Krishna.com
Purebhakti.com
vedabase.com
The Eye of Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFyGFAZdWKE
>>17396906
mandatory video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyTwvPKaLJ4
>>17396906
The Hindu scriptures are far superior to the Bible.
Too bad every Hare Krishna I met was either an obnoxious hippie or looked like an insane, nervously-smiling zealot.
dat curry smell though
>>17397288
As a Hare Krsna I concede this can be true
>>17397288
They aren't sincere. It's the Alcaholics Anonymous of cults. Look at what they do versus what others do and think about who would do it. It's one thing to cover yourself in corpse ash cause reasons, it's another to act like a retard at airports so you can get one more retard to help you get more retards.
>>17397540
Have you read any of Srila Prabhupada's or Narayana Maharajas books? If not, how can you criticize the movement?
>>17397549
I know what cults look like and how they run, I know what memes are and how they work even better. ISCKON is the memest of cults throwing out a hail mary pass to the lowest common denominator. I say this having founded my own cultus. You are serving a literal meme that perverts an auspicious avatar of Kali to line the pockets and wet the dicks of those at the top. You are paid in the fruit of bhakti, which should be the most private act one can engage in, and are so high off it all that you either don't notice or like it. You may possibly be dumber than evangelicals and Scientologists put together. Bhakti as your movement practices it is not just the television, but the big bang theory of spirituality. You are being cucked by memes, being cucked by your gurus(who are either just as deluded or see it as I do but stick around to get rich), and cucking the god you love so much by your blindness. Cuckgratulations.
>>17397590
>>17397590
I am not in ISKCON, but I have encountered many sincere individuals in that institution.
>an auspicious avatar of Kali
Not sure who you are referring to here.
>You are paid in the fruit of bhakti, which should be the most private act one can engage in
Bhakti is an intimate practice, but it is a scientific system, as described in works such as Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu by Rupa Goswami.
>Bhakti as your movement practices it is not just the television, but the big bang theory of spirituality
Again, no real argument here.
I find ISKCON's translations a little biased.
Devas = demi-gods?
Bhagavan = Supreme Personality of Godhead?
I mean really? So the Buddha is the Supreme Personality of Godhead too because he is called Bhagavan. (Inb4 the Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu.)
>>17397650
To describe the devas as Gods and Goddesses would be true in a sense, but it would create confusion as within our Vedanta, Krsna is understood to be on a higher platform.
Bhagavan means the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as it refers not to the impersonal aspect of God (such as the Bramhan effulgence) but God as the individual. Thus Prabhupad wanted to make clear that our conception of God was different than the Mayavadi conclusion. And yes, Buddha is an avatar, and could also be called the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
>>17397650
I'm a Shri Vaishnav Brahmin , there's no concept of "Demi Gods" in Vaishnav theology anywhere even close to the Devas's origins.
A demi god would be Half Human by the western definition i assume.
They aren't.
Devas are beings just like Humans and other living things just on a higher horse because their Karma is more good deeds than a human so they ascend to Deva-tva they can fall too.
Bhagvan is the supreme being that's not subject to the laws of the universe and thus the concept/cycle of Karma.
there's no INB4 memeing involved there are 10 major avtars of Vishnu/Narayan the purest/highest form of "GOD almighty" according to Vedas lad and Buddha is one of them.
Superior Godforms comin' through!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UehA0qeqXUI
>>17399238
desu we vaishnavs view you shaivs as degenerate barbarians.
but you'r probably a white hippie who's no concept of what actual hindus are like and how different sects feel about each other.
This comic is kinda like the up down motion of the wheel of karma. Except replace "Technology" with "The ability to manifest desires simultaneously with their arrising."
>>17399253
So what? How can you truly criticize us without criticizing the supreme? You can't rightfully.
It's just like the idea of Hinduism being the only path, it's not really in line with infinity.
Why should pointless cultural taboos and "facts" be revered more than Bhagavan?
I mean Vishnu has all these jewels and his wonderful fuck-palace and all. But can you really improve on life, just by living pleasurably?
My life started to improve after I met the micro-shiva inside myself. And the macro-shiva in all things.
I can't find a better source of waves in my life, than yogic sex. It's a metaphor for the waves of creation that permeate all things. I don't need Vishnu's abode. Just like how Christian heaven is unsuitable for you. Heaven is a state of mind.
Karma is a decent metaphor, but I fear that you guys get too attached to one law of the universe, and not see the other laws. Everything is waves. Within each unit of waves, you can't help but see a shiva lingam. With each segment of or double helix dna, Sits the Shiva Lingam.
If Vishnu is beyond this world, then why does he revel in luxuries that we can appreciate?
I know that when I go beyond the world, my luxuries are downright horrifying to some. I can't say I've ever had "fun" in a sense that can be shared with others.
I just have more fun understanding things than anything else. Shiva is my guru, and so is material life. Why do you beg for a vacation? This is close enough to paradise, for me. And if I end up in Vishnu's abode, I'll beg Vrindavani to send me back to earth to grow more plants. Because they're needed here, just like your soul, and my soul. Imagine how shitty the world would be if all the Vaishnava's left? How poisoned is the world that doesn't worship Shiva? How clean is the Ganges when she flows through the fields that generate only money for the landowner.? How much dirt is Vishnu tossing out, in order to stay pure?
>>17399336
Vaishnavs the actual ones not the pseudo Smartha ones that go with the "Bramha Vishnu Mahesh are the same".
Vaishnavs have an issue with Shavis identifying Shiva as the first/elder of the trinity from which Narayan and Bramha came into being.
We are in the right because your own Shiv Puran says Naryan is the supreme being an shiva one of his many manifestations.
Vishnu is beyond him because he incarnates alone to guide mankind among them, shiva serves him as a servant in the avtar's lifetime e.g hanuman.
>>17399363
Why is it ever flavor of Vaishnav I see speaks with the same self certain authoritativeness of a Christian evangelical?
>>17399369
its hubris we have that in common with the christians, its an actual direction in one of the scriptures
>hubris in being in the service of my lord Narayan is a selfless service to him and one of the many path to salvation to my eternal soul being a part of parmatma in vaikuntha.
>>17399253
Yeah, well aware of that feelpinion, so much for nondualism, eh?
In any case when my instructor returned from India he brought tales of how the local Vaishnavu would often outright refuse him service.
But you're probably right about me being a clueless hippy rather than a dude with serious aspirations.
>>17399363
>Puran
Neat. Now what do the Agamas say, because I can only think of a select handful that are fully agreeable with Vedic thought, let alone derived from it.
>>17397609
Kali Ma is the devourer of time if you ask any of her worshippers, hindu and not. Even girls who know nothing about her except as the "child-killing night mother" they do Bhakti to her, and they see the Ugra(terrible, think ugly) truth.
Her mantras are accessible, her forms limitless, her sacrament common, eye opening, and healing. With a reputation that is far worse to those who have experienced it, just like her.
She brings death to the ever expanding demon Raktabija. She drinks up all the matter from this infinitely respawning badguy who fought like the worst ooze in a vidya(lol) game. This lead to her going crazy, and Shiva turning into a baby, and her love for all things material, stopped her from destroying the universe. This story is cyclical, and most stories were cyclical, because that is the way of the universe. Eventually your Vaishnava maya will end, and you WILL return to Kali-Ma. It's the fate of our universe at some point. We are like Raktabija, just playing vidya games instead of wrecking shit.
Pic related. The only one who IS separate.
Om dhoom dhoom Dhumavati Swaha
>>17399383
the problems between Shaivs and Vaishnavs are quite recent actually , basically Shaiv dynasties were extremist assholes towards us inflicting their shiva on us.
It wasn't always like this.
Shri Vaishnavs don't honour anything but Narayan Panchratra which is very faithful to the Vedic texts.
>>17399363
Well yeah, Shiva's material. He's not older. But waves happened since he happened, without him there is no concept of time, or heat or cold, pain or pleasure. Shiva is all that should be worshiped.
Shiva is the infinite pillar, and theoretical physics is moving closer and closer to potentially new truths about what some call Shiva.
I'm saying that worship of purity leads to elitism and illness,and that Shiva is not really worshipped as he should be. Shiva is the beggar, and the herbal healer, the anti-ruler. His wisdom is needed in this age of pollution. And nobody cares to talk about it with him. It's because their up their asses about genes that LORD SHIVA gave form to. Shiva is everywhere, and when I started asking "distasteful" people things, I learned more. But I didn't see anything without asking Shiva to purify my anger.
This is what happens if you ignore Shiva. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASBeOZlujSw
Without him you can't purify the poisons created by the castes. Created by rich and poor. By language. Some people are meant to live like beasts, learn from them.
>>17399432
>MY FUCKING FACE WHEN I MEET A WHITE AGHORI ON 4CHAN OF ALL PLACES
hmm maybe 4chan is exactly where an aghori will reside.
>that vid
what in the fuck are you implying, Antibiotics aren't as nearly abused as they are in China , retarded commies are using last resort antibiotics on cattle already since 2010.
>>17399452
Why would you make so many of them if you knew that you have all you need?
The herbal healing of the past was the way to go. The forest living that Shiva exemplifies.
That video is about dumping of EXTRA DRUGS that the companies made to turn a bigger profit.
If the CEO's knew that everyone was connected, rich and poor, by the thread of wisdom, they wouldn't do that shit. They wouldn't be able to get away with it.
You who worship purity, claim that you are healing, but it's really really proving to be not so true. Plants grow much better in the presence of dirt. This is a dirty age. Talk to plants.
It's weird as heck that in the USA, weed use is skyrocketing as the diet is more inflammatory. In India, you guys are getting it too, and the cure grows from Shiva, like always.
I'm saying that Vishnu's kingdom was swallowed by the sea, as all kingdoms are eventually. But Plants are forever, if given respect. Shiva is forever is given respect. Love is a two way street, and lots of stuff gives us love, so we must literally return the love of everything in equal measure. Whenever I step in dogshit, I am reminded of the sensation, and the basic chemistry of life, which is actually just as perfect as a yantra.
>>17399221
>A demi god would be Half Human by the western definition i assume.
This is incorrect. It is true the prefix demi- usually means half, but it can also mean "of less than full size/status/rank. Prabhupada translated devas and other celestial races or beings as demigods not to imply they are half human, but to imply they are of a lesser rank than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God and demigods.
>>17399336
>If Vishnu is beyond this world, then why does he revel in luxuries that we can appreciate?
God reciprocates with the moods of his devotees. Krsna in Vrindavana, for example, is in a totally rural and intimate, sweet environment.
>>17399238
There is nothing wrong with worshiping Shiva. If you are sincere, maybe you will be promoted to a Krishna Bhakta in your next life.
>>17399391
According to the Bhagavata Purana, Kali is more interested in the devotees of Krsna than heir own so called devotees.
>>17400128
Are you talking about Jada Bharata? I don't think Kali's actions can be taken to mean she favors Vaishnavas, but she'll certainly protect them. Especially when the transgressors are misusing a yajna in her name to kill people.
>>17400615
>Are you talking about Jada Bharata?
Yes
>I don't think Kali's actions can be taken to mean she favors Vaishnavas
I would disagree. Considering Kali is a servant of Krsna, I would assume she would be more inclined to the devotees of her Ishtadevata than her own followers.
>>17400615
You think the sacrifices are still going on? Anyway, Kalikapurana says human sacrifice is fine provided it's a matter of national security.
>>17400631
Also would like to note that nothing pleases Krsna more than someone who pleases his devotees, e.g. a servant of the servant of the servant
>>17400639
So are the tantriks and saivists and shatkas just barbarians doing it wrong, or venerating Krsna by venerating his devotees? It's hard to tell.
>>17400649
This is something I have considered before. From what I have heard from more advanced devotees, they may be promoted to Krsna Bhakti in their next life. There is an example of a bramhin venerating Lord Shiva for material gain, only to be led to Sanatana Goswami who initiated him into the mahamantra.
>>17400634
Sacrifice means to give away a piece of your own soul
Unless the human or animal is willing and ready to die, it is no sacrifice, just slaughter
>>17400649
Not his devotees, you moon fool, his descendants
>>17400657
>Sacrifice means to give away a piece of your own soul
Not possible.
>>17400664
OK kid, have fun killing animals for, heh, survival
>>17400654
So are you telling me that there's zero percent chance, absolutely no fathomable way, that a Saivist can reach liberation save by promotion in the next life? As in there's no way for a Saivist to do it in their own lifetime? Because again, if we're going to reach into the Puranas, Kalikapurana advocates the use of the five M's for liberation. That's *your* canon, not (as much) mine, mind you.
>>17400657
Jai Ma :^3
>>17400672
>So are you telling me that there's zero percent chance, absolutely no fathomable way, that a Saivist can reach liberation save by promotion in the next life?
First of all there are different kinds of liberation. Perhaps a Shaivite could be promoted to Shivaloka, although this is not my field of expertise.
>Kalikapurana advocates the use of the five M's for liberation
That is one path among innumerable others. If it works for some, that's fine by me, but it is not a part of our Gaudiya Vedanta.
>>17400663
I saw a Krsnaite elsewhere saying Shiva was Krsna's greatest devotee, pardon me.
>>17400682
Yes, this is true. In fact, Shiva reciprocates with Krishna in the form of a cowherd girl known as gopeshwar Mahadeva.
>>17400681
>If it works for some, that's fine
Then why is tantra generally forbidden as impure? Restriction due to profanity does not sounds 'fine' to me.
>>17400687
So, then it stands to reason I'm pleasing Krsna by devoting myself to his greatest devotee?
>>17400687
So.. He transformed into a girl, just to please Shive?
>>17400704
Don't speak to me as if I were one of your beastly pupils
>>17400704
>Then why is tantra generally forbidden as impure?
Who is forbidding it? I would be inclined to consider it too difficult to practice in Kali Yuga (as compared to the sublime and straightforward path of Bhakti Yoga), but you are free to practice what you like.
>>17400704
>So, then it stands to reason I'm pleasing Krsna by devoting myself to his greatest devotee?
You are getting some merit, no doubt.
>>17400631
Mmmm, I could understand this view. My own thought is that those who directly supplicate a person will obtain more compassion from that person than those beseeching another, even if the direct approach isn't the "best" in that person's mind. In other words, yes these people are devotees of my Lord, and I would prefer that, but these other people are directly asking ME for help.
>>17400634
Human sacrifices? I wouldn't think so, but there is much to this world and I wouldn't put it past humanity.
>Kalikapurana says human sacrifice is fine provided it's a matter of national security.
I was completely unaware of this. Is there a criteria for who is sacrificed?
>>17400649
Doesn't Krishna call this indirect devotion?
>Bg 9.23 — Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way.
>Bg 9.24 — I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down.
I want to get into this next post, because I think "wrong way" can be taken incorrectly, and how the verse actually relates to demigods I feel is more complicated than just "they're doing it wrong."
>>17400657
Animal sacrifice in Vedic lore was supposed to have a "seal of success" in the animal's soul rising to take a human birth next life. I hadn't known human sacrifice was ever authorized til now.
>>17400672
I can't imagine why a Saivist would be blocked from liberation into the Brahmajyoti, or if they are personalist from reaching the abode of Suddha-Siva. This wouldn't reach what Vaishnavas consider the most intimate forms of liberation, such as admittance into Vrindavan-dhama, but then what Saivist is trying to obtain that?
>>17400710
>all this salt over a question
>>17400716
According to legend, widespread animal sacrifice gave rise to terrible poison, which rotted out of the animal's abandoned bodies,
And so Shiva took it upon himself, the great lord he was, to devour the rotting carcasses himself, to save the land from its vile taste,
And from that he was transformed into, they say, a lion with the head of a woman, a sphinx, who some say conquered Sumeria all by himself
>>17400716
>Is there a criteria for who is sacrificed
Should be a genuine devotee of Her cult, and the prep actually takes months of ritual, other than that I haven't actually gone through Puranas in forever which I need to fix.
>more complicated
Prabhupada gives a few lectures where he touches on this and I think he deals with the problem much more gently than most of his students.
Your last bit actually makes sense to my mind but then you see all this "maybe in a next life" shit.
>>17400734
>And from that he was transformed into, they say, a lion with the head of a woman, a sphinx, who some say conquered Sumeria all by himself
Citation fuckin' wanted badly.
>>17400737
There is a book called Purushamedha which deals with the darker side of Gaudiya Vaishnavism (such as human sacrifice). Definitely recommended if you are into that sort of thing
>>17400746
See Dark Souls 2 for more details
>>17400747
>human sacrifice
You mean suicide?
>inb4 it's only ok to kill other people
>>17400754
Both, actually. See Chota Haridasa
>>17400747
No, I know there's Vedic and Puranic tantra, I'm just not interested in it. The Agamas always resonated with me more at some level. I just don't get "last stop on the divinity train" vibes from Vishnu/Krsna like I do with Shiva/Shakti.
>>17400704
>why is tantra generally forbidden as impure?
It is not the recommended process for this age. Apart from that my knowledge of tantra is limited; from what I think I know, I would say it is too easy for tantra to confuse and degenerate into body-centered hedonism.
>I'm pleasing Krsna by devoting myself to his greatest devotee?
Perhaps. Why are you devoting yourself? It is the consciousness that matters over all.
>>17400706
In the case mentioned, no - Shiva was made a gopi to cavort with Krishna. Although Vishnu DID change to a female named Mohini Murti and enticed Shiva to break His meditation and chase after Her.
>>17400716
Back to these two versus, the sanskrit is below.
ye ’py anya-devatā-bhaktā
yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ
te ’pi mām eva kaunteya
yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam
ahaṁ hi sarva-yajñānāṁ
bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca
na tu mām abhijānanti
tattvenātaś cyavanti te
The phrase avidhi-purvakam is where the "wrong way" bit comes from. Purvakam can be translated as preceding/after/following. Avidhi, then, is the contentious "wrong." Avidhi is the negation of vidhi, or rather since nir- means "without", the pretext a- is more a negation of "not" as in Dvaita and Advaita. Vidhi can be translated as regualtion/method/injunction though also fate/providence/creator.
The ultimate point of this ramble is that I feel this phrase "in the wrong way" is not so much a judgement of the properness of their worship, but to show that these people also worship the Supreme, though the way may be seen as less pure or wrong according to your tradition.
The second verse reaffirms this - that there is no sacrifice made that Krishna is not the ultimate enjoyer of. There is no work or worship that can ultimately be said is "against God."
>>17400706
other way around.
but there is a story where vishnu becomes female as well, to trick the demons to give him the elixer of immortality.
shiva saw this (according to the story) and became lustful.. or in love..
>>17400751
>he plays vidya
>>17400760
>Chota Haridasa
Wow, that story's fucked. That's some straight up Job shit, man.
>>17400780
He turned into a Gandharva and sang to Lord Chaitanya by night.
>>17400766
>too easy for tantra to confuse and degenerate into body-centered hedonism.
But Kali is consciousness and all things that please consciousness please Our Mother. (It should be noted I aspire to a lineage a bit ecstatic even for tantriks).
Other than that the point is that there is God in all things, rotting corpse and bleeding woman. The answer's not renunciation because there is no fundamental impurity in the first place.
>Vishnu DID change to a female named Mohini Murti and enticed Shiva to break His meditation
Sounds about right.
Thanks for the breakdown on the sticky bits of translation, I need to get good, the texts I have on hand to learn from are short and narrow in focus.
>>17400801
>Other than that the point is that there is God in all things, rotting corpse and bleeding woman.
Paramatma is in everything, but Bhagavan himself is simultaneously in everything and also without everything (acintya bhedabheda tattva)
>>17400780
>Real Boddhisatvas don't play video games
>>17400815
>Aspiration to Buddhamind
>In the Vedic thread
>>17400809
You get similar sentiments in tantra, though I think they limit the fractionalizing the soul aspect quite a bit, just because it's not Vedic doesn't mean it's not Indic.
The Nath lean on a concept of Sahaja (all tantriks do but I know this take the best) that's a pretty close analog of 'empty' or 'non arisen' and expresses the primal divinity of no-thingness. More analogs of in the Kabbalistic 'Ain'.
>>17400836
Oh, I didn't realize you were a cultist
Do you have any ancient texts you can refer me to? I have a few thousand hours to waste and I want something smart to start with
Video games are such a waste
>>17400780
Chota Haridas is a direct associate of Lord Chaitanya. Other than taking the tale at face value of the strictness of the sannyasi vow, it is VERY difficult to say what Lord Chaitanya was thinking, or what exactly transpired. Narayana Goswami Maharaja spoke on the incident here
http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/mwavs.htm
>Mahaprabhu only pretended to reject Chota Haridasa. Chota Haridasa was His associate. He was liberated. There was actually no offence on his part But Mahaprabhu wanted to teach everyone by this example. He wanted to show that He cannot tolerate this behavior. Even if a married person is lusty, Mahaprabhu cannot tolerate it.
>>17400801
>But Kali is consciousness and all things that please consciousness please Our Mother.
God is in all things, but all things are not God. Vaishnav philosophy is that Brahman is nondual, yet all infinite souls are distinct. Your consciousness and mine are eternally separate, but they are qualitatively exactly the same. In other words, if I ask for water, and you drink it - I won't have my thirst quenched. I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this point.
>The answer's not renunciation
Agreed, in a sense. What should be renounced is the idea of existing separate from Krishna, and the desire to be the central enjoyer. The only reason a devotee rejects something is that it doesn't relate to Krishna, and anything not seen as having a relationship to Krishna means the devotee is still seeing the illusion. But that's OK - we're all working on it.
However, that doesn't mean a devotee should start accepting everything while they still see the illusion. There are lots of things a healthy person can do that a sick person should refrain from doing.
>>17400849
Have you heard of this >>17400747?
Might be interesting for you as well
>>17400801
>But Kali is consciousness and all things that please consciousness please Our Mother.
If taken with the right mindset, right understanding, right visualization, right motive, and with all the mind centered on Her and with your heart and self suffocated in the flames of devotion. Otherwise you're using a religion as an excuse for plain hedonistic acting out.
“If [you] could attain perfection (siddhi) merely by drinking wine, all the wine-bibbing rouges would attain perfection. If mere intercourse… would lead to liberation, all creatures of the world would be liberated…”
Kularnava tantra.
>>17400849
>Brahman is nondual
I cannot fathom how this is compatible with a notion of pure/impure, and that incidental contact corpses or women or wine will impede spiritual progress in any meaningful way.
We probably won't, but I feel like it's a point that needs making. I cannot drink a glass of water to sate your thirst, but I can hand you a glass of water.
I think the fundamental difference between our sects is that tantra tends to see illusion as also inherently pure. Why flee from it? Lord Shiva used it, with the help of Shakti to focus, to forge the universe. It is the source of his sorcery. And that of the Saivist Saddhu. In my mind the Vaishnav is seeking to rip down the veil of illusion, the tantric's getting so close he can see through the weave of the fabric.
mohini vishnu + shiva
>>17396906
It is a pity that religions aren't more united, inter accepted. On the other hand they are. There ARE several convenes. But it is not confessed a lot. Staying in own culture is a good thing. Because that is how it is made. Amongst other things. (open to a response about culture)
Needless to say if it is in a Hindu thread in a way. As it has a lot of that.
>>17400859
I don't disagree. There's a reason the Kaula ritual's redacted.
I would, however, gently imply that proper activation isn't difficult to achieve, otherwise Kalachakra initiations would be handed out publicly, or a Green Tara at your local Dharma Center.
Yes it takes discipline but no more discipline than any other seriously aspiring devotion. I grok that it's not about the act in and of itself, but the apprehension of Godhead within the act.
On the other hand, I bet our resident Aghori may object to the above sentiment.
Also, is that the Avalon translation?
>>17400855
From what I can find, there doesn't seem to be much indicating there was actual human sacrifice being done, and many seem to interpret the ritual as either a description of God (Purusha) sacrificing Himself to create the universe, or a metaphorical treatise on sacrificing the Self.
That said, the Chandogya Upanishad, Satapathaq Brahmana, and Bhagavat Purana all expressly forbid it, so there's reason to think it was actually going on.
>>17400888
It's debatable, but I'm specifically referring to the book by Rudra Das Goswami
>>17400876
>I cannot fathom how this is compatible with a notion of pure/impure
It depends on how "transcendent" your view is. Ultimately, everything is Krishna, there's no such thing as pure/impure. But we aren't on that level, so to act as if we are is to impede our progress toward it.
>incidental contact corpses or women or wine will impede spiritual progress in any meaningful way
Well that's right from the Gita.
> Bg 2.62 — While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.
>Bg 2.63 — From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.
It's all about awareness. What is your consciousness fixed on? If you are fixed on Krishna mind, body, and soul, then no manner of material arrangement is going to cause trouble. But if your consciousness isn't. If the soul puts its self as the center, then the smallest thing, the tiniest distraction can tear it all away.
We spoke of Jada Bharata. How did he come by that body? Because in his previous human life he had come SO CLOSE to liberation, but simply by showing compassion and helping an orphaned fawn live, he fell from his position and had to be reborn. Just one thing - one GOOD act - and he was again attached to Maya and clouded.
>I cannot drink a glass of water to sate your thirst, but I can hand you a glass of water.
Yes, this is bhakti - loving exchanges.
>>17400895
Ahh. I'll try to find it. Any links?
>>17400915
https://martinetpress.wordpress.com/tag/purushamedha/
>>17400915
>Well that's right from the Gita.
Yeah, I just don't see how it's actually compatible with nondualism. Either there's no division of purity and impurity or there is.
>attachment to illusion
But there's no unattachment. The only illusion of impediment is of attachment/unattachment, as Maya's there whether or not we dissociate ourselves from it, which can't even really be done unless you're more Buddhist than Hindi Tantrik in view - Maya's just as much tattva as everything else, substance of mind and devotion included.
>>17400918
I found some excerpts. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but it is Sahajiya teaching, which my parampara does not agree with. For instance:
>see Krsna, what a little rascal! What does he do? He steals food. He kills his uncle Kamsa. He fucks pretty girls. He even fucks the pretty married girls – eh, Radha? Is Krsna worried about offending you? No, so I won’t be afraid to offend you either! Krsna is a fiend. And we need to be fiends, just like him.
I agree with all this except for the last three sentences. Krishna is Krishna, and we are not. We cannot go around killing uncles, stealing, and fucking other people's wives because we are not the Supreme Person. We are not the Central Enjoyer.
>And I tell you the same thing: love Krsna. That’s all that matters. Krsna is really a sociopathic monster, but he loves you. And he will do things to you – horrible things – because he loves you. Krsna is the abusive and jealous boyfriend or girlfriend that you can’t escape. He has your email passwords and your phone contacts and he is watching your every move. You can never get free of Krsna, but you can learn to love Him. When He is hurting you, and beating you until you bleed and are screaming for Him to stop, that is when you need to love Him the most.
This I agree with 100%.
>>17400942
>Either there's no division of purity and impurity or there is.
It's both. And neither. Simultaneously.
>But there's no unattachment.
Why?
>The only illusion of impediment is of attachment/unattachment
The wording here is confusing me. You are saying that idea of attachment/detachment is an illusion that impedes?
>Maya's there whether or not we dissociate ourselves from it
Agreed. The material energy is an eternal aspect of the Absolute Truth. The illusion isn't that it exists, the illusion is that we have anything to do with it.
>>17400987
There are definitely elements of Sahajiya, but I wouldn't dismiss the entire work as such.
>>17401166
Also an amazing story about a Bramhin abused by the British who visualized a purushamedha in his mind. Needles to say, it materialized later in a very real way
>>17400883
>I would, however, gently imply that proper activation isn't difficult to achieve, otherwise Kalachakra initiations would be handed out publicly, or a Green Tara at your local Dharma Center.
But Kalachakra initiations are handed publicly. I have been to one when the Dalai Lama was visiting my country, and I would rather accept the fact of the Second Coming of Christ than the fact that all the people that have been there, kicking and pushing each other, being rude or douches (some guy tried to get beefy at me because I kept looking back, and he thought I was checking his 3dpig disgusting, right in the tent where the mandala was, while I was searching for familiar faces), trying to steal the mandala sand because muh magic sand, are now ready to practice any kind of serious tantric practice, let alone sexual rites. I bet that apart from the monks and academic orientalists no one else even had an idea what is was all about and what it actually meant.
Also, I had a vase empowerment when I was 16 and went to a local Kagyu order. Nothing really interesting happened, because I didn't know what it was (I visited the order not because of any serious commitment, but because Tibet, wow, such mystic, much magic). I was given some text to read in Tibetan, then everyone was told to visualize a Buddha - don't remember which one - then the lama poured water over my head, and it was over. Nothing really changed.
Only five years later, when reading about the Vajrayana I understood what happened, and understood that if I were absolutely in tune - that is, knew what I was reading, had the proper concentration, had the proper devotion toward the Buddhas and the lama (saw him as the Buddha Nature) - the initiation would have had a tremendous impact instead of a little feeling that everything is magical.
>>17401293
Also, some Tibetan Buddhists (I can't remember who, either Jamgon Trongkul or Chogyam Trungpa or Gedun Chopel) have criticized the fact that many lamas liked to roam around Tibet and collect initiations or getting empowerment and yet showing no signs of spiritual progress at all, which seems to boil to the thing that was happening in the GD and happens in every order (people are given imitations willy nilly, because they paid, or just because).
By the way, the tantras weren't treasured so much for the sexual ritual (everyone knew in the middle ages what the tantrikas were doing - see Krishnamishras satire on a Kapalika, Kalhana's political commentary on how the acceptance of tantras brought the downfall of some kings, and Atisha's discontent that monks at Nalanda were engaged in sexual yogas and breaking their vows) but for the mantras. The mantra was the main thing,. And the point of the initiation was the introduction of the mandala and the mantra of the main deity. Personally, I fail to see how knowing the mantra with the guru's approval would differ from simply knowing it. Unless you know how to inflame yourself in prayer, you could repeat it over a million times and get nowhere. The emotions, your devotion, toward the deity is what makes the thing work, not mere repetition.
I don't believe that receiving an initiation means that you are ready for practice. In fact, and it may seem unorthodox, I think in our age initations are just pointless stuff, since no one understands what they are for or has enough ability in devotion, visualization, and concentration to really engage in it and thus get something from it. To use a stupid comparison, for most people it's more like having a parent's permission to do stuff rather than an experience of divine revelation as it should be.
>>17401303
Therefore, I believe initiation means nothing. Back in the old day, it meant something. Nowadays, it's just a pointless ritual that has no meaning for the person receiving it, considering that in the majority of cases, and especially when thousands are present (Kalachakra), no one really knows exactly what is going on. It's like Christian Mass. In its essence, it could be a very powerful experience (you're literally becoming one with Jesus and thus God) but because the majority of the attendants are neither attentive nor emotionally involved in it (don't know how to concentrate, don't know the inner meaning of the ritual, don't know how to get inflamed in prayer, don't know how to feel absolute devotion toward God), they miss it all and go on pretending that they know what Christianity really is and that they are good Christians. The same with tantra.
In short, empowerment and initiation mean nothing in terms of having the capabilities for doing serious tantra these day. Real abilities - concentration, meditation, visualization, right view (why do Buddhist stress so much doing everything for the sake of enlightenment of all? Because it adds an intense meaning to your act, assuming you know how to feel it with your every cell.), and intense devotion - can get you further than any kind of formal initiation.
I'm not denigrating Vajrayana in any way, but I would like to point out that the love for a tradition doesn't mean shutting your eyes to aspects that seem not to work or problematic or devoid of logic.
>>17397288
Im a non spiritual Krishna devotee. I dont actually believe the story in the Gita actually happened, and I don't believe in God. But I follow the word of the Gita.
I agree with you tho.
>>17401293
No way am I reading all that shit. Give me a tl;dr
>>17401756
>Im a non spiritual Krishna devotee
What the fuck? Do you just like the kirtan
How come this guy isn't worshipped more often? He is badass and the main character of the Vedas together with Agni.
>>17402065
Krsna condemned his worship to crush his pride. See the pastime of lifting Govardhan Hill.
>>17402084
Seen. So is he like, grounded until the next manvantara or something?
>>17402326
Or until having 1000 vagina-eyes stops being a bad thing.
Dianetics jr. Much better than krishna..
Dianetics jr. Much better indeed.
Krishna (or Krsna) is so nice to everyone. Women and children, specially the elderly. And he practices his own religion too. Not like Jesus who didn't observe the Sabbath because yo I'm special. Krishna was himself the god but he behaved in an exemplary fashion and even worshiped Shiva out of piety and respect. All of his discourses are clear and did not come in the form of parables. He always says the same teachings and is never ambiguous.
>tfw I'll never worship him because I don't want to be seeing as a deviant hippie
>>17409410
Krishnaites are delusional he's not even mentioned in the Vedas lol! B-but muh Vedic "literatures" include whatever muh sect says it does.
