You are doing it wrong.
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It's not "Mary Sue" or not Mary Sue. It's about violating the fucking rules of the universe.
>No training
This is unprecedented. Therefore, a violation. Luke does not perform a Jedi mind trick until his third picture. Anakin is trained from childhood before ever picking up a lightsaber. Etc. What's wrong, why people are upset, has nothing to do with "muh feminism." That's bait. Rule violation is the issue.
>She's perfect
Again: rule violation. Star Wars' whole fucking bread and butter is conflicted individuals. "You wouldn't if she were played as a man" blah blah bullshit. Yes we would. Because it's breaking the law.
Here's thee thing: Rey is not "the new Luke." She's a new thing to SW altogether: she is a Saint of the Church of the Force.
The OT was a tale of the trinity: Father, Son, Holy Force. The battle of who would be the true messiah, the father or the son, powered the entire OT. Resolving with a united trinity: Redeemed father, messiah son, Holy Force over-arching all.
You don't re-make a universe in which the messiah is already come. You populate such a universe with a church, and the new church with priests and saints. Everyone swallowed Max Von Sydow as church priest without batting an eyelash. How can those same fans miss so obviously that Rey is Agnes of the Force?
>Patron Saint of young girls
>Patron Saint of rape survivors
>Patron Saint of chastity
>Patron Saint of the Children of Mary (i.e. Children of Schmi Skywalker)
It's so obvious. Go back and look how many times they gave her a halo. Pic related.
>This is unprecedented. Therefore, a violation.
She almost certainly had some training with Luke. Probably not high level stuff, but she isn't really doing high level stuff in the movie.
The Church has one female saint that actually could fight, and she died very young. Here's to hoping.
Oh look, another fat white guy angry about a woman and a black guy in his SW movie.
>>64197162
If you're not ready to listen to nerds argue over power levels you should probably avoid Star Wars threads and anime discussion
>>64196978
>No training
All this implying in every thread.
She clearly is the mind wiped daughter of Luke Skywalker.
>>64197123
The virtuosity of the analog need not be so precise. No particular emperor has been overlaid with Sheev, for example. No one is claiming, "Sheev was Nero," or "Sheev was Caligula." If anyone Sheev was Julius Caesar, though Julius purchased the praetorian guard, rather than had them all killed.
It's the explanation of Rey that conforms to the facts given in the picture without resorting to off-screen excuses.
>>64197162
The only mention of a black guy is yours, /pol/tard. Your bait stinks like catfish liver.
This is just a theory and make of it what you will, but I am 99% sure that G L. hates Force Awakens with a burning passion. Far more than he's letting on.
Why does she even need to have had training she forgot about? First of all she's a Skywalker and they've always been capable of doing amazing things. Second, the Force is helping her and it can do anything it needs to be able to do for the sake of moving the story along.
Basically, when something doesn't make sense, just think "the Force did it" because the Force DID do it.
>>64196978
Two theories:
1. Rey is actually darth revan and trained under luke before murdering his squad. She then had her memory wiped and was sent to jakku
2. The film is titled "Star Wars The Force Awaken" and not "Star Wars Episode VII The Force Awaken" because it's actually "Star Wars Episode X" and disney is planning a prequel trilogy to this sequel trilogy (X, XI, XII followed by VII, VIII, IX)
>>64197128
This shot in particular, selected by Lucasfilm itself as a promo image, is especially blocked and staged to present Rey as having a halo. It also shows her with the "lamb" of peace (rejection of war, reluctant warrior), with which Agnes is almost always represented.
The term "Mary Sue" originated from Buffy fan fiction.
Fan fic writing young girls would insert their own made up character into the Buffy universe.
This new girl named Mary Sue would be prettier, more popular and stronger than Buffy.
That is literally who Rey is.
>>64197382
If stipulated all to be true, it would still be consistent with Rey being the first saint of the Force church. Saints are required to perform miracles. Her first was the mind trick defeat of Kylo. Then her escape. And so on.
And as for having had training or not - the force vision is so vague, and Maz' recapitulation so obtuse, that it could remain the case that she is Saintly because she was trained, or she was trained /because/ she was already Saintly.
>>64197680
>The term "Mary Sue" originated from Buffy fan fiction.
This had better be bait.
>>64197373
He was very passive aggressive but it's his own damn fault.
>>64198363
George Lucas is living proof that it is possible to hate capitalism, while remaining totally ignorant of capitalism, and still become a billionaire.
Even better- imagine the script he is writing as a for-the-drawer therapy exercise:
EXTERIOR: TANTOOINE. Two suns set on the horizon. A FEMALE IMPERIAL OFFICER WHO LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE KATHLEEN KENNEDY is quartered upon a rack. DARTH VADER, resurrected by Sheev as an evil FORCE GHOST, slowly splays her limbs open with his red LIGHTSABER.
>>64196978
>father, son, holy force
>church
>saint
>messiah
>priest
wtf did I just read
>>64198308
Mary Sue is a Buffy fan fic vampire slayer that is always described by the author as prettier than Buffy, more popular at school than Buffy and a better fighter than Buffy.
>>64199098
Okay good it is just bait.
>>64199158
How is this bait exactly
>>64196978
She's a mystery with a hidden past...
There's just too much we don't know about her to chalk it up to shit like that
>>64199230
because it's true
>>64198876
"San Tekka was a follower of the Church of the Force, This underground faith was made up of loosely affiliated worshipers of the Jedi ideals who steadfastly believed that one day their light would return to the galaxy." - officially canon Visual Dictionary.
pic related.
>>64199230
Mary Sue originated in Star Trek fandom decades before Buffy aired. Googling "Mary Sue" would make this so obvious that I can't believe you're stupid enough to think the term didn't exist until the mid-90s.
So yeah, bait.
>>64199346
>Chain of Wisdom
We D&D now
This is the first genuinely intelligent thread I've ever seen on /TV/.
It's still highly autistic, but regardless. Kudos OP.
>>64199420
OK I read the wiki page and it describes Rey exactly
>>64197253
>Enormous glowing light source directly behind her
>Inconsistent light illuminating her from the left side
But there are m-multiple suns she could have--
>single shadow on her feet and staff coming from behind, only one sun
>staff shadow leading to the right for no reason
>yet, feet shadow going straight on consistent with back light source
>Light on X-wings all coming from front/top
Did this artist even fucking try at all?
>>64196978
>This is unprecedented. Therefore, a violation.
So you're saying that anything not covered in the 13 hours of previous Star Wars movies is not allowed in TFA? Really bro?
>>64199958
Yeah, there's no room for inovation, but if you don't people will claim it's boring and nothing new happened.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
>>64197680
bait but it was from a star trek fanfic in the 70s making fun of all the self-inserts in other fanfics
>>64197391
The opening scrawl says "Episode 7" though.
>>64199958
No, trolltard. I am very clearly offering an explanation for why the rules are being broken:
>Rey is a new type of character. She is a Saint of the Force. There has never been one of these before. This is what one looks like.
Aside from "character" I used only words of two syllables or fewer. Got it now?
I like this thread has turned into Mary Sue 101.
It's quite fitting.
>>64197113
>isn't doing high level stuff in the movie
>force pulls a saber from a great distance
>against another force user that supposedly trained and went toe-to-toe with skywalker
>>64200154
>that guy that wrote his trek fanfiction
horrifying
>>64200442
The saber is linked stronger to her, how can you not get this?
>>64200571
Linked more strongly to some junkyard slut than to its creator's grandson?
>>64197285
>stinks like catfish liver
Is that a Southern phrase or something? I'm from Wisconsin and I've never heard that in my life.
>>64200700
It literally called to exactly her at the castle place...there's some force shit going down. Maybe she's Luke's daughter hmm?
>>64200442
Compared to Yoda pulling a goddamn spaceship outta the swamp its kids stuff, plus Kylo helped unwittingly
>>64197391
>The film is titled "Star Wars The Force Awaken" and not "Star Wars Episode VII The Force Awaken" because it's actually "Star Wars Episode X"
Did you even watch the movie? The opening crawl literally says "episode VII"
If only there were a strong narrative precedent for a 1. young, 2. female, 3. warrior, who 4. was born and raised in obscurity, 5. whose village was attacked and burned by the evil imperial forces, who 6. begged a relative to transport her to the center of action where she could join the battle, who 7. received her martial calling from a vision, who 8. won swift huge military victories, despite 9. having no training, whose military prowess was 10. directed against the incompetent heir to the throne whose four predecessors all died in succession, who is 11. frequently pictured and portrayed as being expert with both staff and sword, and whose military success 12. changed the balance of power in the kingdom.
But who could it possibly be?
>>64200777
Holy trips speak the truth of the seven.
>Han Dies
>Leia hugs Rey and not Chewie
Explain yourselves
>>64200866
Strong womyn don't need no male sentient being.
>>64200803
She was not a warrior you idiot. She was a figurehead and basically a good luck charm for the French. They used her to derive a sense of divine right in beating the English.
She was a tiny, insane girl who said God had told her the French were going to win.
>>64200763
>bring up yoda
everything is small shit compared to him. I don't recall luke being as gifted with the force when he first started training. why is rey above that? why should we accept that rey is naturally talented and don't need no qt mentor to teacher her the way?
fuck a rey. I hope that bitch dies in 8 and finn and poe take over as gay jedi lovers that ass bang their way to defeating the sith.
>>64200923
>Rey was not a warrior you idiot. Rey was a figurehead and basically a good luck charm for the Resistance. They used Rey to derive a sense of divine right in beating the First Order.
>Rey was a tiny girl who said The Force had told her the Resistance were going to win.
>>64200803
>>64200923
Revisionist history, it's not just for SJWs
The answer is so obvious that Rey's dad is Luke and her mom was also a Jedi, giving her the purest Force genetics since Vader. That's why she is able to pick up on it so quickly and without a mentor. There's not going to be much Luke can even teach her, she's already stronger than him. I expect her abandonment issues to push her to the Dark Side. She's a demon, not a saint.
>>64200989
um, what
did that sound smart when you typed it out?
>>64200866
Han was like a father to Rey.
She'll never forget the time she sat next to him in the Falcon..................................................
>>64201023
>mom was also a jedi
spoken like a true fanfict
>>64200926
>why is rey above that?
She probably trained more than him, and she seems more confident than him which helps
>>64196978
So she's basically going to be St. Peter.
>>64201109
>Anakin was literally created by manipulating the Force
>but Rey being strong in the Force and having Jedi parents is fanfic tier
>>64200923
OUTTA MY FUCKING WAY FUCKING HERETIC SHIT
>>64200743
Quit trying to defend an obvious mary sue
You can't characterize her by anything except that shes good at everything and liked by everybody
>>64201222
Its fanfic tier because the movie didnt say anything to indicate it homie.
>>64201222
The only fanfic tier logic is "just close your eyes and believe" is an effective way of teaching yourself how to use the Force
>>64201066
>Order 66 dubs
Checked
She'll never get that time she bypassed the compressor because shes so smart and stronk woman XD back
>>64201257
>stop trying to defend what I don't like and can't describe without memes
You sound assblasted familia, did your girlfriend just dump you or something?
>>64201316
You mean exactly like Luke did in ANH?
>>64200803
>>64201003
>>64201031
>narrative precedent
You may continue your spergtastic replies........
now.
>>64201003
>>64200923
>Revisionist history
Is that what you call semantics? Because Joan of arc took part in battles, wore armor, and it's claimed she even took an arrow. That's more of a warrior then you will ever be.
>>64201349
>Still can't come up with an effective argument
>girlfriends
Hey Reddit!
>>64201409
There was a very clear instruction scene with Ben in the movie, among other things we weren't shown. That was kind of a big plot point.
>>64201433
I'll give you a 'no' and send you on your way you sensationalist moron
>>64201409
Luke got KO'do by sand peoplet and had help from Obi Wan every single step of the way.
If Force Awakens le Stronk Womyin doesn't need help from anybody.
>>64201493
He even had Obi Wan's force ghost helping him in the death star battle.
>>64201522
>Theory is about narrative origins
>spergs try to argue about "muh /real/ Joan of Arc"
>other spergs take the bait
>theory gets buried in troll shit
>>64201493
Also, Luke spent a grand total of two days, max, with Yoda in Empire. The narrative elapsed time in TFA looks to be about two days. Rey receives instruction from the lightsaber, and Obi Wan speaks directly to her. Luke never failed to get stronger when Ben spoke to him as a force ghost. "Run, Luke. Run" saved Luke's life on the death star, and "use the force Luke" empowered him to make the miracle shot with the computer.
I see no problem with Saint Rey.
>>64201706
>Luke spent a grand total of two days, max, with Yoda in Empire
your source on that is....
also, he then gets soundly BTFO by his dad as a consequence of not having trained enough, which.. kind of shits on your argument further
>>64201600
>mfw EP 8 will be a continuation of le stronk womyin adventures
>finn, poe and chewie will be demoted to comical trio why le stronk womyin does everything herself
I bet even the movie poster will show her standing in the foreground with papa skywalker's saber
>>64201448
>he's still using memes as an argument when there's a precedent for Mary Sues in almost every fucking action and fantasy movie in existence
>for some reason he's only assblasted about the woman in Star Wars
>he even posted one in his fucking reaction image
Never change, nerd
>>64201706
>white knight defenders still with their bullshit
I bet this the same knucklehead claiming that her mother is jedi
>>64197250
She was left on jakku when she was like 8. She got that good by training as a fucking toddler? Stupid
>>64201706
>"use the force Luke" empowered him to make the miracle shot
Miracle shot? Luke says right before the battle that it isn't impossibly difficult, that he could hit targets not much larger back home on Tatooine. One of the other pilots nearly made the shot himself, but missed just enough that it exploded on the surface instead.
The challenge was never in making the shot. It was in making the shot after surviving a deadly trench run while being shot at by turrets and TIEs and also doing this before the Death Star had cleared the planet and vaporized rebel command.
Luke's grand use of the force in ANH amounted to nothing more than aiming just a little bit better.
>>64201769
Luke went up against a battle hardened Sith Lord with a clear intention of what to do. He is immensely more powerful than Kylo who was injured and distraught in his fight against Rey, I mean even Finn managed to strike him.
I do agree that she may be too powerful and I think their fight should have ended in a tie, though my biggest problem is her using mind trick so quickly after discovering her force sensitivity. Holding her own against Kylo shouldn't be surprising when we know she's skilled in melee combat.
>>64201769
>your source on that is....
The movie. He leaves for Deghobah straight from the battle of Hoth, at the same time Han, Leia, and co, leave but get stuck in the asteroid worm. While Han is figuring out "this is no asteroid" Luke is crash landing on Degobah. Day one of Luke's training is the day Han decides to fly to Bespin, straight from the asteroid. Day two is the morning after they've arrived at the Cloud City and been tortured all night. Later that day they freeze Han, and Luke is already landed in the cloud city. It actually plays on screen like one long day.
But it's two at most. The point, almost lost, is that Luke's development is the same duration as Rey's, but without instruction, other than from the lightsaber, and from Obi Wan in the vision.
>>64201957
You're being very subjective. We don't exactly know the ability differences between Kylo and Vader. I mean, Kylo pulls off some really difficult shit, like stopping that blaster bolt mid-air and holding it there like it's nothing.
The important thing is that the OT very clearly established that learning the basics of the Force from a mentor for a good amount of time was integral to mastering and channeling it.
Something that TFA abandons with its "just believe" nonsense. They overstepped their bounds with the plot and I find it hard to believe that Kathleen Kennedy or some other cunt didn't try to shoehorn their agenda over following SW sense.
>>64202012
Obi Wan also gives him preliminary training and guidance in ANH.
>>64201948
>without the computer, using the Force instead.
Literally empowered by ghost Obi Wan.
>>64202115
Yes, using the force to do something that was already possible without the force. This isn't some godly, unfathomably powerful feat. This is basic shit.
>>64202099
What happened to Jesus' teenage years? How old was Moses before he was called?
Messiahs grow into their missions. Saints perform miracles as called. Still see no contradiction.
>>64202069
And Vader stop a blaster bolt with his hand. Come on m8 he even worships Vader, it's obvious he's nowhere near his level. His own insecurties is literally spilled out by Rey when she flips his mind invading shit.
And I do agree that Rey learning all that stuff without an actual teacher is a bit much, but Maz does tell her a bunch of stuff as does Han and she obviously realizes something is up in the interrogation scene.
>>64202317
Vader used his robot hand to tank a blaster shot. Nothing crazy about that.
>>64202190
Then why did the computer fail? Why did it even have to be Luke who made the shot? Why were they down to his last three fighters?
What point are you trying to even make? Rey is "too powerful too fast?"
That is because she is a saint.
>>64202317
Shitty substantiation isn't enough for me, they made her a cheap OP character and I could only feel contempt for most of the movie as she did everything possible competently
even Han, always a prideful and stubborn guy, giving her a "wow, what an amazing girl" look when she fixes the Falcon in a way he apparently didn't know
the rest of the movie was milque toast rehash storytelling as well so its kind of at odds with being consistent, and not even in a good way
>>64202412
>Then why did the computer fail?
>>64202412
>Then why did the computer fail?
What do you mean? We don't know if the computer failed. We know the first shot missed. This could have been user error, it could have been the computer was not 100 percent reliable in all instances. But the force isn't 100 percent reliable either. There are plenty of times where Luke fails to properly exercise his powers. There are times where Yoda's powers are also not limitless.
None of this changes the fact that Luke using the force to aim a little better is a really basic power. It's basically just taking the time to focus. It's keeping your eye on the ball. There isn't any crazy power creep in play here like there is with Rey
>Why did it even have to be Luke who made the shot?
It didn't have to be. It was because Luke was the hero of the story and having someone else do it would be lame.
>Why were they down to his last three fighters?
Because everyone else was shot down. Did you not watch the movie?
I like this thread. While I'm not sure things are going to play out this way, it's certainly a good case for why the character starts out as she does.
There is not one correct way to tell a story, despite what many on this board would have you believe.
>>64196978
>Star Wars' whole fucking bread and butter is conflicted individuals
Luke wasn't conflicted until the later movies. As soon as he was freed of his ties to Tatooine by the deaths of his aunt and uncle, he went off to join Obi-Wan without a second thought, and didn't hesitate for a moment in becoming a Rebel and blowing up the Death Star.
>>64202412
>That is because she is a saint.
You know, your dumb ass fan theory doesn't make this shit any better.
This is Star Wars not a fucking Dan Brown novel
>>64202317
Kylo only has 1/4 of Vaders force genetics, diluted by Solo and Padme (retards don't know to make pure force babies).
Too bad Darth Maul never had an army to support him. He would have taken over and killed all these dumb Jedi fags.
>>64202702
>Kylo only has 1/4 of Vaders force genetics, diluted by Solo and Padme (retards don't know to make pure force babies)
That's literally not how the force works
>>64202692
Gaze upon the cancerous face of idiocy that is killing /tv/.
>>64202702
Doesn't work that way m8. That would imply Leia and Luke should be equally strong in the Force, which is obviously not the case.
>>64202774
Compelling post you poop dick
please don't tell me you're also a fan of TFA and are doubling down on retardation
>>64202656
So we agree that Luke was conflicted about leaving Tantooine, that he was conflicted about leaving training to go to Bespin, that he was conflicted about his feelings for his father, conflicted about his feelings for his sister, and /in/ conflict with his father throughout?
Would you summarize the arc of such a character as "conflicted?"
>>64202702
Stars Wars follows Greek mythology in that the most powerful male in the hierarchy always makes a stronger first born son (Kronos->Zeus), who then either overthrows him or is turned mortal.
It has nothing to do with genetics.
>>64202808
I'm a fan of TFA and I'm proclaiming it solely to spite you
>>64202644
Red Leader's targeting computer very clearly indicates a target lock. The whole point was to show the computer would fail. Ben's intervention to use the force as a conveyance of Force power itself is clear to me, and to very many fans who got that Obi Wan's combined voice over in Rey's vision is similar in Force conveyance.
>Because everyone else was shot down.
Almost as if the Force were protecting him.
>>64202929
or maybe Han Solo, who comes in and saves his ass when it was his turn to get shrekt
that's what teamwork is about
>>64200866
Chewie was busy getting Finn some medical help.
Rey wasnt even that bad until the final part where she suddenly could use the force better than Kylo which was fucking stupid
But what really ruined the movie was the obnoxious nigger.
Why
WHY didn't they just let him DIE
Fucking hell I hate niggers kill them all MOONMAN save us from OOGA BOOGA WHERE DA WHITE JEDIS AT
>>64203085
Ape helping ape
Like pottery
The movie is very clear in stating that Rey is unusually gifted with the Force. She has had an "awakening." The saber called to her. Even Kylo Ren states that the "the longer she goes uncaptured, the more dangerous she becomes." If anything, Rey was abandoned by Luke solely because of how powerful she is, and likely figured the rigors of having to survive would keep her mind too shut-in and occupied to call on the powers.
She is not a normal force-sensitive, by any means. There is something dangerous and unusual about her. I would have liked to see her powers blowback on her more often, but no doubt that will happen in later installments.
>>64203143
>Rey wasnt even that bad until the final part where she suddenly could use the force better than Kylo which was fucking stupid
She wasn't shown to be stronger in the force, just beat him in melee combat, which she was shown to be good at.
>But what really ruined the movie was the obnoxious nigger.
Why
WHY didn't they just let him DIE
Fucking hell I hate niggers kill them all MOONMAN save us from OOGA BOOGA WHERE DA WHITE JEDIS AT
Ah, you're just a retard. Very well.
ANAKIN BLEW UP THE FEDERATION SHIP WITHOUT ANY JEDI TRAINING
LUKE BLEW UP THE DEATH STAR WITHOUT HIS TARGETING COMPUTERS BY USING THE FORCE WITHOUT ANY REAL TRAINING
LEIA FIND HER BROTHER AFTER SENSING HIM BEING IN DANGER WITHOUT ANY TRAINING
LUKE FORCE GRABS HIS LIGHTSABER BEFORE TRAINING WITH YODA
>>64203004
It certainly looked to me like the repulsion of Kyle was a team effort. Chewie shoots him in the dick with the force of a four-stormtrooper-killing bolt, Booga hits him in the shoulder, then (Saint) Rey scars his face. Still an objection without an exception to the assertion that Rey is the first saint of the Force.
>>64203255
This too. Kylo was fucked up big time. He just killed his own father, after admitting he was conflicted. He took a gut shot by Chewie. He got clipped and worn down by Finn. He then has to contend with a greatly angered Rey (who already has a lot of talent with her staff, if you recall, beating up those two thugs. Her saber style was heavy on thrusts/pokes) who was beginning to feel the force. No fucking duh he got tooled up.
>>64202929
A target lock at a single moment when flying at high speed. There could be any number of explanations why it didn't connect. The point is that it is clearly established ahead of time that there is nothing impossible about this shot. That one person missed doesn't mean the force is required to make it. Luke used the force to focus his aim, and ensure the hit. This doesn't mean that it was never possible for anyone else.
>Almost as if the Force were protecting him.
Was the force also protecting that random Y-Wing that survived? If so, why? If not, why wasn't he also destroyed? Vader comments that Luke is strong in the force, but this doesn't mean the force is literally deciding to protect Luke. It means that Luke has a natural affinity with the force that makes him naturally better at flying in such a way so as to avoid Vader's targeting lock.
The point is that none of Luke's abilities in ANH stretch credibility. I wouldn't even call them powers, more qualities. Luke uses the force in the same way a rifleman might hold his breath before a taking a shot. Whereas Rey uses several highly specialized powers with zero training. There's no comparison.
>>64203255
They kind of removed the notion of him having been "worn down" when he was easily beating her earlier in their duel and obviously feeding off of his anger and adrenaline.
Then they threw in the "the force is awakening inside me lulz" bit and that removed all shred of doubt that I had with regards to what they were doing. It was time for full hamfist.
>>64202805
So Kylos only source of Force power is Leia, the weak one? That still just proves he has less natural force ability than Vader. Vader could stop a bullet easily, he just never needed to.
>>64203358
Why can't it be both? Why can't he be weak but still have an edge, and then barely lose after the Force does the same shit it always does when it needs an asspull?
>>64203362
Force powers aren't always inherited. That would mean only force sensitives could spawn other force sensitives.
>>64203472
While that's true, Star Wars makes a big point that the Skywalker family is strong in the force. "My father have it, I have it, you have it.."
Rey is from a strong bloodline.
Casual here, what does "Mary Sue" mean?
>>64203431
Because it's cheap and uninteresting. So this is how you want to make your new Star Wars, ok, don't expect people to like your terrible plot.
Rey is going to go down as the least likeable main lead in the saga to date thanks to the fact that they didn't actually make her enjoyable or relatable at all, just an angry girl who can do everything and barely needs any help and picks up on the Force like a cakewalk.
>>64203317
>Vader comments that Luke is strong in the force, but this doesn't mean the force is literally deciding to protect Luke
Do you not understand the notion of the Force being with someone?
>Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
>You mean it controls your actions?
>Partially, but it also obeys your commands.
There's a reason why you need to be clear of mind when using the Force the right way, you're basically harmonizing with it. It's not a god in the image of man, but it is an entity of sorts that ebbs and flows and works through people.
>>64203540
A character who's an insert for the author
>>64196978
>implying Rey isn't Saint Joan of Arc
they even got the same stick
>>64203317
No comparison to the force grab of the lightsaber in the snowman's cave, without any training on how to do that?
>>64203554
>It's bad because so
>It's gonna get worse because I say so
Your argument is hackneyed and uninspired. This is how you want to formulate your thoughts, ok, don't expect people to listen to your terrible criticism.
>>64203583
thanks m9
>>64203591
It need not be a specific saint. Star Wars has always been a pastiche. Like I said about which Roman emperor Palpatine is supposed to represent. In any event:
>>64200803
>>64203561
That's just Obi-Wan using flowery language to describe a vague and difficult to visualize concept. There's no reason to interpret that so literally. There is no indication in the films that Luke or Vader or anyone else is being controlled by the force. They are able to "read" the force, giving them insight. But there is nothing to suggest the force has any actual plans or designs.
>>64203614
You mean the one that happened in the second movie which takes places long after the end of the first movie with the implication that Luke continued training on his own? Yes, there is no comparison between that and Rey uses the entire Jedi playbook, from mind control to levitation, all within a single movie despite having no training at all.
>>64200743
after reading this post multiple times I think I can safely say this post is reddit as fuck go kill yourself
>>64203621
I'm not the only one leveling it. I can spot a generic, lifeless movie when I see it. This hunk of shit will be forgotten as its fickle-minded fanbase moves on to the next Marvelshit iteration or whatever.
>>64203853
>le ebin reddit retort
go play on the freeway
>>64203317
>>64203358
The authorial intent is categorically apart from the directorial execution.
It can be the case, and it probably is, that the intention to portray Rey as a new genus of character in this universe intersects with a rushed and corporate-pressured filming process in which JJ was prepared to concede at every major decision point to the overbearing power of the Mouse.
That so much critical expo had to be shoved off into off-screen "canonical" materials, like that infernal Dictionary shows this to be true.
Rey, while executed on screen as a baffling violation of expectations, can also be interpreted as the character conduit to a startling and fresh avenue of exactly the kind that Riann Johnson should be expected to take.
Given the limited story paths already exhausted in Father Son Succession tales, the expansion into the SW universe of a Holy Republic Church, with its much broader field of possible intrigues, and equally vastly more diverse well of palace and chapel betrayals and moral confusions, is as even an interpretation of Rey as any I've seen.
>>64203905
Not him but redditors have a distinct way of typing familia.
>>64196978She trained under Luke and is the most powerful force user in the galaxy due to her family line but had her memory wiped
/tv/ btfo
i hope Rey gets gang-reyped like Joan of Arc did. Maybe that's why they made Fin black.
>>64203583
I think it's absolutely awful how it's been twisted to mean "character I don't like who's good at things." You can still tell an interesting story about a powerful character. Every protagonist doesn't need to walk the same path.
The key component of a Mary Sue is that they're a self-insert, they obviously don't belong, and they bend the universe to revolve around them. I didn't get any of that from Rey, though I do heartily agree that she could have used a few more daunting obstacles than she was presented with in this movie.
>But all the characters like her, even Han!
Yeah, and Han obviously knows more about her than he's letting on. Han sees something of Luke in her, and Han made the mistake of initially underestimating him all those years ago. But the story doesn't revolve around her. She's really a bit player so far, she doesn't even destroy Starkiller Base.
>>64203979
>as a 6 year old
great
>>64203979
>strong in the force
>already trained
>turns evil
>gets mind wiped
>sees visions of past events and regains control of force powers
>will not be aware of it until later
original story do not steal
>>64203999
>burned at the stake by Kylo in VIII
you now have my attention Disney
>>64203828
>there is no comparison
As there is no comparison between the Messiah, and His Saints. They are different types of personae, with different paths to their respective destinies.
>>64203947
>>64204068
>religious allegory
Oh, boy! Never seen that before.
>>64203828
>he thinks the Force doesn't have a will
You have much to learn.
>>64202012
I just googled how long luke trained with yoda
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:KB:How_Long_did_Luke_Train_with_Yoda_in_3_ABY%3F
youre wrong. luke trained for weeks
>>64204114
Feel free to point to any scene that would indicate the force has a will.
>>64204127
That's what I thought. The pacing felt odd thanks to the movie but it seems implied that he got a healthy dose of training in with Yoda to start him off, still not enough to go toe to toe with Vader.
>>64204145
I dunno, literally miraculously impregnating Anakin's mom so he could follow the prophecy of bringing balance.
>>64202317
vader stopped a blaster bolt by using sith medallions embedded into his suit.
for fucks sake, stop arguing about star wars if you dont know shit about it
>>64204066
Gutsiest move I've ever seen, man.
damn you fucking autists, unbelieveable
>>64204176
I thought he spent much longer on Dagobah. I figured Han, Leia, and company spent months on Cloud City while the Falcon was getting repaired.
>>64204177
The force resulting in a magical impregnation doesn't mean the force intended it to happen. It just means it happened. And this is ignoring the fact that the prequel trilogy is utter shit and substantially changed the nature of the force.
>>64204145
They talk about the will of the Force quite a lot in the prequels. Hate them if you want but they're canon.
The Force isn't a magical sky wizard but it does ebb and flow and shape events. It's a metaphor for how nature always rights itself in the end. No matter how badly the Sith and their fellows want to break the natural order of things they will always be returned to their place in the end.
>>64204281
You're talking about some variation of causality. This doesn't mean the force is some cognizant entity with free agency and active designs that it pursues.
>Trying to find plot holes/inconsistencies in a film that was instantly conceived as being the first in a series of THREE films
The only true way to experience these films will be to watch them back to back to back.Yes, Lord of the Rings was conceived as a trilogy and managed to have stand-out individual films. LotR is significantly more patrician than Star Wars.
>>64204035
>implying Anakin didn't win the Boonta Eve Classic and blow up a fucking space station single handedly at age 9
>>64204383
TPM and ANH are both decent as stand-alone and don't leave huge questions.
>Disney: "you're going to need to give us all your bux before you understand lolz"
No thanks, I'm going to read what the plot of VIII is before I go spend money on it at the theater
>>64204383
>2016
>movies are fucking messes that are horribly dependent on movies that come before or after them
fuck my life. when did movie become installments in a series and not stand-alone experiences?
>>64204127
>>64204176
The Essential Atlas lacks both the Canon badge, and also the canonical cloud tag.
Of Possible Futures is explicitly marked as "legends" which in the Disney universe means retconned.
V's continuity on screen is the final argument. Fans write a short story to explain away the conflicting choices the second unti director made about pacing versus the director's view of the same thing during events that clearly over-lap and interleave?
What was the argument about fanfic again?
>>64204200
best trilogy in existence, they want us to hate rey and we'll get our dose by the end. Humanity is saved.
>>64204420
While he may have been good at piloting, he at least didn't defeat Maul to boot
see how that works
>>64204424
>when did movie become installments in a series and not stand-alone experiences?
Uh...with Star Wars, I think.
>>64204469
eh, not a terrible comparison, but not good. Kylo Ren would get fucked up by Maul, who was at his peak and had extensive palpatine training.
>>64196978
>Luke does not perform a Jedi mind trick until his third picture.
That doesn't mean he couldn't during Empire.
Palpatine didn't use lightning until Jedi either, doesn't mean he couldn't in Empire.
Vader doesn't choke someone out on an entirely different ship until Empire, doesn't mean he couldn't in ANH.
This is basic logic.
>>64201936
False memories
>>64204494
Star Wars was never intended to have sequels.
>>64204063
dude, they basically ripped revan into two characters, storyline goes to rey and design goes to kylo ren.
Why else the fuck would both of those characters have "R"s. Ren, Rey, Revan. fuck dizney
>>64204469
Why is that a problem? What does that have to do with what I said? She's an adult who's clearly adept at defending herself at that point. The argument before was about her hypothetically being an OP child, now you're bringing up her fighting as an adult.
>>64204563
>star maps
>Rakata Prime is inexplicably still canon
BRAVO JJ
>>64204509
That's your conjecture, anon. We can only know what we see.
I see them trying to imply that a girl who was dropped off on a desert planet to fend for herself somehow picked up advanced tech skills, advanced martial art skills, advanced piloting skills, and can learn the Force on a whim.
Main problem I see with regard to Kylo & Rey fighting, is that people assume Kylo would be a seasoned fighter with solid mastery of the Force. This would be the logical decision.
But Abrams set the movie up to indicate time and time again that Kylo is conflicted, not that strong, and his training is incomplete. He starts off strong but as the movie goes on he gets weaker and weaker until a surging Rey can take him down.
This doesn't really make her a Mary Sue. She didn't get dramatically stronger, Kylo just got heavily weakened. Was this a right move in terms of story? No, it was pretty bad.. Kylo should have beaten her and Finn should have saved her. Very odd choice by Abrams to make his villain so weak and lacking in menace.
Let's talk about the crapshoot that is Kylo-Rens powers
>can stop blaster in motion
>can force pull people across rooms
>can seemingly warp to clearings despite injury
>can mind read
>can force push a fully grown adult male and female
and yet somehow
>gets out forced by something below a complete novice
>decides to risk further injury by going melee with an ex-stormtrooper, despite clearly being able to toss him around
>continues the road to possible injury by taking on a gohan-tier of "i dont know my own power" scavenger
and to top it all off
>lets her channel the force, when she and her friends have been helping the resistance destroy an entire world cannon
>when he could have just ran his crossguard across her arms or chest
JJ somehow making less sense in the star wars universe than an agitated/drunken lucas
>>64204574
>her first time ever using a lightsaber
Because fighting with a stick is just like a saber, just like fighting with an axe will render you a masterful fencer
you just introduce more holes
>>64204548
You can't be this stupid
>>64204548
Not by Fox, but Lucas had the whole thing on paper from early on. Anyway, the question was when did the idea of "franchise" begin historically, not intentionally, and I can't think of a "franchise" prior to SW. Godfather, maybe, but it never had a six-picture vision.
Could Phillip Marlowe be considered a "franchise" character? Spade?
I suppose the Gordon and Rodgers cliffhanger series could be considered franchises. In which case, the guy who posed the question is just suffering from "not invented here" syndrome.
>>64204695
No he is entirely right. The first one was made stand alone and they had no idea if it would be a success. It wasn't called Episode IV with the original theatrical run.
>>64204674
>force sensitive
>swing it in a way that doesn't make contact with your body
So difficult, it's a wonder Han didn't lop his hand off on Hoth.
>>64204726
Actually George wanted to call it IV from the outset, you really don't know shit about Star Wars do you?
>>64204695
>You can't be this stupid
Lucas made the first one not expecting people to like it. Even the main actors didn't expect too much. I think the one who is stupid, is you.
>>64204667
He took a bowcaster shot to the guy. The movie repeatedly shows Han using the bowcaster, how it has insane recoil and hits hard. Kylo got it right in the gut. The movie even pans to his bleeding and shows him hitting himself to stay amped up.
Him getting hit by Finn and shit was over the top, but I can see Rey 'at one with the force' being able to rival him.
>>64204748
Han was just using it to cut open a dead animal's belly.
Is this really the extent of your critical thinking capability?
Black is not white, but black is black, etc?
>>64204757
George wanted a lot of things. Doesn't mean shit really. Doesn't change the fact a sequel was an uncertain thing so the first movie had to be a complete story. After it suceeded big time he got his wishes. It was a prime example of "this is a huge story I got, but the studio only wants to finance one."
>>64204667
Can you talk about the Chewie's bowcaster wound that had him bleeding on the ground? And his mental state after killing his father? Do you miss things like that when you watch a movie?
>>64204757
It wasn't called IV till the prequels.
I bet you didn't know what star wars was until TFA trailer came out, jumping on the "muh 90's kid" bandwagon.
>>64204420
Yes, and several characters remarked at how weird it was that he was so skilled. They even took scientific measurements to determine why this seemingly ordinary 9 year old kid could do stuff like that. There was also a prophecy that was discussed at length and predicted that a young child would eventually become the chosen one who was destined to do great things
Nobody cared how extraordinary Rey was. They just all accepted it, or didnt show any feelings towards her irregular powers. Han was suspicious of her, but thats it. There is a very clear lack of explanation of her character and that is what I dont like. Characters should have acknowledged that she was an oddity instead of blindly hailing her as Luke's next apprentice.
>>64204658
The star wars villains have always been the best part of star wars. I hate how there isnt a strong villain anymore. Maybe snoke will turn out to be plagueous or whoever sheevs master was.
>>64204807
So you're just that uncoordinated that you couldn't help but smash your knee when you tried playing baseball for the first time? What makes you think that a lightsaber is that hard to pick up and use? She obviously wasn't a master swordsman and neither was Kylo (who was also wounded, emotional, and DELIBERATELY TRYING NOT TO KILL REY SO HE COULD CONVERT HER), I don't get what you autists are missing about this.
>>64200217
Exactly like that anon said. You're arguing that because Rey is a new type of character, she's breaking the rules.
You can't say you know the rules of the universe. You are just making assumptions based on what you've seen so far.
>>64204801
>>64204858
except for the fact that he was still force tossing people around post injury, and he, a knight of ren and actual adept of the force, was being overridden by a literal who because she heard a rumor of a whisper of a story of how luke and obi-wan used the force, when, before she was force knocked out, she was the complete bitch of Kylo-rens techniques
>>64204873
>Han was suspicious of her
Not so fast, another plot error that made no sense. For whatever reason, Han sucked her dick and was ready to give her a job off after like a day of flying. This from the guy who was notoriously bullheaded, suspicious, prideful, and only ever wanted to rely on Chewie.
Rey defies all!
>>64204520
>This is basic logic.
No, it's just retarded. You argument is that Luke probably could do all these things from the beginning and just chose not to because other characters who aren't even seen in person in the first two movies used an unseen power in the third one.
>>64204873
The treatment of Rey is classic JJ style.
Take a recognizable character/trope (a child with exceptional Force potential) and crank that shit up to 11.
He's doing to Star Wars what he did to Star Trek.
>>64204873
>we shoehorned in reasons why the kid is so OP so that excuses it
Makes sense
>>64204944
This is exactly the problem with the movie as a whole though. The First Order lacks presence, doesn't seem to have a specific goal, and every character from Snoke to Kylo to Hux to Phasma is weak, shallow, or barely there. Starkiller Base doesn't even seem like a primary concern to the very end after it blows up a bunch of planets that aren't introduced.
There is no Tarkin or Vader or sense that the Empire is everywhere & powerful when it comes to the First Order.
>>64196978
Do you have absolutely no life whatsoever outside this board?
This is easily the most pathetic manchild thing I have ever fucking read on this entire website
It's baffling how pathetic you all actually are. Like pitifully pathetic
>>64204964
>So you're just that uncoordinated that you couldn't help but smash your knee when you tried playing baseball for the first time?
No, but I couldn't beat out a major league batter my first time, not even a AAA league batter, at his own game.
>She obviously wasn't a master swordsman and neither was Kylo (who was also wounded, emotional, and DELIBERATELY TRYING NOT TO KILL REY SO HE COULD CONVERT HER), I don't get what you autists are missing about this.
She wasn't a swordsman at all, Kylo had always used a saber. You're not making any sense.
He wasn't a fucking amateur, she was.
This is beyond grasping at straws.
>>64204759
I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
Lucas wanted it to be called IV and fox made him change it. Before a lot of shit got changed to make Fox happy, the entire trilogy was a single script with the death star blowing up at the end. That's why it repeats in Jedi.
You're confusing people making this one product, Star Wars 1977 with George always planning on telling a larger story. The actors have no say in shit and even if George didn't know if people would like, it was always his intention.
This is the most basic background info about Star Wars, how can you not know this? Fucking retard.
>>64204964
if everyone but you is confused about what happened in a movie, that means its bad writing. thats what everyone is complaining about in the first place moron
>>64204870
>It wasn't called IV till the prequels.
This is b8
>>64204858
>And his mental state after killing his father?
You mean focused? He was only conflicted over the decision. Once he made the choice, there was no further conflict.
>>64205058
yeah its almost as if that kid grew up to be the guy that conquered the entire galaxy what a load of shit he should have been a weak beta nerd
>>64205015
I never said probably, don't put words in my mouth.
It's basic reasoning. If you put on a coat and found a handful of change in there but no coin was newer than 2005 that doesn't mean you necessarily haven't worn it since 2005.
Chewie's costume was sub par, below OT level.
BB-8's sound effects sounded like something out of a Star Wars themed Saturday Night Live skit.
Steal the Falcon and the very first person you run into in the infinite vastness of outer space is Han Solo. (inb4 hurr homing beacon.. it's outer space not the south side of Chicago)
Guy that PLAYS gollum has cgi character that looks exactly like gollum
Supremely forgettable score...by far the worst in the entire seven film series..
....and oh yeah, the main character is a fucking huge Mary Sue that can fight, use the force and pilot a spaceship better than anyone else without any training or any explanation whatsoever.
>>64204975
The "rules" are the expectations set by the previous films, and their violation is the entire subject of this thread, on all sides. If Rey conformed to the expectations of a SW in-universe hero, there would be no thread, no replies, and nothing to talk about.
Which foreign language has the semantic distinction between "commonly asserted and agreed upon conventions" and the single word "rules" so far apart that you and the other anon, and the third anon in the other thread have all gotten hung up on it in exactly the same way?
Russian? Portuguese?
>>64205090
Kylo Ren was obviously incompetent at half the shit he tried to do, or are you forgetting the fact that he had to have vents on his special snowflake lightsaber because he made it all retarded? And how the fuck is it grasping at straws? You still seem to think that picking up a stick and bashing someone with it is somehow radically different than picking up a laser stick and bashing someone with it, let alone bashing someone who was literally going easy on her because he wanted to train her in the force/take her to Snoke to be trained. Or are you just gonna keep ignoring that last part so you can keep autistically screaming Mary Sue because your prom date bailed on you in high school or whatever?
>>64205259
>Guy that PLAYS gollum has cgi character that looks exactly like gollum
looked more like bolg
>>64205080
>>64205080
You seem to have gotten lost on your way to:
>>>/pol/
>>64205244
You were claiming some sort of equivalence which didn't exist. We see Luke grow throughout the trilogy. The whole point in him using the mind trick in Jedi is to demonstrate how much he'd grown since Empire.
>>64204944
Kylo is so shitty that Snoke looks like an idiot for even training him. We can't have powerful villains anymore thanks to feminism.
>>64205285
>Kylo-Ren
>leader of the Knights of Ren
>handpicked by Snoke because of his vast powers
>Bested Luke Skywalker
You can call Kylo-ren alot of things, but incompetent is definitely not one of thm.
You tried dialing marysue up to 11, that backfired, now you're trying to dial down Kylo to some abysmal number so your literal who's story line and powers can somehow make sense
>>64205285
not that guy but at the end of the day you are still saying Kylo was somehow worse than Rey which is a load of shit. The moment kylo started losing he should have choked her out or thrown her back up a tree like he did at the start of the fight. He may have been a shit lightsaber duelist, but he was exceptionally good at using the force.
>>64205410
Kylo was a good character in a weak movie and should never have lost that fight.
>>64205405
>>64205410
>leader of the Knights of Ren
>implying we've seen them at all and we know shit about shit when it comes to how good they are
>implying he's not just the leader because of his bloodline anyway
I literally never said that he's worse than her, you're reading shit that's not there. And you're both still ignoring the part where he's going easy on her, literally proving my point about you spergs.
>>64205395
I know reading is hard, sometimes I pretend to understand what's going on too.
>>64205523
Considering the Knights of Ren beat down Luke Skywalker, and then they chose Kylo to represent them, would be a pretty good indicator of power
Or did you leave for the restroom when mary sue had her rape flashbacks?
>>64197391
Did Rey have a sex change? Because they very clearly mention "a boy turned and murdered everyone"
>>64204375
The Force is metaphorical causality made literal.
>>64205565
>rape flashbacks
>I'm injecting my anti-SJW agenda into everything because I'm autistic
>I'm still ignoring the going easy on her part because I'm autistic
>>64205536
You said that Luke might have been able to use the mind trick in Empire. Are you retracting that statement?
>>64204870
>It wasn't called IV till the prequels
>>64205606
It really isn't. Point out any event that couldn't have happened if the force did not have a will.
I don't get people saying she had no training with a lightsaber. I mean, she had basic fighting skills with her staff and the force helped her out.
>>64205523
>never said that he's worse than her
you said hes incompetent and she did win the fight. Id say that means she is better than him and he is worse than her. Are you trying to say that he is somehow completely 100% above her power level and losing to her in a fight was a disastrous fluke?
>hes just going easy on her
>kylo starts losing and getting injured
>continues to go easy on her and lets her escape because hes going easy on her
thats retarded. if he was truly stronger than her, the moment he started to lose he would have turned the fight around. Oh no shes swinging her lightsaber really hard? Force push her away like you did at the start of the fight. Thats all he had to do. Its something he already could do 5 minutes ago, but for some bullshit reason he couldnt do it again.
>>64201811
>he even posted one in his fucking reaction image
I don't think Dredd is a woman
>>64205658
It really is. And it depends entirely on what you mean by will. I've said numerous times that the Force is not a magical sky wizard in the image of man. The will of the Force is balance, and it works through the denizens of the galaxy when the balance has been skewed. To ask which is the actor and which the acted upon is a question of no meaning. It's destiny, ain't gotta explain shit.
>>64205671
Don't forget he could force-knock out
And force choke
And force pull
It's almost like Kylo-Ren, the adept at the forcce, was for some reason, being written off as a retard with a lightsaber at the last minute
>>64205671
You retarded nigger he was literally talking to her and trying to convert her to the dark side and the fight was ended by fucking forces of nature, I'm honestly convinced that Kylo Ren was written to be a stand-in for sperging faggots like you the way you people defend him.
>>64205752
"Will" implies awareness and choice. If those don't exist, then it's just shit happening.
>>64205727
Mary Sue just means OP character, unless you're being a pedantic autist and wanted me to say Gary Stu instead.
>>64205775
>retard with a lightsaber
Honestly he was acting like it for a lot of the movie.
>>64205814
It can be "aware" of events and "choose" to interfere without being something so banal as to resemble the human mind. "Will" is just the word we apply to it.
>>64205863
>Mary Sue just means OP character
NO IT FUCKING DOESN'T
>>64205880
Then please point out a single scene in which it is clear the force is aware or chooses to interfere.
I'm willing to except her Jedi powers depending on the direction the future movies take.
What I don't like is they they took Leia, Han, and Luke, and made one character to fill all of those roles. Its like fan fiction sonic x disney tier writing in my opinion.
Meanwhile, Poe is a non-character and Finn is just a confused guy who is sort of alright at fighting and shooting but doesn't really bring much to the table.
>>64205863
Your line above was
>for some reason he's only assblasted about the woman in Star Wars
So that train of thought carries into the next section.
>>64205799
you are retarded. way to ignore my post. I already acknowledged that he was trying to convert her. If he was going easy on her and in complete control the entire time, why would he allow himself to be hurt? Why would getting separated by the rift even matter when he already demonstrated that he can force pull people to him?
conceal your hate for autistic nerds for a minute and use your fucking brain
>>64205918
In the context everybody's using it in now? It kinda does. I don't think these people are saying that Rey was written to be a stand-in for Jew Jew Abraham.
>>64205949
Except for the part where him going easy on her should have ended the fucking debate, she's clearly not better than him because we haven't seen him fight his hardest.
>why wouldn't he have pulled her to him to continue the fight when the planet was about to fucking explode
GEE GOLLY I WONDER
>>64205925
It's not clear. That's the point. It's ultimately mysterious and unknowable, which is why there's a story to begin with. That was intentional on Lucas' part. You have to harmonize with the Force to use it properly and the characters that do this are the good guys attempting to balance the Force. The bad guys who use the Force basically harness their emotion and overpower it, forcing it to conform to their will and do shit they ain't supposed to do.
If you're looking for explicit confirmation you won't find it because, again, that's the whole damn point. The Force isn't an actual character. But given what we know from the movies and what Lucas has said it's pretty fucking obvious. Shit happening=Destiny.
Now feel free to call it a horrible waste of time.
>>64206256
It's not a waste of time, it's barely even featured as an idea in the movies outside of a throw away line or two. It's a shitty excuse given to justify awful writing and character development, and that's why I was calling bullshit on it.
>>64197113
what? when?
>>64206387
Whatever you say man, I think it's all very fascinating. These kinds of debates either heighten your enjoyment of the source material or they don't. You sound like the latter, so I recommend you just move on and find something that do you enjoy instead. Life's too short to worry about what a bunch of idiots on the internet are saying.
It's the fundamental problem of casting women as leads in these kinds of things.
You can't show an audience a woman being beaten to a pulp because they don't want to see that.
>>64206216
why would he allow himself to be hurt if he was going easy on her and in total complete control the entire time? why wouldnt he start fighting for real the moment he realized going easy on her was not working? you have avoided this question multiple times now. that has been my argument the entire time, and you are ignoring it to spout "no ur autistic nerd lmao"
he was not going easy on her after her force "awakened" and she did overpower him. I think that is horrible writing for a character that has no backstory whatsoever to beat a character that was apparently the best at jedi school and killed all the other students. She needed to be explained more or should have been weaker.
>>64206476
There is no debate. As you just said in your previous post, there is no evidence. You're just inventing excuses that do nothing except justify shitty writing.
The original trilogy didn't require this. It stands on it's own. Only in the prequel trilogy and Episode 7 do you have to do this destiny/will of the force asspull to justify what's happening on screen.
Get some hemorroid cream, OP. It's no big deal.
>>64206580
You're sperging about specific choices a character made during 30 seconds of a fight in a Star Wars movie, I'm gonna call you an autistic nerd because someone needs to do it.
Your entire argument is centered around Kylo Ren not making perfect choices in a fight where he's wounded, emotional, and going easy on her. Would the movie have been better if he just waved his hand and knocked Rey and Finn out with the force? Wouldn't that strike you as a bit overpowered and too perfect? What's the name for characters like that, again?
>>64206665
Nah, it's just too esoteric for you apparently. Ah well, what is to be done for one who's grasp of storytelling is so limited?
>>64206764
There's nothing esoteric at all. Destiny is an incredibly basic concept. Shit happens because it must. That still doesn't excuse shitty writing.
>>64206859
>Shitty writing
What a vague concept this is. Please, tell me more.
>>64206907
Read the thread. It's full of criticisms. How you participated for so long without noticing, I've no idea.
>>64196978
>no training
Her backstory isn't completely known yet.
Your move, shitters.
>>64207002
If she was at Luke's academy, or not, the extremely limited amount of training available to a padawan, certainly not enough to prevent their slaughter, so not enough to justify Rey's later super-Jedi power levels, does not matter, nor contradict the also open possibility that
>Rey was trained because she was already saintly.
Also re-stated here
>>64197710
Top-tier pilot the first time she tries.
Knows the millenium falcon better than Han Solo
Immediately knows how to use a lightsaber and can outduel a sith
Immediately stronger in the force than said sith.
Intuitively knows how to mind trick people for no fucking reason.
Crack shot with a blaster the first time she uses one.
Even Luke struggled and got his ass kicked.
Rey is a Mary Sue who only exists to pander to feminists, Disney's new target audience.
>>64206754
The point is that he was already doing those overpowered things and conveniently doesnt do them so rey can win. Also you are right, he was emotional. Hes previous bursts of emotions sent him into a mindless rage where he destroyed everything around him. Sith/dark side users draw power from emotion, and for some reason you are trying to argue that emotions made him weaker. That is fucking retarded.
A powerful character doesnt mean they are overpowered, nor does it mean they are a mary sue/gary stu. I have been saying that Kylo was underpowered this entire time dumbass, he should have been able to beat Rey with the flick of his wrist given his backstory. Mary/gary stus are about flawless characters who are better than everyone else just because. You are a genuine retard bro
>>64207002
>youre not allowed to criticize a movie until every movie in the franchise has been released
Retarded Tbh. You can still explain a characters backstory while leaving plenty of mystery. Its bad writing to set the movies up like this.
>>64207221
Hail Saint Rey of the Force
>>64207240
>conveniently doesn't do them so Rey can win in a fight he was deliberately going easy on her with
>win the fight that was ended by the fucking ground splitting between them because the planet was about to explode
>sadness over killing his dad is the same as being angry and would affect him the same way because all emotions are the same lmao
>backstories make characters not Mary Sues
You literally sound autistic
>>64197226
You're absolutely right, I should avoid these fucking cancerous threads.
>>64207418
>backstories make characters not Mary Sues
If there was proper explanation to why she was good at all the things she was then yes, it would make her not a Mary Sue, but her unexplained pilot skills, her unexplained weapons skills, her unexplained lightsaber skills, her unexplained force skills.
There is a lot of shit not explained and it is expected that the viewer just eats this shit up without so much as a frown.
>>64207333
INTERIOR: Disney corporate offices. DUDLEY DRONE sits before a DATABASE of CREDIT CARD NUMBERS on his APPLE computer. He frowns. SHWANDA BIOMASS happens down the row and notices his discomfort.
SHWANDA: wat be botherin you Duds? Eyeballs be barkin again?
DUDLEY: No. It's these data. Our Star Wars forecasts specifically called for plot dissonance to be a major generator of repeat views. We worked on that with research. Such and such a plot hole, of such and such an ambiguity based on the previous archetypes, occurring every such and such interval.
SHWANDA: So what's got you buggin, Duds?
DUDLEY makes karate-chop motions toward his APPLE screen.
DUDLEY: They are going back to watch Rey. Look. Look at this guy's credit card. He's seen it 12 times. He's blogged about how great it is without ever mentioning that most of it makes no sense. He doesn't even care. "A cute." What does that even mean?
SHWANDA: You all up over my head on that, Duds. So what if they like the girl?
DUDLEY stands and makes a fist at the sky. Then sits.
DUDLEY: You don't get it. research gave us iron clad guarantees that the fanbase would be self-mutilating their eyeballs watching this over and over trying to come up with explanations for hwy the whole thing is so compelling, but so non-sensical. It was our primary strategy for repeat views. But it. is. working. without. us. Don't you get it?
SHWANDA: You tryn t'say it doesn't matter what you did, people will go see it over an over no matter what?
DUDLEY buries his face in his hands. He weeps softly.
DUDLEY: Yes. [sounds of blubbery snorting] Yes. That's it exactly.
SHWANDA: Well, don worry too much. There's still the Marvel thing for next year. You still got a job, least till then.
>>64207767
>Superman isn't a Mary Sue because DUDE KRYPTON LMAO
Rey isn't written as a stand-in for Jew Jew Abraham either so if we're getting technical about it she's by definition not a Mary Sue.
>>64208044
>Rey isn't written as a stand-in for Jew Jew Abraham either so if we're getting technical about it she's by definition not a Mary Sue.
Ok, she isn't a Mary Sue just a horribly written character that is simply good at literally everything she does despite being new at pretty much all those things.
I fail to see how that is better.
>>64208044
She's a stand in for Kathleen Kennedy, the producer, or more accurately, the show runner. Her "female Jedi" pitch is what got Arndt and Abrams both on board to begin with.
>>64208044
No one would be happy with fucking Superman added to the Star Wars universe. That's what you're equating her to? Well then hopefully you understand the derision.
>>64205483
This. They had one last chance to redeem that movie, have Chewie come by and shoot his legs or some shit to give them time to escape. They fucked that up royally.
>throwing your only palpable villain under the bus for your Mary Sue
this kills the engagement
>>64205285
>the guy that their lord Emperor snoke decided to go with as his apprentice, who had sent Luke into exile and killed off the others, was "incompetent" and able to be beaten by a saber and Force newbie
What a great plot, you sold me man
>>64208094
It's the force you autist faggot, Lucas gave everyone who had anything to do with writing Star Wars an out the second he invented space magic. Just a little while ago you were arguing for Kylo Ren because he was able to do all this OP shit but not once did you try arguing that he was a shittily written character or that it was distracting from the story. Are people supposed to believe that you're not just mad because it's a woman?
>>64208309
>Just a little while ago you were arguing for Kylo Ren because
I was not that guy you blubbering idiot. Do you seriously think there is only one person in this thread that dislike Rey?
Fucking Christ.
>It's the force you autist faggot
So before she even realized she had the force it apparently helped her do all kinds of bullshit that she wasn't supposed to be able to do? Flying the Millenium Flacon like a top-class pilot despite never having touched it before even calling it a junk?
They didn't even handwave it and say the force helped her without her knowledge she just knew how to do this shit, because she knew.
How can you possibly defend that shit?
>>64208179
INTERIOR: MILLENIUM FALCON bridge. HAN looks at the readout from his navicomputer. LEIA enters over his shoulder.
HAN: This is interesting. Jor-El.
LEIA: Jor-El system?
HAN: Jor-El isn't a system. He's a man. We go way back, Jor-El and I.
..and that's how Krypton's sun got eaten by Starkiller base.
>>64208276
I won't defend Rey, but for all we know, Snoke could have dozens of potential apprentices. He couldn't even be bothered to show up in person. He directly tells Kyle that he senses too much Iight in him, and he must kill his father... Sounds almost like Yoda telling Luke he senses to much dark in him and he must kill his father. Everything rhymes.
>>64208412
Yeah, the same way Luke was able to translate bullseying womp rats with his T-13 back home into blowing up the Death Star and the same way Anakin was able to win the Boonta Eve Classic against seasoned podracers and a guy who even tried cheating. There's a precedent for it that started with A New Hope and if you don't like it, you don't like Star Wars.
>>64197592
If this was a Kubrick film I would have no issues immediately buying this theory.
>>64208487
So then the entirety of TFA would be a wash and they wasted an entire movie for lols and nostalgia pandering.
>>64196978
Personally, as an atheist with an IQ of over 150 (Trust me you would feel bad if you really knew how big it was) I just can't see the appeal to this current generation to "Movies" or as I call them films, such as the new Star Wars. If you study rockey science even a little you would not be able to stand how fake it is. Its offensive if you ask me (Which you should)
>>64205342
Stay mad, asshat
>>64196978
OP confirmed a fucking Mormon
>>64208522
>Yeah, the same way Luke was able to translate bullseying womp rats with his T-13 back home into blowing up the Death Star
He had fucking grounds for being a good pilot at least something which Rey herself said she never had.
Being able to hit a small hole with the help of the force is different from masterfully piloting a ship you have never piloted and with no piloting experience.
I'll give you Anakins podrace shit, that was silly as all hell.
>>64208736
Wow, bro, that's hilarious. Ironic shitposting, lelelel xD
I hope you shove a knife up your asshole
Rian curveball inbound
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/star-wars-8-is-going-to-be-weird-promises-screenwriter-a6788031.html
JJ shilling or truly wishes he'd stayed
http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/j-j-abrams-regrets-saying-no-to-next-star-wars-flick-115122800111_1.html
Brickbro is not going to reissue
Empire. He's going to turn this into Rome meets the Medicis.
>>64208645
Who says JJ can't do mise en scene? Besides, he was collaborating with Brickbro all the way through. Johnson is going to take this thing so sideways, it will make $1 billion on everyone going back to say thank you.
>>64208795
Dude. I don't even wear underwear.
>>64208797
He hit that small hole while he was flying, getting shot at, and without the help of his targeting computer. I personally look that as just as unlikely.
You could say that from my point of view Luke was overpowered at that point.
>>64208772
Yeah. I'm furious. This is me getting so mad I can't even put a period at the end.
>>64208922
gotta be careful without them underwear with all the demons flying about.
>>64196978
How did the first force user in history learn the tricks?
Maybe she simply is an intuitive force user, a genius.
>>64204063
>>64204563
>>64204607
Also JJ is a huge fan of Old Republic games and is advocating their canonization. And guess who is his favourite SW character,
>>64209237
Female Reven who is literally a self-insert?
>>64208841
fuck JJ
>>64196978
>>No training
She spent her entire life fighting, climbing, making a living through her knowledge of mechanical engineering, and according to the book, taught herself how to fly using flight simulators found on the crashed STar Destroyer. It's no less of a "violation" than moisture farmer Luke being THE BEST PILOT IN THE SQUADRON the second he gets in an x-wing. Much less fucking Anakin winning pod-races and destroying the Droid control ship when he was a fucking toddler. Try again.
>Here's thee thing: Rey is not "the new Luke."
Yes she is. Luke was the protagonist in the orig trig, in New Hope he was just some humble kid with a mysterious past who learned he was magic and used that magic to overcome insane odds to win the day. That's exactly the same thing Rey was.
>The OT was a tale of the trinity: Father, Son, Holy Force. The battle of who would be the true messiah, the father or the son, powered the entire OT. Resolving with a united trinity: Redeemed father, messiah son, Holy Force over-arching all.
That's one (rather weak) reading into the orig trig, and is hardly something to be accepted as story canon. Luke was some fucking kid who turned out to be magic. Vader being his father was not something that Lucas originally planned to do.
>You don't re-make a universe in which the messiah is already come.
Being this schizotypal. Stop trying to turn Star Wars into some bullshit Christian allegory. It wasn't the creator's intent at all, and you seem to not understand that Christianity wasn't the first instance of a character undergoing THE HERO'S JOURNEY. Both Anakin and Luke were seen as "The chosen one" in their trilogies, who brought balance to the force. Which is a constantly fluctuating yin and yang dynamic, much more rooted in eastern philosophy than the fucking bible. There are no messiahs and Rey isn't a fucking prophet. Way to build your whole argument on a psychotic premise that you made up.
>>64209062
Really. How did you get to "Mormon" from "Rey is a saint?"
Also, that forehead kiss is not a token of affection, it confers a force blessing upon FN. That will explain how he survives.
>>64209118
How did the first miracle worker of all time learn? God, I mean, The Force.
It's all bound up with what i think about Rian Johnson's writing ambitions, combined with the clues given, overshadowed by Disney's ambitions.
Rey is new. Novel. Her screen execution was imperfect, but the writerly intention is clear.
>>64199922
nah, there's no problem with the light in that pic, have another look more closely
>>64209302
No argument there. He had a chance to do something really special, and fucked it into a cockekd hat. A coward.
>>64209306
This has all been refuted time and time again and I no longer have the will to correct these retards.
>>64209237
Bendak Starkiller
>>64209306
No force training.
>schizotypal
Wow. Can you explain that in anglo saxon root words? How's second year going?
>>64208781
>the actress
No tits
No ass
Huge teeth
Huge head
Ugly, creepy smile
Masculine features
Squared jaw
5 head hair line
Fetal alcohol syndrome
Inbred
britbong (see above)
Couldn't drop the English accent (even Boyega could manage this)
cardboard
not as strong, memorable or as hot as Leia or Padme
>the character
Overpowered uninspired female Luke copypasta (right down to living on a desert planet)
Best pilot
Best force user
Best shooter
Best mind trick artist
Knows Solo's ship better than Solo
Gets the Falcon
Gets Luke's Saber
No flaws
Interacts with all the original characters because she's a special snow flake
Defeats the villain without hardship in the very first movie
Looks like a dirty mongoloid that sucks dick for blueberry muffin mix
Disney creation to appease feminists, tumblr, reddit and SJW's (they'll refute this, see linked replies above)
Basically, Disney has the audiences that don't have brains by the balls.
>>64209393
Sperging about one unlikely thing being better writing than another equally unlikely thing because girls won't go out with you doesn't make for a legitimate refutation
>>64209237
So how are we going to explain that "Raeh" got her name off of a random helmet (pictured here >>64209306 in Aurebesh), but turns out to be Revan? Just another off-screen fan book?
>>64209492
Don't forget that she has no background and her story is just be using as sequel bait since the entire movie is just one big 2 hour trailer.
>>64205282
In the English language, the word "rule" has a pretty concrete definition. Perhaps there are so many anons disagreeing with you because you are using the word incorrectly.
What you're really saying, apparently, is that Rey diverges from what YOU would normally expect in a star wars movie, and you don't like that.
You don't get credit for stuff you didn't put in the movie, because, and this is important... YOU DIDN'T PUT IT IN THE MOVIE.
If your movie looks like non-sensical garbage unless you read a bunch of non canon books, then your movie is shit.
>>64209306
>literal trinity
>literal resurrection
>literally not reincarnation
>"muh eastern philosophy"
>I call you names I made up
>I don't like so must be false.
That is the most work I've seen put into a shitpost this side of /lit/.
Now why is which part not right other than you mad?
Oh yeah. None of it.
>>64209393
No it hasn't. All I'm seeing is people citing marketing and stills where she has a fucking halo. Not sure if you're aware of this, but halos are a recurring symbol across ALL RELIGIONS and predates the fuck out of it's use in Christian iconography. "Homer describes a more-than-natural light around the heads of heroes in battle." Heroes have halos, Rey is the protagonist hero of the story.
As for the rest of the stupid Holy Trinity theory, it doesn't make any fucking sense at all, outside of the fact that Vader and Luke are literally father and son.
And I don't see anywhere where it's been "refuted" that The Force is in a constant state of flux. It isn't something that is fixed once and for all. It's about the stuggle to maintain balance, and that has fuck all with christianity, and is an exact literal interpretation of the eastern concept of Yin and Yang (literally translated as Light and Dark).
>>64209624
Me and every other anon in this thread. Tell us: why do you think Rey is a great character?
>>64196978
>>64209624
Also, like a shitposting troll (which you are) you completely glossed over the difference between ""commonly asserted and agreed upon conventions"" and the word "rule."
But thanks for the bump.
>>64209789
You and I both wish, anon.
>>64209736
>literal trinity
That's the fucking point. It's ONLY a literal trinity. The Father in christian ideology has no symbolic connection to Vader other than that he is LITERALLY A FATHER.
>>literal resurrection
Who was resurrected? Force ghosts aren't resurrected, and it's not at all like ghosts are exclusive to abrahamic religions.
>>"muh eastern philosophy"
See >>64209749 . Not to mention Lucas made Star Wars with constant allusions to Eastern filmmakers, particularly Kurosawa.
Not to mention THAT THE FORCE BEING COMPOSED OF 2 CONTRARY SIDES THAT ALSO COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER IS THE EXACT CONCEPT OF YIN AND YANG.
>Now why is which part not right other than you mad?
Learn how to words. Take your meds.
>>64200743
>some force shit going down
is this going to be the defense of every pants on head retarded thing that happens in this trilogy?
>>64209454
So what about Leia sensing Luke multiple times with no training at all? Is that bullshit too?
>>64209736
>That is the most work I've seen put into a shitpost this side of /lit/.
And the fact that you wasted a lot of time on your misguided reading into a fantasy sci-fi series doesn't make you more correct. Your entire argument is built on a sketchy-at-best interpretation of Star Wars being a biblical parable. The fact that there were some vague allusions to christianity (as well as a lot of other religions) doesn't mean it is a literal reinterpretation of the bible.
>>64210134
Yes because people will bitch about midichlorians taking the magic out of the force one second and bitch about it being too magic the next
>>64202012
>implying the length of days is the same on every different planet the characters go to
> not accounting for travel time?
>do you even astrophysics?
>>64210044
>>64210185
>>64210275
On behalf of the Disney Corporation, I would like to thank you, and all the anons involved here, for getting this thread to the bump limit, and thereby assuring my bonus for the day.
>>64209775
Oh you mean all these anons picking apart your shit tier fanfic theory? Also,tell me: where did I say that I think Rey is a great character?
>>64209845
No actually that difference is exactly what I addressed. You're asserting that Rey breaks the "rules" of the SW universe. You literally said exactly that word. Im pointing out that you are using the word rule when you really mean that you disagree with how the character was designed and it hurts your feelings.
>>64209736
>>64209306
>>64196978
>>64210185
Just for clarity, let me rephrase why your argument is retarded. Your argument is that Rey being super-Force Sensitive and managing to succeed in the film where she's a protagonist is "violating the fucking rules of the universe." Then the majority of your argument is then based on your understanding of THE RULES OF CHRISTIANITY.
Even if you weren't off the mark with your Christian allegory interpretation, you're still unambiguously citing your fan theory as the only evidence to support your argument.
You're not citing evidence that can actually be determined from in-universe context or production history. When you have to use your speculative opinion as the only support for your argument, you're failing as a critic and as a rational person.
The reality is that all 3 of the Star Wars trilogy protagonists overcame impossible odds in the first film of their respective trilogies, as they became Force aware. Nothing Rey did in any way "violates the rules" of the universe when compared to Luke or Annakin's "awakening" episodes.
The reality is that Lucas said since the early 80's that he envisioned the Star Wars story being 3 trilogies, 9 episodes, and 3 generations. So your idea that you "don't re-make a universe in which the messiah is already come" doesn't fit with THE CREATOR'S ORIGINAL INTENT. There was always going to be another protagonist, another Luke, another fucking "messiah." The entire idea that they already did "the holy trinity" doesn't work when you actually consider actual factual evidence that exists outside of your fucking head.
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/rzrs4Qi.jpg "latest[1]")
