I'm having trouble at work with Engineers 'improving' things while making them worse.
I'm just a grunt so they don't really think we know what we're doing.
Talking does nothing. I want to write some sort of proposal document that will be taken seriously, with a list of the problems, and how to feasibly(financially/time) fix them.
Is there some sort of generic Engineering proposal(Purpose, Scope, Cost etc) template to follow?
Anyone else have any experience trying to /diy/ at work and improving things? I figure this is the best place to ask, since there's prob a few Engineers or at least Tradesman lurking here that have dealt with it. don't think it'd fly in /sci/
>>898151
I'll jut tell you my experience as a process operator at my plant. They do not care what you think and they think you're just trying to get out of doing your job. They will tell you to just try it out and no matter what they say they will not change it.
>>898151
If you decide to make said document, do not, in any case, hand it over to the engineers. as >>898164 said, they don't give a shit. Tell the people above them who care about the money where they could save. You might want to read up on some papers about kaizen and continuous improvement, maybe even six sigma. Refer to those and the managers will get instant boners. (Source: college student with engineering bachelor and business master.)
>>898167
And by the way, some context of your company might help. In the end the problem and its solution lie in politics, not in how bad the actual problems are or how genious your solution to them is.
>>898151
There are reasons why they're ruining your things and there's a chance that the changes are results of long discussions, involving lots of people from engineering and management. If that's the case, it's just natural that one man's bitching gets ignored.
Find out why they're changing things and why they chose their current approach instead of something better. When you know that, you have much better chances of avoiding any obvious reasons (other than laziness, inertia, lack of resources, ...) for getting your proposal shot down.
IMO the format of the proposal isn't that important, as long as it's clearly written, gives sufficient justifications and isn't overly long. If the last is difficult to achieve, start with a shortish summary. It is also important who you give it. Personality is often much more important than position.
>>898167
>Refer to those and the managers will get instant boners.
That sure was optimistic.
Thanks.
>>898164
>>898167
Yeah. I've have had the whole 'gud idea anon thanks 4 the feedback' fodder.
>>898193
The had a problem.
They added fixes to the things causing the problems. However all their fixes simply caused the problem to happen again, but now due to their fixes.
So they just spent money on nothing while making Operators' jobs harder.
It's just not asking the Operators about what they're going to do and if it'll work. They spend money on equipment and solutions that Engineers think are great and work on paper. But when implemented don't due to simplest of reasons that any Grunt would have told them would have happened.
>>898429
Welcome to life. Every company is like this.
If you don't like your job much, I suggest documenting the changes, the recommendations, and who you gave it to. Make sure it gets on file in some company department or other. Then, when it breaks and insurance investigates, they'll lose their big payout because there's a record of the problem being ignored. Then you get to be smug and say "I told you so." You also get to be unemployed, but it may be worth it.
If you DO like your job though, shut up and deal with it. You get (presumably) paid by the hour. There is nothing you can do from the bottom of the ladder that will overcome workplace politics.
>>898167
>You might want to read up on some papers about kaizen and continuous improvement, maybe even six sigma.
Lol. Go jump in a fire.
>>898167
>Source: college student
double LLOOLL
If OP's company has a continuous improvement program in place, then they're not going to change anything because doing so would wreck the continuous improvement program. If they don't have a CI program in place, they won't care and OP will sound like a moron that just spouts off buzzwords (because that's exactly what he would be).
The reason why OP's life sucks is because the company's priority is not to make his life better. Companies are concerned about cost, product quality, safety regulations, etc. As far as they're concerned, OP is a replaceable cog that they pay $10/hour.
To OP- I'm not trying to be a dick, but that's the reality. Be aware that the company is not necessarily trying to achieve what you think they're trying to achieve. You might think that the purpose of the new process is to solve problem X, but the reality might be that the new process is an attempt to address problems X, Y, and Z, and at the same time comply with new OSHA regulations, and the new solution has already blown through it's budget $100,000 ago.
This isn't meant to discourage you, it's meant to give you a better appreciation for what's going through your manager's head.
If you gave us more specifics about what the problems are at your workplace, and what you propose to solve them, then we could give more specific feedback about how to approach the issue. For example, recommending a product improvement should be handled very differently from addressing a safety issue.
This thread is actually quite... good
Your best option is to build rapport with an engineer. Or even better, your manager.
Your goal here is to build up trust with this person and demonstrate that you are:
>a go-getter
>smart
>considerate
>trustworthy
>out to make things better for the company
Once you've done that, you need to start talking to this person about the things you would like to see changed. Start with one thing that will DIRECTLY improve the company's profit margin. They don't care about you or the other operators unless it's a gross safety violation.
Here's the tricky part: you can't just tell this person the solution. They don't want to hear it from you. They need to take ownership of the idea. Basically, you need to make it sound like their idea. Once you accomplish this, they will attempt to change it.
Once you have successfully completed the above steps, wait a month and try again. After doing this a couple times you can start to be a LITTLE more straight forward (depends on the person though, use discretion).
I'm an engineer. I've worked in large companies where no one gives a fuck and I've worked in small companies where some fucks are given. I've also been on the other end, where technicians are talking to me and giving me suggestions. If they aren't dumb, I would actually attempt to implement them to the best of my ability.
Some engineers and managers understand the value of an experienced and smart operator or technician. Many do not.
TL;DR telling people who [think they] are smarter than you how to do shit will only rustle jimmies.
>>898576
Yeah pretty much what this guy said. It's kind of fucked up, but line workers that even come up and talk to the engineers at my workplace get laughed at (not to their face of course; we'll pretend to appreciate the feedback and say we'll consider it, but we won't).
>>898581
Oops, one more thing:
To do what I suggested successfully without shitting on your reputation you CANNOT say anything along the lines of
>I told you so
>see, I'm smart!
>it's ok, I'll let you take the credit for this one
>what, I don't get a 'thank you'
In other words, you have to let the person doing your bidding take the credit. If they are smart people, they will recognize your contribution. If they are not, then just be glad they listened to you and that your life is a little better.
Don't be a smug asshole.
>>898576
>To OP- I'm not trying to be a dick, but that's the reality. Be aware that the company is not necessarily trying to achieve what you think they're trying to achieve. You might think that the purpose of the new process is to solve problem X, but the reality might be that the new process is an attempt to address problems X, Y, and Z, and at the same time comply with new OSHA regulations, and the new solution has already blown through it's budget $100,000 ago.
Something else to think about is that if OP has a problem with his little slice of the production floor, and he has to deal with that problem all day every day, then in OP's mind this is the single greatest problem facing the company.
But that's usually not the case.
>>898584
Op might also want to move on from the company if they are too shitty. Shitty managers work for shitty companies and they're gonna shit.
>>898579
This thread is shot. OP is just whining about having to disable the pesky hand guards that get in his way or some stupid shit. Hence why we have no idea why he's bitching and we can't offer any advice or explain why he needs to walk 100m from the barrels of kerosene to smoke.
>>898151
Engineer here. There is no "generic Engineering proposal template" unless your company mandates one, and it probably doesn't.
> how to feasibly(financially/time) fix them.
Keep in mind that most engineers deal with purely technical problems unless they've moved up to more of a management position. If you gave me a document full of "We can do this in X hours using Y dollars of equipment" I'd probably ignore it. I studied circuits, not business management. I'm not very qualified to assess the financial feasibility of a project, and I can't take time away from my own deadlines to do something that isn't my job.
> with a list of the problems
So are there specific things that aren't working properly? What you need to do is write a document describing the problem as thoroughly and technically as possible so that an engineer can figure out how to fix it. You don't need to follow a format like you're talking to a robot, just provide as much detail as possible.
What I hate reading:
> The burner is acting strange now.
What I love reading:
> I can't get burner#4 to start up in the morning without resetting the entire system at the circuit breaker. It's been like this since the upgrades were done on Oct 20th. Normally when I start the burner I hear relays clicking in the Honeywell RM7800L1012, but that isn't happening until after the complete restart. When I look at the Honeywell controller's readout it says "SEG-Override-92". I've also noticed that some wires aren't connected to anything. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be like that. I've attached a photo.
>>898597
>> I can't get burner#4 to start up in the morning without resetting the entire system at the circuit breaker. It's been like this since the upgrades were done on Oct 20th. Normally when I start the burner I hear relays clicking in the Honeywell RM7800L1012, but that isn't happening until after the complete restart. When I look at the Honeywell controller's readout it says "SEG-Override-92". I've also noticed that some wires aren't connected to anything. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be like that. I've attached a photo.
Excuse me while I go change my underwear.
Has this actually happened to you? I don't even get this from my field technicians. It's more like:
>errr it's not working, can you log in remotely and fix the software?
NO. It isn't fucking software, you lazy rube. Tested fine at the factory, now fuck off.
>all dis assumptions of 'this is what real world is like mannnn' when I just asked if there was a Template or standard proposal form.
plz guys.
Though thankfully it's being attached relevant advices
>>898554
Not necessarily equipment breaking but possibly Workers too.
The thing with 'shut up and deal' is that you need to implement your own little fixes within their rules/regulations etc. And just not tell anyone.
>>898167
>You might want to read up on some papers about kaizen and continuous improvement, maybe even six sigma.
>implying the methods of Top Tier companies that hire the best, and brightest apply to other companies
>falling for the marketing and sharks making money milking companies with 'Six Sigma/Lean' self help trash
Plz
>>898581
>>898584
This is good advice for ne1 else reading.
Though not really relevant to me.
I'm just getting sick of talking about easy to implement fixes again and again being told it's good and it going nowhere using this method.
Hence the written submission and it getting on file like:>>898554
>>898586
It is when the problems the workers suffer with everyday break down morale, slow production process and cause them to miss ship dates. While they search fruitless for what's causing it because they don't see things like a Worker.
>>898592
>no jerbs anywhere
>>898597
That report something you'd receive from a Millwright/Electrician or foreman.
Most grunts would never send you that. Since 99% of grunts just don't give a fuck to learn the processes/equipment and just put in their 9-9 and take their extra breaks.
Leaving technical notes like that sometimes causes Engineering to ignore them, if they can't replicate the results.
They'll come in and ask. Poke around, not be able to observer or replicate it and leave.
Then 3am on a Sunday night it's time to call in an Electrician for 10 minutes while paying a fortune.
Like when you go the Doctor with symptoms, get to his office and they're gone, get home and they're back.
>>898151
I worked as a machinist few years back for a small shop. We machined engine heads for Mack trucks, and as usual, custom made tooling was needed. I eventually promoted to the tooling coordinator.
Many times I found custom tools, designed by our retard engineer, to be incorrect, and had to adjust/modify the blueprints for the tools. Mind you, I jad no degree in engineering and was self taught in blueprints. How did I resolve these issues? Well, since engineers are never wrong, I went straight to the assholes boss. Guess what...engineers are wrong a lot more than they think.
Good luck OP. Engis are a pompous, arrogant, bunch. I feels for you.
>>898604
I feel you on that. The engineers at my place are pretty retarded as well.
While you probably think you know what you're talking about, there's probably a lot of other factors that went into what the Engineers are doing that are above your head. And even if your idea is better, no one is going to listen to a button pusher over an engineer.
>>898794
Who would know about some machine that they are around 40 hours a week? Oh yeah the engineer who plays with it for an hour or two and says "it's ready to go!"
Engineerfag here. What most of you are describing is the stereotypical (and very common) cubicle dwelling engineer. As others have mentioned you need to get their confidence if you want them to listen. Ask them why they're making the changes and tell them you just want to help with their projects.
Remind them a few times, they may be busy and just forget if they don't write it down. If they don't want to listen after a 2-3 times reminding them, then fuck it, it's a lost cause. Some engineers are just dicks.
>>898798
Here's a counterexample. I worked in a steel mill for a bit as a maintenance engineer. We had a problem with one of our tandem mill's feed reels. The bolts for the mandrel housing would just keep fucking popping off. We had no idea why. Then one day when we were going over there to take some measurements on the bolts, we noticed that the operator who was loading a coil of steel onto the reel heads expanded the reel to hold the coil, then fucking rammed the vertical adjustment on the reel loading mechanism up, and we could see the mandrel housings come up 1/8 of an inch when he did that, pulling against the bolts. When we asked him about why he does that when loading every coil, he said it helps prevent the coil from slipping on the reel (which is bullshit after we tested it out; nobody had replaced the grip plates on the mandrels for a while). What he didn't realize was that he had been contributing to popping the bolt heads off.
But it doesn't stop there. This problem goes deeper; he claimed that he had learned this technique from his supervisor, who does the same thing. So this "fix" for a problem that was incorrectly diagnosed by the operator and his supervisor cost the company $350,000 every time those bolt heads popped off.
So when you think you might have a solution just because you operate a machine for 40 hours a week, you should still probably double-check.
>>898164
>process operator
So like, petrochemical? I'm in your unit right now and I didn't sign in, do something about it.
>>898826
Their both idiots. Do you guys not have mechanics? If I can't diagnose a problem then I'll call a mechanic and when it's fixed I'll ask him what he did so I don't have to call for the same issue. If it does persist then I'll tell them that wasn't a solution to the problem. I wouldn't run my machines if the same issue kept reoccurring unless my supervisor told me to because of insubordination bullshit.
>>898830
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I got the heck out of the steel industry (that shit will kill you) ASAP, and now get to do cushy design work instead.
The time-span between failures was on the order of 4-5 months, so it was kinda hard to track down; we just got lucky to notice that.
OP what job do you have? That would help frame what kind of terminology you should familiarize yourself with to talk to the engineers there.
>>898831
To managements credit they know which operators are likely to be idiot's and are trying to take advantage of downtime.
>>898829
I get paid 21$ an hour to push buttons and tape boxes. I run a few molds, a machine that sprays coating on a product and another that hot stamps foil on things.
>>898596
>having to disable the pesky hand guards that get in his way or some stupid shit.
This triggers me so hard. Fucking normies can't keep their hands out of energized machinery or even follow LOTO and now management has gone crazy installing shields and light curtains around everything.
>mfw I walk into my shift and day shift is elbows deep in a machine that isn't locked out
FUCKING NORMIES THIS ISN'T ROCKET SURGERY.
>>898826
350k for some fastener removal and associated downtime?
I spent a year of my life doing nothing but removing failed fasteners in power plants and mills and not even a 2500MW plant would lose that much in the single 12hr shift it'd take me to drill or EDM to within a 32nd of the minor diameter and chase the threads out.
>>898837
Normie?
You sound like an insufferable twat.
>>898597
>I studied circuits,
omg, you studied on the university of dumbland?, any engineer with some optimization class and a little course in managment can solve administrative problems.
China is a country ruled by engineers.
>>900159
Yeah but your rebuttal makes you sound like a cunt who probably didn't do this shit properly.
Mate don't tell other people their business
>>898601
>>898151
What you're describing isn't an engineering document. It's a business document... specifically, a "business case". They go something like this:
> If we spent $100 and 10 man hours doing XXX, we can change current process to YYY and save $1000 annually.
I'm sure you can find something on Google about this.
I'd hand it to the plant management. They'll give it to engineering for feasibility. If engineers decide it can't be done, they'll come talk to you and you all can discuss it.
> Former engineer, now exec in totally non-engineered stuff
> Never stupid enough to talk down to techs
> They would hook me up with machining on parts for my motorcycles when needed
> They probably still though I was an idiot, and I'm OK with that.
