Shit TruTrans(tm) say
>I was always shy, never aggressive
>I always played with Barbie and other dolls, never cars, action figures or Lego
>I always cried while watching a sad movie
>I always sat down to pee
>I never liked rough and tumble play
>I never liked sports
>I always chose to be a girl character
>I was always submissive and regularly had fantasies about being raped
>>5747328
I'm "trutrans" but that doesn't mean I can't be the dyke kinda type.
That aside
>I always sat down to pee
>I never liked rough and tumble play
>I always chose to be a girl character
>I was always submissive and regularly had fantasies about being raped
pretty sure not doing at least these makes you the odd one out, "trutrans" or not.
> my digit ratio is greater than 1.1
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio#Male-to-female_transsexual_women
> posts anime girl
>>5747364
>not having a 1:1 digit ratio
AGP please go (to TLG).
>>5747364
1.1 or 1:1?
0.985 dodged the bullet I guess.
>>5747328
Aside from the second and last all those apply to me. As a child I played with anything, legos, bionicles, polly pocket, cut out dolls.
>>5747364
>tfw cisgender male digit ratio
ayy bby wanna fug
>>5747328
You forgot:
>I have only ever been attracted to men
>I always had long hair even though society wanted it short
>I always like the colour pink since I was a fetus
>I never touched my dick even once
>>5747441
>tfw I want short hair even though society tells me to have it long now
>>5747441
don't forget the classic
>i only masturbated by rubbing myself against the bed!
>I always acted overly masculine and straight to repress my degeneracy
>tfw was normal shy friendless awkward male until reading about trannyshit on /lgbt/ gave me dysphoria
>tfw now 2 yrs hrt and have less dysphoria, but am less shy and hapier and have more personality
>>5747328
>As I have said before SRS changes you. It technically is the beginning of a whole new transition. If you have not had srs then you cannot know. I thought I was all woman before srs but a wise ts told me shortly before srs that it will all change after surgery. Of couse like so many pre girls I did not believe her. I was wrong. Now days I can look back with the wisdom of knowing and say that prior to srs you have training wheels and fun. After it becomes a LOT more real.
>By the way for just over 12000 dollars one can get srs by a well known and respected doctor in thailand. That price includes hotel and airfare. I am sorry but I cannot believe that srs is out of the relm of possibility of most people that REALLY want it.
>>5747328
?tru trans?
as opposed to genderfluid special snowflakes?
>>5747328
Not sure what your criteria for trutrans are (I'm sure it doesn't apply to me anyway).
>mostly shy though I hated it when people said that, but I could get very violent at home
>I played with Barbies a few times but that was only when I was over at a girl's house since I didn't have any sisters, and I mostly played with Legos or Power wheels
>I did cry like a bitch for most sad films or moments.
>I never sat down just to pee. I would pull my pants and briefs all the way down to pee standing up. Shit was freeing, man.
>I don't know, my pillow fights with my brothers could get pretty rough, until we started laughing so hard we quickly couldn't hold our grips on the pillows.
>I never did like sports
>I had an anxiety about being caught playing a female character ("do you want to be a girl or something?" is something I didn't want to hear). I only got over it at 14.
>I had no fantasies beyond ignoring others' sexual desires, strangely enough.
>>5747574
I think that's classic hon, actually. After all, you don't get to be a hon without forcing the tranny issue out of your mind until it's too late to do anything about it. I would know, I speak from experience.
>>5747364
>YFW 1.05 Digit Ratio
>Not trans, just femgen fag
Welp, looks like getting pickled by estrogen in the womb doesn't always mean you're MtF
>>5748043
>femgen
You mean /mtfg/ lite? Why don't you come out of the kiddy pool?
>>5748392
Like wearing boy clothes and don't want to present as female so nah. Just cause we might be effeminate doesn't mean we want to be forced into acting like some therapist's caricature and loose control over who we are.
Just want to look girly, not be a girl so implants and Srs are a no.
>>5748500
Indeed. Don't know why trannies have such a hard time accepting men that don't have beards.
>>5748523
Don't blame them given the meds and stuff but they don't automatically mean anything
>>5748523
they see it as a threat
>>5747364
>tfw digit ratio higher than mtf GF's
>tfw 6'4
Thanks, mom.
The only TruTrans things that apply to me are an aversion to rough and tumble play and sports and being submissive and wanting nothing more than to get railed in the vagina I don't have.
>>5747364
>tfw asymmetrical ratios between my left and right hand
What does it mean?
>>5747328
>when I was 14 there was a bug in our classroom and I ended up jumping up and screaming in the middle of class
>>5747328
>I was shy until I became aggressive
>I always was the mommy and made all the figures rape each other.
>I sometimes cried while watching a sad movie but now I always do.
>I always sat down to pee
>BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD SKULLS
>SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE
>I always chose to be a girl character
>I was always dominant and regularly had fantasies about being raped and now have become submissive and want to be raped constantly by tentacles and lay their eggs becoming their brood mother and use them to seize control of the entire planet for myself.
Lol at all the AGP freaks in this thread trying to persuade themselves that they're trans, despite having never done anything feminine before they reached their 20's.
If you weren't always doing these kinds of things it means you aren't trans. I wouldn't even consider myself trutrans, but:
>I was always shy
>never liked sports
>played with boys and girls toys equally
>had long hair
>wasn't comfortable peeing in front of others
>enjoy rough play with guys for the wrong reasons ;)
>chose female characters
>always had submissive fantasies with me as the girl
>I have a 1:1 digit ratio
>>5749075
http://transgenderreality.com
>>5749091
Two can play this game
godhatesfags.com
>>5747328
>most of these are me
>im only a fag
P a n i c
>>5747517
I actually do do that though, and always have.
Still played the shit outta legos and videogames though, and I usually stand to pee when I'm at home.
>>5749023
>that whole list
damn girl are you me?
>>5747328
>FTM
>Truscum
I'm not going to apologize for running around topless with a 22 after drinking beer with my grandpa when I was ten. Or for sneaking out of the house at night to sleep near the pond in a sleeping bag.
I'm sure there are legit femboy trans guys, but I'm not going to pat your back and tell you that you aren't AAP.
>the meaning of trutrans has been bastardised this much
no hope
>>5747328
>shy
>quiet
>deep thinker
>always highly creative
>disliked team sports
>wanted to be a cheerleader
>wanted to play the flute or clarinet
>danced alone
>learned to belly dance
>insisted I be taught both male and female etiquette parts when mom taught them to me and my brother
>designed houses while dreaming of living in them
>painted
>loved the arts
>loved fashion
>designed clothes for the fun of it
>designed clothes and made clothes for the girls down the street
>designed jewelry
>always treated my gfs the way I wanted to be treated
>equal 2d:4d digit lengths
>Shit trans stereotypes say
>>5747328
>usually shy, aggressive when I wasn't
>trains and lego into vidya
>cried at movies and even books
>peed standing
>never roughhoused
>never played sports
>always played as a girl
>prefer oral fantasies to penetrative ones
Am I allowed to be trans?
>>5751048
R u my twin
>>5749370
If the dick having femboys can take estrogen and be complete faggots, then how are the ftm versions any less men than that?
>>5749075
>greentext
Are you me
Transgenderism is sexism repackaged as faux-oppression. :^)
>>5754794
>Medical condition = sexist plot
Cool, you sure showed those doctors, anon!
>>5754817
>:^)
not that anon, but that smiley usually indicates irony, sarcasm or a joke.
>>5754817
Fine, that one was a bit too simplistic.
Second try:
Transgender political ideology is sexism repackaged as progression. :^)
>>5754824
It's basically like "I know people will yell at me for saying this and I don't necessarily have a lot of hope in changing people's ideas but I just had to put it out there because it's the fucking truth."
Kind of a passive aggressive use of ":^)" if you will.
Of course it would be a delight if we could talk about this topic without anybody yelling.
>>5754838
>"I know people will yell at me for saying this and I don't necessarily have a lot of hope in changing people's ideas but I just had to put it out there because it's the fucking truth."
well, that's definitely not an overly complicated use of three symbols that vaguely resembles a smiling face.
>Transgender political ideology is sexism repackaged as progression.
still too simplistic. go for a real approach. i'm bored and may be open for a discussion if you put some effort into it.
>>5754838
Oh, hey racist prick!
You realize this thread was all Trans people mocking the nauseatingly feminine stuff some therapists and others demand their patients be.
Nice reading comprehension.
>>5754904
You mean body dysmorphia?
People being miserable with their bodies or having eating disorders isn't sexist. Neither is the medicine.
People don't say that being or looking girly makes them girls. You're just another idiotic straight man using his religion to tell people they're evil.
People don't say
>>5754904
I think you need to get off the internet and interact with real peeps familia.
>>5754912
See last paragraph of >>5754823.
>>5754923
Sex dysphoria is the psychological condition. Claiming that this condition arises from "really having always been a girl/woman all along" is sexist.
>>5754926
I would actually be interested in meeting IRL transgender people and talking to them but CBA, can't stand people in general.
>>5754904
the female brain stuff is a misunderstanding on your side. it's a small part of the brain that seems to be sexually dimorphic, not the entire brain and it isn't associated with anything but an innate sense of gender identity, not stereotypes.
not all trans are into women and know that sex is nothing they are owed. there is only few trans people (yes, trans men exist too) that even want to use their genitals.
those are very likely coping mechanisms because people are invalidated because of their genitals.
another misunderstanding on your part. trans women and men transition because of body dysphoria. that's what the treatment is for. you feel extreme discomfort with your body being of a certain sex. the personality traits are ways for trans people to explain themselves to cis people who usually aren't able to understand anything and look for ways to invalidate trans people. the second paragraph is answered by this too.
cont.
>>5754932
>Claiming that this condition arises from "really having always been a girl/woman all along"
Strawman on your part. The brain abnormalities which are extensive btw make it impossible to have a decent quality of life without treatment.
Maybe some people might claim medically transitioning and being at peace with themselves makes it so, but that isn't your strawman.
>interested in meeting IRL
As if anybod would want anything to do with some piggish neonazi who thinks his being a nice guy makes him vitruous
>>5754935
Those are just salty hons. Don't let then get to you.
>>5754935
>Huh? What are you smoking?
You went last thread and ranted nonstop about how boys looking like women is horible and on par to slavery.
You aren't just delusional and opposed to any self expression or anyone being dif, you're also some demented straight white guy going and apropriating other so you can bash your fags and feel good for it.
>>5754904
cont.
blah blah about exceptionally female woman. trans people, trans women in this case, see what they can't have when they see women. they see what half of the worlds population has just by being born and growing up and what they can never fully achieve. seeing exceptionally good looking women is just another rubbing salt into the wound. generally seeing people of the other gender, as long as they aren't deformed or ugly, will usually induce dysphoria.
becoming a mother is just another thing that most women can take for granted and will often see as a major and beautiful moment in their life, for some it's multiple moments, so trans women will get dysphoric because they can't birth a child.
>"deeper ideals of transgenderism"
i don't even... what? if you make being transgender into a political thing, that's on you. not trans people. we just try to get accepted as our target gender.
>>5754923
>You mean body dysmorphia?
entirely different condition and a psychological one.
>Sex dysphoria is the psychological condition
gender dysphoria is recognized as a physical condition.
>>5754940
Funny claims coming for you
>>5754934
>a small part of the brain that seems to be sexually dimorphic, not the entire brain and it isn't associated with anything but an innate sense of gender identity
What is "an innate sense of gender identity" if not an implication that women and men have specific innate psychological differences? (I.e. a sexist idea.) You say it has nothing to do with stereotypes of femininity, but what then?
>trans women and men transition because of body dysphoria
Can we perhaps agree that transgenderism is/should in essence be defined by nothing other than sex dysphoria? (Which I would say has nothing to do with "innate gender identity.")
>>5754938
>Strawman
No actually the newest shit is to call transitioning "gender confirmation".
So now trans women are and have always been females in their essence. This is the latest state of transgender activism.
>>5754943
>trans people, trans women in this case, see what they can't have when they see women. they see what half of the worlds population has just by being born and growing up and what they can never fully achieve. seeing exceptionally good looking women is just another rubbing salt into the wound.
OK, so it's just sex dysphoria you say.
Again, if we could agree that transgenderism should be defined as sex dysphoria and that pro-trans political activists who claim things beyond that are full of shit, then we probably agree on the most important things.
>becoming a mother is just another thing that most women can take for granted and will often see as a major and beautiful moment in their life
Well that's something their socially conditioned into by the patriarchy. Motherhood/being-a-good-wife is put on a pedestal because it proves a woman's loyalty to the patriarchy. (Note how single mothers receive shit.)
I can understand that it's entirely unintentional but the idealization of motherhood seems problematic to me, and trans women should ideally understand that and be more respectful towards women's oppression...
>>5754958
>something their socially conditioned into
they're
Wow, I'm on par with native English speakers now.
More corrections:
>>5754958
>transgenderism should be defined as sex dysphoria
Well, so long as gender is still a thing --and we're nowhere near reaching a gender abolished society-- I guess gender dysphoria will also be an aspect of it. Don't think there's many trans people who, after getting their female body, are fine wearing masculine clothing...
So sex and gender dysphoria, fine. And one cannot blame them for getting these conditions, and they might not find any better solution than to indeed transition. So far so good, but as soon as they claim that this makes them true women or anything like that, we tread into sexist territory.
>>5754958
>to call transitioning "gender confirmation"
They're talking about medicine. Having their body conform. It's the same as ana.
>>5754958
>What is "an innate sense of gender identity" if not an implication that women and men have specific innate psychological differences?
It's a hormonally derived condition, we know that. There's studies by cohen and others that demonstrate a variety of genes responsible for neurological development are regulated by sex steroids.
It's dimorphism that's responsible for it, saying it results in the issues with body and sense of self isn't sexist. Abnormally high prenatal estrogen levels do have a link, you see that in 2d4d.
>>5754958
What again gives some sick racist straight guy like you any say to judge fags on morality? Your creepy "protection" of women isn't wanted.
>>5754958
>something their socially conditioned into by the patriarchy
Some people just want kids. Your creepy idolization of women isn't justification enough to condemn them for that.
>>5754973
>Creepy nice guy saying that someone who medically transitioned thinking of themselves as a woman is immoral cause of his women
>>5754958
>What is "an innate sense of gender identity"
the sense of which gender you identify as. it's as simple as being unhappy with having the body you were born with and when being assigned or addressed as your birth sex.
>Can we perhaps agree that transgenderism is/should in essence be defined by nothing other than sex dysphoria?
gender. it's fucking gender dyshoria. learn the terminology. tell me the definition you perceive it to be right now.
>Again, if we could agree that transgenderism should be defined as sex dysphoria and that pro-trans political activists who claim things beyond that are full of shit, then we probably agree on the most important things.
what are you even arguing against? i don't know about the arguments you argue against so i can't say anything.
>Well that's something their socially conditioned into by the patriarchy.
well yeah, being forced into gender stereotypes is shitty but pretending that most women and men don't feel comfortable and want to be, at least partly, a part of the gender stereotypes is denying reality. don't project your disdain against them, which i do not condemn, onto others.
>(Note how single mothers receive shit.)
single mothers get much more attention and money than single fathers. often fathers do not get custody even though they it would be beneficial to the child in certain cases.
>I can understand that it's entirely unintentional but the idealization of motherhood seems problematic to me,
how and why?
>>5754979
Confirmation, not conformation. As in, the person says "I've always been a girl/woman really", and then their body is feminized to "confirm" that indeed they are female.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/loren-s-schechter-md-facs/gender-confirmation-surgery_b_1442262.html
>It's a hormonally derived condition, we know that.
I'm skeptic, but even if it were proven that sex dysphoria is biologically rooted, that would still basically just mean that a guy having that condition is a male who due to a certain condition wants to have a female body... He's born male, raised and socialized male, and his body remains male except for what HRT and surgeries can change. I'm fine with considering well-transitioned people to be women in this gendered society, but they have to accept that they aren't women in the sense actual adult female humans are.
And then there's the gender dysphoria aspect, where I'm even more skeptical that hormones and such could cause someone to socially sympathize/identify more with women. That seems primarily related to personality to me. I for instance very strongly sympathize with women and tend to be most happy in the company of women. But I'm fine with my male body and acknowledge that I'm just an adult male person, a man, who shits on the concept of manliness.
>>5754996
>the sense of which gender you identify as.
An outsider of a group can claim to "identify with" that group because they admire that group, and they might try to fit in with varying degrees of success, but it doesn't make them a member of that group, especially not so if the group is truly identified by a biological marker such as sex.
>being unhappy with having the body you were born with
Well that's just sex dysphoria. I'd distinguish that from the notion of "gender identity".
>what are you even arguing against? i don't know about the arguments you argue against so i can't say anything.
I'm arguing against the idea that trans women are true women, and meaning to point out that trans women often appropriate womanhood to some degree, going as far as fetishizing stereotypical femininity. It might not be their intention, but they should understand that they do this and that it's problematic.
>pretending that most women and men don't feel comfortable and want to be, at least partly, a part of the gender stereotypes is denying reality
Someone who understands feminist critique of our culture would awaken to the fact that this desire has been instilled in them through coercion, though. So in this case trans women are appropriating womanhood by idealizing/fetishizing a desire which actual women have only because of their sexist socialization.
>single mothers get much more attention and money
I meant social stigma.
>how and why?
Appropriation. Pic related.
Gotta go for 40 minutes now.
>>5755013
>actual adult female humans
in what sense are actual adult female humans women?
>I for instance very strongly sympathize with women and tend to be most happy in the company of women. But I'm fine with my male body and acknowledge that I'm just an adult male person, a man, who shits on the concept of manliness.
good for you that you do not have gender dysphoria. but don't pretend that you're experience equals everybody elses experience.
>especially not so if the group is truly identified by a biological marker such as sex.
first off. i don't think it is proper argumentation to pick my sentence apart that much just to have a point. anyways tell me how it is truly identified?
>Well that's just sex dysphoria. I'd distinguish that from the notion of "gender identity".
how? put some more effort into it or i'll be gone. don't just throw random definitions and opinions out without clarifying.
>fetishizing
tell me what you think fetishizing means because i start to doubt that you know what it means. also what are "true women"?
>Someone who understands feminist critique of our culture would awaken to the fact that this desire has been instilled in them through coercion,
so everyone that has different preferences and disagrees with you is just plain wrong? great way to look at the world. must be comforting.
>I meant social stigma.
that's not a lot to say to my argument about how men are more opressed in that regard. how do single fathers have less social stigma?
>Appropriation. Pic related.
i don't know if you didn't understand a single thing of what i said already or if you know what you are talking about in the first sense. also i get the feeling that you don't know how to properly argue which explains why you seem to attract people that yell at you.
>Gotta go for 40 minutes now.
i'll be sure to check for a reply later then.
>>5747574
I don't like your usage of the word "degeneracy", but I must admit I find these kinds of statements annoying. When someone says "I'm really a woman on the inside, but I act masculine because I've repressed it for so long". It never convinces me very much.
>>5755038
>if you know what you are talking about in the first sense
*if you don't know
>>5749075
Your identity is built around tropes and cliches. Kys, please.
>inb4 spotted the hon
Just a regular gay dude that thinks some stereotypes are completely retarded.
>>5755038
>in what sense are actual adult female humans women?
In that they're (born) female.
>good for you that you do not have gender dysphoria
Well, I have a schizoid personality disorder presumably because I can't socialize with men (and since puberty, socialization with girls/women is also stunted due to sexuality related things), for which reason I've had depression since around the age 12, progressively worsening to a very serious suicide attempt at 17, and generally being unable to enjoy life in any meaningful way. Only slowly recovering lately.
What I'm trying to say with that is, gender boxes can probably cause a variety of problems in men, and dysphoria is but one of them. In particular it's not a condition that makes them any less male. It's just one of many possible disorders that can arise in males due to the gender boxes.
>tell me how it is truly identified?
In general, men and women are identified biologically. That much is obvious. The biological traits of women/females, and being born with those traits, are what make them a clearly identifiable group of oppressed people. Changing the semantics of "woman" to include men with gender dysphoria is arguably quite insulting to this class of oppressed people.
>>I'd distinguish that from the notion of "gender identity".
>how?
When you say sex dysphoria you can still acknowledge that a male is identified as a member of the class men.
When one introduces the notion of gender identity, that allows him to just state that he "identifies with women" and people are expected to uncritically accept that now he is part of that class, as if having a biological or psychological condition like that makes him equivalent to female people in any way.
>what you think fetishizing means
In this case, an adoration/admiration of an unrealistically idealized vision of something, e.g. motherhood. In truth motherhood is hard and awful, and women are pressured into it. Idealizing and glamorizing it is disrespectful.
(cont.)
>>5755038
>what are "true women"?
Adult female persons.
>so everyone that has different preferences and disagrees with you is just plain wrong?
Eh? You assert that everyone wants to conform to gender stereotypes to some degree, I accept your assertion but assert that this is due to social coercion, and you say I'm being unfair?
>men are more opressed in that regard
Oh please. Women are oppressed as a class of people forced into a social hierarchy called gender. Men are above them in this hierarchy. Men are not "oppressed" in any way by women, they suffer collateral damage from gender stereotypes, from being lower than other men in different hierarchies, etc.
>i don't know if you didn't understand a single thing of what i said already or if you know what you are talking about in the first sense.
I get the feeling that you don't know what "appropriation" means?
>>5755165
>The biological traits of women/females, and being born with those traits, are what make them a clearly identifiable group of oppressed people.
traits that would exclude infertile women or women with XY chromosomes or women with missing or deformed vaginas/uterus? women that have deformed breasts or too much testosterone due to medical reasons? it's quite telling that you can't even define what you are talking about.
>Well, I have...
so you're train of thought is that because you have problems because gender stereotypes means everybody else has problems because of gender stereotypes? you think your anecdote has any meaning for medical conditions that may look similar to you but in reality are two different things?
>When one introduces the notion of gender identity, that allows him to just state that he "identifies with women" and people are expected to uncritically accept that now he is part of that class, as if having a biological or psychological condition like that makes him equivalent to female people in any way.
okay, first off: we know we aren't cis women. however the term women applies to 3.5 billion different people that vary in appearance and biology so much that it literally means nothing. it seems like you are the sexist one.
>In this case, an adoration/admiration of an unrealistically idealized vision of something, e.g. motherhood. In truth motherhood is hard and awful, and women are pressured into it. Idealizing and glamorizing it is disrespectful.
so you do not know what a fetish is. hint: it's something sexual. also telling women how they feel about certain things and assuming they have no saying in their own life is pretty sexist. besides it's completely untrue to say that women have to be mothers in todays western society.
cont.
>>5755200
>Eh? You assert that everyone wants to conform to gender stereotypes to some degree, I accept your assertion but assert that this is due to social coercion, and you say I'm being unfair?
so you assume that everybody who doesn't agree with you doesn't have a free will and their own opinion but is brainwashed by a faceless society. there is a period instead of a question mark for the reason that this is exactly what you are implying.
>Women are oppressed as a class of people forced into a social hierarchy called gender.
you've learned that nicely, now put it in your own words. how are women oppressed? i gave you an example for how they are privileged over men and you are throwing buzzwords at me.
>the idealization of motherhood is problematic because of appropriation
how does that make sense and is an appropriate explanation to my question?
>to take or use (something) especially in a way that is illegal, unfair, etc.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/appropriating
>>5755217
>infertile women
No, those still have clear biological markers of femininity (genitalia).
>women with XY chromosomes
No such thing, unless you're speaking of some exceptional cases where a male baby's genitalia are under-developed and mistaken to be a vagina, in which case society perceives the baby as female and assigns it to the female cast.
>women with missing or deformed vaginas/uterus?
If it's still identifiable as a vagina, the child will be assigned female.
And so on.
I'm not sure why we should put highly exceptional minorities into the center of our social analysis. Women and men are identified via vaginas and penises respectively. Anomalies exist, but don't change this rule.
>so you're train of thought is ...
I've explained in the other paragraph why I was mentioning that. Here:
>>What I'm trying to say with that is, gender boxes can probably cause a variety of problems in men, and dysphoria is but one of them. In particular it's not a condition that makes them any less male. It's just one of many possible disorders that can arise in males due to the gender boxes.
In other words, I don't see what's special about dysphoria and how it makes a person born and raised male any less male. Repeating what I said in another thread: I could see trans women as males suffering under the cultural construct of gender, who want to take refugee under women, but I don't see how it makes sense to see them as true women.
>we know we aren't cis women
The term "cis women" implies that the most general category is "women" and that "cis women" and "trans women" are two equal subcategories. They are not. "Cis" women are the woman-women; trans women are males with gender/sex dysphoria who want to take refugee under women. They might be accepted as a "woman" in many cases in daily life if they successfully transition, but they should not get offended when a woman points out that they are not a woman in what would be the most ideal definition of the word: adult females
>>5755018
You can dramatically alter sex traits and people who are medically Intersex can be counted with the larger sex group they're closer to.
That is the way we've always done things and no amount of your hikejacking what racial minorities go through for your conical and racist ploy will change that.
>>5755238
>you assume that everybody who doesn't agree with you doesn't have a free will and their own opinion but is brainwashed by a faceless society
From what I take from what you're saying, you assume that women are biologically predestined to desire to fit into the feminine gender stereotype, which contains traits such as passivity and submission, i.e. you say they are biologically predestined to their oppression.
Tell me which opinion is more insulting: that women who want to fit into femininity are brainwashed via oppression, or that they are biologically doomed to desire being passive and submissive?
>how are women oppressed?
They are forced into the female gender role which is passive, submissive, less intellectually capable, fit for being a housewife, and so on and so forth.
But I would have hoped that I don't need to give a feminism 101 course here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation
Trans women, as biological males who are not part of the social group called women, take the idea of motherhood, which is something experienced by women, and glamorize that idea, and claim that they desire it, find it admirable, etc., when they have never, will never, and could never experience what it really is like to go through pregnancy and childbirth.
If you don't see why that's problematic, then sorry, I can't clarify any further.
Even before I knew I was trans, I've always rubbed the underside of my penis head to masturbate. I can't do it any other way. I guess it kinda makes sense because I do have genital dysphoria and the jerking off motion feels really strange and isn't satisfying.
Is anyone else like this or am I just weird?
>>5755018
That pic doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Pretty much everyone agrees that gender roles are arbitrary and meaningless, and forcing men in women into little gender boxes is only harmful. And doing the opposite isn't really appropriation.
>>5755275
Are you schizophrenic? Legit question.
>>5755248
>women are biologically predestined to desire
We've said that neurology controls everyone's sense of self and their individual personalities. And that certain disorders caused by hormonal abnormalies can mess people up.
Doesn't equate ago saying all men or women are a single way.
You've turned inoffensive neurology into a crime. We won't ban science just because a fundy like you hates the docs.
>>5755284
I'm not but the straight white guy who justifies his racism and hatred of those different by claiming he is a feminist sure is.
Being a nice guy for women doesn't make you right.
>>5755277
>They are forced into the female gender role which is passive, submissive, less intellectually capable, fit for being a housewife
What the hell is going on in this thread? Some kind of 4chan time machine?
Listen to me, 50s feminist, on Nov. 22, 1963 there will be an assassination attempt on President John F. Kennedy. Stop it at all costs.
>>5755248
>No such thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
tell me more about how you don't know shit. you still haven't given out a clear definition how to define a true women or men. what about those that can't be defined either way? and why do you base these definitions on societys sexist ideas of how a man and women has to look like?
>Anomalies exist, but don't change this rule.
because trans people are a highly exceptional minority that show that there is more to a women than the sex. we literally show that women and men have structures in their brain that mostly conform but can disagree with their birth sex.
> I don't see what's special about dysphoria
you don't see anything because everything in your world revolves around gender stereotypes. there is nothing else.
>They are not.
and who are you to say that?
>who want to take refugee under women
why do men want to take refugee under women when women are oppressed ones? why are there many trans women who repress themselves and are ashamed of them? why do trans men exist?
>Tell me which opinion is more insulting: that women who want to fit into femininity are brainwashed via oppression, or that they are biologically doomed to desire being passive and submissive?
holy fuck are you serious? you are putting extreme negativity onto femininity, passiveness and submissiveness. you don't even acknowledge the fact that some people find those traits much more desirable than masculine traits. fuck, you're sexist saying that the way most women like to live and express themselves is a fate that is equivalent to being "doomed".
>They are forced into the female gender role which is passive, submissive, less intellectually capable, fit for being a housewife, and so on and so forth.
oh, for fucks sake and you call us sexist? did you ever think about the possibility that other people have different opinions on how they want to live?
cont.
>>5755281
>Pretty much everyone agrees that gender roles are arbitrary and meaningless
Not everyones a fag like you.
>>5755277
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation
that definition doesn't fit with your argument. it literally can't fit. we can't birth children so we literally can't appropriate that. what you said isn't appropriation. it's jealousy. yeah jealousy is problematic but for those that have it as it's a shitty feeling.
>>5755281
>I've always rubbed the underside of my penis head to masturbate
As a male who shits on masculinity and lives out his sexuality in comfy ways, I do that very often. Less friction, more targeted stimulation.
>>5755295
>the straight white guy who justifies his racism and hatred of those different by claiming he is a feminist
Yup, you're definitely schizophrenic.
That, or smoking some seriously crass shit.
>>5755292
>neurology controls everyone's sense of self and their individual personalities
[citation needed]
>Doesn't equate [to] saying all men or women are a single way.
It does very much equate to saying that men and women *in general* are the way gender stereotypes say they are, or are naturally predisposed to desire being that way.
This is plain old sexist pseudoscience, nothing new.
>>5755302
>Listen to me, 50s feminist, on Nov. 22, 1963 there will be an assassination attempt on President John F. Kennedy. Stop it at all costs.
I love you anon
>>5755339
>It does very much equate to saying that men and women *in general* are the way gender stereotypes say they are, or are naturally predisposed to desire being that way.
do you even know why gender stereotypes exist? because just some hundred years ago life was still so uncomfortable and hard that men and women had to specialize according to their biological advantages and disadvantages. men had to be caretakers and women had to take care of children because otherwise they wouldn't survive. because there wasn't any fucking advanced technology and everything was extremely limited. yeah that shit isn't relevant anymore since like a hundred years ago but yes, men and women are different biologically. and surprise, in western society it is an exception for you to be forced to be any way than you want to be. and i mean forced in the traditional sense of being beaten and actually forced not just discouraged like you may want to argue.
>>5755307
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
I already said
>exceptional cases where a male baby's genitalia are under-developed and mistaken to be a vagina, in which case society perceives the baby as female and assigns it to the female cast
Leaving aside the exact semantics of "male" and "female", the point here is that the person is perceived as being biologically female. Something that doesn't apply to males with sex/gender dysphoria.
>trans people are a highly exceptional minority that show that there is more to a women than the sex
You're going on the presumption that trans women *are* women; that's exactly what we're disputing. Let's not go in circles.
>women and men have structures in their brain that mostly conform but can disagree with their birth sex
Leaving aside that this is an under-researched topic, it doesn't justify saying that these people are "true" women/men; see >>5754862.
>you don't see anything because everything in your world revolves around gender stereotypes
You're jumping the shark now.
My world revolves mostly around the social groups into which people are assigned at birth. Males with sex/gender dysphoria are born into the male/man group. Their dysphoria and gender non-conformity gives them a reason to seek refugee under women and transition.
>and who are you to say that?
I gave you my reasoning for why I don't see trans women as simply "women, period".
>why do men want to take refugee under women when women are oppressed ones?
Because they can't properly live as men at all.
>trans women who repress themselves and are ashamed of them
Desiring to be accepted as a refugee *is* something shame-inducing.
Note I'm also talking about subconscious processes. I'm not saying that gender dysphoric males sit down and consciously say to themselves "I'm male but I can't live under men because of gender stereotypes so how about I ask women whether they'll accept me".
>trans men
Women who (understandably) loath femininity.
>>5747328
Is there a FTM equivalent of this?
>>5755307
>you are putting extreme negativity onto femininity, passiveness and submissiveness
The gender stereotype of femininity is basically ritualized submission, yes. People of any gender can have a passive/sensitive personality and exploited for being so, but women are actively forced into being that way and exploited especially.
>>5755318
I see your point, but whether you literally do give birth and idealize it without understanding how women experience it, or whether you just idealize your vision/image of giving birth without experiencing it at all, it's mostly the same intellectual crime, no? Could almost say the latter is worse...
>>5755381
That's bullshit though. See how common it is for men to breed as many children as possible and then force their wife and children to work on the fields.
See how women have been excluded from economy, politics, etc. despite being every bit as intelligent as men.
And so on.
I think I'll leave it here since this isn't really going anywhere. I can only hope that some of the things I said stuck with a couple people.
>>5755275
>>5755333
Not really, I'm just willing to call out a German biggot for appropriating racial minorities to justify his bigotry.
And by the way we've always let intersex people join the sex they want to be or are closer to and people who have medically transitioned are biologically that so It's hardly the horrible thing you say it is.
>>5755413
>German biggot for appropriating racial minorities
Take less drugs.
>>5755307
>>5755411
Chromosomes aren't responsible for sex development, they're just structures for Mitotic segregation and don't even exist during interphase. They aren't genes, they don't determine what gets transcribed.
It's almost exclusively autosomal genes that control sex development. You're demanding we reject those and the model built around them over a classical genetics system that was discredited when they found the central dogma.
>>5755417
After you quit insulting everyone who isn't white by equating boys looking like girls to blackface.
>>5754817
>implying "I wanted to play with Barbies as a kid" is a real sign of a medical condition
What gets people approved for transition hardly indicates that ANYONE considers it a "real medical condition," including the therapists that get people approved. Transition exists to cull gender-variance.
>>5755457
>barbies diagnosis
Shouting conspiracy theories won't make your neonazi shit less fake.
The DSM and other criteria used depend on body dysmorphia and other sex characteristics. It's also got a strong association with biomarkers like 2d:4d
Shouting anti intellectual falicies and claiming Magnus Hirschfeld and his successors make it all about dolls when they don't just shows you for what you are.
You can only make the patients and Jew doctors evil with the most ridiculous of straw men.
>>5755457
>Dysphoria over sex characteristics and letting boys look like girls is wrong
>all boys should look like men
>medical transition is a sham conspiracy pushed by the medical community
>>5755509
You've stepped all over everyone who's brown with your claims about racism equaling the horrors of effeminate boys violating the purity of your white women.
You claimed that medical transition was invented by doctors as some barbie plot to taint society in degeneracy.
Invented by a Jewish doctor called Magnus Hirschfeld. You've literally made your arguments around a neonazi mythos.
>>5755504
Doesn't change the fact that most of the DSM GID criteria revolve around body dysmophia.
>>5755554
>you need a victim complex to be trans
>>5755566
>The individual must be preoccupied with one or more nonexistent or slight defects or flaws in their physical appearance.
https://bdd.iocdf.org/professionals/diagnosis/
http://www.ifge.org/302.85_Gender_Identity_Disorder_in_Adolescents_or_Adults
can't find DSM 5 right now but no, you are wrong.
>>5755339
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24119295
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877116/
Try these, or anything by the Cohenists. They've based all of their data on things like transcript levels so it's very cut and dry hard science with controls.
You claim to know biology despite not having any higher education in that discipline, but the moment biology gets brought up you cry foul.
You also bring up chromosomes when they aren't relevant either and molecular genetics has proven that. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18348162 http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
It's literally a weird antiintellectualism crossed with conspiracy theories you use in their stead.
>>5755637
>1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]
>2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]
>3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
>>5755665
that's not in the slightest BDD. gender dysphoric individuals recognize their bodys as what they are and feel discomfort over it. BDD people have a disturbed or warped view of their own body.
i.e. a gender dysphoric trans women sees that she has a shoulder width that is not in the average female width and feels uncomfortable about it.
i.e. a BDD person perceives their shoulder width as not in the average female width even though it is and feels uncomfortable about it.
they aren't mutually exclusive though.
>>5755457
>>5755457
>hardly indicates that ANYONE considers it a "real medical condition,
https://www.lambdalegal.org/sites/default/files/publications/downloads/fs_professional-org-statements-supporting-trans-health_1.pdf
>An established body of medical research demonstrates the effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery as forms of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID ... Therefore,be it RESOLVED, that the AMA supports public and private health insurance coverage for treatment of gender identity disorder.”
Egotistical idiot, you don't know more than medical consensus.
>>5755696
>Egotistical idiot, you don't know more than medical consensus.
not that anon. i thought these radfem idiots were just a shitty meme. especially the apologetic feminist guys. fuck, i wasn't prepared for this.
>>5747328
>I was always shy, never aggressive
>I always cried while watching a sad movie
>I was always submissive
These apply to me, I guess I'm not Truscum.
>>5747517
I actually did that when I was really young.
Before I ever knew that it was weird or bad to do it I always did it kind of stealthy while watching TV with my family in the room. Not really humping, but like swaying my hips/body to the left and right. When I finally realized that was kinda fucked up I was so fucking embarrassed. My parents probably knew.
>>5755731
What's more, he's some straight German guy who says he hates fags. He thinks feminism is cover to talk shit about how they ruin the purity of everything.
Seems pretty much an ass about nonwhites and stuff too, but that's okay cause he said it's all aceptable cause his feminism.
It's literally just like the people who use religion to justify their shitty behavior.
>>5755773
You realize nearly everyone here mocks the people who claim that.
>>5755731
That just goes to show that feminism serves as cover for far-right hate groups that dispise the diferent and anyone who helps them with meds.
>>5755811
it's worse, they want women to live exactly the way they want them to live too. that it's the opposite of how women were traditionally expected to live doesn't make it any better. i hope this is only the loud minority though it doesn't even matter if it's a minority as long as they are loud and aren't objected by the majority.
>>5755804
to make up how less of a man they are
>>5755905
Utterly disgusting how it's a fedora tire straight man telling women and the like that he's the only one who knows what's right for them.
>>5747328
ITT:SJW and ironic dipshits.
>>5755402
i think no, FTM are chill as fuck and dont like critize others, not like females, both trans and cis.
>>5749075
> Lol at all the AGP freaks in this thread trying to persuade themselves that they're trans, despite having never done anything feminine before they reached their 20's.
Literally my first criteria when I was basically self-diagnoising was that there was a historical basis for it. I have plenty memories pertaining to wanting to be a girl or being depressed that I wasn't since primary school. Heck, I had exclusively female friends (we'd all 'play' Sailor Moon together, I wanted to be Serena but I had to be freakin' Tuxedo Mask, why) until I changed to an all-boys school. Always secretly watched blatant female programming (Totally Spies, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, etc. etc.), and adored Sailor Moon growing up.
I think the big ones here though is wanting to wear women's clothing in primary, pining after my sister's skirt for years (but always restraining myself out of fear of being discovered), wanting a particular cute pink tanktop that I saw in a store when I was with my folks, and being uncomfortable, almost exhibistionic about showing off my chest while swimming, and wondering why I couldn't wear the 'other' suits instead. The only thing I really could do was angle my arms in front of my chest vertically until I was in the water, and even then. I continue to do it to this day. There's plenty of other examples from way back then, pre-puberty.
I've thought about transitioning since middle school, but worried about what friends and especially, family would say. Only doing it now, at 23, and I have my share of regrets about not doing it earlier, but at least I'm doing it.
>>5759662
Is it worth it?
I too was depressed about not being a girl. (my most memorable daydream from elementary school age was that I went to sleep and woke up as a girl). Also used to pray every night to god that I would wake up as a girl, then later on satan (lol) because god didn't answer me.
I thought it was normal up until 13~ and then realized it wasn't normal to want to be a girl.
>>5747517
I was a late bloomer. Literally, the only reason I started masturbating was because of boredom, and I remembered it was a thing while lying in bed trying to find something to do one sleepy school night.
I was like, 17 and my first attempts revolved around grinding a pillow and treating it like you would a clit (rubbing/massaging, etc. etc.). I had to google 'how does I masturbate' after a couple of failed attempts to hit orgasm, and even then it took several attempts to get the super basic 'I cast fist' technique down enough to cum.
The rest was basically ritualized masturbation to pass the time. The weird thing was I was one of the smart kids with crazy grades and basically acted as a TA for two of my classes, so it's not like it should have been that tough, or difficult to figure it out.
Whatever. I really, really don't miss that incessant sex drive. It's nice to have peace of mind once in a while.
>>5759662
>being uncomfortable, almost exhibistionic about showing off my chest while swimming, and wondering why I couldn't wear the 'other' suits instead
this so much. I've always been so uncomfortable with having my chest exposed and would always ask my mom if I could wear a shirt whenever we'd go swimming; she never let me though.
>>5759674
I thought it was totally normal. I had some fairly strange beliefs in early middle school that I used to justify the way I felt. 'Oh, you should get to choose your gender before puberty, that's gotta be the way things work, right!', using the guy with moobs as an example of someone who was choosing to become a girl. Never did I suspect that reality would be so cruel.
> (my most memorable daydream from elementary school age was that I went to sleep and woke up as a girl)
My most memorable dream from back then had something to do with me becoming a magical girl or something to that effect and finally living the life I wanted. Something innocent like that.
> Is it worth it?
Can't say yet. I'm still in the middle of my transition. Started at 23 and I'm a year in. My hips were sadly already fused at that point, and with them I'd have the potential to look 100% cis so it's a pretty hefty loss I still cry my eyes out over. On the other end, fat redistribution gave me a nice ass, a flat chest (somehow bigger than my cis sister's though), and a 26-27 inch waist. Most of my changes not having to do with fat redistribution were pertaining to skin tone, which lightened (though it's not alpine white), and my facial features, which went from somewhat gaunt-looking to healthy and full, with cheek apples and all that. (cont.)
>>5759685
I've been trained like a monkey over these past couple decades. I'm nowhere near as uncomfortable as I was initially, though I gotta say the awkwardest times was when I was changing with a bunch of guys for gym or whatnot, and I was always apprehensive about... well everything - people seeing my body, me seeing theirs - really, just the egregarious lack of privacy caused no end of anxiety.
>>5759712
> Is it worth it.
cont.
Despite my awful luck (ironically super high T in my youth + hips fused), I still seem to be on-track for a marginally positive result. My facial features, despite rife with moderate acne scarring, is almost entirely feminine, excluding the brow/forehead, which I plan on getting type 3 forehead reconstruction and a brow lift to correct. I might get a lip lift as well to complete it, as well, but it's more of an aesthetic choice than one that will make me pass. Generally speaking, if everything goes without a hitch, I should look slightly above average cis without makeup, and def. cute with it, facially.
My body is where things start getting dicey. Flat, semi-noticeable chest, 26"-27" slender waist, 30" underbust, and, sadly, boxy, but not broad shoulders. My hips only clock at around 34"-35", and most of that is ass, so basically my body is. I'm basically a CLAMP noodleperson, complete with an almost 2D profile and wearing size 0s.
On the bright side, my hands aren't overly huge and my wrists are tiny (like, can't-find-a-bracelet-to-fit-them-tiny). Legs are very slender / I'm underweight, and so my leg joints stick out a bit. Feet are size 8 1/2s precisely, so I often opt for 9s. I'm 5'9" height-wise (lost 2.5" on HRT), so no problems there.
Generally things are looking up. Still chronically depressed because I'm not there yet, and I feel like I'm wasting my time waiting for my FFS date, but I don't know how comfortable I can be without that one thing done.
>>5751925
>If the dick having femboys can take estrogen and be complete faggots, then how are the ftm versions any less men than that?
Because ftms aren't male. Plus its cheating the cuteness game if you start out female.
>>5754912
>Nice reading comprehension.
Reading is a tool of the patriarchy. Real womyn keep their herstory stored in their ovaries. Praise be to Gaia!
>>5747328
>delusional denial
You were feeling that way becuase you lack a lot of love and atention, attention is the first thing sick gay ppl want to get, becuase they want to be a special snow flake lmao
but what you dontknow is that your parents just fucked up
You are the result of a failed mariage from autistic ppl, your mom got pregnant from the first stupid shit, and there you go, here comes OP sissy little faggot poor thing.
remember faggots if you cant get pussy, ir even have tryed pussy, you are just a biggot gay becuase you cant get it thats why you get dick becuase you are a loser stupid shit who cant relate to women,
>>5759712
who was it annon? moomy or daddy?
Why does ppl only talk how they feel gay, why dont you talk about the real reason you feel gay?
>>5755765
Lots of guys do that. It has nothing to do with being trans or gay or anything. Its common in all males (and females) to hump things at the start of puberty and even orgasm from it
