How does it feel knowing that the Anyone Can Code™ movement will lead to the current status quo of male nerds being pushed out of their overpaid skilled labor positions in favor of unskilled plebs, day laborers and soccer moms who learned just enough to operate a drag and drop interface, all making webapps using big cushy frameworks?
You won't even need math anymore, there's always a Javascript library to cover all your use cases.
>>52106409
pretty good. the complex math-oriented stuff i do in software can't be done by just any ol dev-guy, certainly not by any poo or woman in general. if you're prognostication proves true, then demand for my skills will only grow larger and more valuable.
I'm not too worried.
Here's a sample of some of the requests I got at work:
1: We need to connect a remote touchscreen to the primary touchscreen via USB so that the app's UI automatically appears on the remote touchscreen when plugged in. How do we configure embedded Linux to do this? (Answer: use X-forwarding over IP, and install the IP-over-USB drivers on both touchscreens. Then write scripts that configure the network and launch the app with the correct DISPLAY set.)
2: We need field-service technicians to be able to install software updates in the field using a USB flash drive. How do we implement this in embedded Linux? (Answer: add a rule to /etc/udev/rules.d to auto-launch an installer app upon plugging in the flash drive, and have the app launch a touchscreen GUI to guide the user through the installation steps.)
I got that kind of thing all the time: a short, open-ended question about "how would we do X?" and then I had to do all the research to come up with a workable solution that minimizes development time, production time, field-service time, etc. -- and then I had to code it all and release new system SDcard images to production.
I'd like to see some unskilled pleb try doing that job.
>>52106409
>there's always a Javascript library to cover all your use cases
And people wonder why websites are getting slower and slower serving megabytes of scripts with kilobytes of actual useful content.
But in regards to the whole "anyone can code" argument, I have to ask, has anything truly groundbreaking come from someone who has gone through a coding bootcamp?
>>52106409
ANyone can code though.
Try deployment and system administration.
>>52106409
Plebs program spreadsheets all the time and it only lead to a higher demand for proper programmers.
Adobe already perfected the art of drag and drop web design.
Do you see web designers out on the street begging for change?
Taking a couple years of Spanish in high school doesn't lead to people going on to write masterful literature in a foreign tongue, and taking a couple years of some programming language won't get you ready for the job market either. Its only a jumping off point, and looking at the quality of public schools its not a good one.
>>52106409
Haha, its like being able to type is what allows you to program and that making a fancy gui changes anything.
>>52106935
You're a god m8.
>>52106409
It feels very good. I hope the male nerds find their designated jobs as cleaning ladies a.s.a.p.
>>52107173
Shakespeare you are not.
>Oh wait, he was a man...
>>52106994
>ANyone can code though
. . .
Yea all the anecdotes you read on /g/ told you so right?
>>52107283
Yeah because its really fucking hard to code.echo "Hello world"
>>52107248
"He" identified as a human.
>>52107329
So, that represents the entire codebase required by the newest Confoobulator production widget, then?
> Huh, neat.
>>52107419
I said anyone can code, that's it Paco.
>>52106409
>the Anyone Can Code™ movement will lead to the current status quo of male nerds being pushed out of their overpaid skilled labor positions
No it won't. Programming is hard: once you get past for loops, function calling, and HTML, soccer moms, poo in loos, and mexican onion pickers are helpless.
Software engineering is a high-aptitude field. What that means is that most people CANNOT do it, and those who can find it easy. Since software people find software to be easy, they assume that EVERYONE finds it easy, and they push for things like coding bootcamps and self learning courses, thinking they can train everyone to be a programmer. They can't.
For a similar case, look at mathematics. Most people can't do math. They struggle to learn arithmetic, are overwhelmed by basic algebra and geometry, and if they are even exposed to calculus, trigonometry, or linear algebra they fail so completely they may as well have never attempted. They can't even comprehend higher math. Meanwhile, mathematicians sleep through math class in school, breeze through math courses in undergrad with minimal effort, and love higher math. They then look at non-mathematicians, and can't understand why they find math so hard. It's not that with mathematical aptitude are doing something the others aren't; it's that they ARE something that the others aren't.
The same is true for software. Beyond by-the-numbers crap like web design (where jobs are not in high demand and salaries are low), software engineering is easy, intuitive, and quickly learned *by those with aptitude*. It's impossible otherwise. This is why from a graduating class of 50 students, maybe 20 will find jobs in the field, and maybe 10 will still have a job after two years.
>>52107491
Drag and drop and paint-by-numbers frameworks can enable normies to create software, but only within the constraints set by the creators of the framework: if you want to do something actually original, you'll actually have to go to a real engineer.
Back in the early 2000s there was an industry-wide panic that Indians were going to take all the software jobs, and a lot of companies hopped on the non-loo pooing bandwagon and outsourced their software to Shitistan. Over a decade later, the industry here in America and Europe is still going strong, and overseas outsourcing is less common than it was back then. Why? Because software development is HARD, and a pack of wild curries can't do it.
Further, modern software development is not something that can be done by drafting a document, handing it to a room full of nerds, and coming back to pick it up in 18 months. That's something the industry learned in the late 90s: try, and what gets produced is not what was intended. Requirements change. Understanding of requirements change. The environment that produced those requirements changes. All that change needs to be dealt with, and that's not possible if your engineers are ten time zones and a language barrier away.
Fear of normies trying to learn code is really fear of inadequecy: if you're afraid of Stacie, Juan, and Suraj learning how to code, what you're really afraid of is that you're no better than they are. You're afraid that you don't actually have any aptitude for software engineering, and the dead simple jobs that can be done with a drag and drop are the only jobs you qualify for. If that's the case, either learn more or leave the field.
>>52106409
who gives a shit. In a few years some basic AI can probably do all the work a standard codemonkey does (wuts dat? lets ask stackoverflow!)
So scary.
>>52107491
>Since software people find software to be easy, they assume that EVERYONE finds it easy, and they push for things like coding bootcamps and self learning courses, thinking they can train everyone to be a programmer. They can't.
That is exactly what's going on, and nobody seems to know it except a rare few.
>>52107696
>Fear of normies trying to learn code is really fear of inadequecy: if you're afraid of Stacie, Juan, and Suraj learning how to code, what you're really afraid of is that you're no better than they are.
Quoted for absolute truth.
>>52106409
Visual programming is dumb as shit but that way of styling code from left to right looks cool
Feels really good OP. I'm tired of doing other peoples jobs. This job should be $15/hr. Leaves more money for those of us who can't be replaced (yet).
Saying "anyone can code" is like saying "anyone can work on cars"
>but muh libraries
Just because you go to Sears & pick up a socket set doesn't mean you can fix your car.
>>52107491
>it's that they ARE something that the others aren't.
This.
>>52108664
>"anyone can work on cars"
anyone could with proper training
>>52106935
What kinda job is that? Sounds pretty cool
Having a solid base of algorithmic knowledge and technique is one characteristic that separates the truly skilled programmers from the novices. With modern com- puting technology, you can accomplish some tasks without knowing much about algorithms, but with a good background in algorithms, you can do much, much more.
>>52107696
>if you want to do something actually original, you'll actually have to go to a real engineer.
This. And the demand for original isn't decreasing (except in webshit, et al) it's increasing.
Want to try engineering a good AI? How about a humanoid robot? What about an embedded system for any type of vehicular control (giant ocean ships to spaceships)...good luck trying to get some pleb tier paint-by-noombers purple-hair SJW to handle it.
Think Space-X allows incompetents to create the flight software for the Falcon 9 re-entry code? Heh, they may trot a few in front of the camera for "Muh Inclusive PR", but they sure as shit don't let them anywhere near the real codebase ehh.
>>52106409
It will raise the bar. I welcome the fact that people will likely realize that webdesign and microcontroller programming will become accessible to normies but the fact remains that the big breakthroughs will still be by leading programmers, mathematicians, cryptographers and electrical/computer engineers. I'll simply laugh at retardo node.js faggots and swift webapp designers when they realize their CS minor was fucking worthless. The only risk is that more normies will increase SJW action in the tech industry. I hope that we will make the breakthrough of autism repulsion fields so we can stop such a thing from pervading throughout the industry.
>>52106409
Anybody can code but that doesn't mean anybody can code under the rigor of modern engineering practices.
>>52106409
>male nerds
you jelly OP?
>don't go away mad
>just. go away.
>>52107696
>paint-by-numbers
Stop using this term.
Engineers will slice their work into sections so they work like "painting by numbers"
>>52110955
>chkd
Lolno. If you're too dense to take the point I'll spell it out for you friend:
P[aint] urge all white men,
B[y] ecause muh feefees
N[umbers]eed a place to express themselves w/o being called out.
Well, I'll be damned if anyone can maintain the servers of our company, besides me. I'm one of those assholes who made the code illegible to anyone but me.
>>52111111
>truth lol
magnificent sextets anon.
>>52111122
Holy shit, seems like God (if he exists) approves of my dominance over the future of the company. Thank you BasedGod.
>>52111268
Hey, maybe you'll at least somehow keep it from becoming a SJW cesspool anon.
>>52111111
IT'S HAPPENINNNNG
>>52106409
>will lead to the current status quo of male nerds being pushed out of their overpaid skilled labor positions
It won't happen. We teach math and foreign languages to everybody who goes to school but I can't hire math tutors or professional translators for a dime a dozen. What makes you think that professional programmers will see a drop of anything beyond the most basic of programming tasks?
>>52111111
Who says I need to read your code to find out what it does? protip: systems analysis requires no reading of source code
>>52107696
>>52107491
bravo
>tell the people who learn these things to sit down and write in a proper editor with a compiler and write code that is memory efficient and not shit
>they imediately choke up because they're so used to dragging and dropping functions
lol
>>52111501
If he's any good anon, good luck sorting out the Gordian Knot he's created w/o using source ehh.
>>52111501
What if they want to upgrade their hardware, change the way some things are set up, or the biggest issue they could face, what if they want to replace me with someone who is willing to work for a lot less money, and they want to test if he can read through the code and possibly do some minor modifications to see if he is as good as me? But the dude can't even get through the first 20 lines without asking if he can contact me to explain him how I've set it all up. And if he contacts me, I'll make sure mister Van Hoorn (the ceo/bossman) finds out the new guy they hired doesn't know shit, and that I'll only come back if they pay me an extra 10% per month, because I'm very disappointed in them.
>>52111678
If the system actually works, I can model any system in an Input Process Output model. Formal systems analysis even works for mutually recursive functions! There are two reasons why I'd read the source code: for the purpose of documenting the existing system and for the purpose of porting the old system to the new system. At this point of systems development, I already have full set of higher level documentation to guide me and reading the code is a matter of filling in the details.
>>52111846
K I get it. As I said, gud luck.
>>52111645
This sounds reasonable now, but in 20 years you will look like an autist who thinks everything needs to be written in hand-assembled ASM or else they are literally using a babby's language
>>52111766
A system that is not properly documented is a system that's doomed to failure. Whenever I work, I always work with the idea of the "bus factor". Before I take on any job, I want to see how serious my employer is about the bus factor.
>>52111867
Nah, my views will likely change as life changes. Thing is, development as we know it right now, it's objectively superior in every aspect to type it out in an editor like a normal fucking person. When it is proven that this form of GUI 'programming' is superior, then sure, that's cool. But until then I'll keep laughing at it, and I doubt "then" will even happen unless we see a fundamental change in the way programming happens in the near future.
then whos going to code or update their drag and drop software?
>>52111898
B-but it's not in anon's best interest (as he plainly indicated) to cater to you're 'best practices' anon.
If he gets hit by a bus, meh.
>>52111933
Exactly.
>>52111933
Purple-hairs will be perfectly competent to do so anon. Just ask they're leadership about it.
>>52111898
I, on the other hand, try to make sure I'm the only one who knows how everything works. I like being irreplaceable.
>>52111992
I see your employers enjoy having a bus factor of 1. This is equally intelligent as operating without a data backup plan.
>>52112051
They don't really care, they leave the 'complicated server stuff' to me. They're good as long as they can find what they want on the servers on any computer in the company.
>>52106409
What software is that OP?
>>52112051
I bet you're a barrel of laughs to work with too, anon.
>>52107696
>Fear of normies trying to learn code is really fear of inadequecy: if you're afraid of Stacie, Juan, and Suraj learning how to code, what you're really afraid of is that you're no better than they are. You're afraid that you don't actually have any aptitude for software engineering, and the dead simple jobs that can be done with a drag and drop are the only jobs you qualify for. If that's the case, either learn more or leave the field.
I'm not scared of them long term. I know I can code a hell of a lot better than they can. But every time the MBAs get together and think they've discovered a new way to get cheap programmers, it shits up the workplace for a couple of years as they try to force these idiots into the company. Almost all of them have negative productivity, costing more time to undo their mistakes and keep them away from anything important than what little benefit that comes from the few things they can cut and paste correctly.
I've been through three cycles of this nonsense, I'd rather not go through it a fourth time though I suspect I'm going to end up going through it a fifth, sixth, and seventh time. It's just part of the business process now. The part that's frightening more than annoying is that this wave comes wrapped in SJW nonsense. When it was Rajee from Bangalore screwing everything up, we could tell him to sit in the corner, not touch anything, and wait for his contract to run out. With this current crop there's always a danger of a trip to HR or the courtroom if they get their feelings hurt or you won't cover for their inadequacies.
I think it is probably a good time for most quality software engineers to go out on their own. Having a consulting relationship with a company is very different than being an employee. The performance metrics are cleaner and most of the local political garbage is hidden out of the way since they're being billed hourly instead of having you on salary.
I didn't go to school to be a codenigger so I don't care :) should have gone for something that can't be replaced by idiots.
>>52110527
>retardo node.js faggots
While these people do exist, don't make the mistake of equating all three terms. Node.js is actually a really interesting platform: it's completely asynchronous and event driven. I know of no other such platform as well supported.
Believe it or not, Node is actually useful outside web servers, even if it wasn't intended to be.
>>52112553
Excellent idea and advice anon. Most of the /g/ population won't have the balls though.
Because python and other script kiddies made us all obsolete last year, right?
Keep dreaming
>>52110461
Cars is a bad analogy because anyone really can work on cars if they wanted to.
Guys who are good at working on cars have a practiced mechanical inclination and a familiarity with concepts and standards in use in car design that makes them way faster at it, but ANYONE can do the exact same job if they log where every piece goes and can get their hands on reference specs.
It's true manual labor and requires absolutely zero creativity or abstraction.
>>52111846
Kek, found the college student. I'm sure you got an A+ on that assignment, but modern systems are COMPLICATED. Try doing that kind of shit and five days later you'll still be pulling shit out of your ass trying to figure out what the hell is going on.
I couldn't imagine trying to comprehend the functionality of my project without the source. Hell, I couldn't imagine comprehending it in full WITH the source: no one person alive knows what everything does. We all just know bits and pieces, and we know who knows everything else.
>>52112741
>anyone really can work on cars if they wanted to.
go for it anon. go work on you're dad's new car tonight. see how far you get w/o the proper tools & training.
>>52112107
Let's just say you should keep your investments external.
Even the dipshitiest of dipshits know to keep a minimum of two sysadmins, each of which can keep everything running.
>>52112553
>ve been through three cycles of this nonsense, I'd rather not go through it a fourth time though I suspect I'm going to end up going through it a fifth, sixth, and seventh
Why not leave and go to an actual engineering firm instead of an MBA circlejerk? If your bosses don't value you as an asset then you shouldn't value them.
>>52112769
I have.
I replaced a head gasket and replaced busted engine mounts on a 1990 toyota supra turbo by myself without ever having knowing anything or doing any car work at all by renting a couple tools I needed and buying a $20 repair manual.
The value of a mechanic isn't that he can do the work, the value of the mechanic is being able to troubleshoot without tearing the whole thing apart to inspect every piece and then knowing ways to fix it without wasting a lot of time.
The work itself is fucking easy and if chimps had the attention span, they could do it too.
>>52112741
>anyone really can work on cars if they wanted to
No, I'd say this is false. It's actually a really good equivalence: anyone can change oil, air filters, and swap tires. It takes someone with aptitude to really fix cars: you have to know what your doing and have the inherent knack of how cars work in order to be able to diagnose and repair a problem when given the keys and "It's making a sound on the interstate".
> ANYONE can do the exact same job if they log where every piece goes and can get their hands on reference specs.
So? Anyone who passes a coding bootcamp can do the exact same job as a highly skilled engineer if they're told exactly what code to write. Technical skill isn't about blindly implementing solutions, it's about knowing what solution to implement and implementing it in a correct way.
>>52112871
sure thing, kiddo. try that on a newer system. surely it will only get easier for the untrained home mechanic to troubleshoot and repair automobiles in the future right?
>>52106409
You should stop and read what you write once in a while
>>52112976
Oddly enough, yeah. Especially now that the cheap little handheld computer you can buy that plugs into your car to tell you what's wrong with it is able to sense more and more things.
>>52112824
>Why not leave and go to an actual engineering firm instead of an MBA circlejerk? If your bosses don't value you as an asset then you shouldn't value them.
I have. This type of behavior is endemic. I know there are some shops that don't go in for this but they're difficult to identify from the outside. You pretty much have to work there to find out the truth.
>>52112660
I haven't done it but friend who have love it. There are downsides. You have to market yourself, handle billing, and all the other business administration work. You can outsource much of this but you're still not as focused on writing code as you could be in a well managed company.
>>52113022
Sure thing bro.
>>52113045
>you are now aware that the mentality of normies towards computing is your exact mentality towards cars.
>>52113025
>market yourself
Ehh, only at first. Once you're established (assuming you're good) contracts will come to you.
>handle billing
This can be simple if you're willing to take a small hit. You negotiate your rate upfront, you submit an invoice for $ (rate * hours) per month to the company's accounting department. If you're willing to do a lot of minutia you could jew a little more money out of them, but it's generally not worth the effort.
> all the other business administration work
Like what? Working alone, the only admin work is accounting, which can be outsourced easily. I suppose there's insurance to buy, but like billing, if you're willing to accept not getting the absolute perfect deal, you can handle this with a one and done.
>>52110466
I worked for a company that made gambling equipment. Our group made equipment that's deployed on casino card tables.
Many of our products used a 5-inch touchscreen that's directly mounted on a single-board computer running embedded Linux. The board is kind of like a raspberry pi, but somewhat bigger, faster, and with I/O ports that are customized to our needs.
All the other engineers in the group specialized in hardware and firmware (mostly, the programming that reads the sensors and controls the motors, cameras, etc.). My role was to design all the "miscellaneous" extra pieces of software and to develop the processes that were necessary to turn it into a complete product. So I worked on networking, GUI framework, installation, OS config, building and releasing, etc. Basically, if it didn't involve direct control of hardware, I did it -- like for example if they wanted to allow the product to be configured via a web page, then I would figure out how to do it. So I had to come up to speed on a lot of different things, but I never had time to get too deep into any one thing -- for example, I never had to build the Linux kernel, but instead I just took deliveries from the subcontractors who did.
This is the reason why I got into embedded dev.
>>52113117
Good to know. I've heard some complaints about accounts payable departments being slow or losing invoices so they have to keep on top of them to ensure they get paid. Still, everyone who is doing it seems to be happy so I might as well give it a shot.
>>52113384
>accounts payable departments being slow or losing invoices
> losing invoices
> losing
Lolno.
>>52106409
what the fuck programming IDE is that?
>>52106409
>not being the one writing those JavaScript libraries
sure, any idiot can replace mid level developers, but the high end ones who make the low end ones as productive as mid level ones will never be out of a job. Anyone can code, but there will never be enough who can code that well.
>>52106409
Have fun using those "techniques" for programming microcontrollers anon.
>>52115425
Mindstorms
>>52107329
Yeah, and anybody can boot up a laptop and type in the wifi password. Hurrdurrmesysadmin.
U havn a gigl?
Somehow I don't think I'll be obsoleted working on low-level network code. I struggle to think of even any of my current classmates who would a) be capable of working on such a project b) be willing to touch low level code without running off like a wuss.
Its true CS is dropping, its more a function oftoo many people.
And here's a tip: the jobs which require skill are difficult and competitive, there are still too many candidates per position.
the difference between a mediocre developer and a good one is staggering
there is a reason companies recruit so hard
>>52116797
>anybody can boot up a laptop and type in the wifi password
most people i know cant fucking do that.
>>52117008
Protip, most 4chan posters would be below mediocre.
>>52116997
>the jobs which require skill are difficult and competitive, there are still too many candidates per position.
The fuck? Where do you live, Mongolia?
In America, every (and I mean EVERY) tech company is recruiting nonstop, because they can't fill the building with enough intelligent engineers. You can walk into a conference or trade show and be swarmed by recruiters, and headhunters regularly go through Github finding people who make significant contributions to projects and offering them jobs.
Being skilled and having a provable background in SE means you can't walk out the door without people begging to throw money at you.
>>52117108
Then why am I still unemployed?
>>52117136
Are you skilled? Can you prove it?
>>52117136
>Being skilled and having a provable background
Because you're a scrub
>>52117058
yeah I know most of the people here are retards that argue over averaging intergers
>>52117258
I saw a fucking daily programming thread where some faggot was making a C library that did that without overflow! Fucking autism, man
