When I first played Red, I always thought Ice was the second best type with Psychic in first. Why is it now regarded as the worst type?
>>25071639
Ice was nice back then because Blizzard had great accuracy back then
The lack of Steel-type probably helped
>>25071639
fire didn't resist ice and steel wasn't a thing yet. also articuno had 125 special attack back then
1. Steel
2. Stealth Rock
3. Freeze turns are limited
4. Talonflame
>>25071639
Ice only resists Ice type attacks, is weak to stealth rocks, and two of the most common attack types (fire and fighting) as well as the niche steel attacks.
So ice typing is 100% a negative trait, especially when water types, who are defensive juggernauts, all have access to most ice moves.
Even most Ice types have shit abilities:
>snow warning
pointless as hail is the most useless weather condition that literally can be canceled by leftovers without a defense or offense boost like other conditions.
The only thing good about Ice types at all is STAB for Ice attacks. But Only Weavile and Froslass can really take advantage of that with their speed. In the top 150 fastest pokemon, only 3 are ice.
Being ice is suffering, pic related can fix that.
>>25071725
talonflame doesn't even have priority fire moves, wtf?
>>25071728
you still leave it with 4 weaknesses which means it still has very little opportunities to switch in
remove the rock weakness ffs
It was better in gen 1, because steel didn't exist, all of the rock and fighting moves were shit, and nothing bothered to run Fire coverage. Nearly every Ice type was extremely good in competitive play.
>>25071730
Still faster than every ice type, barring Weavile who will probably have more speed investment
>>25071639
Ice is one of the supreme offensive typings, hitting those pesky Dragons and some other useful types like Ground and Flying, and to a slightly less useful extent Grass for super effective damage. It suffers because Ice-type Pokemon themselves aren't always fit to abuse the strength of their attacks, since they tend to be slow defensive types for some reason which is suicide for a type with such poor defensive type matchups. Freeze is also one of the if not the best status, but there is no move that can *reliably* inflict it (Blizzard did have a 30% chance in Gen 1...)
So people just slap Ice moves onto Pokemon capable of learning them (which are plenty), ignore actual Ice-type Pokemon, and call it a day.
>>25071639
Most Ice-types have are slow and have defensively-oriented stats. It only resists itself, and is weak to four common attacking types; Fighting, Rock, Steel, and Fire.
The Ice-types with high speed and attack stats are great.
All it really needs is some resistances other than itself, like Ground and Flying. Maybe remove the Rock weakness.
>>25071763
then the problem is just ice types being slow then you idiot
>>25071777
it doesn't even need the resistances if the mons made have more speed
the rock weakness is the only big thing keep it apart. i mean everytime a shitty ice type comes in, even after you've cleared all the opposing fire and fighting types, it loses 25% of its health for no reason
>>25071722
fire resisted ice just using on charizard and moltres said it was uper effective due to thier flying types. It did neutral damage.
>>25071639
Because Gamefreak went full retard with the type chart and stat distribution of Ice mons thereafter.
>>25071813
wrong
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Fire_%28type%29#Generation_I
notice no ice type
it did super effective damage to charizard and moltres for reals
>>25071798
Wow, you finally did it, you finally identified the one thing holding the defensive-orientated ice types back, congratulations. Just ignore the fact that Talonflame can reliably destroy every ice type in one or two hits, barring Cloyster and Lapras, it's not significant at all
>>25071847
but it can't, well except for abomasnow
the problem isn't talonflame, it's every single fire type since they're all faster
which brings me to slow ice types, that's it
>>25071639
It has five weaknesses and only resists itself
Many Ice-type Pokémon are built to be slow and bulky despite the above
Every Water-type and their mothers know Ice Beam
Ice is a good offensive type, but if you want to use Ice offensively you can pick a Water-type. Ice-type Pokémon, with few exceptions, are shit for the first two reasons.
>>25071876
>It has five weaknesses
four*
>>25071886
Oh, my mistake. Still a shit type, which is a shame since I like a lot of Ice-type Pokémon.
>>25071868
Damn, I really have to spell it out for you, huh... OP asked
>Why is it now regarded as the worst type?
And the guy who this conversation chain links to listed Talonflame. Because Talonflame is the 6th most used pokemon in OU. It is the fastest fire type and can easily destroy most ice types. People will seldom use ice types in a game where the sixth most used pokemon easily destroys it. Talonflame is a valid answer as to why ice types are considered shit
>>25071722
Also, most fighting types sucked and the strongest fighting move was Submission. No one used fighting types because Psychic was so good.
Most Ice Types in Gen-1 were also part water, so Fire Weakness wasn't that much of an issue.
>>25071916
Heatran is also a viable answer since a majority of Ice Types lack movepools capable of dealing with a Fire/Steel like it.
>>25071774
Talking about dragons, even this benefit is diminished because fairies just do the job better.
GF doesn't care about ice types.
>>25071916
>can easily destroy most ice types
i just told you it can't
run the calcs
charizard-x is much better at that
also talonflame is neutral to ice moves
Mamoswine is better than Weavile. Prove me wrong.
>>25071964
You said
>talonflame doesn't even have priority fire moves, wtf?
As if that was a deal breaker, when it doesn't matter since it outspeeds all ice types regardless
Anyways,
>252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Froslass: 626-738 (222.7 - 262.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 470-554 (146.4 - 172.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Regice: 470-554 (137 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 662-782 (235.5 - 278.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
>252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mamoswine: 284-336 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Try not being retarded, it might help figure things out
>>25072002
>CHOICE BAND TALONFLAME
HAHAHAHAHAHAH
>>25071983
Mamo is 2slow
Weavile kills the same things, and base 125 Speed lets it outspeed Tornadus-Therian as well.
Mamoswine isn't particularly bulky either; the same things that kill Weavile are going to do a load of damage to Mamoswine too.
>>25072002
>Choice Band Talonflame
No one uses that anymore.
The standard sets now are Swords Dance (with Sharp Beak), and Specially Defensive.
>>25072009
weavile also has knock off and low kick
>>25071983
Mamoswine is UU weavile is OU
Weavile base attack is only 10 points off mamos so its not missing to much
Weavile has better Special defense and Speed
Stab knock off
And a better move pool
While mamo only got more Hp
Stab Eq
Little more base attack
And Stealth rocks
>>25072016
no one ever used it ever
also why are all of those mons with 0 defense
>>25071639
It's the worst Pokémon type.
There is none.
>>25072016
Even more potent, then
>>25071932
GF doesn't like a lot of types.
>Grass was horrible until Gen VI, where it became marginally less horrible.
>Bug was so broken that they decided to make a whole new type to counter Psychic instead of just fixing the Bug type.
>Poison is STILL garbage in Gen VI.
>>25072028
Because nobody runs ice types defensively for a very good reason...
You'll figure it out eventually
>>25072041
Meanwhile, Water is still getting treated like a King because it's Masuda's Precious Child.
>>25072047
articuno is always run with a bit of defense, just enough to prevent that ko
>>25072020
>weavile is OU
I thought it was BL, did it finally move up?
>>25072041
>Bug was not just useless, but practically unusable in Gen 1 barring maybe Pin Missile on Jolteon as the sole representative of the whole type
>Gen 2 gave it a new offensive application against Dark-types, bumping its SE type coverage up to three. Wait, three? Is that right? Oh yeah, Poison now resists it. Along with half the type chart, among them the other new addition, Steel-type.
>over the years new and better Bug-type monsters and Bug-type moves enter the scene. At least the things are only weak to Flying and Fire. Things are looking up.
>FAIRY RESISTS BUG AHAHAHAHAlso where's my Poison type legendary Pokemon
>>25072121
Isn't Aritcuno PU, NU at highest?
>>25071916
Scizor and Metagross do well against ice types too. They also don't like Mach Punch. Really, when you're weak to two common forms of priority, it's gonna sting. Rock has that problem too, but they have some actual relevant resists.
Ice is fragile. Strong, but easy to shatter. Thematically, it's perfect.
>>25072152
It moved to OU months ago because it can break through TankChomp and Hippowdon
>>25072177
Makes more sense than Rock being an offensive typing, anyway.
>>25072160
>where's my Poison type legendary
Zygarde should have been at least part Poison, and no stupid mechazoid form. The serpent form is cool.
>>25071983
I love both, but personally prefer Mamo as he's my fav mon, but the differences are pretty niche
>STAB Earthquake
>OHKOs defense form Aegislash without worry from Kings Shield
>immune to Thunder Wave
>Freeze Dry with just enough Sp Atk to wreck Gyarados, Swampert, and hurt Rotom W
>Thick Fat is better than Pressure and Pickpocket
>sneaky pebbles
Think of him as either a lead or a smasher of faces, while Weavile is the better late-game cleaner and sweeper.
Ice was good in Gen 1 because every kid had Dragonite in their team, Blizzard was accurate at the time and landing a FRZ was basically the same as a kill
>>25072275
I don't think Poison is a very fitting type for a Pokemon whose job is to protect the ecosystem.
>>25072453
Also didn't Blizzard have a 30% freeze chance?
>>25072479
Good point. Still, it being a Dragon type was pretty stupid. We have enough of those already
