>>65709867 old thread
An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists
This differs from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music. But remember, this is NOT /classical/. Any art music, such as jazz, is acceptable
Post clyps, and please post accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective
>Theory
http://tobyrush.com/theorypages/index.html
>tl;dr version
https://gumroad.com/l/tldrmusic#
>Basic composing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWbH1bhQZSw [Embed]
http://composer.rowy.net/
>Score Reference Library
http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
>Fux's Counterpoint
http://www.opus28.co.uk/Fux_Gradus.pdf
>Free Notation Software
https://musescore.org/
>Score Preparation Guide
musiciandevelopment.com/2016/05/16/how-to-prepare-a-professional-score/
>Orchestral Preparation Guideline
http://mola-inc.org/article/Music-Preparation-Guidelines-for-Orchestral-Music.pdf
>Orchestration (Rimsky-Korsakov)
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration
>Orchestration Online Blog
http://orchestrationonline.com/
>Bandestration blog.
https://bandestration.com/
>Sam Adler's Study of Orchestration, 3rd Ed.
http://www52.zippyshare.com/v/w473HFOA/file.html
>Takadimi: A Beat - Oriented System of Rhythm Pedagogy
http://www.takadimi.net/documents/TakadimiArticle.pdf
>Teoria - Music Theory General Guides/Articles
https://www.teoria.com/index.php
>Musictheory.net - General music theory with accompanying exercises and tests. Great for practice.
https://www.musictheory.net/
>Succint but insightful theory up to contemporary techniques such as serialism and set theory
http://learnmusictheory.net/
And feel free to expand!
>>65783082
You forgot the title OP.
Also, adding this link because it is are amazing and was not added:
>Foundation Studies in Fugue
http://www.mediafire.com/download/f1zbff56mxufhce/Norden_Hugo_Foundation_studies_in_Fugue.pdf
Also here's a miniature I finished a couple months back that is meant for soprano. Hoping to get some feedback. Any questions about what is happening in the piece are welcome.
https://soundcloud.com/islandroster/danza-soprano
>>65783400
The rhythmic independence of the voices was what really drew me into the piece.
Did this have any Eastern influence? I'm getting some eastern vibes off of it
>>65783501
Hey, can't post with trip right now (mobile).
Thank you, the rhythmic elements are indeed one of the main aspects of this piece, it's a rather simple process I've been developing but as you can hear it yields an interesting product.
As to the eastern influences, I'm curious as to where you hear them. Would you mind expanding? The piece is almost entirely diatonic and operating within its key.
>>65780710
Thanks : )
>>65784047
It's probably just my ear, I was listening to some Romanian and Middle Eastern music awhile ago
>>65784704
You're welcome :)
ded
Remember the YouTube composition stream is at 6:00, P.M. tonight, US Central Time. Like two hours away.
This first stream will just about basic music theory and notation so we can really discuss composition easily. Harmony will be addressed in the next stream (a week away? is that good for everyone?)
I don't have a mic right now, so I'll be responding in the chat bx to all inquiries. I'm using MuseScore to show examples, and will provide all the notes I used in the description of the video.
I'll post the YouTube link in this thread
>>65788363
Go ahead m8
>>65788363
Looking forward to it
Here's some OC
>>65790416
>it's upside-down
>>65790416
>>65790473
there we go, I flipped it for you
bump for stream soon
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqUEaKts92UIstFjrz9BfcA/live
Here's the stream! Can you see it okay?
>>65791097
yes.
How could we advertise this? I mean the point of it is to get people who don't know theory watching, isn't it?
>>65791259
Yeah. I'm the dude broadcasting BTW
make a new thread to get people in the youtube room
>>65790523
Thanks man, my mobile is fucky
>>65790523
Aw shit man it wasn't my phone they were actually upside down
I must have been super high damn
I did not anticipate how terrible my computer would be with this stream, damn.
well I already learned something. that is why the harmonic/melodic minor exists
Bump for stream likeness.
>non-perfect octaves have no reason to exist
I mean, if you have bitonality going on with one line in A and one in G#/Ab, either the first or the second of the G#/Ab key is bound to be a non-perfect octave
Unless it's in G# Phrygian or something
>>65792198
Ya, theres definately applications that are theoretically justified, very rarely in lets say "common practice" though
I recently was playing a schoenberg piece piano reduction and it had some diminished octaves that made perfect sense though, ill see if ican find them
>>65792198
I do think there are certain situations where it works and is actually executed brilliantly, but the vast majority of tonal music avoids it.
Thank you anon emouse senpai :) that was awsome
>>65792296
You're welcome
>>65792289
well its not so much about how it sounds as it is just "why would this be a b8th instead of a 7tth of some kind notationally"
But like i said i have seen times where it made more sense, polytonality is one example like other anon mentioned
Looking forward to the next.
I never actually took fundamentals, so some of these basic concepts I'm thinking about in a new light.
>>65792312
Same time next week?
Alright, reuploaded the notes to Dropbox if you want it without errors
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccl3vd5f9kbj0dm/comp%20session%201.zip?dl=0
>>65792366
Same time next week, I'll be teaching harmony off of Yarn's notes
>>65791462
I might do that, what do you guys think?
So why is there a harmonic AND a melodic minor? They both have the leading tone so what is the purpose of having a different minor scale with a natural 6th instead of a flatted one?
>>65792440
Because the melodic fixes the sixth - seventh minor third step. The harmonic keeps it for harmony, so it can have a minor sixth in chords
>>65792440
I'm not sure of the historical reason to be completely honest, i mean the raised 7th has a very specific harmonic purpose whereas the 6th is only really raised to lead melodically to the 7th, but ya, i dont see why you wouldnt just have 1 "altered minor" or whatever with both and be done with it.
>>65792405
>I might do that, what do you guys think?
It will defiantly bring more people into the lesson... But the shitposters will come in hordes
>>65792471
augmented second step*
>>65792491
Maybe I'll upload it after the live stream is done.
>>65792513
*blush*
>>65792532
what can i say
>>65792440
And this is where you start to realize harmonic/melodic minor are really just the ancient masters' way of using chromaticism while not calling it chromaticism
That's probably either oversimplification or actually dead wrong, but that's my guess anyway
>>65792674
I made a thread
>>65792573
ya im not sure, cause of course before major/minor it was modes, but modes represented all possible orders of the 7 pitches whereas major and minor only represent 2, im not sure how they were singled out and developed further
ill ask my teacher about it maybe
>>65792440
Most of the anons here have more or less said it, but a more succinct way of saying it is that the raised 6th leads into the 7th without having to leap an augmented second for better melodic fluidity. Notice that this only happens when ascending and reverts back to natural minor while descending, thus establishing your minor mode.
Ultimately, the greatest differing factor in between minor and major is the third. That flattened third is the defining feature of the minor mode.
>>65790523
I think the page on the left is upside-down... the right one looks right though... am I insane?
>>65792480
It's because those scales are just a condensation of the compositional technique of the raised 7th for tonality purposes, and the raised 6th for smooth ascending line purposes. The scales weren't invented to fix these issues, composers just wrote good sounding music and then later on these scales were extracted from those techniques. That's why melodic minor varies ascending and descending in the classical idiom, but is fixed up and down in the jazz idiom, since the scales are derived from usage.
>>65792845
That's right.
>>65792730
In my opinion the major mode was "singled out" because of a gravitation to functional harmony, as in tonic, dominant, subdominant functions. In other modes, these functions are not as clear. In minor even, these functions aren't clear without raised 7ths.
>>65792845
one of 'em is upside down, the other isn't
>>65792905
speaking of jazz, the OP pic this thread is a jazz /comp/ instead of a classical on
the performance (one of em) of "Ya gotta try", from Buddy Rich is here
http://mikejamesjazz.com/media/br_clips/london_041083/set_one/01_ya_gotta_try.mp3
Composed by Sammy Nestico
For more versions : http://mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html
For more /jazz/ /comp/ sheet music : http://mikejamesjazz.com/writing_music_05_arr_comp.html
Has anybody read this blog? He seems kind of grandiose and possibly a crank and I can't find anything else about him anywhere else than this blog, but it contains a lot of writings on harmony and counterpoint. I can't tell if some parts are crazy mysticism or like, musical numerology or if he's just writing coherent thoughts that are above my head.
http://hucbald.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-music-works-chapter-one.html
>>65793011
ya major is definitely more clear, but ya, thats exactly what i mean, the aeolian mode without a raised 7th by itself doesn't seem worth saving over other certain modes, and its not like you cant raise a 7th for say, the dorian mode, although the dorian mode is included in melodic minor so...
mixolydian mode i love too although with a raised seventh its the same as ionian...so maybe i just answered my own question : )
I think this is dorian yeah?
https://clyp.it/lkf3djvr
>>65793143
yeah, first mode of C major. I use it in blues over Am
>>65793096
ya actually now that i think of it
Ionian (major) - ok fine
Dorian - included in minor/melodic minor
Phrygian - minor second from 1->2 is too bad i guess
Lydian - i actually dont see a big problem with it, but i mean the 4th is probably the most commonly raised note in the major mode anyway (to modulate to the dominant)
Mixolydian - same as ionian if you raise the 7th
aeolian (minor, almost) - ok fine
Locrian - minor 2nd from 1->2 and 1->5 is a diminished interval so its an absolute joke mode
>>65793143
yup
>>65793172
first mode? not second? ionian isnt first? or is this some jazz terminology i dont understand, i dont really jazz
>>65793199
>first mode? not second? ionian isnt first? or is this some jazz terminology i dont understand, i dont really jazz
That's how I learned it. You can call Ionian first, Dorian second, doesn't matter. I did learn it in relation to Ionian though.
In the video, I'll teach it as the first mode, because that is more common in both jazz and classical
>>65793039
>http://hucbald.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-music-works-chapter-one.html
not done reading enough to give an opinion, but I like how he said other theorists have failed where he has succeeded, because he is better at math than them, and then calls a third an irrational number. Either way potentially inconsequential to the point he's trying to make.
>>65793096
So if we had started with dorian as the starting point of "minor" (instead of aeolian), by raising the 7th of dorian, we'd end up with both a major IV and major V, which would make the subdominant function unclear. By the same token, if we started with phrygian and raised the 7th, we would have a major V and a minor IV chord, which helps the tonality be clear, but then you don't have a good alternative subdominant chord since your II is diminished and on a flattened scale tone. Of course this is not so bad, which is why phrygian has become a big harmonic basis in a lot of other culture's music, but melodic minor is not.
>>65793273
ya i was just curious
names are more important anyhow
>>65793282
ya, interesting, i was just thinking outloud as well.
I just meant that because we raise the 6th all the time in aeolian anyway (when used as the minor mode) dorian is kind of covered
>>65793282
I remember the first thread was a big argument between jazz guys and classical guys over modes. This discussion is much better (not enough jazz though)
>>65793326
what argument is there even about modes. They're the same in both idioms except melodic minor.
>>65793350
well he was calling dorian mode "first", whereas id call it second, but i mean it doesnt matter
also really id just call it "dorian" :p
I started writing this way back in 2001 after a big tragedy had occured. and messed around with it on and off for a couple years. now it lies in my archives as something i still like but also loathe. i'm proud of how i maneuvered the harmony but it's cheesy af †bh senpaitachi. still has some nice moments.
https://clyp.it/10lidytn
>>65793396
not that, the one from the first thread of /comp/
>>65793025
better sax solo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X47v0Mz3N-k
Is it worth composing if you haven't studied music since you were young?
>>65793503
always! it's good for you. also you're liberated by having an understanding of music but you aren't in an academic box. i was composing good stuff before i seriously studied harmony and /comp/, while i was studying i sucked, and then a year or two after i finished i got güd again. you gotta get away from it a bit to free yourself. at least i did!
>>65793096
Can you explain that again? I'm not sure why keeping Aeolian was singled out. Dorian and occasionally a raising seventh actually makes more sense since you wouldn't have to end up with the augmented second.
Or phyrgian. I mean, you don't really need a raised seventh when you got a minor 2.
Which I guess would lead to interesting questions like mixolidian with a flat 2 when descending (like an inversion of the harmonic minor or something)
I wrote some basic jazz chords for a piece, /comp/ how'd I do
https://clyp.it/mo2xszio
>>65793630
You want the HARMONIC minor for harmony. Also, modes kinda died out when the melodic and harmonic minor developed (I think)
>>65793630
oh i wasnt really explaining, just trying to figure it out
All i meant is that because the minor mode includes other modes if you consider that you can "freely" raise the 6th and 7th, alot of the other modes become superfluous
>>65793679
Why did they want the minor sixth specifically? Was it for a minor IV? I guess that makes sense. Just kind of thinking out loud here lol.
>>65793931
You can add6 to any chord
>>65793954
the minor sixth of the scale he means
>>65793970
for melody? I'm not understanding
>>65793970
like having a minor sixth within the scale instead of a major sixth
(as in say C minor would have an A instead of an Ab)
pretend the minor scale had a major 6 instead of a minor 6, it would make the iv chord minor, which hes saying would confuse the tonality
>>65794084
pretend the minor scale had a major 6 instead of a minor 6, it would make the IV chord MAJOR, which hes saying would confuse the tonality
^fixed
>>65793630
With dorian and a raised 6th, you do not have the flat 6th. Yeah, duh, but just like the flat 3rd defines tonic minor, the flat 6th defines subdominant minor. If your minor harmonic system was entirely based around melodic minor (or dorian raised 7th) then you would be stripping it off functional clarity.
>>65794112
Well, yeah, the iv chord is minor. They raised the seventh to make the V major, but it didn't work melodically so they raised the sixth
>>65793679
Are you writing just chords, or a chords + melody texture. If it's just chords, I'd say your voice leading could be way improved, and if it's chords + melody I think it could still be improved. If you'd let me know what you were shooting for I'd be happy to help
>>65794321
just chords
>>65794321
i assume part-writing will eventually taught on stream/by my guides once i get off my ass but its hard to teach before weve taught basic harmony so...
>>65794484
Just email me (anonemouse) the guides when you're done
>>65794511
ya i will, like i said ill due the first harmony/part writing one tommorow night
>>65792845
Nah, it was semi upside down
I was blazed as fuck sorry
But it's actually a really nice sounding piece if you play it out
You will like it
>>65783082
>people still write music for performers
>people still write music on pen and paper
>people still write music at all
just lel at this thread
>>65794622
well done anon
>>65794622
>people still write music at all
exactly, its pointless anyway, so why would it matter how we do it? I like pen and paper the best
>>65794675
i prefer a fatty mechanical pencil. don't have to swirl as much to make dem noteheads
>>65794622
>people still haven't killed themselves yet
just lel at you
>>65794705
haha, same, 9mm
>>65793679
>>65794347
so here's how I would do something similar to what you're doing. so leaps in the soprano line of jazz chord voicings, in my opinion, should be a little scarcer than what you've done. They're good to delineate changes in form and to emphasize certain areas, especially during a solo, I've tried to show that with my example. Another important thing is whether your chordal part is defining the root or not. Some of your chords do and some do not, and in my opinion you should always define the root (if there isn't another bass part), or at least in an exercise like this. I put in examples of chordal defined roots and roots defined by a bass line. Going from you first Dmaj7 to B-7 to E-7 you also have semi crossed parts, where your bass voice jumps into a note that was played by another voice in the previous bar, which kind of breaks down the independence of the voices. Your last voicing is kind of bad for three reasons, like before you have crossed parts, the A to C# is a little close and crunchy/muddy on a piano. You also have a huge interval between your tenor and alto, which changes the texture from this 4 part harmony thing to two distinct chordal areas, which sounds bad right at the end of a section like this.
>>65794822
thank ypu!
>>65793408
forgot to reply before, its! Get back into it
https://clyp.it/wihf01va reminds me that i used to stuff for game soundtracks, taking a break to learn more properly though
yours is much more harmonically interesting than my old stuff
>>65794622
go to bed /prod/
>>65794212
>>65794084
Thanks guys.
Slightly unrelated, but the iv being the "go to" subdominant chord was something I never really understood.
I know the V being the dominant was logical because it had the leading tone but what made the iv the default? I know in jazz its usually ii that's more used
>>65794622
>I'm completely out of touch with the classical world
we're are all cringing
>>65794946
well its the default for minor because iv is diatonic to the aeolian (minor) mode, to get IV you need to raise the 6th with an accidental (by using the melodic minor scale).
for major IV is of course the default
unless i missed the question :p
>>65795024
I mean in general (major or minor), the chord based off the fourth degree is somehow the default subdominant chord.
>>65795125
oh... well subdominant literally means "the fourth scale degree", do you mean pre-dominant function chords? that would include the 2 (supertonic) and 4 (subdominant) triad.
>>65795125
Think of it as the 5th below. Hence subdominant.
>>65795217
subdominant scale degree is the 4th scale degree. Subdominant is also a function that chords based on scale degrees II and IV tend to have. Predominant chords do not always have subdominant function. For instance, augmented 6th chords and V/V chords have dominant function (if a secondary dominant function) but are predominant chords.
Another word that kind of means subdominant function that you may be used to is a plagal relationship.
>>65792700
Greatly appreciated. However I think it would get more discussion if we talk about it in the general as much of the board probably doesn't care for composition.
>>65795217
>>65795277
Uhh yeah, I guess that was what I meant. It seems like I IV V is some sort of "go to" progression similar to ii V I in jazz. My question was why the IV was chosen.
>>65795277
From wikipedia:
"In music, the subdominant is the technical name for the fourth tonal degree of the diatonic scale. It is so called because it is the same distance "below" the tonic as the dominant is above the tonic - in other words, the tonic is the dominant of the subdominant."
"In music theory, a predominant chord (also pre-dominant) is any chord which normally resolves to a dominant chord. Examples of predominant chords are the subdominant (IV, iv), supertonic (ii, ii°), Neapolitan sixth and Augmented sixth. Other examples are the secondary dominant (V/V) and secondary leading tone chord."
I think, at least in the way that i learned it (and that the above wikipedia definitions indicate), that your confusing terms a bit.
Subdominant means and only means "4th degree of the scale", there is no "subdominant function", it is literally just the IV/iv etc chord
Subdominant chords very often resolve to the dominant chord, that is to say, the subdominant chord very often functions as a predominant
so do aug6 and V/V, vii/V, blah blah blah, but of course these wouldnt be called "subdominants". V/V for example is build on the supertonic of the scale, not the subdominant.
I would argue that saying "aug 6 and V/V chords have a dominant function" is a bit of a semantics game, in terms of the key your currently in if theyre resolving to the dominant then they are predominant function chords, although i realize they are "dominant with relation to the dominant(V) chord".
I think what you meant to say was "subdominant chords do not always have predominant function"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predominant_chord
>>65795406
I think it's because in jazz, a consistency of root motion is favoured as the "default". II V I has consistent root motion. In classical music, this is not valued nearly as much. for reasons such as chords not being as root-defined as they are in jazz, and different voice leading sensibilities.
In classical music, first of all, I don't think that IV is necessarily the go to subdominant chord. I've analyzed a lot of music which uses ii as a subdominant chord, and I think it's a little incorrect to say IV V I is classical and II V I is jazz. But either way, it definitely is used more. I think, personally, that there's more of an emphasis on consistency of chord quality in classical music. Minor chords have more of an emotional impact, so if you don't want that in your piece you'll use the IV chord. Minor chords in jazz do not carry that emotional impact, due to things like the added 7th. They're more of a tool than an emotional choice, which is why they don't usually add an unwanted emotional effect that they could in classical.
>>65794622
>people are still posting stale bait
>>65795544
>I think it's a little incorrect to say IV V I is classical and II V I is jazz.
I agree
>But either way, it definitely is used more. I think, personally, that there's more of an emphasis on consistency of chord quality in classical music. Minor chords have more of an emotional impact, so if you don't want that in your piece you'll use the IV chord. Minor chords in jazz do not carry that emotional impact, due to things like the added 7th. They're more of a tool than an emotional choice, which is why they don't usually add an unwanted emotional effect that they could in classical.
This was the answer I was looking for. I guess I had some problem with the question because terminology. Thanks.
>>65795515
I'm not confusing my terms. There is a difference between the subdominant scale degree, and subdominant function. There are three harmonic function in music, tonic, subdominant and dominant. Chords that have subdominant function include ii, IV, bVII, bII, etc. Chords with tonic function is stuff like I vi iii bIII. Chords with dominant function are things like V, viidim.
Predominant chords are not a function, they are a category of chords that precede V. It is not a semantics game to call augmented 6th chords and secondary dominants dominant functioning. It highlights that they come from a different tonal center. V/V is dominant function in regards to V, where as ii, built of the same degree, is a subdominant function in regards to I. Again, there is a difference between "function" and the technical names of scale degree, despite sharing names.
That stream really upped the qulity of our thread. We've been talking modes and harmony ever since
I can't put it into words how this makes me feel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQLD_rPWXsE
How does he make that first modulation in the second movement feel so natural?
>>65795719
I think we've learned from different textbooks etc
From my understanding (trying to be very exact):
-A chord is a subdominant if and only if built upon the 4th scale degree
-A chord fulfilling a predominant progression, that is, one where it resolves to a dominant chord (V usually) can be said to be "fulfilling a predominant function"
-A subdominant (by my definition) chord can also return to the tonic, in what is called a "plagal progression", in this case it does not fulfill a predominant function
-A supertonic chord is the ***DIATONIC*** alternative to the subdominant as a "predominant function chord", and the subdominant can lead to the supertonic to prolong predominant harmony leading up to dominant harmony
(actually a cadential 6/4 can also function as a predominant function chord to be precise about things)
The only use of the term "subdominant function" I've heard of is when they talk about something like I-IV-I where IV is functioning as what i would call a prolongation of tonic harmony (the same can be executed with vii or ii for example)
All i meant by "semantics game" is for example, the difference between seeing V/V as "dominant of V" or "predominant leading to V then back to I, in a tonic-pd-dominant-tonic phrase"
http://williamscomposer.com/research/sub-vs-pre-dominant.pdf
this more or less backs me up (although it represents various opinions and gets a little confusing to read)
either way, its just difference of terms, but i thought id make myself clear.
>>65796179
Some people use subdominant and predominant interchangebly
>>65796213
fair enough
i think its worth agreeing on precise terms if we're in the process of teaching people them though
>>65795758
>fifth movement
Every time.
Some of these movements seriously make me want to play some Harvest Moon again.
ßump
>>65796724
Bb-A-C-B
asdfbump
oh great another subreddit general thread
>>65798703
yes, cause every other thread save for maybe 3 at a time is worth existing on this joke of a board
>>65795758
Goes from D to f# (I - iii), then from f# to C# (i - V). Resulting in a modulation by a half step.
Finished the fugue I've been working on for the last week or so
https://soundcloud.com/psllbof/fugue-in-d
Even managed a brief stretto section at the end (from 2:27)
>>65799982
Beautiful anon.
>>65799982
>he's composed fugues in many other keys
whoa, Mozart
>>65800465
Fugues have been my obsession for the last 10 months. Pretty much wrote nothing but fugues. Starting to improve!
>>65800362
cпacибo Бoльшoe!
>>65800485
in a while I'm going to play your song here https://plug.dj/implyingwecandiscussmusic is that okay
>>65800497
no problem, do what you like with them
Tonight's bump.
>>65783082
bump
ill watch the lesson on youtube. hoping to understand all
Adagio for 3 cello's and 2 basses in C minor. Don't go outside of the key much, other than the occasional switch from vii Chord to a Major. My theory is okay; what can this improve on theory wise?
https://soundcloud.com/geoffrey-norsa-music/adagio-for-3-celli-2-db-sweeping
http://solomonsmusic.net/brahmrls.htm
bamp
>>65798703
I don't even understand what this means.
>>65801691
its a redi-i mean reshittor trying to fit in
>>65801739
What? If you're not interested in composition you can go to another thread.
>>65801746
i was speaking againt >>65798703
gn
>>65796179
Again, you simply haven't learn about the topic of function. There is a difference between what you have learnt. Some people do call the subdominant function the predominant function, and they are wrong. Lumping in +6 chords, secondary dominants, etc, with IV and ii chords is pointless in regards to their function, and ignores that those chords are non diatonic. Classifying them as a predominant function focusses way too much on the on-the-paper-theory instead of how these things sound.
http://openmusictheory.com/harmonicFunctions.html
http://www.mi.sanu.ac.rs/vismath/lends/ch1.htm
>>65800760
I personally think the instrumentation is way too bass heavy but that's up to you. I would've gone like 5 vc 2 db, or 3 vc 1 db. It doesn't come across in your recording, but the timbre of the high cello notes could be over powered. But again, this is preference.
From a theory stand point, it's good, but it's a little boring. What I would have liked to hear was some good counter melodies, like the Barber that inspired you. When you're working with a chamber ensemble like this, it's also great to explore other registral textures. You've got two main ones, "low stuff" and "all the stuff". I would've liked to hear, for contrast an emphasis, maybe shorts passages without any lower register. Maybe I'd like to have heard very high, almost too high cello sustained chords with a big booming unison melody in the basses. You could look into techniques like harmonics. All in all, it's just a little too samey which makes it unguided.
>>65800760
I like it, but was sort of expecting more. I get if you want to stay in the lower registers but like >>65803244 said, it's kind of boring. I like the harmonics idea (also if you haven't already, check out 'Portrait of Tracy' by Jaco.)
If you really want to stay low register, maybe add another theme or try modulating to so some far out key for some more contrast.
PS, anyone know how to notate harmonics in musescore?
>>65803486
You can just change the notehead, right? You just need one normal notehead and one diamond notehead as a "chord" to notate artificial harmonics, and if you're using natural harmonics you can just grab the o symbol.
how does jazz tensions work? For example, I could spice up spice up a V chord with a added sixth chord, for example playing D major with a C major acting as a V, but i have no idea how it all works and what's the guidelines for writing tensions.
Hey everyone, I have never studied music theory because i have always thought that if something comes to my mind i will keep it as it is instead of changing it on the basis of someone else's rules.
Is this mindset wrong? Is there anyone that was in my situation and decided to study music theory anyway?
as an example i'll post a thing i made up in the past few days, so you can tell me if you can notice the lack of theoretical knowledge (sorry for the messed up playing and tempo but i still have to refine my technique for this piece)
https://clyp.it/h0rwjtpz
>>65803911
theory allows you to take what comes naturally and craft it into a full scale piece that will blow people away when they hear it. It also allows you to start writing for real players, and allows you to look at all the old masters of composition and learn from them.
For example you could take that natural melody that comes to mind and make a 3 minute fugue out of it, or an hour long symphony. Theory isn't just some "rules to write by" its also about how instruments work, their limitations, how to combine them effectively, how to extend your material, and how to create music that will be effective, tight, and long lasting (ie with a high replay value).
If you already have musical ideas coming to you, then there is really no reason not to learn theory. It can take you from being an amateur with inspiration into being a fully fledged composer, able to write for any performer or ensemble, and able to communicate your ideas clearly, and effectively.
>>65803911
your harmonic writing is very good, you have a good ear for chord progressions, but your melodic writing is very boring. Often just the same rhythm repeated, and lots of repeated notes which dont make for a good melody.
Learning theory will help you create better melodies, it will allow you to combine two or more melodies at once (right now your piece is "homophonic" - one melody against a chord progression) Music with more than one melody we call "polyphonic" and its far more interesting to listen to, as you can focus on different parts with each listen-through.
Its up to you, if you want to get serious about writing music (And you have potential), go study it at university / college. It will give you all the skills needed to become a composer, and will propel your writing to the next level, open your eyes to many different styles and ways of writing, from where you can find your own voice and the ways that work best for you. Would strongly recommend.
I started off just writing music for 10 years as an amateur, then decided I wanted to get serious and did a music degree. It really makes a difference and suddenly you can think about music much more clearly; defining goals for yourself and beginning to produce high quality works that people will treasure years down the line. I still write mostly by ear, but I find that if I try to use theory and try to be very careful about which chords I'm using, it sounds much clearer and much more effective, going beyond what I would have written by instinct and adding an extra layer of emotion or feeling.
>>65803911
You don't have to change it though. The whole point of theory is to give names to these ideas that come naturally.
Reposting an improvisation I wrote based on this short theme.
https://clyp.it/dqchpj1k
>>65803244
Dubs confirm. Still learning comp. I agree the colour is really muddy. Also my prod skills limit the ability to write extravagant stuff. Thanks for the comment. I agree that I should have extrapolated the bass parts and move into counter melodies more. Might right another piece for Vc and Bs and perhaps use more techniques than simply changing dynamics and simple rhythmic notes. Thanks!
>>65803486
Thanks man! Yeah I agree about the new theme. I guess it's just laziness sometimes. It's SOOOO tempting to simply copy and paste simple ideas twice and is very easy to do in prod. I agree with both of you. Thanks for the comments.
>>65793408
Really Digging that Minor change. Good work man!. Defs Cheesy. But this music definitely has it's place.
>>65803911
Yeah you've got the wrong mindset. You've learnt theory, just by ear. Everyone who writes nice music has an understanding of theory, yours is just not "academic". If you learn music theory, you won't be learning someone elses rules. You'll just be explaining the rules that you yourself already intrinsically understand. And that can definitely expand your horizons.
A lot of people unfortunately, especially on this board, thing music theory is prescriptive. It's descriptive. It takes what composers ears hear and create and puts that into words.
>>65804089
(not him)
>(right now your piece is "homophonic" - one melody against a chord progression) Music with more than one melody we call "polyphonic" and its far more interesting to listen to
eh, personally I find the blend of melodies with equal weight to be less interesting than one melody enhanced by all the other parts. That's just me though
>>65803873
Let's first work with diatonic chords. Imagine tensions as an extension of a chord first of all, so you move up in thirds. Let's start in C major with the Imaj7 chord. First, let's list all the possible tensions; we just keep going up in thirds. We get C E G B D F A, we're going diatonically. We can label these incrementally, the B is the 7th, the D is the 9th, the F is the 11th and the A is the 13th. It is not the 6th, you would call the A a 6th if the 7th weren't present, but since it is the A is a tension, an extension. To clarify, C E G A is C6, and C E G B A is Cmaj13. or Cmaj7 (13). So if you sit down and honk C E G B D F A it's not going to sound great. That's because not every tension is always available. A good barometer for whether a tension is available is 1. it is a major 9th/2nd above a chord tone (does not apply to some dominant chords, will explain later) 2. it does not interfere with the chords harmonic function (will explain this later). So if we look at our big fat Cmaj13 chord, C E G B D F A, we can see that D and A are major 9ths above chord tones, so they are all good. They are "available". The F however, is a minor 9th above the E, which makes it unavailable. So if you want a pleasant, functional Cmaj7 chord you can use tensions 9 and 13. I can talk later about how to voice chords.
Let's take another example, the E-7 chord in C major. Extrapolating again we get E G B D F A C. F and C are minor 9ths above chord tones, so we don't use them. We find that on the III-7 chord only A, or the 11th, is an available tension. Of course, this doesn't meant that you can never use F. If you want a piece to sound phrygian, you can totally use tension flat 9. But if you're playing pleasant chords in a III VI II V I, then you would avoid those tensions.
>>65805533
>>65803873
So I'd urge you to do this process yourself just to understand it, but if we look at the diatonic chords you'll basically find these available tensions. Imaj7(9,13) II-7(9,11) III-7 (11) IVmaj7 (9,#11,13) V7 (9, 13) VI-7(9,11) VII-7b5(11, and technically 13 but it sounds weird a lot of the times).
So you might notice that I didn't say that 13 was available on II-7, despite it being a major 9th above a chord tone. The reason is that in a functional tonal setting, the II-7 is acting subdominantly, and it wants to move to the dominant chords. The typical II V I. The characteristic tone in the dominant chord is the leading tone of the key, and tension 13 in a II-7 is the leading tone of the key. Including this tone in the subdominant chord lessens the impact of the dominant chord that is following it. It muddies the sense of progression. For that reason, it is unavailable. If you are using a II-7 chord in a modal sense, or just in any sense where it's not acting as a subdominant chord, not leading to the V chord, then tension 13 is available.
>>65805549
Not the same guy, but I heard some things about how the 9 can clash with some of the minor chords because of the flat 3. Can you explain when it works?
>>65805703
If you place the 9 below the flat 3 it sucks, that creates a minor 9th, so that's out the window. So basically if the minor 3rd is in the melody, don't use it generally. There are some beautiful ways to voice chords with a minor 2nd at the top of the voicing, but most theory books will tell you to avoid this because it makes the melody unclear or some other dumb reason like that. It's something you can do with winds and strings and voice but not on piano. If you place the 9th above the flat 3, you get a major 7th interval, which some people think is too dissonant. Of course, depending on where you use it, it can be too dissonant, but often it's beautiful. It depends on the context, but i'd say it's always available, and places you would choose not to use it would be due to emotional context.
I did definitely forget to mention melodic considerations in my previous explanations. For instance, if you're at a IVmaj7 (let's call it Fmaj7 in C) chord and there is a 5th (C) in the melody, you probably wouldn't use tension #11.
Are there any ways to record with vocaroo or clyp.it on mobile?
Sharing some further counterpoint literature
>Fundamental Counterpoint by Norden Hugo
http://hugoribeiro.com.br/biblioteca-digital/Norden-Fundamental_Counterpoint.pdf
>>65806397
Don't think it's possible m8.
>>65803100
well i disagree, watcha gonna do
>>65806578
it is a fantastic distinction to make when working beyond triadic harmony or in pieces that modulate rapidly / have undefined tonal centers. Not like I can stop you though
What are some ways composers can make the separate movements of a multi-movement work feel unified?
>>65794867
>>65804403
thanks m8s!
>>65807144
i don't really see how my way doesn't cover those, i'd be eager to know though
>>65807205
That's a very good and not definitively answerable question, Brahms and Schoenberg in particular write a lot about unity between sections and movements and how pieces should be conceived in their entirety all at once, and say the beginner won't be able to do this immediately
a more answer would be motivic relationships, key relationships, conveying similar feelings or ideas, a lot of not that easy to quantify stuff too
Just as like a simple example, maybe my main melody from the first movement is found chopped up into 2 or 3 different bass line figures in the last movement, with a whole new melody on top of it. Development is the name of the game
I'd like if someone who knew more could answer this too, ive never got a really really good answer other than the obvious stuff i just said
>>65807906
a more practical answer**
Posting some nice motif/theme development from the Beethoven guy
upper part is the very beginning
lower part is at 5:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06O5TWFMmPs
How do I start jazz /comp/? With classical I've been going pretty logically from small-form pieces of the common practice period and onward. But where do I start with jazz? Should I learn to improvise well before I begin composing?
>>65808632
Yeah you definitely need to learn to play jazz first. You need to learn idiomatic things like how the melodies are shaped, how chords are voiced, rhythmic tendencies, and the best way is just to learn stuff by ear. Take songs you like, I can definitely recommend stuff if you want, and learn how to play the melody and chords by ear. You'll naturally learn to improvise this way, especially if you learn solos by ear. You don't need to burn, just enough to know your way around important tunes in the style you want to compose in.
If you'd like more help kind of constructing a war path, I'd be happy to help if you let me know what your instrument is and what artists you like, what specific styles you might want to write in.
>>65808632
Learn different melodies for the different instruments. Go over different pieces and figure out how the different melodies blends to sound the best. You might want to start with solo pieces (for piano, saxophone, etc.) before delving into everything at once.
>>65807647
Classifying function by scale degree, or lumping anything that comes before V as a predominant chord, loses some nuance in describing non-diatonic chords. Let's say you're in G and you have a German aug sixth chord. This is a pre-dominant chord. If you say it has pre-dominant function, you're tying this chords tonal relationship to G. My argument is that you shouldn't call this function pre-dominant (which lumps it in with IV and ii) because it's important to see that it's acting outside of the key. It has dominant function in regards to D, the V of G. And this is important, because what if it doesn't go to D and instead goes to Ab, resolving like a V7 chord. Does it at some stage stop being a predominant chord? You could say there is a change of function, which happens, but in the case it's better to say that it is functioning dominantly. When it resolves down a 5th it is still fulfilling it's function. Like wise, what if instead of it essentially being an Eb7 chord, it had a major 7. Would you still think it functions like augmented 6 chord? What if we're still in G major, but through modal interchange or something like that, our V chord is minor. Does it still have dominant function? Or is it acting subdominantly in another key?
>>65809667
I don't really see what you're arguing here, forget what i said. To you what is the difference between subdominant and predominant functions?
>>65803100
referring back to this post, im not ignoring their nondiatonicism, i would also realize that (for example) V/V is also functioning as a dominant to a separate key, but i dont think that takes away from its predominant function in the current key if its a progression such as I-vi-V/V-V7-I for example
Like i said though id love to understand further, you probably know more than i do
>>65811193
>>65811060
So pre-dominants and pre-dominant functions are chords that you would expect to precede a dominant. These include ii IV V/V subV7/V +6 N6 V7sus / I 2nd inversion etc. Predominant describes what they do, not how they sound. These all act/function in different ways in respects to other chords. ii IV are acting diatonically as subdominant functions. The presence of the stable fourth degree drives this function, just like the presence of the leading tone drives the dominant function. The subdominant function does not always need to go the V chord, there isn't the same sense of urgency. This is an important distinction to make because it's this pacing that drives the tonal system. It's important to have a good command of harmonic function to drive harmony once you've gone past common practice tonality. Compare this with pre-dominant chords with clear dominant function, such as V/V and +6. These establish a clear expectation to resolve, with V/V and +6 doing this especially so because of tritones. Because of this, they are functioning as secondary (secondary, as in not in the primary tonal area) dominants and have an intrinsically different sound.
>>65812817
oh, that makes perfect sense then and isnt that far from what i was thinking, except the specific function of "subdominant" is quite useful like you said before
Ok ill go with your way : )
>>65812817
>N6 +6 subV7/V
What are these chords? I've never seen them before
>>65813960
subV7/V = the tritone substitution of V7 of V (or however you'd word that)
N6 = Neapolitan 6th chord
+6 = augmented 6th chord
>>65813960
Not him.
N6 is the Neapolitan sixth chord, a major chord with root being a half step above the tonic. In A minor it would be a Bb Major chord. Usually in 1st inversion (DFBb) hence N6.
+6 I'm guessing is an augmented sixth chord. + means augmented. There are many types, but all involve two notes an augmented sixth (enharmonically a minor seventh) apart from each other, which resolve by each moving another half step apart to a perfect octave interval, usually on the dominant. In A minor this would be chords that involve the notes F and D#.
>subV7/V
Maybe a secondary dominant of the dominant that's used like a ii chord (a subdominant) instead of like V/V? I've never seen it before either.
>>65813960
N6 - Neopolitan sixth. bII chord in first inversion
+6 - Augmented sixth chord. Various types, they contain #4 and b6
subV7/V - I think he means substitute V7/V, as in the V7 of V (D7 in C, becuse D7 is the V7 of G)
All these chords want to resolve to the V
>>65814470
>>65814440
>tritone substitution of V7 of V
Oh wow, my guess was completely wrong.
So in A minor, instead of BD#F#A, it would be FACEb (or however it is enharmonically)? Does it function differently from a German sixth?
>>65814607
(i keep forgetting to take my trip off)
subV7/V of A minor...
V/Aminor = E
V7/E = B7
dominant 7th chord an augmented fourth up from B7 is E#7
or an "F7" if you spell enharmonically, but i would never do such a disgusting thing
>>65814607
so ya youre correct haha, actually it might be proper to call it F7 if its a b5 instead of a #4 im not sure which is right (or if it matters)
in classical i *believe* its just notated and thought of as an augmented 6th usually, if im not mistaken "tritone substitution" is much more of a jazzer term
>>65814766
Is there a difference between subV7/V and Gr+6 in jazz then?
>>65814766
>jazz pianist
SUBSTITUTE EVERYTHING
INCLUDING TONIC
i love jazz
>28 posters
>185 replies
you can stop shilling nobody cares
>>65815148
ok.
>>65815081
I've actually tried to find use for the major triad with root a tritone above the tonic. Is there one in jazz?
>>65814932
oh sorry what i said was kind of misleading,
The Ger+6 and subV7/V are enharmonically equivalent, i cant really answer cause i dont know anything about jazz at all
>>65815337
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytonality
not quite what you're looking for but you might find it interesting (the first example on the right is C&F#)
>>65815148
>/metal/ has 239 replies with 38 posters
>/jazz/ has 130 replies with 30 posters
>/rym/ has 243 with 52 posters
>k-pop general has 279 with 56 posters
so fuck off
>>65815148
>you can have extended conversations about it therefore its a waste of time
Now this is /mu/!
>>65804140
I don't know enough to comment constructively, but this is fantastic.
>>65814512
>>65814470
Yarn is correct. subV7/V is the tritone substitution of V7 of V. It has the exact same notes as a german/potentially italian augmented 6th chord, but it comes from the jazz/pop/contemporary idiom.
>>65814932
There is no real difference in how they work. The main difference is how they came to be. In the classical idiom, augmented 6th chords were arrived at by chromatic voice leading to the V chord, which is why we use a +6 interval which is kind of dumb but makes sense if you understand the history. In jazz, it comes from tritone root substitution. In C major, V7/V is D7. The tritone in D7 is F# and C, which enharmonically spelt is the tritone in Ab7. In jazz the substitute dominant is used in more varied ways. In classical it is rare to get things such as +6/V or +6/II but you'll get all that shit in jazz. It's also fucking confusing because +6/V resolves to the II of the key which confuses me. In jazz, the expectation for the resolution down a semitone is interrupted deceptively waaay more than classical music. Like yeah, +6 chords will resolve down a 5th deceptively a lot, but in jazz it happens so much more. Anyways.
>>65815337
You can to an extent use #IV-7b5. This is what happened with Stella By Starlight. The original tonic chord was Bb or Bbdiminished7 (auxiliary diminished) but through years of interpretation the agreed upon first two chords are E-7b5 -> A7. I have also heard Gerald Clayton straight up substitute Imaj7 with bVmaj7 and it works but it is jarring because you annihilate the tonic pitch basically.
>>65816670
Thanks anon, but man the sound quality sucks. I wish I could have a proper mic setup and stuff, but I don't have one, my piano is in my living room and even though it's a nice Yamaha upright, I doubt I would get that nice grand sound from it.
>tfw you will never own a nice Steinway grand
>tfw you will never have a room dedicated to recording piano
>tfw you will never be a cheesy new age pianist
>>65815148
thanks for all the bumps you spawned
>>65793199
>Locrian - minor 2nd from 1->2 and 1->5 is a diminished interval so its an absolute joke mode
tell that to debussy
>>65818720
ya ya relax
>>65818720
not sure if debussy used it but Locrian natural 2 is a beautiful mode
>>65818920
Would you post and explain the scale degrees please
>>65819853
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_diminished_scale
>>65819936
>>65819853
when she hit you with dat augmented maj7 structure built from the flat 5
how do i into modal writing?
Another fugue. Literally addicted
https://clyp.it/pgtmdudl
Getting pretty good at TRANQUIL. Also staccato is fun
>>65820803
Choose a mode, write a melody in that mode. Build chords from your modes.
Watch this and other videos on modal harmony or what modes work with which chords
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9biRlN-xOo
I suppose it also depend of if you want to write jazz style modal, or renaissance style modal. They're quite different.
>>65821027
20th century modal. a la geirr tveitt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmE_W-z0qcY
>>65821027
>Majorminor chords
James Bond has entered the building
boob
boom
>>65815945
>beating /jazz/
I feel less proud of /comp/ than I do bad for /jazz/
>no /classical/
>>65824689
We're having some good modal talk over here, /jazz/ guys might like it
>>65821027
How do they differ?
>>65825800
Renaissance pieces tend to stay in one mode, and only use the simple church modes. They also almost completely avoid 7th chords, being more focused on voice leading and polyphony than tunes played over chords.
Jazz on the other hand lives on 7th chords, is often solo lines overt chord progressions, and uses as many modes as its likes throughout a piece, often changing scale or mode for each chord, and often having 4 chords per bar, very fast chord changes. Renaissance period by comparison rarely thinks so much about chords as it does about intervals.
I guess a good comparison would be think of modes as stone. Renaissance music is a simple chapel made of stone bricks, functional, nothing fancy. Jazz would be an avant garde stone sculpture thats interesting to look at, but is more art for arts sake than a functional building to conduct masses in.
Renaissance music also never touches pitch axis.
Anyone got a good jazz book to recommend?
One for chord constructions, the theory behind tensions and substitution, the other one for soloing, especially for the guitar. Preferably one with some example licks that go along with the chords.
What are the best virtual libraries for sibelius?
>>65827001
The Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony is good, it assumes you are already good at music theory.
Modern Jazz Voicings is also good.
What makes a melody beautiful?
>>65828213
All sorts of things
http://edmprod.com/ultimate-melody-guide/
http://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/seven-steps-to-writing-memorable-melodies-part-1--audio-6527
Also beauty can be subjective. What one person might think of as beautiful, another might think as cheesy
>>65828121
Is it possible to 'borrow' the first book?
>>65828310
can't find an ebook so probably not i guess. Nobody was fucked scanning it. I did find "chord scale theory and jazz harmony" which is a similar book though and you can find that easily yourself. Also, Berklee books are the cheapest music text books you'll find at least. Books of similar depth on classical theory will run at least $100 new.
>>65794622
How new music is made without composing it?
The closest thing I can see is field recordings or recordings other waves like plasmawave or seismic wave and etc.. and then assume the data you have in your hands now is a soundwave one and upload it to a sound editor.
BUT even on those cases you must select where you will record the sound, or how the randomization that will select where and when you will record will be done
so it's actually viable to try and teach yourself theory?
>>65828486
Is this the one?
>>65828883
nice
>>65828883
>>65828486
http://davidvaldez.blogspot.sg/2006/04/berklee-jazz-harmony-1-4.html?m=1
>>65828898
no those are smaller school textbooks search for "chord scale theory and jazz harmony shadows"
>>65828931
>shadowgovernment.com
It's legit r-right..
Will we be getting a counterpoint lecture stream? Kind jelly of people posting fugues.
>>65829627
ArtofCounterpoint has some good videos if you're interested. Fux Gradus is what you want to work through if you're dedicated enough. Then the Hugo Foundations in Fugue PDF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcqrGLvs95M
>>65829036
yes nerd boy.
>>65829627
>>65829645
speaking of counterpoint, does anyone else have any "unusual" counterpoint https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeFBXU0P6I
I'm thinking like strict counterpoint but not common practice period stuff
>>65830250
>Unusual counterpoint
Pretty sure this isn't at all what you meant, but writing using the rules of dissonant counterpoint is fun.
>>65830326
yeah that's not what I meant, I want like "pleasant" pure counterpoint that is stylistically different from classical counterpoint. but
>dissonant counterpoint
>species counterpoint but with all the traditional rules reversed
kekking. I'll try this today. Someone give me an instrumentation.
>>65830250
Check out 20th century fugues. For example, Shostakovich and Hindemith wrotes sets of 24 after Bach.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe1vF0bgmb4
>>65783082
Am I allowed to post my pop songs I wrote here?
>>65830532
yeah man, for critique? I'm big into pop song harmony so if you want some help I'm down
>>65830250
Bartok music for strings percussion and celesta starts with a fugue
Anton Reicha and Max Reger fugues could be worth checking out, as well as Shosty and Hindemith as other anon mentioned
Supposedly there's a Ferneyhough piece in strict canon too...
>>65830459
Cello and violin. Or a string trio, or a piano trio.
