Are the coding camp alumns any competent?
And what's the point of 4-year CS degrees?
>barefoot
yissssssssss
I'm sure any that have done self-study to build on the programming they learn in the camps are on par with 4-year CS degrees.
That being said, 4 year CS degrees are a joke.
Build a portfolio, and learn on your own. The certifications are just so the HR departments will look at your resume.
>>52048766
>not being one with nature
>>52048795
Most self-taught coders can't prove or analyze their algorithms
Then again, somehow most CS majors can't either
>>52048750
>Are the coding camp alumns any competent?
No
They dont teach you to program in C or ASM and they dont deal with embedded microcontroller programming. I bet 99% of them dont even know how a transistor works
>>52048750
Why the hell isn't that girl wearing shoes?
>>52048817
That's irrelevant to 95% of coding
>>52048817
No one needs to know that nonsense.
>>52048819
Poor people attend these camps to get rich quick, its no surprise she cant afford footwear
>>52048833
knowing C is always a good idea, it teaches you the basics of how machines work
>>52048846
I do, i program 8 bit computers for a living, and i have to tell you, its more than just coding, you have to read through FAT datasheets to get a piece of info that will make or break your project
>>52048846
>homosexuals and sjw dont need to know all that "nonsence"
Ftfy
>>52048819
Girls wear uncomfortable shoes so they take them off.
>>52048750
Why are programmers so unattractive?
>>52048970
Anything that involves math immediately saps away your attractiveness.
>>52048970
>programmers
these are starbucks hippies
>>52048995
That's right.
The rest of us are all true scientists in the art of computation.
>>52048816
This is such a huge, almost disastrous problem too.
>>52048833
Not knowing how the computer works can be a problem when things go wrong and you're trying to figure out why. Recently was asked by our senior architect to look at some code that was causing problems. The problem was an accumulation of rounding errors. The code monkey who wrote it had no idea that computers don't store every number exactly. And when I tried to explain this to the senior architect, he had no fucking clue what I was talking about. Like the code monkey, he thought computers are able to exactly represent all numbers. Neither of them has a degree in CS, EE, or anything else related to computers.
Understanding things like two's compliment and floating point representations isn't very difficult. It's something you can learn quickly by reading the Wikipedia page but if you don't know that such a thing even exists, you can make mistakes and have no clue where to even begin to fix them.
>>52048795
>4 year CS degrees are a joke
No, they're very interesting and very valuable, but they have nothing to do with hipster web dev or corporate code monkey jobs.
CS is the science of information, not a training course on programming.
>>52049840
> CS is the science of information
kek
CS is a branch of math.
>>52049840
>>52049884
Those aren't mutually exclusive
>>52048816
>implying this is a problem.
Building secure software is infinitively more important than to prove your algorithms are secure.
>>52050371
>security is important
>the correctness of your security related algorithm isn't
Just came in to say that CS will net you lots of $$$ if you are not a social retard like 99% of /g/, that is the only reason they think it is a meme. Because they would fail to do it.
Stay poor beta fags. :D
>that qt azn boi in the blue plaid
my dick says yes
>>52048816
What does proving an algorithm mean? Proving it runs in time or something?
>>52050640
That it returns the correct result in finite time for any valid input
>go to law firm
>You: I taught myself law online
>Firm: fuck off
>go to a construction firm
>You: I taught myself structural engineering online
>Firm: fuck off
>Go to a hospital
>You: I taught myself medicine online
>Hospital: fuck off
>Go to software company
>You: I taught myself programming online
>Software company: You got the job
>>52050731
I have no idea how to do this. I just use unit test. How does one go about this? Is there something I can read about it somewhere, a source or something you personally recommend?
>>52050569
You're pretty accurate with that statement, I think most CS grads that are unsucessful just lack any sort of emotional intelligence, in fact I'd be willing to be anyone that states its "short comings" is either socially inept or put literally 0 effort into networking when they were in University or College.
Life is about how you talk, that's how you weasel your way in..
>>52050761
Cormen etc. Introduction to Algorithms
Most of the time you just use mathematical induction
>>52048795
>The certifications are just so the HR departments will look at your resume
Well, yeah. All the skill and knowledge in the world is 100% useless if you won't be considered for a job with it.
>>52048817
I was taught this for my CS major and I ended up getting a BA with only three semesters of CS classes because I switched over to CS my junior year. I can't imagine they don't teach at least some of that shit in Code Camps.
>>52050864
>All the skill and knowledge in the world is 100% useless if you won't be considered for a job with it.
Wage slaves, everybody.
>>52050847
You don't need to use induction or formal established proving methods. Just test your algorithms with
* Null input
* 1 element
* the extremes
* varied input.
And then walk through your code and identify potential points of failure. You don't math for this
>>52051411
You think I spend all this time learning about computers because it gets my rocks off? I do it because I get paid well.
>>52051640
Don't forget to test a completely invalid input, not just a null one.
>>52048750
>Are the coding camp alumns any competent?
I've heard conflicting stories.
>And what's the point of 4-year CS degrees?
Not much, unless it's a rigorous CS program from a top university.
I have a CS degree from a local state school. I learned a few things, but for the most part it was a waste of time. Yeah, I went over finite automata, the halting problem, P and NP, and the usual babby CS stuff.
But CS is just a branch under mathematics. Most CS programs are some kind of hybrid retard-math + retard tech school.
Unless you're going to MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, etc., I say don't bother with a CS degree. Get a math, EE, or mech-E degree. If you can't hack that, get a business degree.
Most businesses just need a body to shit out something that looks right. They don't really care how it's implemented (beyond maybe a few buzzwords), and they don't really care or understand long-term maintainability and technical debt. For every one project that lives for a decade or more, there are probably a hundred projects that were one-off orphans after a year.
The reality is that a majority of the needs businesses have are completely unrelated to what /g/ thinks is important.
>>52051640
That doesn't prove it is correct. Some algorithms fail for very few, yet valid inputs. Could be one out of a hundred or so. A mathematical proof is always better.
>>52050816
>I think most CS grads that are unsucessful just lack any sort of emotional intelligence,
In my experience, most CS grads are completely incompetent in programming. They barely made it through their classes, and have no meaningful experience. Also, tons of them are just super anxious, insecure people.
Interviewing for software jobs is kind of a joke. Companies go for a high rejection rate because they think that means they're getting the best candidates. Most people will get tons of rejections before getting hired. Lots of CS majors can't handle that.
>>52048795
God forbid you have them notice your resume
>>52049043
I didn't know that about numbers. Gotta investigate it a bit.
>>52051906
>tons of them are just super anxious, insecure people.
Yep, that's me.
>>52052166
A friend's sister graduated ahead of us, also in CS. She was... weird.
I seem to recall that after a mock interview, she was told that she needed to promote herself more and focus on her contributions.
So, she goes out to interviews and is an obnoxious, self-aggrandizing douche. Nobody wanted her.
She finally got a job at the same university from which she'd graduated, doing some kind of dumb IT-related stuff.
Anyhoo, my suggestion to people is this: don't fret. Honestly, I've never seen any result from special cover letters, from follow-up messages, or anything like that. Really, I think most interviewers have made their decision in the first ten seconds, and the rest of the interview is just them trying to come up with a plausible way to support their opinion.
If you don't like the people interviewing you, just walk away. If you don't like the questions they're asking and don't think that it's going well, just walk away. They'll probably pat themselves on the back because they got rid of someone who couldn't "stick with it", but do you care about the opinion of dumb assholes asking stupid questions? Do you want to work with people like that every day for years?
>>52048750
i know a few ppl who landed jobs after going to a coding camp. from what i've heard it's extremely tough in terms of how much work and time it takes to keep up. it's not cheap though.. you have to put down $10,000 - $20,000
>>52052307
>you have to put down $10,000 - $20,000
Holy shit, really?
I'm surprised they don't do some kind of "pay us x% of your first year's income" scheme.
>>52048846
If you want to do something Pajeet can't do cheaper, it is useful
>>52049884
So?
>>52052460
it's definitely a risk, but if you put in the time and work it WILL pay off. there are lot's of stories of ppl waiting tables for < 20k a year and are now making ~ 100k
>>52048750
Too many women. White knights will burnout. On the plus side, looks like no niggers in pic.
What I've found is that if you're looking to work in anything user-facing or consumer-oriented, formal CS training is a "nice to have" at best. It's certainly not required.
These days you have to tend toward a specialized niche to really *need* formal CS training.
Aside from that, there's a big difference between those who bury themselves in theory and those who have been in the trenches actually doing shit. Theory-obsessed types tend to be pedantic, impractical, and considerably less productive.
Competent at simple web dev work? Maybe, but people in India are more competent and will work for a tenth as much.
Competent for low-level, high-performance, large-scale, or complex mathematical work? Fuck no.
>>52050816
It's kinda funny; I'm networking away from traditional CS work. However, "cyber" has become the "in" thing, so being a CS major in a traditionally liberal-arts dominated field has its benefits.
>Tl;dr 80% of CS students should be doing coding bootcamps
A 4year CS degree is useless for most people because a) they're too stupid to grasp the concepts and b) their job most likely wouldn't use any of the higher up concepts taught. When I say a) I'm not trying to be an ass but if you aren't exposed to math and abstract thought at a higher age it's damn well impossible for you to understand the concepts when you get older. Most students don't have a good foundation in math upon entering university and their forever fucked.
To me a coding camp seems good because it shows people the skills they need to be a code monkey which is what most job openings are for. I didn't go to a code camp or university, I'm self taught and manage to find my current job because the company bought the little side business I had and took me on. They hire both 4year CS grads and code camp people but use them for different roles. The 4 year grads get more complicated task while the code camp kids get the lower code monkey type assignments. There's also a differ in pay with the cs grads making $20k/year more, code monkeys start out at $60k/yr while CS grads start out at $80k/yr
The thing is the code monkey like tasks are more plentiful meaning that there's more job openings for them and the CS grad positions are harder to fill because my company test their skills more and thus weed out most of the dumb fucks.
>>52052665
>if you aren't exposed to math and abstract thought at a higher age it's damn well impossible for you to understand the concepts when you get older
What?
I've done hiring for coders before. At our place we always threw away any applicants who couldn't do simple problems like fizz pop instantly. After that we'd look for people with four or more years experience, then two years experience and a CS degree, then two years and any degree, then just a CS degree, then just two years experience and finally people with just self taught and little or no experience.
Anyone who says a CS degree is a waste probably has little experience with what they're actually talking about. CS is a bit weird in that experience easily trumps formal learning, but to say that employers view someone with a degree in it the field the same as people who are self taught with comparable experience is mostly untrue. One of the few exceptions is some places will hire non graduates because they feel like they can pay them significantly less, and if you stick with making a bit less you can end up getting enough experience that no one really free if you have a degree though.
>>52052812
>Anyone who says a CS degree is a waste probably has little experience with what they're actually talking about.
Nope. Unless it's a top school, that time would be better spent on a better degree.
> ... but to say that employers view someone with a degree in it the field the same as people who are self taught with comparable experience is mostly untrue.
Nobody says anything like that.
People are saying that you're better off getting a degree in a much more rigorous major. Since most "CS" programs are just glorified babby math + babby trendy language and tools, it's time wasted that could be better spent elsewhere.
>>52052951
This. Get a real degree and career.
>>52048750
The piece of paper is extremely valuable but the information is not unless you are planning to do research. I went through rounds of applications at Google and basically could answer every interview question with knowledge from my first year. The upper division courses I took are interesting but aren't really useful because they don't go deep enough where you would be hired based on a specialty.
>>52048795
Found the web dev who was too dumb for a cs major and is looking to justify his poor choices in life.
Just after 1 year any good cs student would have more knowledge than you could gain in your entire lifetime
>>52053420
Found the CS student who has no idea how little he knows.
>>52052665
In what fucking third world country do you live in? USA? Retards getting 60k/year? Sure bro, almost believed it. Spread your lies elsewhere.
I don't believe that even Americans are dumb enough to offer jobs to fkin bootcamp hippies.
>>52053513
>implying that he knows more by watching shitty youtube tutorials than someone attending University
Keep living in your dream world
>>52053606
You do realize that you weren't replying to GP, right?
I have a CS degree. But you sound like an obnoxious CS student who thinks far too highly of himself.
>>52053553
>I don't believe that even Americans are dumb enough to offer jobs to fkin bootcamp hippies.
It happens often enough out here in SF that a fair number of people I meet in the field got hired after attending a bootcamp.
The truth is that for end-user focused software development the vast majority of what's taught by CS courses is superfluous.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if bootcampers are the first to get wage cuts and layoffs in the event of a financial crunch in the tech sector. It's just too good of an excuse to not use.
>>52053553
It happens. One of the contractors in my IT department was a campy. I don't think he hacked it, from what I last heard he is now at IBM instead.
Its more attractive if you wanna live in very specific cities where these camps have more connections. In San Fransisco the joke is there is 3 jobs for every programmer.
Does nobody know what CS is? Of all people the only person who has even acknowledged it was a taxi driver who asked what I was studying and when I said CS, he asked if I liked math.
Fuck programming and fuck all these code monkeys trying to devalue actual CS.
>>52053651
>I wouldn't be surprised if bootcampers are the first to get wage cuts and layoffs in the event of a financial crunch in the tech sector. It's just too good of an excuse to not use.
Nah, all the older, more highly paid people will get cut.
That's how it works. Zero investment in your employees. Hire out of whatever employee factory is in vogue (CS program, boot camp, whatever) that has the exact skills you need. When their skills are no longer needed, put them on a poor review plan. If they don't leave, then lay them off at the first opportunity.
>>52053727
You didn't read the thread, did you?
>>52053553
>thinks $60k is a lot of money
LOL how poor are you?
My first job out of college paid $85,000 a year and I was kind of bummed out because 2 of my friends were making more. $60k for someone without a degree seems fair to me. I work for a company that makes software for healthcare companies and they've been hiring some but mainly for web dev shit and their starting salary is $70k but this is in nyc.
>>52053727
As someone who has zero formal CS education and works full time as a dev, I don't devalue CS or assert that it isn't worth anything. It's great to have and offers great insights for those who partake of it, but it's just not necessary for modern software development. We're not stuck with plain C, assembly, and 4KB of RAM any more (That said, I specialize in Objective-C, Swift, and C++ and think that shit like node.js+webkit "desktop apps" are wasteful abominations).
>in this thread
butthurt CS grads who can't admit that they wasted 4 years.
>>52053961
You're deluded if you think education was a waste.
Alright, just to settle this with the codemonkeys right:
You do realize that you have not studied cs and thus are not qualified enough to talk shit about it, right?
You guys post shit without even knowing what is being taught + the most important thing of all you dont seem to realize is, that the really interesting jobs are for cs bachelor/master students only.
Pls just tell that you know that you NEVER will be on the same level as a cs student with real education who gets to work at bleeding edge stuff, while all you do is create another generic website for some chinese restaurant
>>52053961
Only two and a half years, and I wouldn't call a degree that got me a 160K job right out of college a waste.
>>52053798
In wich country is 60k$ considered poor?
>>52054144
>Pls just tell
Hello non-native English speaker!
>the really interesting jobs are for cs bachelor/master students only.
I beg to differ. At my job I write native desktop applications in C-family languages. It's not kernels and drivers, but that's fine with me because I find projects that involve direct end-user interaction far, far more interesting than stuff that most people aren't even aware of the existence of. I also enjoy making tools for other developers.
>>52054263
America.
I honestly don't understand how people live on a salary under $100k. If you're right out of school $70k is doable but once you hit 30 you should be making $100k at that point, if you're not you're fucked.
By your posts I can tell that you're screwed and you don't even know it.
>>52054225
holy shit what did you go into?
>>52053798
>but this is in nyc.
There's your answer. $85k in NYC is peanuts compared to $60k in, say, Tennessee.
Not that I wouldn't prefer living in NYC, but discussing salary without mentioning location is truly pointless.
>>52054616
Pretty much every big tech company like Google/FB/MS/Twitter hire people out of college for that rate.
>>52054731
>Pretty much every big tech company like Google/FB/MS/Twitter hire people out of college for that rate.
Bullshit. They're not hiring new grads at $160k.
>>52054793
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-salary-for-new-grads-starting-at-Facebook-in-2015
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-salary-for-new-grads-starting-at-Google-in-2015
https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Twitter-pay-a-new-grad-software-engineer
>>52054441
America has numerous vastly different cost of living regions. Cities are generally the worst places to live and have the highest cost of living.
In my town, 60k is equal to 100-120k in SF, and more in NY
>>52048819
what are you a fag?
>>52054885
None of those show anything near $160k for new grads.
>>52054968
My town is the same. 60-65k is equal to 100-120k in SF and New York. Large tech hub here too.
>>52054885
>Year 1 Compensation : about $175K (for UK its around £48k per year - not the conversion rate but an actual different salary!)
KEK europeans get paid peanuts and get taxed more. God what a shithole
>>52055029
>>52054968
I rather get paid 100k in nyc or sf and just commute to work, this is what I do currently. I work in nyc but live in Jersey city, it's the best of both worlds since jersey reimburse me for nyc's income tax and I get cheap ass rent.
>>52055122
I'd rather telecommute from home in a low cost of living city and still bank 75k/yr in a town where I can live like a king.
>>52048819
She enjoys the attention of foot fetishists
Girls realise when footfags stare at their feet
>>52055122
>government paying the state income tax of another state
What a bunch of keks.
>>52055122
>God what a shithole
It really is. America pls liberate.
>>52055157
Heh, I get both: a telecommuting consultant and an open office environment with ping pong and a kitchen and shit, right in the middle of downtown in my city, with parking added into my salary.
On top of that my employer enforces a 40/week policy since customers won't pay for more anyway.
>>52050761
You have to be able to comprehend what happens in your code. Not just all this code will do this. Proving an algorithm means, this does this, this does this to the result of the previous, this next one combines those, and this adds them up and gives you the result.
>>52048795
>>52048750
>>52051906
Daily reminder that CS is not a degree in programming. Please don't study CS in order to be a programming. If you want to study programming, go do a programming course.
>>52053798
Do I look like I give a shit about money? I don't live in a shithole like the USA and never plan to. 60k is a good amount of money where I live (eu) especially for someone with no education. It is impossible to get more than 40k(before taxes) without a degree here, because you know companies here actually require their employees to be intelligent.
Also
>implying money is everything
Greedy capitalist cunt. Get a better view of the world. I bet you would sell your parents if you had the chance
>>52055875
>because you know companies here actually require their employees to be intelligent.
Having a degree doesn't indicate intelligence. All it means is that you're good at paying tuition, sucking up to professors, and taking tests.
This didn't use to be true but modern universities are nothing but money rackets full of tenured faculty who just don't give two shits because they're immune to being fired.
>>52051810
What makes MIT/Berkeley/etc any more different? Wouldn't you still learn the usual CS babby stuff unless you went to grad school?
>>52056036
Only counts for the USA where Universities can be considered as companies. That's not education, it's business.
Listen alright :
I'm not trying to just shit on the USA, but I have a lot of friends and family members who studied abroad in the USA for 6 months and all said it was a joke compared to what they learned here(EU). American education is straight up shit. Only the top universities (top 20maybe? So the ones only snobs can afford) can offer good education.
I can assure you that this is what about 90%+ of my friends think. Like there's no way you can fail high school in USA,except for committing suicide. When I read that a lot of people don't even finish high school, It just makes sense how the fuck trump has very good chances of becoming potus
![5404700+_e7169dd2acc0f713431d04a3c1b6e228[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/nuKenyE.png "5404700+_e7169dd2acc0f713431d04a3c1b6e228[1].png")
>>52055875
Salty.
>America a shithole
Yeah it sucks here, millions of muslims flooding the country seeking benefits, double digit unemployment rate, high tax rate, high housing cost, need a Ph.D just to find a job and..... oh wait that's europe.....
the future american programmers are fucking SJW gaylords who cant really do shit, thank god for south korean developers will at-least save the game industry.
look at the clear discomfort everyone there has towards each other, represented by the significant spacing between people. There are literally guys sitting alone
>>52050731
I don't understand how someone can know how to code yet not understand* their code.
Don't listen to these people saying math is crucial to CS. If you know basic algebra, you're golden unless you're working specifically on math-oriented projects. The overwhelming majority of people who major in CS will never use the calculus they learned to get the degree.
>>52056423
You know that the shit you say only works if you hate people not of your race, right? Good thing my parents raised me well and I don't hate people based on religion and nationality.
If America stopped shipping weapons to fucking everyone, stop destroying people's homes and killing civilians they would have no reason to leave their country btw. You probably didn't even finish high school so I don't expect you do to understand it.
>>52056672
>DAE Amerikka bad?
>>52056711
>dae deny reality and vote for trump?
Gtfo redneck. I'm outta this thread.
>>52056620
CS == mathematics
>>52056335
Of course, I won't deny that for a second. Our education system is shit.
Which is all the more reason why if you're trying to get a programming job as a US citizen, a degree is pointless. American degrees do not denote intellectual ability and companies here know that.
>>52053606
CS degrees are good for getting into a job, the same way whatever schooling you do before uni/college is good for getting you into uni but not much else.
If you spent 4 years of effort on trying to learn computer science solo, you would ace any student just because of the amount of their time they get wasted. As long as you had some kind of structure to follow in what to learn, which is a Google away.
Lectures are such an inefficient way to learn for so many reasons, it's a bit of a joke.
Get the degree to get past HR, and learn some programming to get past the dev interview. It's just how it works.
>>52049043
You'd be surprised at how deep this problem goes. I was with a company that spent big bucks on implementing Microsoft dynamics for point of sale, only to find out later it had rounding errors. It was programmed to only deal with cents and we needed to apply fractional taxes to airplane fuel. Had to trash the entire deployemnt.
We were taught floating point arithmetic in a 200 level CS class. You had to implement your own floating point class accurate to 10 decimal places And benchmark it against the native c++ implementation.
Ameriburger web dev with no degree. I've found that of course, if I could go back a bunch of years, I should have done an IT related degree. What pushed me to go for the career was my best friend (degree, brilliant millionaire (equity made him rich)) told me that a huge amount of people who do the degree just aren't built for solving problems, especially not with code, but it seems like a super safe and well paying career path do they do it.
With debt I had no choice to go back to school. We grew up together programming and he told me I might as well go for it in my non-retail-suffering hours, and was able to break in. And yeah, some of my degreed co-workers make me feel pants-on-head retarded, but some of them can't solve new problems with out being spoonfed or just doing it for them. They'd be let go if it wasn't already hard enough keeping developers.
If developing software is your passion and you do it in your free time for fun, get the degree and your golden. If you're just looking for job security, step back and reexamine what you are passionate about, and pursue that however (college, night classes, self taught, whatever) you have to.
>>52057006
Yep, and the vast majority in this thread are the type who don't even know such issues exist because it is never mentioned in their "Learn PHP in 24 Hours" book. But the company that hires them thinks it'll save $10k on salary so they play with fire and eventually get burnt.
>>52056828
CS \subset mathematics
That being said, I believe a CS degree should also provide IT courses to prepare for the professional future of students.
>>52056036
>Tenured
US uni faculty is increasingly non-tenured
>>52058891
Half don't even seem to be human.
CS degree turned out to be very useful to me, without it I probably won't have this 6 figure job I have currently. The knowledge I gained from my education didn't directly translate into industry skills but god damn it helps so much whenever I'm learning something new. Especially since everything is built up from the fundamental theory you learn in school.
>>52052598
If I had to chose between women and niggers I'd chose niggers every time. At least some of them are bros and like anime.
>>52057029
>If you're just looking for job security, step back and reexamine what you are passionate about
Yeah this really rings true. It seems a lot of people go into CS thinking it'll land them a cushy job afterwards and they obviously don't have the passion to put in the extra work through internships or personal projects to actually land a job after college and then they go online and call CS a meme degree or something. CS doesn't directly translate to what I do in the industry but it's given solid foundation to build knowledge on.
I graduated from a bootcamp(Hack Reactor) and make 128k a year now a few months after graduation.
My experience? 90% of my graduating class sucked and was terrible while there were the top 10 who were great. It's not the bootcamp/degree that matters, it's the person. Some people will succeed no matter what.
That being said before I attended the program I self studied CS for a year straight even quitting school and my job to do it full time. I didn't go in completely green
>>52060400
>chose between women and niggers
that's a tough one
>>52050756
>"show your work anon"
>you can actually show them something
>>52048926
Most girls don't even have fucking pockets. Half of them carry their phone in their back pocket. It must fucking suck.
>>52057006
That's interesting.
What university did you go to?
In mine, we're familiar with the floating point representation in binary but we don't actually have to implement it.
>>52057006
>You had to implement your own floating point class
>And benchmark it against the native c++ implementation.
Just to show it was worse? How could you possibly get close to a native implementation without use of a FPU?
Am I missing something here?
>>52050756
If computer-schools were good then we wouldn't be in this position.
Though I can't speak for construction/law/medical obviously. Perhaps they also have bad schools but their employers just accept that.
>>52061901
Girls have a natural pocket
>>52062593
Of course it was worse. Sorry I left out that you had to be at least 70% efficient vs native or something like that.
>>52063328
Sorry for imagining you people were doing something useful in CS classes. It's a completely arbitrary problem with poor solutions.
>>52048750
One is about learning programming language syntax and basic programming paradigms, the other is about getting a rudimentary handle on the entire technology stack (that is software, OS, networking and hardware) and the theoretical basis of it.
Also a protip
>CS degree is not a "your complete guide to becoming a competent software/IT professional/researcher"
It only provides you with the proper framework on which you are able to build your understanding of whatever field you're interested in.
>>52052262
10/10 advice.
>>52048750
As with anything, you develop the rudiments in class, but you need to combine it with study at home. The same goes for history, law, physics, anything... A degree is only a starting point for self-directed learning.
>>52048817
Lie. Intro to programming I and II im C
>>52063328
There's no fucking way you can be within 70% efficient with a software implementation. Your class is bullshit.
>>52048750
I'll only tell you this:
Regardless of knowledge, skills, abstraction, etc. that a Uni degree gives you.
Employers hate risk. Thy really, really hate risk. You've heard about companies, like Goldman Sachs, having you go through 20 interviews? That's not a meme. It's to spread the risk. So if you fuck up, nobody gets the full blame for hiring you.
A degree mitigates the risk. Simple as that. Somebody (the university, the professors, your masters advisor, etc.) is vouching for you. If you turn out shit, they're to blame, not the person hiring you.
You might have some impressive personal projects, a nice portfolio that you built in your *spare* time. Nobody will care.
Why? Because if they hire somebody with no degree or references, 100% percent of the risk of your hire is on their heads. Yes you have an impressive portfolio. But maybe you lied. Maybe you plagiarized. Even if you didn't, maybe you're not suitable for a corporate environment, maybe you can't work under strict deadlines, maybe you're not a good team player.
Why would the hirer assess all the possibilities and take the risk? Instead if hiring somebody with a degree and references? Are you that much of a special rough diamond?
Protip: You're not. Ant they won't hire you. Case in point: the guy that built homebrew, an impressive personal project. He was rejected at Google for a junior position. Because he had no degree. The risk was too high.
>TL;DR: Employers hate risk. Without a degree, you're a gamble and therefore nobody will hire you.
>>52065283
You mean except in cases where companies actually have to compete with each other for workers. IE, where people aren't competing with each other very much for employment.
>>52065283
> Protip: You're not. Ant they won't hire you. Case in point: the guy that built homebrew, an impressive personal project. He was rejected at Google for a junior position. Because he had no degree. The risk was too high.
And he was EXTREMELY butthurt when they asked him a pure CS question about trees, which he could not solve.
>>52064012
The purpose of such an assignment is to make the student intimately familiar with how computers store numbers. Making it hands on reinforces the point.
When I was in grad school and taught the lab portion of a software engineering class, I always made my students write a report on a software engineering disaster. I could have simply lectured to them about a couple of them but by having them do the research and write up a couple page report, it made the lesson sink in rather than be just another bunch of babbling one day to be easily forgotten.
Last night's cache bug that revealed the account details of Steam customers likely was caused by someone not understanding the implementation details of how caching works. We keep seeing more and more of these types of defects as companies keep lowering their standards for programmers more and more.
>>52050756
>>52048750
Okay ill be honest here. I have literally never heard of a guy with no degree being hired in any company.
Im sure it might be a thing in s place like SF where you have startups funded blindly by angel inverters and stuff. But anywhere else? Nah.
>>52065832
Programming isn't computer science though. I have a degree in IT related fields, but I had no formal cs education.
I'm trying to fix my weaknesses in maths, and as for formal knowledge of data structures and algorithms, I have none.
I guess i will pick up CLRS at some point to try and fix it
>>52065860
>Code monkeying isn't computer science though
You don't need formal CS training to edit HTML, do basic loops, or CRUD apps. You also don't need a degree in structural engineering to build a deck on the back of your house but no one is going to let you build a highway bridge over a river with a degree in "related fields".
Most programming is code monkey shit. Nothing wrong with that. Code monkey shit needs to be done. Problem is too many code monkeys think code monkey shit is the only programming that exists because it is all they ever do or are exposed to.
>>52066084
This is exactly why we say that computer science isn't about programming. They are strongly related disciplines but they are ultimately distinct as you can do one without the other.
>>52066084
I want to make software is the point. Apps to do things for me, and games. If there are jobs for "editing html" then I'd like one.
I've been playing with front-end webdev for a while since I'm alright at photoshop and creative designing, and html + css and a JS framework is easy babby shit.
But, my main passion is c++. I've been working on my own basic rendering framework in dx11 since I'm tired of being ignorant of how graphical issues in computers work.
I've recently been learning about the programmable shader pipeline, and I'm not sure if this is still in "code monkey" territory or not.
But doing this alongside math, and the constant knowledge that i am weak in algorithm and data structure knowledge bothers me
>>52048795
>Build a portfolio
portfolio of what? what's worth creating?
>>52066330
It's a meme. If you actually have a degree from a respected university companies won't give two shits about what is on your github.
I just wanna program shit in my life and be an antisocial retard for the rest of my days.
Is this possible, or do jobs require actual good programming practices and other computer related knowledge?
>>52051813
A day late but I can't believe there's anyone stupid enough to think people who write software prove every function they write is valid via mathematical proof.
Honestly one of the most boneheaded comments I've ever read on /g/
Is this your first week in CS or something? Have you never written any software in your life?
>>52065321
He was rejected because they asked a somewhat straightforward but extremely poorly worded question. It has nothing to do with whether or not he had a degree.
He shouldn't have flipped out and tried to clarify what they expected of him, but 'inverting a binary tree' (by which I think they meant reverse the high/low order) is what everyone learns in first year and pretty much never uses again. To think that its a valid metric for anything is silly. I'm a mech engineer and even I learned that in my programming course w data structures and algorithms... it doesn't say anything about me as a programmer.
>>52066084
And yet 99% of CS fags become code monkeys whereas 99% of structural engineers don't build decks. There's clearly a problem here.
>>52066320
>I've recently been learning about the programmable shader pipeline, and I'm not sure if this is still in "code monkey" territory or not.
Its squarely in code monkey territory. If you are writing code, its pretty much code monkey shit. There's some interesting computer science in 3d graphics when you get into shaders, physics, optimization, etc. But mostly you are just applying other people's work.
Unless you're like one of the 1000 people that work at a university or as research scientists at AMD or some graphics company you're basically a code monkey
>>52066448
The tradeoff then, though, is that you have a school bill larger than the milky way from attending a respected university which will then co-opt your paycheck for several years.
From my standpoint it makes more sense to spend less of a fourth of the time and resources it takes to attend a uni and instead invest it in struggling to break into the industry. No, it won't be a bed of roses and nobody will just hand you a job, but once you do finally get in somewhere most of the money you make will actually be yours right out of the gate.
Fuck any kind of 4-year school bill that exceeds $10k. It's bollocks to the power of infinity.
>>52068499
>what is not being a total failure in high school so you can get scholarships
>>52068935
Getting an amount out of scholarships that's more than a pittance is extremely difficult. It's not just not being a total failure, you've got to be at the top of your class with near-perfect grades and things like community service and volunteering. If you're a straight while male, even that isn't enough.
It's anything but easy and a hell of a shitty way to burn away the only teenage years you'll ever have.
>>52053798
Honestly with no degree you would be lucky to find a 40k position
>>52057006
My 80 year old CS 201 teacher (hes an assembly programmer from back in the day, engineer actually not CS even) laughed at me when I pointed out its not uncommon for Point of Sale systems to deal with cents only to avoid floats etc.
Screw that guy
>>52065858
Nah it happens man, experience trumps degree. I worked with a guy that graduated from a boot camp at American Express for a while. He had some prior experience with another company but he didn't have a degree.
>>52053798
>but this is in nyc.
Literally the highest cost of living in the US by far. I wouldn't be surprised if janitors made 6 figures. Where I'm from in the midwest I mainly hear of people making anywhere from 45-60k with a cs degree.
>>52055122
>I rather get paid 100k in nyc or sf and just commute to work
like everyone who has those jobs already does. Any city is just working people by day, niggers by night
>>52070119
>nyc is expensive meme
It's like people think to work in NYC you have to live in Manhattan or something. Jersey and Queens offer a more affordable housing and nyc has probably one of the most developed public transportation in the US.
If you can't code in binary and haven't invented any deep neural net algorithms your "degree" is a joke on par with a trade school.
>>52070119
You also have to factor in how demand for developers in the midwest is weak as piss compared to demand in tech boom areas. Employers don't have to pay shit because they know any developers in the area will jump any height just to be employed.
By contrast in silicon valley, seattle/portland, and austin companies are the ones that are hungry and they have to boost compensation to even have a chance of filling positions. Out here it's not uncommon to see shit like $5k referral bonuses and even higher signing bonuses. The demand is THAT high.
>>52070193
if your computer isn't made out of drums and vacuum tubes, and you don't write in raw unadorned inscrutable hexidecimal numbers directly, you aren't a real programmer and you probably eat quiche.
>>52070235
>drums
>vacuum tubes
if you computer isn't made solely of steam-powered mechanical components and doesn't take up several acres you're not even trying
>>52070213
Yeah people don't realize this about Austin but it's hungry as fuck for developers. I'm seeing devs both new grads and seniors getting paid six figures which is insane.
>>52070427
IMO it's a great reason for anybody with decent skill in a useful programming language to get themselves out of small-town and/or midwest dead-end shitholes. The opportunity is sitting there for the taking but so many seem to have deluded themselves into thinking that they're better off sticking to Nowhereville.
I used to be a Nowhereviller but I left that behind and haven't looked back. The experience has been nothing but positive and I'm in an immensely better position than I was for doing it.
CS degrees are like math. You get them if you want to look cool or do research. Otherwise just code and get a job
>>52050371
Nigga how you gonna tell someone your software is secure if you can't explain the algorithm it uses?
>>52070596
Did you move to the bay area or something? I'm about to move to Austin this summer and I've been thinking about moving to either there or Seattle in a couple years.
>>52070805
Yep, currently living in SF. Been here for about a year and have been in the bay area for a few years now. It's infinitely better than where I came from (poor, tiny new england town).
>>52070709
There's lots of jobs for math majors
>>52068315
Hey guys, I found the elitist.
Anybody do any bioinformatics and work as geneticists or for them? Have any information on job outlooks?
>>52050371
>this is where software engineering is headed
You're a currynigger aren't you? Because at least a chink would know how to do fucking math.
>>52048817
>embedded microcontroller programming
OP said CS, not EE.
>>52053798
>but this is in nyc
Yeah no shit 60k is dirt poor in nyc. Out in the Midwest you can do pretty well on 60k though.
>>52074235
Whether or not that's a win really depends on how you want to live, though. So many things about midwestern life is potato, for many to the point of being unbearable.
Fucking code monkey plebs, I have an employee who writes all my code for me. I make him use Haskell of course and he implements my advancements in topological mathematics for me.
Traditional degrees in STEM won't even exist in twenty years. Companies are going to start recruiting students right out of high school and enroll them in proprietary programs at the corporate offices that are tailored specifically to what that company does. Guaranteed employment following a set probationary period will be the result of "graduating".
The big companies (Google, MS, Cisco, etc.) will be the first to do this, followed by pretty much every other company in the tech field.
>>52074327
That makes sense kind of, but why would tech companies want to invest that much in training people? I mean, it could make sense if they had a lot of extremely proprietary stuf that they do... But usually you need at least a masters anyway before you mess with stuff like that.
>>52074358
Because the school system sucks ass at preparing people for actual work. All it's good for is stuffing copious amounts of theory into people's heads, which as it turns out is only truly useful in a very tiny subset of the work that needs to be done.
>>52074387
Well most of the "actual work" that tech companies need done requires copious amounts of theory. Sure your average shitter company that needs CRUD app #567, that would work just fine. But not for big tech companies that are actually making advancements in technology.
>>52070259
>steam powered
>mechanical components
if you computer isn't an abacus, you're not even trying
>>52050640
check out formal design methods, pre conditions, post conditions, assertions, etc
>>52068286
99% of engineers don't go on to build bridges either. most engineers i know end up working in the same analyst positions as business and cs grads
>>52068315
technically anything in optimization or performance is cs and not code monkey stuff. same for data mining, AI learning
doesn't have to be uni research or an intel/amd job, most intel/amd positions aren't cs either, they're engineering disciplines
>>52074446
big companies like who? intel and amd are the only two. every data analyst i know that works for x bank or x company has completely forgotten all the theory they learned in college
>>52048990
I'm studying electrical engineering and I think I'm pretty attractive.
>>52068499
>getting a degree in Burgerclapistan
>>52049043
learning about some of the different bases numbers can be visualised as is a fucking eye opener.
One minute it's base 10 all day erryday next you're comfy as fuck staring at base 16 and mentally converting it to base 2 on the fly.
It all slots into place eventually.
little endian a shit.
>>52048750
is she exposing her feet on purpose just to be distractingly lewd?
> modern universities are nothing but money rackets
maybe in the US
in many EU countries higher education is fucking free
>>52054793
My firend got 150k offered from google and is still has 3 a year and a half before competeing his degree. It happens all the time.
But You have to keep in mins the people getting 150k+ out of university are also competant/social/smart
>>52053420
>one year
>intro to java
>>52048750
Yeah for webdev and that's it
the guy who was interning where i work was a 2nd year CS major
he was the worst.
a strong understanding of algorithms and their mathematical backgrounds is important, but using and executing those algorithms in an efficient manner is as if not more important. it's like: you can talk the talk but you can't walk the walk.
and yes, he was eventually kicked out because he was just performing so poorly.
>>52078161
This is a point I've been driving all thread. It doesn't matter if you can write the most perfect algorithms in the universe if you can't get shit done and working well in a timely manner.
Companies don't pay you for perfect code, they pay you for shippable code. Perfection should still be the long-running goal but having something that works is priority #1.
As someone going back to school for CS in the spring, this thread kind of scares me. Then again I already have a corporate entry level job with one of the big computer companies, and they're paying for most of it, it's for me to move up in the company.
>>52078194
>>52078969
Is it just the math that kills a lot of people? I'm semi-bad at math, but I know I can do well if I work at it. My first degree wasn't great, and my company offers to pay for Engineering and CS degrees, so I thought it might be worth it. I was going to do reserach while I was doing it, and practice a ton with work related task. Genuinely seeking advice here.
>>52068499
>selling your kidney to afford education
>>52078969
>>52079052
If you can do calculus, you can get a CS degree.
>>52079413
I was horrid at math in school, but I never studied or tried to learn, or paid attention. I was a really bad student. Reason being, I could get Bs in every class that way, so I was lazy. I failed one math class, and had to do the summer courses of it. I tried really hard in that and made high scores as a result. This time in school I am going to try really hard, so I like to think I wont do poorly.
>>52052262
w-what?
>>52049043
What the fuck they teach you that in high school cs
>>52048750
>bunch of asians and whites
>not one single african american
go fuck yourselves
>>52080346
They're doing distance ed, from prison.
>>52079457
calculus made easy.pdf
you cucks are all the same. you don't realise that people have been doing things with math, electricity and an assortment of other things that you can't even wrap your mind around FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS juust fine. you don't ever think "oh if they can do it, so can I" you are already defeated, and think oh well i don't know this stuff because it's hard, or because it wasn't taught to me right.
you are a cuckhold of your own mind, you defeated losers.
>>52079457
This desu
If you actually put any effort into it, pretty much anyone can pass Calc I to III
>>52075128
Citation needed
>>52080346
they are protesting with BLM
>>52079052
I've sucked at math to nuclear levels for ages. Even low-mid difficulty algebra throws me for a loop. I don't know if it's lack of mental capability or just bad teachers, though my teachers all had a habit of moving faster than half the class could keep up with, offering practically no assistance to those lagging behind.
Comparing coding camp people to CS grads is like comparing people flipping burgers at McDonalds with a chef.
>>52075267
You are indeed a very beautiful person anon :) have a nice day.
![iu[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/g9fQOHy.gif "iu[1].gif")
