Hello /x/, something has always bothered me, consider me a skeptic about much of this paranormal stuff as retards and trolls have made it nearly impossible to sift through the shit to find gold.
I ask you to explain what it is you believe and why you believe it and do you have anything concrete to provide to substantiate your beliefs.
I direct your attention to the image I posted. Do people believe this works, why do people believe it works? Why do people believe you can summon anything?
>>17717924
You are no skeptic, just an asshole.
Skeptics try to experience things they doubt firsthand.
>>17717950
I would like to experience this first hand but at the end of the day I don't believe it would happen. Why is me asking for something to substantiate claims makes me an asshole? Because I like some evidence to back things up?
>>17718151
Because you are asking at the wrong place, and you know it.
Say you drive a car. How does the internal combustion engine work? How does it make the car go? Why is the drivetrain important? Chances are, at the basic user level, you don't, unless you are a car junkie.
We are users, not the creators, you should contact your deity of preference to ask those kind of things. We may know how it works, making us engineers, and make guesses on WHY it works based on that, but we didn't make the underlying principle that runs behind it all to KNOW why it does.
>>17718193
So where do I go to learn, Father?
>>17717950
Sitting in a pentagram chanting bullshit won't help anyone because angels and demons aren't real
>Prove me wrong
>>17718193
>How does the internal combustion engine work? How does it make the car go? Why is the drivetrain important?
A certain air/fuel mixture enters the engine and pushes the pistons down with an active force, that force spins a wheel on the back of a motor that is connected to a pump which powers the hydraulic system in the transmission allowing a set of gears to turn inside the transmission that spins the driveshaft which spins a set of gears in the rear of the car that turns two wheels. You can literally watch a video on YOOTOOB and learn this stuff. It is basic mechanical science.
The metaphor you are using is Bullshit. I want supporting testimonies that show that stuff like this exists. Why is that hard? It isn't for any other provable science? I am even willing to go out on a limb yet you refuse to provide me with anything but the same arguments that religious people have used for centuries to justify why they believe.
I would like to learn more, I would but I need more than that if I am going to go out on said limb and try some of this stuff and I was hoping with all the people on /x/ that this wouldn't be hard to find but I guess it is.
How the fuck can someone know the name, domains and technique to summon a non-archangel? Wtf?
Somebody dump summoning pictures.
>>17717924
>summon angel
Stopped reading right there. If you want to summon an angel you're obviously christian for believing in them. Then why apply the methods of pagans? Now THAT'S retarded.
I believe in the paranormal because since I was little I was able to pick out winning lottery tickets from street stands.
It works if I apply a certain method, and it will give me a non top 3 prize most of the time.
I have a bunch of stuffed animals I got from lotteries right here.
Not a big deal but if this is possible, it's not hard to imagine other things are too. But I don't know the exact rules for it. If I did obviously I would pick the top prizes.
But then I read about this and supposedly it would give me bad karma if I really did this, so I actually stopped buying lottery tickets, I don't need bad luck.
I'm just saying this is a base for believing. I'm also a skeptic but I know how to test things with trial and error and I've gotten pretty far with this.
I will not elaborate. If I did it may have unexpected consequences.
>>17718151
>but at the end of the day I don't believe it would happen
This is the main reason. When I picked winning lottery tickets I KNEW there would be one with a prize. Otherwise I wouldn't buy any, I'm not that stupid to waste my money.
>>17718707
How did you do it?
>>17718151
>I would like to experience this first hand but at the end of the day I don't believe it would happen
How is your belief relevant? Not very scientific, is it?
>>17718703
>Stopped reading right there. If you want to summon an angel you're obviously christian for believing in them.
What does belief have to do with it? This is a scientific investigation, yes?
>>17717924
What is sigil I already read something about it but didn't understand it
angels and demons and whatever evocations are manifestations of the summoner's spirit. you arent summoning god damn castiel. what youre doing is exposing and empowering things inside of you.
Do it yourself anon. If you actually think this had a chance of working than do it. I don't and don't care, but you seem curious about it.
>>17718972
Actually, if you get very far, that is far from clear.
>>17718954
The pic in the OP is retarded, at least use an example that shows you have some kind of understanding of the subject. Please.
Angels are from christianity.
Summoning is not something a christian does, it's an occult practice and those are considered "from hell" and sinful. It even says in the bible that magicians and occultists will all burn.
Your pic is mixing conflicting things. You make no sense.
>>17718193
>implying /o/ doesn't know how cars work
>>17718416
ikr
>>17718416
>yet you refuse to provide me with anything but the same arguments that religious people have used for centuries to justify why they believe.
>I would like to learn more, I would but I need more than that if I am going to go out on said limb and try some of this stuff
What's your problem mate? If religious people can do it, why can't you? You're some special snowflake aren't you? Trying to be different.
>>17719072
> If religious people can do it, why can't you? You're some special snowflake aren't you? Trying to be different.
Because ultimately I believe in science, not voodoo. Do you like going out on a limb taking everything you hear at face value?
>>17719033
I din't make the picture, I got it from another thread on another website where someone was talking about how it worked. Well I came to the source to investigate so I could learn exactly what it is, if it works, why it works and so on. It sounded ridiculous to me.
>>17718966
>I don't know, that is why I am here.
>>17718703
i can do that to but its usualy when playing card games for me
>>17717924
Hmm.
I believe existence is infinite.
I believe in precognitive dreams. I used to be scared shitless I was forging memories unconsciously until I got them written down before events actually happened.
I believe that, in general, information sometimes leaks from the future into the past.
I believe that *maybe* there's been a lot more to what we call prehistoric times than what has reached us (but I don't believe in any set specifics for that)
I believe one must exercise intellectual responsibility and not mix /x/ style shit and rational, confirmed shit.
I believe that religious or personality worshipping is humiliating, harmful and disrespectful to oneself.
I believe that a decent basis in general scientific knowledge and critical thinking is very recommendable and almost mandatory.
I believe that idle speculation about whys based on wishful thinking should be left out of public discussion.
-I don't believe in an ultimate entity.
-I think conventional stances on what belief means are overrated.
-I'm willing to try some /x/ stuff before deciding on them.
Why would anyone try that angelic summoning? Well, they probably think it's a good idea and/or that it would help them accomplish something.
Heck, I myself find it tempting even if it's not too much to my tastes.
>>17719033
Syncretism or eclecticism.
And angels aren't just a christian thing.
>>17719822
Like I said, I got it out of another thread because I thought it was interesting. The idea of summoning but it sounds entirely ridiculous.
Magick isn't something that can be proven. Anytime you get a result it is due to something seemingly unrelated.
Let's say I did a spell to get me a car, a few days later a family member buys a new car and offers you the old car either for free or at a huge discount.
That isn't empirically provable.
I wouldn't ever use a sigil (fake angel bullshit from op) from this website, but if you actually delve into the esoteric for example something like Crowley than you might be surprised.
Meditation is pretty much a prerequisite for any magick except for some forms of witchcraft.
It's not all about charms and spells either, you'll find that your perspective in life has changed for the better, and you'll be striving toward some sort of self mastery.
Occultist exist because they find something personally valuable in it. It isn't dogmatic and some occultist are atheist. There's no rules it's just you and your relationship to the universe.
>>17721130
Give me some places to start learning about it then.
TROLL THREAD IGNORE
TROLL THREAD IGNORE
TROLL THREAD IGNORE
>>17721178
google it, this information is everywhere. Nobody is going to spoon-feed you. google sigil magic and psi balls as a starter.
>>17721178
Fuck off
>>17721178
There is a pretty good thread on >>/t/ where this dude posted a torrent with several books about occult-related subjects.
>>17719033
>Angels are from christianity.
Not really.
>Summoning is not something a christian does,
History tells us, yes, it is.
>Your pic is mixing conflicting things.
Not my pic, silly. Think before you comment.
>>17717924
You called for me?
What is it you wish to talk about?
>>17721178
You are in one of them, it's called the internet.
>>17721619
what are we supposed to see ?
>>17721090
It only seems more ridiculous than, say, communion and transubstantiation, because there's less people into it and hasn't been polished for as long.
>>17721130
Pretty much this. Except there are dogmatics too.
>>17721178
Psi balls are pure bait IMHO. Mostly because any "energy model" magic/psi stuff flies straight in the face of scientific knowledge and it's best to avood that.
Chaos and sigils are kinda decent:
Try Phil Hine, Peter Carroll, Austin Osman Spare. Fuck, if you're into comic-books just read PROMETHEA - that's pretty much a magic/occultism crash course entirely made of pretty pictures. Then anything else you fancy.
Why chaos? It's easy, it's cheap, it's contemporary, it doesn't require you to be a firm believer of anything, you can extend it with anything else.
>>17721686
Proof that you're a meaningless worthless piece of shit who better enjoy what's left of your time here because that eternity of being terrorized is just around the corner.
no need to be rude
>>17721856
Don't feed the trolls.
>>17721856
this thread is rude all the way from the OP
Most autistic thread in a while.
>>17717924
I worship bliss. Cause whats better than bliss? Experience of fuck tons of bliss lol. You direct my attention to the image. How bout I direct my attention to bliss. :) lol
>>17722050
I beg to differ :<
>>17717924
because people need something to believe in. i personally dont believe in those things myself, but i can understand why people need something to believe in.
>>17722050
>Calling anything you disagree with autistic.
I am trying to be open and willing to learn. But I also like seeing something that substantiates claims. Why is that so bad? Why is it so bad to want to know more?
>>17721694
Are there any good websites out there that are a good place to start? I know /x/ has this stuff, but I am sure there are places on the web that have cataloged information that can simply be read.
>>17721650
You are so super helpful, I am glad you made an appearance in this thread to tell me that priceless information.
>>17721619
Clouds? Hi cloud. I am not cloud.
>>17721326
Thanks, prick.
>>17721340
Thank you for an actual reply, I appreciate it.
>>17721215
>full of shit
I am honestly wanting to know more.
To the front page!
>>17717924
I believe magick can be explained psychologically, whether there are magickal entities, etc. or not, humans can at least definitely fool themselves and others in a way that changes reality. Summoning demons, like prayer or chanting a mantra, forces you to focus on your intent and the mind is made to believe that the method works, so it makes it work. Belief and ritual are important.
>>17724481
I feel a very similar way but so many people swear by it. There has to be something else to it.
>>17724481
>>17724872
Same to you guys, but other people swear by my abilities, and Im left confused. Its what brings me here.
>>17724481
>I believe magick can be explained psychologically
It's a somewhat popular belief.
>Summoning demons,
I'd say that is precisely where the psychological model starts to break down.
>>17718703
Angels predate Christianity.
Angels predate Judaism.
>>17725773
This, remember that.
>>17717924
Friendly reminder that angels got a Job and that job isn't answering your calls it's serving The Lord.
Anything you can summon* is a demon and wants to fuck you up, regardless of what it says; Angels come when they want and when God wants (that is the same since they're faithfull to Him).
*You actually don't summon shit and don't have any power to stop or slow down a demon once it comes: circles are bullshit, abjuration is bullshit, banishing with laughter is bullshit; everything is bullshit and just a trap so you invite demons in your life while still believing you have a sembiance of control. Not so. You're their bitch.
>>17726357
Honorious would beg to differ.
>>17718703
Guide me senpai. I'm in trouble.
Even a small tip will be appreciated.
>>17726403
Honorious was an usefull idiot that used a Pope's name to confuse other usefull idiots. Dee is on the same ship.
>>17726463
Back to the books, pleb!
>>17719076
It looks like santa in his ride giving away presents
>>17726496
Let's hear then. What books? What am i missing? Abramelin the mage? Something something thelema? The book of the 9 angles (not a spelling error)? Something New (like occultus conturbo)? Something Old (like the Sword of Moses)? Something fucking crazy (like Zootheology)?
Make my day punk. Make me change idea about the occult if you think you can. The Lord shields me.
I've explored these ways but now i repented, and i did so because There's Nothing Here. Nothing but the laughter of the Furious Ones.
If my experiences and my suffering at least helps some kid here and makes him or her decide not to give this shit the time of day, i'll have done something good.
>>17726454
Don't hope for things to go your way, then they won't. You have to be certain they will.
>>17717924
Are there anyone here who actually believe the things written in this png?
>>17717924
No such thing as Angels, only angles, which come from stars
>>17726712
Surely, if a punk like me can discover the truth of it, you'll have no trouble at all.
>>17726809
Can you even read?
>>17726841
Sure can. I read two nice accademic papers on the Honorious tradition just recently.
>>17719076
Wow it's the :D emoji we all love
Just be a good person.
>>17726890
Come on, Sigma, why do you even bother with this guy?
>>17726925
Because someone might ask where I read the papers. They were pretty good.
>>17726970
Are you going to spill the beans if I ask?
>>17726985
>>17726417
I didn't realize the depth of the tradition, its influences, or really considered its impact on the Western trad.
>>17717924
>I ask you to explain what it is you believe and why you believe it and do you have anything concrete to provide to substantiate your beliefs.
I should ask, why do you care?
What do you want to get out of it? I would gladly give constructive replies, but only for the right reasons.
And you can forget about "proof". If you need it you're confused. Once you have a goal and choose to achieve it by an unconventional way, you go by willpower, not what someone else tells you.
You believe that you can do it and then you do it.
Do you think Arnold Schwarzenegger asked for "proof" before he started his career?
>Prove me that I will become famous, or I won't do it!
Who thinks like this? If you need someone else to tell you that you will succed, of course you will fail!
>>17718703
Damn... Psychic lottery ticket player and all you've got to show for it are a bunch of dumb stuffed animals? Hahahaha gtfo
>>17718416
Much occultism is not scientific exactly, because science relies on their being a separation between the observer and the observed, and magic takes place at the point where that dichotomy breaks down. Magic is capable of producing real effects in the physical world, but it does so my tapping in to the fundamental unity of all things, rather than trying to isolate as much as possible causes, effects and observers as in mundane science. Because of this it is quite difficult to produce clear cut evidence that magic works to another person, although when you practice it successfully yourself it is you will be convinced. Magic isn't like other sciences for a number of reasons, but the only way you will ever be able to find something that is truly convincing to you will be to actually experience something first hand that is undeniably magical.
Even beyond that, magic grants you a great deal of power, and with out proper control things can go south quickly. You said something along the lines of that you didn't want to just try the ritual you posted because you didn't think it would work. Are you not enough in control of your own mind to put your doubts aside and try it? If you are ready then that is what you should do. If you are not the no amount of verbal argument and testimony is going to convince you. Although, for the record and testimonial, I have summoned and worked with angels on a number of occasion and I will vouch for their reality.
>>17727015
Thanks for the ref., sounds really interesting and rigorous.
Are there pirate copies available? There's no way I'm forking off $90 on a book that isn't freaking *handmade* or chock full of pretty pictures - call me a cheapskate, it's on principle.
Otherwise all I can do is take note and hope to find the book some day down the line... unlikely.
>>17727015
This is an antropological study. That is a document written by researchers about what people believed and why. I assume it also cites sources and that it's generally a good study. However i'm not saying nobody believed he could summon angels. I'm saying the very concept of summoning and generally of magic is a trap, made by demons, because they hate you. I've come to believe this because of a variety of phenomenas that ad far as i know generally occur to everyone that explores the subject: mental health related problems that stem from magical thinking, non provable results that are just enought to convince you and your friends and never enought for anyone else OR to permanently resolve any real problem, eventually obsession or possession of the person doing the exploring or someone close to them.
This eventually happens 100% of the time when people dabble in the occult; that i could tell.
Have you got some alternate interpretation that doesn't revolve around everyone but you being unenlightened?
>>17727095
There are. Might even be in Ape's mega. I haven't looked.
>>17727103
You have no appreciable authority in such matters.
>>17727120
God does.
I just needed to be forgiven.
http://bookzz.org/md5/7F12D214329979F3D4699E676A27EAC0
>>17727103
Of course, because christians NEVER go apeshit crazy.
:rolleyes:
>>17717924
I'm a Muslim and a Believer because God has personally saved my life a few times
Also I found out about devils and they've tried to kill me a few times.. once at school, once at home, and once in an emergency room where they tried to bleed me out
Just pray, God hears and sees all things
You don't need to summon shit or participate in magic of any kind
Devils just want to steal your soul, it's how they power their magic.
>>17727148
I didn't. I turned sane. that also has nothing to do with anything discussed.
The point is that you were convinced by sleight of hand that magical thinking ("my consciousness affects physical things in the world") makes sense. It doesn't, it's a trap.
Some christians many go batshit crazy.
Occultists GO batshit crazy 100% of the time. It's just a question of when: magical thinking was INVENTED to make you batshit crazy.
When you're in, they then proceed to give you exactly as much as needed to keep you hooked, and to convince you that you're being enlightened by what you're doing while actually you're closed in a solipsistic bubble you created yourself and wich is kept sustained by positive feedback.
It's tipical of sins: the act itself makes you feel free but actually the more you indulge in it the more it makes you a slave. It's also a sucker act in wich you give up something infinite (God) in exchange for something not only finite, but banal.
Anything you can do with magic God can do better, and definitelly rather than for a while. He'll just do it in His own time.
Think about it.
Seeking scientific proof of anything based in belief is a fool's errand. Auch proof can always be countered, disproved, acceoted, or rejected simply based on the person you present it to. Belief systems are built for and by the people using them. If it deosnt sit weel with you that you cant prove it, then move along. Fuck knows Yahweh cannot be proven, and people flock to his false idol in droves
>>17727215
What the fuck are you even doing on /x? Evangelizing? Fuck you.
>>17727238
Leaving people to die is about as bad as killing them yourself.
I believe that the real conspiracies are stranger than we could ever imagine and that we will just laugh when someone tries to tell us the truth. Unfortunately for us that makes it easy for it to get lost among the heaps of crap on every conspiracy site.
They're winning.
>>17726712
still here?
>>17727311
I forgot to add, this is why I always play devils advocate and go along with interesting role plays on /x/, you never know which nutters are telling the truth.
>>17727354
Yeah why?
>>17718703
>If you want to summon an angel you're obviously christian for believing in them
How long have you been practicing or were you just born this ignorant?
>>17727397
I'd like to ask you about your experiences, I'm a christian, at least nominally, and contrary to most of this board, my first thought or feelings wasn't precaution or skepticism.
I'm interested in these topics, but also know actually perfoming, for example, OP summoning is an act against God, so what's better than your point of view to tall about them?
hope I explained myself clearly since English isn't my first language
oh, also I find wayore disturbing and terrifying when something inherently bad is disguided as good (like in OP pic) than when something is straight foward like "let's summon Satan" kind of thing
>>17727462
Look, i'll be open: in my experience magic is based on the central lie of magical thinking according to wich your consciousness affects the external world/there is no real separation between the two and everything you perceive depends on you. This is a lie perpetuated even through deliberate misunderstandings of science (the common misunderstandings of the double slit experiment etc) and passed off as philosophy (the secret etc).
Exercising magical thinking means closing yourself in a bubble that can't be broken by failure or contrasting evidence because everything has to be coming "from you" for you to perceive it.
So in short: i believe people interested should read books etc but that they should be carefull not to fall in the trap. To do so, Pray and remember always on WHOSE consciousness the universe is actually based.
>>17727494
Exactly. Remember that we have enemies, the powers and dominations in high places, and that those "people" hate you and would certainly lie to you.
Our war isn't against flesh and blood but against ideas. Some of them infectious.
>>17727574
>so in short
exactly, even when you have faith is easy to get lost, because, as you said, it is a virus that infect your mind, with "what If" thoughts
So, people CAN actually interact or even summon these demons?
>>17727600
If they want to interact with you, YES.
The point is: you have no actual control about how and if this happens because all the techniques that should give you such control are actually based in the lie of magical thinking.
What's more probable however is that they'll just work a lot less and give you a couple of hints so you stay hooked on your own, without having to actually give you anything or interacting with you.
>>17727624
I've always been intrigued by this paranormal interaction. some people I know said they've experienced it, wether with some unknown, ghostly entity or, the least, with undeniably evil entity.
But I havent myself, and WHILE THIS DOESNT MEAN THAT I WANT TO, AT ALL, I don't know, curiosity? makes me feel attracted to know more, so thanks for your answers.
>>17727644
No problem. Just Pray and be carefull.
>>17727574
It is not a lie that your consciousness effects the external world, otherwise how would it be possible for people to intentionally move their physical bodies? The fact is that consciousness exists as something other than a material property of the brain and it has its own dynamics as well. It is true that normal human consciousness is closely identified with its physical body but by extending and exalting ones awareness one can come to identify with material objects, ideas, images of god and all manner of other things.
It is by identifying totally with an object of concentration that our consciousness extends in to that object and thus one can act on it and through it to produce marvelous and subtle effects.
>>17727741
Moving your body is completelly different from magical thinking and you know it.
>>17727750
I don't think it is. Why is it different?
>>17727750
More specifically, how is moving your body not an example of magical thinking? The only normal difference is that moving your body normally works, but if magic did work, which it does, I don't see how they are different.
>>17727407
A christian can't do summonings because then he is an occultist and will go to hell. I think I wrote that quite clearly.
Summoning is for demons. Angels respond to prayer.
But I don't expect a christian summoner to understand this, all those who do it that way are already written up in the book in hell.
>Occultist
>Christian
pick one, trying to "expand" christianity is the work of sinners.
>>17717924
.....Supernatural, anyone? Sam? Dean?
>>17727777
Holy quads confirm my message.
>>17727777
Well said. Talked about this allready.
>>17727775
>>17727767
Because moving yourself is a natural conscious process that starts with neurons in your cortex firing Action Potentials to one another and ends with an elettrochemical message descending through your Piramidal neural pathways (while being self corrected through the Cerebellum and the Nucleouses) and ends to the muscles.
Magical thinking is your imagination convincing you you can do the same with something that's not part of you.
>>17727781
We don't give a shit about that old Ass show.
>>17727811
but it actually works, its not a trick
>>17723643
Look for psipog. It's not online anymore, but you can find it on archive.com.
It has a lot of shit to get you started. Another thing to look at (and this is a completely different model from psipog), is Liber Null, by Peter Carroll. Just because it's a different model doesn't mean it won't or can't work, even together. It's surprising what's compatible after you take a good long look at it.
Also, if people tell you that shit won't work because it flies against science, don't believe them. If things like psi are on a different dimension (whether that dimension is higher or just parallel doesn't matter), our physics doesn't need to apply. Our science is based on our world, not any other.
>>17727818
I believed that too, once. No more.
>>17727059
Tits first, of course.
>>17727842
Maybe you should try it again, I can get it to work pretty consistently. There is also a lot of statistical evidence like this:
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/1998-double-slit-consciousness-experiment.pdf
and
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/1997-correlations-random-binary-sequences-12-year-review.pdf
and a lot else.
Maybe the brain establishes subconscious feedback loops with the environment in order to effect it when you intentionally attempt to identify with an object, but then still the brain is just the vehicle of consciousness not identical with it.
