66331401
not that guy, but from my experience, I think I've liked the yamahas over the cheaper steinways

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>load up muscore
>get anxious and loose heart
>close it

>>66333100
dubs say you'll get better anon

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alright so who am i stealing this from

https://clyp.it/4ce01tea

i'm 99% certain this is a vivaldi piece but my memory is garbage so if anyone could identify this progression that'd be neato.

i know its a common progression.

>>66333100
you're not sforzando anymore, anon, that's the issue

>>66333100
better than
>load up sibelius
>stay up til 4AM trying to write something
>come up with nothing

>>66333100
can someone explain why people start with a notation program instead of an instrument? i dont mean this in an insulting way. its just how i always do it. improv then notation software.

>>66333655
because some people are bad at improv. they need to write down their ideas first, play with them, and then change them. it's wildly inefficient and probably doesn't produce as good music but that's just my opinion.

>>66333690
Not that guy, but for me personally, it usually works best when I switch back and forth between methods. That way, I get those amazing lucky mistakes when I either input something wrong or just do something fuck, I get to test out how ideas sound played musically, plus, you'd have to really suck at piano to not test out ideas there faster than in the scorewriter.

Efficiency isn't as important as effectiveness! and I usually get _better_ results by varying my methods so I can look at stuff from different angles.

>>66333690
The only piece I've written that I'm proud of was made moving notes around in sibelius. I am just not proficient enough on piano to write for it.

I play guitar and it's practically worthless for writing for any other instrument,

>>66334024
Meant for >>66333655

>>66333278
it's a regular cadence in a minor, i - ii 6/4 - vii 7 - i

>>66333655
I don't have a church organ at home.

>>66335827
no excuse not to have a portable church organ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmTG9wTfrzk

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>>66336614

>>66335827
all you need is a MIDI keyboard and you can improvise on any kind of instrument you like, including single-manual organ

>>66336858
that dude is sheer jej

>>66333655
I just find it easier to write from a program for some reason. its not like I dont do both

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bump from my solo oboe piece

>>66338097
>audience participation
Interesting. How well does this work?

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>>66338250
Unsure, it never got played. It was only the very last part that had this, I would assume it would work pretty well, considering its a pretty simple participation.

Solo pieces are fun, you have to get pretty creative when you only have 1 melodic line to work with (unless you're writing for strings or keyboards...)

>>66338097
I really really really like this idea. It's aleatoric and experimental without being pretentious.

>>66338097
This is a cool idea, hope you get it played one day. In fact, if I played Oboe I would play this for you, damn.

One recommendation though; besides the first system, it's unnecessary to put the name of the instrument thereafter. Especially if it's a solo piece, it's understood from the beginning and the player will prefer it. It also gives you more space in the page.

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>>66338503
I exported the last bit so you can have a listen:

https://clyp.it/jibu5dvp

My program/library can't do bends (which would be very effective - semitone bends against the drone) so you'll just have to imagine them.

It has a kind of arabic feel

>>66338938
Yeah thats easily fixed, just delete the shorthand name and it deletes them from every system. For some reason I never got around to it, even though the piece is in pretty good shape editing-wise