Which -
>was more advanced
>would win a war
I put money on the zulu. Aztecs had only one more or less effective weapon, a stick with obsidian chips. Zulus had metal tipped lances.
Zulus had a more developed martial tradition than the Aztecs and had steel and guns, but I guess that's all they've got going for them.
Both were shit and got BTFO by the white man, but here's my opinion:
Aztec weapons were not supposed to kill, their weapons were made of wood so they could knock out their enemies and take them prisoners. Shitty weapons, that's the reason they got destroyed by the European males
I guess Zulu wins
>>1285775
I'm giving this too the Zulu, Aztecs didn't even have metalworking
>>1285775
>who was more advanced
>who would win
>thinks history is literally a game of Civilization and tech trees.
>thinks you can just straight up compare two civilizations who never had any contact whatsoever and existed at different periods
I want /v/ to leave.
Fuck you.
Zulus because fuck "NOSOTROS FUE REYES Y MIERDA" drug lord beaners.
>>1285775
If you put 500 on one side of an open field and 500 on the other, I'd bet on Zulus, but in a a real fight you'd have to consider other stuff like supply lines and fortifications.
Amerindians were pretty good at farming and were doing OK at architecture and masonry. So, I'd say it's a matter of how much prep time they'd have.
>>1285825
right, because a German Panzer division never had contact with ancient hoplites we can not conclude who would win....
Or because the Soviet Union never came into contact with the Iroquois or Cherokee we have no idea who would win in a trans-civilizational war.
>>1285775
Zulus would curb-stomp the Aztecs. Iron working and firearms >>> wooden clubs, and each Zulu was a full-time warrior while the Aztecs relied on levies of farmers to fill out their ranks.
>>1285816
They did have bronze working, they just preferred obsidian.
>>1285775
I've got to give it to the Aztecs.
They had shields and armor to rival the zulus and the ferocity of the warriors is similar on both sides, however, the Aztecs had more versatility, light infantry, heavy infantry, by light I mean scounts and by heavy I mean fighters. They had organized combat units, they had archers, they had an officer corps.
Zulu didn't have bows or atlatls, Aztecs did. Every warrior could pepper the Zulu line before the battle even began.
>>1285850
I'd take a Martini Henry over a bow any day desu
>Zulu
>firearms
Why not give the aztecs some tanks and choppers?
>>1285868
Are you claiming the Zulus didn't have firearms?
>>1285868
Because the Zulus actually used firearms, you dingdong.
>>1285878
Are you claiming they produced them themselves?
>>1285850
Even if we discount Zulu firearms, the asagai spear they used was more than a match for any armor the Aztecs had, and that big hide shield would protect them just fine from Aztec missiles. A Zulu warrior trained from youth and ate a diet extremely rich in meat, famously an Impi of Zulus could /run/ 50 miles in a day, meanwhile Aztecs had a core of full-time warriors but the great majority of their armies was made up of farmers with little or no training, and a diet so poor in meat they may as well have been vegetarians. Add to this the superior tactics of the Zulu and it would be a slaughter.
>>1285887
Nobody claims that, but that's not the point. The Zulu army used firearms, so in a hypothetical matchup between the Zulus and the Aztecs, the Zulus would have firearms.
>>1285887
So when evaluating modern armies, we can only grant them the guns, tanks & planes they manufactured themselves?
Welp. Guess all nations that use the G36 aside of germany are fucked now.
>>1285887
Are you claiming this is relevant? Did you know the Mongols didn't produce the weapons they used, but imported them from China?
>>1285800
Right, because smallpox devastating over 80% of their population had no effect. Without disease, american natives would have rocked spanish socks.
Whoever coughs first wins.
>>1285911
The epidemics came AFTER the conquest, retardo.
>>1285850
>They had organized combat units
what the fuck would you call an impi then?
>>1285775
In an open battle of equal numbers the Zulus hands down. It ain't even a contest. They had supperior arms and at least comparable tactics, if not better ones.
Civilisation wise (if they somehow magically were neighboring countries) it is hard to call. The Aztecs had better fortification, a navy, better supply lines and FAR greater numbers, but the Zulus would still have access to FAR better weapon technology.
Hard to call really.
Zulus.
They were literally African Romans.
>>1285914
no. epidemics came the very fucking instant columbus landed, genius. People were already dying when Cortez walked in. By the time Europeans made it into continental north america, north of mexico, native populations had dwindled, in various areas, 30 to 70%.
>>1285917
>but the Zulus would still have access to FA
It doesn't mean much. The weapon in the soldiers hands plays a tiny role in the outcome of a battle compared to numbers, training, other equipment, morale and everything else.
If US soldiers still used M1 Garands they'd still win the battles they won in Iraq and Afghanistan.
A full scale war would include sieges where I think that the Aztecs would have the upper hand considering how much more advanced structures they had.
>>1285933
Okay? Are you suggesting the Zulus didn't know how to operate the firearms they got hold of?
>>1285900
>and a diet so poor in meat
Average beef muscle meat has 18% of protein, while some of the insects that the Aztecs ate had up to 70%.
>>1285800
you have a disease
>>1285938
It's not just the protein its the hormones and amino acids found abundantly in red meat and milk that gives the Zulus the advantage. And really just look at modern Mestizoes and modern Zulus, even without nutritional advantages the Zulus have a genetic advantage when it comes to fighting.
>>1285855
i'd take a dry martini over a gun any day 2bh
>>1285914
>The epidemics came AFTER the conquest
It came during the Conquest, right after La Noche Triste an epidemic started and even killed the Aztec emperor.
>>1285949
I don't care what sociologists argue. In that hostile south african environment, weak beings died and didn't procreate. It's obviously natural selection, just like how we bred them in western hemisphere colonies.
>>1285949
>even without nutritional advantages the Zulus have a genetic advantage when it comes to fighting.
citation needed
>>1285800
>aztecs
>BTFO by the white man
you mean the white man and his thousands of native allies
>>1285775
Aztecs.
The Zulus literally were only called conquerors because THEY STARTED FIGHTING IN MELEE IN AN AREA WHERE THE NORM WAS SPEAR CHUCKING.
Meanwhile the Aztecs were drenched in Melee.
Also Civilization > Tribe.
>>1285960
you have kindergarten-tier understanding of "natural selection" and "breeding". read a book, stupid nigger.
Aztecs.
They were literally Amerindian Romans.
>>1285969
k, white privilege guy.
>>1285937
No not at all. I'm an expert on the Zulu war. I'm saying that having an iron Iklwa isn't such an advantage over the Obsidian swords and spears of the Aztecs to alone result in victory. Those Obsidian swords though brittle were ridiculously sharp so they weren't terrible. While Zulu Iklwa's were quite poor metal.
>>1285962
The Olympics / world records in general. Compare niggers to latin americans with mostly or fully native blood, see if you can find even a single area the amerindians have an advantage in.
>>1285959
Well, through convergent evolution their fighting technique were extremely similar to Roman fighting techniques.
>>1285980
>I'm saying that having an iron Iklwa isn't such an advantage over the Obsidian swords and spears of the Aztecs to alone result in victory.
Okay? Good thing I never claimed the spear alone was the decisive factor. Are you ever going to manage to make a relevant post?
>>1285775
Aztec,
Even Aztec spearchuckery aces zulu shit.
>>1285949
The aminoacid quality of their insect diet is comparable to that of the animals in the Old World and is only lacking in methionine and tryptophan, which are covered by amaranth and tomato respectively.
Now, what hormones did the Aztec diet lack?
>>1285994
>implying
>>1286004
If you want to make the absurd claim that the Aztecs diet was as rich and nutritious as that of the Zulu then I don't know what to tell you.
>>1285841
>>1285855
Are we actually giving the Zulus firearms for this scenario? Really? All they had were a small number of guns they managed to procure from whatever European was willing to sell to them. I don't think we can count that as the Zulus did not know how to create or maintain such weapons on their own. This is Zulus vs Aztecs, not Zulus vs. Aztecs and each side can buy more advanced weapons from the white man to increase their chances. Might as well give the Aztecs some AK-47s while you're at it.
>>1286008
You could start with a counterargument.
>>1286005
>Iklwa.
>Throwing spear.
>>1286015
Cattle.
>>1286014
Zulus would win with or without them, assuming equal numbers of fighters. But the Aztecs could raise much bigger armies than the Zulu, so perhaps equal numbers isn't a fair metric.
>>1286030
I didn't say anything about throwing it. Pic related will take care of the javelins while the Zulu charge will do the rest.
>>1285838
Because there is no precedent of such a mismatched conflict in history aside from the Conquistadors - and even that wasn't totally a mismatch because 15th century muskets were shit and most of the Amerindians died of disease, not European technical superiority.
The Native Americans were underdeveloped pushovers until they bought and captured enough rifles to require the US to send first rate infantry to "pacify" them, and Little Big Horn still happened. Your Panzer division is going to be useless versus natives who know the land better than you and will silently sneak into your camps and collect magic fire sticks while Hans snoozes.
"Who would win" always implies that the allegedly inferior force won't adapt to your tech or doctrine. Such thought experiments are merely fantasies of who can genocide whom faster, but the realities of assymetric warfare proves that tech is not a good enough predictor for victory.
Afghanistan is proof enough that modern militaries will underestimate the force needed to pacify otherwise backwards insurgent country. So we send in light infantry with unarmored vehicles, cause its the only stuff that can survive the terrain and is sufficient against poorly armed insurgents, then get slaughtered once the insurgents get ahold of more modern weapons. No "backwards" nation will try to take a powerful enemy heads on if they can help it. Its an animal survival instinct that modern militaries think is a privileged skill.
>>1286044
>A cowhide shield.
Yeah, that shit never fended off anything worse than a hand-chucked spear.
Meanwhile Aztecs had Atlatls, slings, that massive staff sling, and bows and arrows.
>>1286060
You realise Africans had bows, slings and javelins, right? And that the Zulus stomped them anyway?
>>1286073
You realize the Zulus and their Bantu Speaking neighbors occupied a very isolated part of Africa right?
Their whole warfighting ensemble is the Iklwa, that cowhide shield, the longer spear, and the Iwissa.
Furthermore the Bantus in that part of the world have no such thing as a dedicated war-bow. They probably just had shit for small birds.
Also: no armor. Those Aztec guys in fursuits? They wear helmets made of Mahogany and quilted jackets that can soften club blows or ward of cuts. It was quite good that Spanish Colonial Soldiers wore such jackets themselves like their buff coats back home.
Look, we get it, the Zulus made you Anglos look bad. Once. There must be something special going for them, right? Hurr warrior spirit and all. Totally not the incompetence of a few British soldiers. Of course you'll root for those niggers. It's embarassing otherwise.
>>1286073
An atlatl isn't merely a simple javelin, bub.
>>1286052
>Hans snoozes.
germans don't sleep
>>1286038
And what hormones did the Aztec diet lack that could have been provided by cattle?
>>1286117
>germans don't sleep
Hitler did on D-Day
>>1285800
>Aztec weapons were not supposed to kill, their weapons were made of wood so they could knock out their enemies and take them prisoners.
Only the wooden side was used as a blunt weapon, while the obsidian edge was meant to kill and it was even able to decapitate an unarmored horse with a single stroke.
>>1285903
Germany's fucked though. They aren't allowed gas for their trucks and planes, or a food supply.
>>1285835
this is a well disguised shitpost
>>1287151
Finally! A reply!
Man, I'm bad at this.
>>1287142
Memes.
They are literally internet romans.
>>1285775
advanced, the meso americans
would win? zulus
>>1286060
>Atlatls
A lot of you seem to be under the impression that atlatls change spears from pointy sticks to Rocket-Propelled Death Incarnate, and that's just not true. They're a slight advantage that any decent spear thrower can outperform naturally.
Also, I hate the "shields were useless!" meme. If they were useless, why did they use them?
>>1286052
>Your Panzer division is going to be useless versus natives who know the land better than you and will silently sneak into your camps and collect magic fire sticks while Hans snoozes.
Yes, that's why militaries throughout history have time and time again understocked their troops. Because real life is a movie and operates on the Law of Inverse Ninja.
>>1287324
>A lot of you seem to be under the impression that atlatls change spears from pointy sticks to Rocket-Propelled Death Incarnate
It can make a pointy stick to pierce through chain mail so I guess it's close enough for the time.
There's a reason Mexico got cartels and niggers got gangs.
>>1287184
>summerfags trying to force memes
Wasn't there more numbers for Aztecs? Zulus was relatively tiny tribe.
>>1286108
Theytook them to Europe and fought dirty protestants wearing them
>Aztec fanbois believe every single warrior had an obsidian bladde
Romans.
They were literally Romans.
Africans had small pox, cholera, and bubonic plague. /thread
>>1285800
only the aztec and that was because of disease epidemics.
>>1285850
What about disease tho
>>1285825
>nosotros fue
ja
>>1285968
>civilization > tribe
this
>>1285775
The Zulus had metalwork and actually invented the wheel.
>>1285913
Nice meme
>>1288585
Right? Somehow i think that was like an officer's weapon or something.
>>1288963
>actually invented the wheel.
Shit meme senpai.
Mesoamerican civilizations invented wheels but didn't use them much because of unfavorable terrain and lack of pack animals.
>>1285900
>and a diet so poor in meat they may as well have been vegetarians
Beans and corn provided every nutritional need for the aztecs. so on the contrary aztec peasants would have been hearty
>>1289027
also, before you go
>corn
the aztecs had a method of fortifying corn by the following process
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixtamalization
which together with beans provided every amino acid needed by the body
>>1285944
>>1285963
>>1285911
Not a white male beating a minority in a task!
>negro pseudoscience being destroyed by facts
>lol didn't read WE WUZ WARRIORS N' SHIT
God I hate niggers
Aztecs are cooler and therefore get the win
>>1285775
If the War took place in Mexico the Aztecs would win. If the War took place in Zululand the Zulus would win. If the War took place in Antarctica it would be a tie.
>>1289071
>all that history gone forever
Fucking Spaniards
Aztecs. Their military strategy might not be as we'll known as the Zulus, but the Zulus battle strategy was literally attack wave one, flank wave 2, surround wave 3, every time.
Aztecs however had a highly developed system called Xochiyaoyotl which trained warriors constantly in real battles for ceremonial purposes. Also since neither of them use metal armor (Zulus might use hide or something but Nahua just wore pelts) I would actually say their obsidian weaponry is an advantage. Further, they have atlatls so if this is a pitched battle in an open field they get the first volley easy. In 1v1 combat they are less robust than the Zulu but their spears are longer which is all the really matters in effectively pre-bronze age battles.
Moot point, even the Sumerians would blow both of them way the fuck out. Any military force of comparable numbers from the middle East would beat these guys.
>>1289172
If the war took place un antartica both would die.
>>1289195
Be retarded spaniard try to build new city on top of city, it floods, after years of failed plans there's only one thing I can think of, drain the city.
>tfw you will never witness the greatness of an ancient city on top of a lake.
>Dutch had no problem building on water.
Why were Spaniards so retarded?
>>1289208
That is why it would be a tie. It would be known as the Perfect War.
Tribal spics vs tribal niggers
I love it
They should make a movie based on this. Would watch for kek.
>>1285800
>so they could knock out their enemies and take them prisoners.
That was only under the occasion of :"Flower" wars. In a real battle, no holds were barred.
>>1289195
Would it sincerely be better if the French or Italians went to South America instead?
>>1289286
Yes. Neither of them had spent the past 700 years reclaiming most of their land from Muslims, and didn't have nearly as xenophobic and paranoid attitudes towards natives. Most of the loss of native history is because it was burned along with the scribes during the Inquisition, which conveniently was started up due to the crown wanting Muslim and Jewish subversives out of the country, or converted at least. It was like a fire that spread to the powder keg of the Americas. Natives were *all* heretics in their eyes (See:Juan Gines de Sepulveda, torquemada, Diego de Landa) so it was just fine to kill them if they didn't convert.
Honestly France wasn't awful to its natives. They actively encouraged race-mixing to forge a national identity. A Nahua/France Mexico would be much more of a power, and probably hold on to most of North america worth holding.
>>1289300
Speaking from a Southeast Asian perspective:
>French colonies: hated France for their More Civilized Than Thou ways. Also indulged in scientific racism.
>Dutch Colonies: Indonesians hated their masters as the Dutch only saw $$$ in Indonesia.
>Philippines: Revolted because Spain wouldnt formally include the Philippines as a formal part of the Spanish Kingdom, with its colonial subjects becoming bonafide Spanish subjects. Which is what the "Nationalists" wanted.
Lel.
>>1289300
It's really sad because not even Spain itself, after its lust for gold and thoughtless conquering, has nothing to show for it in modern times. Maybe all of that gold went to the church or something.
It's pretty interesting to ponder on how different South America would be if a different European power settled there. France would be cool
>>1289320
France or small German principalities. If each Prince wanted to sail out and make deals with the natives (but not conquer because each individual ruler had too small of a military) I think things could have turned out better. Native cultures guided by European experience and technology, remaining primarily ethnically native but with race mixing and distinct hybrid cultures.
That would have been almost as good as the reality where the Norse conquer the natives in the 1100's and we get epic Viking/Indian culture and stuff. Harry turtledove has a story on that Iirc.
![1393220116680[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/YLy6YKA.jpg "1393220116680[1].jpg")
Aztecs for sure
also they had wizards
>>1287117
This is almost a "Folded over a gorillian times" tier meme.
>>1287477
>People still believe the myth of summer fags.
Come on mate, moot already told us it's an autistic myth that has no merit.
>>1285922
get fucked, we wuz
>>1289676
>unarmored horse
>>1289676
According to an account by Bernal DÃaz del Castillo, one of Hernán Cortés’s conquistadors:
>Pedro de Morón was a very good horseman, and as he charged with three other horsemen into the ranks of the enemy the Indians seized hold of his lance and he was not able to drag it away, and others gave him cuts with their broadswords, and wounded him badly, and then they slashed at the mare, and cut her head off at the neck so that it hung by the skin, and she fell dead.
Another account by Francisco de Aguilar read:
>They used ... cudgels and swords and a great many bows and arrows ... One Indian at a single stroke cut open the whole neck of Cristóbal de Olid’s horse, killing the horse. The Indian on the other side slashed at the second horseman and the blow cut through the horse’s pastern, whereupon this horse also fell dead.
Another account by a companion of Cortés known as The Anonymous Conqueror:
>The edges are grooved, and in the grooves they insert stone knives, that cut like a Toledo blade. I saw one day an Indian fighting with a mounted man, and the Indian gave the horse of his antagonist such a blow in the breast that he opened it to the entrails, and it fell dead on the spot. And the same day I saw another Indian give another horse a blow in the neck, that stretched it dead at his feet.
zulus because iron
hmmm lets see what the zulus have
>guns
>germs
>steel
oh shit
>>1289066
you have a very selective vision, and an obvious bias lel.
>>1285968
This
People here think that logistics and organization play no role in warfare, so, who did have the best organization and logistics, aztecs or zulus?
>>1289071
this desu
>>1290775
Zulus were pretty /fa/ desu
>>1285775
Probably Aztecs, but I assume Zulu iron and military cohesion would trump an Aztec warrior 1-on-1
>>1289990
>and then they slashed at the mare, and cut her head off at the neck so that it hung by the skin
Doesn't say one slash cut it off
>One Indian at a single stroke cut open the whole neck
>cut open
>not cut off
I can do that one with a kitchen knife
>saw another Indian give another horse a blow in the neck, that stretched it dead at his feet
Again it doesn't say that one stroke cut off the head
If you slash a horse's neck with any large sharp object it will kill it, that doesn't mean it 'cuts the head off in one stroke'
None of these indicate that these are particularly impressive weapons
>>1291223
>cut open the whole neck
>the whole neck
>I can do that with a kitchen knife
>>1287117
dont the obsidian shards pop out and break easily? Once you slash through two people all you have left is a paddle, right?
>>1291386
Diaz del Castillo says that they had pikes with obsidian shards and they didn't break after hitting the steel shields.
>>1291386
Part of the point of the swords. If they left little flakes in they could cut you more of you moved, so they were more deadly.
>>1285775
Probably the Aztecs. They had a highly advance culture for a long time. The Zulu were a group of people united around a certain ruler that were just started to be organized with him
>>1291386
They broke easily but it was a problem after a long time. Nothing about hiting a couple of times and then it's over.
>>1289666
I never understood warrior priests, since I know nothing of the matter. Are they just priests but given training? Warriors educated in religion? Or is it just a rank?
How fucking stupid were the natives that all they could come up with in thousands of years was a wooden paddle with obsidian on the sides? That's like stone-age tier.
>>1292406
stupid enough to develop bronze weapons while being isolated from the rest of the world
>>1292406
>he says as they built cities on lakes that rivaled even the largest cities in the old world
Tenochtitlan was in the top 5 largest cities in the world period at the time
>>1292727
>And? Ants have billions living in their colonies too.
Yes but anthills aren't architectural and engineering marvels.
>>1292730
>>1292727
whoops forgot my image
>>1292734
That's some we wuz kangz shit right there.
And anthills actually are engineering marvels.
>>1292727
8/10 made me reply two times
![GORDON_HIGHLANDERS[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/pT0Nd8y.jpg "GORDON_HIGHLANDERS[1].jpg")
>>1285775
the aztecs would win any war... just look at their fucking outfits, they've put a lot of effort in that: killing birds with clubs to get their feathers and killing wild beasts to make cool looking shields... do you think they would go through all of that just to lose a battle in the end?
>pic very related: panache does win wars
>>1292739
>That's some we wuz kangz shit right there.
Except there are multiple first hand accounts and literal ruins you can see in mexico city backing up that it existed.This is from Bernal DÃaz del Castillo's "True History of the Conquest of the New Spain", from various chapters
>"The next morning we reached the broad high road of Iztapalapan, whence we for the first time beheld the numbers of towns and villages built in the lake, and the still greater number of large townships on the mainland, with the level causeway which ran in a straight line into Mexico."
>"Our astonishment was indeed raised to the highest pitch, and we could not help remarking to each other, that all these buildings resembled the fairy castles we read of in Amadis de Gaul; so high, majestic, and splendid did the temples, towers, and houses of the town, all built of massive stone and lime, rise up out of the midst of the lake. Indeed, many of our men asked if what they saw was a mere dream. And the reader must not feel surprised at the manner in which I have expressed myself, for it is impossible to speak coolly of things which we had never seen nor heard of, nor even could have dreamt of, beforehand."
>"When we approached near to Iztapalapan, two other caziques came out in great pomp to receive us: one was the prince of Cuitlahuac, and the other of Cojohuacan; both were near relatives of Motecusuma. We now entered the town of Iztapalapan, where we were indeed quartered in palaces, of large dimensions, surrounded by spacious courts, and built of hewn stone, cedar and other sweet-scented wood. All the apartments were hung round with cotton cloths."
1/4
>And anthills actually are engineering marvels.
Not comparable to aquaducts, causeways, gardens, and temples.
>>1285855
i never fully understand why after the napoleonic era
and during uk's colonial adventures all over the globe they still used breech-loading single shot rifles when they had revolvers and at a later point lever action rifles...
and even if revolvers lacked the precision needed for medium range engagements, they had 6 shots at their target and could reload with another 6 in less than 10 seconds, so what was really the point to adopt such a slow weaponry instead of going for fast reloading guns?
who made this decisions and why?
>>1292754
>>1292739
>"After we had seen all this, we paid a visit to the gardens adjoining these palaces, which were really astonishing, and I could not gratify my desire too much by walking about in them and contemplating the numbers of trees which spread around the most delicious odours; the rose bushes, the different flower beds, and the fruit trees which stood along the paths. There was likewise a basin of sweet water, which was connected with the lake by means of a small canal. It was constructed of stone of various colours, and decorated with numerous figures, and was wide enough to hold their largest canoes."
>"In this basin various kinds of water-fowls were swimming up and down, and everything was so charming and beautiful that we could find no words to express our astonishment. Indeed I do not believe a country was ever discovered which was equal in splendour to this; for Peru was not known at that time. But, at the present moment, there is not a vestige of all this remaining, and not a stone of this beautiful town is now standing."
>"(About Tlatelolco) After we had sufficiently gazed upon this magnificent picture, we again turned our eyes toward the great market, and beheld the vast numbers of buyers and sellers who thronged there. The bustle and noise occasioned by this multitude of human beings was so great that it could be heard at a distance of more than four miles. Some of our men, who had been at Constantinople and Rome, and travelled through the whole of Italy, said that they never had seen a market-place of such large dimensions, or which was so well regulated, or so crowded with people as this one at Mexico."
Pic related is from a different city (actually not built by the Aztecs, but a much older culture), but it's in better condition then tenochititlan's ruins are, and gives you an idea of what tenochititlan could look like when tenochititlan was built by a much earlier and less advanced culture then the aztec's themselves
>>1292791
Switching sources now to cortes's letters
>"(About Montezuma II) He possessed out of the city as well as within, numerous villas, each of which had its peculiar sources of amusement, and all were constructed in the best possible manner for the use of a great prince and lord. Within the city his palaces were so wonderful that it is hardly possible to describe their beauty and extent ; I can only say that in Spain there is nothing equal to them."
>"The city of Iztapalapa contains twelve or fifteen thousand houses; it is situated on the shore of a large salt lake, one-half of it being built upon the water, and one half on terra firma. The governor or chief of the city has several new houses, which, although they are not yet finished, are equal to the better class of houses in Spain –being large and well constructed, in the stone work, the carpentry, the floors, and the various appendages necessary to render a house complete, excepting the reliefs and other rich work usual in Spanish houses. There are also many upper and lower rooms–cool gardens, abounding in trees and odoriferous flowers; also pools of fresh water, well constructed, with stairs leading to the bottom."
>"There is also a very extensive kitchen garden attached to the house, and over it a belvidere with beautiful corridors and halls; and within the garden a large square pond of fresh water, having its walls formed of handsome hewn stone; and adjacent to it there is a promenade, consisting of a tiled pavement so broad that four persons can walk on it abreast, and four hundred paces square, or sixteen hundred paces round; enclosed on one side towards the wall of the garden by canes, intermingled with vergas, and on the other side by shrubs and sweet-scented plants. The pond contains a great variety of fish and water-fowl, as wild ducks, teal, and others so numerous that they often cover the surface of the water."
>>1292819
>"On their route they passed through three provinces, that, according to the report of the Spaniards, contained very fine land, many villages and cities, with much scattered population, and buildings equal to any in Spain. They mentioned particularly a house and castle, the latter larger, of greater strength, and better built than the castle of Burgos ; and the people of one of these provinces, called Tamazulapa, were better clothed than those of any other we had seen, as it justly appeared to them."
and done
>>1285911
That figure is inflated. Cortes still fought pitched battles, while being hugely outnumbered, and still BTFO them
>>1285944
What? It's true. are you upset over this?
>>1292871
>mudhutters
They didn't have beasts of burden or iron working, both of which are essential developments, gotten usually through trade rather than innovation. They weren't part of the continental land mass where everyone got horses and metal tools before the Common Era.
But whatever, feel better for the accomplishments you inherited and they didn't.
I hope you get reincarnated as a "mudhutter."
>>1292871
>Congrats the mudhutters built a city. They were only a few thousand years behind the rest of the world.
They built a city that was larger and more impressive then anything in Europe at the time, without the substantial use of metal tools. You have the conquistadors explicitly saying it was more magificnet then anything they had seen or heard of back in spain. Learn to read or stop being delusional.
Go back to /pol/
if you wanna talk about being behind, how come it took europe over a thousand years of metalworking and warring to build cities as impressive as the aztecs when the aztecs did it with much less?
>>1292871
Don't post anymore.
>>1292871
Also, they did tons of terraforming before building that stuff, something that folks who lived on plains or by rivers didn't have to deal with
>>1285825
>NOSOTROS FUE REYES Y MIERDA
>>1292406
Stupid enough to use stone flakes sharper than modern surgical scalpels, and stupid enough not to need metal weapons because none of their enemies had armor.
>>1292993
didn't the Aztecs have have a wet leather armor or something like that?
>>1292993
>muh folded 1000x stone
And the fact that they didn't invent armor is not a badge of honor. It shows how stupid they were.
>>1293000
They had cotton jackets that they would soak in mineral rich water so the inside of it would crystallize to make it tougher, yes.
Other then that they had various armor, clothing, and shields made of cotton, leather, animal skins, wood, and so on.
>>1293002
Obsidian is genuinely sharper than steel. that's not a meme.
They did have armor, but I'm not extremely well read on mesoamerican war so perhaps the peasants couldn't afford much.
>>1293002
There wasn't really a lot of coal nor iron laying around in Mexico. Not where they could get to it.
>>1293034
Gee I don't know, trade?
It's not like the natives in modern day USA used what they had available.
>>1292905
Just like the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Byzantines did?
>>1293040
So wait a second, trade with hunter-gatherers? Even the tribal societies of the Americas all used stone tools because they didn't have to population to support a society that could support division of labor, let alone mining. There was nobody to trade with. Its a real shame Mesoamerica has no other societies near it, otherwise it would have been on the rest of the world's level. But the fact that they rose from hunter-gatherer to a state society in complete technological, economic, and cultural isolation is what fascinates me the most.
>>1289676
Obsidian is the sharpest material known to man. It fractures to a monomolecular edge. However memey that may sound, it's true.
However. it's more brittle than glass.
>>1293240
>However. it's more brittle than glass.
This isn't accurate. Obisidan is a type of glass, and how brittle it's going to be, as with all glass, will depend on how exactly it cooled and it's exact composition and the shape of the particular piece.
If you look on youtube, there's a guy who made a highly decorative inaccurate aztec macuahuitl and chopped a chicken in half with it, as well as heavily cracking the table it was sitting on below it, and all of the osidian razors on the macuahuiitl weren't damaged at all.
So, if some random dude can make them being able to withstand that much force without damage I would imagine that a one made for a prestigious aztec warrior would also be sturdy enough to not have all the bosidian blades on it just shattered after one use and it would last at least a few battles.
>>1293012
>Source: BYU
>>1291223
I'm not even going to bother
holy shit you are this retarded at literary comprehension
>>1293342
>ignoring the 3 fucking microscopic images of obisdian razors
anyways, here
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1273673/
>>1285949
Modern Mestizoes are a lot smaller than natives back in the day. The Spanish used to marvel at the larger Aztecs, being 5'11 or 6'1 while the spaniards were like 5'6
>>1285775
>cities with irrigation vs mudhut "civilisation"
Gee I don't know which one was more advanced
>Mfw maize is the only reason zululand had populations large enough to subjugate the other tribes which didn't have soil that could grow maize
>mfw without the mesoamericans the Zulus would have been even poorer and more pathetic
>>1293049
There were American tribes using metal weapons, anon.
>>1292762
There was always an ammo shortage and the higher ups were afraid of the soldiers burning through the ammo to fast
>>1285838
>right, because a German Panzer division never had contact with ancient hoplites we can not conclude who would win....
The German Panzers would just break down all the time. Hoplites would just have to wait for Germans to leave their deathtraps
>>1293476
Pre contact? I don't think so.
>>1293535
The Moche, Nazca and later the Incans when they conquered they regions had them, they used copper, bronze and a gold and copper aleation for weapons and decorations. The Aztecs had a limited supply of copper weapons too, and the aleation of copper and gold was used even be the Tainos.
>>1289202
This
Also something being ignored in this thread is the medicinal capabilities of either belligerent. Zulus had no empirical science whatsoever, while the Spanish favoured Aztec doctors over their own for their better remedies
>>1293549
Which brings us back to the fact that Aztecs had copper/bronze weapons, but there was simply no advantage to using them over obsidian. Any warrior could make an obsidian spearhead. It takes tons of effort and time and material to make a bronze one though. And it will never be as sharp or as nice-looking. Durability when it's only job is to piece a cotton shirt and human flesh is negligible.
>>1285911
Fuck you and your Jared Diamond drivel. Just because you read Guns, Germs, and Steel does not make you an expert at history you cuckbird.
http://www.aztec-history.com/ancient-aztec-weapon.html
>>1292905
The same way America is doing
>>1285922
WE
WUZ
NIGGER
RUMANS
AN
SHIET
>>1293644
Do you have a proper refutation to his claim?
>>1285775
The Aztecs have a serious disadvantage. They don't fight to kill.
WE
>>1295183
stop this meme
>>1295183
Flower wars =/= actual wars
Aztecs could fight to kill and did when they needed to.
>>1295183
See: Cholula
>>1287117
>it was even able to decapitate an unarmored horse with a single stroke.
this is a serious discussion, stop baiting
>>1296144
It could definitely kill a horse with one stroke. That much is reasonable. Keep in mind we're dealing with translations here, from a language that doesn't have a lot of synonyms.
>>1285775
zulus, unquestionably. shaka invented the impi style of warfare because he thought the ceremonial show-warfare of the local nguni tribaes was shit. he was basically "well the point of warfare is to kill people and take their shit - let's just do that rather than standing around having rap battles and shit".
since the aztecs are stuck in the ceremonial wafare mindset, shaka's impics would pwn then aztecs, at first. obviously, the aztecs would adapt, but would they adapt in time?
and how are they fighting - i.e. what is the situiation on the ground? does the mzimkulu suddenly flow into lake tenochtitlan?
anyhoo, if the aztecs don't adapt in time, they will have a new ruling class of zulus who embrace the religion of the aztecs as one which synergises well with the zulu ethos of fucking shit up. a land of black overlords with an army of redskinned jaguar and leopard impi with assegais and now skirmishers with atlatls, overrunning all of mesoamerica. welcome to to the nightmare kingdom of kwaNahuatl.
>>1285968
>Also Civilization > Tribe
This pretty much checkmates this thread. Relatively endless supplies, logistics, stratification, strong and diverse leadership, tactics, and centuries of practice employing all of the above in constant warfare.
Of course, I'm discounting firearms. I'm talking these groups in their native state, with native resources and technologies.
>>1292762
cheaper to produce
cheaper to maintain
more reliable
troops would sell their ammo for booze, so you can't give them too much
Aztec had more advanced society, but the Zulus could beat them in wars easily.
>>1285775
Zulus were utter shit tier
Only the Brits could lose a battle against them
Nice try, deadliest warrior reboot staff
>>1285775
What were their populations at their heights? Which one would be invading the other?
>>1297646
The entirety of the Zulu empire at its height (includi g europeans) didn't have as many people as Tenochtitlan and Cholula alone.
>>1285835
I concur.
I thought the Aztecs and its allies numbered in the tens of millions.
>>1292871
>mudhutters
kek. tenochtitlan was three times the size of the largest city in western europe at the time. the only city in all of europe at the time that rivaled tenochtitlan was constantinople.
>>1296144
the horse decapitation was reported by the spaniards themselves. probably an exaggeration, but still.
>>1297755
>the horse decapitation was reported by the spaniards themselves. probably an exaggeration, but still.
I could imagine it happened once when all the variables for it lined up just right.
What I find more unbelievable is that an aztec spear (don't recall if meant like an atlatl dart or a tepoztopilli) pierced a conquistadors breastplate and only avoided killing a guy via his underpadding, which was also reported I think by Bernal DÃaz del Castillo
>>1297755
>kek. tenochtitlan was three times the size of the largest city in western europe at the time. the only city in all of europe at the time that rivaled tenochtitlan was constantinople.
I've heard this before also but I don't have a source on it, do you have one?
>>1297711
Best way to find population is to look at tax revords, since all their interrment sites are literally underneath Mexico citu
>>1297798
>Best way to find population is to look at tax revords
And where would I find those? Do one of the codices have them?
What did the average Aztec solider even use since obsidian clubs and bronze weren't wide spread
>>1296199
This would never happen but it sounds awesome
>>1292390
I *THINK* they're there for moral support. Kinda like a way that show that "gods are with you" or something
Don't forget aztecs had psychological warfare. They had this whistle thingy that sounded like a woman being raped by a chainsaw. Imagine the niggers facing that shit. Aztecs win errytime.
Depends on biome, Aztecs mastered the art of traversing through dense jungle/marsh with lightweight weapons. In an open field (think trench warfare's no mans land), Zulus would prob win.
>>1292390
Depends on the society. Remember, in a lot of societies, Priests own land.
If you're a society where landowner = warrior, that means any significant priest = warrior.
Actual religious fervor is optional.
>>1299759
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx7KzuXz4AM
Zulu know all about that shit.
>>1289066
T. Buttmad /pol/fag
>>1301852
> In an open field (think trench warfare's no mans land), Zulus would prob win.
In open terrain, Zulus probably win without ever engaging in a battle.
>>1292871
>/pol/fag gets BTFO
>still posts
Just kill yourself lad.
>>1292905
Just like every other civilisation.
Back to /pol/.
Never post here again, degenerate.
>>1285968
Mongols were just a tribe going against chinese civilization. Tribes can fuck people up senpai.
>>1290080
That's tough, because the logistics and organization was each suited for their needs. I know more about the Zulu organization, which was centered around producing physically adept, highly disciplined professional soldiers.
That dude is saying that they conquered because they specialized in melee while everyone else chucks spears, but that's like saying that the Germans were only good because they specialized in mobile warfare while everyone else relied on chucking artillery shells.
The Zulu produced a core of soldiers that was willing to take losses to achieve their goals, skilled in combat, and able to march, run practically, all day.
This gave them huge advantages not just in direct combat, but in mobility and operations. It also helped them in establishing an efficient set of garrisons.
>>1287455
this
>>1288991
It was for the "heavy infantry" think of Mexican berzerkers drunk on jaguar blood or something, most of the Aztec infantry used wooden clubs, atlatls, obsidian axes and spears
>>1289044
method that we use to this day here in Mexico, you could live on Tortillas, chile and beans with no problem
>>1289285
one of my uncles who is an anthopologist always called Aztec the "Zetas" of their time because they were brutal motherfuckers when it came to fighting.
And yes while they were acostumed to taking prisoners in wars other than the Flower wars they went all out and took prisioners only if they saw someone alive after the carnage
>>1286140
Austrian.
Aztecs
power in numbers
>>1285963
This is absolutely true but Cortez and his men were the vanguard, tip of the spear, in their massive alliance of native city-states
They also had cavalry, guns, artillery, steel swords, and armour. I'm not saying Cortes was a good guy or did the right thing but him and his men were good fighters
>>1285976
>white privilege
Dude, not him, but please don't bring that shit here.
>>1289320
Western Europe wouldn't have skyrocketed to the top of global supremacy though
Spain colonised the Americas so they could get that delicious silver deposits. They forced the natives in rigorous and generally terrible "slave" labour. At the time, China had a near monopoly on silver and Spain wanted to counter that
Also, people don't ever mention this, but it is widely acknowledged in academic circles that Spain and Portugal began their expeditions with the intent on reaching the far side of India based on rumours that there existed a massive Christian kingdom waiting for them on the other side. The idea was that they would enlist the aide of this massive kingdom and start a global war against Islam. 1492, was literally the same year that Spain forcibly expelled all the Muslims from their kingdoms, was when Colombus set sail.
t. History grad student
>>1302223
Why do you think so many natives allied with Cortes? Aztecs were despotic, militaristic fanatics. Unfortunately, so were the Spanish
>>1301907
Bitch please that's nothing compared to 100 of these https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI
>>1304227
Fucking mobile. Meant to reply to the dude who posted a video of a zulu movie or something
>>1289215
Aztecs would die later.
>>1285825
I don't care for your "NO FUN ALLOWED" view of history. You can't say you've never wondered what would happen when two badass warriors of different civilizations fought.
>>1302132
They weren't a tribe. They were several tribes United into one. Also most of their men knew how to fight and all of them could ride since they were children.
