>I'm a programmer
>Can't even do calculus
>>51239637
What level of calculus are we talking about?
>>51239812
pdes
who even cares? this type of "hack reactor" developer won't get that far anyway.
What are you talking about?
The vast majority of universities make CS students take a ton of calculus courses
>>51239865
>taking a course in something means you'll be proficient in it
So naive.
>>51239812
Just anything above high-school
>>51239865
A lot of freetards that consider themselves programmers don't even "believe in education"
>>51239637
>#include "calculus.h"
All you need to know.
>>51239865
Lol no they don't
>>51239947
real universities, not indian telephone scammer schools
Got plenty of calculus on my teeth.
come on now, in general, discrete math is 100x more useful in CS
>>51239947
Did you go to MIT or Stanford?
>>51239985
lol no they don't
here's a suggested CS program at MIT, it offers a grand total of 3 calculus courses
https://www.eecs.mit.edu/docs/ug/6-2.pdf
i learned all the complicated vector calculus stuff and the more difficult differential equations and it's never once come in handy while programming. not even the most basic calculus has. discrete fucking mathematics and mathematical logic, that's what comes in handy OP. ofc you wouldn't know that because you're a typical /g/ poster, convinced that his elementary knowledge of calculus far elevates him above the status of other people on this board, who probably just sit around banging rocks together or something
well i'll get to my fucking rocks and leave you the philosophers like OP to do the thinking
>>51239637
I can to calc and have seldom used it. As a web developer I can't recall a time I ever needed it. I use Discrete math all the time though.
However for my friends who went on to making Games or Business software calculus was required.
The thing is although CS does not use calculus directly for the most part, many places where CS is applied does us Calculus. Such as Business, Natural Science, Computer Graphics etc.
>>51239865
My school only required and still does require up to Calc 2. But you must take 3 levels discrete math. I went to the University of Pittsburgh so I am pretty sure my school is legit.
>>51240036
>>51240035
>mit
Well yeah duh they expect people that come there not to be complete retards
can someone explain to me wth calculus 1, 2, 3, ..., 1037 is ?
>>51240138
That's not even calculus.
Just Gauss sum the shit out of that.
>>51240138
all natural numbers between (and including) 1 and 1037? what are you even asking for?
>>51240166
>>51240169
i mean what's actually taught in those classes.
>>51240186
depends on the school
in my school (not in America so I don't know how it's like there) calculus 1 is high school stuff, differentiation, integration, problems related to that, etc. calculus 2 is vector calculus, calculus 3 is differential equations, calculus 3.5 (not called that but w/e) is complex analysis, calculus 4 is fourier analysis and laplace transforms, and then there's functional analysis as calculus 4.5
>>51240186
cal 1 limits, derivatives, applications of those, begin integrals
cal 2 applications of integrals, methods for solving integrals(by parts trig sub etc, sequences and series
cal 3 multivariable calc
and cal 3.5 dif eq
this is Illinois University standard
>>51239985
>indian telephone scammer schools
sounds like one of those rewrites of 4chan
lil pigu no:(
>>51240081
>As a web developer
He said programmers
>>51239637
>calculus
Engineer pleb pls go.
Pure maths are the only thing relevant to coding.
>I'm a computer scientist
>Can't even into calculus
This I can safely say is preposterous.
But being a programmer has an incredibly low requirement for entry. At least with computer science you are expected to have gone to university for a few years. To be a programmer you have to print to terminal, maybe compile.
>>51239865
I had to take up to calc 3 and some other math courses. I don't remember shit. One professor pretty much taught us how to pass his tests.
>>51241038
what is calculus used for in programming? physics in games?
>>51241002
>print to terminal, compile
Jesus christ is it that easy? What the fuck have I been doing all this time. Show me da money.
Explain why it matters to know calculus as a programmer.
>>51241065
Machine learning
>>51241108
Name something worthwhile you can program without calculus?
>>51241065
>>51241158
Nigga even something as simple as a tripcode on 4chan (hash function) requires calc.
>>51239947
Mine does, but maybe that's because their program isn't shit
var calculus = require('calculus')
/thread
I'm pretty sure all you need is basic algebra for Programming.
Pretty sure you just need to be smart enough to create your own equations to get something done the way you want it.
Or at least smart enough to understand how and why someone else coded something.
So. Basic Algebra.
>>51240036
Well, that's 1.5 years, although I really don't understand why it's linear algebra OR dfq. In that case, it might have been better to make a class that jumbles them together and skims over some topics.
>>51241173
Everything.
>>51241173
Anything that doesn't involve embedded work with analog signals. Seriously, I only had to use some calculus when I had to implement a pid feedback loop for a boost converter controller.
>make $70 an hour programming
>can't even do geometry on khan academy
>>51239637
Started learning about graphics. First time using any calculus and it's not a ton. Mostly just derivatives.
Typically for STEM fields calculus is required for Science and Engineering, it gets lumped with Technology degrees when really students would benefit from advanced courses in Discrete Math and Proofs: things actually used in programming
I don't even have Algebra down.
Just starting to understand fractions.
Thank you boonies.
>>51241254
So you think basic things like image scaling or password encryption or statistics collection just happen by fucking magic?
>>51241182
what calculus is used in a hash function? seems like it's more linear algebra and discrete math
t. history major
>>51239925
nice meme
>>51241310
literally googled "mathematics hash function"
https://eprint.iacr.org/2012/310.pdf
I am an overpaid spring/hibernate developer. There are no calculations involved in my job. Sometimes I need to think about complicated conditions/booleans. I went through college and did all the math crap, most of which I forgot already.
I am a programmer and I can't even do calculus.
What's so hard about calculus? You just increment the exponent down, after tying it to the coefficient and killing off the constants. That is 100% of calculus.
>>51241359
>>51241265
You fags seem to miss the difference between a "programmer" and a programmer. Someone who maintains a web-page or makes all the card readers in your building communicate isn't a programmer
>>51241405
That's 10% of derivatives which is in turn 10% of calculus. Good job, you know 10%^2=1% of calculus.
You can't even take the derivative of something as simple as X^X with that grade school stuff
>>51241408
Programming is programming senpai. Even if it's gluing pieces together to make CRUD apps. I think the word you're looking for is "computer scientist" which I make no claim to.
>>51241339
>https://eprint.iacr.org/2012/310.pdf
could you point out an example of calculus being applied in this? not busting your balls, i just haven't taken a math course since calculus in high school and am curious to see its applications.
>>51241430
A programmer is someone who writes new software with new/improved functionality from the ground up. "Programmers" are webmasters, code reviewers and so on.
>>51241446
section 3 deals with limits for instance
Programming is synonymous with computer science these days.
Just because it's so heavily abstracted that any retard can churn out shit code doesn't mean it's not mathematics at its core.
>>51241452
A programmer is someone who can program. And programs.
![child-art-painting-car-red-retouched-KNML[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tB13bzf.jpg "child-art-painting-car-red-retouched-KNML[1].jpg")
>>51241509
Yes, and a painter is literally anyone who waves a brush around. I think we all know the difference between a painter and a "painter"
>>51241427
Simple. You solve the problem using examples from the Khan academy, turn in your paper, and have it marked wrong. The fact that you do not go to office hours means that the error will never be corrected to satisfaction. There is also a random chance that it was marked wrong but is in fact correct. This leads to a divergence in the timeline. If you change what is a correct approach, then you will bomb the next test even harder, and skip a date with Emma Watson in order to study harder. If you change nothing, you will lead a successful life.
>>51241475
>limits
(if x<=y){}
checkmate math fags
>>51240103
>Pitt
>not CMU
sucks to be so close, yet so far away, huh?
>>51241531
Such a weak analogy.
What's next, mathematicians and pop singers?
>>51241531
That's not a painting, it's a watercolor.
>>51241575
That's not a limit. A limit is something you can use to for example determine if a variable can be cancelled for large x. You can't even draw a tangent to a function without it.
>>51241608
It's a perfect analogy. Do you put yourself in the same category as people who use pic related? Why not? You're both "someone who can program. And programs."
Same goes for for painters. They're both people waiving a brush around
Mfw programmers think worthwhile programs don't use calculus
Mfw >programmers
![scratch-01[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/XiLj3x6.jpg "scratch-01[2].jpg")
>>51241687
and pic related...
>>51241687
>Do you put yourself in the same category as people who use pic related? Why not?
What category do you mean? Anyways, that's still programming and just the fact of using scratch doesn't tell much about the actual skill level of a programmer. Or do you think that everyone who writes C is a programming prodigy?
Does it make you feel insecure when web developers call themselves programmers?
It shouldn't.
>>51239637
My money's on the Pig. Fucker looks psyched.
>>51241910
>the fact of using scratch doesn't tell much about the actual skill level of a programmer
TOP
FUCKING
LEL
>do you think that everyone who writes C is a programming prodigy?
No. I simply said there's a difference between programmers and "programmers. Just as there's a difference between kids fucking around in scratch and your job as a "programmer". see >>51241452.
>>51241965
Yeah. He looks like "go ahead nigga, see what happens"
>>51241971
#triggered
>ˈprōˌɡramər
>a person who writes computer programs.
maybe you need a new word
>>51241990
How can you be this autistic? (used correctly here, as in someone who has grave difficulties understanding nuances). I know what the formal definition is, but with EVERYTHING people make a difference between good and bad quality. Nobody will ever say "now THAT'S a painting" about >>51241531 even though it clearly is. Likewise someone will never look at the way you copy pasted quicksort into a vending machine OS and say now THAT'S programming
>>51241971
>Doesn't understand that plenty of skilled people use scratch to teach programming.
Okay.
>and your job as a "programmer"
And now you're categorizing me as a "programmer" for disagreeing with you. Who would have thought. Even when by your own definition I'm very much a programmer.
So much defensive categorizing just to make yourself feel better.
>>51239637
Someone just passed calc 1 and Intro to programming (Python) with a B.
Stay edgy OP
>>51242085
Even the best programmers write terrible code from time to time. Deal with it.
>>51242100
>use scratch to teach programming.
>use scratch to program (which was 100% obviously implied)
LOL LOOK GUYS I'M SPLITTING HAIRS!
>Even when by your own definition I'm very much a programmer. Ok. tell me about that great, worthwile thing you wrote that didn't take any calc
>>51241452
Nope a programming is anyone who writes computer code for a living/hobby.
>>51242122
how is that in any way relevant to >>51241531
>>51239865
CS is not a programming course.
>>51242163
What makes you think it should be relevant to that? Are you that high?
I honestly don't remember shit from any math courses from my time in uni.
>>51242208
sorry meant >>51241452
I'm not really giving you attention
>>51242222
Yeah, just ignore the fact that even writing terrible code is still programming. That's cool.
>I'm a programmer
>can't even solve Millennium prize problems
>>>/v/
>>51242245
and now you're back at >>51242085
>>51242248
How is that comparable to knowing calculus which a large fraction, literally millions of programmers do. Especially successful ones
>>51242253
Which happens to be exactly what the >>51242122 was an answer to :3
>>51242281
But that's not a valid answer. Writing terrible code from time to time has nothing to do with the difference between
>someone who writes new software with new/improved functionality from the ground up
and
>[Someone who is a] webmaster, code reviewer and so on.
>>51242304
It was in regard of
>with EVERYTHING people make a difference between good and bad quality
Anyways..
Programming is programming.
"Programming" is programming.
Those who can and do program are programmers, no matter the quality of code or the project itself.
If you can't accept that, you should go see a shrink and talk about how it makes you feel.
>>51239637
that's what computers are for
I can't do calculus either. I always hated it.
But I can do geometry, trigonometry, analytic geometry, algebra, linear algebra, discrete math... Those are interesting.
>>51240748
Whats pur math if not calculus? I want to learn pure math what book do i read? i'm reading spivak now, thought that was pretty 'pure'.
Unless you get into a line of work that uses Calc, you're going to forget all about it literally months after you graduate.
I took Calc up to Diff Equations, ask me about the last time I used a Laplace transform on my daily life.
Can someone explain to me where calculus would be used in, say, an operating system kernel, or a web browser, text editor, compiler, or a web application?
And how much of this goes beyond basic limits, integration and differentiation that one would learn before a university-level CS course?
Where can I read about the calculus that's used in computing?
>>51242268
If you can't do them or have never attempted them then you should seriously fuck off back to >>>/v/ you are not and never will be a real programmer.
>>51241687
Yeah when you paint your house you look up a "house painter", there's no implication of artistry there, stop being a retard bucko. I rather doubt you can do calc past high school level too if you can't grasp the nuances of these concepts.
>>51241308
>image scaling
But that's not calculus you fucking cretin
>>51239923
education is pretty meaningless desu
who the fuck ever went to school to learn something?
the only reason to go to school is to get papers you need to get hired at places that are not mcdonald's
>>51239637
This is a meme
>>51239865
>the same calc they make all stem majors take
>"tons of calculus"
no dude, shut the fuck up you baby bitch
you don't know any math, fuck you
>>51241108
DATA
SCIENCE
>boss:"anon I need you to scrape this data and do a linear regression"
>you:"what's a linear regression?"
>boss:"you're fired"
calculus is hardly ever used in programming outside of junior year CS in highchool. discrete and linear math are actually usefull. At least thats from my experience.
>>51239865
There are meme schools with meme programming degrees that just teach you java, c++ and how to be a code monkey.
>Make da big buck$. Make da late$t hotte$t app$ $on
>>51239865
>tons of calculus
>babby calc I
>babby calc II
>babby calc III
>babby's first differential equation
>>51240034
Calculus is useful too
You should be proficient in both
>>51240081
Web development isn't even real programming
>>51244682
This, I think most people here have no idea what calculus even is...
>>51240138
You can approximate it with an integral
>>51244519
All undergrad math is basically applied math
>>51239637
>using the 1990 definition of programmer in 2015
Your fault for being retarded
Programming is for soccer moms and shitskins
>>51239812
addition subtraction multiplication division
>mfw what you guys describe as calc1+2+3 is just calc1 in a greek cs uni
>mfw some european review people said they need to tone down the maths
>mfw i have no face
>>51247825
this is not true - not sure where you studied - but i did PDEs in high school. in college we went way way beyond that shit, advanced geometry, advanced PDEs, advanced algebra and number theory.
that said - it does not really have any applications in engineering so i don't remember it now.
>walk into intro to CS class
>Normie to autist ratio is 3:1
>mac fags point and giggle at my x200t
Jokes on them when they have to face their fear of math
>>51248025
So true. Programmer, Developer, Engineer titles are all synonymous with code monkey in this day and age. If you can write html you're a programmer.
>>51248069
toning down the math is not a bad thing - it really has no practical use, seriously.
and the field of math that's relevant changes all the time.
yday it was discrete math and probability, today it's linear algebra and category theory.
fine - teach the basics of all those - maybe spend one course each on like the 5 - 6 branches of mathematics - but anything more than that is overkill.
btw - i have never seen a use case for differential equations in the real world, same for calculus in general although i guess thats more foundational
>>51248149
Programming is a tool you use. It's not a job title or skill to be proud of with the level of abstraction present in 2015. OP is just some autist that probably thinks knowing a little C makes him a walking god
>>51247493
lol - you think u need to know calculus in order to do a regression analysis?
that's like saying you need to know real numbers in order to do addition
>>51248169
oh i agree. Discrete Math, Math Logic and some algebra is enough for the base CS course I feel.
Calculus I think is more useful in signal related stuff when you need to use Fourier Trans and stuff (although i don't know if it's actually used at all outside of uni)
>>51248176
Programming and Programmer has different meanings. OP refer to programmer. The post I quoted did say programming but I am merely reiterating the fact that being a programmer, developer, or engineer is almost the equivalent to a soccer mom programming in html.
>>51242365
>implying computers can prove higher level math facts
>>51247825
Differential equations are for niggers
>>51248241
Markup Languages are not programming languages
>>51248241
you're saying someone who makes 120k/yr with the title of software engineer is essentially a code monkey?
>>51248266
what the fuck are you doing that you need to prove 'higher level math' in the form of calculus
discrete math yes, calculus why
>>51248235
> although i don't know if it's actually used at all outside of uni
not very. high school calculus is _more_ than sufficient
>>51248214
yeah I also like to call libraries and functions that accomplish tasks that I don't understand
fake it till you make it, right?
>I'm a programmer
>I'm also homosexual
>women's studies is my profession
>>51248326
idk - we seem to be doing pretty well with that.
in the real world, regression analysis is done by people using excel
>>51248326
sorry dude, youre right, but i think you missed one important aspect
if you didnt build your own computer with your own ores you basically arent a real programmer
so yeah, youre gay
>>51248094
>this is not true - not sure where you studied - but i did PDEs in high school
no you did not
>he thinks that small section in calc II where you learn how to separate variables and integrate with respect to two variables is a full course on PDEs
fuck you kid.
>>51248348
>implying this isn't the perfect demographic combo that HR depts fight each other for
>>51248298
Not all but the bar has been lowered drastically. Was looking at some job postings to see what the market is like and I keep seeing "Sr Software Engineer must has 5-8 year experience, salary ranges from $65k - $72k"
>>51248291
Yes,we all know that but in the mainstream market it is accepted that it is a "pseudo-programming language" because lol I make websites bs.
>>51248367
yeah - i don't get him. the same person who says that you need to know calculus to do regression analysis - says that databases he performs his operations on should "just werk"
>>51248383
umm i did
>>51248406
well shit I always assumed those jobs were for the guys who didn't know anything.
I'll have to make sure i'm in the top .1% for competency when I graduate.
>>51248413
regression is actually linear algebra (another branch of math programmers just don't understand)
and no you did not take PDEs in high school fuck you kid
ODEs maybe, but you did not take PDEs
>>51248455
>NO YOU DID NOT TAKE THIS IN HIGH SCHOOL SHUT UP IM RIGHT YOURE WRONG
>but i did
>SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
nice anon really professional
>>51248477
I'd be surprised if you took PDEs in high school.
I didn't even know what a partial derivative was in high school
>>51248455
it's been more than a decade - and i don't remember well, so had to double check
but yes - we did ODE, but also did some PDE towards the end (vaguely remember the two independent variable thing in school).
first sem college we started off with PDE directly.
>>51248497
I wouldn't say you learned PDEs then.
Did you even know what an eigenvector was and how to solve PDEs with complex solutions?
>>51248447
>implying that your swanky 5.0 GPA means fuck all if you cannot apply what you learned
>>51248537
that's what I mean.
I need to make sure I get hired at google or some shit
>>51248534
not in high school no, vaguely remember doing that stuff in my first sem math.
but i really understood it only when I applied it to machine learning several years later.
but that was my original point - people over state the importance of abstract mathematics for CS / ECE
>>51248552
>my highest aspiration is being a wagekek
kek
>>51248592
What's your highest aspiration, friend?
>>51248606
Not him but I sold my startup, retired, and am now NEET.
>>51239637
So, my dad knows this civil engineer. They got to talking one day.
Civil engineers are proper engineering. It's a real profession, with certification and licensing that says you know your shit.
So, one day a company brings in a project. For whatever reason, doing the analysis on the project required actual Calculus.
Everyone at the company was so used to SolidWorks, or whatever other unthinking system they'd been conditioned to use, that everyone just stood around stammering, scratching their heads, and passing the problem on to other engineers.
There was only one guy in the entire office who could actually do it. He was the "old guy".
Anyway, I'm not trying to make some kind of ageist thing here, I just thought it was funny that an awful lot of "real engineers" don't even understand Calculus.
>>51248622
>am now NEET
nice I guess, but I actually enjoy my job so I'm not sure if I would like that.
>>51248069
What is covered is calc 1 in Greece, and how long does the course last?
At my university (which uses a quarter system with optional summer classes being one quarter) as I remember:
Calc one: Basic definition of limits from newton, than more modern definition from real analysis. Finding limits, proving continuity, mean value theorem, differentiation rules/techniques, optimization problems, multi-variable functions and partial differentiation, integral approximation techniques, Simpson's rule and things like that, interlude on least-squares, weighted least squares, Riemann integral, Basic Integration techniques, Fundamental theorem of Calculus, anti derivatives.
Calc 2: Further integration techniques, trig substitutions, change of coordinate systems, partial fractions, several others. Basic vector calc (linear algebra is taught concurrently), parameterized functions, integrals over vector fields, grad, div curl.
Calc 3:
path integration, stokes theorem, green's theorem, Infinite series, basic complex analysis, Cauchy integration, touches of differential geometry.
If you covered all that in a ~3-4 month course you either were in a special program or more likely full of shit.
>>51248094
>advanced PDEs and advanced geometry don't have many applications in engineering
I don't know what kind of engineering you're doing, but I certainly don't want someone who thinks that way designing the bridges I drive on, electrical infrastructure I rely on, or planes I fly on.
>>51240103
When I was in college, I think only Discrete Mathematics was required.
BUT, they actually offered a specific "Discrete Mathematics for Software" course that was like a retarded version. I was a math minor, so I took the real one. The math professors absolutely hated the CS students because they were all dumb and lazy (I know I was!).
That was a long time ago, though, and I've forgotten almost all the mathematics that I ever learned. I did at least Calc I - III (IV? I don't even remember!), discrete, linear algebra, and a grad-level fundamentals of mathematics (where you prove arithmetic) that I flunked because I never did my homework. :-)
>>51248622
what was your startup?
>>51248630
that's _fine_ though. we as a society grow and develop when we accumulate new skills and knowledge on top of what's already existent.
at some point - you take for granted that X works and you build / learn A, B, C etc that directly sits on top of X.
>>51248630
>muh engineering degree
LMFAO
>>51242345
> in regard of
>>51241408
>Someone who maintains a web-page or makes all the card readers in your building communicate isn't a programmer
Programming is literally any sort of construction of an algorithm which automates the task of instructing a computer as to what to do.
Writing Autohotkey scripts? Programming.
Creating complex spreadsheets? Programming.
Creating web pages that contain any sort of logical flow? Programming.
Writing AI engines? Programming.
>>51248487
>I didn't know what a partial derivative was in high school
Sorry your high school calc program sucked.
I agree with you though. Anyone who thinks they studied PDEs in high school either doesn't know what they're talking about or were in some special school prepping you to be a PhD physicist.
>>51248666
>I don't know what kind of engineering you're doing, but I certainly don't want someone who thinks that way designing the bridges I drive on, electrical infrastructure I rely on, or planes I fly on.
If this was real world, I would bet you on a trip to Gentleman's Club that most engineers who design bridges, electrical infrastructure or planes - would not know anything more than high school or college first sem math.
They'd probably just reuse design done by in house or academic researchers at the most.
>>51239923
>leaders if the freetard movement were all grad students
>hurr freetards don't believe in education
K
>>51239637
>There people who fell for the meme numbers
>Continuous mathematics
>Programming
How does it feel to not know how a computer works anon?
>>51248686
>that's _fine_ though
Well, no, it isn't.
Their certification says that they can handle projects like this. But they can't. They just learned what they had to in order to pass some tests, then completely forgot it. They're now over-reliant on simply walking through the steps that their software takes them through.
They are devaluing themselves. They are literally becoming self-programmed automatons that simply input data into, e.g. SolidWorks and see what it tells them.
Consider this example from software engineering (from my work experience, in fact):
We're tasked with automating nightly builds, and periodic releases to QA and, subsequently, production. The nightlies rarely need any attention, but the QA releases have to be digitally signed, they need to have various localization resources applied, they need to have icon and text resources modified for various white-label releases (i.e. our product, Jimmy's Drawing App is also released, re-branded as Dave's Drawing Suite in a licensing deal), etc.
Programmer #1 does each and every step by hand. He painstakingly steps through each and every string entry for the various language localizations, making sure they look right, despite not reading those languages. He copy and pastes several different size and color depths for each icon, for ten or twenty individual icons. He applies the digital signature and enters the password each time.
Programmer #2 automates all of this. The releases now happen instantaneously, with zero errors.
Programmer #1 had a nice job making his own spaghetti every day. Programmer #2 came along, did his actual job, and automated all of those repetitive tasks.
Programmer #1 now has nothing to do. Most of his work was just busywork. Programmer #1 is those "civil engineers" who only know how to take input (the problem) and express it in a finite element analysis tool, and look at what it tells them.
>>51248789
>
If this was real world, I would bet you on a trip to Gentleman's Club that most engineers who design bridges, electrical infrastructure or planes - would not know anything more than high school or college first sem math.
I'd take that bet in a second.
>>51239923
I'm set taught programmer but I took all of Calc and linear algebra plus different equations at a community college where we had a pair of good teachers.
>>51248866
>Automation is bad
kek'd
>>51248803
>leaders in martial arts were very well trained and dedicated
>most people talking about it today are fat faggots who would blow out their knee falling from a skateboard
>>51248759
see
>>51241452
Why? That's similar to what I wrote.
>>51241531
Why? That's stupid.
Here's the deciding factor: can you support yourself doing it?
"Painters" come in several types. Do you paint landscapes or portraits with a brush? Do you paint cars? Do you paint homes?
Anyone can grab an easel, watch Bob Ross, and call himself a painter. Anyone can buy a Harbor Freight spray gun, a respirator, and shoot paint on a body panel (I know I have). Anyone can put on some splattered overalls and roll some paint on the wall.
But you're not a painter until you're supporting yourself by doing it. And in each and every case, there is some degree of talent and developed skill involved (various degrees for each).
>>51248918
I'm confused, do you actually think my point is that automation is bad? Is that really your takeaway from what I wrote?
>>51248956
My takeaway (although you scenario was painfully convoluted) is that you value theory over experience
I would venture to say that although the civil engineers don't know calculus well, they could easily look it up
They're concerned with getting the job done, not theoretical bullshit
What the fuck are you autistic warriors even arguing about this for.
Reality check.
I make over 150k and I only just started programming for a career this year. Literally, no work experience, just graduated, average grades, finished my internship, signed a new contract with my company, and I'm making 150k pre-taxes, and I haven't had to use calculus a single fucking day of my life outside of a classroom.
God I'm so fucking embarrassed of /g/ sometimes. What the fuck is wrong with all of you. I know you're not trolling. You sincerely mean this shit, all of you.
What the actual fuck is wrong with /g/. How did it get like this?
>>51239637
>math majors jealous of our salaries
>>51249039
Autists are asshurt that their knowledge of extremely esoteric mathematics is in no way applicable to the real world
>>51248935
>Why? That's similar to what I wrote.
"programmers" are second grade humans. What they're doing is just any other job, not "real" programming. Likewise, high-school dropouts who sit in a callcenter telling old people to restart their routers aren't "support technicians", even though that's their title.
>>51249015
On what basis will you know you're doing the job well ahead of time without theory
>muh experience
Every situation is different. Experience without theory is bound to recapitulate past mistakes. In short, if an engineer without a firm grasp of "theoretical bullshit" is not an engineer but a technician or a manager implementing the work of engineers.
>>51249039
>I make over 150k and I only just started programming for a career this year.
Go ahead and provide us all the details on this amazing success story. Location, company, division, etc.
Your experiences don't jibe with anything I've read from new grads around here.
>>51249062
>math major
>any job I want
>300k starting
aren't you the ones complaining about getting outsourced because indians can write better code at a fraction of the cost and autism?
>>51249039
>I make over 150k
>no experience
150k rupees/yuan I presume
>>51249087
>"programmers" are second grade humans.
"Programmer" is a huge spectrum of people with varying abilities, you retard.
That's the point.
> high-school dropouts who sit in a callcenter telling old people to restart their routers aren't "support technicians", even though that's their title.
1) How is that relevant? I thought we were talking about "programmer".
2) What do YOU call someone who walks people through technical diagnoses over the phone? I mean, they have to have some kind of job description, right?
Your entire ill-framed argument seems to be a desperate attempt at self-validation.
>>51249110
I live in Seattle and I work for a development division of Microsoft. I got hired in my fourth year into an internship with the company after I spoke with the student career center of the university and gave them a resume to hand out for me. I got emails within a month from various job offers and I thought working for Microsoft was a good choice, so I called them back and then had me come in for three different interviews before they offered me the internship, and said that once I completed it, I would be reviewed and offered a salary position if I wanted one.
I guess I did a good job because they kept me on and I got this job.
>>51249039
janitors on offshore oil rigs earn more than you. They're still just fucking janitors.
It's cool that you're earning a respectable wage and all, but being a programmer is about writing worthwhile programs. Tell me about the worthwhile programs you've written
>>51249097
I see your point
I suppose the world needs technicians and managers more than it needs engineers
Shit sucks
>>51239637
Programmer are the most autistic people on this earth
Case in point: this thread
>>51249162
Honestly, no it's not. Success in life is what you make of it.
For me, success is just having a job where I do what I'm good at and I get to live a middle-class life. What you want is something esoteric, like, you want to achieve some kind of personal subjective standard, and I don't really want that. I'm not a fanatic intrinsically motivated person. I need to see objective rewards for what I do, like a comfortable life where I get to enjoy myself and spend time with my family and friends or buy nice things that I might want to own. I get satisfaction from material rewards like that, not from the innate feeling of accomplishment.
>>51249148
>"Programmer" is a huge spectrum of people with varying abilities, you retard.
No. see >>51241452
>1) How is that relevant? I thought we were talking about "programmer".
Their title is "support technicians". But they don't know anything about technology and have no qualifications except following a flowchart and passing actual problems onto second line. Same goes for a lot of people titled "programmer". It's a really obvious parallel. I'm sorry it's hard for you.
>What do YOU call someone...
I dunno. Phone-monkey? Dropouts? Indians?
I know math and differential equations, as well as integral equations and integro-differential equations. And they're shit. Math cannot solve jack, it's all done numerically on the computer. Computer science is king.
1) Computer science
2) Getting lots of hot pussy
3) Chemistry
4) Medicine
5) Physics
>>51249097
>On what basis will you know you're doing the job well ahead of time without theory
this is exactly what verification tools are for. granted software verification is not good enough yet - but every other field of engineering have verification engineers
>>51239637
>YOU HAVE TO KNOW MUH CIRCLEJERK PARTIAL DIFFERENTIALS
>mfw I just enter the diff. eq. and the computer solves it
what >>51249235
said
Only some kind of non-valid has pictures like that saved to a hard drive.
>>51249097
>Anonymous 11/08/15(Sun)14:40:15 No.51249097 ▶>>51249164 >>51249254
>>>51249015
>On what basis will you know you're doing the job well ahead of time without theory
that said, i dont want to call it "theoretical bullshit" - i have seen too many bad managers discount the value of _Some_ amount of theoretical reasoning - but on the other hand i've seen bad engineers going overboard as well
>>51249211
I haven't talked about success.
All I've said is that if all you know is math from high-school, it is extremely hard to do anything worthwhile with code yourself. You have to rely on the real programmers to write stuff for you.
>>51249235
>>51249266
Every single one of those fields is completely dependent on math. Not knowing math literally makes you a kek since you can only work with whatever trickles down from your masters. You can't even write an Angry Brids clone without having to lick up old code real programmers jizzed out a decade ago.
i make 60k a year and dont know what a for loop is. i just drag and drop.
>>51249153
No wonder the microshit shilling is so hard these day. Kill yourself and take your shitty ass company with you
>>51249302
Ehh, that's bullshit. You don't have to be an assembly programmer to write "real code".
Honestly these days with so many easy high level languages speed matters much more than quality. There's some very niche positions for people who do highly optimized embedded work and straight C and Assembly but what's truly valuable is being able to shit out something quickly that works.
>>51249358
>doesn't enter Cyкa Блять
>>51249302
But that's my point. You keep using qualifiers like "real" to denote "better", implying a greater degree of success.
I'm saying success is subjective, and you are only defining what it means to you, or to the people you're describing. For me, that's not success, and so to me, that's not what a "real" programmer is. A real programmer, as I define it, is someone who programs computers, period. Beyond that, it comes down to how much people are willing to pay you for the code you wrote, or the market value of the project you worked on. That is the REAL value of what you do. Not some made up subjective opinion like, "it uses calculus therefore it's real".
Nobody cares about things like that except people like you. The rest of us care about the quality of our lives and the quality of each other's lives. My boss cares about the quality of my work in terms of whether it meets the requirements of the project, labor costs, company policy, things like that.
...not whether I used calculus to produce it. Lol, that would be kind of funny if he said that to me actually. Like, that would be a pretty funny joke.
>>51249389
>as I define it
SJW detected
>>51249357
but you can look up whatever equations/algorithms you need
why reinvent the wheel?
>>51249410
Uh, no. Fuck feminists, and transgenderism is a disease.
Next.
>>51248666
it sounds like your calc 1-3 curriculum taught at least 15% more stuff than mine did
I hope I'm not in a shitty program
I bet you also think in-house proprietary encryption algorithms are superior to the tried-and-true open source ones.
>>51249447
just go through Papa Rudin over winter break
you already learned most of it so you wont have too much trouble, and you can claim math autism powers once you finish.
>>51239637
Ya, its generally not important for programming
From 3 years of experience I have to say statistics would be most important, but I might be biased because I do analytics. Discrete math is also somewhat important.
>>51249383
I haven't talked about "real code"
All I've said is that if all you know is math from high-school, it is extremely hard to do anything worthwhile with code yourself. You have to rely on the real programmers to write stuff for you.
Again. Why don't you describe something worthwhile you've written. Let's see what cool stuff you can do without math.
>>51249358
wtf - how does a non-root program have the ability to shutdown a system?'
>>51249521
it prolly hacked into his mainframe or something
>>51249389
>You keep using qualifiers like "real" to denote "better"
Yes
>>51249389
>implying a greater degree of success.
No you retard. That's hardly ever the case. See pop singers vs. people actually writing music
>A real programmer, as I define it, is someone who programs computers, period.
see >>51242085
>>51249521
Check your privilege escalation.
>>51249507
he fundamentally disagrees with u on what is worthwhile, so you are not going anywhere with thatt
>>51249562
why dont u give an example of a worthwhile program and explain why its worthwhile.
>>51249389
>But that's my point. You keep using qualifiers like "real" to denote "better", implying a greater degree of success.
He's desperately trying to reinforce his sense of superiority.
He's not very successful himself. He spends his day posting horribly thought-out arguments on /g/ and tells himself that because he knows some arbitrary thing, he's magically superior to others.
>>51249521
This is windows "security"
>>51247825
my school makes you take analysis as a CS major
>>51249302
>All I've said is that if all you know is math from high-school, it is extremely hard to do anything worthwhile with code yourself.
That's simply completely wrong.
There is an enormous amount of value to be created for individuals and businesses using nothing more than, say, Visual Basic, a database, and no math or CS knowledge to speak of.
I actually know a guy exactly like this. His clients are generally extremely happy with what he creates, and he makes an amazing amount of money for how, well, dumb he is.
>>51249416
"looking up" whatever equations you need is like not being able to hello world and just "looking up" whatever code you need. If you don't actually understand the code/eqs they're fucking useless. You will never be able to have custom functionality and you won't be able to fix any bugs. I.E. your program and code will be fucking shit.
>>51249568
>>51249604
>u
Really?
Calculus has a lot of useful applications, but some of the examples posted in this thread, like image scaling or encryption, are pretty bad.
>>51249635
>There is an enormous amount of value to be created for individuals and businesses using nothing more than, say, Visual Basic, a database, and no math or CS knowledge to speak of.
Give an example
>>51249681
>Give an example
You cannot possibly be this stupid.
>>51249562
Did you even read my post?
I said if you want to talk about "worth" - then start talking about market value. What have you produced with calculus that actually has any market value, and how much?
Because I can promise you, in the end, you don't need to know calculus to write code that has tremendous value to your company and get paid well to write it, and those who can come up with some fantastically well-planned out module using calculus aren't really making that much more money than the rest of us "monkeys" at the end of the day anymore, because companies don't give a shit about how talented you are. In fact, if you're overqualified and start demanding more money they'll just replace you with someone less-skilled who will work for a cheaper wage, so all your talent amounts to being crippled if you're just trying to survive in life.
Sorry, but if being a fucking virtuoso at what I do means being homeless, then fuck that, I'd rather be a knock-off artist and have a nice life than sell my fucking soul for a muse that does me no good.
>>51248241
>Programming and Programmer has different meanings
autism incarnate
You guys are so retarded it's not even funny.
>I studied [insert stem field], we had tons of calculus
>lelel, stfu kid, no you didn't, you don't know shit
This is why I migrated to leddit.
>>51249743
>refers to HTML as a programming language
>autism incarnate
Pick one.
>>51249755
I've found Reddit to be as bad, or even worse.
Way too much
>10 things every programmer should know
Turns out to be ten things useful to a front-end web dev.
>random rant vilifying subset X of the programming community
Basically exactly the same thing you get on /g/.
>>51249769
Not GP, but where did anyone say that HTML is a programming language?
That said, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone talking about HTML on any technical board who isn't implying HTML + CSS & Javascript. Getting all pedantic about the strict meaning of markup language is a symptom of autism more than it is a valid criticism of someone's argument.
Why is it always the first year CS students that are the biggest elitists?
I've been working as a developer for 3 years, and programming for 6. Not once did I ever need any mathematical knowledge which was beyond what a quick google search could give me.
>>51239637
It's been decades how come animals still don't know what guns are?
>>51249690
You're going to give an example like making automated stations on an assembly line communicate to reduce waiting time.
Well good for you. 95% of the work is already done and you added some polish on top of it. Without knowing mathematics you can't even make the robots accommodate V2 of the product which is an inch wider.
>>51249692
"worth" and "worthwhile" are different words even if they sound similar. As is "horse" and "hoarse"
>>51249874
>I've been working as a developer for 3 years, and programming for 6.
I've been a professional software engineer for 17 years and you are correct.
I'd say that something like 10% of all software programming jobs involve any degree of advanced mathematics. Those are primarily jobs where you're working with graphs, probabilities, or modeling (e.g. financial projections).
The vast, vast majority of software jobs vary from dirt simple scripting of tasks to moderately complex algorithms. In general, a very strong grasp of the platform, libraries, and tools is far more important than actual knowledge of CS theory (beyond the basics) and mathematics.
Also, consider this: if your choice is between breezing through the day in a light, fun, well-documented hipster languages, versus busting your fucking ass trying to debug some godawful multithreaded server deadlock bug, for around the same pay, which are you going to choose?
There's a tendency among nerds to pride themselves on the perceived "difficulty" of their work, regardless of the degree of actual personal satisfaction they derive from it, and especially regardless of how much they are actually valued for doing it.
In my experience, the guy who spent twenty minutes in { trendy hipster language } making a pretty map of the company's network requests will get far more oohs, ahs, and accolades from management than the guy who worked sixty hours last week preventing an obscure bug in the network code from taking down the whole system.
>>51249874
>Not once did I ever need any mathematical knowledge which was beyond what a quick google search could give me.
To be fair, odds are that you're a CRUD-software writing API monkey. Try writing an OpenGL physics waving flag mesh demo with ray tracing, and you'll realize the limitations of what you can do w/o calculus.
>>51249896
>You're going to give an example like making automated stations on an assembly line communicate to reduce waiting time.
No, I'm not going to give an example at all, because if you can't immediately see my meaning then your head is so far up your ass that there's honestly no point in conversing with you.
Again, there is an ENORMOUS amount of value to be created in the world with something as dumb as VBA + Access.
If you actually talked to real humans who worked real jobs, you'd probably hear about some of these opportunities.
>>51249974
>busting your fucking ass trying to debug some godawful multithreaded server deadlock bug
>for around the same pay
Yeah, no.
>>51249999
What?
> I'm a programmer
> Didn't major or minor in Mathematics
What's the point of knowing to program if you're just going to implement trivial solutions other people have already solved?
>>51249681
First year CS Student detected
>>51250009
>2015
>thinking your average web developer is on the par in salary with people debugging automated trading software
>>51241265
you use it or lose it anon
>>51241310
The hell does this "t." thing mean??
>>51249874
>Why is it always the first year CS students that are the biggest elitists?
CS involves learning a lot of archaic shit, like ASM, C, Haskell, UNIX. That's not to say it's a bad curriculum, but it's the STEM equivalent of being a philosophy major. Interesting, but useless.
Anyways, CS Students get it in their head that all of this old shit and the importance of "beautiful code" matters in the real world when it's quite the opposite.
>>51250034
> > Didn't major or minor in Mathematics
I'm the guy who minored in mathematics. My advice to you is to minor in something else. Business would be a great option.
inb4 hurr wut they're all dum
Yeah, learn to speak the language of the plebs. Learn how a business is run, basic accounting, etc. You'll be in a far, FAR better position to work directly with companies and run your own software shop.
If you want to go the other way, you shouldn't even be doing CS. The only exceptions are if you're going to a school with an absolute TOP-NOTCH, highly respected, rigorous CS program. Otherwise, get a degree in mathematics instead. The software engineering side of things is honestly barely even taught in school. You learn more about real-world software engineering in your first year as a professional than you ever learned in school.
>What's the point of knowing to program if you're just going to implement trivial solutions other people have already solved?
Because you're creating value and making other people's lives better.
>>51250053
> >thinking your average web developer is on the par in salary with people debugging automated trading software
You're just constructing a strawman argument.
Tell you what, come up with some numbers for me. How many "web developer" positions are there at, say, $90k per year. Now, how many HFT programming positions are there at, say, $350k?
Now compare the number of $90k web dev positions to the number of $105k C programming positions, writing, for example, device drivers.
Now, finally, consider how you'll place in the field of web developers versus the field of HFT pros, or even the lowly driver guys.
>>51250105
Not the guy you replied to, but I believe it's the Finnish version of "Br,", except it's just "r,".
Freshly gratuated Msc in CS.
During 3.5 engineer period finished: 2years of algebra, 1y of calculus, 1y of statistic, 0.5y of discrete mathematics, 1y of physics, and dozen of other semi related courses like optimization theory or numerical methods.
Passed everything.
After all these years I don't remember how to solve a simple integral.
Don't give a shit and succesfully work in industry anyway.
>>51249993
>ENORMOUS amount of value
I have never said it's not valuable. But how valuable something is, is absolutely not an indicator of how skilled or qualified something is. Janitors on an oil rig earn more than you.
I have literally smashed a plaster wall with a chair and put a giant fan in the hole to improve cooling in the server room of one company. It increased efficiency and reduced downtime for an estimated "value" of 250,000$ a year.
>>51250140
>How many "web developer" positions are there at, say, $90k per year. Now, how many HFT programming positions are there at, say, $350k?
Or better yet, how many kids are making Nike shoes with their own hands for $90 a year? U wot m8.
>Now compare the number of $90k web dev positions to the number of $105k C programming positions, writing, for example, device drivers
I love it how you use exact numbers instead of ranges. You definitely know your shit.
>consider how you'll place in the field of web developers versus the field of HFT pros, or even the lowly driver guys.
This is relevant to the argument because... ?
>>51249153
wew lad
>>51249979
Well, that's where the money and the jobs are. Only one percent of the developers will be doing some fancy ass pointless computer graphics shit. The rest will just spend their lives developing enterprise software for businesses. And guess what, that 1% working on mathematical stuff will be making the same money I'm making in my bulge bracket bank. Doesn't make maths any more relevant to programmers.
>>51241193
thanks anon
